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On July 04 2012 16:24 Eviscerador wrote:
Saying that a mirror MU needs balancing seems like the weirdest thing ever.
ZvZ is the only mirror where you can chose from a wide range of BO at start and win. Also is the funniest MU if you have balls of steel (and crazy hands)
By balancing he was more meaning to make it more fun and what not. Say PvP for example, toss nerfed the warp gates (the 2nd time not the first time in beta) to try and stop 4 gate pvp as that was literally all pvp was. They nerfed the pylon radius a little bit to but I can't remember if that was to try and fix hi ground 4 gating in PvP.
Just by rebalancing they mean to make it more fun and not just 1 strategy is all you can do.
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On July 04 2012 13:55 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 13:15 SupLilSon wrote:On July 04 2012 08:12 sekritzzz wrote:On July 04 2012 07:47 SupLilSon wrote:On July 04 2012 06:09 sekritzzz wrote:On July 04 2012 05:19 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote:
Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago. except that about 8-10 months ago he predicted exactly what zvp would look like now. Right in the middle of all the haters and qqers. What did he actually predict about the the state of ZvP? 8-10 months ago, the only thing I remember is him whining about Collusus death balls and jamming roach/hydra on them, and him discrediting good players because of their race (ex: Idra calling Morrow a Gold-level player if he didnt play the abusive race of terran.) So really... I don't blame people if they dont take idra seriously when it comes to the state of a match up or balance issues. IdrA has shown countless times that despite performance, his analysis of the game is top notch. He expounded on the need for the ovie buff a year before Blizz finally implemented it. MorroW has not won anything since switching to Zerg from Terran.. If you've seen any of his casting, it is on par if not above Artosis and Day9 in terms of analytical value. Not to mention, his performance vs. Koreans is among the best for foreigners, despite all the hate he gets. Sorry but most people consider Morrow way more succesful than Idra as a zerg player, in terms of skill at least, not PR/popularity. Not to mention, each persons record speaks for itself Morrow 51% win rateIdra 33% win rateAs far as the ovie buff call a year ago.... really? You're picking at straws now. If you haven't noticed almost 50% of the units in sc2 got buffed/nerfed so it isn't hard to notice which units need buffs/nerfs. A far more amazing thing is to hear a pro-gamer predict the metagame before it happens. That shows he is ahead of the curve. I love the lengths IdrA haters will go to to legitimize their claims. It's funny how they consistently throw critical thinking out the window. One look at IdrA's recent opponents compared to MorroW's recent opponents tells a totally different story from simply posting arbitrary percentages. And as far as the ovie buff goes, I'd agree that it was picking at straws if IdrA didn't give essentially the same reasoning for the buff as Blizzard did. I'm not responding to you, I'm responding to the guy you quoted... Morrow doesn't play ZvZ, PERIOD.
I wasn't responding to you either O.o I know that MorroW race picks Terran vs Zerg.
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I love ZvZ, it's the only matchup that zerg players can show really good micro in, it is perfectly balanced, there is a lot of room for risk taking and there are a variety of styles. I don't really enjoy watching ZvZ but I like playing it.
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idra should go to bed, he isnt any more qualified to talk about matchups than avilo
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51481 Posts
So EG just released every tactic in ZvZ IdrA uses....hmmm lol? How his mind works in ZvZ etcetc 0.O
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Now ZvZ is awful again? Nobody told me.
I like watching the matchup and I like playing it, very entertaining and very tense. Sad to see mutas fade out but I'm happy about these ling infestor styles that have become very popular. Plus Zerg players are inherently awesome human beings  .
Cool to hear Greg's thoughts, thanks for the article!
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ZvZ is for me better than TvT. The only problem with it is that ZvZ was not played in the first year of GomTvT, and therefore not developed at all. But I have seen some insanely epic ZvZ where no mistakes were made and then can go on for forever, while giving much more action than a TvT.
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Not sure what they could do to balance ZvZ to make it not suck to play or watch. Since zerg units are pretty boring units.
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step 1)
everybody whines about SC2 being too boring and not dynamic enough
step 2)
“It’s too dynamic" , the essence of idra's message
step 3)
people stop complaining and actually try develop this game
step 4)
ESports wins
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Why are people always so angry in idra threads?
Someone asks the guy for his thoughts on the zvz metagame, and he says his thoughts in an interview. You guys act like he's saying he's absolutely right about everything and that he's the best zvz in the world.
Honestly...
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It's definitely a matchup that can completely change on a dime, far more so than any other imo. A single bling hit can mean the difference between a win or a loss.
I finally have a build I like in this matchup, but getting to use it... That's the trick. Need me a solid opener and some micro practice.
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i hate zvz...can't withstand it...would rather have real knife fight than to play zvz
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On July 04 2012 18:49 Kotreb wrote:
i hate zvz...can't withstand it...would rather have real knife fight than to play zvz
Sure you didn't had any knife fight in real life. Because the idea is the same, but the blood and pain (and even life) is yours.
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Loved this article, really nice overview of the current overall understanding of the matchup, and where we still need to learn about the matchup.
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On July 04 2012 16:52 elis wrote:
idra should go to bed, he isnt any more qualified to talk about matchups than avilo
why are you even talking? if Idra's not qualified to talk about the matchup u're not "qualified" to open your mouth.
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On July 04 2012 16:52 elis wrote:
idra should go to bed, he isnt any more qualified to talk about matchups than avilo
You should go to bed, you're being an ignorant idiot. Idra is a really smart player, he has more game knowledge, and he is smarter about the game than most foreigners I think. Pretty much all of what he says in the article is pretty spot on if you care to read it. The fact that you compare Avilo to Idra in terms of match up understanding is fucking hilarious to me btw XD
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On July 04 2012 21:47 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 16:52 elis wrote:
idra should go to bed, he isnt any more qualified to talk about matchups than avilo You should go to bed, you're being an ignorant idiot. Idra is a really smart player, he has more game knowledge, and he is smarter about the game than most foreigners I think. Pretty much all of what he says in the article is pretty spot on if you care to read it. The fact that you compare Avilo to Idra in terms of match up understanding is fucking hilarious to me btw XD
i think you are the ignorant idiot for not realizing how bad idra is at this game, his ego is way too large relative to his skill. i think its hilaious how he tells other people their opinion is trash and not worth listening to when he has a 33% winrate in 2012.
"XD"
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On July 04 2012 05:17 CrtBalorda wrote:
I have my hopes up that ZvZ evolves into something more the what it was in brood war, and then it might actully be an interesting matchup.
I want it to be on the same level of fun and fairnes as PvP and TvT.
I'm not quite sure that I would say PvP is the definition of fun and fairness. I do think TvT has developed nicely though. I will say, as far as ZvZ is concerned, I agree with the OP that even though the matchup can feel incredibly frustrating at times, winning can feel extremely rewarding, because there are so many things that can (and often do) go wrong in a single match of ZvZ.
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My guess is the real reason idra hates zvz is because u have to micro units something he can't do and zvz is the one match for zergs where holding a push doesn't just come down to holding by having more stuff with Econ behind it to get zergs powerful late game compostions. Control your banelings better, micro roaches back better, fungal better means u win zvz... idra is inferior to most top zergs in this area
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EPT
