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On January 09 2012 12:36 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 12:23 Drowsy wrote:On January 09 2012 11:41 peidongyang wrote:
when i see rainbow stream for 14 hours straight i realize why koreans are so much better
fucking worth ethic is ridiculous most foreigners cant even do 7 hours a day... I think this sums it up. A 50-60 hour week would be pretty light for some of these koreans. What amaze me is that someone with a brain can purposefully put 50 to 60 hours a week into a job. I don't think that's something to be praised at all. I would even dare to use the world pseudo-slavery to define their situation. It's alot comparable to the situation of kids training for sumotori in Japan.
Haven't you done a few 50+ hour weeks at something in your life (lol France)? Studying or a job? Almost everyone I know has for some period of time even if it was only temporary. I wouldn't be surprised if guys like Flash average ~70hrs/wk if they're a month away from a big tourney or something. 60+ hours a week of practicing starcraft sounds infinitely better than 40 hours at a meatpacking plant or outdoor construction in a harsh climate.
Well... this is kind of speculation, but you can get a rough idea by bnet profile match histories and stream channels with timestamp+date of just how much the best Koreans are practicing compared to the best foreigners.
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On January 09 2012 12:36 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 12:23 Drowsy wrote:On January 09 2012 11:41 peidongyang wrote:
when i see rainbow stream for 14 hours straight i realize why koreans are so much better
fucking worth ethic is ridiculous most foreigners cant even do 7 hours a day... I think this sums it up. A 50-60 hour week would be pretty light for some of these koreans. What amaze me is that someone with a brain can purposefully put 50 to 60 hours a week into a job. I don't think that's something to be praised at all. I would even dare to use the world pseudo-slavery to define their situation. It's alot comparable to the situation of kids training for sumotori in Japan.
If they are passionate about improving and being competitive, what is the problem? Many of them choose progaming over university because they love the game. How can you disrespect that? It's not like they are flipping burgers for 50 hours.
I think the foreign bias is pretty embarrassing. Just the fact that the rest of the world besides korea is clumped into one group should tell you something.
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On January 09 2012 11:09 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. IPL3, MLG Orlando, MLG Global Invitational, Dreamhack (not the latest one, though), TSL3 and a bunch of other high prestige tournaments all wanted to say hi.
IPL3
1st stephano
2nd korean
3rd korean
4th korean
overall breakdown
ro32 14/32 koreans 43.75%
ro16 10/16 koreans 62.5%
ro8 5/8 koreans 62.5%
MLG Orlando
1st HuK
2nd korean
3rd korean
4th idra
5th korean
6th korena
7th korean
8th korean
Dreamhack Summer
1st HuK
2nd korean
3rd korean
4th korean
note: only 3 koreans in this tournament but they took top 4 placings
Dreamhack Valencia
1st korean
2nd ThorZaIN
3rd korean
4th korean
note: again only 3 koreans and all took top 4 placings
i give it to you for TSL3 where koreans placed like shit. but its an online event not LAN.
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On January 09 2012 12:41 teacash wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 12:04 jj33 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +the excuses never stop.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have been as much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented. HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. I posted that before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight.. Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners" get outta here with that junk
touchy there huh because the truth hurts.
excuses all around.
No strawman argument. MLG providence had TONS of top foreigners and koreans dominated hard.
so in actuality you are speculating on how HOmestory would have went if some other foreigners were there, but in reality koreans dominated. And they have shown they can dominate no matter how many top foreigners are in a tournament.
People said Stephano/nerchio/dimaga weren't at MLG providence and other tournaments they did not attend, now that they were in a tournament, they make excuses.
Nice try, I'm not pitting anyone against anything, the people who keep bringing up foreigners vs Koreans, you should talk to them then.
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Nice compilation of data, thanks OP.
Not really encouraging though...  I had decided that Ret should win this, but it didn't really happen. 
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On January 09 2012 12:36 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 12:23 Drowsy wrote:On January 09 2012 11:41 peidongyang wrote:
when i see rainbow stream for 14 hours straight i realize why koreans are so much better
fucking worth ethic is ridiculous most foreigners cant even do 7 hours a day... I think this sums it up. A 50-60 hour week would be pretty light for some of these koreans. What amaze me is that someone with a brain can purposefully put 50 to 60 hours a week into a job. I don't think that's something to be praised at all. I would even dare to use the world pseudo-slavery to define their situation. It's alot comparable to the situation of kids training for sumotori in Japan.
I studied for my PhD qualifying exam for 60-70 hours a week for 6 months. I guess that's pseudo-slavery, eh? Devoting yourself to something because you care a lot about it?
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I don't get how anyone can think foreigners are even close to Koreans nowadays. Top foreigners can't beat low to mid Code S Koreans and can't touch guys like Mvp. The gap is 100x more than it was in beta/release.
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On January 09 2012 12:41 teacash wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 12:04 jj33 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +the excuses never stop.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have been as much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented. HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. I posted that before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight.. Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners" get outta here with that junk
I agree with you, but you should understand that your position is not what the original post is about. There are many people that DO pick sides and the predominant one is 'foreigners are awesome'. If you read any of the hype for HSC (or been on team liquid at all really) you would realize this.
It would be awesome if someone would gather together in one place a list of embarrassing hyped predictions that fall terribly off the mark and are conveniently forgotten about in time for the next set of predictions. When you make predictions based on hope and not evidence you should end up looking silly the majority of the time. When predictions are so horribly contradicted by reality it exposes underlying bias and this thread does a great job of bringing it to light.
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On January 09 2012 12:41 teacash wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 12:04 jj33 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +the excuses never stop.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have been as much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented. HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. It was glaringly obvious to me before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that all foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight.. Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners" get outta here with that junk
It wouldnt be internet w/o hyperbole.
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There are a select few foreigners who certainly have the ability to over-take the Koreans if they worked on their weaknesses. Eg:
Naniwa: Decision making: He made sooo many terrible decisions in the Blizzard Cup 2011 which threw him away many already won games. MLG Providence Finals FFE every game? =/ Naniwa needs to be more unpredictable, especially in a BO series. With that being said, there are times when I watch Naniwa play and he just looks unstoppable (Providence semi finals), and once he works on his consistency to keep this high level of play up, he will reign supreme.
Idra: Mentality: Calling games early, and being demoralised after losing. He is known to lose a BO series if he loses the first game. Idra has to understand that more often than less, his opponent is also making mistakes and not to call a game early just because he himself didn't play a "perfect game". Idra has the macro of a legend and decent enough micro, once he fixes his mindset, he will go very far.
Huk: Lifestyle: You can see it on his face, he hardly gets much sleep. I believe the night before the recent up & down matches for Code S/A, he went to a party, ultimately losing and being demoted to Code A. Huk has the playstyle and attitude of a champion, he just needs to work on his health and well-being.
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Bloody hell topics like these are stupid...
In any foreigner tournament you're only going to be getting officer class Koreans competing.
When people say oh only 12% of the people invited were Koreans yet they make up 75% of the top 8 let's actually analyse that.
Did anyone SERIOUSLY expect say... JYP to get knocked out by Destiny or IncontroL?
Ret and Thorzain had shambolic tournaments, Stephano wasn't much better and looked totally off form both days.
Bling could have forced JYP in to a three way time breaker in the original group stges but for one mis control.
Hasuobs and KawaiiRice didn't do too great, but considering Kawaii said it took him 16 hours to get there the day before he played in groups it's fairly reasonable?
When MVP and NesTea were really out of shape last time they travelled to a foreign tourney they both lost to Naniwa and then nearly both got kicked out of by HayprO who proceeded to crash out of dreamhack and HSC.
If there were a vote before the tournament asking which two foreigners would get through to the ro8 i'm pretty sure Dimaga and Nerchio wouldn't have been the two most people chose. By the same token if people had to vote on which Korean they thought wouldn't make it through to the ro8 I don't think most people would have picked HerO.
People try to read far, FAR, FAAAAR to much in too tournaments like this.
There were a few very good foreigners there that have performed well for an extended period of time and would also considered to be on top of their current game. Of that small bunch a large portion also had a really BAD tournament.
Against some of the best Korea has to offer Goody almost beat out two koreans in bio TvP to get out of his group. If he'd have won one more game he'd have knocked either Real or JYP out. Would anyone have predicted that pre-tournament?
Anyone who thinks Foreigners can compete with Koreans is flat out wrong, they completely dominate in their own country (where I highly expect Sen to get smacked down to Code A in a few hours) and win almost every foreign tournament where they send their "A" grade competitors to.
IPL3 and MLG Raleigh are the only really massive events where officer class Koreans have gone over and haven't managed a win (I don't count the Global Invitational with four competitors in two best of threes...)
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thanks for stating the obvious.
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The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in?
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On January 09 2012 12:36 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 12:23 Drowsy wrote:On January 09 2012 11:41 peidongyang wrote:
when i see rainbow stream for 14 hours straight i realize why koreans are so much better
fucking worth ethic is ridiculous most foreigners cant even do 7 hours a day... I think this sums it up. A 50-60 hour week would be pretty light for some of these koreans. What amaze me is that someone with a brain can purposefully put 50 to 60 hours a week into a job. I don't think that's something to be praised at all. I would even dare to use the world pseudo-slavery to define their situation. It's alot comparable to the situation of kids training for sumotori in Japan.
lol Frenchmen... do they ever do anything but protest and give up? okay, maybe they drink wine once in a while too... sigh
Foreigners performed 100% better than I expected when I saw the second round groups. I expected 1 out of 8 in the top 8, but voila, there were twice as much. Congrats and keep up the good work.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Who cares if idrA/huk/etx weren't there? Because guess what! Neither were MVP/mma/drg/etc! As if Stephano tZ and Ret aren't top foreigners. Stop making excuses
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On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote:
The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in?
The five invited Koreans were:
MC (Code S)
MKP (Code S)
JYP (Code S)
HerO (Code A)
ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean)
The qualified Koreans were:
Sound (Who won a qualifier essentially as hard if not harder than the old Code A system)
Violet (Who won THIS qualifier: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HomeStory_Cup/4/US_Qualifier)
There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset.
Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so...
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I mean, it's expected for Koreans to do well at any foreign tournament, but like it's been said in this thread - most games went down to the wire in a game 3 of a Bo3 where a korean favorite might have been knocked out. It was an enjoyable tournament through and through, and while no foreigner made the top 4, plenty of them showed great games.
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Think Nerchio just played poorly but Dimaga actually had those games....
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On January 09 2012 10:58 Fionn wrote:
Koreans are better than foreigners.
Shock, awe and jaw drops commence.
All I have to say to a lot of people is, "I told you so"
I remember back in the day, a lot of people thought that foreigners would be better because mechanics were easier, and foreigners were "better at strategy", therefore "Korean robots" would no longer survive.
And now we all know that's bullshit and just shows how racist we were or still are.
Sure the disparity might be smaller, but comparitively Idra being on the CJ B-team, Nony's courage run, Leg/Android in 2005, etc would suggest that its not much different considering almost nobody played professional BW. Who knows what would have happened if we had the same kind of support back in 2009. Would Nony be on the BW A-team and have televised games, probably, he was definitely in the running for it until he had to go back to the US.
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On January 09 2012 13:41 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote:
The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in? The five invited Koreans were: MC (Code S) MKP (Code S) JYP (Code S) HerO (Code A) ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean) The qualified Koreans were: Sound (Who won a qualifier essentially as hard if not harder than the old Code A system) Violet (Who won THIS qualifier: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HomeStory_Cup/4/US_Qualifier)There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset. Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so...
Look at what you quoted "S-class players with a few notable exceptions"
MC/MKP are the exceptions presumably. This is JYP's first season in Code S and just barely eeked it out in up/down. He needs to prove himself in Code S before being considered S-class. Hero has never done well in Code S. Violet dropped out of Code A several seasons ago. So yes, most of them are not Code S-class players except a couple of exceptions.
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EPT
