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To be honest, any of the Code-S or top koreans can win any SC2 league against even the best foreigners.
So this OP is kinda moot and given.
If there is anything noteworthy in HSC4 that I think is strategically genius and clever
and that analysts and players alike should pay good attention to is this:
Notice is how MC excellently paced himself.
He cruised the in the stages before the finals, winning just enough but never really doing some stomping.
At the group stages, his match record is 2-1 (game record: 4-3 [socke 2-1, stephano 2-0, mkp 0-2])
He then 3-0s Nerchio but still nothing like doing it with pure pwnage intent
Then JYP takes him to game 5 (3-2) with games 1-4 very close, and then he unleashes it in game 5.
But in the finals, wow! Boy did he bring it all! 4-0 Sound with just pure pwnage everywhere.
I think he was carefully concealing some tricks and his true skills so other players will misjudge him.
In the finals, most of his build were the same earlier in the tournament, but they were perfectly tighter and down to the last millisecond and his control was just more deliberate. Good metastrategy I guess.
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Meh. Im not making excuses. I coulda forseen this...
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Heres hoping for the foreigners at the next GSL, GL!
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On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote:
Violet, MKP are former code S, MKP is currently code A
This is inaccurate. MKP defeated Boxer in 2011 in final bracket of Nov GSL Code A to return back to Code S.
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United States15275 Posts
The problem with the usual comparisons between foreigners and Koreans is that the skill gaps between top/mid/low-tier Koreans is much smaller than those between top/mid/low-tier foreigners. The difference between Code A and Code B players boils down to luck and matchups; much of the same applies to the difference between Code A and Code S. So when people say that Stephano, HuK, and Naniwa can compete with the top Koreans, the "top Koreans" are actually a much larger pool than the top foreigners.
Most of the pro-foreigner arguments usually refer to specific tournament results, specific match results, and never address whether those results are exceptions to the general rule. In other words they assume that outliers are the standard.
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On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote:finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote:
But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft. what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD. we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain). when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
Right, man doesn't get out of a group with the two arguably best players in the world=throw out, he is trash (IdrA)
Man goes 2-2 against the best players in the whole world, only gets stopped by poor tournament formatting, plus wins back to back events against great players=Bad player (stephano)
Guy gives winner of Kong, Hero of GSTL, and runner-up to the tournament with the best players in the world a run for his money in a close 3-2 series, plus almost all-kills in GSTL=awful player who only wins by surprise. (thorzain)
I question your claim, sir.
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while it is easy to claim this as hindsight, its nothing new.
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when i see rainbow stream for 14 hours straight i realize why koreans are so much better
fucking worth ethic is ridiculous most foreigners cant even do 7 hours a day...
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Everyone saw this coming.. The foreigner field was particularly weak for a tourney of such size, without the likes of Idra, Huk, Sen, Naniwa, Morrow, Whitera et al.
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On January 09 2012 11:38 CosmicSpiral wrote:
The problem with the usual comparisons between foreigners and Koreans is that the skill gaps between top/mid/low-tier Koreans is much smaller than those between top/mid/low-tier foreigners. The difference between Code A and Code B players boils down to luck and matchups; much of the same applies to the difference between Code A and Code S. So when people say that Stephano, HuK, and Naniwa can compete with the top Koreans, the "top Koreans" are actually a much larger pool than the top foreigners.
Most of the pro-foreigner arguments usually refer to specific tournament results, specific match results, and never address whether those results are exceptions to the general rule. In other words they assume that outliers are the standard.
I agree with the first part at least, I'm not sure about the "outliers." As a whole, Koreans are better, but I think the "top" foreigners can match up with the "top" koreans at least somewhat evenly. There definitely are fewer "top" foreigners though.
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I've been saying idra is overrated for years.
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On January 09 2012 11:37 sc2guy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 10:57 YMCApylons wrote:
Violet, MKP are former code S, MKP is currently code A This is inaccurate. MKP defeated Boxer in 2011 in final bracket of Nov GSL Code A to return back to Code S.
Thanks, fixed.
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Idra and Huk would not have made that much of a difference. Stephano is currently the best foreigner and even he got stomped
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United States15275 Posts
On January 09 2012 11:42 Alryk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:38 CosmicSpiral wrote:
The problem with the usual comparisons between foreigners and Koreans is that the skill gaps between top/mid/low-tier Koreans is much smaller than those between top/mid/low-tier foreigners. The difference between Code A and Code B players boils down to luck and matchups; much of the same applies to the difference between Code A and Code S. So when people say that Stephano, HuK, and Naniwa can compete with the top Koreans, the "top Koreans" are actually a much larger pool than the top foreigners.
Most of the pro-foreigner arguments usually refer to specific tournament results, specific match results, and never address whether those results are exceptions to the general rule. In other words they assume that outliers are the standard. I agree with the first part at least, I'm not sure about the "outliers." As a whole, Koreans are better, but I think the "top" foreigners can match up with the "top" koreans at least somewhat evenly. There definitely are fewer "top" foreigners though.
Again, most pro-foreigner arguments never bother to ask whether Naniwa's wins in x tournament were exceptions and immediately assume they are representative of consistent high-level skill. For all his vaunted wins at MLG (beating a DRG who just threw up is not impressive BTW) he still fails over and over again in Code A and fell apart at the Blizzard Cup. Which results mean more?
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I heard some of the foreigners were not in best shape cause they took some days/weeks of over christmas. sc2 is very rnd and it's often the case that a worse player is able to beat a better one cause of build order wins or a lucky timing. Every player is able to beat everyone at such an event. the koreans are stronger and what is even more important they are able to play on a ver high level every game with few errors. The win was well deserved but the foreigners were not showing there A-game so the gap seemed even largen than it is i asume.
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On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote:finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote:
But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft. what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD. we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain). when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
I'm so tired of seeing newbie uneducated posts like this.
People are always so quick to just jump on whatever bandwagon there currently is in the scene. "only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG." I find these sorts of statements absolutely comical. You can judge and decide who the "best" are all you want, but it is constantly shifting. If I had told you how amazing of a player leenock is just a couple months ago (which I was, considering I'd seen him in the korean weekly) you would laugh at me and say "who is leenock? get some real koreans in there like mvp mma etc GG."
The second half of your post is just absolutely comical. "EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans." I guess you didn't watch any starcraft 2 in 2011 LOL
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There were two dissapointments to me, thorzain, and ret. Looked like they didn't practice a bit in the holidays, altough I watched alot of ret games when he was streaming, and he did look better, but that's just practice.
Also he seemed very 'behind the scenes' I he was kind of hiding and when he was on camera he looked very sad..
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For every group, in each round, all the Koreans took all the top spots except when Nerchio trumped Violet and Hero.
I do like the fact that between the three races (T/Z/P), it was pretty even all the way through though 
(http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HomeStory_Cup/4)
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maybe if our best athletes played sc2 professionally instead of football/basketball/baseball we'd have a better chance against the koreans
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MKP bring dishonorou to hi brethren
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EPT
