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On January 09 2012 11:09 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. IPL3, MLG Orlando, MLG Global Invitational, Dreamhack (not the latest one, though), TSL3 and a bunch of other high prestige tournaments all wanted to say hi.
read my post like 3 above this... and if u still can't accept the facts, just means people like u are stuck believing what u believe, like the flying spaghetti monster.
User was warned for this post
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TLADT24920 Posts
As has been stated before, the work ethics of the Koreans is far above all the foreigners and as such, we will continue to see more and more dominance as times passes until foreigners start to increase their work ethics to the same level.
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This was a good showing by the Koreans, but there were other factors as well. The statistics of the winrates between koreans and foreigners are inflated a bit by the presence of 2nd tier foreigners such as Poyo, Darkhydra, Attero, etc. Nothing against them, they are still good players capable of beating 99% of people in the community, but when they get matched up against Code S players like MC or JYP, it is probably going to be one-sided.
Some of the foreign scene best players were absent at this tournament (Idra, Huk, Naniwa, Sen), or severely underperformed (Thorzain, Stephano). Nerchio did play very well, beating Hero and Violet and losing to MC (still a very commendable performance).
Of course the Koreans are better, that is obvious. But unlike in BW, they are not invincible. Consider the last WCG, where MKP and Supernova were both knocked out earlier than expected in the tournament, and the Korean domination was not as evident. HSC 4 was just a really good tournament showing for the Koreans. We will probably see several results such as this over the coming year, but it is not impossible for foreigners to beat Koreans.
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On January 09 2012 11:09 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. IPL3, MLG Orlando, MLG Global Invitational, Dreamhack (not the latest one, though), TSL3 and a bunch of other high prestige tournaments all wanted to say hi.
Obviously 100% is silly. Closer to 80-90 percent.
Anyone look back at waxangel's preview? I knew the second I read that article that koreans would dominate this tournemnt lol.
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On January 09 2012 11:09 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. Since foreigners have won tournaments with Koreans in them in the last 12-6 months, your hyperbolic double reinforced last line is a bit silly.
hyperbole dude, hyperbole
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On January 09 2012 11:16 Abort Retry Fail wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:09 nam nam wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. Since foreigners have won tournaments with Koreans in them in the last 12-6 months, your hyperbolic double reinforced last line is a bit silly. hyperbole dude, hyperbole
Maybe he is talking about two hyperbolic chambers that were reinforced? That makes sense right?
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Goody did pretty well against Koreans, I think. 2-4, which could have easily been better with slightly better luck.
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all our good foreigner werent in that tourney, this is irrevelant.
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I think a lot of you are misunderstanding the OP. A lot of the hype beforehand, and a lot of people's predictions, said that foreigners were going to take down the Koreans. That didn't really happen. Sure, there are a lot of people claiming that "Obviously the Koreans would win" after the fact, but there were significantly fewer saying that beforehand. (Like pretty much always...) You could say that this thread is about the hope based predictions of the (foreign)-community, and the sometimes quite unreasonable foreigner bias that is the probable reason for that.
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Meh, can't really use this as a good example seeing as a lot of the top foreigners didn't actually attend this tournament. Then again, a lot of the top koreans didn't go either. Guess we'll just have to see until the next major tournament since people have all probably gotten alot better.
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Koreans own white dudes. This is nothing new and the only way it will change is if foreigners start to take their SC2 careers seriously and practice as much as the Koreans do.
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On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote:finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote:
But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft. what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD. we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain). when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
Lol are you joking? You would put naniwa who is 1-11 in GSL code A over Idra if Idra doesn't make it out of his code S group with the 2 best players in the world? Are you trying to troll, or are you just that much of an Idra hater?
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 09 2012 11:14 jpark4g wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:09 Zealously wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. IPL3, MLG Orlando, MLG Global Invitational, Dreamhack (not the latest one, though), TSL3 and a bunch of other high prestige tournaments all wanted to say hi. read my post like 3 above this... and if u still can't accept the facts, just means people like u are stuck believing what u believe, like the flying spaghetti monster.
For your information; I am an atheist and do not believe in the FSM. That you even compare the two not only insults me but your own intelligence, as well - it is apparent that several foreigners (Stephano, Idra, Naniwa and Huk immediately come to mind) are highly capable of beating top level koreans. You will notice that none of the four foreigners I listed (there are more but less consistent ones) all have multiple tournament wins in tourneys more or less packed with Koreans.
You may go ahead and claim that koreans are light years ahead of all foreigners all you like, but if you do - you're consciously overlooking major tournament wins that have gone to foreigners.
And if you do, it is you who are stuck with a belief, not me.
On January 09 2012 11:26 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote:finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG. On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote:
But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft. what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD. we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain). when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better. Lol are you joking? You would put naniwa who is 1-11 in GSL code A over Idra if Idra doesn't make it out of his code S group with the 2 best players in the world? Are you trying to troll, or are you just that much of an Idra hater?
S/he might also be factoring in Naniwa's MLG Providence #2 and his MLG Global Invitational #1 - both had MVP and Nestea in them. To my knowledge, Idra does not beat MVP or Nestea.
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I want all of you people who are foreigner biased to consider something.
Usually when Koreans participate in foreigner tournaments, they are in the minority. It is typically a handful of Koreans going up against a large number of foreigners. HSC 4 is no exception. Even in these situations, even if the Koreans aren't all top players (No on considers Violet, Sound, or Real to be "top Koreans". Even Hero's performance against Korean players is pretty lackluster and he shouldn't be considered a "top Korean". MC and MKP have proven themselves and JYP has had decent recent success.) the Koreans all typically do extremely well and are more likely than not to take gold.
However, when the situation is mirrored, when TOP foreigners are invited to Code A, where they are in the minority and Koreans, not even the best one, make up the majority, none of the top foreigners (except Huk), even comes remotely close to threatening any titles.
Koreans in minority: Koreans have great chances of winning
Foreigners in minority: foreigners have no chance of winning
Think about it.
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Cero nailed it really well. I mean, there really weren't that many of the top foreigners here, if any. I mean, who would compare Attero to MC? The only serious suprises were thorzain and Ret, who both failed majorly in group play, especially Ret, who had a pretty easy group. Nerchio and Dimaga were really the other "Almost top tier" foreigners, and I wouldn't even put them in the top tier level of foreigners. Sure, stephano exited in the round of 16, but so did Hero.
And yes, games being "closer than they look" does matter. Dimaga could have very easily defeated JYP, just as a simple example.
TLDR: You can't take the tournament and say its clear proof. If people like Huk, Idra, Naniwa, or Sen had attended and all exited in the Ro32 it would be pretty good evidence, but comparing MC, MKP, or Hero to the likes of Cloud, Goody, Destiny, or even Darkforce is wrong, and even laughable in my honest opinion. And it's not because they're korean - if you had put players like above, Huk etc in the place of MC and them, anyone would expect similar dominance.
As another example, did anyone look at IPL3 or MLG Orlando etc. and even think that Stephano would win? (Or even Huk, although Huk is pretty damn good). Now, after answering no, (at least to IPL3), did anyone NOT think a korean would take the tournament with a field like this?
Edit: My TLDR wasn't much of a TLDR. The real TLDR: Pitting top koreans against second, or third tier foreigners is a bad idea.
One other edit: By no means do I think foreigners are better. I think Koreans as a whole are definitely better, but I don't think the skill gap between the top tier foreigners and top tier koreans is nearly as high as people hype it up to be. Koreans have a lot more depth though.
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As IdrA says, foreigners are overrated WAY too easily. Koreans have always been on top and that isn't changing, sorry.
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On January 09 2012 11:26 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote:finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG. On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote:
But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft. what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD. we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain). when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better. Lol are you joking? You would put naniwa who is 1-11 in GSL code A over Idra if Idra doesn't make it out of his code S group with the 2 best players in the world? Are you trying to troll, or are you just that much of an Idra hater?
naniwa has beaten mvp, drg, and nestea twice in a best of 3. only top korean idra has beaten is bomber in mlg orlando. so... unless u wanna prove me wrong by showing me some other s class koreans idra has beaten.. YES, he is overrated just as much as any other foreigner.
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United States97276 Posts
Marineking is in code s not code a
Group G happy alive brown and mkp
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On January 09 2012 11:26 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:14 jpark4g wrote:On January 09 2012 11:09 Zealously wrote:On January 09 2012 11:05 Abort Retry Fail wrote:
Koreans are lightyears ahead of any foreigner, at least for now.
I honestly cant tell if foreigners are closing the gap since 12-6 months ago,
but 100% you can always bet Koreans will win any tournament they are on. IPL3, MLG Orlando, MLG Global Invitational, Dreamhack (not the latest one, though), TSL3 and a bunch of other high prestige tournaments all wanted to say hi. read my post like 3 above this... and if u still can't accept the facts, just means people like u are stuck believing what u believe, like the flying spaghetti monster. For your information; I am an atheist and do not believe in the FSM. That you even compare the two not only insults me but your own intelligence, as well - it is apparent that several foreigners (Stephano, Idra, Naniwa and Huk immediately come to mind) are highly capable of beating top level koreans. You will notice that none of the four foreigners I listed (there are more but less consistent ones) all have multiple tournament wins in tourneys more or less packed with Koreans. You may go ahead and claim that koreans are light years ahead of all foreigners all you like, but if you do - you're consciously overlooking major tournament wins that have gone to foreigners. And if you do, it is you who are stuck with a belief, not me. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:26 hunts wrote:On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote:finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG. On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote:
But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft. what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD. we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain). when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better. Lol are you joking? You would put naniwa who is 1-11 in GSL code A over Idra if Idra doesn't make it out of his code S group with the 2 best players in the world? Are you trying to troll, or are you just that much of an Idra hater? S/he might also be factoring in Naniwa's MLG Providence #2 and his MLG Global Invitational #1 - both had MVP and Nestea in them. To my knowledge, Idra does not beat MVP or Nestea.
i consider naniwa a better player than idra. I cant remember last when nani lost to idra.
Idra is pretty much overhyped , He left the gsl when jinro was a boss, Times have changed, people are way better now than they were before.
All it takes is like 1 terran full of mind games and idra is out /rage quitting. We know he cant win against toss and his vs Zerg is decent but not on the level of nestea/leenock/losira/drg etc.
i dont expect him to go far at all.
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EPT
