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On January 09 2012 11:47 D1C3 wrote:
I heard some of the foreigners were not in best shape cause they took some days/weeks of over christmas... The win was well deserved but the foreigners were not showing there A-game so the gap seemed even largen than it is i asume.
lol u serious? Didnt the koreans akso have a holiday break and GSL even to consider before HSC4? This is a lame excuse and a poor attitude towards excellence and competition. We should stop this kind of mentality. If you don't/can't prepare and perform at your best, don't participate man.
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I personally don't think the foreigners had their best lineup, a lot of the top foreigner players were missing. Especially those who could manage to beat Koreans. For example, kas, sase, naniwa, idra, huk, mana, morrow, sjow, etc.
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I agree with many people in this thread, there were alot of 'code b' foreigners at this event, and you couldn't compare them to 'code s' (koreans that get invites are usually the top of their respective teams/win qualifiers) koreans. I feel like it's korea favoured, but its not as one sided as HSC makes it look.
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In all fairness the best foreigners were not there. HuK won last HSC over koreans and a mlg. Similar goes for nani & idra. Not saying Koreans are not better, they are, just best foreigners are in Korea right now.
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the excuses never stop.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
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On January 09 2012 12:02 tdt wrote:
In all fairness the best foreigners were not there. HuK won last HSC over koreans and a mlg. Similar goes for nani & idra. Not saying Koreans are not better, they are, just best foreigners are in Korea right now.
Idk, I'd say stephano is at least as good as all of them atm and he didn't do very well. Plus Huk dropped to Code A so I don't know if he would repeat a similar performance.
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On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote:finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote:
But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft. what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD. we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain). when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better.
Thorzain has done well against Koreans. 3 killed in GSTL, etc.
And Idra losing against the 2 best Koreans so far would mean he can't compete with Koreans? That doesn't make any sense, half of Code S would get stomped by MVP and Nestea 0-2. Not to mention the fact that he was pretty well known in the beta and in BW, so the "nobody knew who they were" argument makes no sense.
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On January 09 2012 11:59 Eee wrote:
I personally don't think the foreigners had their best lineup, a lot of the top foreigner players were missing. Especially those who could manage to beat Koreans. For example, kas, sase, naniwa, idra, huk, mana, morrow, sjow, etc.
and i also personally believe the koerans didn't have their best lineup either. yet out of the 7 koreans present at the tournament, 6 made it to the top 8 and out of the 25 foreigners at the tournament, 2 made it to the top 8. whats ur point?
On January 09 2012 12:08 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:08 jpark4g wrote:finally, people can stop talking about how foreigners are closing the skill gap. thing is, only real top korean here was mkp and mc. people like mvp, nestea, drg, leenock, mma, etc come in, GG. On January 09 2012 11:05 hoby2000 wrote:
But in all seriousness.... HSC IV is one event. While these statistics are interesting, I want to see a couple more tournaments in 2012 before I decide to say that 2012 is going to be a Korean year of Starcraft. what...? did u just start watching sc this year? pretty sure EVERY tournament in 2011 was dominated by koreans. to be perfectly frank, only foreigners who really even have a shot a competition in the gsl are naniwa and huk. THATS IT PERIOD. we'll see how idra does in his group cuz he has like the top 2 koreans in mvp, nestea. if idra makes it out, he gets added to the above two. otherwise, throw out idra like the rest of the foriegners who only had good runnings in 2011 because no one knew who they were (stepano, thorzain). when a foreigner makes a good run, they are unknowns to the koreans. once koreans find out about them, they study them, and that person gets thrown out like the rest. truth might hurt, but faster u learn to accept it, the better. Thorzain has done well against Koreans. 3 killed in GSTL, etc. And Idra losing against the 2 best Koreans so far would mean he can't compete with Koreans? That doesn't make any sense, half of Code S would get stomped by MVP and Nestea 0-2. Not to mention the fact that he was pretty well known in the beta and in BW, so the "nobody knew who they were" argument makes no sense.
when thorzain was doing well, it was when the koreans didn't really know him too well. once a top foreigner comes about, their playstyle get studied by the koreans and most don't do too well against them afterward. stepano is a perfect example. and i already answered all the idra fan boys. if u want more detail, go back and read my posts.
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On January 09 2012 12:02 tdt wrote:
In all fairness the best foreigners were not there. HuK won last HSC over koreans and a mlg. Similar goes for nani & idra. Not saying Koreans are not better, they are, just best foreigners are in Korea right now.
These players' international results make you think they can stand on an even footing, but when you look at, say, our superstar foreigner HuK, whom everyone thinks can compete on an equal footing with the Koreans, and his results, you'll actually see that while he has a 62% international win-rate, he also has an absolutely abysmal 44% win-rate in Korea. I know we like to make fun of players like Ensnare and InCa and FruitDealer, but truth be told, even those players we scoff at have significantly higher win-percentages than HuK. (Ensnare and FD at 52%, InCa at 55%.) HuK's win-rate is at Check's level (44%) and lower than even Tester's (46%) and HongUn's (47%) by the time they dropped out. Naniwa's is ... lol, at 7%. IdrA hasn't played in Korea recently, so we'll not look at that, but I think it's safe to say that even our "best" foreigners are painfully mediocre by Korean standards.
EDIT: As clarification, I'm not necessarily comparing current skill here, but just saying that HuK and Naniwa and most of our foreign hopes have had less success than Ensnare in the GSL, which really puts it into perspective.
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I was only sad when Grubby lost his last game, this was just short of being an incredible revival tournament for him
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On January 09 2012 11:46 power-overwhelming wrote:
Idra and Huk would not have made that much of a difference. Stephano is currently the best foreigner and even he got stomped
Thank god you mentioned that. Won't somebody please think of Stephano. He's over-hyped and got cleaned this tourney. It's hard to be a fan of someone who still hasn't proven he can change with the meta-game. If he's still Top 5 foreigner by June then he's good, but we've seen players rise and fall.
On topic, koreans can stomp you in SC2 while trying to squeeze a turd out of their ass. With all the practice they do it comes second nature to them. I've heard multiple times in interviewers that foreigners saying they don't practice as much as should. One reason Dimaga always does well is he makes sure he practices at least 8 hours a day. I always look for him at tourneys.
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I remembered a time (maybe early middle of last year) when people were hyping about how the skill gap between foreigners and koreans are decreasing. Look at how wrong they were!
I often heard excuses about how in the GSL, the number of foreigners is small and hence it's unsurprising that the koreans dominate the event. However, when koreans have come to foreign tournaments, are outnumbered, but dominate the top placings.
Sometimes we see a "breakout" performance from a foreigner and people start hyping the "new foreign hope". However, the success is usually most likely due to a gimmicky playstyle that is soon figured out.
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On January 09 2012 11:41 peidongyang wrote:
when i see rainbow stream for 14 hours straight i realize why koreans are so much better
fucking worth ethic is ridiculous most foreigners cant even do 7 hours a day...
I think this sums it up. A 50-60 hour week would be pretty light for some of these koreans.
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On January 09 2012 11:59 Eee wrote:
I personally don't think the foreigners had their best lineup, a lot of the top foreigner players were missing. Especially those who could manage to beat Koreans. For example, kas, sase, naniwa, idra, huk, mana, morrow, sjow, etc.
Eh not best Koreans either (except arguably MC). No MMA, MVP, Nestea, DRG. This thread is just going to devolve into yelling though.
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The skill gap was amazingly huge i have to say, which i though was sad for ages, but i am over it now. If koreans are the best, then let it be, the skill gap is much too big now
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I don't know how you would tell if the skill gap were narrowing short of results, and let's face it, foreigners got hammered by Koreans at this tournament. I don't think that means Koreans simply outclass foreigners, but Europeans and Americans have to wear this one. It could be a particularly poor showing, especially since HSC is a tournament where everyone is encouraged to drink and party.
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On January 09 2012 12:23 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 11:41 peidongyang wrote:
when i see rainbow stream for 14 hours straight i realize why koreans are so much better
fucking worth ethic is ridiculous most foreigners cant even do 7 hours a day... I think this sums it up. A 50-60 hour week would be pretty light for some of these koreans.
What amaze me is that someone with a brain can purposefully put 50 to 60 hours a week into a job. I don't think that's something to be praised at all. I would even dare to use the world pseudo-slavery to define their situation. It's alot comparable to the situation of kids training for sumotori in Japan.
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On January 09 2012 11:19 j4vz wrote:
all our good foreigner werent in that tourney, this is irrevelant.
Mind listing the "good foreigner(s)"?
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On January 09 2012 12:04 jj33 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +the excuses never stop.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there..
All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have been as much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented.
HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. It was glaringly obvious to me before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment.
Nobody's "in denial", but nice try.
The main point is that all foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like.
Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight..
Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners"
get outta here with that junk
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On January 09 2012 12:36 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 12:23 Drowsy wrote:On January 09 2012 11:41 peidongyang wrote:
when i see rainbow stream for 14 hours straight i realize why koreans are so much better
fucking worth ethic is ridiculous most foreigners cant even do 7 hours a day... I think this sums it up. A 50-60 hour week would be pretty light for some of these koreans. What amaze me is that someone with a brain can purposefully put 50 to 60 hours a week into a job. I don't think that's something to be praised at all. I would even dare to use the world pseudo-slavery to define their situation. It's alot comparable to the situation of kids training for sumotori in Japan.
Sometimes it helps when you enjoy the job, y'know.
Nobody's holding a gun up to Rainbow's face and telling him to practice, especially since he's on ST, which basically let's its players choose their own practice schedule anyways.
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EPT
