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United States15275 Posts
On January 09 2012 13:46 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 13:41 mvtaylor wrote:On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote:
The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in? The five invited Koreans were: MC (Code S) MKP (Code S) JYP (Code S) HerO (Code A) ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean) The qualified Koreans were: Sound (Who won a qualifier essentially as hard if not harder than the old Code A system) Violet (Who won THIS qualifier: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HomeStory_Cup/4/US_Qualifier)There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset. Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so... Look at what you quoted "S-class players with a few notable exceptions" MC/MKP are the exceptions presumably. This is JYP's first season in Code S and just barely eeked it out in up/down. He needs to prove himself in Code S before being considered S-class. Hero has never done well in Code S. Violet dropped out of Code A several seasons ago. So yes, most of them are not Code S-class players except a couple of exceptions.
Hero has never been in Code S.
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On January 09 2012 12:47 jj33 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 12:41 teacash wrote:On January 09 2012 12:04 jj33 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +the excuses never stop.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have been as much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented. HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. I posted that before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight.. Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners" get outta here with that junk touchy there huh because the truth hurts. excuses all around. No strawman argument. MLG providence had TONS of top foreigners and koreans dominated hard. so in actuality you are speculating on how HOmestory would have went if some other foreigners were there, but in reality koreans dominated. And they have shown they can dominate no matter how many top foreigners are in a tournament. People said Stephano/nerchio/dimaga weren't at MLG providence and other tournaments they did not attend, now that they were in a tournament, they make excuses. Nice try, I'm not pitting anyone against anything, the people who keep bringing up foreigners vs Koreans, you should talk to them then.
MLG Providence also had MVP, Nestea, etc. and foreigners took 4 out of the top 8 spots, so...
And I think you're really not looking at the big picture; Dimaga took JYP (who is a top 3 Korean PvZer) to the 4th set and lost won games tbh. Stephano... well, I'm not a huge fan of his but he didn't play like Stephano, at all. His games were REALLY sloppy tbh, and his performance in other tournaments like Blizzard cup and the like suggest that he can compete with top Koreans. Nerchio was the only one that really got dominated, because MC was on a whole different level than him. But then again, I can't name any Zerg that I would be confident putting against MC, so it's more like "Best PvZer in the world" vs. "one of Europe's best Zergs" than top foreigner vs. top Korean.
While the Koreans definitely looked better, many of the foreigners were definitely within reach of the Korean's skills, so I think it's kind of unfair to say they got dominated. Only JYP and MC really outclassed the foreigners, and even then I'd argue that Dimaga played ridiculously well and played just as well.
Anyone that expected the Koreans to lose against this kind of opposition was crazy. I think the foreigners definitely did well, although I'm kind of disappointed with Stephano's play and Thorzain was just... wow. It's funny, I thought that if any foreigner gave the Koreans trouble it'd be those two, but they ended up both bombing out.
Oh shit, you're right. I forgot that he lost that 3rd (?) game somehow.
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On January 09 2012 13:51 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 12:47 jj33 wrote:On January 09 2012 12:41 teacash wrote:On January 09 2012 12:04 jj33 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +the excuses never stop.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have been as much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented. HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. I posted that before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight.. Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners" get outta here with that junk touchy there huh because the truth hurts. excuses all around. No strawman argument. MLG providence had TONS of top foreigners and koreans dominated hard. so in actuality you are speculating on how HOmestory would have went if some other foreigners were there, but in reality koreans dominated. And they have shown they can dominate no matter how many top foreigners are in a tournament. People said Stephano/nerchio/dimaga weren't at MLG providence and other tournaments they did not attend, now that they were in a tournament, they make excuses. Nice try, I'm not pitting anyone against anything, the people who keep bringing up foreigners vs Koreans, you should talk to them then. MLG Providence also had MVP, Nestea, etc. and foreigners took 4 out of the top 8 spots, so... And I think you're really not looking at the big picture; Dimaga took JYP (who is a top 3 Korean PvZer) to the 5th and final set and definitely looked just as good as JYP. Stephano... well, I'm not a huge fan of his but he didn't play like Stephano, at all. His games were REALLY sloppy tbh, and his performance in other tournaments like Blizzard cup and the like suggest that he can compete with top Koreans. Nerchio was the only one that really got dominated, because MC was on a whole different level than him. But then again, I can't name any Zerg that I would be confident putting against MC, so it's more like "Best PvZer in the world" vs. "one of Europe's best Zergs" than top foreigner vs. top Korean. While the Koreans definitely looked better, many of the foreigners were definitely within reach of the Korean's skills, so I think it's kind of unfair to say they got dominated. Only JYP and MC really outclassed the foreigners, and even then I'd argue that Dimaga played ridiculously well and played just as well.
It was 3-1 dimaga vs JYP.
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United States15275 Posts
On January 09 2012 13:51 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 12:47 jj33 wrote:On January 09 2012 12:41 teacash wrote:On January 09 2012 12:04 jj33 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +the excuses never stop.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have been as much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented. HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. I posted that before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight.. Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners" get outta here with that junk touchy there huh because the truth hurts. excuses all around. No strawman argument. MLG providence had TONS of top foreigners and koreans dominated hard. so in actuality you are speculating on how HOmestory would have went if some other foreigners were there, but in reality koreans dominated. And they have shown they can dominate no matter how many top foreigners are in a tournament. People said Stephano/nerchio/dimaga weren't at MLG providence and other tournaments they did not attend, now that they were in a tournament, they make excuses. Nice try, I'm not pitting anyone against anything, the people who keep bringing up foreigners vs Koreans, you should talk to them then. MLG Providence also had MVP, Nestea, etc. and foreigners took 4 out of the top 8 spots, so... And I think you're really not looking at the big picture; Dimaga took JYP (who is a top 3 Korean PvZer) to the 5th and final set and definitely looked just as good as JYP. Stephano... well, I'm not a huge fan of his but he didn't play like Stephano, at all. His games were REALLY sloppy tbh, and his performance in other tournaments like Blizzard cup and the like suggest that he can compete with top Koreans. Nerchio was the only one that really got dominated, because MC was on a whole different level than him. But then again, I can't name any Zerg that I would be confident putting against MC, so it's more like "Best PvZer in the world" vs. "one of Europe's best Zergs" than top foreigner vs. top Korean. While the Koreans definitely looked better, many of the foreigners were definitely within reach of the Korean's skills, so I think it's kind of unfair to say they got dominated. Only JYP and MC really outclassed the foreigners, and even then I'd argue that Dimaga played ridiculously well and played just as well.
Um, no. JYP won 3-1.
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On January 09 2012 13:48 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 13:46 diophan wrote:On January 09 2012 13:41 mvtaylor wrote:On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote:
The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in? The five invited Koreans were: MC (Code S) MKP (Code S) JYP (Code S) HerO (Code A) ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean) The qualified Koreans were: Sound (Who won a qualifier essentially as hard if not harder than the old Code A system) Violet (Who won THIS qualifier: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HomeStory_Cup/4/US_Qualifier)There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset. Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so... Look at what you quoted "S-class players with a few notable exceptions" MC/MKP are the exceptions presumably. This is JYP's first season in Code S and just barely eeked it out in up/down. He needs to prove himself in Code S before being considered S-class. Hero has never done well in Code S. Violet dropped out of Code A several seasons ago. So yes, most of them are not Code S-class players except a couple of exceptions. Hero has never been in Code S.
Sorry I meant Code A/Code A quals.
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On January 09 2012 13:51 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 12:47 jj33 wrote:On January 09 2012 12:41 teacash wrote:On January 09 2012 12:04 jj33 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +the excuses never stop.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have been as much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented. HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. I posted that before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight.. Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners" get outta here with that junk touchy there huh because the truth hurts. excuses all around. No strawman argument. MLG providence had TONS of top foreigners and koreans dominated hard. so in actuality you are speculating on how HOmestory would have went if some other foreigners were there, but in reality koreans dominated. And they have shown they can dominate no matter how many top foreigners are in a tournament. People said Stephano/nerchio/dimaga weren't at MLG providence and other tournaments they did not attend, now that they were in a tournament, they make excuses. Nice try, I'm not pitting anyone against anything, the people who keep bringing up foreigners vs Koreans, you should talk to them then. MLG Providence also had MVP, Nestea, etc. and foreigners took 4 out of the top 8 spots, so... And I think you're really not looking at the big picture; Dimaga took JYP (who is a top 3 Korean PvZer) to the 5th and final set and definitely looked just as good as JYP. Stephano... well, I'm not a huge fan of his but he didn't play like Stephano, at all. His games were REALLY sloppy tbh, and his performance in other tournaments like Blizzard cup and the like suggest that he can compete with top Koreans. Nerchio was the only one that really got dominated, because MC was on a whole different level than him. But then again, I can't name any Zerg that I would be confident putting against MC, so it's more like "Best PvZer in the world" vs. "one of Europe's best Zergs" than top foreigner vs. top Korean. While the Koreans definitely looked better, many of the foreigners were definitely within reach of the Korean's skills, so I think it's kind of unfair to say they got dominated. Only JYP and MC really outclassed the foreigners, and even then I'd argue that Dimaga played ridiculously well and played just as well.
Tbh, I wouldn't really judge Stephano's performance all that much here. Wasn't he playing completely hungover from drinking too much vodka the night before? If that's true, then he probably has the most substantial "excuse."
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On January 09 2012 13:54 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 13:51 Skwid1g wrote:On January 09 2012 12:47 jj33 wrote:On January 09 2012 12:41 teacash wrote:On January 09 2012 12:04 jj33 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +the excuses never stop.
When guys like nerchio/dimaga/thorzain/stephano aren't at a event, people will say "yea but top foreigners like stephano werne't at the event so it's not fair"!
now it's the other way around. Now it's because idra/huk/sen weren't there. too funny
guess what, there were 7 koreans out of how many players in homestory and 6 of them were in top 8. A bunch of them are relatively unknowns like sound.
Lots of people in denial.
MLG providence had tons of top foreigners and it was pretty korean dominant. Sure in 2011 some foreigners won some tournaments, but most was korean won.
You're totally arguing against a strawman here.. People aren't saying that the top foreigners would have done awesome if they were there.. All most of us are implying is that it wouldnt have been as much of a rollover of koreans over foreigners if the top foreigners were represented. HSC4 foreigner field was overall a joke vs those koreans. I posted that before the tourney, and i'm sure i wasn't alone in my sentiment. Nobody's "in denial", but nice try. The main point is that foreigners aren't as much of a joke compared to koreans as HSC made it seem like. Nobody's saying Idra or Naniwa or Huk et al. woulda crushed the koreans. Just that they could have put up more of a fight.. Not a controversial issue at all, so stop trying to argue like we all have to pick sides and the only sides are "foreigners are awesome" and "koreans are 10 times better than all foreigners" get outta here with that junk touchy there huh because the truth hurts. excuses all around. No strawman argument. MLG providence had TONS of top foreigners and koreans dominated hard. so in actuality you are speculating on how HOmestory would have went if some other foreigners were there, but in reality koreans dominated. And they have shown they can dominate no matter how many top foreigners are in a tournament. People said Stephano/nerchio/dimaga weren't at MLG providence and other tournaments they did not attend, now that they were in a tournament, they make excuses. Nice try, I'm not pitting anyone against anything, the people who keep bringing up foreigners vs Koreans, you should talk to them then. MLG Providence also had MVP, Nestea, etc. and foreigners took 4 out of the top 8 spots, so... And I think you're really not looking at the big picture; Dimaga took JYP (who is a top 3 Korean PvZer) to the 5th and final set and definitely looked just as good as JYP. Stephano... well, I'm not a huge fan of his but he didn't play like Stephano, at all. His games were REALLY sloppy tbh, and his performance in other tournaments like Blizzard cup and the like suggest that he can compete with top Koreans. Nerchio was the only one that really got dominated, because MC was on a whole different level than him. But then again, I can't name any Zerg that I would be confident putting against MC, so it's more like "Best PvZer in the world" vs. "one of Europe's best Zergs" than top foreigner vs. top Korean. While the Koreans definitely looked better, many of the foreigners were definitely within reach of the Korean's skills, so I think it's kind of unfair to say they got dominated. Only JYP and MC really outclassed the foreigners, and even then I'd argue that Dimaga played ridiculously well and played just as well. Tbh, I wouldn't really judge Stephano's performance all that much here. Wasn't he playing completely hungover from drinking too much vodka the night before? If that's true, then he probably has the most substantial "excuse."
But It's not like he probably would've won if he hadn't. He lost in Blizzard cup to MC as well.
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On January 09 2012 13:46 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 13:41 mvtaylor wrote:On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote:
The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in? The five invited Koreans were: MC (Code S) MKP (Code S) JYP (Code S) HerO (Code A) ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean) The qualified Koreans were: Sound (Who won a qualifier essentially as hard if not harder than the old Code A system) Violet (Who won THIS qualifier: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HomeStory_Cup/4/US_Qualifier)There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset. Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so... Look at what you quoted "S-class players with a few notable exceptions" MC/MKP are the exceptions presumably. This is JYP's first season in Code S and just barely eeked it out in up/down. He needs to prove himself in Code S before being considered S-class. Hero has never done well in Code S. Violet dropped out of Code A several seasons ago. So yes, most of them are not Code S-class players except a couple of exceptions.
Right, so what you're saying is that MC and MKP are okay but:
JYP can't be considered a top player as he's only just got in to a tournament for the best 32 players in the world for the first time
HerO can't be considered a top player as even though he won DreamHack Winter and narrowly missed out on Code S this season in Up/Downs he's actually in Code A when it comes down to it
Sound can't be considered a top player even though he won a tournament with five Code S players in, including the reigning champion of GSL.
I would say five of the seven invited Koreans could be considered VERY high quality while the other two were far from shabby given the over all level of competitors. You say you'd only consider two of them in such a way...
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On January 09 2012 13:20 mvtaylor wrote:
Bloody hell topics like these are stupid...
In any foreigner tournament you're only going to be getting officer class Koreans competing.
When people say oh only 12% of the people invited were Koreans yet they make up 75% of the top 8 let's actually analyse that.
Did anyone SERIOUSLY expect say... JYP to get knocked out by Destiny or IncontroL?
Ret and Thorzain had shambolic tournaments, Stephano wasn't much better and looked totally off form both days.
Bling could have forced JYP in to a three way time breaker in the original group stges but for one mis control.
Hasuobs and KawaiiRice didn't do too great, but considering Kawaii said it took him 16 hours to get there the day before he played in groups it's fairly reasonable?
When MVP and NesTea were really out of shape last time they travelled to a foreign tourney they both lost to Naniwa and then nearly both got kicked out of by HayprO who proceeded to crash out of dreamhack and HSC.
If there were a vote before the tournament asking which two foreigners would get through to the ro8 i'm pretty sure Dimaga and Nerchio wouldn't have been the two most people chose. By the same token if people had to vote on which Korean they thought wouldn't make it through to the ro8 I don't think most people would have picked HerO.
People try to read far, FAR, FAAAAR to much in too tournaments like this.
There were a few very good foreigners there that have performed well for an extended period of time and would also considered to be on top of their current game. Of that small bunch a large portion also had a really BAD tournament.
Against some of the best Korea has to offer Goody almost beat out two koreans in bio TvP to get out of his group. If he'd have won one more game he'd have knocked either Real or JYP out. Would anyone have predicted that pre-tournament?
Anyone who thinks Foreigners can compete with Koreans is flat out wrong, they completely dominate in their own country (where I highly expect Sen to get smacked down to Code A in a few hours) and win almost every foreign tournament where they send their "A" grade competitors to.
IPL3 and MLG Raleigh are the only really massive events where officer class Koreans have gone over and haven't managed a win (I don't count the Global Invitational with four competitors in two best of threes...)
To be fair, when 2 of those competitors are MVP and NesTea, both 3 time GSL champs, disregarding it out of hand is silly. It had a prize, it mattered, they lost. Best of 3 is pretty crap for a finals, but that's not a good enough reason for you to pretend it didn't happen.
I do think Sen will do better than you give him credit for, because A) he's very good, but mostly B) he only has to prepare for ZvT. Everyone else in his group has to prepare for 2 MUs. This should be a really good GSL however since most players are not coming off a crazy schedule.
Apart from that I agree 
Basically Korean teams are only going to send players they feel have a good shot at winning (are really strong right now) because it costs them a lot of money to send that player. Pretty much any Korean at a foreign event will be in great form.
On January 09 2012 13:59 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 13:46 diophan wrote:On January 09 2012 13:41 mvtaylor wrote:On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote:
The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in? The five invited Koreans were: MC (Code S) MKP (Code S) JYP (Code S) HerO (Code A) ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean) The qualified Koreans were: Sound (Who won a qualifier essentially as hard if not harder than the old Code A system) Violet (Who won THIS qualifier: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HomeStory_Cup/4/US_Qualifier)There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset. Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so... Look at what you quoted "S-class players with a few notable exceptions" MC/MKP are the exceptions presumably. This is JYP's first season in Code S and just barely eeked it out in up/down. He needs to prove himself in Code S before being considered S-class. Hero has never done well in Code S. Violet dropped out of Code A several seasons ago. So yes, most of them are not Code S-class players except a couple of exceptions. Right, so what you're saying is that MC and MKP are okay but: JYP can't be considered a top player as he's only just got in to a tournament for the best 32 players in the world for the first time HerO can't be considered a top player as even though he won DreamHack Winter and narrowly missed out on Code S this season in Up/Downs he's actually in Code A when it comes down to it Sound can't be considered a top player even though he won a tournament with five Code S players in, including the reigning champion of GSL. I would say five of the seven invited Koreans could be considered VERY high quality while the other two were far from shabby given the over all level of competitors. You say you'd only consider two of them in such a way...
And this I really hate.
This BS that the only results that matter, EVER are if a player is in code s or not. Hero can damn well be considered a top player, 'narrowly' missing out on a code s spot can mean anything from 'only just lost to the best players in the world' to 'got blindly meta'gamed by someone'.
GSL, especially last year, was very VERY focused on having a good team of players to prepare you for 2 or 3 games on specific maps against specific opponents for 1 week. The more 'history' of your games are online the bigger your disadvantage. If you compete at foreign events as well as GSL you're at a disadvantage. Which player is better, one that wins GSL code S or MLG via the open bracket? Depends on your metric. Remove MVP from his team and give him no info on his opponents and you have a vastly 'weaker' MVP than the one you see in code s.
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On January 09 2012 13:59 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 13:46 diophan wrote:On January 09 2012 13:41 mvtaylor wrote:On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote:
The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in? The five invited Koreans were: MC (Code S) MKP (Code S) JYP (Code S) HerO (Code A) ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean) The qualified Koreans were: Sound (Who won a qualifier essentially as hard if not harder than the old Code A system) Violet (Who won THIS qualifier: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HomeStory_Cup/4/US_Qualifier)There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset. Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so... Look at what you quoted "S-class players with a few notable exceptions" MC/MKP are the exceptions presumably. This is JYP's first season in Code S and just barely eeked it out in up/down. He needs to prove himself in Code S before being considered S-class. Hero has never done well in Code S. Violet dropped out of Code A several seasons ago. So yes, most of them are not Code S-class players except a couple of exceptions. Right, so what you're saying is that MC and MKP are okay but: JYP can't be considered a top player as he's only just got in to a tournament for the best 32 players in the world for the first time HerO can't be considered a top player as even though he won DreamHack Winter and narrowly missed out on Code S this season in Up/Downs he's actually in Code A when it comes down to it Sound can't be considered a top player even though he won a tournament with five Code S players in, including the reigning champion of GSL. I would say five of the seven invited Koreans could be considered VERY high quality while the other two were far from shabby given the over all level of competitors. You say you'd only consider two of them in such a way...
No I'm saying you quoted a guy saying there were only a couple Code S-class players and acted like he was wrong. Sure the other Koreans are good but not consistent Code S quality. Anyway this is sort of a silly argument since I don't really think there's much disagreement.
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When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
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Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise.
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On January 09 2012 14:14 schimmetje wrote:
Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise.
Just out of curiosity, when has that ever happened? And what are all the excuses made when that occurred?
The only example I can think of was TSL3. I don't know what the reasons were for the Koreans (and foreigners who practiced in Korea) not playing *to their full potential* besides "Thorzain is a total baller" and "Cruncher : ) ".
::shrugs:: I guess people complain about latency when Koreans lose recent online matches... but I would think that that's a legitimate argument if they're playing cross-server >.>
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On January 09 2012 13:41 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 13:26 zefreak wrote:
The korean invites could hardly be considered S-class players with a few notable exceptions.. and obviously people did expect a foreigner upset or this thread wouldn't have been necessary. Did you even read any of the hype before the tourney started and hindsight kicked in? The five invited Koreans were: MC (Code S) MKP (Code S) JYP (Code S) HerO (Code A) ReaL (Lives in the country where the tournament was and is Korean) The qualified Koreans were: Sound (Who won a qualifier essentially as hard if not harder than the old Code A system) Violet (Who won THIS qualifier: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/HomeStory_Cup/4/US_Qualifier)There are TWO of those Koreans who you can say got to that tournament and are not top top quality players and out of those two one of them still won the weaker qualifier for entry while the other managed to defeat: Attero, Adelscott, DIMAGA, GoOdy and ClouD so I'd say of the invited/qualified Koreans that aren't top quality (1) they managed one game you could call an upset. Oh, and if people say violet isn't a top quality Korean then he managed to beat HerO and MKP in this tourney so...
Sound and Real were unknowns, and managed to kick ass. Violet wasn't a complete unknown but NO ONE considers/considered him a top korean and hes in code B, yet they all managed to kick ass.
MC got a lot of shit for "falling off" and being "too timing attack oriented" and everyone said he wouldn't win once his style got figured out. MKP is good no doubt, but hes not in the "elite" category of Terran players anymore. JYP is still new, this is only his first Code S season and he isn't a stud yet.
The fact is that not even the top elite koreans can still pwn the crap out of so called "foreigners who can keep up with koreans" like stephano (0-4 vs MKP and MC) and Nerchio.
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Great show, so any predictions for HSC5? If I recall correctly, HSC3 purposefully limited the number of Korean competitors(just one).
Will HSC5 go the way of HSC3(just inviting very few Koreans)? I think at this point HSC4 showed everyone a very clear story(no pun intended). Maybe 2012 will be different in closing the skill gap, but I just don't know.
I hear already hear the stirrings of "too many koreans in a non-korean tourney, climbing in yo tourneys, snatching yo prize pool up", honestly if anything it's more fair to minimize the Korean vs. other country and just focus on the players and not their nationalities.
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On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:
When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman.
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
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As usual, koreans destroy another international event.
How long will this domination last?
Will the koreans always be on another level? Will foreigners ever be able to step it up and get to the koreans' level? Are the current foreigners actually able to achieve it? Or do we have to wait for a new generation?
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On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named.
The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best.
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On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:
When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman. Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP. This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
Here's a crazy idea. Maybe foreigners need a longer "best of" format. I am just totally guessing, just thinking maybe something like this would help.
I've heard arguments that BO3 is way too punishing and needs to be minimum BO5 to at least give the underdog a fighting chance to get back into the game. It's not fair for someone to be beat just twice in a row and then he's out.
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On January 09 2012 14:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:14 schimmetje wrote:
Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise. Just out of curiosity, when has that ever happened? And what are all the excuses made when that occurred? The only example I can think of was TSL3. I don't know what the reasons were for the Koreans (and foreigners who practiced in Korea) not playing *to their full potential* besides "Thorzain is a total baller" and "Cruncher : ) ". ::shrugs:: I guess people complain about latency when Koreans lose recent online matches... but I would think that that's a legitimate argument if they're playing cross-server >.>
Oh come on, you have 10k posts, you know how this thing goes around these parts. There's plenty of instances where it happened for both sides when one did better or worse than expected, I'd wager you could find some examples in this thread. But this kind of discussion is hardly ever about legitimate arguments or anything really. The current argument is a little weak however. And overall it doesn't tell us anything new. Who knows though, if we do this from now until HSC14 maybe we can put it to rest. Yeah right, I know
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EPT
