|
On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:
When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman. Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP. This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope.
This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
|
On January 09 2012 14:41 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:
When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman. Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP. This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope. This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
|
On January 09 2012 14:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:14 schimmetje wrote:
Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise. Just out of curiosity, when has that ever happened? And what are all the excuses made when that occurred? The only example I can think of was TSL3. I don't know what the reasons were for the Koreans (and foreigners who practiced in Korea) not playing *to their full potential* besides "Thorzain is a total baller" and "Cruncher : ) ". ::shrugs:: I guess people complain about latency when Koreans lose recent online matches... but I would think that that's a legitimate argument if they're playing cross-server >.>
Jetlag~
|
On January 09 2012 14:40 schimmetje wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 09 2012 14:14 schimmetje wrote:
Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise. Just out of curiosity, when has that ever happened? And what are all the excuses made when that occurred? The only example I can think of was TSL3. I don't know what the reasons were for the Koreans (and foreigners who practiced in Korea) not playing *to their full potential* besides "Thorzain is a total baller" and "Cruncher : ) ". ::shrugs:: I guess people complain about latency when Koreans lose recent online matches... but I would think that that's a legitimate argument if they're playing cross-server >.> Oh come on, you have 10k posts, you know how this thing goes around these parts. There's plenty of instances where it happened for both sides when one did better or worse than expected, I'd wager you could find some examples in this thread. But this kind of discussion is hardly ever about legitimate arguments or anything really. The current argument is a little weak however. And overall it doesn't tell us anything new. Who knows though, if we do this from now until HSC14 maybe we can put it to rest. Yeah right, I know 
So instead of coming up with an example, you point out my post count o.O Makes sense
My concern was genuine, in that I can't exactly think of many tournaments where a whole group of Koreans fly in and get stomped by foreigners, and then the fanboys of the Korean players make excuses (perhaps "jetlag"?). Obviously, the occasional Korean or two might not perform well compared to the other Koreans, but you generally see them taking a disproportionately high placement at the top, if not sweeping the final three or so (regardless of how many play in the tournament).
|
On January 09 2012 14:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope. Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named. The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best.
It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least).
And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS".
Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three.
Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL?
|
On January 09 2012 14:44 Al Bundy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:41 Kharnage wrote:On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:
When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman. Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP. This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope. This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!' Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant.
BS.
The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games?
On January 09 2012 14:51 Lewan72 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope. Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named. The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best. It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least). And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS". Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three. Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL?
Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF?
|
On January 09 2012 14:39 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:
When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman. Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP. This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope. Here's a crazy idea. Maybe foreigners need a longer "best of" format. I am just totally guessing, just thinking maybe something like this would help.I've heard arguments that BO3 is way too punishing and needs to be minimum BO5 to at least give the underdog a fighting chance to get back into the game. It's not fair for someone to be beat just twice in a row and then he's out.
If someone is the underdog I imagine the variance of a BO1 is best for them, since in the long run they should lose.
|
Lots of good foreigners were absent. Lots of good Koreans attended. These statistics are accurate, but they do NOTHING to show current dominance or skill progression. I'd consider this thread to be rather lame and uninformative, TBH.
|
On January 09 2012 14:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:40 schimmetje wrote:On January 09 2012 14:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 09 2012 14:14 schimmetje wrote:
Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise. Just out of curiosity, when has that ever happened? And what are all the excuses made when that occurred? The only example I can think of was TSL3. I don't know what the reasons were for the Koreans (and foreigners who practiced in Korea) not playing *to their full potential* besides "Thorzain is a total baller" and "Cruncher : ) ". ::shrugs:: I guess people complain about latency when Koreans lose recent online matches... but I would think that that's a legitimate argument if they're playing cross-server >.> Oh come on, you have 10k posts, you know how this thing goes around these parts. There's plenty of instances where it happened for both sides when one did better or worse than expected, I'd wager you could find some examples in this thread. But this kind of discussion is hardly ever about legitimate arguments or anything really. The current argument is a little weak however. And overall it doesn't tell us anything new. Who knows though, if we do this from now until HSC14 maybe we can put it to rest. Yeah right, I know So instead of coming up with an example, you point out my post count o.O Makes sense My concern was genuine, in that I can't exactly think of many tournaments where a whole group of Koreans fly in and get stomped by foreigners, and then the fanboys of the Korean players make excuses (perhaps "jetlag"?). Obviously, the occasional Korean or two might not perform well compared to the other Koreans, but you generally see them taking a disproportionately high placement at the top, if not sweeping the final three or so (regardless of how many play in the tournament).
Actually I agree with you for the most part but after Nani beat MVP/Nestea people did just say they were jetlagged and that's why they lost.
|
On January 09 2012 14:54 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:44 Al Bundy wrote:On January 09 2012 14:41 Kharnage wrote:On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:
When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman. Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP. This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope. This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!' Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant. BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games? Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:51 Lewan72 wrote:On January 09 2012 14:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope. Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named. The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best. It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least). And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS". Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three. Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL? Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF?
so are you suggesting that, if a foreigner loses a bo1 format, that this format somehow favored the Korean? If you are, then assuredly you'll agree with one of my ideas, which is a BO5 format at the minimum, as even BO3 is too punishing for some people and doesn't give the chances that they need.
gotta put it out there though. if we're not allowed to take any information back from the results of this HSC4, then if in HSC5, the shoe is on the other foot, then we must adhere to the very same rules. We're all cool with that right?
|
On January 09 2012 14:58 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 09 2012 14:40 schimmetje wrote:On January 09 2012 14:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 09 2012 14:14 schimmetje wrote:
Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise. Just out of curiosity, when has that ever happened? And what are all the excuses made when that occurred? The only example I can think of was TSL3. I don't know what the reasons were for the Koreans (and foreigners who practiced in Korea) not playing *to their full potential* besides "Thorzain is a total baller" and "Cruncher : ) ". ::shrugs:: I guess people complain about latency when Koreans lose recent online matches... but I would think that that's a legitimate argument if they're playing cross-server >.> Oh come on, you have 10k posts, you know how this thing goes around these parts. There's plenty of instances where it happened for both sides when one did better or worse than expected, I'd wager you could find some examples in this thread. But this kind of discussion is hardly ever about legitimate arguments or anything really. The current argument is a little weak however. And overall it doesn't tell us anything new. Who knows though, if we do this from now until HSC14 maybe we can put it to rest. Yeah right, I know So instead of coming up with an example, you point out my post count o.O Makes sense My concern was genuine, in that I can't exactly think of many tournaments where a whole group of Koreans fly in and get stomped by foreigners, and then the fanboys of the Korean players make excuses (perhaps "jetlag"?). Obviously, the occasional Korean or two might not perform well compared to the other Koreans, but you generally see them taking a disproportionately high placement at the top, if not sweeping the final three or so (regardless of how many play in the tournament). Actually I agree with you for the most part but after Nani beat MVP/Nestea people did just say they were jetlagged and that's why they lost.
Nestea did perform remarkably poorly during the weekend of MLG Providence, although he's kind of been slumping in general lately too. I wonder if it's appropriate to attribute their losses to jetlag. There were a few games against Naniwa where Naniwa really played flawlessly (note that he's been practicing his ass off in Korea too- even skipping other major tournaments to just train for MLG Providence), and I wonder how many other Koreans had no problem with the trip whatsoever. So I do suppose an excuse was made for those two players (although, of course, Providence was still a Korean victory, so certainly not an example of Koreans all getting stomped by foreigners at a major tournament.)
I got to shake hands and take pictures with MVP and Nestea at the QIM meet, and they seemed to be pretty energetic and laid back as far as I could tell. I'd just as much attribute Nestea's losses to the nestea I gave him than to the jetlag, but I also think that some people were uncomfortable with Naniwa rolling the best Terran and best Zerg in the world.
|
Hi Skill Gap Thread...long time no see^^
For the community it is important that some people still believe that the skill gap is small. Thats makes it entertaining...
from my point of view the koreans just train harder than foreigners. So they earned every tournament victory!
Some of the MC matches there simply won by superior mechanics with really hard aggression.
My 2 cents....
|
On January 09 2012 14:41 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:
When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman. Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP. This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope. This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!'
I don't get how people say it was "super close"
His game against MMA was an absolute faceroll that gave the impression of being close with MMA's brain fart of donating NaNi two Thors. Meanwhile the game against... Polt(?) could have been close if naniwa hadn't kept pushing in to a one base Terran for no reason. Can't remember the other game... Leenock? but out of the two foreigners to compete in that tournament Stephano covered himself in far more glory and looked far better against Koreans that Naniwa.
Anway, I'm out of this thread as the main point of the thread will get discussed ad infinitum over the year
|
i love how everyone's pretending in this thread that sound, real, hero, and violet are part of anything close to a korean a team
|
On January 09 2012 15:08 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:54 Kharnage wrote:On January 09 2012 14:44 Al Bundy wrote:On January 09 2012 14:41 Kharnage wrote:On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:
When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman. Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP. This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope. This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!' Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant. BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games? On January 09 2012 14:51 Lewan72 wrote:On January 09 2012 14:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope. Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named. The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best. It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least). And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS". Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three. Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL? Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF? so are you suggesting that, if a foreigner loses a bo1 format, that this format somehow favored the Korean? If you are, then assuredly you'll agree with one of my ideas, which is a BO5 format at the minimum, as even BO3 is too punishing for some people and doesn't give the chances that they need. gotta put it out there though. if we're not allowed to take any information back from the results of this HSC4, then if in HSC5, the shoe is on the other foot, then we must adhere to the very same rules. We're all cool with that right?
um... homestory did a pretty good job with what they did for their matches. their playoffs were a best of 5 and their final was a best of 7. u do realize why its a best of 1/3 right? tournaments have allotted time and schedules they need to follow and if they're doing a best of 5 in the group stages just to give a fair shot to every foreigner in the tournament, they'd go bankrupt paying for all production and casters not to mention everyone will be dead tired because the players would prolly get like 0 sleep. the fact that they did a best of 3 in group stages is a favor to everyone. gsl usually did best of 1 in their group stages because it would take too damn long of they had a best of 3 for every player in their group stage elimination.
On January 09 2012 15:20 Kraznaya wrote:
i love how everyone's pretending in this thread that sound, real, hero, and violet are part of anything close to a korean a team
i would consider hero a very good korean player. maybe not top tier but top 5 korean protoss for sure because honestly, there's not that many good korean tosses. sound seems pretty good too. but violet is mediocre and real... i actually dont even consider him a korean and more a foreigner. kinda like same situation as select. if u consider select a foreigner, i consider real a foreigner and vice versa.
|
On January 09 2012 15:14 mvtaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:41 Kharnage wrote:On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:
When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman. Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP. This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope. This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!' I don't get how people say it was "super close" His game against MMA was an absolute faceroll that gave the impression of being close with MMA's brain fart of donating NaNi two Thors. Meanwhile the game against... Polt(?) could have been close if naniwa hadn't kept pushing in to a one base Terran for no reason. Can't remember the other game... Leenock? but out of the two foreigners to compete in that tournament Stephano covered himself in far more glory and looked far better against Koreans that Naniwa. Anway, I'm out of this thread as the main point of the thread will get discussed ad infinitum over the year
Leenock was a base race which naniwa almost won except for a 'brain fart' where he lost a bunch of stalkers into spines and then didn't kill the tech buildings (he went after economy).
Polt game I think naniwa actually made a few too many probes instead of beefing his defence after that push. the push he actually came out pretty close except he had an expansion and polt didn't. they were both losing units, it wasn't 'blind aggression'.
I missed most of MMA game so on that i can't comment.
|
United States15275 Posts
On January 09 2012 15:21 jpark4g wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 15:08 D_K_night wrote:On January 09 2012 14:54 Kharnage wrote:On January 09 2012 14:44 Al Bundy wrote:On January 09 2012 14:41 Kharnage wrote:On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:
When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman. Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP. This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope. This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!' Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant. BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games? On January 09 2012 14:51 Lewan72 wrote:On January 09 2012 14:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope. Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named. The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best. It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least). And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS". Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three. Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL? Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF? so are you suggesting that, if a foreigner loses a bo1 format, that this format somehow favored the Korean? If you are, then assuredly you'll agree with one of my ideas, which is a BO5 format at the minimum, as even BO3 is too punishing for some people and doesn't give the chances that they need. gotta put it out there though. if we're not allowed to take any information back from the results of this HSC4, then if in HSC5, the shoe is on the other foot, then we must adhere to the very same rules. We're all cool with that right? um... homestory did a pretty good job with what they did for their matches. their playoffs were a best of 5 and their final was a best of 7. u do realize why its a best of 1/3 right? tournaments have allotted time and schedules they need to follow and if they're doing a best of 5 in the group stages just to give a fair shot to every foreigner in the tournament, they'd go bankrupt paying for all production and casters not to mention everyone will be dead tired because the players would prolly get like 0 sleep. the fact that they did a best of 3 in group stages is a favor to everyone. gsl usually did best of 1 in their group stages because it would take too damn long of they had a best of 3 for every player in their group stage elimination. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 15:20 Kraznaya wrote:
i love how everyone's pretending in this thread that sound, real, hero, and violet are part of anything close to a korean a team
i would consider hero a very good korean player. maybe not top tier but top 5 korean protoss for sure because honestly, there's not that many good korean tosses. sound seems pretty good too. but violet is mediocre and real... i actually dont even consider him a korean and more a foreigner. kinda like same situation as select. if u consider select a foreigner, i consider real a foreigner and vice versa.
How is "top 5 korean protoss" not top tier? And until he consistently proves himself in Korea he cannot be considered at that level.
If Violet can beat MarineKing and Hero and consistently challenge TvZ specialists like Ganzi, I doubt he is mediocre.
|
On January 09 2012 14:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:40 schimmetje wrote:On January 09 2012 14:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 09 2012 14:14 schimmetje wrote:
Yeahh.. It's a tournament, a moment in time. Think of all the excuses you would have made if the Koreans had inadvertently not done well. If you want to prove something, put some stats up over a moment in time, like MLG for example. There, we've already seen the Korean results overall were better. This thread however doesn't really mean anything. Better players did better, surprise. Just out of curiosity, when has that ever happened? And what are all the excuses made when that occurred? The only example I can think of was TSL3. I don't know what the reasons were for the Koreans (and foreigners who practiced in Korea) not playing *to their full potential* besides "Thorzain is a total baller" and "Cruncher : ) ". ::shrugs:: I guess people complain about latency when Koreans lose recent online matches... but I would think that that's a legitimate argument if they're playing cross-server >.> Oh come on, you have 10k posts, you know how this thing goes around these parts. There's plenty of instances where it happened for both sides when one did better or worse than expected, I'd wager you could find some examples in this thread. But this kind of discussion is hardly ever about legitimate arguments or anything really. The current argument is a little weak however. And overall it doesn't tell us anything new. Who knows though, if we do this from now until HSC14 maybe we can put it to rest. Yeah right, I know So instead of coming up with an example, you point out my post count o.O Makes sense My concern was genuine, in that I can't exactly think of many tournaments where a whole group of Koreans fly in and get stomped by foreigners, and then the fanboys of the Korean players make excuses (perhaps "jetlag"?). Obviously, the occasional Korean or two might not perform well compared to the other Koreans, but you generally see them taking a disproportionately high placement at the top, if not sweeping the final three or so (regardless of how many play in the tournament).
There has never been a tournament where Koreans flew in and got stomped by foreigners. Even tournaments won by foreigners were Korean dominated. Dreamhack Summer: 3 Koreans in the top 4. IPL3: 3 of the top 4, 5 of the top 8. MLG Orlando: 6 of the top 8, 11 of the top 15. The only major live tournament where 3 or more top Koreans attended but did not win the majority of the top spots was IEM Guangzhou, but that was all Idra.
|
It may look close in the eyes of the noob, but in reality they were further ahead all that times or Koreans are just somehow always lucky to always place top :D!~
|
On January 09 2012 14:54 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:44 Al Bundy wrote:On January 09 2012 14:41 Kharnage wrote:On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:On January 09 2012 14:12 WolfintheSheep wrote:
When people say the skill gap is closing between Koreans and Foreigners, no one is remotely suggesting that every foreigner can beat MVP. Most Foreigners will never win a tournament, let alone compete in Code S. Everyone knows that, even the biggest foreign fanboys.
However, there are a handful of Foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S Koreans. If you are arguing against any other point, then you're ranting at a strawman. Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP. This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope. This is exactly what incontrol was talking about. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. 0-3 in SUPER close games vs the best Korea has to offer. Sure, it was 0 and 3, but those were nail-bitingly close games and only an idiot would watch them and say 'yep, naniwa was just out classed!' Still, he went 0-3. Playing nail-bitingly close games is cool and all, but at the end of the day, if you can't seal the deal and get the victory, this "close games" stuff becomes relatively insignificant. BS. The discussion is the skill gap. If there was a big skill gap then he'd get crushed by those players every game. Fact is that he didn't get crushed. He barely lost. Do you think say, Destiny or Tyler or Incontrol would have 'Barely lost' those games? Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 14:51 Lewan72 wrote:On January 09 2012 14:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:On January 09 2012 14:34 Lewan72 wrote:
Handful of foreign players that can consistently stand up to Code S koreans? Who has done this consistently? Huk? Hes out of Code S, and before then hes always gotten the easier side of groups. Idra? Maybe, but hes unproven right now. Naniwa? 0-3 in Bliz cup. Stephano? 0-4 vs MC and MKP.
This "handful" you are talking about only consist of less than 5 players, and none of them are consistent. Sure, they have beaten top koreans before, but do they do it every single tournament consistently? Nope. Wow, your bias is hilarious. Name one Code S Korean that hasn't been swept at least once. Now try to make an excuse about why those sweeps mean less than the three you randomly named. The top foreigners aren't the best players in the world, but their results are just as consistent as anyone in Code S except the very best. It's funny because so many people overate foreigners and have such a foreigner biased and when one person says that he doesn't think that any foreigner can consistently beat code S koreans then they are biased. I'm not being biased, I'm being practical (in my view at least). And as for your argument, at every single tournament Koreans go something like 37-3 or 19-4 against foreigners (these are just numbers I'm pulling out of my ass of course, but the real numbers are something along those lines). Then biased fanboys look at only the 3 losses or 5 losses or 7 losses and are like "HAHA NESTEA GOT BEATEN TOP FOREIGNERS CAN KEEP UP WITH TOP KOREANS". Not to mention nearly every single foreigner win versus a top Korean Terran is in a best of 3, and everyone knows worse players can sometimes take players off of better players in a best of three. Truth is although foreigners have had their moments of upsets, people are way overrating them. How did foreigners do in the GSL? Are you trolling? most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo1 format. Now unless it's Bo5 it doesn't count? WTF?
Most of the foreigners get knocked out of GSL in Bo3 format, as the earlier rounds of Code A have ALWAYS been.
You're clearly someone who doesn't even follow GSL so you shouldn't even comment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
