|
On January 09 2012 17:03 jpark4g wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 16:50 NipponBanzai wrote:On January 09 2012 16:43 jpark4g wrote:On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote:
HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]). he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/World_Cyber_Games_2011/Qualifiers/Korea The amount of preperation one goes through for gsl vastly outweighs WCG lol. Also, WCG is just one tournament. Doing bad in one tournement doesn't mean shit. Hero is consistently a Code A/B protoss. lol? u new to the esports scene? maybe america doenst give a shit but koreans take the wcg more seriously than gsl bro. wcg is a once a year tournament and the korean esports scene became what it was because of the boxer yellow wcg brood war final in 2001. just to give a few names of winners of the wcg since, boxer again the year after, iloveoov, stork, jaedong, and flash. and especially since this was the first year wcg switched over to sc2, i'm PRETTY SURE every sc2 player wanted to be the winner of wcg. mc had a foreign tournament to attend but cancelled it to practice for his wcg qualifier fyi bro. and in case u didnt watch the wcg final, when mvp won, he showed the most emotion from a tournament win since he won his first gsl in january it seemed like. if u watch mvp win games, he has like no reaction after his wins. Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 16:58 Sethronu wrote:while he's been improving pretty steadily over the last months, he's been nowhere consistent or capable enough to make a mark in Code S. did u even watch the up and downs? he was 1 win away from making code s this season. u know who he lost to that got his spot instead? jyp. and u know how jyp won that best of 1? he had a hidden pylon in hero's main and 4 gated him because hero made 1 mistake of assuming there was no pylon in his base when the probe died. i am 99.9% sure hero will make code s next season.
Making it to Code S is not quite the same as actually staying there and beating Code S players consistently. Almost making it, even less so. For the record, there are 8 P's in this GSL Code S, that actually made it, without being 1 win away. Most of them were actually in there for a while, too.
|
On January 09 2012 16:42 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 16:35 Cereb wrote:
This is the same **** after each tournament...
Foreigners win: omg skill cap is closing!
Koreans win: omg we have no chance! koreans dominating sc2 all the time every tournament!
And it's litterally after every single tournament as if suddenly all other results became null and void :/ Yeah, pretty much. Though this time it's about the score in matches and games, which is overwhelmingly bad for foreigners. Makes me think that we (foreigners) usually make big noise from a foreigner winning an event, but don't stop to look at the overall event Kr-Fo stats in maps, which usually isn't pretty even when a foreigner becomes the champ or vice-champ.
It's funny how willing people are to ignore stats. I don't understand this recent foreigner optimism one bit. Ever since IPL3 it's been this almost mob mentality that the foreigners are gonna start winning things. I dunno, it's a bit beyond me, and a bit beyond reality.
|
Honestly so much of this hate would just dissapear if people just remembered the GSTL where Artosis was the "coach". Remember that?
The foreigners didn't win - but Artosis couldn't be happier, because even he said "we proved that foreigners CAN take games off of Koreans".
Sometimes it's not all about winning, OK? Maybe we shouldn't even be talking about the "skill gap" but just be content with what we have.
|
On January 09 2012 17:35 Sethronu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 17:03 jpark4g wrote:On January 09 2012 16:50 NipponBanzai wrote:On January 09 2012 16:43 jpark4g wrote:On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote:
HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]). he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/World_Cyber_Games_2011/Qualifiers/Korea The amount of preperation one goes through for gsl vastly outweighs WCG lol. Also, WCG is just one tournament. Doing bad in one tournement doesn't mean shit. Hero is consistently a Code A/B protoss. lol? u new to the esports scene? maybe america doenst give a shit but koreans take the wcg more seriously than gsl bro. wcg is a once a year tournament and the korean esports scene became what it was because of the boxer yellow wcg brood war final in 2001. just to give a few names of winners of the wcg since, boxer again the year after, iloveoov, stork, jaedong, and flash. and especially since this was the first year wcg switched over to sc2, i'm PRETTY SURE every sc2 player wanted to be the winner of wcg. mc had a foreign tournament to attend but cancelled it to practice for his wcg qualifier fyi bro. and in case u didnt watch the wcg final, when mvp won, he showed the most emotion from a tournament win since he won his first gsl in january it seemed like. if u watch mvp win games, he has like no reaction after his wins. On January 09 2012 16:58 Sethronu wrote:while he's been improving pretty steadily over the last months, he's been nowhere consistent or capable enough to make a mark in Code S. did u even watch the up and downs? he was 1 win away from making code s this season. u know who he lost to that got his spot instead? jyp. and u know how jyp won that best of 1? he had a hidden pylon in hero's main and 4 gated him because hero made 1 mistake of assuming there was no pylon in his base when the probe died. i am 99.9% sure hero will make code s next season. Making it to Code S is not quite the same as actually staying there and beating Code S players consistently. Almost making it, even less so. For the record, there are 8 P's in this GSL Code S, that actually made it, without being 1 win away. Most of them were actually in there for a while, too.
Have you ever watched Hero's stream? The best games I have seen him play have been from his stream, not in any of the tournaments he has played (didn't get to watch HSC though). And its not just because his play is entertaining, his multitasking and micro appear to be on a higher level than any other Protoss I have seen when he is on his game.
I actually came to this thread for a reason slightly related to the op, I just wanted to say that in racial terms, this was an extremely balanced tournament, if you look at the distribution each race has half the amount they had in the previous round (rounded up or down) and I thought that was worth taking note of.
|
did u even watch dimaga MC games those games were so close even with a 3-1 score
|
No matter which foreigners participate in any tournament, the "best foreigners" will never be there.
No matter which Koreans participate in a foreign tournament, they are the top Koreans or an undiscovered gem who ranks up there with the top Koreans.
Instead of speculating, let's start having people put their money where their mouths are. Some poster mentioned that he lost 3000$ in bets during the HSC. If you truly believe that foreigners can go toe-to-toe with top Koreans then start making real wagers. Maybe after the results start hitting where it hurts, people will wake up to reality.
|
As time goes on, the gap between Koreans and Foreigners will only increase. Foreigners need to practice on the Korean ladder / in Korea / against Koreans to adapt and compete with them. Just practicing locally and playing european ladder is not enough... it is just too easy
|
debate? lol.. what debate.. koreans own everyone. let me know when they stop winning every major tournament
|
I don't see the point about it, even my wife who was looking at the tournament from bit to bit told me about the fact that foreigners were always playing poker or just derping around, while koreans where nearly always playing games or watching replays which is what a professional gamer is supposed to do. They are being paid for that!
Even Stephano played on hungover the second day so...what do you expect? I'm sure most of the people in the house where expecting to get some money on poker or coinflips than in the real tourney.
Unfortunately for the E-sports scene, the HSC4 was great for the games, but terrible for image.
|
yeah korean dominance is a fact, but i enjoyed delphi vs mkp, and there were many close series as well, so it was exciting and not clear who would advance, goody had me cheering so hard in his final match, same with grubby.
|
I'm going back through the Mlg Columbus preview thread, and I see hilarious gems like these:
On June 03 2011 03:54 nDragan wrote:
This is a great chance for NA players to destroy the stereotype that KR>NA. gl. Can't wait.
On June 03 2011 12:48 Korlinni wrote:
I'm ready to see the Koreans get stomped just so they can get off their throne of being better than anyone who is not korean.
Amazing how much things can change in a year.
|
i wonder why there are so many saying foreigners can do, foreigners can't do it. If people watch tournaments they should know a few can win bo5s or more againt koreans and that over a longer duration then 1 month. There is nothing else to it. Especially since koreans as well often have their 1 month shiny time.
But i guess people still being so rock solid about these korean topic, are immune to any sort of reason, both sides that is. The he is the best player, outside of korea, is something we don't hear in sc2 and imo that is deserved. But that doesn't mean that a few koreans currently are extremely hard to beat for everyone.
|
You can't make this comparison. If Stephano, Nerchio, Mana, Thorzain and IdrA will play in a tournament with other 50 koreans, foreign stats will look a lot better.
Koreans got a lot of wins vs not-top foreign players at this event.
Fail comparison and misleading stats ...
|
On January 09 2012 18:11 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 17:35 Sethronu wrote:On January 09 2012 17:03 jpark4g wrote:On January 09 2012 16:50 NipponBanzai wrote:On January 09 2012 16:43 jpark4g wrote:On January 09 2012 16:25 Sethronu wrote:
HerO is not even a 'top 5 Korean Protoss', lol. I know he's a fan favourite and all, but the guy is a nobody in GSL, please look at the results, not how much you like someone.
um... brb let me look at the results. first place dreamhack winter, 2nd place nasl season 2, 10th place providence(4th highest ranked protoss at the tournament [notable protosses present at providence:naniwa, huk, mc, hero, puzzle, oz, kikikaki]). he's a nobody at gsl because he keeps getting knocked out by good terran and zerg players. but then again, so did the other top protosses at the korean wcg qualifier, which i believe was the hardest korean tournament in 2011. u telling me mc isnt a top korean protoss because he got knocked out of a group stage filled with terrans? what i said he was top 5 korean protoss, not top 5 korean player. i dont even think mc makes the cut for the top 5 korean players. take a look: the wcg korean qualifier had every top korean player from code s through code b. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/World_Cyber_Games_2011/Qualifiers/Korea The amount of preperation one goes through for gsl vastly outweighs WCG lol. Also, WCG is just one tournament. Doing bad in one tournement doesn't mean shit. Hero is consistently a Code A/B protoss. lol? u new to the esports scene? maybe america doenst give a shit but koreans take the wcg more seriously than gsl bro. wcg is a once a year tournament and the korean esports scene became what it was because of the boxer yellow wcg brood war final in 2001. just to give a few names of winners of the wcg since, boxer again the year after, iloveoov, stork, jaedong, and flash. and especially since this was the first year wcg switched over to sc2, i'm PRETTY SURE every sc2 player wanted to be the winner of wcg. mc had a foreign tournament to attend but cancelled it to practice for his wcg qualifier fyi bro. and in case u didnt watch the wcg final, when mvp won, he showed the most emotion from a tournament win since he won his first gsl in january it seemed like. if u watch mvp win games, he has like no reaction after his wins. On January 09 2012 16:58 Sethronu wrote:while he's been improving pretty steadily over the last months, he's been nowhere consistent or capable enough to make a mark in Code S. did u even watch the up and downs? he was 1 win away from making code s this season. u know who he lost to that got his spot instead? jyp. and u know how jyp won that best of 1? he had a hidden pylon in hero's main and 4 gated him because hero made 1 mistake of assuming there was no pylon in his base when the probe died. i am 99.9% sure hero will make code s next season. Making it to Code S is not quite the same as actually staying there and beating Code S players consistently. Almost making it, even less so. For the record, there are 8 P's in this GSL Code S, that actually made it, without being 1 win away. Most of them were actually in there for a while, too. Have you ever watched Hero's stream? The best games I have seen him play have been from his stream, not in any of the tournaments he has played (didn't get to watch HSC though). And its not just because his play is entertaining, his multitasking and micro appear to be on a higher level than any other Protoss I have seen when he is on his game.
I actually came to this thread for a reason slightly related to the op, I just wanted to say that in racial terms, this was an extremely balanced tournament, if you look at the distribution each race has half the amount they had in the previous round (rounded up or down) and I thought that was worth taking note of.
This kind of argument really has to stop, seriously guys
|
On January 09 2012 19:05 cyclone25 wrote:
You can't make this comparison. If Stephano, Nerchio, Mana, Thorzain and IdrA will play in a tournament with other 50 koreans, foreign stats will look a lot better.
Koreans got a lot of wins vs not-top foreign players at this event.
Fail comparison and misleading stats ...
This has some truth in it. Though, Sound/Real/Violet aren't really top players eithers.
|
On January 09 2012 19:05 cyclone25 wrote:
You can't make this comparison. If Stephano, Nerchio, Mana, Thorzain and IdrA will play in a tournament with other 50 koreans, foreign stats will look a lot better.
Koreans got a lot of wins vs not-top foreign players at this event.
Fail comparison and misleading stats ...
This has happened before. Look what happened to all the top foreigners (Sase, Naniwa, Thorzain) that were seeded in Code A.
Their stats looked horrendous and more often than not didn't even get past the first round.
|
I would like people who seriously think foreigners are closing the gap to ask themselves how that can possibly be when there's pretty much no foreigner who plays even close to as seriously as even the worst korean players in Code A. We have a few players who can seriously put up a fight in Code A, people like Huk, Naniwa, Idra. Neither of them has a serious chance in Code S at the moment, there's just way too many amazing consistent players, and that's the way way top of the mountain of foreigners. I'm willing to bet there's WAY more Code S and A material in korea than in the whole foreign scene, and it's all because of determination.
Korean players take the game seriously and play it as a job. Foreign "professional" players still play it like a game.
|
I would like to see this specific of statistics chronologically for 2011 and see if there is any trend of improvement.
What the OP states was quite evident to everyone during the tournament, but beforehand there was definitely some hype about the "gap" closing and foreigners being able to perform closer to Korean level.
It was still the aura of Koreans are better, however there was definitely a feeling being created that they were manageable.
So um, yeah, someone get working on those statistics, please?
|
On January 09 2012 19:05 cyclone25 wrote:
You can't make this comparison. If Stephano, Nerchio, Mana, Thorzain and IdrA will play in a tournament with other 50 koreans, foreign stats will look a lot better.
Koreans got a lot of wins vs not-top foreign players at this event.
Fail comparison and misleading stats ...
Be fair instead and look at it realistically. Take 25 top korean players and 25 top foreign players and run a tournament. Can you tell me with a straight face that the stats wouldn't be horrible for the foreigners? Hell, even 25 non-top koreans would embaress the foreign community, just look at Sound vs Stephano. Sound is hardly a top player, but Stephano is supposed to be one, yet the games were quite one-sided.
|
On January 09 2012 19:32 MrCash wrote:
I would like to see this specific of statistics chronologically for 2011 and see if there is any trend of improvement.
What the OP states was quite evident to everyone during the tournament, but beforehand there was definitely some hype about the "gap" closing and foreigners being able to perform closer to Korean level.
It was still the aura of Koreans are better, however there was definitely a feeling being created that they were manageable.
So um, yeah, someone get working on those statistics, please?
Idra has upper tier Code S level zvt, Code a Zvz and zvp. Huk is borderline Code A. Stephano is Code A level. The rest of the top foreigners-- Kas, Thorzain, Mana, Naniwa, Major, Demuslim, White-ra, and a few others are just under Code A level. The rest will be dominated by most players on a Korean team.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
