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On October 24 2011 20:03 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 19:55 freewareplayer wrote:On October 24 2011 19:45 GhostFall wrote:
There is nothing cheesy about using something like blink stalkers to blink into the main while using a pylon to reinforce, since it is not reliant on lack of scouting. How do you blink in his main in the first place? Oh yeah people usually get an obs for that right, so you have a robo, make a warp prism maybe too? Solved you can now again use your blinkstalker tactic. Lets move on. [b]YOu just delayed your attack with 200 minerals and over a minute, next to being reliant on your opponent not sniping the prism. Yes. Fixed... On October 24 2011 19:45 GhostFall wrote:
There is nothing cheesy about placing a cannon on the high ground on Antiga shipyard to cover the watchtower. There is nothing cheesy about being able to place a cannon on the high ground on the 3rd in Xel'Naga to defend against infestors. This is a tough one... Let me think.. Maybe build a pylon up there too? With your XNC example your on 3 bases, which makes 100 minerals more for a pylon you will need anyway not much. Ok so you can still do this too. Extra APM requirements, easier to snipe, harder to guard, not to speak of the extra time this costsOn October 24 2011 19:45 GhostFall wrote:
There is nothing cheesy about using Voidrays to provide vision into your opponents base for warp ins as again, that's not something reliant on lack of scouting. These are legitimate tactical decisions that Blizzard is removing if this change goes through. If you do this of one base it is cheese and an all in, simple as that, if you do it with having more than 1 base, you can afford a robo no prob, but you most likely already have it for detection. Says the Terran..!? So, Protoss can't ahve Cheese/All- In play that is scoutable WITH A FUCKING SCAN!, but it's fair that Protoss can't scout any of the thousands of Terran all- ins?
Just to name a few:
Cloakshees
2 port banshee
hellion drops
3 rax
1/1/1
And most of those aren't even All-in ahum MULE Dumb, ignorant Terran. Start playing Random too so your claims make sence. NErfing ANY early agression of a race is BAD! This is just a free expansion for Terran while PRotoss has to be on his guard. meaning, Terran is ahead from the beginning of the game and needs to mess up for the game to be even?!?
Oh Teamliquid is down to insulting people now based on stuff you make up?
I Main Zerg and Offrace Protoss a lot, and never play terran. Im done with this whiny biased shit topic. I Play protoss mostly atm, and while this change is not the most needed, its not completly uncalled for.
Biased people be biased.
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I think low ground pylon should only allow to warp units on high ground, not buildings, it sounds like a good compromise to me
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On October 24 2011 20:01 Tazerenix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 20:00 Euronyme wrote:On October 24 2011 19:59 Kevoras wrote:On October 24 2011 18:35 deadmau wrote:
If they did this, but fixed toss, I wouldn't mind. Strange how they keep beating a dead horse though lol. I agree. there are a thousand ways to fix it.. they somehow picked the most obvious wrong way... I agree with the feeling generated from all this.. is that Protoss is being unfairly treaten. Protoss needs to rid 1 unit to get another. but Terran being the only.. that didn't lose.. any unit. weird. David Kim plays terran. David Kim is a GM Random player... He doesn't play terran.
During the blizzcon thing I was reading a thread about it and there were pages of posts pointing out that he enjoys playing terran the most and picks terran just slightly less than random.
Dunno if it's true at all, but I assumed so.
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bam there goes 75% of tosses from grandmaster
hope it goes through ! :o
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United Kingdom12053 Posts
If anything, this is good as it encourages you to use a warp prism more often.
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On October 24 2011 20:10 freewareplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 20:03 ToastieNL wrote:On October 24 2011 19:55 freewareplayer wrote:On October 24 2011 19:45 GhostFall wrote:
There is nothing cheesy about using something like blink stalkers to blink into the main while using a pylon to reinforce, since it is not reliant on lack of scouting. How do you blink in his main in the first place? Oh yeah people usually get an obs for that right, so you have a robo, make a warp prism maybe too? Solved you can now again use your blinkstalker tactic. Lets move on. [b]YOu just delayed your attack with 200 minerals and over a minute, next to being reliant on your opponent not sniping the prism. Yes. Fixed... On October 24 2011 19:45 GhostFall wrote:
There is nothing cheesy about placing a cannon on the high ground on Antiga shipyard to cover the watchtower. There is nothing cheesy about being able to place a cannon on the high ground on the 3rd in Xel'Naga to defend against infestors. This is a tough one... Let me think.. Maybe build a pylon up there too? With your XNC example your on 3 bases, which makes 100 minerals more for a pylon you will need anyway not much. Ok so you can still do this too. Extra APM requirements, easier to snipe, harder to guard, not to speak of the extra time this costsOn October 24 2011 19:45 GhostFall wrote:
There is nothing cheesy about using Voidrays to provide vision into your opponents base for warp ins as again, that's not something reliant on lack of scouting. These are legitimate tactical decisions that Blizzard is removing if this change goes through. If you do this of one base it is cheese and an all in, simple as that, if you do it with having more than 1 base, you can afford a robo no prob, but you most likely already have it for detection. Says the Terran..!? So, Protoss can't ahve Cheese/All- In play that is scoutable WITH A FUCKING SCAN!, but it's fair that Protoss can't scout any of the thousands of Terran all- ins?
Just to name a few:
Cloakshees
2 port banshee
hellion drops
3 rax
1/1/1
And most of those aren't even All-in ahum MULE Dumb, ignorant Terran. Start playing Random too so your claims make sence. NErfing ANY early agression of a race is BAD! This is just a free expansion for Terran while PRotoss has to be on his guard. meaning, Terran is ahead from the beginning of the game and needs to mess up for the game to be even?!? Oh Teamliquid is down to insulting people now based on stuff you make up? I Main Zerg and Offrace Protoss a lot, and never play terran. Im done with this whiny biased shit topic. I Play protoss mostly atm, and while this change is not the most needed, its not completly uncalled for. Biased people be biased.
Your portrait.
Whatever, you're an ignorant Zerg :-) Happy now?
Instead of responding to the arguments I offered, just negate them. Makes you look like your right......
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So they're forcing Protoss to use warp prism more. They just buffed its shields to seduce more people to use it...now without high ground warp ins, you'll have to build it.
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to be honest, I think this warp in high ground thing was never meant to be there in the first place, on some maps, it makes 4 gate a lot stronger than it would be (or stargate 3 gate against terran)
Maybe Bliz finds it a bit too punishing as well?
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On October 24 2011 20:12 mikiao wrote:
So they're forcing Protoss to use warp prism more. They just buffed its shields to seduce more people to use it...now without high ground warp ins, you'll have to build it.
That's like removing scan to force Terran to use Raven...
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On October 24 2011 20:12 ToastieNL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 20:10 freewareplayer wrote:On October 24 2011 20:03 ToastieNL wrote:On October 24 2011 19:55 freewareplayer wrote:On October 24 2011 19:45 GhostFall wrote:
There is nothing cheesy about using something like blink stalkers to blink into the main while using a pylon to reinforce, since it is not reliant on lack of scouting. How do you blink in his main in the first place? Oh yeah people usually get an obs for that right, so you have a robo, make a warp prism maybe too? Solved you can now again use your blinkstalker tactic. Lets move on. [b]YOu just delayed your attack with 200 minerals and over a minute, next to being reliant on your opponent not sniping the prism. Yes. Fixed... On October 24 2011 19:45 GhostFall wrote:
There is nothing cheesy about placing a cannon on the high ground on Antiga shipyard to cover the watchtower. There is nothing cheesy about being able to place a cannon on the high ground on the 3rd in Xel'Naga to defend against infestors. This is a tough one... Let me think.. Maybe build a pylon up there too? With your XNC example your on 3 bases, which makes 100 minerals more for a pylon you will need anyway not much. Ok so you can still do this too. Extra APM requirements, easier to snipe, harder to guard, not to speak of the extra time this costsOn October 24 2011 19:45 GhostFall wrote:
There is nothing cheesy about using Voidrays to provide vision into your opponents base for warp ins as again, that's not something reliant on lack of scouting. These are legitimate tactical decisions that Blizzard is removing if this change goes through. If you do this of one base it is cheese and an all in, simple as that, if you do it with having more than 1 base, you can afford a robo no prob, but you most likely already have it for detection. Says the Terran..!? So, Protoss can't ahve Cheese/All- In play that is scoutable WITH A FUCKING SCAN!, but it's fair that Protoss can't scout any of the thousands of Terran all- ins?
Just to name a few:
Cloakshees
2 port banshee
hellion drops
3 rax
1/1/1
And most of those aren't even All-in ahum MULE Dumb, ignorant Terran. Start playing Random too so your claims make sence. NErfing ANY early agression of a race is BAD! This is just a free expansion for Terran while PRotoss has to be on his guard. meaning, Terran is ahead from the beginning of the game and needs to mess up for the game to be even?!? Oh Teamliquid is down to insulting people now based on stuff you make up? I Main Zerg and Offrace Protoss a lot, and never play terran. Im done with this whiny biased shit topic. I Play protoss mostly atm, and while this change is not the most needed, its not completly uncalled for. Biased people be biased. Your portrait. Whatever, you're an ignorant Zerg :-) Happy now? Instead of responding to the arguments I offered, just negate them. Makes you look like your right......
lol just lol, One of your arguments was: More APM requirement to build a pylon and a cannon instead of a cannon. So you need to click cannon and pylon, instead of only Cannon.
This is the dumbest "argument" i read on teamliquid so far.
Also lol at your post count and your knowledge of the tl portraits...
Someone should report your posts btw for just randomly flaming, lucky for you i cant do it :D
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Its known that david kim likes terran the most, and YES he plays random.
But to topic, I think this change sucks, because the most toss player love to warp in on high ground trough pylon down ground in a PvP. It makes a 3 Gate harass more powerful. And for me as a toss I love Micro battle. I love in PvP that it is different for example to a PvZ where a makro game is more fun.
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I like this change, maybe a bit harsch for simcitying. But maybe they can allow some buldings to work. Not sure how I'd stand on this but.
This is nice because of cannon rushes and forced warpin(ex: when 4 gating). This also makes 2 gate proxies easier aswell.
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On October 24 2011 19:38 Shirolol wrote:
The only people who think this WON'T improve the over all level of play is random protoss players who use this to do some lame assed gimmick (DT in back of base etc.) anything I don't like losing to because I can't scout, and I have a sense of self-entitlement that I shouldn't lose to things I don't agree with. Everyone elseTerran and zerg who don't like losing, however, can clearly see how this fixes a problem in the game at the moment.
Fixed this for you...
I guess it must suck that your greedy expos are punishable by calculated early aggression, I guess we should just let you macro until you feel like attacking?
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This helps the "defenders" advantage. If they increase pylon range back and/or buff gateway units by just a little bit I'll be perfectly fine with thism change.
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On October 24 2011 20:17 freewareplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 20:12 ToastieNL wrote:On October 24 2011 20:10 freewareplayer wrote:On October 24 2011 20:03 ToastieNL wrote:On October 24 2011 19:55 freewareplayer wrote:On October 24 2011 19:45 GhostFall wrote:
There is nothing cheesy about using something like blink stalkers to blink into the main while using a pylon to reinforce, since it is not reliant on lack of scouting. How do you blink in his main in the first place? Oh yeah people usually get an obs for that right, so you have a robo, make a warp prism maybe too? Solved you can now again use your blinkstalker tactic. Lets move on. [b]YOu just delayed your attack with 200 minerals and over a minute, next to being reliant on your opponent not sniping the prism. Yes. Fixed... On October 24 2011 19:45 GhostFall wrote:
There is nothing cheesy about placing a cannon on the high ground on Antiga shipyard to cover the watchtower. There is nothing cheesy about being able to place a cannon on the high ground on the 3rd in Xel'Naga to defend against infestors. This is a tough one... Let me think.. Maybe build a pylon up there too? With your XNC example your on 3 bases, which makes 100 minerals more for a pylon you will need anyway not much. Ok so you can still do this too. Extra APM requirements, easier to snipe, harder to guard, not to speak of the extra time this costsOn October 24 2011 19:45 GhostFall wrote:
There is nothing cheesy about using Voidrays to provide vision into your opponents base for warp ins as again, that's not something reliant on lack of scouting. These are legitimate tactical decisions that Blizzard is removing if this change goes through. If you do this of one base it is cheese and an all in, simple as that, if you do it with having more than 1 base, you can afford a robo no prob, but you most likely already have it for detection. Says the Terran..!? So, Protoss can't ahve Cheese/All- In play that is scoutable WITH A FUCKING SCAN!, but it's fair that Protoss can't scout any of the thousands of Terran all- ins?
Just to name a few:
Cloakshees
2 port banshee
hellion drops
3 rax
1/1/1
And most of those aren't even All-in ahum MULE Dumb, ignorant Terran. Start playing Random too so your claims make sence. NErfing ANY early agression of a race is BAD! This is just a free expansion for Terran while PRotoss has to be on his guard. meaning, Terran is ahead from the beginning of the game and needs to mess up for the game to be even?!? Oh Teamliquid is down to insulting people now based on stuff you make up? I Main Zerg and Offrace Protoss a lot, and never play terran. Im done with this whiny biased shit topic. I Play protoss mostly atm, and while this change is not the most needed, its not completly uncalled for. Biased people be biased. Your portrait. Whatever, you're an ignorant Zerg :-) Happy now? Instead of responding to the arguments I offered, just negate them. Makes you look like your right...... lol just lol, One of your arguments was: More APM requirement to build a pylon and a cannon instead of a cannon. So you need to click cannon and pylon, instead of only Cannon. This is the dumbest "argument" i read on teamliquid so far. Also lol at your post count and your knowledge of the tl portraits... Someone should report your posts btw for just randomly flaming, lucky for you i cant do it :D
Well, that was indeed the bullshitty one, but it creates another ppoint of vulnerability, forcing you to pay a lot of attention to it, while doing everything you have to do?
Next to that, your portrait is an SCV. And your postcount is lower than mine. Does that mean anything?
Now, time to go do something useful.
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It's a tradeoff, but I'm basically fine with anything that increases the defenders advantage. Some of the cutesy "observer for vision" warp-ins may be missed, but otherwise this seems like a decent change. Buff warp prisms in some manner if need to be to compensate for this
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I'm ok with them trying to remove all protoss cheeses as long as they do so for others race, which does not seem to be the case for now.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On October 24 2011 20:29 Yaki wrote:
I'm ok with them trying to remove all protoss cheeses as long as they do so for others race, which does not seem to be the case for now.
It would be terrible if all cheeses were removed IMO.
Cheese is a way to punish greedy players, at high level when you played safe (if the cheese is balanced obviously) you have no problem to defend against it.
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This is a moderately good change, the offensive warp-in done by Protoss decreased the defender's advantage of the other player, and this is bad. However, as pointed before, there were many applications for the high-ground/low-ground warp-in compatibility which are now removed.
A good decision, but it faces a string of inconsistent design choices for the Protoss race, and doesn't really fix too much.
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On October 24 2011 20:29 Yaki wrote:
I'm ok with them trying to remove all protoss cheeses as long as they do so for others race, which does not seem to be the case for now.
I agree.
I don't mind Protoss players losing potentially cheese like options, if other races gets the same.
If anything, Terran proxy 3 Rax is way worse than Proxy 2 gate. Even at Silver league, people can stop proxy 2 gate quite effective. but you will see Terran All-in Proxy 3 Rax all the way through Masters.
I am trying to be objective, yet having a hard time.
btw, I play Zerg, and I am excited about the Viper.
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EPT
