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On August 15 2011 07:27 macil222 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:16 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 06:37 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote:
NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation. Using MLG Dallas defeats your own argument because after that fiasco, Sundance came out in public and aired all the 'dirty laundry' regarding what had happened. He explained exactly what the problems were, what caused them and what they were going to do to rectify it. He was very transparent with the fans. Sometimes the laundry needs to be aired out completely, its the only way it will get cleaned. You can do that if you place the blame squarely on yourself, which is what they did after Dallas. If you recall, Sundance himself was ridiculed to pieces on these same forums when he suggested that people should buy more t-shirts in order to get a decent SC2 competition going. Then after Dallas, MLG came clean, placed the blame squarely on themselves, compensated everyone that had paid up to that point, and pretty much everyone came to respect MLG and Sundance for that, to a point where Sundance is now a total hero and everyone is counting down the days till the next MLG event. They actually improved. NASL on the other hand has a history of fuck-ups, not accepting responsibility for them, utterly terrible PR, and a general air of 'what are you whining about, this is only our first season, we are allowed to deliver a sub-par product'. That doesn't get you much credit with your fans/consumers. Why do people keep bringing up NASL's poor production from first season? So they had poor production and technical problems so that means its ok to sign a contract and then bail out over a week later?
I didn't say that at all. I was simply referring to the different ways you can deal with problems, you either start blaming everyone else or you accept (at least part of) the blame yourself. NASL has been utilizing option 1 too much (even here, by dragging teams into it that had 0 to do with it), while MLG is squarely in the 2nd group now and people love them for it.
As for this whole debacle, most of the drama threads on TL over the last few weeks went from 'omg the TSL coach is a bastard' to 'I always knew the TSL coach was a cute little puppy', with the entire community viewpoint switching around each time there was a new bit of information. Best thing we can all do is just shut up about it for now until we actually have some explanation from the korean side for what happened.
There's a big chance that the NASL is in the right here for a change, but I'd rather hold off judgement until there's you know, actual information.
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So to sum it all up there are two possible outcomes....1) NASL dies from lack of good content. 2) it becomes the NAsl (maybe half european) and it encourages local players aspiring to be progamers to actually put effort in seeing as the bar has been significantly lowered for them to compete.
Either way some easy money up for grabs if puma etc do still play. For at least the next 2 seasons. While I would love NASL to be a success I just fear for its ability to come out on top of all the drama and issues.
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On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote:
Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what?
There is 0 korean participation currently. you mean to tell me that not a single korean doesnt want to participate in the NASL (i mean not the most proffesional tournament but still). Fly out one weeeknd for a round of 32 for a shot at GSL code s prize pool.
The most important question is why is there such heavy korean attendance at MLG and none for NASL. MLG is a three day long battle of non-stop games with a significantly smaller prize pool.
KoreaCon has to be blocking player participation since most koreans would love the chance to participate. Also what about Assembly NADA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states.
That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations.
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I don't like drama. I wish I knew what SC2Con actually did, and why NASL would make these assumptions about them with apparently nothing to base them on (the first part made sense, the second seems very weird.)
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On August 14 2011 21:57 Rubber wrote:The lack of effective communication around this issue is unfortunate 
The first reply, best reply, and it applies to the whole sc2 scene whether it be player to player, player to organization, or organization to organization, and it's an issue that revolves around the internet and being so far apart one from the other.
People need to stop twisting things to be heard more favourably, I'm sure no one outright lied, but a slight twist of the truth, such as someone saying "MVP wants to join the NASL" instead of "I'll talk to MVP about joining NASL" and then MVP not joining NASL results in some false assumptions. As gamers and with the pressure of the super fast moving e-sports scene we often try to just step ahead, making logical assumptions of what's going to happen. However, when they don't turn out the way you thought, things fall apart pretty quick, as all of these stacked assumptions fall through.
To be honest I think that no Korean's in the NASL could really help them out. Though I really try to stay as positive as I can about the foreign SC2 scene, and I've reflected that attitude in any casts and communications with or about Koreans, having them stomp us in all of our own tournaments can get heavy on the heart and mind.
Back to the original topic, everyone needs to just state things as they are, stop trying to jump the gun, things aren't happening THAT fast, and move forward through mutual agreements instead of these do or die negotiations...
Katu
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Well. If anyone calms down and looks at the few facts we have got, nearly everything looks reasonable for me....
1. Korean Teams have big money issues and can't afford sending (even multiple) players to NASL. (500$ per player might be very high, even if you are not sure if you could afford traveling to the finals). - ok, clear by now
2. NASL can't or don't want to afford paying all traveling costs. - It's their buisness, their decision, if it's wise or not only time will tell
So because of that koreans don't want to participate anymore. OK just the logical consequence of point 1 & 2!
BUT the fact that most of the korean teams signed a contract for season two around july 25th/26th blows up my mind. This action at such a time makes absolutely NO SENSE AT ALL! If I have a problem like money issues, then I go into negotations to fix it BEFORE I sign a contract. That's what you even learn in "buisness for beginners - stupid edition". So I'm waiting for an explanation from the korean side.
Another thing that would be interesting: Who signed these contracts? The Players? The team managers??? Mr. Chae(little joke)??????
How did you get them signed? obviously per post? doesn't take it a long time shipping from korea to the U.S.? When were they sent, when were they signed? Maybe even before the finals of S1? How did you got contact to Mr. Chae or other representatives of the Teams? Maybe the problems lies here!
I see that NASL doesn't want to make this such an issue, but I must admit, even if they are the victim of this shit, they have been making it a drama!
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On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote:
Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? There is 0 korean participation currently. you mean to tell me that not a single korean doesnt want to participate in the NASL (i mean not the most proffesional tournament but still). Fly out one weeeknd for a round of 32 for a shot at GSL code s prize pool. The most important question is why is there such heavy korean attendance at MLG and none for NASL. MLG is a three day long battle of non-stop games with a significantly smaller prize pool. KoreaCon has to be blocking player participation since most koreans would love the chance to participate. Also what about Assembly NADA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations.
Cause literally none of the Koreans had to pay to go to mlg, either being covered by the exchange program or other sponsors, and most Koreans are in a financial situation where they can't pay 2000+ dollars to maybe lose money? Seems like you're trying to find drama where there is none.
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On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote:
Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? There is 0 korean participation currently. you mean to tell me that not a single korean doesnt want to participate in the NASL (i mean not the most proffesional tournament but still). Fly out one weeeknd for a round of 32 for a shot at GSL code s prize pool. The most important question is why is there such heavy korean attendance at MLG and none for NASL. MLG is a three day long battle of non-stop games with a significantly smaller prize pool. KoreaCon has to be blocking player participation since most koreans would love the chance to participate. Also what about Assembly NADA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations.
Or, perhaps you haven't thought of this. MLG pays for the entire trip. NASL does not. Maybe thats the reason, no..?
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On August 15 2011 07:35 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:27 macil222 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:16 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 06:37 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote:
NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation. Using MLG Dallas defeats your own argument because after that fiasco, Sundance came out in public and aired all the 'dirty laundry' regarding what had happened. He explained exactly what the problems were, what caused them and what they were going to do to rectify it. He was very transparent with the fans. Sometimes the laundry needs to be aired out completely, its the only way it will get cleaned. You can do that if you place the blame squarely on yourself, which is what they did after Dallas. If you recall, Sundance himself was ridiculed to pieces on these same forums when he suggested that people should buy more t-shirts in order to get a decent SC2 competition going. Then after Dallas, MLG came clean, placed the blame squarely on themselves, compensated everyone that had paid up to that point, and pretty much everyone came to respect MLG and Sundance for that, to a point where Sundance is now a total hero and everyone is counting down the days till the next MLG event. They actually improved. NASL on the other hand has a history of fuck-ups, not accepting responsibility for them, utterly terrible PR, and a general air of 'what are you whining about, this is only our first season, we are allowed to deliver a sub-par product'. That doesn't get you much credit with your fans/consumers. Why do people keep bringing up NASL's poor production from first season? So they had poor production and technical problems so that means its ok to sign a contract and then bail out over a week later? I didn't say that at all. I was simply referring to the different ways you can deal with problems, you either start blaming everyone else or you accept (at least part of) the blame yourself. NASL has been utilizing option 1 too much (even here, by dragging teams into it that had 0 to do with it), while MLG is squarely in the 2nd group now and people love them for it. As for this whole debacle, most of the drama threads on TL over the last few weeks went from 'omg the TSL coach is a bastard' to 'I always knew the TSL coach was a cute little puppy', with the entire community viewpoint switching around each time there was a new bit of information. Best thing we can all do is just shut up about it for now until we actually have some explanation from the korean side for what happened. There's a big chance that the NASL is in the right here for a change, but I'd rather hold off judgement until there's you know, actual information.
What you're all forgetting is another big reason MLG became amazing after Dallas was because of Korean participation.
On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote:
Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? DA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations.
LOL if you trust Xeris' word blindly because he 'isn't some random.' He's one of the sketchiest people in SC2 and values money/power over anything else. This is the guy who wouldn't return seats to two fans who had earned them at MLG because he thought he was more important than them.
Oh and maybe you should read this:
Total of 7 teams withdrew from NASL. Only 3 of them are in S2CON.
Yeah, you're wrong fanboy.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 15 2011 08:09 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:35 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 07:27 macil222 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:16 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 06:37 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote:
NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation. Using MLG Dallas defeats your own argument because after that fiasco, Sundance came out in public and aired all the 'dirty laundry' regarding what had happened. He explained exactly what the problems were, what caused them and what they were going to do to rectify it. He was very transparent with the fans. Sometimes the laundry needs to be aired out completely, its the only way it will get cleaned. You can do that if you place the blame squarely on yourself, which is what they did after Dallas. If you recall, Sundance himself was ridiculed to pieces on these same forums when he suggested that people should buy more t-shirts in order to get a decent SC2 competition going. Then after Dallas, MLG came clean, placed the blame squarely on themselves, compensated everyone that had paid up to that point, and pretty much everyone came to respect MLG and Sundance for that, to a point where Sundance is now a total hero and everyone is counting down the days till the next MLG event. They actually improved. NASL on the other hand has a history of fuck-ups, not accepting responsibility for them, utterly terrible PR, and a general air of 'what are you whining about, this is only our first season, we are allowed to deliver a sub-par product'. That doesn't get you much credit with your fans/consumers. Why do people keep bringing up NASL's poor production from first season? So they had poor production and technical problems so that means its ok to sign a contract and then bail out over a week later? I didn't say that at all. I was simply referring to the different ways you can deal with problems, you either start blaming everyone else or you accept (at least part of) the blame yourself. NASL has been utilizing option 1 too much (even here, by dragging teams into it that had 0 to do with it), while MLG is squarely in the 2nd group now and people love them for it. As for this whole debacle, most of the drama threads on TL over the last few weeks went from 'omg the TSL coach is a bastard' to 'I always knew the TSL coach was a cute little puppy', with the entire community viewpoint switching around each time there was a new bit of information. Best thing we can all do is just shut up about it for now until we actually have some explanation from the korean side for what happened. There's a big chance that the NASL is in the right here for a change, but I'd rather hold off judgement until there's you know, actual information. What you're all forgetting is another big reason MLG became amazing after Dallas was because of Korean participation. Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote:
Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? DA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations. LOL if you trust Xeris' word blindly because he 'isn't some random.' He's one of the sketchiest people in SC2 and values money/power over anything else. This is the guy who wouldn't return seats to two fans who had earned them at MLG because he thought he was more important than them.
I'd say that contributes to 30% of it. A lot of it came from efforts by the MLG staff
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On August 15 2011 08:13 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:09 Ocedic wrote:On August 15 2011 07:35 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 07:27 macil222 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:16 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 06:37 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote:
NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation. Using MLG Dallas defeats your own argument because after that fiasco, Sundance came out in public and aired all the 'dirty laundry' regarding what had happened. He explained exactly what the problems were, what caused them and what they were going to do to rectify it. He was very transparent with the fans. Sometimes the laundry needs to be aired out completely, its the only way it will get cleaned. You can do that if you place the blame squarely on yourself, which is what they did after Dallas. If you recall, Sundance himself was ridiculed to pieces on these same forums when he suggested that people should buy more t-shirts in order to get a decent SC2 competition going. Then after Dallas, MLG came clean, placed the blame squarely on themselves, compensated everyone that had paid up to that point, and pretty much everyone came to respect MLG and Sundance for that, to a point where Sundance is now a total hero and everyone is counting down the days till the next MLG event. They actually improved. NASL on the other hand has a history of fuck-ups, not accepting responsibility for them, utterly terrible PR, and a general air of 'what are you whining about, this is only our first season, we are allowed to deliver a sub-par product'. That doesn't get you much credit with your fans/consumers. Why do people keep bringing up NASL's poor production from first season? So they had poor production and technical problems so that means its ok to sign a contract and then bail out over a week later? I didn't say that at all. I was simply referring to the different ways you can deal with problems, you either start blaming everyone else or you accept (at least part of) the blame yourself. NASL has been utilizing option 1 too much (even here, by dragging teams into it that had 0 to do with it), while MLG is squarely in the 2nd group now and people love them for it. As for this whole debacle, most of the drama threads on TL over the last few weeks went from 'omg the TSL coach is a bastard' to 'I always knew the TSL coach was a cute little puppy', with the entire community viewpoint switching around each time there was a new bit of information. Best thing we can all do is just shut up about it for now until we actually have some explanation from the korean side for what happened. There's a big chance that the NASL is in the right here for a change, but I'd rather hold off judgement until there's you know, actual information. What you're all forgetting is another big reason MLG became amazing after Dallas was because of Korean participation. On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote:
Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? DA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations. LOL if you trust Xeris' word blindly because he 'isn't some random.' He's one of the sketchiest people in SC2 and values money/power over anything else. This is the guy who wouldn't return seats to two fans who had earned them at MLG because he thought he was more important than them. I'd say that contributes to 30% of it. A lot of it came from efforts by the MLG staff
Pulling arbitrary numbers out of your ass. Sorry but ultimately for most viewers, watching the highest level games matter. It was the one saving grace of NASL's season 1 finals, which had horrible production and legendarily long wait times between matches.
On August 15 2011 05:46 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:39 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 05:36 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:28 Dexx wrote:On August 15 2011 05:27 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote:
My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff? season 2 qualifier began when season 1 wasn't over yet. No one at that time know how NASL handled stuffs. What did NASL do wrong after Season1? 1) The LAN finals were awful. Cost players lots of money to fly over (since they only provided $500) and play 1 bo3. 2) Asking another $500 to play in season 2 while not paying back $250 from season 1 yet (yeah i know the contract, it's still the truth that they have to put $750 out) Let's try and be factually correct please. From what I read, the teams that paid their deposit the first time around had the option to simply up their depost. If they deposited 250 USD in S1, and are playing S2 again, they'd only have to wire another 250 USD over, not an additional 500. (500 still is a ridiculous amount tho) If it makes sure that players show up for their matches as scheduled, I think 500 is fine. Actually 500 is probably not enough as evidenced in S1 when there were multiple times that people didn't show up and highly inconvenienced their opponents, especially the korean players, who were already playing at 4am and then asked to wait sometimes for up to 4 hours for the opponents who still didn't show up.
A second deposit upon a first deposit is sketchy as shit, and not reasonable at all. The only reason a deposit should be increased is for people who actually violated the terms in season 1. If my apartment managers doubled my deposit after my first lease was up, yeah I'd get the fuck out of here.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 15 2011 08:08 Midgetman101 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote:
Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? There is 0 korean participation currently. you mean to tell me that not a single korean doesnt want to participate in the NASL (i mean not the most proffesional tournament but still). Fly out one weeeknd for a round of 32 for a shot at GSL code s prize pool. The most important question is why is there such heavy korean attendance at MLG and none for NASL. MLG is a three day long battle of non-stop games with a significantly smaller prize pool. KoreaCon has to be blocking player participation since most koreans would love the chance to participate. Also what about Assembly NADA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations. Or, perhaps you haven't thought of this. MLG pays for the entire trip. NASL does not. Maybe thats the reason, no..?
Then perhaps they would have thought of that before signing a contract stating they would be participating AND coming if they made it to the final. It also probably wouldn't have come all at once from ALL of them.
Both sides are to blame and we will probably never know the true story.
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On August 15 2011 04:43 mbr2321 wrote:
I'm not suggesting any kind of Korean coverup, but consider that PlayXP is a Korean site that almost certainly has a Korean bias. I still think that this isn't the whole story, and that NASL wouldn't accuse anyone of anything if it was completely baseless: that's just bad business.
Right because all Koreans are just one mass horde. They don't have individuality or free will like us enlightened Westerners. Maybe you should get some reading comprehension:
Total of 7 teams withdrew from NASL. Only 3 of them are in S2CON.
Or did the other 4 teams withdraw because other Koreans did, and they lacked the free thinking to be able to make decisions for themselves?
On August 15 2011 08:22 Vendor wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 15 2011 08:08 Midgetman101 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote:
Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? There is 0 korean participation currently. you mean to tell me that not a single korean doesnt want to participate in the NASL (i mean not the most proffesional tournament but still). Fly out one weeeknd for a round of 32 for a shot at GSL code s prize pool. The most important question is why is there such heavy korean attendance at MLG and none for NASL. MLG is a three day long battle of non-stop games with a significantly smaller prize pool. KoreaCon has to be blocking player participation since most koreans would love the chance to participate. Also what about Assembly NADA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations. Or, perhaps you haven't thought of this. MLG pays for the entire trip. NASL does not. Maybe thats the reason, no..? Then perhaps they would have thought of that before signing a contract stating they would be participating AND coming if they made it to the final. It also probably wouldn't have come all at once from ALL of them. Both sides are to blame and we will probably never know the true story.
Only one side lied to Team Liquid posters to try to get them on his side. Hint: Xeris
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On August 15 2011 08:17 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:13 nitdkim wrote:On August 15 2011 08:09 Ocedic wrote:On August 15 2011 07:35 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 07:27 macil222 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:16 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 06:37 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote:
NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation. Using MLG Dallas defeats your own argument because after that fiasco, Sundance came out in public and aired all the 'dirty laundry' regarding what had happened. He explained exactly what the problems were, what caused them and what they were going to do to rectify it. He was very transparent with the fans. Sometimes the laundry needs to be aired out completely, its the only way it will get cleaned. You can do that if you place the blame squarely on yourself, which is what they did after Dallas. If you recall, Sundance himself was ridiculed to pieces on these same forums when he suggested that people should buy more t-shirts in order to get a decent SC2 competition going. Then after Dallas, MLG came clean, placed the blame squarely on themselves, compensated everyone that had paid up to that point, and pretty much everyone came to respect MLG and Sundance for that, to a point where Sundance is now a total hero and everyone is counting down the days till the next MLG event. They actually improved. NASL on the other hand has a history of fuck-ups, not accepting responsibility for them, utterly terrible PR, and a general air of 'what are you whining about, this is only our first season, we are allowed to deliver a sub-par product'. That doesn't get you much credit with your fans/consumers. Why do people keep bringing up NASL's poor production from first season? So they had poor production and technical problems so that means its ok to sign a contract and then bail out over a week later? I didn't say that at all. I was simply referring to the different ways you can deal with problems, you either start blaming everyone else or you accept (at least part of) the blame yourself. NASL has been utilizing option 1 too much (even here, by dragging teams into it that had 0 to do with it), while MLG is squarely in the 2nd group now and people love them for it. As for this whole debacle, most of the drama threads on TL over the last few weeks went from 'omg the TSL coach is a bastard' to 'I always knew the TSL coach was a cute little puppy', with the entire community viewpoint switching around each time there was a new bit of information. Best thing we can all do is just shut up about it for now until we actually have some explanation from the korean side for what happened. There's a big chance that the NASL is in the right here for a change, but I'd rather hold off judgement until there's you know, actual information. What you're all forgetting is another big reason MLG became amazing after Dallas was because of Korean participation. On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote:
Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? DA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations. LOL if you trust Xeris' word blindly because he 'isn't some random.' He's one of the sketchiest people in SC2 and values money/power over anything else. This is the guy who wouldn't return seats to two fans who had earned them at MLG because he thought he was more important than them. I'd say that contributes to 30% of it. A lot of it came from efforts by the MLG staff Pulling arbitrary numbers out of your ass. Sorry but ultimately for most viewers, watching the highest level games matter. It was the one saving grace of NASL's season 1 finals, which had horrible production and legendarily long wait times between matches. Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 05:39 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 05:36 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:28 Dexx wrote:On August 15 2011 05:27 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote:
My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff? season 2 qualifier began when season 1 wasn't over yet. No one at that time know how NASL handled stuffs. What did NASL do wrong after Season1? 1) The LAN finals were awful. Cost players lots of money to fly over (since they only provided $500) and play 1 bo3. 2) Asking another $500 to play in season 2 while not paying back $250 from season 1 yet (yeah i know the contract, it's still the truth that they have to put $750 out) Let's try and be factually correct please. From what I read, the teams that paid their deposit the first time around had the option to simply up their depost. If they deposited 250 USD in S1, and are playing S2 again, they'd only have to wire another 250 USD over, not an additional 500. (500 still is a ridiculous amount tho) If it makes sure that players show up for their matches as scheduled, I think 500 is fine. Actually 500 is probably not enough as evidenced in S1 when there were multiple times that people didn't show up and highly inconvenienced their opponents, especially the korean players, who were already playing at 4am and then asked to wait sometimes for up to 4 hours for the opponents who still didn't show up. A second deposit upon a first deposit is sketchy as shit, and not reasonable at all. The only reason a deposit should be increased is for people who actually violated the terms in season 1. If my apartment managers doubled my deposit after my first lease was up, yeah I'd get the fuck out of here.
What if the reason your apartment manager increased the deposit was because of alot of your neighbors (not you, I'm saying your neighbors) trashing their places, the owners having to pay for repairs losing money because of it (even with the deposits thrown in) and the owners of the building saying screw that, raise the deposits for everybody, we're not taking any chances on getting screwed again.
Yeah it sucks for you and yes you certainly have the right to leave after the lease is up. But can you really blame the owners for protecting themselves against losing money?
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On August 15 2011 03:26 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote:
Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON. Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark.
Why did you make assumptions to begin with? It's not like the public was clamoring for you to pin someone to blame. Your post could literally have been "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL" and all this shit could have been avoided. Instead what you did was basically libel in an attempt to absolve yourself of all responsibility.
On August 15 2011 08:26 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:17 Ocedic wrote:On August 15 2011 08:13 nitdkim wrote:On August 15 2011 08:09 Ocedic wrote:On August 15 2011 07:35 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 07:27 macil222 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:16 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 06:37 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote:
NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation. Using MLG Dallas defeats your own argument because after that fiasco, Sundance came out in public and aired all the 'dirty laundry' regarding what had happened. He explained exactly what the problems were, what caused them and what they were going to do to rectify it. He was very transparent with the fans. Sometimes the laundry needs to be aired out completely, its the only way it will get cleaned. You can do that if you place the blame squarely on yourself, which is what they did after Dallas. If you recall, Sundance himself was ridiculed to pieces on these same forums when he suggested that people should buy more t-shirts in order to get a decent SC2 competition going. Then after Dallas, MLG came clean, placed the blame squarely on themselves, compensated everyone that had paid up to that point, and pretty much everyone came to respect MLG and Sundance for that, to a point where Sundance is now a total hero and everyone is counting down the days till the next MLG event. They actually improved. NASL on the other hand has a history of fuck-ups, not accepting responsibility for them, utterly terrible PR, and a general air of 'what are you whining about, this is only our first season, we are allowed to deliver a sub-par product'. That doesn't get you much credit with your fans/consumers. Why do people keep bringing up NASL's poor production from first season? So they had poor production and technical problems so that means its ok to sign a contract and then bail out over a week later? I didn't say that at all. I was simply referring to the different ways you can deal with problems, you either start blaming everyone else or you accept (at least part of) the blame yourself. NASL has been utilizing option 1 too much (even here, by dragging teams into it that had 0 to do with it), while MLG is squarely in the 2nd group now and people love them for it. As for this whole debacle, most of the drama threads on TL over the last few weeks went from 'omg the TSL coach is a bastard' to 'I always knew the TSL coach was a cute little puppy', with the entire community viewpoint switching around each time there was a new bit of information. Best thing we can all do is just shut up about it for now until we actually have some explanation from the korean side for what happened. There's a big chance that the NASL is in the right here for a change, but I'd rather hold off judgement until there's you know, actual information. What you're all forgetting is another big reason MLG became amazing after Dallas was because of Korean participation. On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote:
Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? DA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations. LOL if you trust Xeris' word blindly because he 'isn't some random.' He's one of the sketchiest people in SC2 and values money/power over anything else. This is the guy who wouldn't return seats to two fans who had earned them at MLG because he thought he was more important than them. I'd say that contributes to 30% of it. A lot of it came from efforts by the MLG staff Pulling arbitrary numbers out of your ass. Sorry but ultimately for most viewers, watching the highest level games matter. It was the one saving grace of NASL's season 1 finals, which had horrible production and legendarily long wait times between matches. On August 15 2011 05:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 05:39 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 05:36 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:28 Dexx wrote:On August 15 2011 05:27 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote:
My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff? season 2 qualifier began when season 1 wasn't over yet. No one at that time know how NASL handled stuffs. What did NASL do wrong after Season1? 1) The LAN finals were awful. Cost players lots of money to fly over (since they only provided $500) and play 1 bo3. 2) Asking another $500 to play in season 2 while not paying back $250 from season 1 yet (yeah i know the contract, it's still the truth that they have to put $750 out) Let's try and be factually correct please. From what I read, the teams that paid their deposit the first time around had the option to simply up their depost. If they deposited 250 USD in S1, and are playing S2 again, they'd only have to wire another 250 USD over, not an additional 500. (500 still is a ridiculous amount tho) If it makes sure that players show up for their matches as scheduled, I think 500 is fine. Actually 500 is probably not enough as evidenced in S1 when there were multiple times that people didn't show up and highly inconvenienced their opponents, especially the korean players, who were already playing at 4am and then asked to wait sometimes for up to 4 hours for the opponents who still didn't show up. A second deposit upon a first deposit is sketchy as shit, and not reasonable at all. The only reason a deposit should be increased is for people who actually violated the terms in season 1. If my apartment managers doubled my deposit after my first lease was up, yeah I'd get the fuck out of here. What if the reason your apartment manager increased the deposit was because of alot of your neighbors (not you, I'm saying your neighbors) trashing their places, the owners having to pay for repairs losing money because of it (even with the deposits thrown in) and the owners of the building saying screw that, raise the deposits for everybody, we're not taking any chances on getting screwed again. Yeah it sucks for you and yes you certainly have the right to leave after the lease is up. But can you really blame the owners for protecting themselves against losing money?
If they increased the security deposit for new renters, that would make sense. Or for returning renters who did trash the place (in real life they wouldn't be allowed back, but in NASL-analogy people who WO'd first season are welcomed back) that would also make sense.
But if I played for a full season with no issues, why am I being punished? And if they're raising the deposit for financial reasons, then that's basically a ponzi scheme, using season 2's money to pay for season 1.
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It's always a race to put your spin out first. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day who was right or wrong, the result is the same. The Korean teams will continue to have the most fans and best players, while NASL will struggle to gain any traction.
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On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote:
Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? There is 0 korean participation currently. you mean to tell me that not a single korean doesnt want to participate in the NASL (i mean not the most proffesional tournament but still). Fly out one weeeknd for a round of 32 for a shot at GSL code s prize pool. The most important question is why is there such heavy korean attendance at MLG and none for NASL. MLG is a three day long battle of non-stop games with a significantly smaller prize pool. KoreaCon has to be blocking player participation since most koreans would love the chance to participate. Also what about Assembly NADA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations.
Says who? And it isn't just "one weekend" when you have to dedicate quite a bit of time for the rest of the season.
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On August 15 2011 08:27 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:26 Xeris wrote:On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote:
Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON. Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark. Why did you make assumptions to begin with? It's not like the public was clamoring for you to pin someone to blame. Your post could literally have been "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL" and all this shit could have been avoided. Instead what you did was basically libel in an attempt to absolve yourself of all responsibility.
Ok lets say he did what you say and just said "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL". Do you really think that the fans would have said, 'Oh, ok NASL thats fine, we don't want to know WHY they aren't playing"
The fans would be calling for Xeris head on a stake and demanding to know what happened.
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Well despite all of the drama and who know what that is going on, the way I see it is this....
NASL players have to participate in a ten week qualifying league and playoffs where you have to play your matches at 4 am for Koreans - and they have to pay a deposit to do this.
Then if you qualify, you have to fly all the way to the US for potentially one Bo3 - with the league only barely covering your expenses getting there - taking it out of your prize money.
Then the tournament is won by someone who went through an 'Open Tournament' that was ran in week 10, and gets poached from his Korean team.
If I was a Korean, I wouldn't be participating in the league either.. what exactly do you get out of it? I would just wait until the Open Tournament and do the same Puma did...
It sucks for the fans who want to watch the games, it sucks for NASL who will likely get less viewers and revenue, but the league and format should support the players as well - and give rewards / incentive to compete.
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I love how everybody just eats up what was said instead of actually trying to read between the lines.
Everything said is always going to be PR based. EVERYTHING. That said, Pr is about positioning. And the truth probably lies somewhere in between.
This phrase comes to mind.
Everybody wants peace but secretly prepares for war. In other words, its best to secure your image but it is natural to positon yourself accordingly to acquire the most benefit.
This is a perfect example of that. Who knows what to believe.
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EPT
