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On August 16 2011 06:19 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 06:15 Soap wrote:
Because the korean teams acted terribly, and that should be exposed so others can be cautious when dealing with them. SlayerS withdrew amicably and NASL did not threw a fuss about that. I think the korean's legitimately wanted to play, but since they were forced to sign the contracts so early, they did so in good faith that negotiations would be worked out since they were already known and being presented to NASL back in june. fast forward 2 months, and basically negotiations didn't happen, so they had to withdraw. I think the koreans probably really wanted to play, they just wanted to make sure they were treated the way they would expect to be treated, especially for enduring a 10 week long season. Some miscommunication probably happened on both ends but I don't think it's fair to just flat out call the koreans bastards for pulling out late, they probably only did it so late because they legitimately thought they could fix things in time to make both sides happy but that didn't so they didn't. People need to get off this Korean hatewagon.
Also I think a lot of people feel like the Koreans have put up some pretty arrogant demands considering they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous. I mean I think it would be nice to see some Koreans but at the end of the day their demands just seem insane. Maybe in time they will come to their senses and realize it is 100,000 dollars for a mostly online tournament but in the meantime I feel like they should get a little hate for their arrogant attitude and the fact that they seem to have no business sense with contracts and such.
People need to get on this Korean hatewagon.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 16 2011 06:53 SlipperySnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 06:19 Kazeyonoma wrote:On August 16 2011 06:15 Soap wrote:
Because the korean teams acted terribly, and that should be exposed so others can be cautious when dealing with them. SlayerS withdrew amicably and NASL did not threw a fuss about that. I think the korean's legitimately wanted to play, but since they were forced to sign the contracts so early, they did so in good faith that negotiations would be worked out since they were already known and being presented to NASL back in june. fast forward 2 months, and basically negotiations didn't happen, so they had to withdraw. I think the koreans probably really wanted to play, they just wanted to make sure they were treated the way they would expect to be treated, especially for enduring a 10 week long season. Some miscommunication probably happened on both ends but I don't think it's fair to just flat out call the koreans bastards for pulling out late, they probably only did it so late because they legitimately thought they could fix things in time to make both sides happy but that didn't so they didn't. People need to get off this Korean hatewagon. Also I think a lot of people feel like the Koreans have put up some pretty arrogant demands considering they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous. I mean I think it would be nice to see some Koreans but at the end of the day their demands just seem insane. Maybe in time they will come to their senses and realize it is 100,000 dollars for a mostly online tournament but in the meantime I feel like they should get a little hate for their arrogant attitude and the fact that they seem to have no business sense with contracts and such. People need to get on this Korean hatewagon.
wow did you really just promote hate lol?
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On August 16 2011 06:53 SlipperySnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 06:19 Kazeyonoma wrote:On August 16 2011 06:15 Soap wrote:
Because the korean teams acted terribly, and that should be exposed so others can be cautious when dealing with them. SlayerS withdrew amicably and NASL did not threw a fuss about that. I think the korean's legitimately wanted to play, but since they were forced to sign the contracts so early, they did so in good faith that negotiations would be worked out since they were already known and being presented to NASL back in june. fast forward 2 months, and basically negotiations didn't happen, so they had to withdraw. I think the koreans probably really wanted to play, they just wanted to make sure they were treated the way they would expect to be treated, especially for enduring a 10 week long season. Some miscommunication probably happened on both ends but I don't think it's fair to just flat out call the koreans bastards for pulling out late, they probably only did it so late because they legitimately thought they could fix things in time to make both sides happy but that didn't so they didn't. People need to get off this Korean hatewagon. Also I think a lot of people feel like the Koreans have put up some pretty arrogant demands considering they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous. I mean I think it would be nice to see some Koreans but at the end of the day their demands just seem insane. Maybe in time they will come to their senses and realize it is 100,000 dollars for a mostly online tournament but in the meantime I feel like they should get a little hate for their arrogant attitude and the fact that they seem to have no business sense with contracts and such. People need to get on this Korean hatewagon.
No people need to get off the hatewagon! GO KOREA!!!
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People need to get off the hatewagon period, both for the Koreans and NASL. Save the hate for people who really deserve it, cause there a plenty of them out there.
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On August 16 2011 06:53 SlipperySnake wrote:
they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous
Can you name another tournament that asks you to put a deposit down just to qualify? 10 weeks is a long time, and some of their management for Koreans wasn't the best.
Making July wait from something like 2 am to 8 am, because they couldn't get White-Ra on the phone comes to mind. Then if you saw the amount of lag during some gamesRainbow - Morrow (the drop screen came up constantly) or Ensnare - Darkforce (Ensnare even asked for a delay to let the lag clear up, which they didn't allow) maybe the qualifier isn't so simple/easy for them.
Also, let's be honest about how much money they can win. The 100k is split among the the 16 finalists. From last season's prize pool, finishing 5-8 net you 1.5k. Which is about the cost of a plane ticket from Korea to LA (time of year dependent of course). That doesn't include hotel, and means that Koreans finishing in the bottom half don't make *any* money.
Of course Europeans have the same travel problems, but foreign teams are more set up for travel with actual travel budgets (something Korean teams don't do to my knowledge), but even then they have to pick and choose where to send their players. Fnatic had a post about the cost prohibitions of sending players to train/compete in Korea after all.
Last, the cost of living (and subsequently income) in Korea is lower than in (most of) Europe / America so what's a 'reasonable' price to the West for travel is actually much higher relatively speaking for Koreans.
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On August 16 2011 06:53 SlipperySnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 06:19 Kazeyonoma wrote:On August 16 2011 06:15 Soap wrote:
Because the korean teams acted terribly, and that should be exposed so others can be cautious when dealing with them. SlayerS withdrew amicably and NASL did not threw a fuss about that. I think the korean's legitimately wanted to play, but since they were forced to sign the contracts so early, they did so in good faith that negotiations would be worked out since they were already known and being presented to NASL back in june. fast forward 2 months, and basically negotiations didn't happen, so they had to withdraw. I think the koreans probably really wanted to play, they just wanted to make sure they were treated the way they would expect to be treated, especially for enduring a 10 week long season. Some miscommunication probably happened on both ends but I don't think it's fair to just flat out call the koreans bastards for pulling out late, they probably only did it so late because they legitimately thought they could fix things in time to make both sides happy but that didn't so they didn't. People need to get off this Korean hatewagon. Also I think a lot of people feel like the Koreans have put up some pretty arrogant demands considering they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous. I mean I think it would be nice to see some Koreans but at the end of the day their demands just seem insane. Maybe in time they will come to their senses and realize it is 100,000 dollars for a mostly online tournament but in the meantime I feel like they should get a little hate for their arrogant attitude and the fact that they seem to have no business sense with contracts and such. People need to get on this Korean hatewagon.
First, read Wuster's response (above) which does an amazing job counter-acting your point by analyzing the facts.
Second, realize that everything is relative. What you consider arrogant behavior, others may consider normal behavior. Poor kids in America may think that rich kids are spoiled, but poor people in 3rd world countries think that poor Americans are spoiled. In other words, who gives a shit if players from other countries think it's a good opportunity -- all that matters for the Koreans making a decision is whether or not it's a good opportunity for THEM.
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On August 16 2011 07:19 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 06:53 SlipperySnake wrote:
they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous Can you name another tournament that asks you to put a deposit down just to qualify? 10 weeks is a long time, and some of their management for Koreans wasn't the best. Making July wait from something like 2 am to 8 am, because they couldn't get White-Ra on the phone comes to mind. Then if you saw the amount of lag during some gamesRainbow - Morrow (the drop screen came up constantly) or Ensnare - Darkforce (Ensnare even asked for a delay to let the lag clear up, which they didn't allow) maybe the qualifier isn't so simple/easy for them. Also, let's be honest about how much money they can win. The 100k is split among the the 16 finalists. From last season's prize pool, finishing 5-8 net you 1.5k. Which is about the cost of a plane ticket from Korea to LA (time of year dependent of course). That doesn't include hotel, and means that Koreans finishing in the bottom half don't make *any* money. Of course Europeans have the same travel problems, but foreign teams are more set up for travel with actual travel budgets (something Korean teams don't do to my knowledge), but even then they have to pick and choose where to send their players. Fnatic had a post about the cost prohibitions of sending players to train/compete in Korea after all. Last, the cost of living (and subsequently income) in Korea is lower than in (most of) Europe / America so what's a 'reasonable' price to the West for travel is actually much higher relatively speaking for Koreans.
As to your first question are you serious? NASL having a different model (Online Season) doesn't mean that the request for a deposit is ridiculous. In fact to even question this seems kind of stupid considering this entire argument is validation for having that deposit be there. Blah, whatever it just seems so ridiculous that I am just going to move on.
I don't think I ever argued that there was absolutely no hurdles but it just seems like the only perspective here is a Korean one about what they want to do. All I am saying is that if you look at a player like Puma and then tell me the travel expenses just don't match the potential upside expect me to act pretty damn surprised. Many of the Koreans had little trouble flying all the way out to MLG (much smaller prize pool) outside of the exchange to try to climb their way through the open bracket so I am sorry if I am pretty damn skeptical.
This is all idle talk though because the real point is why should NASL care, after all they are a NA league. So if people want to participate from other places it shouldn't be their responsibility first and foremost to cover all the outside costs but just build the prize pool until it compensates for the costs.
I guess I will end by saying that I think that maybe what I perceive as this Korean arrogance when it comes to spending travel money is just fostered by the MLG-GSL exchange system where players and teams just expect to be paid to go and win money and given ridiculous advantages when doing so. I am not saying that they aren't acting practically but what I am saying is that they shouldn't get a free pass for breaking contracts and probably severely damaging the legitimacy of the qualifying for S2.
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On August 16 2011 14:59 SlipperySnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:19 Wuster wrote:On August 16 2011 06:53 SlipperySnake wrote:
they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous Can you name another tournament that asks you to put a deposit down just to qualify? 10 weeks is a long time, and some of their management for Koreans wasn't the best. Making July wait from something like 2 am to 8 am, because they couldn't get White-Ra on the phone comes to mind. Then if you saw the amount of lag during some gamesRainbow - Morrow (the drop screen came up constantly) or Ensnare - Darkforce (Ensnare even asked for a delay to let the lag clear up, which they didn't allow) maybe the qualifier isn't so simple/easy for them. Also, let's be honest about how much money they can win. The 100k is split among the the 16 finalists. From last season's prize pool, finishing 5-8 net you 1.5k. Which is about the cost of a plane ticket from Korea to LA (time of year dependent of course). That doesn't include hotel, and means that Koreans finishing in the bottom half don't make *any* money. Of course Europeans have the same travel problems, but foreign teams are more set up for travel with actual travel budgets (something Korean teams don't do to my knowledge), but even then they have to pick and choose where to send their players. Fnatic had a post about the cost prohibitions of sending players to train/compete in Korea after all. Last, the cost of living (and subsequently income) in Korea is lower than in (most of) Europe / America so what's a 'reasonable' price to the West for travel is actually much higher relatively speaking for Koreans. As to your first question are you serious? NASL having a different model (Online Season) doesn't mean that the request for a deposit is ridiculous. In fact to even question this seems kind of stupid considering this entire argument is validation for having that deposit be there. Blah, whatever it just seems so ridiculous that I am just going to move on. I don't think I ever argued that there was absolutely no hurdles but it just seems like the only perspective here is a Korean one about what they want to do. All I am saying is that if you look at a player like Puma and then tell me the travel expenses just don't match the potential upside expect me to act pretty damn surprised. Many of the Koreans had little trouble flying all the way out to MLG (much smaller prize pool) outside of the exchange to try to climb their way through the open bracket so I am sorry if I am pretty damn skeptical. This is all idle talk though because the real point is why should NASL care, after all they are a NA league. So if people want to participate from other places it shouldn't be their responsibility first and foremost to cover all the outside costs but just build the prize pool until it compensates for the costs. I guess I will end by saying that I think that maybe what I perceive as this Korean arrogance when it comes to spending travel money is just fostered by the MLG-GSL exchange system where players and teams just expect to be paid to go and win money and given ridiculous advantages when doing so. I am not saying that they aren't acting practically but what I am saying is that they shouldn't get a free pass for breaking contracts and probably severely damaging the legitimacy of the qualifying for S2.
You points may very well be valid or they may not be. But regardless you lose all credibility when you actually sit there and say lets all jump on the Korean hatewagon, in least in my eyes.
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Having a deposit when... American leagues have a history of evaporating (read: CPL) for 1 grand for a mostly online league is a bit steep.
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This unfortunate series of events is simply due to lost in translation...
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Many ppl think this changes facts! NO. There was a collective descision to deny participation, because as Korean they wanted premium seats... that's not how the world works, nobody can assume rights because you think you deserve a special status. This is hurting eSports... its like Federer and Nadal dont come to the US Open because they dont get free hotel and flight tickets, its absurd! I think everyone agrees.
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So much misinformation and crappy communication. It's sad that these mistakes probably caused an irreparable gap.
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On August 17 2011 05:31 epb1982 wrote:
Many ppl think this changes facts! NO. There was a collective descision to deny participation, because as Korean they wanted premium seats... that's not how the world works, nobody can assume rights because you think you deserve a special status. This is hurting eSports... its like Federer and Nadal dont come to the US Open because they dont get free hotel and flight tickets, its absurd! I think everyone agrees.
NEVER says stuff like "i think everyone agrees" 99.99% of the time you are wrong.
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On August 16 2011 14:59 SlipperySnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:19 Wuster wrote:On August 16 2011 06:53 SlipperySnake wrote:
they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous Can you name another tournament that asks you to put a deposit down just to qualify? 10 weeks is a long time, and some of their management for Koreans wasn't the best. Making July wait from something like 2 am to 8 am, because they couldn't get White-Ra on the phone comes to mind. Then if you saw the amount of lag during some gamesRainbow - Morrow (the drop screen came up constantly) or Ensnare - Darkforce (Ensnare even asked for a delay to let the lag clear up, which they didn't allow) maybe the qualifier isn't so simple/easy for them. Also, let's be honest about how much money they can win. The 100k is split among the the 16 finalists. From last season's prize pool, finishing 5-8 net you 1.5k. Which is about the cost of a plane ticket from Korea to LA (time of year dependent of course). That doesn't include hotel, and means that Koreans finishing in the bottom half don't make *any* money. Of course Europeans have the same travel problems, but foreign teams are more set up for travel with actual travel budgets (something Korean teams don't do to my knowledge), but even then they have to pick and choose where to send their players. Fnatic had a post about the cost prohibitions of sending players to train/compete in Korea after all. Last, the cost of living (and subsequently income) in Korea is lower than in (most of) Europe / America so what's a 'reasonable' price to the West for travel is actually much higher relatively speaking for Koreans. As to your first question are you serious? NASL having a different model (Online Season) doesn't mean that the request for a deposit is ridiculous. In fact to even question this seems kind of stupid considering this entire argument is validation for having that deposit be there. Blah, whatever it just seems so ridiculous that I am just going to move on. I don't think I ever argued that there was absolutely no hurdles but it just seems like the only perspective here is a Korean one about what they want to do. All I am saying is that if you look at a player like Puma and then tell me the travel expenses just don't match the potential upside expect me to act pretty damn surprised. Many of the Koreans had little trouble flying all the way out to MLG (much smaller prize pool) outside of the exchange to try to climb their way through the open bracket so I am sorry if I am pretty damn skeptical. This is all idle talk though because the real point is why should NASL care, after all they are a NA league. So if people want to participate from other places it shouldn't be their responsibility first and foremost to cover all the outside costs but just build the prize pool until it compensates for the costs. I guess I will end by saying that I think that maybe what I perceive as this Korean arrogance when it comes to spending travel money is just fostered by the MLG-GSL exchange system where players and teams just expect to be paid to go and win money and given ridiculous advantages when doing so. I am not saying that they aren't acting practically but what I am saying is that they shouldn't get a free pass for breaking contracts and probably severely damaging the legitimacy of the qualifying for S2.
IPL is online and as far as I know neither of their seasons had a deposit. Same with TSL 3. Having a regular season where the players aren't compensated for but can be penalized is a new model. But I guess we can agree to disagree on this one.
If you only use Puma as an example of what can be achieved, then that's a fallacy. Boxer, Zenio, Alive all came out way behind. Even Squirtle and the other 5 - 8th place finishers probably didn't take home a whole lot, if anything.
Bringing up MLG is interesting, because for Columbus there were rumors/talk that Slayers wanted to send Boxer, Cella, *someone* to help out MMA. But guess what? They just didn't have the money. Of course MMA won and had an insanely huge response so Slayers was able to get some money for Ganzi and Alicia to show up at Anaheim.
Other than them, the only Korean team player was Choya, who was paid for by FXO, part of their close relationship that led to fOu getting bought by FXO of course. fOu, which should be noted, was struggling to make ends meet before the buy out.
I agree with you about the NASL though, they were too ambitious and were caught flatfooted when the Koreans applied en-mass to Season 1. Even though it was an international league (I don't believe it was ever intended to be NA only) it was a 'Western' league (see all the communication problems with non-English speaking managers/teams). And if the overall prize pool grows to the point where competing is worth your while, then the Koreans will happily come back without demands. But they obviously don't yet feel that way and got too hasty in signing up over the big prize pool. They definitely aren't blameless in this mess, but there's no reason to hate them or dismiss their concerns.
Korean teams just aren't very global to the extent that foreign teams are. Look at the sponsors of the Broodwar teams, how many have any presence outside of S. Korea? They just weren't set up to care about reaching out to the foreign scene. That's changing now and it's not surprising that the most global of the Korean teams (Slayers with Razer and Intel sponsorships) is the only one that actually sent players to Anaheim on their own dime. Nor is it surprisingly that many Korean teams have formed partnerships with foreign teams, I'm guessing to cover travel expenses rather than trying to squeeze money from their more local sponsors or events (Koreans had the same complaints with Dreamhack after all).
That last part is all speculation on my part though.
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I hope this issue eventually gets translated properly. From what I see in this article/translation it seems to me that SC2Con is turning into Kespa and making decisions for the players.
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On August 16 2011 07:19 Wuster wrote:
Of course Europeans have the same travel problems, but foreign teams are more set up for travel with actual travel budgets (something Korean teams don't do to my knowledge), but even then they have to pick and choose where to send their players. Fnatic had a post about the cost prohibitions of sending players to train/compete in Korea after all.
Doesnt matter you cant treat players different you have to treat them equal. EU players had the exact same problems they didnt do insane demands and didnt sign a contract to shortly after break it.
it feel like we dealing with primadonnas or something
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I loved Liquid Ret reaction on NASLtv... just as it is: the Korean's are stupid for claiming special treatment and missing the opportunity for great achievements and exposure! he said it all, simple and clear
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I'm still waiting to see how this thing will turn out, wonder if we ever get to hear the truth, go conspiracy theories!
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Eh, I think a lot of people are assuming malicious intent when I think the real situation was just gross miscommunication. That said, I do think the Koreans handled it...poorly. It's relatively dishonorable to pull out of a contract so late, and last time I checked honor still meant something in Korea.
To me, Boxer and SlayerS are the only ones who handled this correctly, in terms of pulling out early enough for the NASL to not be left high and dry. The way SC2Con handled it all wasn't real great. I think the Koreans absolutely have the right to refuse to play, but the timing was just really bad. This entire situation could have been avoided with better communication and earlier action by the Korean players and teams. If what we've read is the entire truth (and I'll admit it rarely is), than the NASL bent over backwards and for their effort got the short end of the stick. Again, I don't think the Koreans meant to do it that way, but that's how it happened, and it does look bad.
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EPT
