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Edit: I had to repeat this so many times that I believe it merits a spot here
s2con members: IM, MVP, NSHoSeo, oGs, Prime, StarTale, ZeNEX
Korean teams mentioned in NASL's announcement: oGs, StarTale, WeMadeFox, TSL, Prime
Korean teams NOT mentioned in NASL's announcement but are not participating in NASL: SlayerS, FXO Korea
Total of 7 teams withdrew from NASL. Only 3 of them are in S2CON.
Following is a tranlation by me from PlayXP, and parts from JSy's earlier tranlation. http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=3293365 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254543
NASL's allegations turn out to be baseless. - NASL apologizes for misrepresenting S2CON - NASL's allegations turn out to be baseless, according to coachs Lee Hyung Seop and Choi Yoon Sang
Starcraft II conference (S2CON) has released a statement that korean players' withdrawal from NASL season 2 is not related to S2CON. Through its official website, S2CON explained that the events leading to the recent NASL troubles were not actions taken under the supervision S2CON, but rather were actions taken by the individual teams. S2CON also clarifed that they have not transmitted nor received any official communication with NASL.
NASL replied that
To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
If, this was just the decision of a few of the teams, then I of course would like to apologize to SC2Con as an organization for mentioning their name.
...
So it's hard for me to know what is going on in Korea right now -- but I truly would like to apologize for using SC2Con incorrectly if it is indeed the case that the organization is not responsible!
However, in the same reply NASL also asserted that
However, I am particularly puzzled by several things: a) namely that FXO was arguing with SC2Con about sC participating in the NASL, and that the MVP team is currently trying to participate in NASL but being blocked by SC2Con.
alleging that S2CON is harming NASL.
PlayXP contacted coaches of FXO and MVP to get a clarification and this allegation turns out to be baseless.
Coach Lee Hyung Seop from FXO (Choya) told us that "The decision to withdraw was made because sC didn't wish to participate. We didn't have any kind of argument regarding participation in NASL with S2CON."
Coach Choi Yoon Sang from MVP also told us that "We are surpised to hear this since we never had an intention to participate in NASL. It is true that compLexity, our partner, suggested participation but we declined because it would be difficult for us to do so. This suggestion came after other korean teams have declined and there has been no direct contact with NASL."
Regarding an allegation that S2CON is blocking korean team's participation, coach choi countered NASL's account by saying that
"It is nonsense to suggest S2CON is blocking [our] participation. If we wanted to participate, we would do so regardless of whatever S2CON's wishes were."
There are rumors that S2CON is blocking korean team's participation in foreign scene. However, it's been confirmed that since their creation in Nov, 2010 S2CON has left the decision of participating in foreign events to each team's discretion and have not interfered in any way in this regard since.
Original article in Korean: + Show Spoiler +NASL 주장, 사실무근으로 확인 - NASL, 협의회 인지(認知) 잘못에 대해 사과 - 이형섭-최윤상 감독, NASL측 주장 사실무근 스타크래프트2 협의회(이하 협의회)가 '이번 NASL 시즌2에 한국 선수 참가 철회가 협의회와는 무관하다'는 입장을 발표했다. 협의회는 공식 홈페이지를 통해 참가 철회로 인한 분쟁은 각 게임단 자체적으로 진행된 내용이라 해명했다. 이어서 협의회는 NASL로부터 공식적인 내용을 전달하거나 받은 적도 없다고 밝혔다. 이 소식을 접한 NASL측은 “한국에서 진행되는 일을 정확하게 알지 못한다. 하지만, 우린 한국팀들의 공통된 결정을 들었고 첫 계약서에는 ‘스타크래프트2 한국 팀 협의회(SC2 Korean Team Committee)’라고 작성되어 있었다. 이후 계약 때에도 이렇게 작성되어 협의회라고 적은 것이다. 만약, 소수 팀들의 결정이었으면 스타2협의회(S2CON)에 사과하고 싶다”며 자신들의 실수에 사과하는 뜻을 내비쳤다. 하지만, 그는 “김승철(FXO소속, sC)와 MVP팀의 소속 선수들이 NASL에 참가하려 하는데 ‘S2CON’이 출전을 막고 있어 당황하고 있다”는 입장을 밝히며 ‘S2CON’가 NASL에 피해를 주고 있다고 주장했다.
이에 PlayXP는 김승철이 소속되어 있는 FXO의 이형섭 감독과 MVP의 최윤상 감독에게 확인해 본 결과 사실 무근인 것으로 확인됐다. 이형섭 감독은 “김승철 선수 본인이 출전하지 않기로 해 철회 한 것”이라며 “NASL 출전과 관련해 S2CON과 그 어떤 논쟁을 벌인 적이 없다”고 밝혔다. 최윤상 감독 또한 “처음부터 NASL에 출전할 의사가 없었는데 이런 말을 듣게 되어 황당하다. 형제 팀인 ‘compLexity’로부터 NASL 출전 제안을 받은 것은 사실이나, 팀 사정상 힘들어 정중히 거절했다, 또 이 제안은 한국 팀들의 출전 철회 후 온 것이고 NASL로부터 직접적인 교섭은 없었다”고 밝혔다. ‘S2CON’의 참가 저지에 대한 질문에는 “만약, 우리가 출전하고 싶었다면 협의회 의사와는 무관하게 출전할 수 있는데 출전을 저지한다니 웃기는 소리다”며 NASL측의 주장을 반박하기도 했다. 한편, 일각에선 ‘S2CON’이 국내 팀의 해외 진출을 막고 있는 것이란 설이 일고 있지만, S2CON은 지난 해 11월 발족 당시부터 해외 대회 출전 여부는 팀 자율에 맡겼으며 그에 따른 부분에 대해 관여한 바가 전혀 없는 것으로 확인 됐다. 글: 안영훈(ethan@playxp.com)
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The lack of effective communication around this issue is unfortunate
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in other words sc2con did nothing and got blamed for a crime they didnt commit and the korean teams just did not want to deal with NASL
lol
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Who really knows what is going on at this point? We'll probably never know the truth tbh
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Thanks for the translation. NASL seems to have some things to figure out. I enjoyed them for the amount of content produced; I could almost always find a game to watch. Hopefully they invite some of the great players from season 1 who didn't qualify for season 2 back in. I think they still have potential, but really need to work at it.
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Man I've completely lost track with what's going on here T_T All these different sides and I don't know which one is true
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Australia254 Posts
sC didn't wish to participate in NASL? That doesn't make any sense to me. Why would he attempt to qualify for the tournament in the first place?
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Lol, this drama is starting to look like a bunch of clanleaders using big words and creating something but ending up taking cheap shots at eachother on forums... People are trying, but it doesnt seem to work...
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good work, gives clarity into this situation.
these news not so good for the nasl image...
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I think this information is credible since FXOBoss expressed earlier prior to this statement that SC did in fact have no interest in the first place to play in NASL. So NASL's claim that SC2Con is blocking players from playing is completely baseless
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This may absolve SC2CON from scrutiny, but still raises the question of the individual contracts. The teams still knowingly signed the contract and then pulled out? Were there any playXP comments about that?
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On August 14 2011 21:58 Domination wrote: Who really knows what is going on at this point? We'll probably never know the truth tbh this! the whole situation right now is so weird :D And god damnit, suxx so badly that the information exchange between the Western and the Korean scenes always needs translations... :/
edit: and this would really bring up the question why non of the Koreans does wanna compete... Even if the decision wasnt "forced" by someone, i thought it made sense that the Korean teams decided together... But now the whole story doesnt make any sense at all^^
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This SC2CON confuses me... are they an organisation with power? Are they not a collection of teams? So, who is responsible for violating the signed contracts?
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On August 14 2011 22:03 Daniel C wrote: This may absolve SC2CON from scrutiny, but still raises the question of the individual contracts. The teams still knowingly signed the contract and then pulled out? Were there any playXP comments about that?
I'd say 1/2 are criticizing teams and 1/2 are saying wait for their response.
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On August 14 2011 22:03 Daniel C wrote: This may absolve SC2CON from scrutiny, but still raises the question of the individual contracts. The teams still knowingly signed the contract and then pulled out? Were there any playXP comments about that? So apparently this means that all the players are the ones to blame instead for suddenly pulling out in the last minute? Real classy.
Something's not right here...
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There has been so much drama the past couple of days.
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It was mentioned earlier that the players were made to confirm and sign contracts in late June before the NASL finals when things weren't ironed out yet. Issues about how the players were treated were raised well before the commencement of NASL season 2 and apparently those issues still haven't been addressed yet. Despite the issues, NASL went ahead with production ignoring the requests of the Korean players.
Subsequently, the Korean players withdrew because they were left with no choice. Boxer withdrew from season 2 well before this as speculation also points towards what everyone has been saying, that treatment of the players as well as the schedule were too difficult to commit and the prize money wasn't worth the trouble.
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I say lol to that statement.
Who really believes that second tier players who don't have a chance right now at winning the GSL and took part in the qualifiers for NASL 2 and in doing so displayed their commitment to NASL 2, now all of a sudden refuse to play, do this out of their free will?
I call Asian shenanigans behind this: When the collective has decided on something, the individual must follow suit. Otherwise he will suffer from it being an outcast in society.
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another case of mis-information, but this time it's not sc2con, it is nasl, is that correct?
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On August 14 2011 21:59 SenorChang wrote: Man I've completely lost track with what's going on here T_T All these different sides and I don't know which one is true
thats how i feel >.<
i think some things got lost in translation or something because it seems like one side or the other is getting misunderstood
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dont even know what to believe anymore!!! : d
everything seems so drama-full at the moment, maybe soon someone can actually just explain wtf is going on
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On August 14 2011 22:01 flakmonkey wrote: sC didn't wish to participate in NASL? That doesn't make any sense to me. Why would he attempt to qualify for the tournament in the first place? I'm wondering this as well. Didn't he win the Season 2 qualifiers? Seems very strange to express a will to not compete after that. :v
That said, this whole situation with NASL/SC2Con is very confusing.
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On August 14 2011 22:01 flakmonkey wrote: sC didn't wish to participate in NASL? That doesn't make any sense to me. Why would he attempt to qualify for the tournament in the first place? Perhaps he re-evaluated his short-term goals since his qualification attempt.
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They saw what happened with the experience of the players that participated and the outcome of NASL. Whether those problems have been addressed or not, it leaves a very bitter after taste and aversion of the players to participate in the events.
For example if you've been to a restaurant once and you've experienced terrible service, and served disgusting food; as well as everyone else saying the place is shit. Would you want to go there again? The likelihood you're going to give it a second chance is slim.
The players and coaches/managers attempted to request some benefits from NASL as repercussions to the disadvantages the players may suffer such as a disrupted sleep routine which may affect their play in other events (GSL which is vastly more important than NASL to the Koreans) as well as the fact that the teams themselves do not have much money to support so many securities deposits for their players that do qualify let alone the flight. FXO (previous Fou's budget was very tight as mentioned by Choya quoted by FXOBoss). I doubt other teams are in much better conditions except maybe Slayers. Even Slayers themselves do not wish to participate as shown by Boxer's withdrawal from season 2.
After all this shitstorm, I doubt the players would want to participate in season 2 as shown by many players withdrawal and aversion to even participate in the event.
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There is the smell of bullshit everywhere. The only things we know for sure are that korean players DID sign contracts to play. Then they tried to renegotiate, then they decided that they didnt want to play after all. Somewhere in between that mess was negotiating collectively with mr chae and players pulling out without reason. "Did not want to participate" is the poorest excuse ive ever heard. Why qualify and put your name down on paper?
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On August 14 2011 22:15 arbitrageur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:01 flakmonkey wrote: sC didn't wish to participate in NASL? That doesn't make any sense to me. Why would he attempt to qualify for the tournament in the first place? Perhaps he re-evaluated his short-term goals since his qualification attempt. i think sC attempted while they're still discussing with NASL about the money for plane tickets and hotels, but now since NASL declined that, sC refused to participate.
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Doesn't seem as if we'll ever know how it actually went down. Stinks of poor communication and everyone trying to save face.
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On August 14 2011 22:18 T0fuuu wrote: There is the smell of bullshit everywhere. The only things we know for sure are that korean players DID sign contracts to play. Then they tried to renegotiate, then they decided that they didnt want to play after all. Somewhere in between that mess was negotiating collectively with mr chae and players pulling out without reason. "Did not want to participate" is the poorest excuse ive ever heard. Why qualify and put your name down on paper?
We don't know who signed yet and who didn't. But it does sound like Korean players signed, then heard how shit it was since the finals took place after qualifiers. Then got disgusted and are trying to find ways to withdraw. Honestly NASL were piss poor in their whole management of the tournament.
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Right, all the teams just happened to withdraw independently, after all (most?) signing contracts and having their players even attempt to qualify
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So wtf is actually going on then? Im slightly lost here. why did the Korean teams drop out then? So late too. Something must have happened if you ask me.
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never trust one side, thats all there is to it, actually...dont believe anything =)
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Lol this is such a big clusterfuck now I really don't know what's going on anymore.
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On August 14 2011 22:22 eu.exodus wrote: So wtf is actually going on then? Im slightly lost here. why did the Korean teams drop out then? So late too. Something must have happened if you ask me. The teams and the players decided to not participate for their own reasons that were not related to SC2Con
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On August 14 2011 22:21 Williammm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:18 T0fuuu wrote: There is the smell of bullshit everywhere. The only things we know for sure are that korean players DID sign contracts to play. Then they tried to renegotiate, then they decided that they didnt want to play after all. Somewhere in between that mess was negotiating collectively with mr chae and players pulling out without reason. "Did not want to participate" is the poorest excuse ive ever heard. Why qualify and put your name down on paper? We don't know who signed yet and who didn't. But it does sound like Korean players signed, then heard how shit it was since the finals took place after qualifiers. Then got disgusted and are trying to find ways to withdraw. Honestly NASL were piss poor in their whole management of the tournament.
On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote: WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.
So we know at least those three teams signed.
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On August 14 2011 22:22 {ToT}ColmA wrote: never trust one side, thats all there is to it, actually...dont believe anything =)
QFT, all we can say now is NASL just took a dive in star studdedness and skill level
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On August 14 2011 22:18 T0fuuu wrote: There is the smell of bullshit everywhere. The only things we know for sure are that korean players DID sign contracts to play. Then they tried to renegotiate, then they decided that they didnt want to play after all. Somewhere in between that mess was negotiating collectively with mr chae and players pulling out without reason. "Did not want to participate" is the poorest excuse ive ever heard. Why qualify and put your name down on paper? FXOboss confirmed that sC did not wish to play in the FXO leaves sc2con thread.
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On August 14 2011 22:23 Azureflames wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:21 Williammm wrote:On August 14 2011 22:18 T0fuuu wrote: There is the smell of bullshit everywhere. The only things we know for sure are that korean players DID sign contracts to play. Then they tried to renegotiate, then they decided that they didnt want to play after all. Somewhere in between that mess was negotiating collectively with mr chae and players pulling out without reason. "Did not want to participate" is the poorest excuse ive ever heard. Why qualify and put your name down on paper? We don't know who signed yet and who didn't. But it does sound like Korean players signed, then heard how shit it was since the finals took place after qualifiers. Then got disgusted and are trying to find ways to withdraw. Honestly NASL were piss poor in their whole management of the tournament. Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote: WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2. So we know at least those three teams signed.
Yeah but which players though? This seems more like an individual thing, then the players went crying to their teams about the change of heart
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Right now Sc2Con seems like the most worthless SC2 entity that keeps on appearing in bad SC2 press releases.
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On August 14 2011 22:25 Williammm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:23 Azureflames wrote:On August 14 2011 22:21 Williammm wrote:On August 14 2011 22:18 T0fuuu wrote: There is the smell of bullshit everywhere. The only things we know for sure are that korean players DID sign contracts to play. Then they tried to renegotiate, then they decided that they didnt want to play after all. Somewhere in between that mess was negotiating collectively with mr chae and players pulling out without reason. "Did not want to participate" is the poorest excuse ive ever heard. Why qualify and put your name down on paper? We don't know who signed yet and who didn't. But it does sound like Korean players signed, then heard how shit it was since the finals took place after qualifiers. Then got disgusted and are trying to find ways to withdraw. Honestly NASL were piss poor in their whole management of the tournament. On August 13 2011 02:57 NASL.tv wrote: WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2. So we know at least those three teams signed. Yeah but which players though? This seems more like an individual thing, then the players went crying to their teams about the change of heart
The way it's phrased seems to imply all the players from those teams expected to participate signed, but I suppose that could also not be the case. Meh.
edit: And as far as an 'individual' thing, what makes you think it was an individual thing? The way the Korean articles seem to be portraying it is that every single person made their own independent decision and they all made the same one. Seems really odd that not even a single person would opt to go, especially after the announcement that nearly all Korean players were pulling out. You'd think at least ONE, if not more, would opt to go due to the very high probability of placing higher and making some good money.
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Now that FXO has left the SC2con organization I'm inclined to believe that Koreans are lying about this. I think there is a conspiracy within most of the korean teams to either get their way or the highway.
I mean think about it, if they can pose special requirements to NASL, what stops them for posing requirements to dreamhack, ISL, IPL, etc...
Hopefully Blizzard steps in if things get too out of hand and realize that global e-sports is more important than few korean teams.
I also think GOMTV has a lot of saying just because of the new partnership with MSL.
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Wait, if this is true then why did FXOBoss just withdraw FXO from SC2Con?
I really wish we could get a straight run-down 
I hope things work out for the best though! I've always felt that NASL is a wonderful organization. I think, despite the loss of Koreans, I will still buy a ticket for next season! Just to show my support.
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This Drama is getting really confusing, I can only make out that there's a heavy dispute between all these parties, I hope this can be worked out, or clarified
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This shit is so ridiculous. Whether it's EG, Coach Lee, NASL, SC2Con, FXO or whatever, these organizations need to act like professionals and work out their differences in private behind the scenes rather than taking the fight onto community sites and writing kneejerk QQ posts at every first slight.
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On August 14 2011 22:31 MagnusHyperion wrote:Wait, if this is true then why did FXOBoss just withdraw FXO from SC2Con? I really wish we could get a straight run-down  I hope things work out for the best though! I've always felt that NASL is a wonderful organization. I think, despite the loss of Koreans, I will still buy a ticket for next season! Just to show my support.
You realize these are two completely different situations, right?
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To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place.
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On August 14 2011 22:34 red4ce wrote: This shit is so ridiculous. Whether it's EG, Coach Lee, NASL, SC2Con, FXO or whatever, these organizations need to act like professionals and work out their differences in private behind the scenes rather than taking the fight onto community sites and writing kneejerk QQ posts at every first slight.
agree, this never ending drama is so absurd. Im getting tired of it. (at first it was fun, now i just get tired and sick of it)
please, sit down in the boat
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On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place.
so dont sign the contract?
nasl have done nothing wrong.
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On August 14 2011 22:34 red4ce wrote: This shit is so ridiculous. Whether it's EG, Coach Lee, NASL, SC2Con, FXO or whatever, these organizations need to act like professionals and work out their differences in private behind the scenes rather than taking the fight onto community sites and writing kneejerk QQ posts at every first slight. You are right. This is getting ridiculous and very confusing. If this is a new kind of PR then wow it's a mindboggling technique.
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United States5162 Posts
On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place.
You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all.
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Okay. Several things/possibilities going on in my mind.
1. Korean politics between the teams and the S2CON. The usual blackmail stuff. 2. Lack of communication between NASL and effectively anyone in Korea. They should get a Korean liason or PR rep. Using the media/public forums to establish communication is stupid. 3. S2CON, NASL and other parties using TL.net as their media outlet. It's ridiculous. It's unprofessional. Use twitter or your own website or a proper news outlet, and let a TL member link that source here. Using TL as the first means of public communication is amateurish.
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It seems like S2CON has expressed their opinion of participation in NASL but has made them 'aware' that they 'may choose to make their own decisions' hint hint WE DONT WANT YOU TO BUT U CAN IF U WANT TO ANYWAYS.
politics.
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Here we go again. We really need sub-forum for sc2 drama
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On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. Well maybe in USA but I know a couple of countries where a lot of deals are sealed with a nothing more than a formality.
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On August 14 2011 22:39 tyCe wrote: Okay. Several things/possibilities going on in my mind.
1. Korean politics between the teams and the S2CON. The usual blackmail stuff. 2. Lack of communication between NASL and effectively anyone in Korea. They should get a Korean liason or PR rep. Using the media/public forums to establish communication is stupid. 3. S2CON, NASL and other parties using TL.net as their media outlet. It's ridiculous. It's unprofessional. Use twitter or your own website or a proper news outlet, and let a TL member link that source here. Using TL as the first means of public communication is amateurish.
S2CON made official statements, one regarding NASL and another regarding FXO in their website, which are translated by TL members.
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United States5162 Posts
On August 14 2011 22:46 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. Well maybe in USA but I know a couple of countries where a lot of deals are sealed with a nothing more than a formality.
Really? That's crazy imo. I don't see how you can agree to something and not put it in writing. Don't get me wrong, I understand preliminary agreements and such are often made on a verbal basis, but they're always written into contracts at some point before everything is supposed to happen.
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Well it seems communicating with Korean teams is hard. Even FXO, and they are in Korea, were dealing supposedly with someone from sc2con, but later we find out he actually does not speak for teams/managers and players. It seems that sc2con is kind of disorganized as rumors are flying everywhere and since there is no proper channel they are the only thing people trying to communicate with sc2con have to work with.
NASL should not have publicized the rumors (about sC and MvP team), on the other hand all this denial from sc2con and Korean teams at this point is starting to look more than suspicious. Especially since it is not like this is the only case of them not really having good grasp on the situation as seen in the whole TSL thing. A lot of coverup going everywhere and for the time being it seems noone is to be trusted, so frankly responses from sc2con and Korean teams are just as useless and untrustworthy as NASL statements (probably more).
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On August 14 2011 22:48 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:46 AlBundy wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. Well maybe in USA but I know a couple of countries where a lot of deals are sealed with a nothing more than a formality. Really? That's crazy imo. I don't see how you can agree to something and not put it in writing. It may be related to the country's culture, some people have a traditionnal way of doing business. But in this case, you are right, NASL and Koreans absolutely need contracts, and need to enforce them.
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Why can’t NASL just realize that the Koreans do not want to participate in the league. IMO they look kind of pathetic begging the Koreans to play. NASL should not cater to anyone, just let the players who want an opportunity “apply” and then pick from those.
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Wow nasl really jumped the gun on their accusations. They should have said that "korean teams are not participating in NASL anymore" and left it at that instead of making baseless accusations.
Pretty ridiculous and unproffesional on NASL's part since they seem to pretty much have no idea whats going on.
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On August 14 2011 22:48 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:46 AlBundy wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. Well maybe in USA but I know a couple of countries where a lot of deals are sealed with a nothing more than a formality. Really? That's crazy imo. I don't see how you can agree to something and not put it in writing. Don't get me wrong, I understand preliminary agreements and such are often made on a verbal basis, but they're always written into contracts at some point before everything is supposed to happen. In more than few places oral contracts are as binding as written one, but you need to be able to prove that they actually happened in case of court dispute.
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On August 14 2011 22:53 Ferox77 wrote: Why can’t NASL just realize that the Koreans do not want to participate in the league. IMO they look kind of pathetic begging the Koreans to play. NASL should not cater to anyone, just let the players who want an opportunity “apply” and then pick from those. It is kind of a problem as Koreans applied.
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On August 14 2011 22:39 tyCe wrote: Okay. Several things/possibilities going on in my mind.
1. Korean politics between the teams and the S2CON. The usual blackmail stuff. 2. Lack of communication between NASL and effectively anyone in Korea. They should get a Korean liason or PR rep. Using the media/public forums to establish communication is stupid. 3. S2CON, NASL and other parties using TL.net as their media outlet. It's ridiculous. It's unprofessional. Use twitter or your own website or a proper news outlet, and let a TL member link that source here. Using TL as the first means of public communication is amateurish. That would be NASL doing that , not sc2con or the korean teams. Just NASL, it is amateurish and they should really hold their tongues anyways until they know whats going on.
"The korean teams do no wish to participate in NASL and have withdrawn" its simple its effective and it doesnt cause any drama.
I dont see why they couldnt just say that.
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On August 14 2011 22:56 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:39 tyCe wrote: Okay. Several things/possibilities going on in my mind.
1. Korean politics between the teams and the S2CON. The usual blackmail stuff. 2. Lack of communication between NASL and effectively anyone in Korea. They should get a Korean liason or PR rep. Using the media/public forums to establish communication is stupid. 3. S2CON, NASL and other parties using TL.net as their media outlet. It's ridiculous. It's unprofessional. Use twitter or your own website or a proper news outlet, and let a TL member link that source here. Using TL as the first means of public communication is amateurish. That would be NASL doing that , not sc2con or the korean teams. Just NASL, it is amateurish and they should really hold their tongues anyways until they know whats going on. "The korean teams do no wish to participate in NASL and have withdrawn" its simple its effective and it doesnt cause any drama. I dont see why they couldnt just say that. It is not like sc2con is not as amateurish.
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This whole situation is really messy and everyone comes off fishy. But for me, the Sc2Con and the Korean Players / Teams come off as dishonest and unprofessional, not just in the NASL drama.
They didn't really leave a good impression on me at all, in everything they were involved.
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On August 14 2011 21:53 NHY wrote:"It is nonsense to suggest S2CON is blocking [our] participation. If we wanted to participate, we would do so regardless of whatever S2CON's wishes were." There are rumors that S2CON is blocking korean team's participation in foreign scene. However, it's been confirmed that since their creation in Nov, 2010 S2CON has left the decision of participating in foreign events to each team's discretion and have not interfered in any way in this regard since. Original article in Korean: + Show Spoiler +NASL 주장, 사실무근으로 확인 - NASL, 협의회 인지(認知) 잘못에 대해 사과 - 이형섭-최윤상 감독, NASL측 주장 사실무근 스타크래프트2 협의회(이하 협의회)가 '이번 NASL 시즌2에 한국 선수 참가 철회가 협의회와는 무관하다'는 입장을 발표했다. 협의회는 공식 홈페이지를 통해 참가 철회로 인한 분쟁은 각 게임단 자체적으로 진행된 내용이라 해명했다. 이어서 협의회는 NASL로부터 공식적인 내용을 전달하거나 받은 적도 없다고 밝혔다. 이 소식을 접한 NASL측은 “한국에서 진행되는 일을 정확하게 알지 못한다. 하지만, 우린 한국팀들의 공통된 결정을 들었고 첫 계약서에는 ‘스타크래프트2 한국 팀 협의회(SC2 Korean Team Committee)’라고 작성되어 있었다. 이후 계약 때에도 이렇게 작성되어 협의회라고 적은 것이다. 만약, 소수 팀들의 결정이었으면 스타2협의회(S2CON)에 사과하고 싶다”며 자신들의 실수에 사과하는 뜻을 내비쳤다. 하지만, 그는 “김승철(FXO소속, sC)와 MVP팀의 소속 선수들이 NASL에 참가하려 하는데 ‘S2CON’이 출전을 막고 있어 당황하고 있다”는 입장을 밝히며 ‘S2CON’가 NASL에 피해를 주고 있다고 주장했다.
이에 PlayXP는 김승철이 소속되어 있는 FXO의 이형섭 감독과 MVP의 최윤상 감독에게 확인해 본 결과 사실 무근인 것으로 확인됐다. 이형섭 감독은 “김승철 선수 본인이 출전하지 않기로 해 철회 한 것”이라며 “NASL 출전과 관련해 S2CON과 그 어떤 논쟁을 벌인 적이 없다”고 밝혔다. 최윤상 감독 또한 “처음부터 NASL에 출전할 의사가 없었는데 이런 말을 듣게 되어 황당하다. 형제 팀인 ‘compLexity’로부터 NASL 출전 제안을 받은 것은 사실이나, 팀 사정상 힘들어 정중히 거절했다, 또 이 제안은 한국 팀들의 출전 철회 후 온 것이고 NASL로부터 직접적인 교섭은 없었다”고 밝혔다. ‘S2CON’의 참가 저지에 대한 질문에는 “만약, 우리가 출전하고 싶었다면 협의회 의사와는 무관하게 출전할 수 있는데 출전을 저지한다니 웃기는 소리다”며 NASL측의 주장을 반박하기도 했다. 한편, 일각에선 ‘S2CON’이 국내 팀의 해외 진출을 막고 있는 것이란 설이 일고 있지만, S2CON은 지난 해 11월 발족 당시부터 해외 대회 출전 여부는 팀 자율에 맡겼으며 그에 따른 부분에 대해 관여한 바가 전혀 없는 것으로 확인 됐다. 글: 안영훈(ethan@playxp.com)
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
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If Boss withdrew from SC2Con because of 1 person, then there's no reason that all of this couldn't be true from SC2Con's point of view as far as NASL goes. I don't know how NASL managed to piss off every single Korean in the world, but seems like that might be the case.
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On August 14 2011 22:58 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:56 cheesemaster wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 tyCe wrote: Okay. Several things/possibilities going on in my mind.
1. Korean politics between the teams and the S2CON. The usual blackmail stuff. 2. Lack of communication between NASL and effectively anyone in Korea. They should get a Korean liason or PR rep. Using the media/public forums to establish communication is stupid. 3. S2CON, NASL and other parties using TL.net as their media outlet. It's ridiculous. It's unprofessional. Use twitter or your own website or a proper news outlet, and let a TL member link that source here. Using TL as the first means of public communication is amateurish. That would be NASL doing that , not sc2con or the korean teams. Just NASL, it is amateurish and they should really hold their tongues anyways until they know whats going on. "The korean teams do no wish to participate in NASL and have withdrawn" its simple its effective and it doesnt cause any drama. I dont see why they couldnt just say that. It is not like sc2con is not as amateurish.
That may very well be, but s2con had nothing to do with this situation as you can read from both s2con and NASL's statement.
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So the players who decided to try to qualify to NASL just had a massive change of heart all at the same time?
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United States5162 Posts
On August 14 2011 22:56 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:39 tyCe wrote: Okay. Several things/possibilities going on in my mind.
1. Korean politics between the teams and the S2CON. The usual blackmail stuff. 2. Lack of communication between NASL and effectively anyone in Korea. They should get a Korean liason or PR rep. Using the media/public forums to establish communication is stupid. 3. S2CON, NASL and other parties using TL.net as their media outlet. It's ridiculous. It's unprofessional. Use twitter or your own website or a proper news outlet, and let a TL member link that source here. Using TL as the first means of public communication is amateurish. That would be NASL doing that , not sc2con or the korean teams. Just NASL, it is amateurish and they should really hold their tongues anyways until they know whats going on. "The korean teams do no wish to participate in NASL and have withdrawn" its simple its effective and it doesnt cause any drama. I dont see why they couldnt just say that.
You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Either the NASL says that and gets blasted by people assuming they did something horrible like EG since they had no transparency, or they do what they did and people call them unprofessional for outing business partners. Well, I think it was unprofessional to sign contracts then later pull out, and letting the world know this happened isn't unprofessional at all. The rest of the NASL vs Korean Teams vs SC2con vs FXO stuff is the result of language barriers imo.
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On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all.
"It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside.
Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)?
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United States5162 Posts
On August 14 2011 23:04 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. "It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside. Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)?
I know of no other tournament that has exposed details like this, so of course I can't provide sources. But I would pretty much guarantee you that all the major tournaments(MLG, IEM, Blizzcon, GSL) have contracts with players. It'd be outlining things just like NASL talked about, payment schedule, player/organizer requirements, and probably insurance.
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On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 21:53 NHY wrote:"It is nonsense to suggest S2CON is blocking [our] participation. If we wanted to participate, we would do so regardless of whatever S2CON's wishes were." There are rumors that S2CON is blocking korean team's participation in foreign scene. However, it's been confirmed that since their creation in Nov, 2010 S2CON has left the decision of participating in foreign events to each team's discretion and have not interfered in any way in this regard since. Original article in Korean: + Show Spoiler +NASL 주장, 사실무근으로 확인 - NASL, 협의회 인지(認知) 잘못에 대해 사과 - 이형섭-최윤상 감독, NASL측 주장 사실무근 스타크래프트2 협의회(이하 협의회)가 '이번 NASL 시즌2에 한국 선수 참가 철회가 협의회와는 무관하다'는 입장을 발표했다. 협의회는 공식 홈페이지를 통해 참가 철회로 인한 분쟁은 각 게임단 자체적으로 진행된 내용이라 해명했다. 이어서 협의회는 NASL로부터 공식적인 내용을 전달하거나 받은 적도 없다고 밝혔다. 이 소식을 접한 NASL측은 “한국에서 진행되는 일을 정확하게 알지 못한다. 하지만, 우린 한국팀들의 공통된 결정을 들었고 첫 계약서에는 ‘스타크래프트2 한국 팀 협의회(SC2 Korean Team Committee)’라고 작성되어 있었다. 이후 계약 때에도 이렇게 작성되어 협의회라고 적은 것이다. 만약, 소수 팀들의 결정이었으면 스타2협의회(S2CON)에 사과하고 싶다”며 자신들의 실수에 사과하는 뜻을 내비쳤다. 하지만, 그는 “김승철(FXO소속, sC)와 MVP팀의 소속 선수들이 NASL에 참가하려 하는데 ‘S2CON’이 출전을 막고 있어 당황하고 있다”는 입장을 밝히며 ‘S2CON’가 NASL에 피해를 주고 있다고 주장했다.
이에 PlayXP는 김승철이 소속되어 있는 FXO의 이형섭 감독과 MVP의 최윤상 감독에게 확인해 본 결과 사실 무근인 것으로 확인됐다. 이형섭 감독은 “김승철 선수 본인이 출전하지 않기로 해 철회 한 것”이라며 “NASL 출전과 관련해 S2CON과 그 어떤 논쟁을 벌인 적이 없다”고 밝혔다. 최윤상 감독 또한 “처음부터 NASL에 출전할 의사가 없었는데 이런 말을 듣게 되어 황당하다. 형제 팀인 ‘compLexity’로부터 NASL 출전 제안을 받은 것은 사실이나, 팀 사정상 힘들어 정중히 거절했다, 또 이 제안은 한국 팀들의 출전 철회 후 온 것이고 NASL로부터 직접적인 교섭은 없었다”고 밝혔다. ‘S2CON’의 참가 저지에 대한 질문에는 “만약, 우리가 출전하고 싶었다면 협의회 의사와는 무관하게 출전할 수 있는데 출전을 저지한다니 웃기는 소리다”며 NASL측의 주장을 반박하기도 했다. 한편, 일각에선 ‘S2CON’이 국내 팀의 해외 진출을 막고 있는 것이란 설이 일고 있지만, S2CON은 지난 해 11월 발족 당시부터 해외 대회 출전 여부는 팀 자율에 맡겼으며 그에 따른 부분에 대해 관여한 바가 전혀 없는 것으로 확인 됐다. 글: 안영훈(ethan@playxp.com) So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL? I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
They did pass that information to NASL, together, through Mr. Chae, according to NASL.
NASL admitted after S2CON's official statement that they were using the word "S2CON" freely as a group of korean teams.
But they then said S2COn were blocking sC and MVP from participating.
This is contradicted by 1) FXOBoss 2)FXOChoya 3)MVP's coach and 4)ethan from PlayXP's investigation
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On August 14 2011 23:00 SimDawg wrote: If Boss withdrew from SC2Con because of 1 person, then there's no reason that all of this couldn't be true from SC2Con's point of view as far as NASL goes. I don't know how NASL managed to piss off every single Korean in the world, but seems like that might be the case. I think what is more probable there was in the beginning total chaos in communication, then NASL released their statement. That statement (with probably bad (intentionally?) translation) made Koreans feel unjustly accused. Add to it standard psychological reactions of human groups that are under (perceived) attack to lash out and support each other no matter what and you have current situation with half-truths being thrown around and who knows what going behind the scenes. Frankly SC2 politics just became similar to real life politics, and we just have to approach it in the same way of total scepticism towards every party involved. Does not mean some things aren't more probable, but just keep in mind that everybody is probably lying
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On August 14 2011 23:00 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:58 mcc wrote:On August 14 2011 22:56 cheesemaster wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 tyCe wrote: Okay. Several things/possibilities going on in my mind.
1. Korean politics between the teams and the S2CON. The usual blackmail stuff. 2. Lack of communication between NASL and effectively anyone in Korea. They should get a Korean liason or PR rep. Using the media/public forums to establish communication is stupid. 3. S2CON, NASL and other parties using TL.net as their media outlet. It's ridiculous. It's unprofessional. Use twitter or your own website or a proper news outlet, and let a TL member link that source here. Using TL as the first means of public communication is amateurish. That would be NASL doing that , not sc2con or the korean teams. Just NASL, it is amateurish and they should really hold their tongues anyways until they know whats going on. "The korean teams do no wish to participate in NASL and have withdrawn" its simple its effective and it doesnt cause any drama. I dont see why they couldnt just say that. It is not like sc2con is not as amateurish. That may very well be, but s2con had nothing to do with this situation as you can read from both s2con and NASL's statement. Frankly at this point there is no reason to believe them anything they say especially as the whole picture that we currently have(very incomplete I admit) seems to make what they say very unlikely. Welcome to standard politics where statements are only about PR not in the slightest about reality.
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On August 14 2011 23:08 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:04 Talin wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. "It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside. Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)? I know of no other tournament that has exposed details like this, so of course I can't provide sources. But I would pretty much guarantee you that all the major tournaments(MLG, IEM, Blizzcon, GSL) have contracts with players. It'd be outlining things just like NASL talked about, payment schedule, player/organizer requirements, and probably insurance.
I'd like to hear some confirmation of this. As far as I know, you can just sign up for a spot in the MLG open bracket, and I doubt they throw a contract in your face when you show up at the event to take your place in the bracket.
Also, players seem to be free to pull out of other tournaments at any point.
Payment details can be handled after the competition is over and the prize money is won, and besides it's in the organizer's best interest to pay the prize money. Not sure what insurance would a tournament organizer be covering, I don't know how it works in various countries but I really doubt they cover any sort of personal insurance.
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On August 14 2011 23:12 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:00 NHY wrote:On August 14 2011 22:58 mcc wrote:On August 14 2011 22:56 cheesemaster wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 tyCe wrote: Okay. Several things/possibilities going on in my mind.
1. Korean politics between the teams and the S2CON. The usual blackmail stuff. 2. Lack of communication between NASL and effectively anyone in Korea. They should get a Korean liason or PR rep. Using the media/public forums to establish communication is stupid. 3. S2CON, NASL and other parties using TL.net as their media outlet. It's ridiculous. It's unprofessional. Use twitter or your own website or a proper news outlet, and let a TL member link that source here. Using TL as the first means of public communication is amateurish. That would be NASL doing that , not sc2con or the korean teams. Just NASL, it is amateurish and they should really hold their tongues anyways until they know whats going on. "The korean teams do no wish to participate in NASL and have withdrawn" its simple its effective and it doesnt cause any drama. I dont see why they couldnt just say that. It is not like sc2con is not as amateurish. That may very well be, but s2con had nothing to do with this situation as you can read from both s2con and NASL's statement. Frankly at this point there is no reason to believe them anything they say especially as the whole picture that we currently have(very incomplete I admit) seems to make what they say very unlikely. Welcome to standard politics where statements are only about PR not in the slightest about reality.
So you don't believe something that both S2CON and NASL are saying to be true?
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On August 14 2011 23:04 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. "It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside. Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)? Which other big tournament is actually a league that depends on many weeks of players participation without an ability to replace players during that time ?
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On August 14 2011 23:04 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. "It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside. Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)?
It doesnt matter if other tournaments have contracts or not. dont you think it would be pretty smart to have contracts in a 3 months tournament? what if all pulled out 1 week before the final and ruined the tournament?
And i think the contract benefits the players alot, because then they have something binding if the prices doesnt get payed etc
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This is just sad. These few weeks, there have been a lot of miscommunication between different parties. I guess the thing we can learn from this is that if any party has any problem or issue, it would be only appropriate to talk to the other concerned party first before posting anything for the public to see.
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It seriously feels like the teams and organizations are run by a bunch of amateurs. They do all kinds of crazy shit, they take other people's players, make shit up, get themselves in all kind of trouble for personal reasons, and just assume things are a certain way when drama begins and start posting shit without knowing what's actually happening.
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United States5162 Posts
On August 14 2011 23:13 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:08 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 23:04 Talin wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. "It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside. Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)? I know of no other tournament that has exposed details like this, so of course I can't provide sources. But I would pretty much guarantee you that all the major tournaments(MLG, IEM, Blizzcon, GSL) have contracts with players. It'd be outlining things just like NASL talked about, payment schedule, player/organizer requirements, and probably insurance. I'd like to hear some confirmation of this. As far as I know, you can just sign up for a spot in the MLG open bracket, and I doubt they throw a contract in your face when you show up at the event to take your place in the bracket. Also, players seem to be free to pull out of other tournaments at any point.
They have to sign something to agree to the tournament rules and stuff. You're being incredibly naive if you think they just show up, sit down, and play. They have to pay to get in in the first place and I would bet when they do that they agree to MLG's terms and officially sign a contract. It doesn't have to be some 50 page legal document, it could very well be a couple paragraph letter.
And insurance would be discussed because, at least in the US, being presence at someone else's property makes them liable for anything the happens to you. If a competitor(or a fan, but that would be a different matter) were to get hurt at MLG it could be a legal mess and there would certainly be some kind of agreement before hand stating what rights each party had.
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On August 14 2011 23:14 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:12 mcc wrote:On August 14 2011 23:00 NHY wrote:On August 14 2011 22:58 mcc wrote:On August 14 2011 22:56 cheesemaster wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 tyCe wrote: Okay. Several things/possibilities going on in my mind.
1. Korean politics between the teams and the S2CON. The usual blackmail stuff. 2. Lack of communication between NASL and effectively anyone in Korea. They should get a Korean liason or PR rep. Using the media/public forums to establish communication is stupid. 3. S2CON, NASL and other parties using TL.net as their media outlet. It's ridiculous. It's unprofessional. Use twitter or your own website or a proper news outlet, and let a TL member link that source here. Using TL as the first means of public communication is amateurish. That would be NASL doing that , not sc2con or the korean teams. Just NASL, it is amateurish and they should really hold their tongues anyways until they know whats going on. "The korean teams do no wish to participate in NASL and have withdrawn" its simple its effective and it doesnt cause any drama. I dont see why they couldnt just say that. It is not like sc2con is not as amateurish. That may very well be, but s2con had nothing to do with this situation as you can read from both s2con and NASL's statement. Frankly at this point there is no reason to believe them anything they say especially as the whole picture that we currently have(very incomplete I admit) seems to make what they say very unlikely. Welcome to standard politics where statements are only about PR not in the slightest about reality. So you don't believe something that both S2CON and NASL are saying to be true? No, not really. They might be just trying to put it to rest because of bad PR for both sides. I am not saying it is so, just that I have seen in politics many cases where "warring" parties agreed to some version of "facts" only to be later shown that they lied. Basically they are not trustworthy enough to believe anything they say.
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This is the biggest drama in SC2 since it's release? I think like the unravelling and fall-out from all this chaos and confusion is going to have long term negative effects on the future of SC2.Altogether it's very unfortunate. Something somewhere is going very badly wrong.
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On August 14 2011 23:14 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:04 Talin wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. "It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside. Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)? Which other big tournament is actually a league that depends on many weeks of players participation without an ability to replace players during that time ?
See, that's the problem.
If the format is so bad that it could bring player into a position where it would be in his best interest to just not play anymore, then change the format to avoid it.
If the scheduling is so bad that it conflicts with major tournaments (as it was the case in Season 1), then work with other tournaments to avoid schedule conflicting.
Those are the solutions to actual problems - getting everyone to sign contracts is just a forced roundabout way to ensure that the competition isn't a complete disaster.
On August 14 2011 23:17 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:13 Talin wrote:On August 14 2011 23:08 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 23:04 Talin wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. "It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside. Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)? I know of no other tournament that has exposed details like this, so of course I can't provide sources. But I would pretty much guarantee you that all the major tournaments(MLG, IEM, Blizzcon, GSL) have contracts with players. It'd be outlining things just like NASL talked about, payment schedule, player/organizer requirements, and probably insurance. I'd like to hear some confirmation of this. As far as I know, you can just sign up for a spot in the MLG open bracket, and I doubt they throw a contract in your face when you show up at the event to take your place in the bracket. Also, players seem to be free to pull out of other tournaments at any point. They have to sign something to agree to the tournament rules and stuff. You're being incredibly naive if you think they just show up, sit down, and play. They have to pay to get in in the first place and I would bet when they do that they agree to MLG's terms and officially sign a contract. It doesn't have to be some 50 page legal document, it could very well be a couple paragraph letter.
Yeah, could be. Nobody really reads those kinds of terms anyway. 
What NASL does is obviously somewhat of a bigger deal / different as it seems to dictate and restrict so much of what a player can or can't do.
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On August 14 2011 23:19 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:14 mcc wrote:On August 14 2011 23:04 Talin wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. "It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside. Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)? Which other big tournament is actually a league that depends on many weeks of players participation without an ability to replace players during that time ? See, that's the problem. If the format is so bad that it could bring player into a position where it would be in his best interest to just not play anymore, then change the format to avoid it. If the scheduling is so bad that it conflicts with major tournaments (as it was the case in Season 1), then work with other tournaments to avoid schedule conflicting. Those are the solutions to actual problems - getting everyone to sign contracts is just a forced roundabout way to ensure that the competition isn't a complete disaster. Or maybe they should do both, I criticized NASL for their scheduling and format in week one of season 1. I am not going to criticize them for deposits and contracts that are as valid approach as not having them.
EDIT:typo
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NASL seems like such a shady little venture, lol. There's always a lot of flak surrounding it, and their PR is terrible. That Xeris guy would ALWAYS get into it with people, and wasn't he supposed to be the rep? Then incontrol, of course, doing his thing, and now this... Ew. Good to know the Korean teams aren't just super duper greedy like NASL made them seem...
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S2con, SC2con, what is this garbage. Why cant these "groups" of teams/individuals find a better way to distinguish themselves. As an organization sifting through much information as to why players arent going to participate in their tournament it's quite obnoxious to every time distinguish which group the blame lies too. Really; S2con SC2con...
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Double speak. sc2CON is an organization founded by the teams. They can claim the teams acted on their own individually all they want, but individuals don't act as a block.
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On August 14 2011 23:23 FallDownMarigold wrote: NASL seems like such a shady little venture, lol. There's always a lot of flak surrounding it, and their PR is terrible. That Xeris guy would ALWAYS get into it with people, and wasn't he supposed to be the rep? Then incontrol, of course, doing his thing, and now this... Ew. Good to know the Korean teams aren't just super duper greedy like NASL made them seem... Not to defend NASL too much, but did you see all the drama with lying and politics that surrounds sc2con and has nothing to do with NASL. Many things in sc2 scene are becoming shady, money tends to do that.
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On August 14 2011 23:04 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. "It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside. Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)?
In Germany the EPS Players have to sign contracts to play in it. they dont't have to pay a deposit, but if they make something stupid and will earn some paneltypoints, they will get less money at the end of the season.
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On August 14 2011 23:13 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:08 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 23:04 Talin wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. "It's a business" has become such a standard excuse for everything that goes wrong in SC2 lately that the very mention of the word makes me die a little inside. Which other tournament requires players to put in a deposit and sign a contract in order to play (and link sources)? I know of no other tournament that has exposed details like this, so of course I can't provide sources. But I would pretty much guarantee you that all the major tournaments(MLG, IEM, Blizzcon, GSL) have contracts with players. It'd be outlining things just like NASL talked about, payment schedule, player/organizer requirements, and probably insurance. I'd like to hear some confirmation of this. As far as I know, you can just sign up for a spot in the MLG open bracket, and I doubt they throw a contract in your face when you show up at the event to take your place in the bracket. Also, players seem to be free to pull out of other tournaments at any point.
I played WoW competitively for two years and every league played in I had to sign something in order to participate. That includes WSVG, MLG, Blizzards WWI, Dreamhack.
MLG charges $70 per event per player. NASL charges $5 I believe. NASL has a deposit for $500 if you qualify, which can be a lot for many people, but their league spans over months instead of a weekend. I think that's how NASL works anyway.
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I thought FXO was trying to play in the NASL and withdrew from s2con to play in it . . .
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On August 14 2011 23:24 tdt wrote: Double speak. sc2CON is an organization founded by the teams. They can claim the teams acted on their own individually all they want, but individuals don't act as a block.
s2con members: IM, MVP, NSHoSeo, oGs, Prime, StarTale, ZeNEX
Korean teams mentioned in NASL's announcement: oGs, StarTale, WeMadeFox, TSL, Prime
Korean teams NOT mentioned in NASL's announcement but are not participating in NASL: SlayerS, FXO Korea
Total of 7 teams withdraw from NASL. Only 3 of them are in S2CON.
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On August 14 2011 22:31 thehitman wrote: Now that FXO has left the SC2con organization I'm inclined to believe that Koreans are lying about this. I think there is a conspiracy within most of the korean teams to either get their way or the highway.
I mean think about it, if they can pose special requirements to NASL, what stops them for posing requirements to dreamhack, ISL, IPL, etc...
Hopefully Blizzard steps in if things get too out of hand and realize that global e-sports is more important than few korean teams.
I also think GOMTV has a lot of saying just because of the new partnership with MSL. nice speculation bro. Maybe if you bothered to read the fxo leaves korea thread, you wouldnt be saying this.....
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On August 14 2011 22:55 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:48 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:46 AlBundy wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. Well maybe in USA but I know a couple of countries where a lot of deals are sealed with a nothing more than a formality. Really? That's crazy imo. I don't see how you can agree to something and not put it in writing. Don't get me wrong, I understand preliminary agreements and such are often made on a verbal basis, but they're always written into contracts at some point before everything is supposed to happen. In more than few places oral contracts are as binding as written one, but you need to be able to prove that they actually happened in case of court dispute.
i trust oral contracts as much as leaving a bucket of fried chicken in a room with oprah
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This is confusing as hell.
The impression I'm getting is that the korean teams/team managers just don't want to participate in NASL, for whatever reasons. Probably a combination of play times/monetary issues/experience at the s1 finals, or whatever.
If we could just have some coach from some korean team explain his reasons, I'm fairly certain we can all get over this.
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does it say in the article the reasons cause i dont see any in the OP.
btw if u read FXOboss's thread on why FXO left sc2con, i dont know why anyone would believe anything sc2con says. if they do that to a foreign team who is already less likely to keep quiet, imagine what they are doing to the korean teams behind the scenes.
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To this critiqing the NASL, I'd like to just remind you that the korean teams JOINED up, they can't just expect everything to be paid for them, thats completely unfair...The people from EU don't get their travel paid for.
The korean teams joined the NASL and then left after the season had started.
The korean teams are the ones being unreasonable.
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I still believe my conspiracy theory that Mr. Chae wants to support MLG to the fullest and only have Koreans play in the USA while competing in MLG.
Of course I'm probably just f'n nuts, but still this is what I believe to be true.
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The hell has been going on the last week? Its like everyone took their drama juice and turned into monkeys throwing shit about.
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On August 14 2011 23:44 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:55 mcc wrote:On August 14 2011 22:48 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:46 AlBundy wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. Well maybe in USA but I know a couple of countries where a lot of deals are sealed with a nothing more than a formality. Really? That's crazy imo. I don't see how you can agree to something and not put it in writing. Don't get me wrong, I understand preliminary agreements and such are often made on a verbal basis, but they're always written into contracts at some point before everything is supposed to happen. In more than few places oral contracts are as binding as written one, but you need to be able to prove that they actually happened in case of court dispute. i trust oral contracts as much as leaving a bucket of fried chicken in a room with oprah If you have the way to prove them and courts enforce them why not ?
EDIT:Not to say that written ones are not better as the crux of the matter is of course proving the oral contract was in fact in place.
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United States5162 Posts
On August 14 2011 23:49 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:44 zev318 wrote:On August 14 2011 22:55 mcc wrote:On August 14 2011 22:48 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:46 AlBundy wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. Well maybe in USA but I know a couple of countries where a lot of deals are sealed with a nothing more than a formality. Really? That's crazy imo. I don't see how you can agree to something and not put it in writing. Don't get me wrong, I understand preliminary agreements and such are often made on a verbal basis, but they're always written into contracts at some point before everything is supposed to happen. In more than few places oral contracts are as binding as written one, but you need to be able to prove that they actually happened in case of court dispute. i trust oral contracts as much as leaving a bucket of fried chicken in a room with oprah If you have the way to prove them and courts enforce them why not ?
If you're going to record all your conversations I guess it works fine.
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On August 14 2011 23:51 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:49 mcc wrote:On August 14 2011 23:44 zev318 wrote:On August 14 2011 22:55 mcc wrote:On August 14 2011 22:48 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:46 AlBundy wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. Well maybe in USA but I know a couple of countries where a lot of deals are sealed with a nothing more than a formality. Really? That's crazy imo. I don't see how you can agree to something and not put it in writing. Don't get me wrong, I understand preliminary agreements and such are often made on a verbal basis, but they're always written into contracts at some point before everything is supposed to happen. In more than few places oral contracts are as binding as written one, but you need to be able to prove that they actually happened in case of court dispute. i trust oral contracts as much as leaving a bucket of fried chicken in a room with oprah If you have the way to prove them and courts enforce them why not ? If you're going to record all your conversations I guess it works fine.
duno about u but i always have a voice recorder on me at all times, even when i sleep so if anyone comes in my room and says something, they are legally bound
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Fuck it, I throw my hands up in the air, no more drama... please...
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On August 14 2011 23:46 enecateReAP wrote: To this critiqing the NASL, I'd like to just remind you that the korean teams JOINED up, they can't just expect everything to be paid for them, thats completely unfair...The people from EU don't get their travel paid for.
The korean teams joined the NASL and then left after the season had started.
The korean teams are the ones being unreasonable. Wait I thought that the koreans made their move before the deadline. Even if they did it at the last minute, they still made the deadline afaik?!
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On August 14 2011 23:51 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:49 mcc wrote:On August 14 2011 23:44 zev318 wrote:On August 14 2011 22:55 mcc wrote:On August 14 2011 22:48 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:46 AlBundy wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. Well maybe in USA but I know a couple of countries where a lot of deals are sealed with a nothing more than a formality. Really? That's crazy imo. I don't see how you can agree to something and not put it in writing. Don't get me wrong, I understand preliminary agreements and such are often made on a verbal basis, but they're always written into contracts at some point before everything is supposed to happen. In more than few places oral contracts are as binding as written one, but you need to be able to prove that they actually happened in case of court dispute. i trust oral contracts as much as leaving a bucket of fried chicken in a room with oprah If you have the way to prove them and courts enforce them why not ? If you're going to record all your conversations I guess it works fine.
I always forgot that US citizen sign contracts each time they meet someone, oh, wait ...
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United States5162 Posts
On August 14 2011 23:54 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:46 enecateReAP wrote: To this critiqing the NASL, I'd like to just remind you that the korean teams JOINED up, they can't just expect everything to be paid for them, thats completely unfair...The people from EU don't get their travel paid for.
The korean teams joined the NASL and then left after the season had started.
The korean teams are the ones being unreasonable. Wait I thought that the koreans made their move before the deadline. Even if they did it at the last minute, they still made the deadline afaik?!
No, the NASL was told the Koreans would not be participating after contracts were signed and games had already been played and recorded(not games by the Koreans I assume).
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On August 14 2011 23:55 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:54 AlBundy wrote:On August 14 2011 23:46 enecateReAP wrote: To this critiqing the NASL, I'd like to just remind you that the korean teams JOINED up, they can't just expect everything to be paid for them, thats completely unfair...The people from EU don't get their travel paid for.
The korean teams joined the NASL and then left after the season had started.
The korean teams are the ones being unreasonable. Wait I thought that the koreans made their move before the deadline. Even if they did it at the last minute, they still made the deadline afaik?! No, the NASL was told the Koreans would not be participating after contracts were signed and games had already been played and recorded(not games by the Koreans I assume).
No they retract from their contract but they did it at the last minute of the negotiation.
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Then why did fxo just leave sc2 con if there "isn't" a problem
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United States5162 Posts
On August 14 2011 23:57 Imres wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:55 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 23:54 AlBundy wrote:On August 14 2011 23:46 enecateReAP wrote: To this critiqing the NASL, I'd like to just remind you that the korean teams JOINED up, they can't just expect everything to be paid for them, thats completely unfair...The people from EU don't get their travel paid for.
The korean teams joined the NASL and then left after the season had started.
The korean teams are the ones being unreasonable. Wait I thought that the koreans made their move before the deadline. Even if they did it at the last minute, they still made the deadline afaik?! No, the NASL was told the Koreans would not be participating after contracts were signed and games had already been played and recorded(not games by the Koreans I assume). No they retract from their contract but they did it at the last minute of the negotiation.
On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote: In an effort to try to ease the difficulty of travel, we managed to double our travel budget to $1,000 per player in addition to the minimum prize of $500. Unfortunately, we were notified August 9th (our 2nd day of filming) that this offer was unacceptable, and that Koreans were withdrawing from the league.
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On August 14 2011 23:59 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:57 Imres wrote:On August 14 2011 23:55 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 23:54 AlBundy wrote:On August 14 2011 23:46 enecateReAP wrote: To this critiqing the NASL, I'd like to just remind you that the korean teams JOINED up, they can't just expect everything to be paid for them, thats completely unfair...The people from EU don't get their travel paid for.
The korean teams joined the NASL and then left after the season had started.
The korean teams are the ones being unreasonable. Wait I thought that the koreans made their move before the deadline. Even if they did it at the last minute, they still made the deadline afaik?! No, the NASL was told the Koreans would not be participating after contracts were signed and games had already been played and recorded(not games by the Koreans I assume). No they retract from their contract but they did it at the last minute of the negotiation. Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote: In an effort to try to ease the difficulty of travel, we managed to double our travel budget to $1,000 per player in addition to the minimum prize of $500. Unfortunately, we were notified August 9th (our 2nd day of filming) that this offer was unacceptable, and that Koreans were withdrawing from the league.
I think this should be posted together.
WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.
On August 12 2011 08:06 NASL.tv wrote: In an effort to try to ease the difficulty of travel, we managed to double our travel budget to $1,000 per player in addition to the minimum prize of $500. Unfortunately, we were notified August 9th (our 2nd day of filming) that this offer was unacceptable, and that Koreans were withdrawing from the league.
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Now when every Korean leaves NASL it's a great opportunity for one of them to just participate since they're almost guarantied $20,000 ^_^ Imagine just DRG or someone playing, chances would be slim that he'd drop a single game since Naniwa, Thorzain, Sase and Huk isn't participating either
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If you go through my post history, you will see how much i love the korean scene, the korean players and even korean organizations as Kespa, but one thing i noted is how full of shit they can be when it comes down to defend their turf. Their damage control crew is pretty good, but you have to be a little gullible to believe all they say.
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On August 14 2011 23:52 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:51 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 23:49 mcc wrote:On August 14 2011 23:44 zev318 wrote:On August 14 2011 22:55 mcc wrote:On August 14 2011 22:48 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:46 AlBundy wrote:On August 14 2011 22:39 Myles wrote:On August 14 2011 22:35 Talin wrote: To be honest, requiring contracts and deposits just to participate in what's technically an online qualifier tournament (which the whole online portion of NASL is) is just not sensible at all in the first place. You obviously have no idea how business works. You ALWAYS have contracts. A deal without a contract is no deal at all. Well maybe in USA but I know a couple of countries where a lot of deals are sealed with a nothing more than a formality. Really? That's crazy imo. I don't see how you can agree to something and not put it in writing. Don't get me wrong, I understand preliminary agreements and such are often made on a verbal basis, but they're always written into contracts at some point before everything is supposed to happen. In more than few places oral contracts are as binding as written one, but you need to be able to prove that they actually happened in case of court dispute. i trust oral contracts as much as leaving a bucket of fried chicken in a room with oprah If you have the way to prove them and courts enforce them why not ? If you're going to record all your conversations I guess it works fine. duno about u but i always have a voice recorder on me at all times, even when i sleep so if anyone comes in my room and says something, they are legally bound I really does not work like that and recordings are not required to prove oral contract. Courts are not that stupid and they are not robots and have some discretion. I am no lawyer, but from what I read how it works/worked here some time ago, my impression is that for example : You have two parties and one sold the other something based on oral contract. The second party did not pay. In court if the first party can show that goods were delivered and they have some other evidence of oral contract(witness,request of the buying party to deliver the goods,...) the court might as well decide that the other party has to pay. I have no idea how they determine the amount though. Other real example that I know of is : Parents promised a son that in two years they will write the house on him as the owner. So he made total reconstruction of the house investing a lot and later parents did not actually did as promised. His lawyer told him that it is quite possible to go to court, that witnesses would be good, but even without them there is high possibility that court will decide in his favour as it is clear(he had all the paperwork necessary to prove it) that he invested a lot in that house and it is not feasible he would do so without some kind of compensation. So it would be likely court would at least say that parents have to repay the cost of reconstruction.
Basically the point is, courts are not ( always ) stupid and not everything that appears to be a hole in the law actually is one. Not every small detail of human interactions can be written into the law or into the contract. You often see words like "reasonable", "appropriate" and similar in laws and their interpretation is given by historical usage and by judges thinking about the case and understanding the meaning of the law.
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On August 14 2011 23:37 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:24 tdt wrote: Double speak. sc2CON is an organization founded by the teams. They can claim the teams acted on their own individually all they want, but individuals don't act as a block. s2con members: IM, MVP, NSHoSeo, oGs, Prime, StarTale, ZeNEX Korean teams mentioned in NASL's announcement: oGs, StarTale, WeMadeFox, TSL, Prime Korean teams NOT mentioned in NASL's announcement but are not participating in NASL: SlayerS, FXO Korea Total of 7 teams withdraw from NASL. Only 3 of them are in S2CON. I'm not sure what the difference between s2con, sc2Con and SC2 Committee is, if there is any, and where a list of their respective members can be found.
But as far as I'm concerned (and if they are indeed the same group) then your post appears to be incorrect. How else do you explain that TSL had recently been expelled from sc2CON only to see that ban overturned, leaving them as part of that group, and the issue of FXO's recent departure from that group, which has not yet come to a conclusion either? For both teams to leave this group both teams have to be part of it first. TSL is now part of it again and the issue with FXO isn't finished yet either.
So your list should read
s2con members: IM, MVP, NSHoSeo, oGs, Prime, StarTale, ZeNEX, TSL, FXO (possibly)
Korean teams mentioned in NASL's announcement: oGs, StarTale, WeMadeFox, TSL, Prime
Korean teams NOT mentioned in NASL's announcement but are not participating in NASL: SlayerS, FXO Korea
Total of 7 teams withdraw from NASL. Only 3 5 of them are in S2CON.
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United Arab Emirates116 Posts
in other words sc2con did nothing and got blamed for a crime they didnt commit and the korean teams just did not want to deal with NASL
if NASL was so fucked up after the incontrol fiasco, this will totally make it FUBAR and obliterate it in the entire SC2 map!
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The NASL thing never made any sense. According to NASL, they were offering the Korean teams way more than most big tournaments and leagues give. If that was the problem, what were the Korean teams demanding? $3,000 travel to the finals only a few players would be going to? Splitting hairs over travel would be stupid and it's generally best not to assume people are stupid (like in SC2, it's a quick way to a loss).
NASL hasn't always given the best impression of professionalism and posting their announcement here blaming "SC2con" and then having to admit later there was no SC2con involvement (just teams & Mr. Chae from the GSL) looks a bit odd. Xeris saying he hasn't been able to get in touch with the team managers is also odd. If you are trying to run a major league, seems like you should be in regular contact with all the team managers by skype/phone (not just email).
I'm going to guess there is something else in the NASL contract that is putting the Korean teams off. Maybe something about contingencies if the league goes bankrupt? Maybe excessive fines for missing matches or disclosing results before broadcast? Refusal to guarantee that the NASL finals won't overlap with a major GSL event or even disrupt sleep schedules prior to GSL matches?
If sC from FXO isn't participating, it isn't about travel support or paying the deposit. They have the sponsorship to cover costs and sC is good enough to win it all. Very odd.
Maybe it's just at trust issue. The players are being asked to make a big commitment to months of play and if they don't trust the organization running the league...
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On August 15 2011 00:15 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:37 NHY wrote:On August 14 2011 23:24 tdt wrote: Double speak. sc2CON is an organization founded by the teams. They can claim the teams acted on their own individually all they want, but individuals don't act as a block. s2con members: IM, MVP, NSHoSeo, oGs, Prime, StarTale, ZeNEX Korean teams mentioned in NASL's announcement: oGs, StarTale, WeMadeFox, TSL, Prime Korean teams NOT mentioned in NASL's announcement but are not participating in NASL: SlayerS, FXO Korea Total of 7 teams withdraw from NASL. Only 3 of them are in S2CON. I'm not sure what the difference between s2con and sc2Con is, if there is any, and where a list of their respective members can be found. But as far as I'm concerned (and if both are the same group) then your post appears to be incorrect. How else do you explain that TSL had recently been expelled from sc2CON only to see that ban overturned, leaving them as part of that group, and the issue of FXO's recent departure from sc2CON, which awaits conclusion as well? For both teams to leave this group both teams have to be part of it first. TSL is now part of it again and the issue with FXO isn't finished yet either. So your list should read Show nested quote +s2con members: IM, MVP, NSHoSeo, oGs, Prime, StarTale, ZeNEX, TSL, FXO (possibly)
Korean teams mentioned in NASL's announcement: oGs, StarTale, WeMadeFox, TSL, Prime
Korean teams NOT mentioned in NASL's announcement but are not participating in NASL: SlayerS, FXO Korea
Total of 7 teams withdraw from NASL. Only 3 5 of them are in S2CON.
They are the same. SC2CON is a misspelling.
The list is correct. You can find it at www.s2con.com which is in Korean. Don't be fooled, 'select language' button doesn't do anything.
TSL left S2CON and didn't go back, and have no intention of going back. Confirmed by coach Lee.
FXO is at the moment not part of S2CON. Confirmed by FXOBoss.
Actually, FXO Korea were part of S2CON when other teams decided to withdraw. After NASL's announcement, FXO Korea withdrew from S2CON and NASL (not sure which order).
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On August 15 2011 00:05 Azureflames wrote:I think this should be posted together. + Show Spoiler +WeMadeFox contract signed July 25th. Prime contracted signed July 26th. oGs contracts signed July 26th. So from the period in which they were signed (July 25-26), it took TEN days for Mr.Chae (not even a person from SC2Con) to tell me that the Korean players had issues. After I responded, it took another FIVE days (August 9th) for Mr.Chae to notify the NASL that Koreans would not play in Season 2.
About the bold part; I wonder why people are upset about this. I mean, maybe the koreans were actually busy trying to come up with a better solution, to find another way to settle this whole issue.
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I don't really buy this. The level of miscommunication reads more like people lying originally to save face. It's easier to say you can't do something than you don't want to. I have a hunch various teams or players used the excuse that they were told they couldn't perform, rather than simply tell the truth.
Regardless, everybody has to get their shit together.
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SC2Con and the Korean scene are incomprehensible. Just ignore them. Stop supporting them in any way (including watching Korean tournaments) until they get their act together.
They are terrible for SC2 and they bring drama after drama, then try to wiggle their way out of it. It's been non-stop with them for weeks now. Stop watching their teams/players and they will get the message.
Let them do what they want and SC2 will be much worse off in the end.
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yay, more PR bs, maybe in around 1 or 2 months we will have an idea of what actually happened
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On August 15 2011 00:24 Kurr wrote: SC2Con and the Korean scene are incomprehensible. Just ignore them. Stop supporting them in any way (including watching Korean tournaments) until they get their act together.
They are terrible for SC2 and they bring drama after drama, then try to wiggle their way out of it. It's been non-stop with them for weeks now. Stop watching their teams/players and they will get the message.
Let them do what they want and SC2 will be much worse off in the end.
Why watch the worst players/tournaments (no foreigner tournament is close to the GSL in any way) just because you've a cultural link with those ?
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On August 15 2011 00:24 Kurr wrote: SC2Con and the Korean scene are incomprehensible. Just ignore them. Stop supporting them in any way (including watching Korean tournaments) until they get their act together.
They are terrible for SC2 and they bring drama after drama, then try to wiggle their way out of it. It's been non-stop with them for weeks now. Stop watching their teams/players and they will get the message.
Let them do what they want and SC2 will be much worse off in the end.
Were not for the koreans you wouldnt even be playing SC2.
Get your shit together and don't say bullshit.
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On August 15 2011 00:28 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:24 Kurr wrote: SC2Con and the Korean scene are incomprehensible. Just ignore them. Stop supporting them in any way (including watching Korean tournaments) until they get their act together.
They are terrible for SC2 and they bring drama after drama, then try to wiggle their way out of it. It's been non-stop with them for weeks now. Stop watching their teams/players and they will get the message.
Let them do what they want and SC2 will be much worse off in the end. Were not for the koreans you wouldnt even be playing SC2. Get your shit together and don't say bullshit.
I bought SC2 because it's a blizzard RTS and I've loved all of them in the past (especially custom games). I've played like 10 games in the past year (all 4v4s) and overall I just like watching SC2 more than playing. That has nothing do with this however.
This constant drama is what's bullshit. I'll support the foreign scene instead. There is a bit of drama here and there but nothing on this level and never so often.
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On August 15 2011 00:31 Kurr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:28 fabiano wrote:On August 15 2011 00:24 Kurr wrote: SC2Con and the Korean scene are incomprehensible. Just ignore them. Stop supporting them in any way (including watching Korean tournaments) until they get their act together.
They are terrible for SC2 and they bring drama after drama, then try to wiggle their way out of it. It's been non-stop with them for weeks now. Stop watching their teams/players and they will get the message.
Let them do what they want and SC2 will be much worse off in the end. Were not for the koreans you wouldnt even be playing SC2. Get your shit together and don't say bullshit. I bought SC2 because it's a blizzard RTS and I've loved all of them in the past (especially custom games). I've played like 10 games in the past year (all 4v4s) and overall I just like watching SC2 more than playing. That has nothing do with this however. This constant drama is what's bullshit. I'll support the foreign scene instead. There is a bit of drama here and there but nothing on this level and never so often.
You're serious? The NASL is korean ?
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Lets hope that these issues (abounding recently) are just eSports growing pains...
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On August 15 2011 00:31 Imres wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:31 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2011 00:28 fabiano wrote:On August 15 2011 00:24 Kurr wrote: SC2Con and the Korean scene are incomprehensible. Just ignore them. Stop supporting them in any way (including watching Korean tournaments) until they get their act together.
They are terrible for SC2 and they bring drama after drama, then try to wiggle their way out of it. It's been non-stop with them for weeks now. Stop watching their teams/players and they will get the message.
Let them do what they want and SC2 will be much worse off in the end. Were not for the koreans you wouldnt even be playing SC2. Get your shit together and don't say bullshit. I bought SC2 because it's a blizzard RTS and I've loved all of them in the past (especially custom games). I've played like 10 games in the past year (all 4v4s) and overall I just like watching SC2 more than playing. That has nothing do with this however. This constant drama is what's bullshit. I'll support the foreign scene instead. There is a bit of drama here and there but nothing on this level and never so often. You're serious? The NASL is korean ?
Hmm,what? When did I ever say that? Please quote me.
SC2Con is what I'm avoiding IE GSL because that's where all the korean teams are.
NASL is void of korean teams now. *EDIT : And the Koreans in NASL have nothing to do with SC2Con hence not a problem.
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Overall your post is extremely offensive to the koreans, many of them who have not a single drop of guilt in any of it.
And I meant that were not for the success of BW in Korea, there is a high chance that there wouldnt be SC2 at all, so if you are going to offend koreans, at least remember that they are the founders of the SC scene.
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On August 14 2011 22:08 Williammm wrote: It was mentioned earlier that the players were made to confirm and sign contracts in late June before the NASL finals when things weren't ironed out yet. Issues about how the players were treated were raised well before the commencement of NASL season 2 and apparently those issues still haven't been addressed yet. Despite the issues, NASL went ahead with production ignoring the requests of the Korean players.
Subsequently, the Korean players withdrew because they were left with no choice. Boxer withdrew from season 2 well before this as speculation also points towards what everyone has been saying, that treatment of the players as well as the schedule were too difficult to commit and the prize money wasn't worth the trouble. This.
From Korean standpoint, it's just weird. The ss2 qualifier started when ss1 wasn't over yet. At that point of time, the Koreans didn't know how the finals would be, how NASL were going to return the deposit back, and so on. If I were them, I would raise the question too. It's just not how the East does things. Yeah you can say that it's NASL, they can do whatever they want with the rules, but it's not like it's forbidden to the Koreans to withdraw either, so they withdrew, big deal.
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On August 15 2011 00:35 Kurr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:31 Imres wrote:On August 15 2011 00:31 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2011 00:28 fabiano wrote:On August 15 2011 00:24 Kurr wrote: SC2Con and the Korean scene are incomprehensible. Just ignore them. Stop supporting them in any way (including watching Korean tournaments) until they get their act together.
They are terrible for SC2 and they bring drama after drama, then try to wiggle their way out of it. It's been non-stop with them for weeks now. Stop watching their teams/players and they will get the message.
Let them do what they want and SC2 will be much worse off in the end. Were not for the koreans you wouldnt even be playing SC2. Get your shit together and don't say bullshit. I bought SC2 because it's a blizzard RTS and I've loved all of them in the past (especially custom games). I've played like 10 games in the past year (all 4v4s) and overall I just like watching SC2 more than playing. That has nothing do with this however. This constant drama is what's bullshit. I'll support the foreign scene instead. There is a bit of drama here and there but nothing on this level and never so often. You're serious? The NASL is korean ? Hmm,what? When did I ever say that? Please quote me. SC2Con is what I'm avoiding IE GSL because that's where all the korean teams are. NASL is void of korean teams now. *EDIT : And the Koreans in NASL have nothing to do with SC2Con hence not a problem.
There is a bit of drama, I wonder, there is as much drama with NASL than with SC2Con, it's why I wonder If xeris/russ are korean citizen now, infiltrating the noble foreigner community.
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On August 15 2011 00:35 Kurr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:31 Imres wrote:On August 15 2011 00:31 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2011 00:28 fabiano wrote:On August 15 2011 00:24 Kurr wrote: SC2Con and the Korean scene are incomprehensible. Just ignore them. Stop supporting them in any way (including watching Korean tournaments) until they get their act together.
They are terrible for SC2 and they bring drama after drama, then try to wiggle their way out of it. It's been non-stop with them for weeks now. Stop watching their teams/players and they will get the message.
Let them do what they want and SC2 will be much worse off in the end. Were not for the koreans you wouldnt even be playing SC2. Get your shit together and don't say bullshit. I bought SC2 because it's a blizzard RTS and I've loved all of them in the past (especially custom games). I've played like 10 games in the past year (all 4v4s) and overall I just like watching SC2 more than playing. That has nothing do with this however. This constant drama is what's bullshit. I'll support the foreign scene instead. There is a bit of drama here and there but nothing on this level and never so often. You're serious? The NASL is korean ? Hmm,what? When did I ever say that? Please quote me. SC2Con is what I'm avoiding IE GSL because that's where all the korean teams are. NASL is void of korean teams now. *EDIT : And the Koreans in NASL have nothing to do with SC2Con hence not a problem.
lol you realise sc2con ALSO has nothing to do with GSL. Sc2Con has no power over GSL or any power over what league a player joins. GSL = NASL essentially, neither of them are putting a ban Foreigners/Koreans respectively. If you don't watch gsl, you also not supporting players like Thorzain/Naniwa/Huk for flying over there.
ATM the korean/foreigner scene are intertwining. You see some korean players in nearly every tournament these days and Jinro/huk and now thorzain/naniwa are repping the foreigners in GSL. You boycotting sc2 is not going to do anything...but HURT ESPORTS EVEN MORE~!!! (sorry couldn't resist =P )
But honestly, boycotting is probably the worse thing that you can do. Honestly, if you didn't click on these drama threads, you wouldn't notice any difference in the GSL or w/e.
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On August 15 2011 00:40 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 22:08 Williammm wrote: It was mentioned earlier that the players were made to confirm and sign contracts in late June before the NASL finals when things weren't ironed out yet. Issues about how the players were treated were raised well before the commencement of NASL season 2 and apparently those issues still haven't been addressed yet. Despite the issues, NASL went ahead with production ignoring the requests of the Korean players.
Subsequently, the Korean players withdrew because they were left with no choice. Boxer withdrew from season 2 well before this as speculation also points towards what everyone has been saying, that treatment of the players as well as the schedule were too difficult to commit and the prize money wasn't worth the trouble. This. From Korean standpoint, it's just weird. The ss2 qualifier started when ss1 wasn't over yet. At that point of time, the Koreans didn't know how the finals would be, how NASL were going to return the deposit back, and so on. If I were them, I would raise the question too. It's just not how the East does things. Yeah you can say that it's NASL, they can do whatever they want with the rules, but it's not like it's forbidden to the Koreans to withdraw either, so they withdrew, big deal.
Unfortunately the mob mentality to attack a side persists in this community with no logic behind it. Can`t believe TL community have grown to be so damn bitchy.
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Ugh, this is getting convoluted.
I have to say though I'm skeptical about this claim from SC2Con/teams. It seems that they're never involved and it's never their fault yet their name always comes up first. They've even made such claims when they blatantly weren't true.
As for the players/team, I can't help but feeling there is a degree of peer pressure at this point. I can't help but feel that it has become a NASL vs Korea, thing, and of course, you side with your Korean brothers, not with those awful foreigners.
And also, given the nature of complaints that FXO issued, I would not put the management in Korea ABOVE peer-pressure and bad mouthing of NASL so as to encourage the NASL vs Korea view.
It makes perfect sense why some teams would withdraw, but not all. Actually, it makes sense for some teams to definitely be in NASL given that other teams have withdrawn, because it's almost sure money.
That's why I think there is some degree of peer pressure going on, that perhaps SC2Con is encouraging and that's why their name keeps coming up.
Shame that it's like that, but it's a cultural difference and can't be expected to be changed overnight.
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So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here.
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To add to the above, basically, if you are pressuring other teams into siding with you, and saying things like, "Are you really going to be in NASL? Do you know what they did? *insert lies*" or "If you don't do this, x will happen." (as FXO experienced),
Then what difference does it make if the ban was not issued officially? It practically is at that point because these dynamics are important in Korean culture...you can't just rise up against the group easily without feeling guilty and ashamed.
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How I read this is that NASL failed to attract Korean players. Play time might be an issue: having to wake up early/stay up really late really sucks (makes you just a lot more tired/slow the next day or two).
This is a pretty big deal: Korea is where most of the skill is at.
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On August 15 2011 00:54 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:35 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2011 00:31 Imres wrote:On August 15 2011 00:31 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2011 00:28 fabiano wrote:On August 15 2011 00:24 Kurr wrote: SC2Con and the Korean scene are incomprehensible. Just ignore them. Stop supporting them in any way (including watching Korean tournaments) until they get their act together.
They are terrible for SC2 and they bring drama after drama, then try to wiggle their way out of it. It's been non-stop with them for weeks now. Stop watching their teams/players and they will get the message.
Let them do what they want and SC2 will be much worse off in the end. Were not for the koreans you wouldnt even be playing SC2. Get your shit together and don't say bullshit. I bought SC2 because it's a blizzard RTS and I've loved all of them in the past (especially custom games). I've played like 10 games in the past year (all 4v4s) and overall I just like watching SC2 more than playing. That has nothing do with this however. This constant drama is what's bullshit. I'll support the foreign scene instead. There is a bit of drama here and there but nothing on this level and never so often. You're serious? The NASL is korean ? Hmm,what? When did I ever say that? Please quote me. SC2Con is what I'm avoiding IE GSL because that's where all the korean teams are. NASL is void of korean teams now. *EDIT : And the Koreans in NASL have nothing to do with SC2Con hence not a problem. lol you realise sc2con ALSO has nothing to do with GSL. Sc2Con has no power over GSL or any power over what league a player joins. GSL = NASL essentially, neither of them are putting a ban Foreigners/Koreans respectively. If you don't watch gsl, you also not supporting players like Thorzain/Naniwa/Huk for flying over there. ATM the korean/foreigner scene are intertwining. You see some korean players in nearly every tournament these days and Jinro/huk and now thorzain/naniwa are repping the foreigners in GSL. You boycotting sc2 is not going to do anything...but HURT ESPORTS EVEN MORE~!!! (sorry couldn't resist =P ) But honestly, boycotting is probably the worse thing that you can do. Honestly, if you didn't click on these drama threads, you wouldn't notice any difference in the GSL or w/e.
You're free to watch them if you want. I know GSL isn't SC2Con but it's the closest thing I can avoid since all their players are there.
I know it won't mean much but if plenty of people boycott them, they will understand that people don't want their bullshit drama, just good games.
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On August 14 2011 22:01 flakmonkey wrote: sC didn't wish to participate in NASL? That doesn't make any sense to me. Why would he attempt to qualify for the tournament in the first place?
Either he was told by his team or maybe told by his team/sc2con/friends/some guy to change his mind that his offical statement is that he doesn't want to participate. I don't know just a clue, this is pure theoretical.
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On August 15 2011 01:01 Kurr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:54 me_viet wrote:On August 15 2011 00:35 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2011 00:31 Imres wrote:On August 15 2011 00:31 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2011 00:28 fabiano wrote:On August 15 2011 00:24 Kurr wrote: SC2Con and the Korean scene are incomprehensible. Just ignore them. Stop supporting them in any way (including watching Korean tournaments) until they get their act together.
They are terrible for SC2 and they bring drama after drama, then try to wiggle their way out of it. It's been non-stop with them for weeks now. Stop watching their teams/players and they will get the message.
Let them do what they want and SC2 will be much worse off in the end. Were not for the koreans you wouldnt even be playing SC2. Get your shit together and don't say bullshit. I bought SC2 because it's a blizzard RTS and I've loved all of them in the past (especially custom games). I've played like 10 games in the past year (all 4v4s) and overall I just like watching SC2 more than playing. That has nothing do with this however. This constant drama is what's bullshit. I'll support the foreign scene instead. There is a bit of drama here and there but nothing on this level and never so often. You're serious? The NASL is korean ? Hmm,what? When did I ever say that? Please quote me. SC2Con is what I'm avoiding IE GSL because that's where all the korean teams are. NASL is void of korean teams now. *EDIT : And the Koreans in NASL have nothing to do with SC2Con hence not a problem. lol you realise sc2con ALSO has nothing to do with GSL. Sc2Con has no power over GSL or any power over what league a player joins. GSL = NASL essentially, neither of them are putting a ban Foreigners/Koreans respectively. If you don't watch gsl, you also not supporting players like Thorzain/Naniwa/Huk for flying over there. ATM the korean/foreigner scene are intertwining. You see some korean players in nearly every tournament these days and Jinro/huk and now thorzain/naniwa are repping the foreigners in GSL. You boycotting sc2 is not going to do anything...but HURT ESPORTS EVEN MORE~!!! (sorry couldn't resist =P ) But honestly, boycotting is probably the worse thing that you can do. Honestly, if you didn't click on these drama threads, you wouldn't notice any difference in the GSL or w/e. You're free to watch them if you want. I know GSL isn't SC2Con but it's the closest thing I can avoid since all their players are there. I know it won't mean much but if plenty of people boycott them, they will understand that people don't want their bullshit drama, just good games. You don't make sense. GOMTV has nothing to do with this whole mess. Your behavior does not compute.
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On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair.
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On August 15 2011 01:01 Kurr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:54 me_viet wrote:On August 15 2011 00:35 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2011 00:31 Imres wrote:On August 15 2011 00:31 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2011 00:28 fabiano wrote:On August 15 2011 00:24 Kurr wrote: SC2Con and the Korean scene are incomprehensible. Just ignore them. Stop supporting them in any way (including watching Korean tournaments) until they get their act together.
They are terrible for SC2 and they bring drama after drama, then try to wiggle their way out of it. It's been non-stop with them for weeks now. Stop watching their teams/players and they will get the message.
Let them do what they want and SC2 will be much worse off in the end. Were not for the koreans you wouldnt even be playing SC2. Get your shit together and don't say bullshit. I bought SC2 because it's a blizzard RTS and I've loved all of them in the past (especially custom games). I've played like 10 games in the past year (all 4v4s) and overall I just like watching SC2 more than playing. That has nothing do with this however. This constant drama is what's bullshit. I'll support the foreign scene instead. There is a bit of drama here and there but nothing on this level and never so often. You're serious? The NASL is korean ? Hmm,what? When did I ever say that? Please quote me. SC2Con is what I'm avoiding IE GSL because that's where all the korean teams are. NASL is void of korean teams now. *EDIT : And the Koreans in NASL have nothing to do with SC2Con hence not a problem. lol you realise sc2con ALSO has nothing to do with GSL. Sc2Con has no power over GSL or any power over what league a player joins. GSL = NASL essentially, neither of them are putting a ban Foreigners/Koreans respectively. If you don't watch gsl, you also not supporting players like Thorzain/Naniwa/Huk for flying over there. ATM the korean/foreigner scene are intertwining. You see some korean players in nearly every tournament these days and Jinro/huk and now thorzain/naniwa are repping the foreigners in GSL. You boycotting sc2 is not going to do anything...but HURT ESPORTS EVEN MORE~!!! (sorry couldn't resist =P ) But honestly, boycotting is probably the worse thing that you can do. Honestly, if you didn't click on these drama threads, you wouldn't notice any difference in the GSL or w/e. You're free to watch them if you want. I know GSL isn't SC2Con but it's the closest thing I can avoid since all their players are there. I know it won't mean much but if plenty of people boycott them, they will understand that people don't want their bullshit drama, just good games.
Currently they've the only valuable Terran players except Thorzain's TvP and TvT, the only zerg who understands ZvZ enough to get an insane ZvZ ratio, the only P who get some results against Z...
Yeah foreigner provide good games in what, PvP, TvT, ZvP... Cool...
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On August 15 2011 01:03 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:01 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2011 00:54 me_viet wrote:On August 15 2011 00:35 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2011 00:31 Imres wrote:On August 15 2011 00:31 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2011 00:28 fabiano wrote:On August 15 2011 00:24 Kurr wrote: SC2Con and the Korean scene are incomprehensible. Just ignore them. Stop supporting them in any way (including watching Korean tournaments) until they get their act together.
They are terrible for SC2 and they bring drama after drama, then try to wiggle their way out of it. It's been non-stop with them for weeks now. Stop watching their teams/players and they will get the message.
Let them do what they want and SC2 will be much worse off in the end. Were not for the koreans you wouldnt even be playing SC2. Get your shit together and don't say bullshit. I bought SC2 because it's a blizzard RTS and I've loved all of them in the past (especially custom games). I've played like 10 games in the past year (all 4v4s) and overall I just like watching SC2 more than playing. That has nothing do with this however. This constant drama is what's bullshit. I'll support the foreign scene instead. There is a bit of drama here and there but nothing on this level and never so often. You're serious? The NASL is korean ? Hmm,what? When did I ever say that? Please quote me. SC2Con is what I'm avoiding IE GSL because that's where all the korean teams are. NASL is void of korean teams now. *EDIT : And the Koreans in NASL have nothing to do with SC2Con hence not a problem. lol you realise sc2con ALSO has nothing to do with GSL. Sc2Con has no power over GSL or any power over what league a player joins. GSL = NASL essentially, neither of them are putting a ban Foreigners/Koreans respectively. If you don't watch gsl, you also not supporting players like Thorzain/Naniwa/Huk for flying over there. ATM the korean/foreigner scene are intertwining. You see some korean players in nearly every tournament these days and Jinro/huk and now thorzain/naniwa are repping the foreigners in GSL. You boycotting sc2 is not going to do anything...but HURT ESPORTS EVEN MORE~!!! (sorry couldn't resist =P ) But honestly, boycotting is probably the worse thing that you can do. Honestly, if you didn't click on these drama threads, you wouldn't notice any difference in the GSL or w/e. You're free to watch them if you want. I know GSL isn't SC2Con but it's the closest thing I can avoid since all their players are there. I know it won't mean much but if plenty of people boycott them, they will understand that people don't want their bullshit drama, just good games. You don't make sense. GOMTV has nothing to do with this whole mess. Your behavior does not compute.
He says he doesn`t want drama yet tries to create one by making it a big deal and boycotting GOMTV for no apparent reason lol.
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This just keeps getting more and more complicated
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On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair.
cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games
its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean
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On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair.
No. The season is too long, too useless, it's just easier for them (I bet they will) to just try their chance in the open tournament. Basically if they do that the one who'll win the open tournament has a good chance to gain 50k without putting too much efforts.
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just look at PuMa and how much prizemoney he won with a single tournament. i really can't understand why even a single korean sc2 pro would refuse to participate at nasl without clear reasons like GSL Code S or A. @imres: your idea with the koreans planning to qualify in the open tournament makes sense. well if that's so it's NASLs fault for having a system which does not make it desireable to participate in the pre finals season. maybe they should make some modifications there. just look at poor ret with his awesome pre season performance and then having to play against puma. they have to change the seeding system to make it fair.
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On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean Did you even follow the discussion? Read the offer from NASL in season 2 again.
Here, I did it for you:
We presented a final offer, one which redistributed our prize pool to guarantee each player $2,000 (a $1,000 minimum prize in addition to the $1,000 travel stipend).
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Well, at this point, i'm going to support NASL in their endeavor, since they seem to be the only ones providing receipts etc, to back up that they made all the claims.
Sure, sc2con might not have barred all the teams from participating, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of korean teams bowed out at the last second, and FXOboss pulled FXO from sc2con.
He seems like a reasonable man, and i'm not going to second guess his judgement.
Edit:
On August 15 2011 01:07 Imres wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. No. The season is too long, too useless, it's just easier for them (I bet they will) to just try their chance in the open tournament. Basically if they do that the one who'll win the open tournament has a good chance to gain 50k without putting too much efforts.
As much as i hate to say it, i'd rather see them do away with the open tournament style, to keep teams from just throwing a bunch of guys in at the end to try to win it.
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On August 15 2011 01:07 SkyTheUnknown wrote: just look at PuMa and how much prizemoney he won with a single tournament. i really can't understand why even a single korean sc2 pro would refuse to participate at nasl without clear reasons like GSL Code S or A.
Did you see the amount of koreans in NASL2 compared to the first one? The level of competition wasn`t exactly going to be the same and as easy because of all the koreans who qualified through the qualifiers. You should add more context.
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On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean
What and everyone else in the tourney has to pay for their own trip? That is unfair to the players from Europe who have to take flights to the States with their own money, and the Korean players get paid to come over to the States like you want.
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On August 15 2011 01:08 reneg wrote: Well, at this point, i'm going to support NASL in their endeavor, since they seem to be the only ones providing receipts etc, to back up that they made all the claims.
Sure, sc2con might not have barred all the teams from participating, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of korean teams bowed out at the last second, and FXOboss pulled FXO from sc2con.
He seems like a reasonable man, and i'm not going to second guess his judgement.
FXOBoSs pulled out because of korean business approach, not because of this NASL drama...
Edit: The Open tournament seems so obvious to me, there will be little competition if a top Korean wins, it, Sen, and ?
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On August 15 2011 01:10 Kieofire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean What and everyone else in the tourney has to pay for their own trip? That is would unfair to the players from Europe who have to take flights to the States with their own money, and the Korean players get paid to come over to the States like you want.
But NASL provides a traveling stipend to help you cover. and are willing to pay for you, just by using some of the money you take in winnings.
You get basically a free trip to another country, you just have to come home with a little less EXTRA money. Personally, i'd jump all over that opportunity, but i guess i have different priorities
Edit:
On August 15 2011 01:11 Imres wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:08 reneg wrote: Well, at this point, i'm going to support NASL in their endeavor, since they seem to be the only ones providing receipts etc, to back up that they made all the claims.
Sure, sc2con might not have barred all the teams from participating, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of korean teams bowed out at the last second, and FXOboss pulled FXO from sc2con.
He seems like a reasonable man, and i'm not going to second guess his judgement. You try to be dumb or you're dumb? FXOBoSs pulled out because of korean business approach, not because of this NASL drama...
No....I didn't mean to imply that he took them out b/c of NASL. I meant he took them out, i don't see any additional reason to look at them as a favorable organization. That's all.
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I like how NASL tried to make others look bad then they get called out on it they apologize. So typical of this poorly run organization.
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Man this whole thing is getting convoluted. I just want to jump ahead to the consensual resolution of this whole thing.
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You know what, I really think at this point the teams involved and NASL need to sit down and talk.
I really wouldn't be surprised if certain team managers, or sc2con, have been pressuring and lying to the other teams to get them to not participate either.
Likewise, I really don't think NASL understands what the problem truly is.
This is the kind of negotiations that you don't go through 3rd and 4th parties. NASL didn't even know who they were talking to, and how could the teams then know what NASL was saying, since they barred contact and let someone else do the talking for them?
Get together, in a room, and talk this out. I really don't think this is a wise decision for either the players nor NASL, so it would be in both of their best interest to participate. But communication seems to have been terrible.
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On August 15 2011 01:08 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean Did you even follow the discussion? Read the offer from NASL in season 2 again.
did you read it ?
NASL offer to give $1000 for transport & accommodation and to give $1000 prize even if you lose 1st round
so the money team need to forked out up front are : $500 deposit + ~$500-600 for transport & accommodation (after substracting the $1000 that NASL gave)
so that $1100 up front
then 60 days later they will get their $500 deposit back and the $1000 prize
so after 5 months they will get $400 at worst case scenario
yeah, not for everybody
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FXO left the SC2CON, how is choya going to deny that they were blocking them when FXOBoss just posted they left for that exact reason.
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and people wonder why there's such a large amount of division between different countries regarding e-sports, stuff like this is the reason, pretty damn poor by NASL to make them out to be the bad guy if this is true.
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On August 15 2011 01:11 reneg wrote:Edit: Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:11 Imres wrote:On August 15 2011 01:08 reneg wrote: Well, at this point, i'm going to support NASL in their endeavor, since they seem to be the only ones providing receipts etc, to back up that they made all the claims.
Sure, sc2con might not have barred all the teams from participating, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of korean teams bowed out at the last second, and FXOboss pulled FXO from sc2con.
He seems like a reasonable man, and i'm not going to second guess his judgement. You try to be dumb or you're dumb? FXOBoSs pulled out because of korean business approach, not because of this NASL drama... No....I didn't mean to imply that he took them out b/c of NASL. I meant he took them out, i don't see any additional reason to look at them as a favorable organization. That's all.
It's just a cultural thing, a bit shady but just that. You don't have the same business approach in different countries, and imo FXOBoSs reacted perfectly, retiring + transparency, and that's what westerners are looking for.
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On August 15 2011 01:17 nGBeast wrote: FXO left the SC2CON, how is choya going to deny that they were blocking them when FXOBoss just posted they left for that exact reason.
FXO left because of constant (empty, but still annoying) threats from SC2Con, ridiculous demands, midnight phone calls, etc.
Granted FXO did say that they are not involved in the NASL drama, and that it's only 1 person from SC2Con, but honestly, I think FXO is playing nice and being PR.
No matter how you spin this, it does reflect badly on the organization, and it does explain at least some things about the NASL situation, if not all.
It really doesn't matter whether the teams reached a decision "independently" if there are people in SC2Con willing to call you at midnight, willing to threaten you, etc.
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lol. the original press release by NASL had a very biased and lacking vibe to it, guess this was why
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On August 15 2011 01:15 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:08 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean Did you even follow the discussion? Read the offer from NASL in season 2 again. did you read it ? NASL offer to give $1000 for transport & accommodation and to give $1000 prize even if you lose 1st round so the money team need to forked out up front are : $500 deposit + ~$500-600 for transport & accommodation (after substracting the $1000 that NASL gave) so that $1100 up front then 60 days later they will get their $500 deposit back and the $1000 prize so after 5 months they will get $400 at worst case scenario yeah, not for everybody A guaranteed $400 is not enough? If they can't find someone who can lend them 1000$ for a few months then these teams have a bad managment.
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On August 15 2011 01:14 whateverpeeps wrote: You know what, I really think at this point the teams involved and NASL need to sit down and talk.
I really wouldn't be surprised if certain team managers, or sc2con, have been pressuring and lying to the other teams to get them to not participate either.
Likewise, I really don't think NASL understands what the problem truly is.
This is the kind of negotiations that you don't go through 3rd and 4th parties. NASL didn't even know who they were talking to, and how could the teams then know what NASL was saying, since they barred contact and let someone else do the talking for them?
Get together, in a room, and talk this out. I really don't think this is a wise decision for either the players nor NASL, so it would be in both of their best interest to participate. But communication seems to have been terrible.
The problem is: nobody directly involved in this situation is actually talking to me. I have repeatedly contacted those in Korea that I know and nobody: a) knows who is directly behind Koreans withdrawing, b) responds to me with anything specific.
I have to rely on 3rd party information continuously because nobody actually bothers to contact me. Every Korean team has my contact info, and they can easily email, skype, or MSN msg me at any time, but they don't. I hear things through other people, and some of it turns out to be mis information, and some of it is accurate.
Either way, I'm just going to stay silent on the issue until I hear from someone official. This whole situation has gone on MUCH farther than intended. The fact of the matter is: Koreans didn't want to play NASL anymore, and they withdrew, and now we're going to replace them and continue with the Season.
They told me very last minute, so it had to delay the season. That's all. This is becoming way too dramatic
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On August 15 2011 01:10 Kieofire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean What and everyone else in the tourney has to pay for their own trip? That is unfair to the players from Europe who have to take flights to the States with their own money, and the Korean players get paid to come over to the States like you want.
no, for everybody else the $1000 stipend and $1000 minimum prize is good enough since they dont have anything else to concentrate on (GSL)
so for them it make sense to take NASL offer
the Korean on the other hands looks to have their priority elsewhere, and probably seeing how Puma won the last one are all planning to play in open tournament instead without need to bother with the 3 months league
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Well hopefully people don't just auto side with playxp or the other korean media like they always do but...
Both sides are clearly confused they quote NASL from two different replies and claim it is the same? NASL though it was S2con but it wasn't but it is the same teams that are part of s2con but not using s2con as the official channel of width drawl? Why not?
Fishy shit from both sides.
The playxp article also has NOTHING to do with the original fact the koreans left the tournament after it started and contracts were signed anyways, they try diverge to the fact that NASL was calling "them" (the teams involved) s2con instead of individual teams not acting through s2con, and they try to act like its a huge deal and nasl is plotting against s2con?
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On August 15 2011 01:10 Kieofire wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean What and everyone else in the tourney has to pay for their own trip? That is unfair to the players from Europe who have to take flights to the States with their own money, and the Korean players get paid to come over to the States like you want.
Everyone else is paid $1000 as traveling stipend too. The problem is $1000 is not enough to cover a round trip flight + hotel, unless you book extremely early. For teams lacking sponsors in Korea, it is too high of a risk to take. For teams from Europe, they mostly have sponsors helping them cover the travel cost (from what I understand). So for Koreans, it looks like they have to pay out of their prize, while for Europeans, it looks like they receive the prize in full.
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On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean
Do you really believe $1000+ is the problem? what about players like MC, Nada, DRG, Genius, whole fxo. They are all sponsored, so they wont (and their team) even pay a single $, and they would most likely end ind the top and win alot of money.
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On August 15 2011 01:24 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:14 whateverpeeps wrote: You know what, I really think at this point the teams involved and NASL need to sit down and talk.
I really wouldn't be surprised if certain team managers, or sc2con, have been pressuring and lying to the other teams to get them to not participate either.
Likewise, I really don't think NASL understands what the problem truly is.
This is the kind of negotiations that you don't go through 3rd and 4th parties. NASL didn't even know who they were talking to, and how could the teams then know what NASL was saying, since they barred contact and let someone else do the talking for them?
Get together, in a room, and talk this out. I really don't think this is a wise decision for either the players nor NASL, so it would be in both of their best interest to participate. But communication seems to have been terrible. The problem is: nobody directly involved in this situation is actually talking to me. I have repeatedly contacted those in Korea that I know and nobody: a) knows who is directly behind Koreans withdrawing, b) responds to me with anything specific. I have to rely on 3rd party information continuously because nobody actually bothers to contact me. Every Korean team has my contact info, and they can easily email, skype, or MSN msg me at any time, but they don't. I hear things through other people, and some of it turns out to be mis information, and some of it is accurate. Either way, I'm just going to stay silent on the issue until I hear from someone official. This whole situation has gone on MUCH farther than intended. The fact of the matter is: Koreans didn't want to play NASL anymore, and they withdrew, and now we're going to replace them and continue with the Season. They told me very last minute, so it had to delay the season. That's all. This is becoming way too dramatic
You are seriously surprised? NASL decides to make an entire post on TL with all the details yet the vibe from that is that the koreans are in the wrong and you didn`t think it would go much further with the drama? Give me a break, that post from NASL was just asking for drama.
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On August 15 2011 01:23 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:15 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:08 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean Did you even follow the discussion? Read the offer from NASL in season 2 again. did you read it ? NASL offer to give $1000 for transport & accommodation and to give $1000 prize even if you lose 1st round so the money team need to forked out up front are : $500 deposit + ~$500-600 for transport & accommodation (after substracting the $1000 that NASL gave) so that $1100 up front then 60 days later they will get their $500 deposit back and the $1000 prize so after 5 months they will get $400 at worst case scenario yeah, not for everybody A guaranteed $400 is not enough? If they can't find someone who can lend them 1000$ for a few months then these teams have a bad managment.
a guaranteed $400 over 5 months period ? thats even less than 3rd word country minimum wage (my home country for example where the minimum wage is $100 per month)
Team would prefer to focus their player effort elsewhere, heck even the code A give $180 if you lost in the first round. 5 months losing in code A first round already netted you $900, more than twice what NASL give
its all about priority since player cant do everything at once, and NASL looks to have dropped to the bottom of the list for Korean team, money wise
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On August 15 2011 01:28 mango_destroyer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:24 Xeris wrote:On August 15 2011 01:14 whateverpeeps wrote: You know what, I really think at this point the teams involved and NASL need to sit down and talk.
I really wouldn't be surprised if certain team managers, or sc2con, have been pressuring and lying to the other teams to get them to not participate either.
Likewise, I really don't think NASL understands what the problem truly is.
This is the kind of negotiations that you don't go through 3rd and 4th parties. NASL didn't even know who they were talking to, and how could the teams then know what NASL was saying, since they barred contact and let someone else do the talking for them?
Get together, in a room, and talk this out. I really don't think this is a wise decision for either the players nor NASL, so it would be in both of their best interest to participate. But communication seems to have been terrible. The problem is: nobody directly involved in this situation is actually talking to me. I have repeatedly contacted those in Korea that I know and nobody: a) knows who is directly behind Koreans withdrawing, b) responds to me with anything specific. I have to rely on 3rd party information continuously because nobody actually bothers to contact me. Every Korean team has my contact info, and they can easily email, skype, or MSN msg me at any time, but they don't. I hear things through other people, and some of it turns out to be mis information, and some of it is accurate. Either way, I'm just going to stay silent on the issue until I hear from someone official. This whole situation has gone on MUCH farther than intended. The fact of the matter is: Koreans didn't want to play NASL anymore, and they withdrew, and now we're going to replace them and continue with the Season. They told me very last minute, so it had to delay the season. That's all. This is becoming way too dramatic You are seriously surprised? NASL decides to make an entire post on TL with "no transparency" yet the vibe from that is that the koreans are in the wrong and you didn`t think it would go much further with the drama? Give me a break, that post from NASL was just asking for drama.
That surprises you from Xeris? He's as good as casting than being the PR guy...
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On August 15 2011 01:28 mango_destroyer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:24 Xeris wrote:On August 15 2011 01:14 whateverpeeps wrote: You know what, I really think at this point the teams involved and NASL need to sit down and talk.
I really wouldn't be surprised if certain team managers, or sc2con, have been pressuring and lying to the other teams to get them to not participate either.
Likewise, I really don't think NASL understands what the problem truly is.
This is the kind of negotiations that you don't go through 3rd and 4th parties. NASL didn't even know who they were talking to, and how could the teams then know what NASL was saying, since they barred contact and let someone else do the talking for them?
Get together, in a room, and talk this out. I really don't think this is a wise decision for either the players nor NASL, so it would be in both of their best interest to participate. But communication seems to have been terrible. The problem is: nobody directly involved in this situation is actually talking to me. I have repeatedly contacted those in Korea that I know and nobody: a) knows who is directly behind Koreans withdrawing, b) responds to me with anything specific. I have to rely on 3rd party information continuously because nobody actually bothers to contact me. Every Korean team has my contact info, and they can easily email, skype, or MSN msg me at any time, but they don't. I hear things through other people, and some of it turns out to be mis information, and some of it is accurate. Either way, I'm just going to stay silent on the issue until I hear from someone official. This whole situation has gone on MUCH farther than intended. The fact of the matter is: Koreans didn't want to play NASL anymore, and they withdrew, and now we're going to replace them and continue with the Season. They told me very last minute, so it had to delay the season. That's all. This is becoming way too dramatic You are seriously surprised? NASL decides to make an entire post on TL with "no transparency" yet the vibe from that is that the koreans are in the wrong and you didn`t think it would go much further with the drama? Give me a break, that post from NASL was just asking for drama.
Something tells me he was attempting to contact them well before the post on TL came.... The fact that it took 10 days to get a response from the Korean teams and then another 5, that had to come through Mr. Chae even, should tell you that.
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It might be a benefit to NASL to send a representative to Korea to meet with teams/players face to face.
The NASL representative sent would have to be a decision maker within the organization, and a translator should accompany them. Not just wing it and find a translator when they arrive overseas. It would really help to elevate NASL's image.
I'm sure NASL realizes that the Korean withdrawals will impact their revenue.
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There's to many things changing with these series of events that I just don't know what to believe anymore.
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It would be really great if someone did some actual investigation of this issue and did an all encompassing article.
Right now, all we are doing is rehashing press releases from different organizations and no one really has the whole story.
I would hope someone with good relationships and contacts in the SC2 world would put on a journalism hat and start making some good articles on these issues.
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On August 15 2011 01:29 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:23 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:15 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:08 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean Did you even follow the discussion? Read the offer from NASL in season 2 again. did you read it ? NASL offer to give $1000 for transport & accommodation and to give $1000 prize even if you lose 1st round so the money team need to forked out up front are : $500 deposit + ~$500-600 for transport & accommodation (after substracting the $1000 that NASL gave) so that $1100 up front then 60 days later they will get their $500 deposit back and the $1000 prize so after 5 months they will get $400 at worst case scenario yeah, not for everybody A guaranteed $400 is not enough? If they can't find someone who can lend them 1000$ for a few months then these teams have a bad managment. a guaranteed $400 over 5 months period ? thats even less than 3rd word country minimum wage (my home country for example where the minimum wage is $100 per month) Team would prefer to focus their player effort elsewhere, heck even the code A give $180 if you lost in the first round. 5 months losing in code A first round already netted you $900, more than twice what NASL give its all about priority since player cant do everything at once, and NASL looks to have dropped to the bottom of the list for Korean team, money wise A lot of the players in korean teams earn nothing in prize money over a period of 5 months, and 1 game a week late at night won't really occupy them full time. I fully understand that some of the top players don't want to bother with NASL, but for most korean pro-players this is a golden opportunity. They play the game every day anyway. It just doesn't make sense.
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This is ridiculuous. The level is apparently low.
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Xeris I hope you get this figured out, it all seems like a big fucking pain. I'm rooting for you, keep doing what you do.
Also, I hope you don't let Korean teams that pulled their players participate in the open tournament. I'd of course love to see those players but if they can't respect you enough to do this properly I don't think they deserve your money.
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On August 15 2011 01:27 Veldril wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:10 Kieofire wrote:On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean What and everyone else in the tourney has to pay for their own trip? That is unfair to the players from Europe who have to take flights to the States with their own money, and the Korean players get paid to come over to the States like you want. Everyone else is paid $1000 as traveling stipend too. The problem is $1000 is not enough to cover a round trip flight + hotel, unless you book extremely early. For teams lacking sponsors in Korea, it is too high of a risk to take. For teams from Europe, they mostly have sponsors helping them cover the travel cost (from what I understand). So for Koreans, it looks like they have to pay out of their prize, while for Europeans, it looks like they receive the prize in full.
American and European dont seems to understand that its more expensive to travel from Asia to Europe/NA compared to travels between Europe-NA
you need to book weeks and even months in advance to get a good price, unless you take those flight that stop over somewhere in the Middle East for hours which can turn 12 hours flight into 20+ hours
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Sigh, I think that the foreigner teams should form their own committee, as well as a tournament committee for big official tournaments such as the NASL and the IPL, leading to stuff that actually makes sense. BUT NO KESPA 2.0!!!
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On August 15 2011 01:24 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:14 whateverpeeps wrote: You know what, I really think at this point the teams involved and NASL need to sit down and talk.
I really wouldn't be surprised if certain team managers, or sc2con, have been pressuring and lying to the other teams to get them to not participate either.
Likewise, I really don't think NASL understands what the problem truly is.
This is the kind of negotiations that you don't go through 3rd and 4th parties. NASL didn't even know who they were talking to, and how could the teams then know what NASL was saying, since they barred contact and let someone else do the talking for them?
Get together, in a room, and talk this out. I really don't think this is a wise decision for either the players nor NASL, so it would be in both of their best interest to participate. But communication seems to have been terrible. The problem is: nobody directly involved in this situation is actually talking to me. I have repeatedly contacted those in Korea that I know and nobody: a) knows who is directly behind Koreans withdrawing, b) responds to me with anything specific. I have to rely on 3rd party information continuously because nobody actually bothers to contact me. Every Korean team has my contact info, and they can easily email, skype, or MSN msg me at any time, but they don't. I hear things through other people, and some of it turns out to be mis information, and some of it is accurate. Either way, I'm just going to stay silent on the issue until I hear from someone official. This whole situation has gone on MUCH farther than intended. The fact of the matter is: Koreans didn't want to play NASL anymore, and they withdrew, and now we're going to replace them and continue with the Season. They told me very last minute, so it had to delay the season. That's all. This is becoming way too dramatic
Well that's what I'm saying. I'm not having a go at NASL, but I do think that for you, for the teams, for your future interaction with those teams if not in season 2, you guys need to clear this up.
Like I said, I truly believe there is a degree of pressuring involved and perhaps even lying and misinformation spread about your league to make you look bad in Korea. Some people did admit to being pressured into not participating. And after what I've heard from how at least some people act in SC2Con, that would be best-case scenario.
I really think it's important for you or whoever is in charge to get to the bottom of who's involved and talk to those people. (the fact that you can't even find who's involved is very telling, and sadly unfortunate, but nevertheless an obstacle that needs to be overcome).
Needless to say, someone has been really screwing with everyone...with the Korean players and their managers, with you...and it needs to be resolved, because right now, nobody is getting anything positive out of this.
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This story has more plot twists then a afternoon soap opera.
I don't even know what the hell to belive anymore
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On August 15 2011 01:29 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:23 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:15 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:08 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean Did you even follow the discussion? Read the offer from NASL in season 2 again. did you read it ? NASL offer to give $1000 for transport & accommodation and to give $1000 prize even if you lose 1st round so the money team need to forked out up front are : $500 deposit + ~$500-600 for transport & accommodation (after substracting the $1000 that NASL gave) so that $1100 up front then 60 days later they will get their $500 deposit back and the $1000 prize so after 5 months they will get $400 at worst case scenario yeah, not for everybody A guaranteed $400 is not enough? If they can't find someone who can lend them 1000$ for a few months then these teams have a bad managment. a guaranteed $400 over 5 months period ? thats even less than 3rd word country minimum wage (my home country for example where the minimum wage is $100 per month) Team would prefer to focus their player effort elsewhere, heck even the code A give $180 if you lost in the first round. 5 months losing in code A first round already netted you $900, more than twice what NASL give its all about priority since player cant do everything at once, and NASL looks to have dropped to the bottom of the list for Korean team, money wise
Code A = you play for $180 if you are planning on losing immediately. But that lasts an entire month. Look at NASL. You play 1 game a week (an hour a week) where you can get practice playing meaningful matches, you get practice playing foreigners, and you increase your fan base. You pretty much lose nothing by doing this. The actual live event is one weekend, and this is where you get your $400. But even more than that, you will attract sponsors, you will attract a shit ton of fans, and the competition is arguable worse than the GSL. So your chances of winning a shit ton of money is actually high.
It really is a no brainer.
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sc2con is so ridiculous. Its an organisation of player coaches and managers that are supposed representatives of the interests of teams and players. However no teams or players are obligated to listen to sc2con decisions. Which is bullshit. Because a player not listening to a a decision would be the same as not listening to your manager or coach. Its even made more retarded when teams band together to collectively bargain for more travel money but not under the banner of sc2con but through mr chae as a mediator. And then all koreans withdraw and they try to pass it off as individuals, teams or players that didnt want to participate in nasl. Of which there still isnt a statement by any team as to why they withdrew.
So who the fuck has NASL been dealing with and why cant they just get a straight line of communication with the teams. Only slayers seemed to be upfront about not playing in season 2 and thats probably because slayers_jessica is doing her job as a manager and actually communicating with NASL. And guess what! They arent part of sc2con!!
Now after the fxo story of choya being harassed by someone related to sc2con but not a representative of sc2con(wtf?) and that person not being willing to negotiate directly with fxoboss (who is the owner of fou/fxo) I can see that everything is just a huge clusterfuck in korea. The whole scene needs to get more organised and professional instead of backing out of contracts and poor attempts of negotiation.
You would think that puma would be the wakeup slap they needed to professionalise the scene but they havent learnt anything! Rather sc2con kicked out TSL(unrelated to puma), then said they were wrong/sorry and had the supposed leader step down. And then said it was up to the teams to discipline their players leaving fd and tester unpunished for lying to sc2con and their current manager out of his sc2con position. Wtf.
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Also I want to make a plea to TL people to maybe start investigating this too, if not already being done.
I see TL as almost like ESPN...a journalistic source of information.
There is something messy going on here, nothing makes sense, and it should come to light. At the very least, you can get to the bottom of who called the decisions, so that NASL can talk to those people.
Like I said, this is bad for everyone. The Koreans aren't benefiting, and neither is NASL. It doesn't make sense to do this, so to allow it to keep happening is a shame.
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On August 15 2011 01:36 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:27 Veldril wrote:On August 15 2011 01:10 Kieofire wrote:On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean What and everyone else in the tourney has to pay for their own trip? That is unfair to the players from Europe who have to take flights to the States with their own money, and the Korean players get paid to come over to the States like you want. Everyone else is paid $1000 as traveling stipend too. The problem is $1000 is not enough to cover a round trip flight + hotel, unless you book extremely early. For teams lacking sponsors in Korea, it is too high of a risk to take. For teams from Europe, they mostly have sponsors helping them cover the travel cost (from what I understand). So for Koreans, it looks like they have to pay out of their prize, while for Europeans, it looks like they receive the prize in full. American and European dont seems to understand that its more expensive to travel from Asia to Europe/NA compared to travels between Europe-NA you need to book weeks and even months in advance to get a good price, unless you take those flight that stop over somewhere in the Middle East for hours which can turn 12 hours flight into 20+ hours
Why do people believe it's about travel expenses?? What about the players that have sponsors like SK, Col and FXO? they dont have to pay anything and still wont play in it. There must be another reason they wont play
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On August 15 2011 01:34 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:29 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:23 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:15 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:08 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean Did you even follow the discussion? Read the offer from NASL in season 2 again. did you read it ? NASL offer to give $1000 for transport & accommodation and to give $1000 prize even if you lose 1st round so the money team need to forked out up front are : $500 deposit + ~$500-600 for transport & accommodation (after substracting the $1000 that NASL gave) so that $1100 up front then 60 days later they will get their $500 deposit back and the $1000 prize so after 5 months they will get $400 at worst case scenario yeah, not for everybody A guaranteed $400 is not enough? If they can't find someone who can lend them 1000$ for a few months then these teams have a bad managment. a guaranteed $400 over 5 months period ? thats even less than 3rd word country minimum wage (my home country for example where the minimum wage is $100 per month) Team would prefer to focus their player effort elsewhere, heck even the code A give $180 if you lost in the first round. 5 months losing in code A first round already netted you $900, more than twice what NASL give its all about priority since player cant do everything at once, and NASL looks to have dropped to the bottom of the list for Korean team, money wise A lot of the players in korean teams earn nothing in prize money over a period of 5 months, and 1 game a week late at night won't really occupy them full time. I fully understand that some of the top players don't want to bother with NASL, but for most korean pro-players this is a golden opportunity. They play the game every day anyway. It just doesn't make sense.
one non-reschedule-able game at early morning per week, not late night. we're talking about 4-5am here
what if there's a GSL qualifier or code A/S match the next day ? Im sure they would rather forfeit the NASL match which then will caused their deposit money to be reduced for penalty
and like I said before, they all probably just want to do a Puma and just play on the open tournament instead for the same chance and less hassle
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On August 15 2011 01:40 whateverpeeps wrote: Also I want to make a plea to TL people to maybe start investigating this too, if not already being done.
I see TL as almost like ESPN...a journalistic source of information.
There is something messy going on here, nothing makes sense, and it should come to light. At the very least, you can get to the bottom of who called the decisions, so that NASL can talk to those people.
Like I said, this is bad for everyone. The Koreans aren't benefiting, and neither is NASL. It doesn't make sense to do this, so to allow it to keep happening is a shame. Let's all chip in so we can fly Milkis to Korea! He's arguably the most suited journalist.
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If the players had no intention of playing in the actual tournament then why play the online qualifiers?? There were plenty of other players that would have happily played through and won those spots. It's sad to see the state of SC2 like this, everything is being lost in translation. I truly don't think this is NASL's fault and I believe the players who qualified are at fault here, not their teams or SC2Con (though I believe they are being quite shady with some of the things that have been happening as of late). If the players didn't want to compete they shouldn't have entered, doing so has left NASL in a bind and created much confusion and misinformation. If there is anybody that can fix some of this it's SC2Con ironically, they have some power to protect SC2 pros in Korea and I believe that the image of SC2Con and Korean SC2 pros have been taking a beating as of late with all these issues. I'd like to see them stand up and help fix these issues rather than fire back at those who don't understand and just defend themselves. Actions speak louder than words, and SC2Con's lack of action in any of these circumstances is leading me to believe we're going to see KESPA 2.0 very soon and that will destroy all that had been built.
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There's enough fault to go around to everyone it seems.
The people who are losing out in the end are the players and the fans.
Sucks.
I hope this can be figured out.
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On August 15 2011 01:40 ThaTiger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:36 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:27 Veldril wrote:On August 15 2011 01:10 Kieofire wrote:On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean What and everyone else in the tourney has to pay for their own trip? That is unfair to the players from Europe who have to take flights to the States with their own money, and the Korean players get paid to come over to the States like you want. Everyone else is paid $1000 as traveling stipend too. The problem is $1000 is not enough to cover a round trip flight + hotel, unless you book extremely early. For teams lacking sponsors in Korea, it is too high of a risk to take. For teams from Europe, they mostly have sponsors helping them cover the travel cost (from what I understand). So for Koreans, it looks like they have to pay out of their prize, while for Europeans, it looks like they receive the prize in full. American and European dont seems to understand that its more expensive to travel from Asia to Europe/NA compared to travels between Europe-NA you need to book weeks and even months in advance to get a good price, unless you take those flight that stop over somewhere in the Middle East for hours which can turn 12 hours flight into 20+ hours Why do people believe it's about travel expenses?? What about the players that have sponsors like SK, Col and FXO? they dont have to pay anything and still wont play in it. There must be another reason they wont play
I agree that there's other reasons too but I would say travel expenses is one of the major factor for most teams, which don't have sponsors.
And I also agree with the post above me, it seems Korean want to try their hands on the Open Tournament instead, because it is less of a long commitment, and they still get the chance to play in the grand final.
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Why doesn't NASL just pay setup hotel reservations for the players themselves. Could prolly get a bulk discount. And also pay the travel expenses in full, It makes no sense to me.
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On August 15 2011 01:41 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:34 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:29 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:23 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:15 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:08 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean Did you even follow the discussion? Read the offer from NASL in season 2 again. did you read it ? NASL offer to give $1000 for transport & accommodation and to give $1000 prize even if you lose 1st round so the money team need to forked out up front are : $500 deposit + ~$500-600 for transport & accommodation (after substracting the $1000 that NASL gave) so that $1100 up front then 60 days later they will get their $500 deposit back and the $1000 prize so after 5 months they will get $400 at worst case scenario yeah, not for everybody A guaranteed $400 is not enough? If they can't find someone who can lend them 1000$ for a few months then these teams have a bad managment. a guaranteed $400 over 5 months period ? thats even less than 3rd word country minimum wage (my home country for example where the minimum wage is $100 per month) Team would prefer to focus their player effort elsewhere, heck even the code A give $180 if you lost in the first round. 5 months losing in code A first round already netted you $900, more than twice what NASL give its all about priority since player cant do everything at once, and NASL looks to have dropped to the bottom of the list for Korean team, money wise A lot of the players in korean teams earn nothing in prize money over a period of 5 months, and 1 game a week late at night won't really occupy them full time. I fully understand that some of the top players don't want to bother with NASL, but for most korean pro-players this is a golden opportunity. They play the game every day anyway. It just doesn't make sense. one non-reschedule-able game at early morning per week, not late night. we're talking about 4-5am here what if there's a GSL qualifier or code A/S match the next day ? Im sure they would rather forfeit the NASL match which then will caused their deposit money to be reduced for penalty and like I said before, they all probably just want to do a Puma and just play on the open tournament instead for the same chance and less hassle They changed it to 2 am in the morning for season 2 as far as I know, still ridiculous I admit but not impossible. And I am pretty sure NASL allows for rescheduling if there is an actual scheduling conflict with GSL, they did so for Nada iirc.
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On August 15 2011 01:03 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:01 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2011 00:54 me_viet wrote:On August 15 2011 00:35 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2011 00:31 Imres wrote:On August 15 2011 00:31 Kurr wrote:On August 15 2011 00:28 fabiano wrote:On August 15 2011 00:24 Kurr wrote: SC2Con and the Korean scene are incomprehensible. Just ignore them. Stop supporting them in any way (including watching Korean tournaments) until they get their act together.
They are terrible for SC2 and they bring drama after drama, then try to wiggle their way out of it. It's been non-stop with them for weeks now. Stop watching their teams/players and they will get the message.
Let them do what they want and SC2 will be much worse off in the end. Were not for the koreans you wouldnt even be playing SC2. Get your shit together and don't say bullshit. I bought SC2 because it's a blizzard RTS and I've loved all of them in the past (especially custom games). I've played like 10 games in the past year (all 4v4s) and overall I just like watching SC2 more than playing. That has nothing do with this however. This constant drama is what's bullshit. I'll support the foreign scene instead. There is a bit of drama here and there but nothing on this level and never so often. You're serious? The NASL is korean ? Hmm,what? When did I ever say that? Please quote me. SC2Con is what I'm avoiding IE GSL because that's where all the korean teams are. NASL is void of korean teams now. *EDIT : And the Koreans in NASL have nothing to do with SC2Con hence not a problem. lol you realise sc2con ALSO has nothing to do with GSL. Sc2Con has no power over GSL or any power over what league a player joins. GSL = NASL essentially, neither of them are putting a ban Foreigners/Koreans respectively. If you don't watch gsl, you also not supporting players like Thorzain/Naniwa/Huk for flying over there. ATM the korean/foreigner scene are intertwining. You see some korean players in nearly every tournament these days and Jinro/huk and now thorzain/naniwa are repping the foreigners in GSL. You boycotting sc2 is not going to do anything...but HURT ESPORTS EVEN MORE~!!! (sorry couldn't resist =P ) But honestly, boycotting is probably the worse thing that you can do. Honestly, if you didn't click on these drama threads, you wouldn't notice any difference in the GSL or w/e. You're free to watch them if you want. I know GSL isn't SC2Con but it's the closest thing I can avoid since all their players are there. I know it won't mean much but if plenty of people boycott them, they will understand that people don't want their bullshit drama, just good games. You don't make sense. GOMTV has nothing to do with this whole mess. Your behavior does not compute.
you're free to have a relationship if you want. i know the ever-benevolent, amazing, and entertaining Martha, is not like every other girl ive dated, but she's the closest in likeness (and whom i can avoid) since she's a member of the opposite sex.
i know it won't mean much but if plenty of people boycott women, they will understand that people dont want their bullshit drama--- just good times
not everyone is responsible with what has happened, or with how you feel but GSL in particular is an individual league. you could at least support the player you cheer for by watching their games
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On August 15 2011 01:39 mprs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:29 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:23 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:15 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:08 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean Did you even follow the discussion? Read the offer from NASL in season 2 again. did you read it ? NASL offer to give $1000 for transport & accommodation and to give $1000 prize even if you lose 1st round so the money team need to forked out up front are : $500 deposit + ~$500-600 for transport & accommodation (after substracting the $1000 that NASL gave) so that $1100 up front then 60 days later they will get their $500 deposit back and the $1000 prize so after 5 months they will get $400 at worst case scenario yeah, not for everybody A guaranteed $400 is not enough? If they can't find someone who can lend them 1000$ for a few months then these teams have a bad managment. a guaranteed $400 over 5 months period ? thats even less than 3rd word country minimum wage (my home country for example where the minimum wage is $100 per month) Team would prefer to focus their player effort elsewhere, heck even the code A give $180 if you lost in the first round. 5 months losing in code A first round already netted you $900, more than twice what NASL give its all about priority since player cant do everything at once, and NASL looks to have dropped to the bottom of the list for Korean team, money wise Code A = you play for $180 if you are planning on losing immediately. But that lasts an entire month. Look at NASL. You play 1 game a week (an hour a week) where you can get practice playing meaningful matches, you get practice playing foreigners, and you increase your fan base. You pretty much lose nothing by doing this. The actual live event is one weekend, and this is where you get your $400. But even more than that, you will attract sponsors, you will attract a shit ton of fans, and the competition is arguable worse than the GSL. So your chances of winning a shit ton of money is actually high. It really is a no brainer.
have you seen the NASL season 2 rooster before the Korean left ? the only way its arguably worst than GSL is that Nestea isnt there, otherwise its as stacked as code S
and playing in latency is not a good practice condition since it will screw your timing when you play on normal LAN (GSL)
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This is my last post before I leave but I want to say.
It's VERY VERY fishy that the person who INSTIGATED this mess, is unwilling to reveal themselves, EVEN TO NASL.
Koreans, get a wake up call. Whoever you are listening to doesn't seem to be interested in negotiating in your favor...or negotiating at all. I don't know what it's like in Korea, but I would be very suspicious of trusting a person/people who are unwilling to risk face.
TALK TO NASL DIRECTLY.
NASL, I don't know what to tell you except keep digging.
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The thing is, there's no real story. These are facts
* Contracts were signed July 26th that Koreans agreed to play in NASL.
* August 4th, Mr.Chae says "Koreans have some demands"
* August 5th I answer their demands with our offer
* August 7th to reinforce, I have that offer letter translated into Korean and sent
* August 8th Koreans show up to play Day 1 of NASL
* August 9th Mr Chae says "Koreans are leaving NASL"
This entire thing has now been so blown out of proportion that people are forgetting what actually happened. It seems to me now that there were a lot of underlying problems aside from the 3 concerns originally presented to me. That's FINE, but it doesn't change the fact that the Koreans left the league in a very untimely manner.
But really, this situation shouldn't be any more than this... but it's turning into something huge for some reason.
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On August 15 2011 01:45 Molkovien wrote: Why doesn't NASL just pay setup hotel reservations for the players themselves. Could prolly get a bulk discount. And also pay the travel expenses in full, It makes no sense to me.
IIRC they did this for season 1 and changed it for season 2 to the $1000+$1000 scheme
which is one of the reason the Korean arent coming (among others undisclosed ones)
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On August 15 2011 01:25 taLbuk wrote: Both sides are clearly confused they quote NASL from two different replies and claim it is the same? NASL though it was S2con but it wasn't but it is the same teams that are part of s2con but not using s2con as the official channel of width drawl? Why not?
No they didn't quote from two different replies.
No they are not the same teams that are part of s2con.
There doesn't seem to be anything wrong in korean teams, some in s2con some not, not using s2con as the official channel.
The playxp article also has NOTHING to do with the original fact the koreans left the tournament after it started and contracts were signed anyways, they try diverge to the fact that NASL was calling "them" (the teams involved) s2con instead of individual teams not acting through s2con, and they try to act like its a huge deal and nasl is plotting against s2con?
First of all, PlayXP article is not about Korean team's withdrawal from NASL so yeah it has nothing to do with it. Second, it does matter that NASL mistakenly used S2CON's name. For someone who is very much concerned about contracts, you don't seem to mind libel all that much. Third, neither S2CON's statement nor PlayXP article accuse NASL of having any malicious intent.
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What the hell is this SC2Con organization anyway? It's like a players/teams union or something? What powers does it have?
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This is very very strange to be honest. I don't get why the NASL staff would have made such a statement if it was baseless, give a justification for korean teams to leave ? Telling the truth would have been more or less the same ... And they would certainly not have continued further after a first lie proven wrong ... I also don't get why players like sC who played a full tournament to be in the next season would have changed their minds, furthermore after the finals which went pretty well for the koreans.
We'll probably never know the truth, but I fear that the SC2Con already took the power over the whole SC2 in Korea ...
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After all this, as well as the EG/Puma issue, I would hope the TL community has learned its lesson about bringing out the pitchforks before hearing both sides of the story. Given the obvious communication issues between Korea and the west, I would hope TL mods do something to mitigate the impact of any future threads similar to Milkis's post on the EG/Puma issue and NASL's post on the present issue.
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On August 15 2011 01:41 sandyph wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:34 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:29 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:23 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:15 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:08 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 01:06 sandyph wrote:On August 15 2011 01:03 Maenander wrote:On August 15 2011 00:57 BronzeKnee wrote: So individually all the Koreans decided to pass up on the chance to win huge money? Something isn't right here. Yeah, this doesn't make any sense, the offer from NASL seems to be fair. cant see what's fair about spending $1000+ out of your pocket to attend tournament where you can get knocked after 2 games its not for everybody, and look absolutely not for the Korean Did you even follow the discussion? Read the offer from NASL in season 2 again. did you read it ? NASL offer to give $1000 for transport & accommodation and to give $1000 prize even if you lose 1st round so the money team need to forked out up front are : $500 deposit + ~$500-600 for transport & accommodation (after substracting the $1000 that NASL gave) so that $1100 up front then 60 days later they will get their $500 deposit back and the $1000 prize so after 5 months they will get $400 at worst case scenario yeah, not for everybody A guaranteed $400 is not enough? If they can't find someone who can lend them 1000$ for a few months then these teams have a bad managment. a guaranteed $400 over 5 months period ? thats even less than 3rd word country minimum wage (my home country for example where the minimum wage is $100 per month) Team would prefer to focus their player effort elsewhere, heck even the code A give $180 if you lost in the first round. 5 months losing in code A first round already netted you $900, more than twice what NASL give its all about priority since player cant do everything at once, and NASL looks to have dropped to the bottom of the list for Korean team, money wise A lot of the players in korean teams earn nothing in prize money over a period of 5 months, and 1 game a week late at night won't really occupy them full time. I fully understand that some of the top players don't want to bother with NASL, but for most korean pro-players this is a golden opportunity. They play the game every day anyway. It just doesn't make sense. one non-reschedule-able game at early morning per week, not late night. we're talking about 4-5am here what if there's a GSL qualifier or code A/S match the next day ? Im sure they would rather forfeit the NASL match which then will caused their deposit money to be reduced for penalty and like I said before, they all probably just want to do a Puma and just play on the open tournament instead for the same chance and less hassle
After the debacle, I doubt NASL is going to allow any Koreans from these teams to participate in the open tournament. And while NASL's scheduling is far from ideal, as they've been told such by many, the demands presented to NASL do not appear to include issues with scheduling.
Moreover, it seems that a number of Koreans tried to apply for the league's second season even knowing that the scheduling hasn't changed. If they did so with the intent of then threatening to pull out unless NASL catered to their demands, then that's pretty shitty conduct, imo. NASL made it plain early on that if you can't meet the requirements, then don't apply. Applying and then pulling out messes up the league for everyone else and isn't professional conduct.
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On August 15 2011 01:48 Xeris wrote: The thing is, there's no real story. These are facts
* Contracts were signed July 26th that Koreans agreed to play in NASL.
* August 4th, Mr.Chae says "Koreans have some demands"
* August 5th I answer their demands with our offer
* August 7th to reinforce, I have that offer letter translated into Korean and sent
* August 8th Koreans show up to play Day 1 of NASL
* August 9th Mr Chae says "Koreans are leaving NASL"
This entire thing has now been so blown out of proportion that people are forgetting what actually happened. It seems to me now that there were a lot of underlying problems aside from the 3 concerns originally presented to me. That's FINE, but it doesn't change the fact that the Koreans left the league in a very untimely manner.
But really, this situation shouldn't be any more than this... but it's turning into something huge for some reason.
what's the point of a contract if you can't enforce it?
why didn't you guys just require the security deposit upfront?
seems like they can just get away doing what they feel like. while it might not be quite ethical, hey that's business, and they are going to do it if they can.
looks like you guys had no real leverage. maybe if you had 500 dollars from each of the korean players, then you guys can do some real negotiation.
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In these days, so many accusations turn out to be wrong in the SC2 scene.
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On August 15 2011 01:54 BaLoO- wrote: This is very very strange to be honest. I don't get why the NASL staff would have made such a statement if it was baseless, give a justification for korean teams to leave ? Telling the truth would have been more or less the same ... And they would certainly not have continued further after a first lie proven wrong ... I also don't get why players like sC who played a full tournament to be in the next season would have changed their minds, furthermore after the finals which went pretty well for the koreans.
We'll probably never know the truth, but I fear that the SC2Con already took the power over the whole SC2 in Korea ...
You clearly have not read very much of the various threads here because 1) Xeris wasn't "lying", there was simply a miscommunication issue, and 2) SC2Con wasn't exerting control over the Korean teams. Basically your entire post has already been debunked.
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ESPORTS really are becoming mainstream... New drama every week...
Now if we could at least get the world to know we aren't just a bunch of drama queens...
But seriously, I'm starting to simply let this bullshit on the side, and then read the results, instead of reading misinformation released from a single side at the time....
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On August 15 2011 01:07 SkyTheUnknown wrote: just look at PuMa and how much prizemoney he won with a single tournament. i really can't understand why even a single korean sc2 pro would refuse to participate at nasl without clear reasons like GSL Code S or A. @imres: your idea with the koreans planning to qualify in the open tournament makes sense. well if that's so it's NASLs fault for having a system which does not make it desireable to participate in the pre finals season. maybe they should make some modifications there. just look at poor ret with his awesome pre season performance and then having to play against puma. they have to change the seeding system to make it fair. Well if you look at Puma you can also see the #1 reason the Korean teams don't want to cooperate with the NASL anymore.
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Quick question: Why doesn't NASL deal with the players directly?
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Wait, so have the Korean teams released any kind of statement of their side of why negotiations didn't work out and why $2,000 wasn't enough for travel expenses? This seems to only adress the NASL-SC2Con which NASL already made a correction about.
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why is everyone writing SC2Con in their posts when the name of the organization is called S2Con?
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On August 15 2011 01:56 Doodsmack wrote: After all this, as well as the EG/Puma issue, I would hope the TL community has learned its lesson about bringing out the pitchforks before hearing both sides of the story. Given the obvious communication issues between Korea and the west, I would hope TL mods do something to mitigate the impact of any future threads similar to Milkis's post on the EG/Puma issue and NASL's post on the present issue.
What do you suggest they do then ? You realize TL is a community site right (forum) ? Everyone can post what they want. You suggest mods should check every single new post before allow them to be posted (your posts included and I would love to see your reactions when you know mods block your posts). Is that system really the system that you want, ask yourself that question. Please think before posting, dont just say stuffs like I want ABC without giving real good solutions because those posts are not contributing they are just demanding and we dont want that.
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On August 15 2011 02:00 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:07 SkyTheUnknown wrote: just look at PuMa and how much prizemoney he won with a single tournament. i really can't understand why even a single korean sc2 pro would refuse to participate at nasl without clear reasons like GSL Code S or A. @imres: your idea with the koreans planning to qualify in the open tournament makes sense. well if that's so it's NASLs fault for having a system which does not make it desireable to participate in the pre finals season. maybe they should make some modifications there. just look at poor ret with his awesome pre season performance and then having to play against puma. they have to change the seeding system to make it fair. Well if you look at Puma you can also see the #1 reason the Korean teams don't want to cooperate with the NASL anymore.
yes NASL was completely at fault for EG signing Puma
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SC2Con doesn't need to have 'official communication' with NASL. They just tell the teams how to act, therefore the SC2CON is indeed the reason.. They hide by saying they don't talk to NASL yet they talk to the teams about what they can and can't do.
Wait for the FXO information to come out, when the SC2Con tried to tell them what to do. It's all a mess, starcraft doesn't need these stupid organisations acting as "leaders". Look at any sport, they all just mess it up more: FIFA, UEFA.
ESPORTS doesn't need this drama. TL should ban it from being discussed ¬.¬. Next we'll have starcraft newspapers with pictures of hot_bid sneaking out of a hotel at 2am.
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Regardless of whether it was sc2con enforcing a decision, it was extremely unprofessional for the teams to comport themselves they way they did in regards to the NASL. It is further inappropriate that they try to shift the blame for their collective actions and breach of contract with the NASL when they come under fire for it.
Its unacceptable that all the korean teams all of a sudden don't want to participate AFTER qualifying for the NASL. Its also really strange that the NASL was negotiating terms for bringing koreans to the final... who were they talking to? They weren't talking to each individual team, were they? If they weren't, then how is this any different from a collective decision by SC2con?
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On August 15 2011 02:06 udgnim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:00 Mercury- wrote:On August 15 2011 01:07 SkyTheUnknown wrote: just look at PuMa and how much prizemoney he won with a single tournament. i really can't understand why even a single korean sc2 pro would refuse to participate at nasl without clear reasons like GSL Code S or A. @imres: your idea with the koreans planning to qualify in the open tournament makes sense. well if that's so it's NASLs fault for having a system which does not make it desireable to participate in the pre finals season. maybe they should make some modifications there. just look at poor ret with his awesome pre season performance and then having to play against puma. they have to change the seeding system to make it fair. Well if you look at Puma you can also see the #1 reason the Korean teams don't want to cooperate with the NASL anymore. yes NASL was completely at fault for EG signing Puma Yeah it was just a coincidence InControl was involved a lot with NASL and Puma joined his team.
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On August 15 2011 02:00 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:07 SkyTheUnknown wrote: just look at PuMa and how much prizemoney he won with a single tournament. i really can't understand why even a single korean sc2 pro would refuse to participate at nasl without clear reasons like GSL Code S or A. @imres: your idea with the koreans planning to qualify in the open tournament makes sense. well if that's so it's NASLs fault for having a system which does not make it desireable to participate in the pre finals season. maybe they should make some modifications there. just look at poor ret with his awesome pre season performance and then having to play against puma. they have to change the seeding system to make it fair. Well if you look at Puma you can also see the #1 reason the Korean teams don't want to cooperate with the NASL anymore.
It is legitimate to not want to play in NASL. Not every league/tournament is supposed to be for everyone, and each player/team must make its own choice as to whether to participate. And since NASL is a NA league, it isn't particularly favorable to KR players. I think this was understood even in the very beginning when people were questioning whether KR players would want to participate given NASL's format.
What gets me about the conduct from the Korean teams is that they applied, signed contracts, and then pulled out as the last minute after negotiations failed. Their demands, if Xeris is correct, weren't even delivered until a few days before the tournament began.
This reeks of extortion - ie "now that we've got you by the balls, we're going to demand that you do X Y and Z or risk flunking the entire league." If it's a simple issue of mis-communication, that's one thing, but given the conduct of sc2con (which is supposed to represent the Korean teams) in the last few weeks, it wouldn't surprise me if it was deliberate.
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On August 15 2011 01:59 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:54 BaLoO- wrote: This is very very strange to be honest. I don't get why the NASL staff would have made such a statement if it was baseless, give a justification for korean teams to leave ? Telling the truth would have been more or less the same ... And they would certainly not have continued further after a first lie proven wrong ... I also don't get why players like sC who played a full tournament to be in the next season would have changed their minds, furthermore after the finals which went pretty well for the koreans.
We'll probably never know the truth, but I fear that the SC2Con already took the power over the whole SC2 in Korea ... You clearly have not read very much of the various threads here because 1) Xeris wasn't "lying", there was simply a miscommunication issue, and 2) SC2Con wasn't exerting control over the Korean teams. Basically your entire post has already been debunked.
I didn't say they were lying, and I didn't say SC2Con was exerting control. I said I wouldn't see the point for the NASL staff to tell something wrong (i.e. lie), which is the case if they never had any contact with the MVP team and someone related to sC. Yes it is possible that someone said they were these representatives but weren't, but it is in no way more likely than another explication. Second, i said I feared that the SC2Con could make pressure, I've nothing to argue on it beside some strange facts, so I just gave a possibility which is absolutely not "debunked" by someone who didn't even read what I wrote. And after my post, you can read all other posts pointing others strange things. There is miscommunication, and there is tricky things. Once again, we'll probably never know the truth, but that's kinda worrying.
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5003 Posts
On August 15 2011 02:06 TriZen wrote: SC2Con doesn't need to have 'official communication' with NASL. They just tell the teams how to act, therefore the SC2CON is indeed the reason.. They hide by saying they don't talk to NASL yet they talk to the teams about what they can and can't do.
Wait for the FXO information to come out, when the SC2Con tried to tell them what to do. It's all a mess, starcraft doesn't need these stupid organisations acting as "leaders". Look at any sport, they all just mess it up more: FIFA, UEFA.
ESPORTS doesn't need this drama. TL should ban it from being discussed ¬.¬. Next we'll have starcraft newspapers with pictures of hot_bid sneaking out of a hotel at 2am.
Someone needed to be photobombed. It was justified. Please don't make drama out of that fact
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Not looking good for NASL I guess. Still too early to tell what's happening though in my opinion. I hope things get sorted out... I was very disappointed hearing that the koreans were withdrawing from NASL =/
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All this drama is getting out of hand. Something needs to be done in order to guarantee effective and clear communications between all parties. The longer this goes on, the korean sc2 will be blighted.
Just as more and more folks are turning to sc2 from BW, this drama will have the opposite effect.
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SC2con denies knowledge...
I think we need to hire Mulder and Scully to get to the bottom of this.
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I think we should stop racing to the forum and blaming on S2con and trying to be the good guy with the early advantage. This is so unprofessional.
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sigh NASL really needs to release a neutral statement instead of a biased one blaming people...it's their fault there's been all this drama and miscommunication.
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On August 15 2011 02:05 thanhbao86 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:56 Doodsmack wrote: After all this, as well as the EG/Puma issue, I would hope the TL community has learned its lesson about bringing out the pitchforks before hearing both sides of the story. Given the obvious communication issues between Korea and the west, I would hope TL mods do something to mitigate the impact of any future threads similar to Milkis's post on the EG/Puma issue and NASL's post on the present issue. What do you suggest they do then ? You realize TL is a community site right (forum) ? Everyone can post what they want. You suggest mods should check every single new post before allow them to be posted (your posts included and I would love to see your reactions when you know mods block your posts). Is that system really the system that you want, ask yourself that question. Please think before posting, dont just say stuffs like I want ABC without giving real good solutions because those posts are not contributing they are just demanding and we dont want that.
No actually it would be a pretty simple solution - lock the thread after including a mod edit saying this is only one side of the story and the thread will be reopened once the other side has been added.
Notice how I didn't insult you personally when I wrote that? Take this post as an example for your response.
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On August 15 2011 02:17 BackSideAttack wrote: sigh NASL really needs to release a neutral statement instead of a biased one blaming people...it's their fault there's been all this drama and miscommunication.
"biased one blaming people"
Where is this?
Big mistake NASL did was say that SC2Con was involved because they claim they're not (if you want to believe that, maybe they didn't issue an official decision but it definitely seems like they are working behind the scenes).
However, this is due to the fact that whoever came to the decision to boycott NASL has been REFUSING to come forward and speak openly and directly with the NASL, forcing NASL to speak through intermediaries like Mr.Chae and other people.
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On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 21:53 NHY wrote:"It is nonsense to suggest S2CON is blocking [our] participation. If we wanted to participate, we would do so regardless of whatever S2CON's wishes were." There are rumors that S2CON is blocking korean team's participation in foreign scene. However, it's been confirmed that since their creation in Nov, 2010 S2CON has left the decision of participating in foreign events to each team's discretion and have not interfered in any way in this regard since. Original article in Korean: + Show Spoiler +NASL 주장, 사실무근으로 확인 - NASL, 협의회 인지(認知) 잘못에 대해 사과 - 이형섭-최윤상 감독, NASL측 주장 사실무근 스타크래프트2 협의회(이하 협의회)가 '이번 NASL 시즌2에 한국 선수 참가 철회가 협의회와는 무관하다'는 입장을 발표했다. 협의회는 공식 홈페이지를 통해 참가 철회로 인한 분쟁은 각 게임단 자체적으로 진행된 내용이라 해명했다. 이어서 협의회는 NASL로부터 공식적인 내용을 전달하거나 받은 적도 없다고 밝혔다. 이 소식을 접한 NASL측은 “한국에서 진행되는 일을 정확하게 알지 못한다. 하지만, 우린 한국팀들의 공통된 결정을 들었고 첫 계약서에는 ‘스타크래프트2 한국 팀 협의회(SC2 Korean Team Committee)’라고 작성되어 있었다. 이후 계약 때에도 이렇게 작성되어 협의회라고 적은 것이다. 만약, 소수 팀들의 결정이었으면 스타2협의회(S2CON)에 사과하고 싶다”며 자신들의 실수에 사과하는 뜻을 내비쳤다. 하지만, 그는 “김승철(FXO소속, sC)와 MVP팀의 소속 선수들이 NASL에 참가하려 하는데 ‘S2CON’이 출전을 막고 있어 당황하고 있다”는 입장을 밝히며 ‘S2CON’가 NASL에 피해를 주고 있다고 주장했다.
이에 PlayXP는 김승철이 소속되어 있는 FXO의 이형섭 감독과 MVP의 최윤상 감독에게 확인해 본 결과 사실 무근인 것으로 확인됐다. 이형섭 감독은 “김승철 선수 본인이 출전하지 않기로 해 철회 한 것”이라며 “NASL 출전과 관련해 S2CON과 그 어떤 논쟁을 벌인 적이 없다”고 밝혔다. 최윤상 감독 또한 “처음부터 NASL에 출전할 의사가 없었는데 이런 말을 듣게 되어 황당하다. 형제 팀인 ‘compLexity’로부터 NASL 출전 제안을 받은 것은 사실이나, 팀 사정상 힘들어 정중히 거절했다, 또 이 제안은 한국 팀들의 출전 철회 후 온 것이고 NASL로부터 직접적인 교섭은 없었다”고 밝혔다. ‘S2CON’의 참가 저지에 대한 질문에는 “만약, 우리가 출전하고 싶었다면 협의회 의사와는 무관하게 출전할 수 있는데 출전을 저지한다니 웃기는 소리다”며 NASL측의 주장을 반박하기도 했다. 한편, 일각에선 ‘S2CON’이 국내 팀의 해외 진출을 막고 있는 것이란 설이 일고 있지만, S2CON은 지난 해 11월 발족 당시부터 해외 대회 출전 여부는 팀 자율에 맡겼으며 그에 따른 부분에 대해 관여한 바가 전혀 없는 것으로 확인 됐다. 글: 안영훈(ethan@playxp.com) So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL? I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THIS This actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O
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On August 15 2011 02:16 Erik.TheRed wrote: SC2con denies knowledge...
I think we need to hire Mulder and Scully to get to the bottom of this.
haha, i laughed, mainly because i just watched 7 x-files episodes in a row. x-files marathons ftw!!!!
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Yo Koreans, if you don't want to play in our leagues that's fine. But don't expect us to play in yours (GSL) either, hokay?
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On August 15 2011 02:09 BaLoO- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 01:59 Doodsmack wrote:On August 15 2011 01:54 BaLoO- wrote: This is very very strange to be honest. I don't get why the NASL staff would have made such a statement if it was baseless, give a justification for korean teams to leave ? Telling the truth would have been more or less the same ... And they would certainly not have continued further after a first lie proven wrong ... I also don't get why players like sC who played a full tournament to be in the next season would have changed their minds, furthermore after the finals which went pretty well for the koreans.
We'll probably never know the truth, but I fear that the SC2Con already took the power over the whole SC2 in Korea ... You clearly have not read very much of the various threads here because 1) Xeris wasn't "lying", there was simply a miscommunication issue, and 2) SC2Con wasn't exerting control over the Korean teams. Basically your entire post has already been debunked. I didn't say they were lying, and I didn't say SC2Con was exerting control. I said I wouldn't see the point for the NASL staff to tell something wrong (i.e. lie), which is the case if they never had any contact with the MVP team and someone related to sC. Yes it is possible that someone said they were these representatives but weren't, but it is in no way more likely than another explication. Second, i said I feared that the SC2Con could make pressure, I've nothing to argue on it beside some strange facts, so I just gave a possibility which is absolutely not "debunked" by someone who didn't even read what I wrote. And after my post, you can read all other posts pointing others strange things. There is miscommunication, and there is tricky things. Once again, we'll probably never know the truth, but that's kinda worrying.
"I didn't say they were lying"
On August 15 2011 01:54 BaLoO- wrote: ... And they would certainly not have continued further after a first lie proven wrong ...
"I didn't say SC2Con was exerting control"
On August 15 2011 01:54 BaLoO- wrote: I fear that the SC2Con already took the power over the whole SC2 in Korea ...
lol?
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This is more confusing than the Xenosaga storyline.
I will be glad to see what top players NASL manages to retain.
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On August 15 2011 02:23 Doso wrote: Yo Koreans, if you don't want to play in our leagues that's fine. But don't expect us to play in yours (GSL) either, hokay?
... Why being so dumb ?
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In the recent weeks different "dramas" I've personally sided pretty much all the time with the "korean" standpoint. I must say tho, that signing contracts and not fulfilling them and leaving when the season has started, is a pretty shitty way to go about things.. Also it really seems like there are huge holes in the communication. Either that, or someone is lying. I kinda liked NASL and wish them good luck whatever the outcome may be.
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GSL and NASL are actually direct competitions, they both want your money, and sponsorship money. NASL in all aspects can out compete GSL except for the korean players. The only way for GSL to stay on top of NASL is to not let their korean players play in NASL.
NASL>GSL>SC2CON>NASL>GSL....
As of right now GSL and SC2Con are working together hence:
GSL= SC2CON> NASL
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On August 15 2011 02:23 Doso wrote: Yo Koreans, if you don't want to play in our leagues that's fine. But don't expect us to play in yours (GSL) either, hokay?
That almost makes it sound like we'd MAKE it more than a round...
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On August 15 2011 02:20 thebearot wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THISThis actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O
This is exactly why the Korean teams' story doesn't hold up. If all members of the sc2con act in unison, its silly to say that sc2con isn't responsible. The guys running sc2con are the very people that run the teams themselves.
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On August 15 2011 02:12 Milkis wrote:Someone needed to be photobombed. It was justified. Please don't make drama out of that fact 
Lmao XD Oh well, I think all this 'drama' will have calmed down in a year. Games growing stupidly fast and with it will obviously be a period of well, this.
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I'm so confused as to what the hell is going on in the korean scene as of late
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*cue circus theme* + Show Spoiler +
This whole situation is a shame considering how strong the relationship between the Korean and foreign e-sports scenes has been thus far since Starcraft 2.
I think it's even more of a shame that this has all played out on the forums as it has. Or perhaps, TeamLiquid IS serious business. *shrug*?
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On August 15 2011 02:29 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:20 thebearot wrote:On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THISThis actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O This is exactly why the Korean teams' story doesn't hold up. If all members of the sc2con act in unison, its silly to say that sc2con isn't responsible. The guys running sc2con are the very people that run the teams themselves.
Not only that, but NASL's statements point out that the teams didn't individually contact them. It's a little bit amusing to think that people would believe several teams all independently arrived at the same conclusion, decided independently to break contracts after signing them, and then decided independently to act through Mr. Chae. Give me a break.
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Damn, lots of miscommunication going on lately... but I guess its good they are working to resolve it. Hopefully in the future the communication will be better. :S
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On August 15 2011 02:32 Solinos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:29 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:20 thebearot wrote:On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THISThis actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O This is exactly why the Korean teams' story doesn't hold up. If all members of the sc2con act in unison, its silly to say that sc2con isn't responsible. The guys running sc2con are the very people that run the teams themselves. Not only that, but NASL's statements point out that the teams didn't individually contact them. It's a little bit amusing to think that people would believe several teams all independently arrived at the same conclusion, decided independently to break contracts after signing them, and then decided independently to act through Mr. Chae. Give me a break.
It's a part of sc2con statuts... Maybe if you've belonged to a collective organization you'd know that.
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dunno what to say but nasl with such actions nasl is killing itself. first the finals were not that what they should have been (regarding to the hype of the league), then the koreans dont participate in the new season and on top pf that they blame sc2con based on a thought that it must be sc2con. dunno if they can maintain their viewers with such things
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Thank you for the translation. It frustrates me that there's no English translation/version of PlayXP. I think it would ease the amount of misunderstandings (such as this), since almost all korean Starcraft news is posted on PlayXP
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On August 15 2011 02:20 Doodsmack wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:05 thanhbao86 wrote:On August 15 2011 01:56 Doodsmack wrote: After all this, as well as the EG/Puma issue, I would hope the TL community has learned its lesson about bringing out the pitchforks before hearing both sides of the story. Given the obvious communication issues between Korea and the west, I would hope TL mods do something to mitigate the impact of any future threads similar to Milkis's post on the EG/Puma issue and NASL's post on the present issue. What do you suggest they do then ? You realize TL is a community site right (forum) ? Everyone can post what they want. You suggest mods should check every single new post before allow them to be posted (your posts included and I would love to see your reactions when you know mods block your posts). Is that system really the system that you want, ask yourself that question. Please think before posting, dont just say stuffs like I want ABC without giving real good solutions because those posts are not contributing they are just demanding and we dont want that. No actually it would be a pretty simple solution - lock the thread after including a mod edit saying this is only one side of the story and the thread will be reopened once the other side has been added. Notice how I didn't insult you personally when I wrote that? Take this post as an example for your response.
So then people cant post but still can read and have their own opinions? How is that different from what we have now? You will have both stories when each party releases it (Just different threads, but they are still the first post so it is easy to find). If you care you will read them both. I dont see any problem to realize it is only one sided story in the post. Basically, It is not TL that is the problem its people thinking is the problem. TL is not a judge, it is just a community site. It is not even a news site. It is not its job to clear the confusion, that job belongs to the parties involved. It is your job to wait for the whole story before jumping on the bandwagon and conclude. If you are confused, dont post and dont involve in it since you dont know. A real solution is that people need to mature the hell up and stop posting the first thing in their mind. PERIOD. TL has been and is still a discussion site, blocking discussion is not a TL thing to do. I am sorry if you think i insulted you, but your first post has no real solution beside saying tl mods have to do sth, so I stay corrected.
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From what I have heard, NASL more then reasonably tried to accommodate the players. I think the koreans wanted a free ride; tickets to US, hotel and expenses in addition to minimium prize earnings. Hardly fair if you ask me. I would like to hear more about the korean complaints, but so far they seem rather petty. They don't want to take a risk competing in a tournament... And then they all, collectively, but individually, decided to withdraw at the same time for the same reasons.
I can definitely understand why NASL understood and reported the situation as they did.
I can understand why money may be tight with korean teams... I don't think any other organization is going to provide any more of a beneficial offer to so many korean players, as NASL has done. There will still be MLG, but 4 players participating in one tournament is not what I would consider "korean and foreigner competition". Its not what most of us want for international esports. This is extremely disappointing and convoluted.
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On August 15 2011 02:32 Solinos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:29 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:20 thebearot wrote:On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THISThis actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O This is exactly why the Korean teams' story doesn't hold up. If all members of the sc2con act in unison, its silly to say that sc2con isn't responsible. The guys running sc2con are the very people that run the teams themselves. Not only that, but NASL's statements point out that the teams didn't individually contact them. It's a little bit amusing to think that people would believe several teams all independently arrived at the same conclusion, decided independently to break contracts after signing them, and then decided independently to act through Mr. Chae. Give me a break.
It seems natural that those teams would have spoken to each other before deciding what to do, and acted together afterwards. Where do you get such a strange ideas?
Edit: I'm repeating myself again:
...If all members of the sc2con act in unison...
NO NO NO NO
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Imres: that's exactly the point. If its collective action on part of the teams, as part of a collective organization, then it is ridiculous for anyone to claim to act independently. They're all independent together and saying its sc2con or not is playing semantics, as it doesn't change what they did. The fact and the manner by which they're trying to shift the blame and not acknowledge responsibility for withdrawing from a tournament they qualified for and participated in at the final hour is simply not acceptable.
We're missing a piece of the puzzle because they're not being transparent about who did what and why.
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Why can't we all just speak the same language T.T
It would make all of these Korean-Foreigner issues so much easier to understand and resolve!
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On August 15 2011 02:42 NHY wrote: It seems natural that those teams would have spoken to each other before deciding what to do, and acted together afterwards. Where do you get such a strange ideas?
You don't find it strange that all of the sc2con teams would get together to make a collective decision and then say it wasn't an sc2con decision? Its just ridiculous semantics at this point. They're trying to distract from the fact that they agreed to participate and then withdrew at the final hour.
It doesn't matter if its sc2con or the teams acting individually-but-really-together. It doesn't change the final result.
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On August 15 2011 02:42 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:32 Solinos wrote:On August 15 2011 02:29 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:20 thebearot wrote:On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THISThis actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O This is exactly why the Korean teams' story doesn't hold up. If all members of the sc2con act in unison, its silly to say that sc2con isn't responsible. The guys running sc2con are the very people that run the teams themselves. Not only that, but NASL's statements point out that the teams didn't individually contact them. It's a little bit amusing to think that people would believe several teams all independently arrived at the same conclusion, decided independently to break contracts after signing them, and then decided independently to act through Mr. Chae. Give me a break. It seems natural that those teams would have spoken to each other before deciding what to do, and acted together afterwards. Where do you get such a strange ideas?
His point is that they're acting in concert, using collective bargaining as a means to coerce NASL into accepting certain demands.
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On August 15 2011 02:42 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:32 Solinos wrote:On August 15 2011 02:29 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:20 thebearot wrote:On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THISThis actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O This is exactly why the Korean teams' story doesn't hold up. If all members of the sc2con act in unison, its silly to say that sc2con isn't responsible. The guys running sc2con are the very people that run the teams themselves. Not only that, but NASL's statements point out that the teams didn't individually contact them. It's a little bit amusing to think that people would believe several teams all independently arrived at the same conclusion, decided independently to break contracts after signing them, and then decided independently to act through Mr. Chae. Give me a break. It seems natural that those teams would have spoken to each other before deciding what to do, and acted together afterwards. Where do you get such a strange ideas?
Maybe from the fact sc2con seems so full of shit? Look at the post FXO leaving sc2con, blackmail, lies, threats?
Oh I forgot, they don't have the same values over there, you know the whole "korean way to do business"? Based on respect and all that?
Lol, can't even respect their contract with NASL and threaten their own to adhere to the korean way. I'm looking forward to the downfall of korean SC2, will be amazing.
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On August 15 2011 02:46 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:42 NHY wrote:On August 15 2011 02:32 Solinos wrote:On August 15 2011 02:29 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:20 thebearot wrote:On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THISThis actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O This is exactly why the Korean teams' story doesn't hold up. If all members of the sc2con act in unison, its silly to say that sc2con isn't responsible. The guys running sc2con are the very people that run the teams themselves. Not only that, but NASL's statements point out that the teams didn't individually contact them. It's a little bit amusing to think that people would believe several teams all independently arrived at the same conclusion, decided independently to break contracts after signing them, and then decided independently to act through Mr. Chae. Give me a break. It seems natural that those teams would have spoken to each other before deciding what to do, and acted together afterwards. Where do you get such a strange ideas? His point is that they're acting in concert, using collective bargaining as a means to coerce NASL into accepting certain demands.
That would be one way to look at it.
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On August 15 2011 02:46 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:42 NHY wrote: It seems natural that those teams would have spoken to each other before deciding what to do, and acted together afterwards. Where do you get such a strange ideas? You don't find it strange that all of the sc2con teams would get together to make a collective decision and then say it wasn't an sc2con decision? Its just ridiculous semantics at this point. They're trying to distract from the fact that they agreed to participate and then withdrew at the final hour. It doesn't matter if its sc2con or the teams acting individually-but-really-together. It doesn't change the final result.
Not true
Edit: Do you even know which teams are part of S2CON which aren't?
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On August 15 2011 02:44 Dr.Sin wrote: Imres: that's exactly the point. If its collective action on part of the teams, as part of a collective organization, then it is ridiculous for anyone to claim to act independently. They're all independent together and saying its sc2con or not is playing semantics, as it doesn't change what they did. The fact and the manner by which they're trying to shift the blame and not acknowledge responsibility for withdrawing from a tournament they qualified for and participated in at the final hour is simply not acceptable.
We're missing a piece of the puzzle because they're not being transparent about who did what and why.
Semantics are really important, it's probably the same people, but the NASL PR guy made a gigantic mistake due to this semantic, ruining his posts before he realized his error. They're talking about serious stuff and he names an organization which isn't implied in this stuff apparently (and that show how they deal with the koreans, don't even know to which organization they're talking about)
Without this failure nobody would have blame SC2Con as an organization for that matter (there is still FXOBoSs stuff) and it would seem that NASL staff knows what they're doing which isn't apparently the case. The koreans made the first bad move (the contracts) ,and then NASL PR give them an excuse to strike back, what they did and put them in an uncomfortable position.
I don't say that there position is good, but currently their strategy his legitimated by this failure.
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How is it not true? All the teams "independently" decided to withdraw.
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At this point, even though we don't have all the facts, I think it's safe to say NASL messed up somewhere down the line. Everyone knew from the beginning that the format didn't make any sense, and it was not accommodating to the Korean players. Secondly, the same format allowed one Korean player to bypass all of that hassle and win the entire tournament doing so. Koreans (and Ret, I'm sure) say: "Why did I bust my ass for 10 weeks meeting your asinine schedule yet someone who committed no more than 4 days to this league was able to go home with $50,000?"
Also, it can be apparent from the Koreans' statements that they did not feel respected in their negotiations, and Xeris' postings on TL regarding the NASL, that he is probably not the most qualified person to be running an organization of this scale. The continual aggressive defense against fans who have complaints about the league, and refusal to admit any fault in his league, would seem to indicate someone who cannot properly handle business negotiations.
People are creating all these weird conspiracy theories about some shady characters in Korea who are convincing the Koreans not to return for season 2. The simplest explanation is that they really don't want to. Do you honestly believe if Sundance was in charge of this league, and the Koreans got to play all their games at reasonable times on their own schedule, that they would still decline to play? Of course not. This is all the NASL's mess, and season 3 will have to undergo radical changes if they want to fix it.
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man I have no ideal who to believe this is crazy
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On August 15 2011 02:29 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:20 thebearot wrote:On August 14 2011 23:00 Intricate1 wrote:
So Based on this we are lead to believe that oGs, Startale, WeMadeFox, TSL, and Prime each decided independently, came to the same conclusion and not one thought to pass that decision over to the NASL?
I mean it could be the NASL yeah, but why would they respond like they did, citing the money issues and attacking them like that, in this case in more inclined to believe in the NASL's "truth" to the story
^-- THISThis actually looks like sanctions and/or union strike. And the ones doing this are lying when they say they are acting independently. How can they all agreed upon something like this all together and not only that, intentionally failed to obey the signed contract? It's the same as "Give us more money or we all go on strike" sorta stuff. Bullies?? :O This is exactly why the Korean teams' story doesn't hold up. If all members of the sc2con act in unison, its silly to say that sc2con isn't responsible. The guys running sc2con are the very people that run the teams themselves.
Each team's personal decision could be influenced by other team's as well. Maybe one or two teams did the math, decided that the 3 months of work on a NASL that has made no improvement over previous season is not worth the effort, and then the rest of the teams saw their decision, thought about it for themselves, agrees then withdrew as well.
It is kind of like how at concerts, when you see a few people stand up and clap, you'll eventually see the rest of the audience follow and do the same. Also the same as how riots start. When a few people start rocking cars and breaking windows, more and more people follow suit and eventually it goes out of hand. There is no one collective body that told and made the audience stand up or set up the riot, it is just that other's decisions influence each other.
And this is what S2CON is saying. NASL accused S2CON that the organization itself forced or planned something collectively to prevent the players/team from participating in NASL, and S2CON is just trying to clear up this accusation.
But of course, most of the Korean team's are in good terms with each other. The coaches are friends with each other, and their players often help train with members from another team. It is no surprise that one or two team's decisions can influence others. The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
All in all, regardless of who was right and wrong, it was definitely unprofessional and somewhat childish for NASL to jump the gun and wrote that very biased statement just to present themselves to look like the good guys / victims
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If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it.
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On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable.
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None of this is surprising given the past history of shadiness and prevarication on the part of NASL. A lot of players were pretty dissatisfied with season 1 and the stupidity of their format/scheduling so when that happens you should expect to have to pay a premium to attract the same players to your tournaments when there are so many other great events going on all the time.
Maybe one day people will learn to not trust anything NASL says about anything. Even if they drastically changed/fixed all the problems with their format tomorrow I am not sure it would be enough for players at this point.
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On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
[/b]
Yeah, there probably was no blackmail or threats from sc2con eh? Seems like the cleanest and most legit organisation lately.
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On August 15 2011 02:51 Dr.Sin wrote: If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it.
Again, no not everyone in S2CON made this decision.
NASL mentioned 5 teams are withdrawing. only 3 of them are in S2CON
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On August 15 2011 02:51 Dr.Sin wrote: If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it.
We talk about serious issues not school bullshit, it matters, even if all the members of sc2con took the decision together outside of sc2con.
An organization like that has (probably legal) statuts, and they've to follow this, if it included that sc2con doesn't decide who goes to which tournament, then accusing sc2con of doing this is false. And that's not even the case, some members of sc2con decided to don't participate in NASL. And this bullshit PR from NASL give them an excuse to counter-attack instead of being on the defensive due to this contract issue.
Either you're a troll or never have an experience of collective negociation, because you seem to don't understant how does it work.
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Keep in mind that Xeris earlier said that NO team manager contacted him directly to say anything, which further puts holes in the story that the teams "independently" withdrew.
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On August 15 2011 02:23 Doso wrote: Yo Koreans, if you don't want to play in our leagues that's fine. But don't expect us to play in yours (GSL) either, hokay?
lol....ur so smart
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On August 15 2011 02:54 Imres wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:51 Dr.Sin wrote: If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it. We talk about serious issues not school bullshit, it matters, even if all the members of sc2con took the decision together outside of sc2con. An organization like that has (probably legal) statuts, and they've to follow this, if it included that sc2con doesn't decide who goes to which tournament, then accusing sc2con of doing this is false. And that's not even the case, some members of sc2con decided to don't participate in NASL. And this bullshit PR from NASL give them an excuse to counter-attack instead of being on the defensive due to this contract issue. Either you're a troll or never have an experience of collective negociation, because you seem to don't understant how does it work.
And the only team that wants to pârticipate in NASL that is part of sc2con decided to leave the organisatino following blackmail and threats, simple maths here.
But please feel free to keep the korean penis in your mouth, it must not take a lot of place in any case, see what i did there?
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On August 15 2011 02:54 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:51 Dr.Sin wrote: If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it. Again, no not everyone in S2CON made this decision. NASL mentioned 5 teams are withdrawing. only 3 of them are in S2CON
FXO and TSL quit SC2Con due to problems with them. The only one who pulled out who was not in SC2Con was SlayerS.
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too much drama. its ruining the simplistic beauty of starcraft.
Blizzard designed the game to be fun with 1 click of the "find match" button. not this bureaucratic non-sense.
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On August 15 2011 02:56 esc0bar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:54 Imres wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Dr.Sin wrote: If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it. We talk about serious issues not school bullshit, it matters, even if all the members of sc2con took the decision together outside of sc2con. An organization like that has (probably legal) statuts, and they've to follow this, if it included that sc2con doesn't decide who goes to which tournament, then accusing sc2con of doing this is false. And that's not even the case, some members of sc2con decided to don't participate in NASL. And this bullshit PR from NASL give them an excuse to counter-attack instead of being on the defensive due to this contract issue. Either you're a troll or never have an experience of collective negociation, because you seem to don't understant how does it work. And the only team that wants to pârticipate in NASL that is part of sc2con decided to leave the organisatino following blackmail and threats, simple maths here.
That's an other problem, prove from a legal pov that sc2con took this decision and that NASL told the truth when accusing them. They fucked up but ppl don't recognized it I don't know why. And sc2con is bigger than those team, I don't know how the decisions are taken, but it's not even sure that if the statuts were ok that they could have taken this decision in sc2con.
But stay in your world where unknown facts are here to prove your views.
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This seems pretty obvious that NASL is being punished for the way they tried to snipe Korean players at the events. Naturally there is going to be a bit of ambiguity related to the exact reasons, but all of the coaches are running around telling each other not to let their players play in the NASL. 50,000$ one time winner payout isn't worth wrecking your team
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I think it says a lot that Koreans are willing to pay their own way to MLG for a smaller prizepool and more competition rather than get some of their ride payed for at least by NASL...
Yes, 4 players are given a free ride by MLG, but how many Koreans were at the last MLG? Had to have been at least 8, probably more, and more come every time. This suggests NASL is definitely not free of guilt in this issue. More likely both sides deserve a little fault and there was some bad communication.
As someone said earlier though. NASL coming straight to TL with their release seems to me to be a move designed to get the SC2 community on their side and a plea not to believe the other side. Release your press releases on your own website, TL will get the info in due time. This is a community site not your personal press site.
Edit:
On August 15 2011 02:59 OPL3SA2 wrote: This seems pretty obvious that NASL is being punished for the way they tried to snipe Korean players at the events. Naturally there is going to be a bit of ambiguity related to the exact reasons, but all of the coaches are running around telling each other not to let their players play in the NASL. 50,000$ one time winner payout isn't worth wrecking your team
Wait, what? NASL tried to snipe nobody? NASL has no team, EG is LOOSELY (very very very very much so, and even less so now that Incontrol is gone) tied to NASL. EG tried to get players, not NASL. Korean teams have no reason to punish NASL for that.
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On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable.
It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature.
The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong.
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On August 15 2011 02:59 OPL3SA2 wrote: This seems pretty obvious that NASL is being punished for the way they tried to snipe Korean players at the events. Naturally there is going to be a bit of ambiguity related to the exact reasons, but all of the coaches are running around telling each other not to let their players play in the NASL. 50,000$ one time winner payout isn't worth wrecking your team
NASL didn't try to swipe anyone? If anyone deserves that blame, it's EG. What was NASL supposed to do? Hire people to follow managers around to make sure they're not speaking to any players?
If a team manager chooses to speak to a player directly instead of their manager, it's their fault. If a player chooses to leave a team because of a better offer, it's the player's fault, or the team's fault for not being competitive enough.
Besides, problem easily solved by making players sign contracts saying they're not allowed to quit for a certain period after attending foreign tournaments.
So I highly doubt that's the reason for this mess and if it is, it is wrong and petty and is only harming players over something very stupid.
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On August 15 2011 02:56 esc0bar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:54 Imres wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Dr.Sin wrote: If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it. We talk about serious issues not school bullshit, it matters, even if all the members of sc2con took the decision together outside of sc2con. An organization like that has (probably legal) statuts, and they've to follow this, if it included that sc2con doesn't decide who goes to which tournament, then accusing sc2con of doing this is false. And that's not even the case, some members of sc2con decided to don't participate in NASL. And this bullshit PR from NASL give them an excuse to counter-attack instead of being on the defensive due to this contract issue. Either you're a troll or never have an experience of collective negociation, because you seem to don't understant how does it work. And the only team that wants to pârticipate in NASL that is part of sc2con decided to leave the organisatino following blackmail and threats, simple maths here. But please feel free to keep the korean penis in your mouth, it must not take a lot of place in any case, see what i did there?
Did you even READ FXO's post? It CLEARLY stated that the post had NOTHING to do with this matter, and that them leaving S2CON was due to other reasons. And it also CLEARLY stated that S2CON did not force them about the NASL situation.
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On August 15 2011 02:59 OPL3SA2 wrote: This seems pretty obvious that NASL is being punished for the way they tried to snipe Korean players at the events. Naturally there is going to be a bit of ambiguity related to the exact reasons, but all of the coaches are running around telling each other not to let their players play in the NASL. 50,000$ one time winner payout isn't worth wrecking your team
What? NASL isn't a team, you're thinking of EG, and that's a completely different subject. Something like that could happen at any foreign tournament, not just the NASL...
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Who cares if SC2Con made the decision, the teams made the decision, or the players made the decision?
It's irrelevant, somebody still signed a contract and they didn't play.
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On August 15 2011 02:40 thanhbao86 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:20 Doodsmack wrote:On August 15 2011 02:05 thanhbao86 wrote:On August 15 2011 01:56 Doodsmack wrote: After all this, as well as the EG/Puma issue, I would hope the TL community has learned its lesson about bringing out the pitchforks before hearing both sides of the story. Given the obvious communication issues between Korea and the west, I would hope TL mods do something to mitigate the impact of any future threads similar to Milkis's post on the EG/Puma issue and NASL's post on the present issue. What do you suggest they do then ? You realize TL is a community site right (forum) ? Everyone can post what they want. You suggest mods should check every single new post before allow them to be posted (your posts included and I would love to see your reactions when you know mods block your posts). Is that system really the system that you want, ask yourself that question. Please think before posting, dont just say stuffs like I want ABC without giving real good solutions because those posts are not contributing they are just demanding and we dont want that. No actually it would be a pretty simple solution - lock the thread after including a mod edit saying this is only one side of the story and the thread will be reopened once the other side has been added. Notice how I didn't insult you personally when I wrote that? Take this post as an example for your response. So then people cant post but still can read and have their own opinions? How is that different from what we have now? You will have both stories when each party releases it (Just different threads, but they are still the first post so it is easy to find). If you care you will read them both. I dont see any problem to realize it is only one sided story in the post. Basically, It is not TL that is the problem its people thinking is the problem. TL is not a judge, it is just a community site. It is not even a news site. It is not its job to clear the confusion, that job belongs to the parties involved. It is your job to wait for the whole story before jumping on the bandwagon and conclude. If you are confused, dont post and dont involve in it since you dont know. A real solution is that people need to mature the hell up and stop posting the first thing in their mind. PERIOD. TL has been and is still a discussion site, blocking discussion is not a TL thing to do. I am sorry if you think i insulted you, but your first post has no real solution beside saying tl mods have to do sth, so I stay corrected.
I agree that people need to mature up and not post the first thing on their mind, but that's not going to happen. It is these people's endless speculation and condemnation in the threads that creates a snowball effect. The TL community has a bad side to it, and this is it. Locking the threads, again, would be a pretty simple and harmless solution.
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On August 15 2011 02:57 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:54 NHY wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Dr.Sin wrote: If everyone within an organization coordinates with one another to act in unison, it makes no difference to say the organization or the individual members did it. Again, no not everyone in S2CON made this decision. NASL mentioned 5 teams are withdrawing. only 3 of them are in S2CON FXO and TSL quit SC2Con due to problems with them. The only one who pulled out who was not in SC2Con was SlayerS.
FXO and TSL quit S2CON and you don't count them as someone who isn't in S2CON? Also you are forgetting WeMadeFox.
The point is, S2CON is not a substitute name for 7 Korean teams. Korean teams are only part of S2CON, (yes they are vital one but it's not a whole), and those that made this decision are fraction of that.
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Well that clears the water a little bit. Damn, so much misrepresentation and confusion from both sides. I don't even know what to think.
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Imres:
From my perspective, this is what this is about: "You're defaming our organization even though, we, as the members of this organization, chose to do this (with one of our friends, ie SlayerS)".
I'm not trolling, I'm emphasizing that this is intellectual masturbation.
I understand your point about organizations vs members. However, I've yet to see any formal evidence that sc2con is nothing but an informal body to facilitate decision making. Considering the 'intense' discussion that people had re: PuMa and TSL, it is not unreasonable to question whether they even have statutes or anything more than a verbal basis for operating.
The consequences of a semantic difference are far less than those of the actions they're using semantics to distract from: their pulling out of the NASL.
You say this is about a serious matter and yet you're the one approaching it immaturely with personal attacks. Practice what you preach.
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On August 15 2011 03:10 Dr.Sin wrote: From my perspective, this is what this is about: "You're defaming our organization even though, we, as the members of this organization, chose to do this (with one of our friends, ie SlayerS)".
They are exactly trying to tell you that the "as members of this organization" part is irrelevant. And the fact that they all came to the same conclusion is because NASL itself really isn't worth it anymore.
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On August 15 2011 03:03 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable. It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature. The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong.
You're swapping one kind of wrong for another kind of wrong. Ultimately, they're still in the wrong. And speaking of ethics, it is still unethical for the teams to withdraw from a tournament through which they went through qualifiers and to break their contracts.
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On August 15 2011 03:15 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:03 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable. It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature. The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong. You're swapping one kind of wrong for another kind of wrong. Ultimately, they're still in the wrong. And speaking of ethics, it is still unethical for the teams to withdraw from a tournament through which they went through qualifiers and to break their contracts.
This thread is not about whether Korean teams acted ethically/legally.
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In this thread and in the others I've seen a lot of comments negatively portraying the NASL and arguments indicating that the Koreans were somehow not treated as well as they should have been. This is very unfair to the NASL.
It is true that having to get up at 3 or 4 am once a week to play your match sucks, and the travel expenses aren't even completely covered unless you place very high but isn't that true of most other tournaments? Consider the GSL, you don't get to play from your home at 4 am, you have to fly to Korea on your own dime, live there for several months, cover your own expenses and unless you get very far in code S you will be leaving with a lot less money than when you arrived.
Imagine if GSL was more like NASL, then Americans and Europeans could play their qualifier matches from home at 4 am, then if they got into code A they could play those matches from home at 4 am, and then if they made it into code S it would have to fly to Korea but the whole thing would be condensed into 3 days so they could show up, play their matches and fly home without racking up tons of living expenses. If that was the case there would probably be a lot more international players trying to participate in the GSL. Idra lived in Korea for a while, did he ever demand that the GSL pays for his living expenses while in Korea?
Also why are there no complaints from European and American players? In S.Korea everything is located in one city so maybe they don't realize even most players in the United States would have to pay for plane tickets and hotel expenses in order to play in tournaments within the United States.
Both tournaments are set up the way they are for a reason. It is fine to make a value judgement and determine that it is not in a player's or team's best interest to participate in a given tournament. The hate towards the NASL however is ridiculous.
All the talk of prize money also leads to another point. In another article the Korean's expressed anger that foreign tournaments are "using" Korean players to make money. My response would be "yeah so?". All tournaments including the GSL and MLG "use" players to make money, that is how business works. The prize money is not supposed to make it worth while for the teams. Prize money is a reward for individual players who do well. If esports gets big then the money will not come from prizes but from sponsorships which will fund expenses and players/coaches salaries. Sponsors will want to be represented in as many tournaments as possible, and having a good showing and a large fan base will make it easier for players and teams to attract sponsors. Are they going to cut off their nose to spite their face?
Playing in the NASL may be an overall expense for the Korean teams but it could yield long term results. My impression is that the Koreans are feeling threatened by the growing international presence. This is based on the comments in the TiG article and also sentiments expressed by coach Lee following the EG/Puma incident.
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NHY: This thread is about the koreans' response to the accusations they/sc2con acted unethically/illegally.
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On August 15 2011 03:19 Dr.Sin wrote: NHY: This thread is about the koreans' response to the accusations they/sc2con acted unethically/illegally.
Regarding the contracts, stop twisting the truth
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Imo why would koreans bother to play in NASL when they have to get up in the middle of the night to play? and its really drawn out. And tbh after the first seasons overall was a failure in my eyes i called it that it wouldent get any better.
imo all major events should pay the players to participate since people pay to watch the best people play, i dont pay NASL ticket for a stream that doesnt work
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I'm twisting the truth how? Seriously, I'm going by what I understand of this situation. I'm not being disingenuous.
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I don't think I ever said anyone acted unethically or illegally. I just explained why Koreans were leaving the league, and wishing they had told me earlier, simple as that. I mistakenly used the term SC2Con (because I had wrong information), and have apologized for using the name of the entire organization when it was just a few teams operating.
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On August 15 2011 03:23 Dr.Sin wrote: I'm twisting the truth how?
You didn't mention the context because in FXO case the answer seems to be yes (and imo it is), in this one, the answer is that the NASL screwed up regarding sc2con responsability (and PR generally)
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Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON.
Edit: Or are you in the wrong thread? From this one? Korean teams withdraw from NASL
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I believed the context was understood since we've been at this for a while now.
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On August 15 2011 03:15 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:03 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable. It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature. The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong. You're swapping one kind of wrong for another kind of wrong. Ultimately, they're still in the wrong. And speaking of ethics, it is still unethical for the teams to withdraw from a tournament through which they went through qualifiers and to break their contracts.
I agree. But that is the whole point tho. It is ethically wrong for S2CON to impose a rule or force all teams to not participate, which was what NASL accused them of, and S2CON is saying that this accusation is baseless and wrong. However they never disagree that what they did individually each team (withdrawing after qualifier, etc) wasn't wrong, however they gave their reasoning for this as well, and most importantly, is irrelevant to what their whole article is about.
This is like a group of high kids going to a music concert, and it sucked, so the kids started throwing rotten tomatoes. It is wrong for the kids to throw the rotten tomatoes for sure. But that doesn't mean their school told or forced the kids to do it. This is the same thing, the school is being accused of such, and they're just making a statement that the kids did so because they saw each other started throwing the tomatoes at first, had nothing to do with the school regardless even if all the kids were from the school.
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What IS sc2con anyway? I had never heard of them before this ^^
All I know it is some organization that teams may or may not belong in.
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On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote: Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON.
Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark.
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On August 15 2011 03:25 Dr.Sin wrote: I believed the context was understood since we've been at this for a while now.
Ok my bad, but with the two possibilities I really tought you were leaving this field open on purpose.
I apologize
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imo the only saving grace about the NASL was its Grand Finals(live), and that was mainly due to the Koreans players, Kr vs Kr or Kr vs Foreigners match up, and especially the awesome finals, with Puma.
To me it says alot there always seems to be controversies around the NASL. There are many other smaller (prize money/player number wise) tournaments internationally that have been attended by Koreans with much enthusiasm, yet only the NASL have face so much problems and issues with the Koreans. That's rather telling, personally. Format? Treatment? Expectations? Something is not right.
Although I wish the Kr teams to be more open about what they're doing, I really hope they get their well deserved international sponsors and exposures.
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On August 15 2011 03:22 ftjust wrote: Imo why would koreans bother to play in NASL when they have to get up in the middle of the night to play? and its really drawn out. And tbh after the first seasons overall was a failure in my eyes i called it that it wouldent get any better.
imo all major events should pay the players to participate since people pay to watch the best people play, i dont pay NASL ticket for a stream that doesnt work
It seems like you have negative feelings about the NASL due to their technical/quality issues and are trying to tie that into Korean playing conditions even though they are not related.
To answer your question about why would the Koreans want to get up int he middle of the night to play. It is simple, NASL has code S prize money and the Koreans did very well in season 1 and during the qualifiers. At least they don't have to fly to America, live here for months only to lose 1 series (possibly to cheese) and leave empty handed as is the case with their own tournament.
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On August 15 2011 03:25 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:15 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 03:03 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable. It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature. The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong. You're swapping one kind of wrong for another kind of wrong. Ultimately, they're still in the wrong. And speaking of ethics, it is still unethical for the teams to withdraw from a tournament through which they went through qualifiers and to break their contracts. I agree. But that is the whole point tho. It is ethically wrong for S2CON to impose a rule or force all teams to not participate, which was what NASL accused them of, and S2CON is saying that this accusation is baseless and wrong. However they never disagree that what they did individually each team (withdrawing after qualifier, etc) wasn't wrong, however they gave their reasoning for this as well, and most importantly, is irrelevant to what their whole article is about. This is like a group of high kids going to a music concert, and it sucked, so the kids started throwing rotten tomatoes. It is wrong for the kids to throw the rotten tomatoes for sure. But that doesn't mean their school told or forced the kids to do it. This is the same thing, the school is being accused of such, and they're just making a statement that the kids did so because they saw each other started throwing the tomatoes at first, had nothing to do with the school regardless even if all the kids were from the school.
Fubi: I agree about the disctinction, however to make your analogy really precise it should be:
All the kids in the french club went to see Celine Dion. They hated Celion Dion so they threw tomatoes at her. Then Celine Dion complained that the French Club threw tomatoes at her when it was just all the kids of the french club. Then the kids claim they're innocent from having thrown tomatoes because Celine said it was the french club.
Imres: its all good. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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On August 15 2011 03:26 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote: Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON. Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark.
Spend less time throwing peoples stuff on the floor and more time doing your job.
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On August 15 2011 03:26 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote: Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON. Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark.
I wasn't saying something happened. I should've said what "did/didn't happen between NASL and S2CON."
Also, I'm not sure what is your capacity in representing NASL, but I'd suggest sending an email to coaches. It worked for me earlier today.
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I know, SC2 con is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO innocent. Hey, lets take 50% of the spots in NASL, then decide not to play in it. Cmon people, are you freaking serious? Talk about holding NASL for ransom....
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I think I see what's going on..GSL wants to be the premier league in Korea and MLG wants to be the premier league everywhere else..NASL is stuck between a rock and a hard place
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What a load of crap are you telling me a player like sC who aint in GSL at all refused to play NASL? its pathetic dmg control at best. This hole situation for me seems that the whole korean sc2 scene is completly controlled and corrupt.
The korean teams and players signed the contract they knew the rules and what time they had to play now comming after the qualifier and try to dictate to NASL its just honorless and cowardly.
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On August 15 2011 03:28 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:25 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 03:15 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 03:03 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable. It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature. The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong. You're swapping one kind of wrong for another kind of wrong. Ultimately, they're still in the wrong. And speaking of ethics, it is still unethical for the teams to withdraw from a tournament through which they went through qualifiers and to break their contracts. I agree. But that is the whole point tho. It is ethically wrong for S2CON to impose a rule or force all teams to not participate, which was what NASL accused them of, and S2CON is saying that this accusation is baseless and wrong. However they never disagree that what they did individually each team (withdrawing after qualifier, etc) wasn't wrong, however they gave their reasoning for this as well, and most importantly, is irrelevant to what their whole article is about. This is like a group of high kids going to a music concert, and it sucked, so the kids started throwing rotten tomatoes. It is wrong for the kids to throw the rotten tomatoes for sure. But that doesn't mean their school told or forced the kids to do it. This is the same thing, the school is being accused of such, and they're just making a statement that the kids did so because they saw each other started throwing the tomatoes at first, had nothing to do with the school regardless even if all the kids were from the school. Fubi: I agree about the disctinction, however to make your analogy really precise it should be: All the kids in the french club went to see Celine Dion. They hated Celion Dion so they threw tomatoes at her. Then Celine Dion complained that the French Club threw tomatoes at her when it was just all the kids of the french club. Imres: its all good. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
It should be
Some of the kids in the french club went to see Celine Dion. They hated Celion Dion so they threw tomatoes at her. Then Celine Dion complained that the French Club threw tomatoes at her when it was just some of the kids of the french club.
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I talked with Xeris earlier today about this and he said that there have been a lot of problems with communication between all the parties involved. In fact, he isn't exactly sure what parties are involved.
http://esfiworld.com/sc2/news/xeris-miscommunication-blame-nasl-s2con-controversy
I also conducted a lengthy interview with him detailing the whole situation from his point of view. I was hoping to hold off publishing it so that I could get the Korean perspective, but so far the Korean teams I have contacted about this situation have declined to reply. I feel obligated to post that interview now so that you can get more details on the situation from NASL's point of view, so expect that on ESFIWorld shortly.
Also, I will try my best to get some information on the Korean side of things, and hopefully I'll have something to post about that later. No guarantees, though.
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On August 15 2011 03:30 Skarmory wrote: I know, SC2 con is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO innocent. Hey, lets take 50% of the spots in NASL, then decide not to play in it. Cmon people, are you freaking serious? Talk about holding NASL for ransom....
both have failed, and the problem is that NASL failure provided an excuse to SC2con and let them in the position of the last organization vitcimized.
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On August 15 2011 03:32 Nerdslayer wrote: What a load of crap are you telling me a player like sC who aint in GSL at all refused to play NASL? its pathetic dmg control at best. This hole situation for me seems that the whole korean sc2 scene is completly controlled.
The korean teams and players signed the contract they knew the rules and what time they had to play now comming after the qualifier and try to dictate to NASL its just honorless and cowardly.
That's was confirmed by FXOBoss, or do you believe he is working for S2CON, which he just withdrew from.
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On August 15 2011 03:28 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:25 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 03:15 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 03:03 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable. It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature. The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong. You're swapping one kind of wrong for another kind of wrong. Ultimately, they're still in the wrong. And speaking of ethics, it is still unethical for the teams to withdraw from a tournament through which they went through qualifiers and to break their contracts. I agree. But that is the whole point tho. It is ethically wrong for S2CON to impose a rule or force all teams to not participate, which was what NASL accused them of, and S2CON is saying that this accusation is baseless and wrong. However they never disagree that what they did individually each team (withdrawing after qualifier, etc) wasn't wrong, however they gave their reasoning for this as well, and most importantly, is irrelevant to what their whole article is about. This is like a group of high kids going to a music concert, and it sucked, so the kids started throwing rotten tomatoes. It is wrong for the kids to throw the rotten tomatoes for sure. But that doesn't mean their school told or forced the kids to do it. This is the same thing, the school is being accused of such, and they're just making a statement that the kids did so because they saw each other started throwing the tomatoes at first, had nothing to do with the school regardless even if all the kids were from the school. Fubi: I agree about the disctinction, however to make your analogy really precise it should be: All the kids in the french club went to see Celine Dion. They hated Celion Dion so they threw tomatoes at her. Then Celine Dion complained that the French Club threw tomatoes at her when it was just all the kids of the french club. Yes, exactly, and the French Club is coming out saying that the French Club did not in any way, told the kids or made a rule saying that "if the concert sucked, throw tomatoes", which they were being accused of, or at least indirectly implied that they were, when all in all, it was just one or two kids started doing it and the rest of the kids saw it and followed based on their own decision.
While clearly still a wrong thing to do, it is still a DIFFERENT matter, which this whole article is trying to tell you and clear up their first accusation.
Now, whether the teams are wrong or right in their decision itself, is a different topic all together, and isn't really what this article is trying to say.
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On August 15 2011 03:23 Xeris wrote: I don't think I ever said anyone acted unethically or illegally. I just explained why Koreans were leaving the league, and wishing they had told me earlier, simple as that. I mistakenly used the term SC2Con (because I had wrong information), and have apologized for using the name of the entire organization when it was just a few teams operating.
I hope people realized that Xeris have acknowledged that he mistakenly assumed that all the teams that withdrew, were part of SC2Con, and that it was an official response from that body. That has turned out to be untrue.
Not saying whether who's right or wrong, just that people should really read up a lil more before just randomly blasting stuffs.
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I trust the teams more than organisations seeking viewers. NASL has shown to be a fairly unprofessional organization and it doesn't surprise me they are they ones causing the fuss.
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Why are people so eager to play the blame game?
NASL has said they "don't know the exact dynamic of what's going on", SC2CON is "baffled" by what's happened. It's a case of misunderstanding here.
If people like Dr.Sin wishes so much to come up with an "ultimately, they are in the wrong" statement that's so sweeping, they should start pondering the fact that "all men are sinners"...
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This is where I'm missing a piece of information: did any team within sc2con choose to not withdraw (aside from FXO, which is no longer part of sc2con)? My understanding is all the koreans withdrew, in and out of sc2con.
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On August 15 2011 03:33 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:32 Nerdslayer wrote: What a load of crap are you telling me a player like sC who aint in GSL at all refused to play NASL? its pathetic dmg control at best. This hole situation for me seems that the whole korean sc2 scene is completly controlled.
The korean teams and players signed the contract they knew the rules and what time they had to play now comming after the qualifier and try to dictate to NASL its just honorless and cowardly. That's was confirmed by FXOBoss, or do you believe he is working for S2CON, which he just withdrew from.
Any1 with any brain can see whats going on here.
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On August 15 2011 03:34 Nerdslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:33 NHY wrote:On August 15 2011 03:32 Nerdslayer wrote: What a load of crap are you telling me a player like sC who aint in GSL at all refused to play NASL? its pathetic dmg control at best. This hole situation for me seems that the whole korean sc2 scene is completly controlled.
The korean teams and players signed the contract they knew the rules and what time they had to play now comming after the qualifier and try to dictate to NASL its just honorless and cowardly. That's was confirmed by FXOBoss, or do you believe he is working for S2CON, which he just withdrew from. Any1 with any brain can see whats going on here.
Imagination doesn't prove anything sorry for you
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On August 15 2011 03:34 Woizit wrote: Why are people so eager to play the blame game?
NASL has said they "don't know the exact dynamic of what's going on", SC2CON is "baffled" by what's happened. It's a case of misunderstanding here.
If people like Dr.Sin wishes so much to come up with an "ultimately, they are in the wrong" statement that's so sweeping, they should start pondering the fact that "all men are sinners"...
If you take half the seats in a tournament you qualified for, agreeing to the terms beforehand, and then withdraw, I'm sorry, "all men are sinners" doesn't cut it.
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On August 15 2011 03:32 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:28 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 03:25 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 03:15 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 03:03 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable. It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature. The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong. You're swapping one kind of wrong for another kind of wrong. Ultimately, they're still in the wrong. And speaking of ethics, it is still unethical for the teams to withdraw from a tournament through which they went through qualifiers and to break their contracts. I agree. But that is the whole point tho. It is ethically wrong for S2CON to impose a rule or force all teams to not participate, which was what NASL accused them of, and S2CON is saying that this accusation is baseless and wrong. However they never disagree that what they did individually each team (withdrawing after qualifier, etc) wasn't wrong, however they gave their reasoning for this as well, and most importantly, is irrelevant to what their whole article is about. This is like a group of high kids going to a music concert, and it sucked, so the kids started throwing rotten tomatoes. It is wrong for the kids to throw the rotten tomatoes for sure. But that doesn't mean their school told or forced the kids to do it. This is the same thing, the school is being accused of such, and they're just making a statement that the kids did so because they saw each other started throwing the tomatoes at first, had nothing to do with the school regardless even if all the kids were from the school. Fubi: I agree about the disctinction, however to make your analogy really precise it should be: All the kids in the french club went to see Celine Dion. They hated Celion Dion so they threw tomatoes at her. Then Celine Dion complained that the French Club threw tomatoes at her when it was just all the kids of the french club. Imres: its all good. Sorry for the misunderstanding. It should be Some of the kids in the french club went to see Celine Dion. They hated Celion Dion so they threw tomatoes at her. Then Celine Dion complained that the French Club threw tomatoes at her when it was just some of the kids of the french club.
And in that case, people would say that this reflects badly on the French Club, what kind of people do they let join if this is how they act. Remember when you are a member of whatever organization or club you represent said organization. Its like how the NFL and NBA had player conduct policies in place. They don't want their players giving the leagues a bad name by acting like idiots. So even if SC2Con didn't have anything to do with the actual decision, its still reflects badly on them that their 3 teams acted in a such a manner.
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Well, I think the real loser here is NASL. The playing level is drastically reduced with only foreigners playing.
Catz must be pretty happy though lol
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whether SC2Con had any influence or not, it's pretty obvious that the teams banded together on their NASL decision and did not do so independently of each other
they all have the same demands and grievances against NASL and they used Mr. Chae as a representative for "negotiations" between the teams and NASL
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On August 15 2011 03:38 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:32 NHY wrote:On August 15 2011 03:28 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 03:25 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 03:15 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 03:03 Fubi wrote:On August 15 2011 02:53 Dr.Sin wrote:On August 15 2011 02:51 Fubi wrote: The main point is that each team had individual freedom to make that decision for themselves and no rule or decision was made collectively by S2CON.
It doesn't matter if they had the individual freedom to do it, they still did it collectively. It doesn't matter that it wasn't imposed on them when they decided to act together. The people making the decision within the team are the very same people that run sc2con. It is indistinguishable. It totally matters and is totally different. Like my example earlier, people at concerts stood up to clap when others around them does it, is totally different from being told at the time they entered that "you must stand up and clap or else you will be asked to leave the concert". One is ethically wrong while the other is a perfectly normal human nature. The same for S2CON. It is ethically wrong to make a rule or force everyone to withdraw collectively, while there is absolutely nothing wrong with one guy telling his friends that "well I'm gona withdraw, because so and so doesn't seem worth it anymore", and then his friends thought about it and went like "yea you're right, I agree, I think I'm gonna do that too". We all do the latter, it is a part of social nature, while the former is just ethically wrong. You're swapping one kind of wrong for another kind of wrong. Ultimately, they're still in the wrong. And speaking of ethics, it is still unethical for the teams to withdraw from a tournament through which they went through qualifiers and to break their contracts. I agree. But that is the whole point tho. It is ethically wrong for S2CON to impose a rule or force all teams to not participate, which was what NASL accused them of, and S2CON is saying that this accusation is baseless and wrong. However they never disagree that what they did individually each team (withdrawing after qualifier, etc) wasn't wrong, however they gave their reasoning for this as well, and most importantly, is irrelevant to what their whole article is about. This is like a group of high kids going to a music concert, and it sucked, so the kids started throwing rotten tomatoes. It is wrong for the kids to throw the rotten tomatoes for sure. But that doesn't mean their school told or forced the kids to do it. This is the same thing, the school is being accused of such, and they're just making a statement that the kids did so because they saw each other started throwing the tomatoes at first, had nothing to do with the school regardless even if all the kids were from the school. Fubi: I agree about the disctinction, however to make your analogy really precise it should be: All the kids in the french club went to see Celine Dion. They hated Celion Dion so they threw tomatoes at her. Then Celine Dion complained that the French Club threw tomatoes at her when it was just all the kids of the french club. Imres: its all good. Sorry for the misunderstanding. It should be Some of the kids in the french club went to see Celine Dion. They hated Celion Dion so they threw tomatoes at her. Then Celine Dion complained that the French Club threw tomatoes at her when it was just some of the kids of the french club. And in that case, people would say that this reflects badly on the French Club, what kind of people do they let join if this is how they act. Remember when you are a member of whatever organization or club you represent said organization. Its like how the NFL and NBA had player conduct policies in place. They don't want their players giving the leagues a bad name by acting like idiots. So even if SC2Con didn't have anything to do with the actual decision, its still reflects badly on them that their 3 teams acted in a such a manner.
You could say that. But you can't say that French Club made them do that and that's the point of this article.
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On August 15 2011 03:34 Dr.Sin wrote: This is where I'm missing a piece of information: did any team within sc2con choose to not withdraw (aside from FXO, which is no longer part of sc2con)? My understanding is all the koreans withdrew, in and out of sc2con. I believe all the teams within S2CON as well as 2-3 other teams outside of S2CON (so pretty much every korean team) decided not to participate. *edit: (half of the S2CON teams weren't participating in the first place. Refer to NHY's first post, only 3 of the teams from S2CON are actually involved in this)
Doesn't the fact that every team outside of S2CON decided not to participate show even more so that it has nothing to do with S2CON the organization itself, but more so with how NASL dealt with the matter or how it is structured, that every Korean teams decided it isn't worth it? Anyways, I'm not trying to justify their actions or saying it is right or wrong. I'm just saying that this article saying that S2CON had nothing to do with it, is indeed correct and reasonable.
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The real question here is, why are is the SC2CON so important to the Koreans, and why does it require such a vigorous defense? Why are the players and then teams de-emphasized over and over again in respect to every major Korean-International interaction? Perhaps most importantly, why have we never heard about SC2CON until there seems to be nothing but negativity?
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On August 15 2011 03:43 farvacola wrote: The real question here is, why are is the SC2CON so important to the Koreans, and why does it require such a vigorous defense? Why are the players and then teams de-emphasized over and over again in respect to every major Korean-International interaction? Perhaps most importantly, why have we never heard about SC2CON until there seems to be nothing but negativity?
Because perhaps you aren't a korean person who is on korean sites and would get far more exposure to something a korean association does?
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On August 15 2011 03:45 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:43 farvacola wrote: The real question here is, why are is the SC2CON so important to the Koreans, and why does it require such a vigorous defense? Why are the players and then teams de-emphasized over and over again in respect to every major Korean-International interaction? Perhaps most importantly, why have we never heard about SC2CON until there seems to be nothing but negativity? Because perhaps you aren't a korean person who is on korean sites and would get far more exposure to something a korean association does?
They why on actual Korean sites are the feeling toward SC2Con pretty much the same as here?
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On August 15 2011 03:35 Imres wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:34 Nerdslayer wrote:On August 15 2011 03:33 NHY wrote:On August 15 2011 03:32 Nerdslayer wrote: What a load of crap are you telling me a player like sC who aint in GSL at all refused to play NASL? its pathetic dmg control at best. This hole situation for me seems that the whole korean sc2 scene is completly controlled.
The korean teams and players signed the contract they knew the rules and what time they had to play now comming after the qualifier and try to dictate to NASL its just honorless and cowardly. That's was confirmed by FXOBoss, or do you believe he is working for S2CON, which he just withdrew from. Any1 with any brain can see whats going on here. Imagination doesn't prove anything sorry for you
I dont need proff to make up my mind its very easy to read between the lines wtf is going on here.
Aperently the korean sc2 leaders has been in training by Kim Il-sung in how to control a "society"
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Sounds like NASL is being unprofessional again.
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The main problem with online cross world tourneys is time restrictions, Koreans were being forced to play at ungodly hours when they were exhausted in order to participate, and after the first few times they probably realized that it was a load off shit and they had no way to get out of it unless they forfeited their $250 deposit.
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On August 15 2011 03:45 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:43 farvacola wrote: The real question here is, why are is the SC2CON so important to the Koreans, and why does it require such a vigorous defense? Why are the players and then teams de-emphasized over and over again in respect to every major Korean-International interaction? Perhaps most importantly, why have we never heard about SC2CON until there seems to be nothing but negativity? Because perhaps you aren't a korean person who is on korean sites and would get far more exposure to something a korean association does? Both PlayXP and TiG are full to the brim with KOREAN netizen reactions that are asking the same questions I am. More bullshit please.
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Fubi: I concede your point. I misunderstood.
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What is S2con, and What is SC2Con? I don't understand any of this, I want too, but i don't. I just want the good guys to be the korean teams.
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On August 15 2011 03:47 Nerdslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:35 Imres wrote:On August 15 2011 03:34 Nerdslayer wrote:On August 15 2011 03:33 NHY wrote:On August 15 2011 03:32 Nerdslayer wrote: What a load of crap are you telling me a player like sC who aint in GSL at all refused to play NASL? its pathetic dmg control at best. This hole situation for me seems that the whole korean sc2 scene is completly controlled.
The korean teams and players signed the contract they knew the rules and what time they had to play now comming after the qualifier and try to dictate to NASL its just honorless and cowardly. That's was confirmed by FXOBoss, or do you believe he is working for S2CON, which he just withdrew from. Any1 with any brain can see whats going on here. Imagination doesn't prove anything sorry for you I dont need proff to make up my mind its very easy to read between the lines wtf is going on here. Aperently the korean sc2 leaders has been in training by Kim Il-sung in how to control a "society"
Wow really dude?? Comparing the leaders of a gaming group to a facist, power hungry, commits atrocious crimes against his own people world leader??? REALLY?? As much as I don't like SC2Con and their role in all this. thats just plain wrong. Just compare them to Hitler while you are it.
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On August 15 2011 03:47 Nerdslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:35 Imres wrote:On August 15 2011 03:34 Nerdslayer wrote:On August 15 2011 03:33 NHY wrote:On August 15 2011 03:32 Nerdslayer wrote: What a load of crap are you telling me a player like sC who aint in GSL at all refused to play NASL? its pathetic dmg control at best. This hole situation for me seems that the whole korean sc2 scene is completly controlled.
The korean teams and players signed the contract they knew the rules and what time they had to play now comming after the qualifier and try to dictate to NASL its just honorless and cowardly. That's was confirmed by FXOBoss, or do you believe he is working for S2CON, which he just withdrew from. Any1 with any brain can see whats going on here. Imagination doesn't prove anything sorry for you I dont need proff to make up my mind its very easy to read between the lines wtf is going on here. Aperently the korean sc2 leaders has been in training by Kim Il-sung in how to control a "society"
Seriously man, what are you talking about?
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On August 15 2011 03:51 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:45 JinDesu wrote:On August 15 2011 03:43 farvacola wrote: The real question here is, why are is the SC2CON so important to the Koreans, and why does it require such a vigorous defense? Why are the players and then teams de-emphasized over and over again in respect to every major Korean-International interaction? Perhaps most importantly, why have we never heard about SC2CON until there seems to be nothing but negativity? Because perhaps you aren't a korean person who is on korean sites and would get far more exposure to something a korean association does? Both PlayXP and TiG are full to the brim with KOREAN netizen reactions that are asking the same questions I am. More bullshit please.
No, there's hardly anyone asking "what is S2CON?"
If you are referring to the posts like "why is S2CON doing this?" Those posts are results of NASL's claim that S2CON was blocking teams from participating in NASL. Note that NASL has since retracted that claim.
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So what I've learned from all this drama is that when in doubt, the Koreans are probably the ones that are telling the truth or are right. Okay.
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Now choya says taht SC didnt want to participate? Such Bullshit. Boss stated that SC wanted to participate all along. AND THEY WERE WAITING ON SC2CON STATEMENT. Gives me the feeling that while not directly deciding, sc2con looks like an undermining agent.
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On August 15 2011 04:05 Usagi wrote: Now choya says taht SC didnt want to participate? Such Bullshit. Boss stated that SC wanted to participate all along. AND THEY WERE WAITING ON SC2CON STATEMENT. Gives me the feeling that while not directly deciding, sc2con looks like an undermining agent.
Seung-Chul "sC" Kim was one of many Koreans who qualified for NASL Season 2 through their qualifier tournaments, but according to Josh "BoSs" Dentrinos, the FXOpen manager, the NASL schedule affected sC's Global Starcraft League practice schedule too much.
http://esfiworld.com/sc2/news/xeris-miscommunication-blame-nasl-s2con-controversy
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On August 15 2011 04:06 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 04:05 Usagi wrote: Now choya says taht SC didnt want to participate? Such Bullshit. Boss stated that SC wanted to participate all along. AND THEY WERE WAITING ON SC2CON STATEMENT. Gives me the feeling that while not directly deciding, sc2con looks like an undermining agent. Show nested quote +Seung-Chul "sC" Kim was one of many Koreans who qualified for NASL Season 2 through their qualifier tournaments, but according to Josh "BoSs" Dentrinos, the FXOpen manager, the NASL schedule affected sC's Global Starcraft League practice schedule too much. http://esfiworld.com/sc2/news/xeris-miscommunication-blame-nasl-s2con-controversy
Then why bother qualifying and signing contracts. That's what I don't get.
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This whole thing is one big shit storm. In the end it's only going to hurt the scene. We can only hope something "good" comes out of it all but doubt it.
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On August 14 2011 22:53 Ferox77 wrote: Why can’t NASL just realize that the Koreans do not want to participate in the league. IMO they look kind of pathetic begging the Koreans to play. NASL should not cater to anyone, just let the players who want an opportunity “apply” and then pick from those.
Yeah like some kind of open qualification system where players that want to play try to qualify.. Oh wait they DID do that you mong. And so far I havnt seen much begging, only statements that pertain to the fact that the Korean teams have withdrawn from the event despite attempts to accomodate them. Honestly most organisations get praised for making efforts to accomodate the players better, sheesh..
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Ok so NASL wrongly involved sc2con. Thats definitely wrong of them, seems like they got some bad information.
But it still doesn't change the fact that what the teams have done is wrong in signing contracts and then backing out 2 days into production
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man i dont know who to believe now. everytime we get finger pointing and bashing. round and round we go
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On August 15 2011 04:25 jmbthirteen wrote: Ok so NASL wrongly involved sc2con. Thats definitely wrong of them, seems like they got some bad information.
Do you honestly think sc2con wasn't a hidden hand during all of this? Just because it isn't official sc2con policy doesn't mean they weren't pressuring/threatening teams to act in a certain way collectively.
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NASL season 1: Korean Team are happy to have their players participate in the NasL; Including BoxeR.
Now come season 2, many of the SC2CON members decided to pull out the last moment. Whether, this decision was made has a whole organizaion or just individual team. Whatever the reason is, it seem they don't want to part of the NASL. Maybe the following reason might have cause them to reconsider: 1: Puma leaving TSL for EG. 2: Latency and playing time can be difficult for some player. 3: The tournament format seem unforgiving in the final, knowing there's no double elimination. 4: They really can't afford to send their player's due little sponsorship.
I hope both parties can find a better way to communicate in future endeavor. Nevertheless, Am going to continue my support for the Nasl, GsL,MLg and generally E-Sport.
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What people need to understand is that Koreans are not going to assimilate into the global scene. They're perfectly content with the status quo where they don't have contracts, don't get salaries, and stay in their own world. If SC2 gets even a modicum of popularity in Korea then the fad trend there is that everyone will jump on board and then they will have a big league like with Brood War. However, if that doesn't happen they're perfectly fine with a barren landscape as they have now.
People need to understand that Koreans like Fnatic's Rain and EG's Puma are the minority. Guys like sC who would rather just not play NASL are the norm as evidenced by all the Koreans so willingly dropping NASL. Honestly, we would love to have them join us and grow the scene but it's not going to happen as easily if at all like people want it.
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I'm not suggesting any kind of Korean coverup, but consider that PlayXP is a Korean site that almost certainly has a Korean bias. I still think that this isn't the whole story, and that NASL wouldn't accuse anyone of anything if it was completely baseless: that's just bad business.
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On August 15 2011 04:43 mbr2321 wrote: I'm not suggesting any kind of Korean coverup, but consider that PlayXP is a Korean site that almost certainly has a Korean bias. I still think that this isn't the whole story, and that NASL wouldn't accuse anyone of anything if it was completely baseless: that's just bad business.
You do realize that NASL has admitted to alot of this being a result of miscommunication.
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On August 15 2011 04:30 forgottendreams wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 04:25 jmbthirteen wrote: Ok so NASL wrongly involved sc2con. Thats definitely wrong of them, seems like they got some bad information. Do you honestly think sc2con wasn't a hidden hand during all of this? Just because it isn't official sc2con policy doesn't mean they weren't pressuring/threatening teams to act in a certain way collectively.
Actually it's a flying spaghetti monster pulling strings behind the curtain. I have no evidence whatsoever but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
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On August 15 2011 04:43 mbr2321 wrote: I'm not suggesting any kind of Korean coverup, but consider that PlayXP is a Korean site that almost certainly has a Korean bias. I still think that this isn't the whole story, and that NASL wouldn't accuse anyone of anything if it was completely baseless: that's just bad business.
by the same token, your reading a foreigner site, that almost certainly has foreigner bias.
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On August 15 2011 04:43 mbr2321 wrote: I'm not suggesting any kind of Korean coverup, but consider that PlayXP is a Korean site that almost certainly has a Korean bias. I still think that this isn't the whole story, and that NASL wouldn't accuse anyone of anything if it was completely baseless: that's just bad business.
NASL just apologized for implicating Fou and MVP?
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drama dram in korea man damn
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This doesn't change anything in my opinion. Korean teams signed a contract that they would participate in NASL season 2 and then broke that contract during the season by withdrawing completely. Breaking contracts is dishonorable. Plain and Simple.
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
On August 15 2011 04:42 wats0n wrote: What people need to understand is that Koreans are not going to assimilate into the global scene. They're perfectly content with the status quo where they don't have contracts, don't get salaries, and stay in their own world. If SC2 gets even a modicum of popularity in Korea then the fad trend there is that everyone will jump on board and then they will have a big league like with Brood War. However, if that doesn't happen they're perfectly fine with a barren landscape as they have now.
People need to understand that Koreans like Fnatic's Rain and EG's Puma are the minority. Guys like sC who would rather just not play NASL are the norm as evidenced by all the Koreans so willingly dropping NASL. Honestly, we would love to have them join us and grow the scene but it's not going to happen as easily if at all like people want it.
sC seems to want to participate in other foreign tournaments, just not NASL. Kind of like BoxeR, NaDa, NaNiwa, ThorZaIN, etc.
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On August 15 2011 04:30 forgottendreams wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 04:25 jmbthirteen wrote: Ok so NASL wrongly involved sc2con. Thats definitely wrong of them, seems like they got some bad information. Do you honestly think sc2con wasn't a hidden hand during all of this? Just because it isn't official sc2con policy doesn't mean they weren't pressuring/threatening teams to act in a certain way collectively. Well this post plus what FXOBoss said (who is, well was a part of sc2con and its a good guy) does make it seem that it may not have been sc2con. sc2con may have helped in a united front way.
What I do find interesting is that I remember comments about sC not being sure if he wanted to play because he didn't know if he wanted to go against the stance that was taken by the Korean teams. Of course I'm sure the GSL schedule and not wanting to compromise it certainly factored in his ultimate decision to not play.
I do feel that with the Korean teams pulling out, it did put pressure on players like sC and the guys in MVP to not play as they didn't want to go against what their fellow teams were doing.
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I dont blame the Korean teams for not wanting to participate in the NASL. It's alot of money to fly back and forth, not to mention the time lost and jet lag.
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On August 15 2011 04:43 mbr2321 wrote: I'm not suggesting any kind of Korean coverup, but consider that PlayXP is a Korean site that almost certainly has a Korean bias. I still think that this isn't the whole story, and that NASL wouldn't accuse anyone of anything if it was completely baseless: that's just bad business. Except 1 little thing. They just did and admitted it.
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On August 15 2011 04:42 wats0n wrote: What people need to understand is that Koreans are not going to assimilate into the global scene. They're perfectly content with the status quo where they don't have contracts, don't get salaries, and stay in their own world. If SC2 gets even a modicum of popularity in Korea then the fad trend there is that everyone will jump on board and then they will have a big league like with Brood War. However, if that doesn't happen they're perfectly fine with a barren landscape as they have now.
People need to understand that Koreans like Fnatic's Rain and EG's Puma are the minority. Guys like sC who would rather just not play NASL are the norm as evidenced by all the Koreans so willingly dropping NASL. Honestly, we would love to have them join us and grow the scene but it's not going to happen as easily if at all like people want it. I don't understand how you can say that when we have seen multiple Koreans join foreign teams, multiple Korean teams make partnerships with foreign teams and pretty much every Korean that has come to a foreign tournament say how much they loved playing in them because of the fans.
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On August 15 2011 04:53 Lord_J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 04:42 wats0n wrote: What people need to understand is that Koreans are not going to assimilate into the global scene. They're perfectly content with the status quo where they don't have contracts, don't get salaries, and stay in their own world. If SC2 gets even a modicum of popularity in Korea then the fad trend there is that everyone will jump on board and then they will have a big league like with Brood War. However, if that doesn't happen they're perfectly fine with a barren landscape as they have now.
People need to understand that Koreans like Fnatic's Rain and EG's Puma are the minority. Guys like sC who would rather just not play NASL are the norm as evidenced by all the Koreans so willingly dropping NASL. Honestly, we would love to have them join us and grow the scene but it's not going to happen as easily if at all like people want it. sC seems to want to participate in other foreign tournaments, just not NASL. Kind of like BoxeR, NaDa, NaNiwa, ThorZaIN, etc.
Participation and assimilation are different things. And Naniwa and Thorzain don't belong in that sentence. They're fully assimilated into the foreign scene and only had time conflicts with NASL.
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I'm pretty sure it wasn't just a time issue with Naniwa, he had multiple issues with the way things were done by NASL.
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id believe the koreans' statements over the americans anyday
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On August 15 2011 05:03 Slider954 wrote: I'm pretty sure it wasn't just a time issue with Naniwa, he had multiple issues with the way things were done by NASL.
You're digressing. Naniwa had an issue outside of assimilation, that's not the point of the argument.
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aww, NASL almost had my sympathy but then had to go throw baseless allegations and acting all amateurish. Back to square one.
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Well seems like this story obviously wasn't as one-sided as it seems. Love how NASL always gets caught up in controversy though.
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On August 14 2011 22:01 flakmonkey wrote: sC didn't wish to participate in NASL? That doesn't make any sense to me. Why would he attempt to qualify for the tournament in the first place?
Pretty good shot at a huge prizepool as well now that a lot of the big hitters are gone.
Who knows what was said behind closed doors to the wayward teams. The only qualification to that suspicion is that Choya/ FXO said something contradictin the NASL.
On August 15 2011 05:06 sYstim wrote: id believe the koreans' statements over the americans anyday
It's interesting what sort of bias this forum has against "foreigners."
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On August 15 2011 05:08 Longshank wrote: aww, NASL almost had my sympathy but then had to go throw baseless allegations and acting all amateurish. Back to square one.
Baseless? They had signed contracts then they proceeded with their league then the Koreans broke their contracts.
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On August 15 2011 05:06 wats0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:03 Slider954 wrote: I'm pretty sure it wasn't just a time issue with Naniwa, he had multiple issues with the way things were done by NASL. You're digressing. Naniwa had an issue outside of assimilation, that's not the point of the argument.
I'm just pointing out that you said that Naniwa only had time conflicts with NASL and I'm stating that wasn't the case, it wasn't just a time issue. Thats all
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This whole situation is exactly why the SC2 scene needs some good, quality journalists working to figure out what is actually going on. As long as we rely on official press releases for EVERYTHING, it will always result in "he said, she said" situations.
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On August 15 2011 05:11 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:06 wats0n wrote:On August 15 2011 05:03 Slider954 wrote: I'm pretty sure it wasn't just a time issue with Naniwa, he had multiple issues with the way things were done by NASL. You're digressing. Naniwa had an issue outside of assimilation, that's not the point of the argument. I'm just pointing out that you said that Naniwa only had time conflicts with NASL and I'm stating that wasn't the case. Thats all
Okay, and I'm stating that's tangential to the argument.
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On August 15 2011 05:12 wats0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:11 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 05:06 wats0n wrote:On August 15 2011 05:03 Slider954 wrote: I'm pretty sure it wasn't just a time issue with Naniwa, he had multiple issues with the way things were done by NASL. You're digressing. Naniwa had an issue outside of assimilation, that's not the point of the argument. I'm just pointing out that you said that Naniwa only had time conflicts with NASL and I'm stating that wasn't the case. Thats all Okay, and I'm stating that's tangential to the argument.
Is it really that hard to say oops, my bad I was wrong? Watch, I'll show you how. Yes you are right, this isn't relevant to the topic and I'm wrong for going of an a tangent. There you see, easy peazy.
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On August 15 2011 05:14 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:12 wats0n wrote:On August 15 2011 05:11 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 05:06 wats0n wrote:On August 15 2011 05:03 Slider954 wrote: I'm pretty sure it wasn't just a time issue with Naniwa, he had multiple issues with the way things were done by NASL. You're digressing. Naniwa had an issue outside of assimilation, that's not the point of the argument. I'm just pointing out that you said that Naniwa only had time conflicts with NASL and I'm stating that wasn't the case. Thats all Okay, and I'm stating that's tangential to the argument. Is it really that hard to say oops, my bad I was wrong?
Can't believe I have to do this...
The "only" you quoted was used in the context of Naniwa and Thorzain's issues being less than assimilation not to mean that their issues were "singularly" limited to time. So that's a misinterpretation on your part. Furthermore, as I stated when I first replied to you, you're ignoring my point to argue a minor detail. You're being pedantic and I never said that I was listing all Naniwa's reasons.
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On August 15 2011 05:10 wats0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:08 Longshank wrote: aww, NASL almost had my sympathy but then had to go throw baseless allegations and acting all amateurish. Back to square one. Baseless? They had signed contracts then they proceeded with their league then the Koreans broke their contracts.
Yes and that had me in favor of NASL. But then Xeris accused SC2con for blocking FXO and MVP from participating.
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On August 15 2011 05:18 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:10 wats0n wrote:On August 15 2011 05:08 Longshank wrote: aww, NASL almost had my sympathy but then had to go throw baseless allegations and acting all amateurish. Back to square one. Baseless? They had signed contracts then they proceeded with their league then the Koreans broke their contracts. Yes and that had me in favor of NASL. But then Xeris accused SC2con for blocking FXO and MVP from participating.
They may have poisoned the waters behind the scenes for all we know. It's sketchy as hell that literally every single Korean would pull out at the exact same time after the league had already started. It's not shocking that they would convince themselves that it was their own decision after they already acted.
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This actually doesn't change much, and Xeris has already stated that they got some information wrong. Doesn't change that they all decided to withdraw as the league starts.
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My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff?
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On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote: My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff? season 2 qualifier began when season 1 wasn't over yet. No one at that time know how NASL handled stuffs.
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On August 15 2011 05:27 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote: My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff? season 2 qualifier began when season 1 wasn't over yet. No one at that time know how NASL handled stuffs.
What did NASL do wrong after Season1?
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On August 15 2011 05:27 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote: My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff? season 2 qualifier began when season 1 wasn't over yet. No one at that time know how NASL handled stuffs.
And contracts were signed two weeks ago after everyone knows how NASL handles stuffs.
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On August 15 2011 05:21 wats0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:18 Longshank wrote:On August 15 2011 05:10 wats0n wrote:On August 15 2011 05:08 Longshank wrote: aww, NASL almost had my sympathy but then had to go throw baseless allegations and acting all amateurish. Back to square one. Baseless? They had signed contracts then they proceeded with their league then the Koreans broke their contracts. Yes and that had me in favor of NASL. But then Xeris accused SC2con for blocking FXO and MVP from participating. They may have poisoned the waters behind the scenes for all we know. It's sketchy as hell that literally every single Korean would pull out at the exact same time after the league had already started. It's not shocking that they would convince themselves that it was their own decision after they already acted.
FXOBoss had already explained here on TL that sC didn't wish to participate for personal reasons when Xeris posted his allegations. And Boss is not getting pushed around by SC2con.
Stopbeing paranoid, Xeris said himself he only had second hand information to go on...and that information turned out incorrect.
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Xeris if you read this: in the future do an invite only qualifier. Use the other tournaments to determine your invites. You don't need 1,000 man open qualifiers. You got carried away and there shouldn't have been 20 Koreans (or whatever the number was) in the league to begin with. Use invites to seed the better ones if you must.
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if i would be a korean team manager i would be like glee free money right now *send team in*. well since i prefer when regions play vs their own region i am all for it. But damn the communication between us and korea is just plain bad. I would just stop posting on forums or twitter. Only bad publicity lol
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On August 15 2011 05:28 Dexx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:27 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote: My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff? season 2 qualifier began when season 1 wasn't over yet. No one at that time know how NASL handled stuffs. What did NASL do wrong after Season1? 1) The LAN finals were awful. Cost players lots of money to fly over (since they only provided $500) and play 1 bo3. 2) Asking another $500 to play in season 2 while not paying back $250 from season 1 yet (yeah i know the contract, it's still the truth that they have to put $750 out)
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Just want to say that the MLG - NASL comparisons are way off base. Yes, MLG is a smaller prize pool, but it's 5k for 3 days(call it a week with travel and jet lag). NASL is 50k for 11 weeks of play, including practice time, waking up at odd hours, and the week of travel/jet lag. If you want to bring up the PuMa coming through the open bracket, look at the players he had to beat to do that, that's lottery type odds.
It's a huge time investment. Also, if the teams are as cash strapped as it sounds, it's not surprising they're reluctant to put more money into the NASL before they get money back out.(Contracts are right, NASL is doing nothing technically wrong here, but ask a homeless person to pay you for tomorrow night's supper before you feed them tonight)
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On August 15 2011 05:32 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:21 wats0n wrote:On August 15 2011 05:18 Longshank wrote:On August 15 2011 05:10 wats0n wrote:On August 15 2011 05:08 Longshank wrote: aww, NASL almost had my sympathy but then had to go throw baseless allegations and acting all amateurish. Back to square one. Baseless? They had signed contracts then they proceeded with their league then the Koreans broke their contracts. Yes and that had me in favor of NASL. But then Xeris accused SC2con for blocking FXO and MVP from participating. They may have poisoned the waters behind the scenes for all we know. It's sketchy as hell that literally every single Korean would pull out at the exact same time after the league had already started. It's not shocking that they would convince themselves that it was their own decision after they already acted. FXOBoss had already explained here on TL that sC didn't wish to participate for personal reasons when Xeris posted his allegations. And Boss is not getting pushed around by SC2con. Stopbeing paranoid, Xeris said himself he only had second hand information to go on...and that information turned out incorrect.
But didn't sC go thru qualifiers for season 2? If he had reasons for not participating then why qualify for the season. That's what I don't understand.
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On August 15 2011 05:36 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:28 Dexx wrote:On August 15 2011 05:27 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote: My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff? season 2 qualifier began when season 1 wasn't over yet. No one at that time know how NASL handled stuffs. What did NASL do wrong after Season1? 1) The LAN finals were awful. Cost players lots of money to fly over (since they only provided $500) and play 1 bo3. 2) Asking another $500 to play in season 2 while not paying back $250 from season 1 yet (yeah i know the contract, it's still the truth that they have to put $750 out)
Let's try and be factually correct please.
From what I read, the teams that paid their deposit the first time around had the option to simply up their depost. If they deposited 250 USD in S1, and are playing S2 again, they'd only have to wire another 250 USD over, not an additional 500.
(500 still is a ridiculous amount tho)
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On August 15 2011 05:39 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:36 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:28 Dexx wrote:On August 15 2011 05:27 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote: My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff? season 2 qualifier began when season 1 wasn't over yet. No one at that time know how NASL handled stuffs. What did NASL do wrong after Season1? 1) The LAN finals were awful. Cost players lots of money to fly over (since they only provided $500) and play 1 bo3. 2) Asking another $500 to play in season 2 while not paying back $250 from season 1 yet (yeah i know the contract, it's still the truth that they have to put $750 out) Let's try and be factually correct please. From what I read, the teams that paid their deposit the first time around had the option to simply up their depost. If they deposited 250 USD in S1, and are playing S2 again, they'd only have to wire another 250 USD over, not an additional 500. (500 still is a ridiculous amount tho)
If it makes sure that players show up for their matches as scheduled, I think 500 is fine. Actually 500 is probably not enough as evidenced in S1 when there were multiple times that people didn't show up and highly inconvenienced their opponents, especially the korean players, who were already playing at 4am and then asked to wait sometimes for up to 4 hours for the opponents who still didn't show up.
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On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote: My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff?
+1
OK nasl called a group of ppl a name that already was taken, ok fine. But why not comment on the facts in this case =)
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On August 15 2011 05:36 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:28 Dexx wrote:On August 15 2011 05:27 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote: My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff? season 2 qualifier began when season 1 wasn't over yet. No one at that time know how NASL handled stuffs. What did NASL do wrong after Season1? 1) The LAN finals were awful. Cost players lots of money to fly over (since they only provided $500) and play 1 bo3. 2) Asking another $500 to play in season 2 while not paying back $250 from season 1 yet (yeah i know the contract, it's still the truth that they have to put $750 out)
I asked you what did NASL do wrong, meaning what were the things they promised but did not keep, where did they violate the contracts?
Why did the Koreans sign the contracts that asked for a deposit, when they did not like the terms?
Don't they read contracts before they sign them? What do you thing would happen, if anyone on here signed a mobile phone contract and out of a sudden didn't like the terms afterwards? For sure the comany would give a refund and terminate the contract? lol only in your dreams...
If you don't have your acts together in this world, you don't survive long.
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On August 15 2011 05:36 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:28 Dexx wrote:On August 15 2011 05:27 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote: My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff? season 2 qualifier began when season 1 wasn't over yet. No one at that time know how NASL handled stuffs. What did NASL do wrong after Season1? 1) The LAN finals were awful. Cost players lots of money to fly over (since they only provided $500) and play 1 bo3. 2) Asking another $500 to play in season 2 while not paying back $250 from season 1 yet (yeah i know the contract, it's still the truth that they have to put $750 out)
No they are now asking for $500, up from $250. This means that if you want to participate in Season 2, you will pay $250 more and not get your S1 deposit back. If you don't want to participate in Season 2, then you get your $250 back.
EDIT: To clarify, you get your $500 back at the end of S2, unless you want to participate in S3, or if they waive the deposit due to good past behavior.
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On August 15 2011 05:36 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:28 Dexx wrote:On August 15 2011 05:27 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote: My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff? season 2 qualifier began when season 1 wasn't over yet. No one at that time know how NASL handled stuffs. What did NASL do wrong after Season1? 1) The LAN finals were awful. Cost players lots of money to fly over (since they only provided $500) and play 1 bo3. 2) Asking another $500 to play in season 2 while not paying back $250 from season 1 yet (yeah i know the contract, it's still the truth that they have to put $750 out) 1. The Korean teams knew they were only getting a $500 travel stipend from the start and I'd imagine that was in the s1 contract. Its silly to complain about that when they knew about it from the start. If you don't like it, don't agree to play in the league, simple as that.
2. Teams were given the option to just send in another $250 and not receive their s1 deposit to make up the $500 s2 deposit. For players that weren't in s2 deposits were returned.
You really should familiarize yourself with the situation before making such claims.
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I remember the shitstorm that ensued when Painuser was absent for his match against Boxer. They probably upped the deposit to prevent something like that from happening again. And yet, NASL received undue hate in both instances. Talk about irony.
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On August 15 2011 05:38 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:32 Longshank wrote:On August 15 2011 05:21 wats0n wrote:On August 15 2011 05:18 Longshank wrote:On August 15 2011 05:10 wats0n wrote:On August 15 2011 05:08 Longshank wrote: aww, NASL almost had my sympathy but then had to go throw baseless allegations and acting all amateurish. Back to square one. Baseless? They had signed contracts then they proceeded with their league then the Koreans broke their contracts. Yes and that had me in favor of NASL. But then Xeris accused SC2con for blocking FXO and MVP from participating. They may have poisoned the waters behind the scenes for all we know. It's sketchy as hell that literally every single Korean would pull out at the exact same time after the league had already started. It's not shocking that they would convince themselves that it was their own decision after they already acted. FXOBoss had already explained here on TL that sC didn't wish to participate for personal reasons when Xeris posted his allegations. And Boss is not getting pushed around by SC2con. Stopbeing paranoid, Xeris said himself he only had second hand information to go on...and that information turned out incorrect. But didn't sC go thru qualifiers for season 2? If he had reasons for not participating then why qualify for the season. That's what I don't understand.
This keeps being brought up; but remember that the qualifiers happened *before* the grand finals of the previous season, which is what soured the Koreans on participating in the future.
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On August 15 2011 06:22 Typhon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:38 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 05:32 Longshank wrote:On August 15 2011 05:21 wats0n wrote:On August 15 2011 05:18 Longshank wrote:On August 15 2011 05:10 wats0n wrote:On August 15 2011 05:08 Longshank wrote: aww, NASL almost had my sympathy but then had to go throw baseless allegations and acting all amateurish. Back to square one. Baseless? They had signed contracts then they proceeded with their league then the Koreans broke their contracts. Yes and that had me in favor of NASL. But then Xeris accused SC2con for blocking FXO and MVP from participating. They may have poisoned the waters behind the scenes for all we know. It's sketchy as hell that literally every single Korean would pull out at the exact same time after the league had already started. It's not shocking that they would convince themselves that it was their own decision after they already acted. FXOBoss had already explained here on TL that sC didn't wish to participate for personal reasons when Xeris posted his allegations. And Boss is not getting pushed around by SC2con. Stopbeing paranoid, Xeris said himself he only had second hand information to go on...and that information turned out incorrect. But didn't sC go thru qualifiers for season 2? If he had reasons for not participating then why qualify for the season. That's what I don't understand. This keeps being brought up; but remember that the qualifiers happened *before* the grand finals of the previous season, which is what soured the Koreans on participating in the future.
You are not driven away by the Finals and then afterwards sign contracts for participating in NASL2. That doesn't make sense at all.
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NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation.
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On August 15 2011 06:22 Typhon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:38 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 05:32 Longshank wrote:On August 15 2011 05:21 wats0n wrote:On August 15 2011 05:18 Longshank wrote:On August 15 2011 05:10 wats0n wrote:On August 15 2011 05:08 Longshank wrote: aww, NASL almost had my sympathy but then had to go throw baseless allegations and acting all amateurish. Back to square one. Baseless? They had signed contracts then they proceeded with their league then the Koreans broke their contracts. Yes and that had me in favor of NASL. But then Xeris accused SC2con for blocking FXO and MVP from participating. They may have poisoned the waters behind the scenes for all we know. It's sketchy as hell that literally every single Korean would pull out at the exact same time after the league had already started. It's not shocking that they would convince themselves that it was their own decision after they already acted. FXOBoss had already explained here on TL that sC didn't wish to participate for personal reasons when Xeris posted his allegations. And Boss is not getting pushed around by SC2con. Stopbeing paranoid, Xeris said himself he only had second hand information to go on...and that information turned out incorrect. But didn't sC go thru qualifiers for season 2? If he had reasons for not participating then why qualify for the season. That's what I don't understand. This keeps being brought up; but remember that the qualifiers happened *before* the grand finals of the previous season, which is what soured the Koreans on participating in the future.
Ok, if thats the case then why did they still go ahead and sign the contracts for season 2 after the grand finals had concluded.
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On August 15 2011 05:37 Barolt wrote: Just want to say that the MLG - NASL comparisons are way off base. Yes, MLG is a smaller prize pool, but it's 5k for 3 days(call it a week with travel and jet lag). NASL is 50k for 11 weeks of play, including practice time, waking up at odd hours, and the week of travel/jet lag. If you want to bring up the PuMa coming through the open bracket, look at the players he had to beat to do that, that's lottery type odds.
It's a huge time investment. Also, if the teams are as cash strapped as it sounds, it's not surprising they're reluctant to put more money into the NASL before they get money back out.(Contracts are right, NASL is doing nothing technically wrong here, but ask a homeless person to pay you for tomorrow night's supper before you feed them tonight)
This doesn't make any sense. If the teams required payoffs to compete then even staying in team houses in Seoul to compete in GSL would not be feasible. Teams need sponsors, not prize money, it is players that want prize money. Now if the Korean teams don't have the sponsorship to afford to go overseas then they should not have signed up, plain and simple. There is no more difficult for the Koreans to travel than there is for Europeans. Even the vast majority of North Americans would have to fly and reserve hotels unless they live in the general area. The nasl is also far more accommodating than the GSL and has made itself much more of an international league than as well, so it doesn't make sense for all of this criticism of NASL for not doing enough.
If it really comes down to sponsors and the Korean teams can't afford to send their players around then the natural consequence will be the decline of Korean teams and the greater role of foreign teams. Either more and more Korean players will join foreign teams because of the greater opportunity or the Korean teams will become the property of foreign owners. We already see this happening with puma, rain, complexity and fxo.
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On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote: NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation.
Using MLG Dallas defeats your own argument because after that fiasco, Sundance came out in public and aired all the 'dirty laundry' regarding what had happened. He explained exactly what the problems were, what caused them and what they were going to do to rectify it. He was very transparent with the fans. Sometimes the laundry needs to be aired out completely, its the only way it will get cleaned.
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On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote: NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation.
They aren't supposed to announce that the Korean players will not be participating? Just let people be surprised or something? Or are they supposed to announce it and not give any reason as to why, even though everyone will be asking why? If anything they would look even worse because people would start spreading rumors and guessing.
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Why do you keep comparing NASL to GSL ? I don't see what these leagues have in common.
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On August 15 2011 06:38 AlBundy wrote: Why do you keep comparing NASL to GSL ? I don't see what these leagues have in common. The letters S and L. Comparison pretty much ends there though
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How is any individual player going to talk out against sc2con when sc2con can outcast them from South Korean participation if they cross them. That's the only part about this where I find it hard to really 'confirm' anything. That's just like FXO is being blackmailed by a 'member of sc2con' this seems like the same kind of shenanigans as Kespa.
Between FXO, NASL, and TSL my faith doesn't lie with anything that comes out of sc2con.
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I do not understand why either one of these organizations are making so many public statements w/o coming to absolute conclusions with each other first. Every "issue" that i've seen in the sc2 progaming community seems to be a direct result of complete lack of professionalism and respect for one another, no matter the situation.
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Does this mean Artosis will be back for NASL season 2 ?
More seriously: that sucks. I hope we can still have some good Korean players in the NASL.
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-.- This whole thing is starting to be annoying and dramatic like the whole FD thing. It probably just boils down to a disagreement, and people can have opinons on what is actually fair. But the amount of bs this is generating, hate towards Korea especially, is unfounded.
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May be Korean teams are scared that their ace players will be lured away by foreign teams?
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I just want to know who's playing in NASL. Is there a list for that somewhere?
Get Tyler, Haypro, and Artosis back in it, and I'll still watch those guys.
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Wow this sure is confusing. Hard to know whats true and what not. But by the looks of things this seems to be a problem with NASL this time. :o
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On August 15 2011 06:38 AlBundy wrote: Why do you keep comparing NASL to GSL ? I don't see what these leagues have in common.
Well, Xeris post specificly said, that it was Mr. Chae that declined NASL's offer to pay 2000$ off of the korean teams travel expenses.. I have no idea how Mr. Chae is involved though
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On August 15 2011 07:09 ELA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 06:38 AlBundy wrote: Why do you keep comparing NASL to GSL ? I don't see what these leagues have in common. Well, Xeris post specificly said, that it was Mr. Chae that declined NASL's offer to pay 2000$ off of the korean teams travel expenses.. I have no idea how Mr. Chae is involved though
They pay 1000... the other 1000 comes directly out of the players prize money, its not the same.
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On August 15 2011 06:38 AlBundy wrote: Why do you keep comparing NASL to GSL ? I don't see what these leagues have in common.
Not sure if you were referring to me, but what I'm comparing are the difficulties for someone overseas to enter in and compete in these tournaments. People love the GSL even though it is nearly impossible for a foreigner to compete without a huge commitment of time and cash for travel and living expenses and yet people are hating the NASL for being too much of a burden on the Koreans when it is actually so much less than other leagues.
I just don't see how people can say that the nasl is not worth the burden when you get the chance for a code s prize pool. People say it sucks because the Koreans might fly over and get eliminated in the single elimination bracket. Well if that sucks then why don't the same people have a problem with GSL when Ret goes to play in code a, loses one series, wins nothing and has to wait a month before he would even be allowed to qualify again?
So the comparison is not between the leagues so much as it is between the way people perceive each league.
To be honest I think most of the hate is because NASL is based in the United States and most everyone hates the United States even when it comes to non political things such as gaming. I can't see any other way there is even a controversy over a group of players running away from already signed contracts.
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Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest
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alot of things involving NASL seem to be very amateurish.
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I have a few questions about the whole situation
a) Were the contracts for NASL participation in Korean? And even if they were in Korean was a legitimate translator used to ensure proper translation?
b) Is it possible for NASL to release a sample contract to the public?
c) Who exactly has NASL been talking to? Mr. Chae? The individual teams? They seem to be changing their story every time a statement comes out? :[
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On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote: Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest
sc2 con has no power. it's just a misconception created by negative image carried over from kespa and NASL's accusation which has been proven fasle by everyone.
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On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote: Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest
Based on what?
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On August 15 2011 06:37 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote: NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation. Using MLG Dallas defeats your own argument because after that fiasco, Sundance came out in public and aired all the 'dirty laundry' regarding what had happened. He explained exactly what the problems were, what caused them and what they were going to do to rectify it. He was very transparent with the fans. Sometimes the laundry needs to be aired out completely, its the only way it will get cleaned.
You can do that if you place the blame squarely on yourself, which is what they did after Dallas. If you recall, Sundance himself was ridiculed to pieces on these same forums when he suggested that people should buy more t-shirts in order to get a decent SC2 competition going.
Then after Dallas, MLG came clean, placed the blame squarely on themselves, compensated everyone that had paid up to that point, and pretty much everyone came to respect MLG and Sundance for that, to a point where Sundance is now a total hero and everyone is counting down the days till the next MLG event. They actually improved.
NASL on the other hand has a history of fuck-ups, not accepting responsibility for them, utterly terrible PR, and a general air of 'what are you whining about, this is only our first season, we are allowed to deliver a sub-par product'. That doesn't get you much credit with your fans/consumers.
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On the next episode: Mr. Chae finds out that Xeris is sleeping with his wife, Coach Lee transforms TSL into a male escort service, and FXO reveals that the head of SC2CON is none other than the lovechild of Artosis and Kim Jong il!
Stay tuned
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On August 15 2011 07:16 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 06:37 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote: NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation. Using MLG Dallas defeats your own argument because after that fiasco, Sundance came out in public and aired all the 'dirty laundry' regarding what had happened. He explained exactly what the problems were, what caused them and what they were going to do to rectify it. He was very transparent with the fans. Sometimes the laundry needs to be aired out completely, its the only way it will get cleaned. You can do that if you place the blame squarely on yourself, which is what they did after Dallas. If you recall, Sundance himself was ridiculed to pieces on these same forums when he suggested that people should buy more t-shirts in order to get a decent SC2 competition going. Then after Dallas, MLG came clean, placed the blame squarely on themselves, compensated everyone that had paid up to that point, and pretty much everyone came to respect MLG and Sundance for that, to a point where Sundance is now a total hero and everyone is counting down the days till the next MLG event. They actually improved. NASL on the other hand has a history of fuck-ups, not accepting responsibility for them, utterly terrible PR, and a general air of 'what are you whining about, this is only our first season, we are allowed to deliver a sub-par product'. That doesn't get you much credit with your fans/consumers.
Why do people keep bringing up NASL's poor production from first season?
So they had poor production and technical problems so that means its ok to sign a contract and then bail out over a week later?
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On August 15 2011 07:27 macil222 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:16 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 06:37 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote: NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation. Using MLG Dallas defeats your own argument because after that fiasco, Sundance came out in public and aired all the 'dirty laundry' regarding what had happened. He explained exactly what the problems were, what caused them and what they were going to do to rectify it. He was very transparent with the fans. Sometimes the laundry needs to be aired out completely, its the only way it will get cleaned. You can do that if you place the blame squarely on yourself, which is what they did after Dallas. If you recall, Sundance himself was ridiculed to pieces on these same forums when he suggested that people should buy more t-shirts in order to get a decent SC2 competition going. Then after Dallas, MLG came clean, placed the blame squarely on themselves, compensated everyone that had paid up to that point, and pretty much everyone came to respect MLG and Sundance for that, to a point where Sundance is now a total hero and everyone is counting down the days till the next MLG event. They actually improved. NASL on the other hand has a history of fuck-ups, not accepting responsibility for them, utterly terrible PR, and a general air of 'what are you whining about, this is only our first season, we are allowed to deliver a sub-par product'. That doesn't get you much credit with your fans/consumers. Why do people keep bringing up NASL's poor production from first season? So they had poor production and technical problems so that means its ok to sign a contract and then bail out over a week later?
I didn't say that at all. I was simply referring to the different ways you can deal with problems, you either start blaming everyone else or you accept (at least part of) the blame yourself. NASL has been utilizing option 1 too much (even here, by dragging teams into it that had 0 to do with it), while MLG is squarely in the 2nd group now and people love them for it.
As for this whole debacle, most of the drama threads on TL over the last few weeks went from 'omg the TSL coach is a bastard' to 'I always knew the TSL coach was a cute little puppy', with the entire community viewpoint switching around each time there was a new bit of information. Best thing we can all do is just shut up about it for now until we actually have some explanation from the korean side for what happened.
There's a big chance that the NASL is in the right here for a change, but I'd rather hold off judgement until there's you know, actual information.
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So to sum it all up there are two possible outcomes....1) NASL dies from lack of good content. 2) it becomes the NAsl (maybe half european) and it encourages local players aspiring to be progamers to actually put effort in seeing as the bar has been significantly lowered for them to compete.
Either way some easy money up for grabs if puma etc do still play. For at least the next 2 seasons. While I would love NASL to be a success I just fear for its ability to come out on top of all the drama and issues.
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On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote: Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what?
There is 0 korean participation currently. you mean to tell me that not a single korean doesnt want to participate in the NASL (i mean not the most proffesional tournament but still). Fly out one weeeknd for a round of 32 for a shot at GSL code s prize pool.
The most important question is why is there such heavy korean attendance at MLG and none for NASL. MLG is a three day long battle of non-stop games with a significantly smaller prize pool.
KoreaCon has to be blocking player participation since most koreans would love the chance to participate. Also what about Assembly NADA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states.
That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations.
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I don't like drama. I wish I knew what SC2Con actually did, and why NASL would make these assumptions about them with apparently nothing to base them on (the first part made sense, the second seems very weird.)
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On August 14 2011 21:57 Rubber wrote:The lack of effective communication around this issue is unfortunate 
The first reply, best reply, and it applies to the whole sc2 scene whether it be player to player, player to organization, or organization to organization, and it's an issue that revolves around the internet and being so far apart one from the other.
People need to stop twisting things to be heard more favourably, I'm sure no one outright lied, but a slight twist of the truth, such as someone saying "MVP wants to join the NASL" instead of "I'll talk to MVP about joining NASL" and then MVP not joining NASL results in some false assumptions. As gamers and with the pressure of the super fast moving e-sports scene we often try to just step ahead, making logical assumptions of what's going to happen. However, when they don't turn out the way you thought, things fall apart pretty quick, as all of these stacked assumptions fall through.
To be honest I think that no Korean's in the NASL could really help them out. Though I really try to stay as positive as I can about the foreign SC2 scene, and I've reflected that attitude in any casts and communications with or about Koreans, having them stomp us in all of our own tournaments can get heavy on the heart and mind.
Back to the original topic, everyone needs to just state things as they are, stop trying to jump the gun, things aren't happening THAT fast, and move forward through mutual agreements instead of these do or die negotiations...
Katu
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Well. If anyone calms down and looks at the few facts we have got, nearly everything looks reasonable for me....
1. Korean Teams have big money issues and can't afford sending (even multiple) players to NASL. (500$ per player might be very high, even if you are not sure if you could afford traveling to the finals). - ok, clear by now
2. NASL can't or don't want to afford paying all traveling costs. - It's their buisness, their decision, if it's wise or not only time will tell
So because of that koreans don't want to participate anymore. OK just the logical consequence of point 1 & 2!
BUT the fact that most of the korean teams signed a contract for season two around july 25th/26th blows up my mind. This action at such a time makes absolutely NO SENSE AT ALL! If I have a problem like money issues, then I go into negotations to fix it BEFORE I sign a contract. That's what you even learn in "buisness for beginners - stupid edition". So I'm waiting for an explanation from the korean side. Another thing that would be interesting: Who signed these contracts? The Players? The team managers??? Mr. Chae(little joke)?????? How did you get them signed? obviously per post? doesn't take it a long time shipping from korea to the U.S.? When were they sent, when were they signed? Maybe even before the finals of S1? How did you got contact to Mr. Chae or other representatives of the Teams? Maybe the problems lies here! I see that NASL doesn't want to make this such an issue, but I must admit, even if they are the victim of this shit, they have been making it a drama!
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On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote: Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? There is 0 korean participation currently. you mean to tell me that not a single korean doesnt want to participate in the NASL (i mean not the most proffesional tournament but still). Fly out one weeeknd for a round of 32 for a shot at GSL code s prize pool. The most important question is why is there such heavy korean attendance at MLG and none for NASL. MLG is a three day long battle of non-stop games with a significantly smaller prize pool. KoreaCon has to be blocking player participation since most koreans would love the chance to participate. Also what about Assembly NADA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations. Cause literally none of the Koreans had to pay to go to mlg, either being covered by the exchange program or other sponsors, and most Koreans are in a financial situation where they can't pay 2000+ dollars to maybe lose money? Seems like you're trying to find drama where there is none.
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On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote: Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? There is 0 korean participation currently. you mean to tell me that not a single korean doesnt want to participate in the NASL (i mean not the most proffesional tournament but still). Fly out one weeeknd for a round of 32 for a shot at GSL code s prize pool. The most important question is why is there such heavy korean attendance at MLG and none for NASL. MLG is a three day long battle of non-stop games with a significantly smaller prize pool. KoreaCon has to be blocking player participation since most koreans would love the chance to participate. Also what about Assembly NADA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations. Or, perhaps you haven't thought of this. MLG pays for the entire trip. NASL does not. Maybe thats the reason, no..?
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On August 15 2011 07:35 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:27 macil222 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:16 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 06:37 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote: NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation. Using MLG Dallas defeats your own argument because after that fiasco, Sundance came out in public and aired all the 'dirty laundry' regarding what had happened. He explained exactly what the problems were, what caused them and what they were going to do to rectify it. He was very transparent with the fans. Sometimes the laundry needs to be aired out completely, its the only way it will get cleaned. You can do that if you place the blame squarely on yourself, which is what they did after Dallas. If you recall, Sundance himself was ridiculed to pieces on these same forums when he suggested that people should buy more t-shirts in order to get a decent SC2 competition going. Then after Dallas, MLG came clean, placed the blame squarely on themselves, compensated everyone that had paid up to that point, and pretty much everyone came to respect MLG and Sundance for that, to a point where Sundance is now a total hero and everyone is counting down the days till the next MLG event. They actually improved. NASL on the other hand has a history of fuck-ups, not accepting responsibility for them, utterly terrible PR, and a general air of 'what are you whining about, this is only our first season, we are allowed to deliver a sub-par product'. That doesn't get you much credit with your fans/consumers. Why do people keep bringing up NASL's poor production from first season? So they had poor production and technical problems so that means its ok to sign a contract and then bail out over a week later? I didn't say that at all. I was simply referring to the different ways you can deal with problems, you either start blaming everyone else or you accept (at least part of) the blame yourself. NASL has been utilizing option 1 too much (even here, by dragging teams into it that had 0 to do with it), while MLG is squarely in the 2nd group now and people love them for it. As for this whole debacle, most of the drama threads on TL over the last few weeks went from 'omg the TSL coach is a bastard' to 'I always knew the TSL coach was a cute little puppy', with the entire community viewpoint switching around each time there was a new bit of information. Best thing we can all do is just shut up about it for now until we actually have some explanation from the korean side for what happened. There's a big chance that the NASL is in the right here for a change, but I'd rather hold off judgement until there's you know, actual information.
What you're all forgetting is another big reason MLG became amazing after Dallas was because of Korean participation.
On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote: Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? DA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations.
LOL if you trust Xeris' word blindly because he 'isn't some random.' He's one of the sketchiest people in SC2 and values money/power over anything else. This is the guy who wouldn't return seats to two fans who had earned them at MLG because he thought he was more important than them.
Oh and maybe you should read this:
Total of 7 teams withdrew from NASL. Only 3 of them are in S2CON.
Yeah, you're wrong fanboy.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 15 2011 08:09 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:35 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 07:27 macil222 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:16 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 06:37 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote: NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation. Using MLG Dallas defeats your own argument because after that fiasco, Sundance came out in public and aired all the 'dirty laundry' regarding what had happened. He explained exactly what the problems were, what caused them and what they were going to do to rectify it. He was very transparent with the fans. Sometimes the laundry needs to be aired out completely, its the only way it will get cleaned. You can do that if you place the blame squarely on yourself, which is what they did after Dallas. If you recall, Sundance himself was ridiculed to pieces on these same forums when he suggested that people should buy more t-shirts in order to get a decent SC2 competition going. Then after Dallas, MLG came clean, placed the blame squarely on themselves, compensated everyone that had paid up to that point, and pretty much everyone came to respect MLG and Sundance for that, to a point where Sundance is now a total hero and everyone is counting down the days till the next MLG event. They actually improved. NASL on the other hand has a history of fuck-ups, not accepting responsibility for them, utterly terrible PR, and a general air of 'what are you whining about, this is only our first season, we are allowed to deliver a sub-par product'. That doesn't get you much credit with your fans/consumers. Why do people keep bringing up NASL's poor production from first season? So they had poor production and technical problems so that means its ok to sign a contract and then bail out over a week later? I didn't say that at all. I was simply referring to the different ways you can deal with problems, you either start blaming everyone else or you accept (at least part of) the blame yourself. NASL has been utilizing option 1 too much (even here, by dragging teams into it that had 0 to do with it), while MLG is squarely in the 2nd group now and people love them for it. As for this whole debacle, most of the drama threads on TL over the last few weeks went from 'omg the TSL coach is a bastard' to 'I always knew the TSL coach was a cute little puppy', with the entire community viewpoint switching around each time there was a new bit of information. Best thing we can all do is just shut up about it for now until we actually have some explanation from the korean side for what happened. There's a big chance that the NASL is in the right here for a change, but I'd rather hold off judgement until there's you know, actual information. What you're all forgetting is another big reason MLG became amazing after Dallas was because of Korean participation. Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote: Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? DA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations. LOL if you trust Xeris' word blindly because he 'isn't some random.' He's one of the sketchiest people in SC2 and values money/power over anything else. This is the guy who wouldn't return seats to two fans who had earned them at MLG because he thought he was more important than them. I'd say that contributes to 30% of it. A lot of it came from efforts by the MLG staff
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On August 15 2011 08:13 nitdkim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:09 Ocedic wrote:On August 15 2011 07:35 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 07:27 macil222 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:16 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 06:37 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote: NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation. Using MLG Dallas defeats your own argument because after that fiasco, Sundance came out in public and aired all the 'dirty laundry' regarding what had happened. He explained exactly what the problems were, what caused them and what they were going to do to rectify it. He was very transparent with the fans. Sometimes the laundry needs to be aired out completely, its the only way it will get cleaned. You can do that if you place the blame squarely on yourself, which is what they did after Dallas. If you recall, Sundance himself was ridiculed to pieces on these same forums when he suggested that people should buy more t-shirts in order to get a decent SC2 competition going. Then after Dallas, MLG came clean, placed the blame squarely on themselves, compensated everyone that had paid up to that point, and pretty much everyone came to respect MLG and Sundance for that, to a point where Sundance is now a total hero and everyone is counting down the days till the next MLG event. They actually improved. NASL on the other hand has a history of fuck-ups, not accepting responsibility for them, utterly terrible PR, and a general air of 'what are you whining about, this is only our first season, we are allowed to deliver a sub-par product'. That doesn't get you much credit with your fans/consumers. Why do people keep bringing up NASL's poor production from first season? So they had poor production and technical problems so that means its ok to sign a contract and then bail out over a week later? I didn't say that at all. I was simply referring to the different ways you can deal with problems, you either start blaming everyone else or you accept (at least part of) the blame yourself. NASL has been utilizing option 1 too much (even here, by dragging teams into it that had 0 to do with it), while MLG is squarely in the 2nd group now and people love them for it. As for this whole debacle, most of the drama threads on TL over the last few weeks went from 'omg the TSL coach is a bastard' to 'I always knew the TSL coach was a cute little puppy', with the entire community viewpoint switching around each time there was a new bit of information. Best thing we can all do is just shut up about it for now until we actually have some explanation from the korean side for what happened. There's a big chance that the NASL is in the right here for a change, but I'd rather hold off judgement until there's you know, actual information. What you're all forgetting is another big reason MLG became amazing after Dallas was because of Korean participation. On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote: Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? DA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations. LOL if you trust Xeris' word blindly because he 'isn't some random.' He's one of the sketchiest people in SC2 and values money/power over anything else. This is the guy who wouldn't return seats to two fans who had earned them at MLG because he thought he was more important than them. I'd say that contributes to 30% of it. A lot of it came from efforts by the MLG staff
Pulling arbitrary numbers out of your ass. Sorry but ultimately for most viewers, watching the highest level games matter. It was the one saving grace of NASL's season 1 finals, which had horrible production and legendarily long wait times between matches.
On August 15 2011 05:46 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:39 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 05:36 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:28 Dexx wrote:On August 15 2011 05:27 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote: My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff? season 2 qualifier began when season 1 wasn't over yet. No one at that time know how NASL handled stuffs. What did NASL do wrong after Season1? 1) The LAN finals were awful. Cost players lots of money to fly over (since they only provided $500) and play 1 bo3. 2) Asking another $500 to play in season 2 while not paying back $250 from season 1 yet (yeah i know the contract, it's still the truth that they have to put $750 out) Let's try and be factually correct please. From what I read, the teams that paid their deposit the first time around had the option to simply up their depost. If they deposited 250 USD in S1, and are playing S2 again, they'd only have to wire another 250 USD over, not an additional 500. (500 still is a ridiculous amount tho) If it makes sure that players show up for their matches as scheduled, I think 500 is fine. Actually 500 is probably not enough as evidenced in S1 when there were multiple times that people didn't show up and highly inconvenienced their opponents, especially the korean players, who were already playing at 4am and then asked to wait sometimes for up to 4 hours for the opponents who still didn't show up.
A second deposit upon a first deposit is sketchy as shit, and not reasonable at all. The only reason a deposit should be increased is for people who actually violated the terms in season 1. If my apartment managers doubled my deposit after my first lease was up, yeah I'd get the fuck out of here.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 15 2011 08:08 Midgetman101 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote: Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? There is 0 korean participation currently. you mean to tell me that not a single korean doesnt want to participate in the NASL (i mean not the most proffesional tournament but still). Fly out one weeeknd for a round of 32 for a shot at GSL code s prize pool. The most important question is why is there such heavy korean attendance at MLG and none for NASL. MLG is a three day long battle of non-stop games with a significantly smaller prize pool. KoreaCon has to be blocking player participation since most koreans would love the chance to participate. Also what about Assembly NADA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations. Or, perhaps you haven't thought of this. MLG pays for the entire trip. NASL does not. Maybe thats the reason, no..?
Then perhaps they would have thought of that before signing a contract stating they would be participating AND coming if they made it to the final. It also probably wouldn't have come all at once from ALL of them.
Both sides are to blame and we will probably never know the true story.
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On August 15 2011 04:43 mbr2321 wrote: I'm not suggesting any kind of Korean coverup, but consider that PlayXP is a Korean site that almost certainly has a Korean bias. I still think that this isn't the whole story, and that NASL wouldn't accuse anyone of anything if it was completely baseless: that's just bad business.
Right because all Koreans are just one mass horde. They don't have individuality or free will like us enlightened Westerners. Maybe you should get some reading comprehension:
Total of 7 teams withdrew from NASL. Only 3 of them are in S2CON.
Or did the other 4 teams withdraw because other Koreans did, and they lacked the free thinking to be able to make decisions for themselves?
On August 15 2011 08:22 Vendor wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 15 2011 08:08 Midgetman101 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote: Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? There is 0 korean participation currently. you mean to tell me that not a single korean doesnt want to participate in the NASL (i mean not the most proffesional tournament but still). Fly out one weeeknd for a round of 32 for a shot at GSL code s prize pool. The most important question is why is there such heavy korean attendance at MLG and none for NASL. MLG is a three day long battle of non-stop games with a significantly smaller prize pool. KoreaCon has to be blocking player participation since most koreans would love the chance to participate. Also what about Assembly NADA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations. Or, perhaps you haven't thought of this. MLG pays for the entire trip. NASL does not. Maybe thats the reason, no..? Then perhaps they would have thought of that before signing a contract stating they would be participating AND coming if they made it to the final. It also probably wouldn't have come all at once from ALL of them. Both sides are to blame and we will probably never know the true story.
Only one side lied to Team Liquid posters to try to get them on his side. Hint: Xeris
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On August 15 2011 08:17 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:13 nitdkim wrote:On August 15 2011 08:09 Ocedic wrote:On August 15 2011 07:35 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 07:27 macil222 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:16 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 06:37 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote: NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation. Using MLG Dallas defeats your own argument because after that fiasco, Sundance came out in public and aired all the 'dirty laundry' regarding what had happened. He explained exactly what the problems were, what caused them and what they were going to do to rectify it. He was very transparent with the fans. Sometimes the laundry needs to be aired out completely, its the only way it will get cleaned. You can do that if you place the blame squarely on yourself, which is what they did after Dallas. If you recall, Sundance himself was ridiculed to pieces on these same forums when he suggested that people should buy more t-shirts in order to get a decent SC2 competition going. Then after Dallas, MLG came clean, placed the blame squarely on themselves, compensated everyone that had paid up to that point, and pretty much everyone came to respect MLG and Sundance for that, to a point where Sundance is now a total hero and everyone is counting down the days till the next MLG event. They actually improved. NASL on the other hand has a history of fuck-ups, not accepting responsibility for them, utterly terrible PR, and a general air of 'what are you whining about, this is only our first season, we are allowed to deliver a sub-par product'. That doesn't get you much credit with your fans/consumers. Why do people keep bringing up NASL's poor production from first season? So they had poor production and technical problems so that means its ok to sign a contract and then bail out over a week later? I didn't say that at all. I was simply referring to the different ways you can deal with problems, you either start blaming everyone else or you accept (at least part of) the blame yourself. NASL has been utilizing option 1 too much (even here, by dragging teams into it that had 0 to do with it), while MLG is squarely in the 2nd group now and people love them for it. As for this whole debacle, most of the drama threads on TL over the last few weeks went from 'omg the TSL coach is a bastard' to 'I always knew the TSL coach was a cute little puppy', with the entire community viewpoint switching around each time there was a new bit of information. Best thing we can all do is just shut up about it for now until we actually have some explanation from the korean side for what happened. There's a big chance that the NASL is in the right here for a change, but I'd rather hold off judgement until there's you know, actual information. What you're all forgetting is another big reason MLG became amazing after Dallas was because of Korean participation. On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote: Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? DA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations. LOL if you trust Xeris' word blindly because he 'isn't some random.' He's one of the sketchiest people in SC2 and values money/power over anything else. This is the guy who wouldn't return seats to two fans who had earned them at MLG because he thought he was more important than them. I'd say that contributes to 30% of it. A lot of it came from efforts by the MLG staff Pulling arbitrary numbers out of your ass. Sorry but ultimately for most viewers, watching the highest level games matter. It was the one saving grace of NASL's season 1 finals, which had horrible production and legendarily long wait times between matches. Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 05:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 05:39 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 05:36 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:28 Dexx wrote:On August 15 2011 05:27 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote: My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff? season 2 qualifier began when season 1 wasn't over yet. No one at that time know how NASL handled stuffs. What did NASL do wrong after Season1? 1) The LAN finals were awful. Cost players lots of money to fly over (since they only provided $500) and play 1 bo3. 2) Asking another $500 to play in season 2 while not paying back $250 from season 1 yet (yeah i know the contract, it's still the truth that they have to put $750 out) Let's try and be factually correct please. From what I read, the teams that paid their deposit the first time around had the option to simply up their depost. If they deposited 250 USD in S1, and are playing S2 again, they'd only have to wire another 250 USD over, not an additional 500. (500 still is a ridiculous amount tho) If it makes sure that players show up for their matches as scheduled, I think 500 is fine. Actually 500 is probably not enough as evidenced in S1 when there were multiple times that people didn't show up and highly inconvenienced their opponents, especially the korean players, who were already playing at 4am and then asked to wait sometimes for up to 4 hours for the opponents who still didn't show up. A second deposit upon a first deposit is sketchy as shit, and not reasonable at all. The only reason a deposit should be increased is for people who actually violated the terms in season 1. If my apartment managers doubled my deposit after my first lease was up, yeah I'd get the fuck out of here.
What if the reason your apartment manager increased the deposit was because of alot of your neighbors (not you, I'm saying your neighbors) trashing their places, the owners having to pay for repairs losing money because of it (even with the deposits thrown in) and the owners of the building saying screw that, raise the deposits for everybody, we're not taking any chances on getting screwed again. Yeah it sucks for you and yes you certainly have the right to leave after the lease is up. But can you really blame the owners for protecting themselves against losing money?
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On August 15 2011 03:26 Xeris wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote: Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON. Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark.
Why did you make assumptions to begin with? It's not like the public was clamoring for you to pin someone to blame. Your post could literally have been "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL" and all this shit could have been avoided. Instead what you did was basically libel in an attempt to absolve yourself of all responsibility.
On August 15 2011 08:26 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:17 Ocedic wrote:On August 15 2011 08:13 nitdkim wrote:On August 15 2011 08:09 Ocedic wrote:On August 15 2011 07:35 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 07:27 macil222 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:16 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 06:37 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 06:30 Barolt wrote: NASL receives 'undue hate' because they air their dirty laundry in public every time. Look at organizations like MLG and GSL. How often do you see drama in here with regards to them? That's why I see NASL as a second class league. Even when MLG Dallas was a terrible experience, they gave away free HD, and they catered to their customer as much as possible to try to clean up their reputation. Using MLG Dallas defeats your own argument because after that fiasco, Sundance came out in public and aired all the 'dirty laundry' regarding what had happened. He explained exactly what the problems were, what caused them and what they were going to do to rectify it. He was very transparent with the fans. Sometimes the laundry needs to be aired out completely, its the only way it will get cleaned. You can do that if you place the blame squarely on yourself, which is what they did after Dallas. If you recall, Sundance himself was ridiculed to pieces on these same forums when he suggested that people should buy more t-shirts in order to get a decent SC2 competition going. Then after Dallas, MLG came clean, placed the blame squarely on themselves, compensated everyone that had paid up to that point, and pretty much everyone came to respect MLG and Sundance for that, to a point where Sundance is now a total hero and everyone is counting down the days till the next MLG event. They actually improved. NASL on the other hand has a history of fuck-ups, not accepting responsibility for them, utterly terrible PR, and a general air of 'what are you whining about, this is only our first season, we are allowed to deliver a sub-par product'. That doesn't get you much credit with your fans/consumers. Why do people keep bringing up NASL's poor production from first season? So they had poor production and technical problems so that means its ok to sign a contract and then bail out over a week later? I didn't say that at all. I was simply referring to the different ways you can deal with problems, you either start blaming everyone else or you accept (at least part of) the blame yourself. NASL has been utilizing option 1 too much (even here, by dragging teams into it that had 0 to do with it), while MLG is squarely in the 2nd group now and people love them for it. As for this whole debacle, most of the drama threads on TL over the last few weeks went from 'omg the TSL coach is a bastard' to 'I always knew the TSL coach was a cute little puppy', with the entire community viewpoint switching around each time there was a new bit of information. Best thing we can all do is just shut up about it for now until we actually have some explanation from the korean side for what happened. There's a big chance that the NASL is in the right here for a change, but I'd rather hold off judgement until there's you know, actual information. What you're all forgetting is another big reason MLG became amazing after Dallas was because of Korean participation. On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote: Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? DA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations. LOL if you trust Xeris' word blindly because he 'isn't some random.' He's one of the sketchiest people in SC2 and values money/power over anything else. This is the guy who wouldn't return seats to two fans who had earned them at MLG because he thought he was more important than them. I'd say that contributes to 30% of it. A lot of it came from efforts by the MLG staff Pulling arbitrary numbers out of your ass. Sorry but ultimately for most viewers, watching the highest level games matter. It was the one saving grace of NASL's season 1 finals, which had horrible production and legendarily long wait times between matches. On August 15 2011 05:46 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 05:39 Derez wrote:On August 15 2011 05:36 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:28 Dexx wrote:On August 15 2011 05:27 canikizu wrote:On August 15 2011 05:25 Dexx wrote: My questions are:
1. Why did so many Koreans take part in the qualifiers, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
2. Why did all Koreans sign the contracts for NASL 2, when they "independently" did not want to take part in NASL 2?
3.Why did all Koreans mysteriously withdraw at the same time for the same reason independently?
4. Why do the Koreans behind this think Westerners are that stupid not to call the bluff? season 2 qualifier began when season 1 wasn't over yet. No one at that time know how NASL handled stuffs. What did NASL do wrong after Season1? 1) The LAN finals were awful. Cost players lots of money to fly over (since they only provided $500) and play 1 bo3. 2) Asking another $500 to play in season 2 while not paying back $250 from season 1 yet (yeah i know the contract, it's still the truth that they have to put $750 out) Let's try and be factually correct please. From what I read, the teams that paid their deposit the first time around had the option to simply up their depost. If they deposited 250 USD in S1, and are playing S2 again, they'd only have to wire another 250 USD over, not an additional 500. (500 still is a ridiculous amount tho) If it makes sure that players show up for their matches as scheduled, I think 500 is fine. Actually 500 is probably not enough as evidenced in S1 when there were multiple times that people didn't show up and highly inconvenienced their opponents, especially the korean players, who were already playing at 4am and then asked to wait sometimes for up to 4 hours for the opponents who still didn't show up. A second deposit upon a first deposit is sketchy as shit, and not reasonable at all. The only reason a deposit should be increased is for people who actually violated the terms in season 1. If my apartment managers doubled my deposit after my first lease was up, yeah I'd get the fuck out of here. What if the reason your apartment manager increased the deposit was because of alot of your neighbors (not you, I'm saying your neighbors) trashing their places, the owners having to pay for repairs losing money because of it (even with the deposits thrown in) and the owners of the building saying screw that, raise the deposits for everybody, we're not taking any chances on getting screwed again. Yeah it sucks for you and yes you certainly have the right to leave after the lease is up. But can you really blame the owners for protecting themselves against losing money?
If they increased the security deposit for new renters, that would make sense. Or for returning renters who did trash the place (in real life they wouldn't be allowed back, but in NASL-analogy people who WO'd first season are welcomed back) that would also make sense.
But if I played for a full season with no issues, why am I being punished? And if they're raising the deposit for financial reasons, then that's basically a ponzi scheme, using season 2's money to pay for season 1.
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It's always a race to put your spin out first. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day who was right or wrong, the result is the same. The Korean teams will continue to have the most fans and best players, while NASL will struggle to gain any traction.
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On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote: Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? There is 0 korean participation currently. you mean to tell me that not a single korean doesnt want to participate in the NASL (i mean not the most proffesional tournament but still). Fly out one weeeknd for a round of 32 for a shot at GSL code s prize pool. The most important question is why is there such heavy korean attendance at MLG and none for NASL. MLG is a three day long battle of non-stop games with a significantly smaller prize pool. KoreaCon has to be blocking player participation since most koreans would love the chance to participate. Also what about Assembly NADA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations.
Says who? And it isn't just "one weekend" when you have to dedicate quite a bit of time for the rest of the season.
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On August 15 2011 08:27 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 03:26 Xeris wrote:On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote: Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON. Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark. Why did you make assumptions to begin with? It's not like the public was clamoring for you to pin someone to blame. Your post could literally have been "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL" and all this shit could have been avoided. Instead what you did was basically libel in an attempt to absolve yourself of all responsibility.
Ok lets say he did what you say and just said "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL". Do you really think that the fans would have said, 'Oh, ok NASL thats fine, we don't want to know WHY they aren't playing" The fans would be calling for Xeris head on a stake and demanding to know what happened.
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Well despite all of the drama and who know what that is going on, the way I see it is this....
NASL players have to participate in a ten week qualifying league and playoffs where you have to play your matches at 4 am for Koreans - and they have to pay a deposit to do this.
Then if you qualify, you have to fly all the way to the US for potentially one Bo3 - with the league only barely covering your expenses getting there - taking it out of your prize money.
Then the tournament is won by someone who went through an 'Open Tournament' that was ran in week 10, and gets poached from his Korean team.
If I was a Korean, I wouldn't be participating in the league either.. what exactly do you get out of it? I would just wait until the Open Tournament and do the same Puma did...
It sucks for the fans who want to watch the games, it sucks for NASL who will likely get less viewers and revenue, but the league and format should support the players as well - and give rewards / incentive to compete.
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I love how everybody just eats up what was said instead of actually trying to read between the lines.
Everything said is always going to be PR based. EVERYTHING. That said, Pr is about positioning. And the truth probably lies somewhere in between.
This phrase comes to mind.
Everybody wants peace but secretly prepares for war. In other words, its best to secure your image but it is natural to positon yourself accordingly to acquire the most benefit.
This is a perfect example of that. Who knows what to believe.
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Again, somehow NASL comes out looking bad. Unlucky.
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I dunno it just seems like every time the Koreans have this kind of childish super emotional attitude towards things with these blatant blame shifting things. I mean it just seems like one guy does something and then the rest just blindly follow or they have their own secret meetings and then later pretend like they all decided the same thing independently.
I mean I know it has already been said but why should NASL care if the Koreans don't want to participate, I mean I know there is all the contractual talk but it is a NA league.they probably have more than enough people hoping to get in. Koreans have this superiority complex which is deserved in some ways but come on you have a chance to win 100,000 dollars and you are going to squabble over 1 traveling arrangement to a tournament and you don't have to go through ridiculous qualifying to even have a shot. I mean I understand playing with ping is rough but I mean come on it is a 1 series weekly.
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On August 15 2011 08:32 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:27 Ocedic wrote:On August 15 2011 03:26 Xeris wrote:On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote: Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON. Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark. Why did you make assumptions to begin with? It's not like the public was clamoring for you to pin someone to blame. Your post could literally have been "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL" and all this shit could have been avoided. Instead what you did was basically libel in an attempt to absolve yourself of all responsibility. Ok lets say he did what you say and just said "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL". Do you really think that the fans would have said, 'Oh, ok NASL thats fine, we don't want to know WHY they aren't playing" The fans would be calling for Xeris head on a stake and demanding to know what happened.
"We are working on communicating with the koreans for the reasons why they left"
Would have solved a ton of drama, left it on the korean's plate, and satisfied a lot of people.
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It does leave the questions about FXO's withdrawal pretty much unanswered though...
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On August 15 2011 08:41 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:32 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 08:27 Ocedic wrote:On August 15 2011 03:26 Xeris wrote:On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote: Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON. Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark. Why did you make assumptions to begin with? It's not like the public was clamoring for you to pin someone to blame. Your post could literally have been "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL" and all this shit could have been avoided. Instead what you did was basically libel in an attempt to absolve yourself of all responsibility. Ok lets say he did what you say and just said "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL". Do you really think that the fans would have said, 'Oh, ok NASL thats fine, we don't want to know WHY they aren't playing" The fans would be calling for Xeris head on a stake and demanding to know what happened. "We are working on communicating with the koreans for the reasons why they left" Would have solved a ton of drama, left it on the korean's plate, and satisfied a lot of people.
Have to disagree with you on the satisfied a lot of people part. This community isn't known for their patience as you can probably tell. And plus if they had done that, whats to stop the Koreans from releasing their own statement saying, "Hey we tried to negotiate with NASL and we gave them a small, reasonable list of things that we wanted changed but they were unwilling to compromise so we pulled out. Don't blame us, blame them."
And if you are going to say that the Koreans wouldn't do that, that's exactly what happened with EG/Puma/Coach Lee, with Lee going to the press 1st and blindsiding EG with his statement.
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On August 15 2011 08:49 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:41 JinDesu wrote:On August 15 2011 08:32 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 08:27 Ocedic wrote:On August 15 2011 03:26 Xeris wrote:On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote: Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON. Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark. Why did you make assumptions to begin with? It's not like the public was clamoring for you to pin someone to blame. Your post could literally have been "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL" and all this shit could have been avoided. Instead what you did was basically libel in an attempt to absolve yourself of all responsibility. Ok lets say he did what you say and just said "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL". Do you really think that the fans would have said, 'Oh, ok NASL thats fine, we don't want to know WHY they aren't playing" The fans would be calling for Xeris head on a stake and demanding to know what happened. "We are working on communicating with the koreans for the reasons why they left" Would have solved a ton of drama, left it on the korean's plate, and satisfied a lot of people. Have to disagree with you on the satisfied a lot of people part. This community isn't known for their patience as you can probably tell. And plus if they had done that, whats to stop the Koreans from releasing their own statement saying, "Hey we tried to negotiate with NASL and we gave them a small, reasonable list of things that we wanted changed but they were unwilling to compromise so we pulled out. Don't blame us, blame them." And if you are going to say that the Koreans wouldn't do that, that's exactly what happened with EG/Puma/Coach Lee, with Lee going to the press 1st and blindsiding EG with his statement.
I'm still going to say the Koreans wouldn't do that. Not attacking them with your initial statement gives them the out so that they can put out a decent statement. We don't need drama. Leave issues like this behind the scenes, unless your sole intention was to call them out for it. Don't call them out and then come back saying "sorry I misinterpreted".
Not introducing drama with your first statement would definitely please more people than if you introduced drama. First of all, the people here who are biased towards koreans would not come into the thread insulting Xeris/NASL - there would be no reason for it. Second of all, the anti-koreans would be insulting the koreans either way. Third of all, the more impartial bunch would just say "ok, let's wait and see." At least doing it my way would eliminate one of the more vocal groups.
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On August 15 2011 08:43 RavenLoud wrote: It does leave the questions about FXO's withdrawal pretty much unanswered though... No it doesn't.
FXO means fOu. As said in the OP, sC told his coach he didn't want to play.
Answer answered.
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On August 15 2011 08:56 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:49 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 08:41 JinDesu wrote:On August 15 2011 08:32 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 08:27 Ocedic wrote:On August 15 2011 03:26 Xeris wrote:On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote: Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON. Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark. Why did you make assumptions to begin with? It's not like the public was clamoring for you to pin someone to blame. Your post could literally have been "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL" and all this shit could have been avoided. Instead what you did was basically libel in an attempt to absolve yourself of all responsibility. Ok lets say he did what you say and just said "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL". Do you really think that the fans would have said, 'Oh, ok NASL thats fine, we don't want to know WHY they aren't playing" The fans would be calling for Xeris head on a stake and demanding to know what happened. "We are working on communicating with the koreans for the reasons why they left" Would have solved a ton of drama, left it on the korean's plate, and satisfied a lot of people. Have to disagree with you on the satisfied a lot of people part. This community isn't known for their patience as you can probably tell. And plus if they had done that, whats to stop the Koreans from releasing their own statement saying, "Hey we tried to negotiate with NASL and we gave them a small, reasonable list of things that we wanted changed but they were unwilling to compromise so we pulled out. Don't blame us, blame them." And if you are going to say that the Koreans wouldn't do that, that's exactly what happened with EG/Puma/Coach Lee, with Lee going to the press 1st and blindsiding EG with his statement. I'm still going to say the Koreans wouldn't do that. Not attacking them with your initial statement gives them the out so that they can put out a decent statement. We don't need drama. Leave issues like this behind the scenes, unless your sole intention was to call them out for it. Don't call them out and then come back saying "sorry I misinterpreted". Not introducing drama with your first statement would definitely please more people than if you introduced drama. First of all, the people here who are biased towards koreans would not come into the thread insulting Xeris/NASL - there would be no reason for it. Second of all, the anti-koreans would be insulting the koreans either way. Third of all, the more impartial bunch would just say "ok, let's wait and see." At least doing it my way would eliminate one of the more vocal groups.
"First of all, the people here who are biased towards koreans would not come into the thread insulting Xeris/NASL, there would be no reason for it."- Do really think they would need a reason or that they wouldn't twist everything around to come up with a reason. The pro-Korean grp is just as irrational as the anti-korean grp.
"Second of all, the anti-koreans would be insulting the koreans either way."-I agree with you there.
Third of all, the more impartial bunch would just say "ok, let's wait and see."-That 3rd group is a very,very small part of the community
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On August 15 2011 08:39 SlipperySnake wrote: I dunno it just seems like every time the Koreans have this kind of childish super emotional attitude towards things with these blatant blame shifting things. I mean it just seems like one guy does something and then the rest just blindly follow or they have their own secret meetings and then later pretend like they all decided the same thing independently.
I mean I know it has already been said but why should NASL care if the Koreans don't want to participate, I mean I know there is all the contractual talk but it is a NA league.they probably have more than enough people hoping to get in. Koreans have this superiority complex which is deserved in some ways but come on you have a chance to win 100,000 dollars and you are going to squabble over 1 traveling arrangement to a tournament and you don't have to go through ridiculous qualifying to even have a shot. I mean I understand playing with ping is rough but I mean come on it is a 1 series weekly.
It isn't an "NA" league. I don't why so many people keep bringing this up.
They are more Europeans then NA players.
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On August 15 2011 09:23 Takezou wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:39 SlipperySnake wrote: I dunno it just seems like every time the Koreans have this kind of childish super emotional attitude towards things with these blatant blame shifting things. I mean it just seems like one guy does something and then the rest just blindly follow or they have their own secret meetings and then later pretend like they all decided the same thing independently.
I mean I know it has already been said but why should NASL care if the Koreans don't want to participate, I mean I know there is all the contractual talk but it is a NA league.they probably have more than enough people hoping to get in. Koreans have this superiority complex which is deserved in some ways but come on you have a chance to win 100,000 dollars and you are going to squabble over 1 traveling arrangement to a tournament and you don't have to go through ridiculous qualifying to even have a shot. I mean I understand playing with ping is rough but I mean come on it is a 1 series weekly. It isn't an "NA" league. I don't why so many people keep bringing this up. They are more Europeans then NA players.
yah seriously, i hate how people bring up "NORTH AMERICAN" all the time. it's just a fucking league based in north america, not a league only for north americans.
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As someone said before, it's really hard to know whats going on with this whole situation at the moment, if the korean teams don't want to participate that is fair enough but the only crime i see being committed is the miss use of "S2con" in the original statement. The allegations about S2con's involvement weren't really allegations, NASL was just expressing it's worry over rumours that s2con was preventing teams from participating not claiming that they were doing so. Don't give NASL too much undeserved slack over this obviously they are going to be concerned if they thought something was going on.
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Why did NASL blame SC2Con in the first place if they were not 100% sure of their role/involvement? This made SC2Con the target and victim of the community. Now that the coaches cleared SC2Con, I wonder how people will trust NASL news again when they blow up controversies like this. Edit: I respected SC2Con's position on the first thread when NASL first announced the Korean teams' withdrawal and waited for the response instead of jumping in the SC2Con hate bandwagon.
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On August 15 2011 09:30 iKlutz wrote: As someone said before, it's really hard to know whats going on with this whole situation at the moment, if the korean teams don't want to participate that is fair enough but the only crime i see being committed is the miss use of "S2con" in the original statement. The allegations about S2con's involvement weren't really allegations, NASL was just expressing it's worry over rumours that s2con was preventing teams from participating not claiming that they were doing so. Don't give NASL too much undeserved slack over this obviously they are going to be concerned if they thought something was going on.
What about breaching a signed contract and putting the other party in a severe situation? How can you, and so many people on this forum not see how terrible that is or see that as a "crime"?
NASL could be the worst run organization in the world; it doesn't mean that breaching a signed contract is all of a sudden alright, legally or morally (unless it was signed under some sort of duress, which is doubtful). The genius of this is that NASL doesn't really have any recourse, specific performance is out of the question, and a successful suit ending with a damage award would do nothing but hurt the scene, and make them even more hated. I can't even begin to imagine the ultimate damage to their image thanks to their mistake about SC2Con's involvement.
Again, you can't discount the situation that they were put in after the contracts were signed. NASL is obviously not 100% guilt free, but they are NOT the people going back on their SIGNED WORD.
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NASL are hopeless. You can't just go out saying shit that isnt true because this is what it causes.
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On August 15 2011 08:49 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:41 JinDesu wrote:On August 15 2011 08:32 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 08:27 Ocedic wrote:On August 15 2011 03:26 Xeris wrote:On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote: Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON. Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark. Why did you make assumptions to begin with? It's not like the public was clamoring for you to pin someone to blame. Your post could literally have been "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL" and all this shit could have been avoided. Instead what you did was basically libel in an attempt to absolve yourself of all responsibility. Ok lets say he did what you say and just said "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL". Do you really think that the fans would have said, 'Oh, ok NASL thats fine, we don't want to know WHY they aren't playing" The fans would be calling for Xeris head on a stake and demanding to know what happened. "We are working on communicating with the koreans for the reasons why they left" Would have solved a ton of drama, left it on the korean's plate, and satisfied a lot of people. Have to disagree with you on the satisfied a lot of people part. This community isn't known for their patience as you can probably tell. And plus if they had done that, whats to stop the Koreans from releasing their own statement saying, "Hey we tried to negotiate with NASL and we gave them a small, reasonable list of things that we wanted changed but they were unwilling to compromise so we pulled out. Don't blame us, blame them." And if you are going to say that the Koreans wouldn't do that, that's exactly what happened with EG/Puma/Coach Lee, with Lee going to the press 1st and blindsiding EG with his statement.
You're wrong. This community is known to eat up anything 'officially stated,' as shown by the reaction to Xeris' post full of false information to begin with. Fact is, if Xeris just simply stated he didn't know why it had occurred, who cares?
Tournament hosters are almost never blamed for people not showing up. COUNTLESS past events have had last minute player switches or no shows, and people usually say "That's too bad" or if they feel the need to blame someone, they blame the PLAYER (for not getting visa in time, etc.) So you're basically completely wrong.
EDIT: And finally, you're ignoring the fact that HE COMMITTED LIBEL. There is no excuse for it. Saying he 'needed to say something to satiate this forum' is NOT an excuse to lie and make up shit. The fact that you're acting as if Xeris is the victim here and he had no choice is nothing short of laughable. So you actually condone a policy of "Make up shit before we have all the information and post it as news" in lieu of having all the facts?
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On August 14 2011 22:01 exog wrote: Lol, this drama is starting to look like a bunch of clanleaders using big words and creating something but ending up taking cheap shots at eachother on forums... People are trying, but it doesnt seem to work... i agree because honestly it just seems like a blow after blow to NASL, SC2con and the Korean teams... we will probably never know the 100% truth behind all of this drama... but i am not putting the blame on anybody because we don't know exactly who to blame....
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On August 15 2011 10:19 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:49 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 08:41 JinDesu wrote:On August 15 2011 08:32 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 08:27 Ocedic wrote:On August 15 2011 03:26 Xeris wrote:On August 15 2011 03:25 NHY wrote: Did you read OP? Or the title? This is about what happened between NASL and S2CON. Although really nothing actually happened -- I was operating off of incorrect information so I made an assumption that is incorrect. If I had direct contact with someone who is making // has made the decisions it would be much easier for us to work out problems, but right now I am in the dark. Why did you make assumptions to begin with? It's not like the public was clamoring for you to pin someone to blame. Your post could literally have been "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL" and all this shit could have been avoided. Instead what you did was basically libel in an attempt to absolve yourself of all responsibility. Ok lets say he did what you say and just said "All Koreans have withdrawn from season 2 of NASL". Do you really think that the fans would have said, 'Oh, ok NASL thats fine, we don't want to know WHY they aren't playing" The fans would be calling for Xeris head on a stake and demanding to know what happened. "We are working on communicating with the koreans for the reasons why they left" Would have solved a ton of drama, left it on the korean's plate, and satisfied a lot of people. Have to disagree with you on the satisfied a lot of people part. This community isn't known for their patience as you can probably tell. And plus if they had done that, whats to stop the Koreans from releasing their own statement saying, "Hey we tried to negotiate with NASL and we gave them a small, reasonable list of things that we wanted changed but they were unwilling to compromise so we pulled out. Don't blame us, blame them." And if you are going to say that the Koreans wouldn't do that, that's exactly what happened with EG/Puma/Coach Lee, with Lee going to the press 1st and blindsiding EG with his statement. You're wrong. This community is known to eat up anything 'officially stated,' as shown by the reaction to Xeris' post full of false information to begin with. Fact is, if Xeris just simply stated he didn't know why it had occurred, who cares? Tournament hosters are almost never blamed for people not showing up. COUNTLESS past events have had last minute player switches or no shows, and people usually say "That's too bad" or if they feel the need to blame someone, they blame the PLAYER (for not getting visa in time, etc.) So you're basically completely wrong. EDIT: And finally, you're ignoring the fact that HE COMMITTED LIBEL. There is no excuse for it. Saying he 'needed to say something to satiate this forum' is NOT an excuse to lie and make up shit. The fact that you're acting as if Xeris is the victim here and he had no choice is nothing short of laughable. So you actually condone a policy of "Make up shit before we have all the information and post it as news" in lieu of having all the facts? I never said that Xeris was a victim nor did I try to portray him as such. But your blatant hate for the guy makes me think that even if he was a victim, you wouldn't care. I'm gonna post a portion of a post I made in the 'Xeris speaks on Korean withdrawal thread' just to clarify some things:
"It seems that people have somewhat of a personal vendetta against NASL in general and Xeris specifically. Or maybe that just can't stand the fact that people are defending them and it just increases their disgust. Having said that, NASL has lost credibility in my eyes as more of how they assumed certain things and miscommunicated with various parties, has come out."
And regarding ignoring certain facts and committing unethical acts, you seem to be ignoring the fact that teams committed breach of contract by pulling out of the NASL when they did.
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On August 15 2011 07:40 johngalt90 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 07:15 mango_destroyer wrote:On August 15 2011 07:12 johngalt90 wrote: Someone is definitely lying sounds like korea con are the ones not being fully honest Based on what? There is 0 korean participation currently. you mean to tell me that not a single korean doesnt want to participate in the NASL (i mean not the most proffesional tournament but still). Fly out one weeeknd for a round of 32 for a shot at GSL code s prize pool. The most important question is why is there such heavy korean attendance at MLG and none for NASL. MLG is a three day long battle of non-stop games with a significantly smaller prize pool. KoreaCon has to be blocking player participation since most koreans would love the chance to participate. Also what about Assembly NADA went to that and it really isnt any cheaper to travel to scandinavia than the united states. That is why i think they are hiding something. SC2con doesnt have a very good track record either. Besides Xeris isnt some random definitely going to take Xeris word over sketchy kespa-like organizations.
They can't afford it. What is hard to understand about that?
Despite the fact the Koreans are much, much better than most foreigners, they're not funded even vaguely comparably. If they want to go abroad, they need SOMEONE to pay for it, and their teams can't afford it, or have decided they don't want to risk the investment for a possible return.
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I knew the original release from NASL was bullshit. It just made no sense. I was so shocked to see such a huge number of people suddenly supporting NASL after badmouthing them for endless lack of professionalism a month earlier.
People are just looking for a reason to label SC2CON as "OMG EVIL KESPA 2.0" and they're jumping at every opportunity to do so. Even ridiculously stupid, baseless claims from NASL.
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On August 15 2011 09:52 jnsjr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 09:30 iKlutz wrote: As someone said before, it's really hard to know whats going on with this whole situation at the moment, if the korean teams don't want to participate that is fair enough but the only crime i see being committed is the miss use of "S2con" in the original statement. The allegations about S2con's involvement weren't really allegations, NASL was just expressing it's worry over rumours that s2con was preventing teams from participating not claiming that they were doing so. Don't give NASL too much undeserved slack over this obviously they are going to be concerned if they thought something was going on. What about breaching a signed contract and putting the other party in a severe situation? How can you, and so many people on this forum not see how terrible that is or see that as a "crime"? NASL could be the worst run organization in the world; it doesn't mean that breaching a signed contract is all of a sudden alright, legally or morally (unless it was signed under some sort of duress, which is doubtful). The genius of this is that NASL doesn't really have any recourse, specific performance is out of the question, and a successful suit ending with a damage award would do nothing but hurt the scene, and make them even more hated. I can't even begin to imagine the ultimate damage to their image thanks to their mistake about SC2Con's involvement. Again, you can't discount the situation that they were put in after the contracts were signed. NASL is obviously not 100% guilt free, but they are NOT the people going back on their SIGNED WORD.
I seem to recall that the contracts were not binding, and they were free to pull out. There was a post about that a while ago.
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On August 15 2011 10:46 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 09:52 jnsjr wrote:On August 15 2011 09:30 iKlutz wrote: As someone said before, it's really hard to know whats going on with this whole situation at the moment, if the korean teams don't want to participate that is fair enough but the only crime i see being committed is the miss use of "S2con" in the original statement. The allegations about S2con's involvement weren't really allegations, NASL was just expressing it's worry over rumours that s2con was preventing teams from participating not claiming that they were doing so. Don't give NASL too much undeserved slack over this obviously they are going to be concerned if they thought something was going on. What about breaching a signed contract and putting the other party in a severe situation? How can you, and so many people on this forum not see how terrible that is or see that as a "crime"? NASL could be the worst run organization in the world; it doesn't mean that breaching a signed contract is all of a sudden alright, legally or morally (unless it was signed under some sort of duress, which is doubtful). The genius of this is that NASL doesn't really have any recourse, specific performance is out of the question, and a successful suit ending with a damage award would do nothing but hurt the scene, and make them even more hated. I can't even begin to imagine the ultimate damage to their image thanks to their mistake about SC2Con's involvement. Again, you can't discount the situation that they were put in after the contracts were signed. NASL is obviously not 100% guilt free, but they are NOT the people going back on their SIGNED WORD. I seem to recall that the contracts were not binding, and they were free to pull out. There was a post about that a while ago.
That makes no sense, a contract that's not binding isn't a contract. That's the whole point of one, to bind the parties to certain responsibilities and obligations. And to take it one step further, if they weren't binding that would mean that NASL could be like, "Well we arent gonna pay the winners their prize money, after all the contract isn't binding, so we are gonna pull out of our end of the deal"
Edit: If you could find that post, I would greatly appreciate it. This is the 1st time in the whole 2-3 days of this fiasco that anybody has said anything like that. I think that if that had been posted, people would remember it as it serves as a great argument against NASL. And the anti NASL grp would be using it ad nasuem.
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On August 15 2011 08:35 WizShaw wrote: I love how everybody just eats up what was said instead of actually trying to read between the lines.
Everything said is always going to be PR based. EVERYTHING. That said, Pr is about positioning. And the truth probably lies somewhere in between.
This phrase comes to mind.
Everybody wants peace but secretly prepares for war. In other words, its best to secure your image but it is natural to positon yourself accordingly to acquire the most benefit.
This is a perfect example of that. Who knows what to believe. I think "trying to read between the lines" is how people make asses of themselves. Why not rely on concrete statements instead of assuming something other than what was said? All the information isn't out there yet so it would be premature to say that something else has happened that is different from what is being said.
So far there aren't any contradictions from SC2Con's statements and other statements made by Koreans. The confusion mostly came from NASL's selective information reports that "read between the lines".
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Well for 11 people to simultaneously pulled out of a tournament at the same time, there must of been some sort of committee involved.
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This NASL thing seems to be falling apart. I really supported it at the startup and blindly bought everything...but now... I hope they get their act together because the foreign starcraft scene needs the growth.
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oh god its going to be kespa all over again isn't it. Why when as soon as money becomes involved the darker sides of people seem to come out so quickly. Can't we all just get a long for the sake of eSports? Not blaming anyone, but I think the excuse of: "Korean players just didn't want to play in nasl, its not about money or sc2con" is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard. Chance to win big money, foreign fame, 95% free trip to america, that sounds like what almost every Korean player wants. I blame NASL and SC2CON both for greed and stupidity that harms eSports, shame on both parties, shame.
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On August 14 2011 22:01 flakmonkey wrote: sC didn't wish to participate in NASL? That doesn't make any sense to me. Why would he attempt to qualify for the tournament in the first place?
jaeh makes me get a bad oppinion from sC making a quali and then not wanting to play is sad!
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I remember not so long ago when starcraft was about watching and playing in fun and entertaining games. These growing pains of e-sports becoming big business sure are a real pain in the rear. I often wish we could go back to simpler times.
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i think it's just the asian buisness model.
tell you one thing while doing the complete opposite, deny everything, say your the one under attack and that your the good guy while pointing fingers at somebody else.
China has been doing this sorta shit for decades over tibet, Japan has as well over chemical testing on prisoners of war and it wouldn't surprise me if the same thing was happening in other asian countrys.
What ever is going on over there... it's frustrating as fuck to have absolutely no transparency.
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Indeed the comments by NASL seem pretty baseless, it's sad that Koreans aren't participating but I think it strains foreigner-korean relationships when NASL comes out with comments that Sc2Con is blocking the participation of Koreans without any evidence, especially with all the other problems going on right now.
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On August 15 2011 12:15 Bodzilla wrote: i think it's just the asian buisness model.
tell you one thing while doing the complete opposite, deny everything, say your the one under attack and that your the good guy while pointing fingers at somebody else.
China has been doing this sorta shit for decades over tibet, Japan has as well over chemical testing on prisoners of war and it wouldn't surprise me if the same thing was happening in other asian countrys.
What ever is going on over there... it's frustrating as fuck to have absolutely no transparency.
That is just an ignorant statement. Take a few examples from different countries and use it to make a derogatory blanket statement.
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Misunderstandings are ruining ESPORTS.
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On August 15 2011 08:58 two.watup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:43 RavenLoud wrote: It does leave the questions about FXO's withdrawal pretty much unanswered though... No it doesn't. FXO means fOu. As said in the OP, sC told his coach he didn't want to play. Answer answered. I meant why they withdrew from S2con, but thanks.
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On August 15 2011 01:56 Doodsmack wrote: After all this, as well as the EG/Puma issue, I would hope the TL community has learned its lesson about bringing out the pitchforks before hearing both sides of the story. Given the obvious communication issues between Korea and the west, I would hope TL mods do something to mitigate the impact of any future threads similar to Milkis's post on the EG/Puma issue and NASL's post on the present issue.
sadly.... i don't think anyone will change. Something i noticed about TL is that they have a really bad mob mentality or something.
anyway, on topic, when i think about all this, i think the koreans DID intend on playing in S2 (remember, qualifiers were done before s1 finals) but their opinions changed after the S1 finals for one reason or another so they wanted out. Really both parties r in the wrong here (koreans dropping out rather late and nasl blowing this up).
Nothing really left to do but to.. MOVE ON....
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this reeks of BS tbh, feels all wrong.
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On August 15 2011 13:06 sc14s wrote: this reeks of BS tbh, feels all wrong. 'Cos the original NASL post made so much sense, right?
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I'm starting to feel like every thread i see is about someone apologizing to someone. I understand that it may be needed to bring koreans to foreign tournaments and vice versa but i just wish people would have a little bit thicker skin
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On August 15 2011 13:14 Dox wrote:'Cos the original NASL post made so much sense, right?
actually it did:
"they pulled out because we didn't give them enough and we're not bending over."
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On August 15 2011 10:53 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 10:46 iamthedave wrote:On August 15 2011 09:52 jnsjr wrote:On August 15 2011 09:30 iKlutz wrote: As someone said before, it's really hard to know whats going on with this whole situation at the moment, if the korean teams don't want to participate that is fair enough but the only crime i see being committed is the miss use of "S2con" in the original statement. The allegations about S2con's involvement weren't really allegations, NASL was just expressing it's worry over rumours that s2con was preventing teams from participating not claiming that they were doing so. Don't give NASL too much undeserved slack over this obviously they are going to be concerned if they thought something was going on. What about breaching a signed contract and putting the other party in a severe situation? How can you, and so many people on this forum not see how terrible that is or see that as a "crime"? NASL could be the worst run organization in the world; it doesn't mean that breaching a signed contract is all of a sudden alright, legally or morally (unless it was signed under some sort of duress, which is doubtful). The genius of this is that NASL doesn't really have any recourse, specific performance is out of the question, and a successful suit ending with a damage award would do nothing but hurt the scene, and make them even more hated. I can't even begin to imagine the ultimate damage to their image thanks to their mistake about SC2Con's involvement. Again, you can't discount the situation that they were put in after the contracts were signed. NASL is obviously not 100% guilt free, but they are NOT the people going back on their SIGNED WORD. I seem to recall that the contracts were not binding, and they were free to pull out. There was a post about that a while ago. That makes no sense, a contract that's not binding isn't a contract. That's the whole point of one, to bind the parties to certain responsibilities and obligations. And to take it one step further, if they weren't binding that would mean that NASL could be like, "Well we arent gonna pay the winners their prize money, after all the contract isn't binding, so we are gonna pull out of our end of the deal" Edit: If you could find that post, I would greatly appreciate it. This is the 1st time in the whole 2-3 days of this fiasco that anybody has said anything like that. I think that if that had been posted, people would remember it as it serves as a great argument against NASL. And the anti NASL grp would be using it ad nasuem.
It's quite a long time ago and I think it was in the other thread.
But if they have breached the contract, why aren't they being sued for doing so? I'm certain that it was stated they had a certain point where they could pull out of the contract, and they did so at close to the last moment. Presumably they were able to pull out up until the season actually began.
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On August 15 2011 12:34 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:58 two.watup wrote:On August 15 2011 08:43 RavenLoud wrote: It does leave the questions about FXO's withdrawal pretty much unanswered though... No it doesn't. FXO means fOu. As said in the OP, sC told his coach he didn't want to play. Answer answered. I meant why they withdrew from S2con, but thanks. check out the thread by fxoboss about his dealings with SC2Con and their actions towards FXO. Basically sc2con wanted to change some things about FXO and Boss wouldnt have any of that. Boss declined to change his team and SC2con followed with threats and insults etc.
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On August 15 2011 13:36 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 10:53 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 10:46 iamthedave wrote:On August 15 2011 09:52 jnsjr wrote:On August 15 2011 09:30 iKlutz wrote: As someone said before, it's really hard to know whats going on with this whole situation at the moment, if the korean teams don't want to participate that is fair enough but the only crime i see being committed is the miss use of "S2con" in the original statement. The allegations about S2con's involvement weren't really allegations, NASL was just expressing it's worry over rumours that s2con was preventing teams from participating not claiming that they were doing so. Don't give NASL too much undeserved slack over this obviously they are going to be concerned if they thought something was going on. What about breaching a signed contract and putting the other party in a severe situation? How can you, and so many people on this forum not see how terrible that is or see that as a "crime"? NASL could be the worst run organization in the world; it doesn't mean that breaching a signed contract is all of a sudden alright, legally or morally (unless it was signed under some sort of duress, which is doubtful). The genius of this is that NASL doesn't really have any recourse, specific performance is out of the question, and a successful suit ending with a damage award would do nothing but hurt the scene, and make them even more hated. I can't even begin to imagine the ultimate damage to their image thanks to their mistake about SC2Con's involvement. Again, you can't discount the situation that they were put in after the contracts were signed. NASL is obviously not 100% guilt free, but they are NOT the people going back on their SIGNED WORD. I seem to recall that the contracts were not binding, and they were free to pull out. There was a post about that a while ago. That makes no sense, a contract that's not binding isn't a contract. That's the whole point of one, to bind the parties to certain responsibilities and obligations. And to take it one step further, if they weren't binding that would mean that NASL could be like, "Well we arent gonna pay the winners their prize money, after all the contract isn't binding, so we are gonna pull out of our end of the deal" Edit: If you could find that post, I would greatly appreciate it. This is the 1st time in the whole 2-3 days of this fiasco that anybody has said anything like that. I think that if that had been posted, people would remember it as it serves as a great argument against NASL. And the anti NASL grp would be using it ad nasuem. It's quite a long time ago and I think it was in the other thread. But if they have breached the contract, why aren't they being sued for doing so? I'm certain that it was stated they had a certain point where they could pull out of the contract, and they did so at close to the last moment. Presumably they were able to pull out up until the season actually began.
The reasons they won't sue is that they can't sue them to compel them to play and any monetary damages they could conceivably win would be dwarfed by the legal costs of such a lawsuit. Basically in that regard, they are fucked.
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On August 14 2011 21:57 farnham wrote: in other words sc2con did nothing and got blamed for a crime they didnt commit and the korean teams just did not want to deal with NASL
lol yeah of course not, las time a korean team lost a member there. You gotta remember that.
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LOL I knew sc2con had no power over these kind of things... they are just an organization set out to protect Korean players from injustice within Korea (as they stated).
Basically, this article is saying NASL is full of crap and they lied to everyone in the foreign scene how it's all the Korean's fault. (I'm not surprised because even Boxer doesn't like NASL)
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On August 15 2011 14:01 FidoDido wrote: LOL I knew sc2con had no power over these kind of things... they are just an organization set out to protect Korean players from injustice within Korea (as they stated).
Basically, this article is saying NASL is full of crap and they lied to everyone in the foreign scene how it's all the Korean's fault. (I'm not surprised because even Boxer doesn't like NASL) All this article is saying that it isn't an official sc2con decision and that they aren't preventing players from being in the NASL.
There is still the whole Korean teams signing contracts and then breaking them thing though, you know the thing that completely screwed the NASL.
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America + Canada = nasl bashes koreans + SC2con, fuck SCSI2.con!!!!!!
SC2-teams explain, america + Canada=ihop lord i just dont know what to think..
I have one word for u all
BIAS
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On August 14 2011 23:00 SimDawg wrote: If Boss withdrew from SC2Con because of 1 person, then there's no reason that all of this couldn't be true from SC2Con's point of view as far as NASL goes. I don't know how NASL managed to piss off every single Korean in the world, but seems like that might be the case.
You piss off Boxer and you pretty much piss off every other Korean related to e-sports.
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On August 15 2011 14:01 FidoDido wrote: LOL I knew sc2con had no power over these kind of things... they are just an organization set out to protect Korean players from injustice within Korea (as they stated).
Basically, this article is saying NASL is full of crap and they lied to everyone in the foreign scene how it's all the Korean's fault. (I'm not surprised because even Boxer doesn't like NASL)
Boxer and NASL are on good terms with each other. That puts a needle in your bubble.
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On August 15 2011 15:01 whateverpeeps wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 14:01 FidoDido wrote: LOL I knew sc2con had no power over these kind of things... they are just an organization set out to protect Korean players from injustice within Korea (as they stated).
Basically, this article is saying NASL is full of crap and they lied to everyone in the foreign scene how it's all the Korean's fault. (I'm not surprised because even Boxer doesn't like NASL) Boxer and NASL are on good terms with each other. That puts a needle in your bubble.
On such good terms that his entire team has pulled out of NASL? A team that has no association with SC2con?
He might not be angry with them, but he wasn't pleased with the arrangements either.
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NASL is just going to have to be a foreigner based tournament until korean teams can find a way to get proper sponsors.
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This is why you wait for the whole story to come out before passing judgment.
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Xeris is a good guy though. He didn't mean to steal those chairs.
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On August 15 2011 16:28 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 15:01 whateverpeeps wrote:On August 15 2011 14:01 FidoDido wrote: LOL I knew sc2con had no power over these kind of things... they are just an organization set out to protect Korean players from injustice within Korea (as they stated).
Basically, this article is saying NASL is full of crap and they lied to everyone in the foreign scene how it's all the Korean's fault. (I'm not surprised because even Boxer doesn't like NASL) Boxer and NASL are on good terms with each other. That puts a needle in your bubble. On such good terms that his entire team has pulled out of NASL? A team that has no association with SC2con? He might not be angry with them, but he wasn't pleased with the arrangements either. Sure, he may not have liked NASL's arrangements, but you know what he didn't do? Sign the contract, and then back out on it.
He withdrew from the NASL on his own volition and that's fine. There wouldn't be any problem if the Koreans withdrew before signing contracts and what not. But some of them signed contracts and are now breaking them.
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Is it just me or do Korean coaches seem kinda shady........every Korean "individually" chose to back out? I don't buy that, and $50,000 isn't worth the hassle? All these guys do is live in the same house and play starcraft! In fairness NASL seems like they need to make it easier for the players.
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Didn't Mr. Chae once tell us that Koreans would sacrifice a lot to participate in GSL if it was american or european?
Because, I'm confused. Mr. Chae obviously thinks more foreigners should come to Seoul, one of the more expensive cities in the entire world, and participate in the GSL.
Now, the koreans won't even participate in a foreign online league where Ro16 are played 'on LAN' over a weekend?
LOLK.
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Did anyone actually expect MVP to speak out agaisn't Sc2con?
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Thank you for the translation! Hard to make sense of this situation at the moment!
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Koreans laying the smackdown even in the arena of PR..
I believe I speak for NASL when I say... aaawwwwkwwwaaaarrddd...
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embarrassing actions by nasl
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Honestly, who gives a crap about all this PR bullshit?
Nobody denies that the Korean players were given a totally reasonable offer.
Nobody denies that they, as a whole, are refusing to play.
I realize that, as Starcraft fans, we all are inclined to treat Koreans like deities who can do no wrong, but sure seems like they're being sort of snobbish in this case. I would _love_ to see Koreans participating in more foreign tournaments, particularly as their scene is cash-strapped, but it's downright asinine for people to expect that they get super-special treatment for every one.
Don't see what NASL could have done.
-Cross
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There seems to be a huge ongoing communication problem on many fronts among Korean SC2 Teams and Non-Korean SC2 Teams as well as the SC2Com. It was first with EG and now this.
Hopefully, we can get thing resolved and continue to have a good relationship with Korean teams/SC2Com.
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Koreans won't attend NASL season 2. A compromise was attempted, but did not succeed. End of story. Let's just all enjoy season 2 when it comes around.
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I'm a bit confused why people are taking this message at face value while saying NASL's statement is baseless. We have just as much proof that either one could be right.
From what I've read about the issue, it just seems like a compromise issue (as xXFireandIceXx said) mixed with a little bit of an entitlement complex from the Korean teams. It's just getting blown out of proportion.
I guess all (e-)sport franchises need drama. :D
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NASL needs to stop depending on Koreans to get publicity. As soon as the drama concerning wages and stipends grew NASL should have bailed on the idea entirely. If Korean teams can't swing a few plane tickets for the tournament with the biggest prize pool in history then too bad. Their loss. NASL should have faith in the players from NA and their ability to draw a crowd.
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Does anyone have the photoshop from the NASL Grand Finals Day 1 with Boxer holding up a sign saying "Never Coming Again". Seems more fitting now.
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Koreans aren't going because Xeris is going to take their VIP chairs since he's earned them through years of hard work.
Jokes aside, too much conspiracy theories here that there is some sort of "asian value" going on, that players are pressured by collective will to not participate, these are baseless speculations and quite frankly, a bit 'racist' to presume that Koreans are drones that requires group consensus to do anything.
Surely, the individual teams and individual members have assessed the pros and cons of entering, we need to stop speculating until further information. I am going to reiterate a point that is highly subjective but draws on the credibility of Boxer, is that if Boxer is declining to do a second season of NASL regardless of a relatively good performance, it is more than likely it isn't an issue of money but rather some disapproval with the way the tournament is organized. We can only speculate.
I think NASL is trying too hard in selling to the public that they are the victims of this whole debauchery. From this news alone, where we know that NASL has "misinterpreted" the koreans' decision as a collective decision by SC2Con, we know that the NASL is able to "accidentally" accuse the Koreans things that are absolutely not true. It's almost as if the NASL thinks language barrier can filter out the truth, but thank goodness we have great translators keeping a good watch on the Koreans' opinions public on TL.
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I hope despite this NASL season 3 sees more Koreans compete! I really don't buy that he didn't know SC2Con was an organization.
On another note SC2Con is doing fine by me. Fighting for player salaries, apologizing and being generally around without causing hell. Hopefully not following Kespa's footsteps.
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On the one hand, we have the big dollar (nasl), and then the koreans with maybe entitlement? I am so confused, but I really dont trust NASL, they hired some photomodel that said "excellent" all the time, who was clueless and noone, besides those with a boner, liked her.
NASL should sell their image, not just dump everything in a huge prizepool. Better production, more stylish, and lower pricepool.
When I think of it, I should give NASL some more chances, I remember GSL season 1, God awful quality on everything they did, but they did their work and preparation for seasons to come. Please make something beatiful NASL, pick the best from EU/NA, that would be cool.
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IMHO, this is a serious case of people going off of assumption and innuendo and others not refuting said assumption and innuendo. Unfortunate, as its beginning to seem like a lot of the drama between the Korean teams and NASL could have been reduced or eliminated. Worth mentioning, however, is the fact that the Korean teams withdrew from NASL after the players signed contracts.
NASL Hwaiting <3
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On August 14 2011 21:53 NHY wrote:NASL replied that Show nested quote + To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
This is the stupidest shit I've heard in quite some time. Every time anybody from NASL speaks it's like listening to an arrogant 12 year old trying to represent every mistake they make as not their fault.
He basically said "I dno anything about sc2con or whether they were involved in this decision but I thought I'd just use their name so it's less typing for me." How much more unprofessional can NASL get? They keep shattering their own records.
Go to hell NASL. You're never getting my money and I hope you fail. The West deserves to be represented by competent organizations and they already exist. No-one will miss you when you're done failing.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 16 2011 01:27 MildSeven wrote: Koreans aren't going because Xeris is going to take their VIP chairs since he's earned them through years of hard work.
Jokes aside, too much conspiracy theories here that there is some sort of "asian value" going on, that players are pressured by collective will to not participate, these are baseless speculations and quite frankly, a bit 'racist' to presume that Koreans are drones that requires group consensus to do anything.
Surely, the individual teams and individual members have assessed the pros and cons of entering, we need to stop speculating until further information. I am going to reiterate a point that is highly subjective but draws on the credibility of Boxer, is that if Boxer is declining to do a second season of NASL regardless of a relatively good performance, it is more than likely it isn't an issue of money but rather some disapproval with the way the tournament is organized. We can only speculate.
I think NASL is trying too hard in selling to the public that they are the victims of this whole debauchery. From this news alone, where we know that NASL has "misinterpreted" the koreans' decision as a collective decision by SC2Con, we know that the NASL is able to "accidentally" accuse the Koreans things that are absolutely not true. It's almost as if the NASL thinks language barrier can filter out the truth, but thank goodness we have great translators keeping a good watch on the Koreans' opinions public on TL.
Well I wasn't one who tried to guess why the Korean's made these decisions and I will just wait for the facts to come out. However, it is not "racist" as you say for someone to presume that Asians would be more likely to engage in a collective behavior. Generally eastern cultures, Japan and S.Korea in particular can be described as shame societies, and the west as guilt societies. Obviously they are generalizations but in a 'shame society" it is very important for people to do what is expected of them. Age is also very important. If an older, more experienced or otherwise important person makes a decision then younger gamers would almost certainly fall into line as expected. That might not be what happened in this situation but you shouldn't be so quick to accuse someone of being a racist.
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From what I've gathered, both sides are to blame equally.
Korean teams need to act a bit more professional and hold up their end of a bargain, or contract. Signing contracts and backing out because they don't feel like upholding the contract is not only unprofessional but childish. Grow up. If there is any form of collusion going on, quit it. It's not cute and it causes nothing but drama.
On the other hand, NASL, if it is your wish to represent the West as the top, premier sc2 tournament organization, you should start acting like it. Fire whoever keeps prematurely releasing press statements full of blanket assumptions, ignorant statements, and baseless accusations, as well as whoever authorizes the press release of said statements. Yes, it's unfair and it sucks that the Koreans aren't holding their end of the bargain, but if you handle things like a mature, professional organization should, you would at least hold the respect of the sc2 community, and perhaps the Koreans will follow suit and grow up as well. Then, perhaps, you can begin to address the issues that players have with how the tournament is being run, so you can truly become the top tournament organization of the West.
I really do hope this immature, dramatic nonsense gets cleared up, and both parties in this case grow up and begin to do what's best not only for themselves, but the sc2 community as a whole. Some of us are tired of these shenanigans and just wanna watch some quality sc2 games.
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On August 16 2011 02:25 Vladimir wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2011 21:53 NHY wrote:NASL replied that To clarify: I don't know the exact dynamic that is going on in Korea right now. However, what I do know is that it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams. My first draft had written "SC2 Korean Team Committee." In an effort to not write that every time, I wrote SC2Con upon learning that SC2Con was a committee of the Korean teams.
This is the stupidest shit I've heard in quite some time. Every time anybody from NASL speaks it's like listening to an arrogant 12 year old trying to represent every mistake they make as not their fault. He basically said "I dno anything about sc2con or whether they were involved in this decision but I thought I'd just use their name so it's less typing for me." How much more unprofessional can NASL get? They keep shattering their own records. Go to hell NASL. You're never getting my money and I hope you fail. The West deserves to be represented by competent organizations and they already exist. No-one will miss you when you're done failing.
This just boggles my mind. So the first announcement from NASL was made with no knowledge of what was happening, blaming an organization that they never contacted for players withdrawing, saying they waited until the last minute, etc. and the entire thing was made up?
It's painfully obvious the blame lies entirely on whoever from NASL thought they were contacting "SC2Con" for failure to communicate. "it was (apparently) a collective decision of Korean teams." WT-ACTUAL-F. How do you not know who you're negotiating with, and then blame them for delaying your program? At this point I wouldn't be surprised if recorded calls were leaked from GOMTV customer support with some kid from the NASL calling in asking if he could get some good Korean Code S players to play in his tournament.
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NASL has a lot of explaining to do, and a lot of losses to take compared to season 1. I'm even wondering if they'll be able to afford Lindsay again :D
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On August 16 2011 01:01 JudgeHolden wrote: NASL needs to stop depending on Koreans to get publicity. As soon as the drama concerning wages and stipends grew NASL should have bailed on the idea entirely. If Korean teams can't swing a few plane tickets for the tournament with the biggest prize pool in history then too bad. Their loss. NASL should have faith in the players from NA and their ability to draw a crowd.
NASL is so good at marketing. Their announcement thread has 177 pages of Korean team bashing (from my cursory look.. it's a lot of pages). And this one with their mea culpa is barely commented on.
They talked up how big their prize pool is, but last I checked, 100k for Season 1 is about 60% the size of GSL Open 1 (~$170k depending on exchange rate).
It's still smaller than the Code S prize pool in fact (~$129k).
As for foreign teams and participation it's a problem with MLG as well. I've notice that the European player list for MLG is pretty erratic for the non-seeded players. Plus, quite a few notable Koreans (Nada, Boxer, Ensnare) from NASL 1 withdrew before NASL 2. They didn't announce why, but probably a combination of playing a very grueling 10 week qualifier with little to no upside other than the top 4 had to do with it. It's just a little surprising that the rest decided to mass withdraw like this.
Definitely could have been handled better on both ends, but remember how poor communication with the Korean teams was in Season 1? I don't think we should be surprised that the language/culture/time barriers persisted into Season 2.
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Why cant they just leave it at:"Korean players will not be able to come because of unfortunate circumstances"?
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On August 16 2011 05:55 hobosrus wrote: Why cant they just leave it at:"Korean players will not be able to come because of unfortunate circumstances"? Because it just wouldn't be NASL if they didn't at least try to blame everyone else first
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On August 16 2011 05:55 hobosrus wrote: Why cant they just leave it at:"Korean players will not be able to come because of unfortunate circumstances"?
That would've been the legitimate correct way to handle this. But it's the internets, drama has to be created right?
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Because the korean teams acted terribly, and that should be exposed so others can be cautious when dealing with them. SlayerS withdrew amicably and NASL did not threw a fuss about that.
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On August 16 2011 06:15 Soap wrote: Because the korean teams acted terribly, and that should be exposed so others can be cautious when dealing with them. SlayerS withdrew amicably and NASL did not threw a fuss about that.
I think the korean's legitimately wanted to play, but since they were forced to sign the contracts so early, they did so in good faith that negotiations would be worked out since they were already known and being presented to NASL back in june. fast forward 2 months, and basically negotiations didn't happen, so they had to withdraw. I think the koreans probably really wanted to play, they just wanted to make sure they were treated the way they would expect to be treated, especially for enduring a 10 week long season. Some miscommunication probably happened on both ends but I don't think it's fair to just flat out call the koreans bastards for pulling out late, they probably only did it so late because they legitimately thought they could fix things in time to make both sides happy but that didn't so they didn't.
People need to get off this Korean hatewagon.
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On August 16 2011 06:19 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 06:15 Soap wrote: Because the korean teams acted terribly, and that should be exposed so others can be cautious when dealing with them. SlayerS withdrew amicably and NASL did not threw a fuss about that. I think the korean's legitimately wanted to play, but since they were forced to sign the contracts so early, they did so in good faith that negotiations would be worked out since they were already known and being presented to NASL back in june. fast forward 2 months, and basically negotiations didn't happen, so they had to withdraw. I think the koreans probably really wanted to play, they just wanted to make sure they were treated the way they would expect to be treated, especially for enduring a 10 week long season. Some miscommunication probably happened on both ends but I don't think it's fair to just flat out call the koreans bastards for pulling out late, they probably only did it so late because they legitimately thought they could fix things in time to make both sides happy but that didn't so they didn't. People need to get off this Korean hatewagon.
They didn't sign the contracts 2 months ago, they signed approx 10-15 days ago. And after they signed the contracts, thats when the decided to bring up their concerns..
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On August 16 2011 06:19 Kazeyonoma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 06:15 Soap wrote: Because the korean teams acted terribly, and that should be exposed so others can be cautious when dealing with them. SlayerS withdrew amicably and NASL did not threw a fuss about that. I think the korean's legitimately wanted to play, but since they were forced to sign the contracts so early, they did so in good faith that negotiations would be worked out since they were already known and being presented to NASL back in june. fast forward 2 months, and basically negotiations didn't happen, so they had to withdraw. I think the koreans probably really wanted to play, they just wanted to make sure they were treated the way they would expect to be treated, especially for enduring a 10 week long season. Some miscommunication probably happened on both ends but I don't think it's fair to just flat out call the koreans bastards for pulling out late, they probably only did it so late because they legitimately thought they could fix things in time to make both sides happy but that didn't so they didn't. People need to get off this Korean hatewagon.
Also I think a lot of people feel like the Koreans have put up some pretty arrogant demands considering they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous. I mean I think it would be nice to see some Koreans but at the end of the day their demands just seem insane. Maybe in time they will come to their senses and realize it is 100,000 dollars for a mostly online tournament but in the meantime I feel like they should get a little hate for their arrogant attitude and the fact that they seem to have no business sense with contracts and such.
People need to get on this Korean hatewagon.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 16 2011 06:53 SlipperySnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 06:19 Kazeyonoma wrote:On August 16 2011 06:15 Soap wrote: Because the korean teams acted terribly, and that should be exposed so others can be cautious when dealing with them. SlayerS withdrew amicably and NASL did not threw a fuss about that. I think the korean's legitimately wanted to play, but since they were forced to sign the contracts so early, they did so in good faith that negotiations would be worked out since they were already known and being presented to NASL back in june. fast forward 2 months, and basically negotiations didn't happen, so they had to withdraw. I think the koreans probably really wanted to play, they just wanted to make sure they were treated the way they would expect to be treated, especially for enduring a 10 week long season. Some miscommunication probably happened on both ends but I don't think it's fair to just flat out call the koreans bastards for pulling out late, they probably only did it so late because they legitimately thought they could fix things in time to make both sides happy but that didn't so they didn't. People need to get off this Korean hatewagon. Also I think a lot of people feel like the Koreans have put up some pretty arrogant demands considering they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous. I mean I think it would be nice to see some Koreans but at the end of the day their demands just seem insane. Maybe in time they will come to their senses and realize it is 100,000 dollars for a mostly online tournament but in the meantime I feel like they should get a little hate for their arrogant attitude and the fact that they seem to have no business sense with contracts and such. People need to get on this Korean hatewagon.
wow did you really just promote hate lol?
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On August 16 2011 06:53 SlipperySnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 06:19 Kazeyonoma wrote:On August 16 2011 06:15 Soap wrote: Because the korean teams acted terribly, and that should be exposed so others can be cautious when dealing with them. SlayerS withdrew amicably and NASL did not threw a fuss about that. I think the korean's legitimately wanted to play, but since they were forced to sign the contracts so early, they did so in good faith that negotiations would be worked out since they were already known and being presented to NASL back in june. fast forward 2 months, and basically negotiations didn't happen, so they had to withdraw. I think the koreans probably really wanted to play, they just wanted to make sure they were treated the way they would expect to be treated, especially for enduring a 10 week long season. Some miscommunication probably happened on both ends but I don't think it's fair to just flat out call the koreans bastards for pulling out late, they probably only did it so late because they legitimately thought they could fix things in time to make both sides happy but that didn't so they didn't. People need to get off this Korean hatewagon. Also I think a lot of people feel like the Koreans have put up some pretty arrogant demands considering they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous. I mean I think it would be nice to see some Koreans but at the end of the day their demands just seem insane. Maybe in time they will come to their senses and realize it is 100,000 dollars for a mostly online tournament but in the meantime I feel like they should get a little hate for their arrogant attitude and the fact that they seem to have no business sense with contracts and such. People need to get on this Korean hatewagon.
No people need to get off the hatewagon! GO KOREA!!!
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People need to get off the hatewagon period, both for the Koreans and NASL. Save the hate for people who really deserve it, cause there a plenty of them out there.
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On August 16 2011 06:53 SlipperySnake wrote: they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous
Can you name another tournament that asks you to put a deposit down just to qualify? 10 weeks is a long time, and some of their management for Koreans wasn't the best.
Making July wait from something like 2 am to 8 am, because they couldn't get White-Ra on the phone comes to mind. Then if you saw the amount of lag during some gamesRainbow - Morrow (the drop screen came up constantly) or Ensnare - Darkforce (Ensnare even asked for a delay to let the lag clear up, which they didn't allow) maybe the qualifier isn't so simple/easy for them.
Also, let's be honest about how much money they can win. The 100k is split among the the 16 finalists. From last season's prize pool, finishing 5-8 net you 1.5k. Which is about the cost of a plane ticket from Korea to LA (time of year dependent of course). That doesn't include hotel, and means that Koreans finishing in the bottom half don't make *any* money.
Of course Europeans have the same travel problems, but foreign teams are more set up for travel with actual travel budgets (something Korean teams don't do to my knowledge), but even then they have to pick and choose where to send their players. Fnatic had a post about the cost prohibitions of sending players to train/compete in Korea after all.
Last, the cost of living (and subsequently income) in Korea is lower than in (most of) Europe / America so what's a 'reasonable' price to the West for travel is actually much higher relatively speaking for Koreans.
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On August 16 2011 06:53 SlipperySnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 06:19 Kazeyonoma wrote:On August 16 2011 06:15 Soap wrote: Because the korean teams acted terribly, and that should be exposed so others can be cautious when dealing with them. SlayerS withdrew amicably and NASL did not threw a fuss about that. I think the korean's legitimately wanted to play, but since they were forced to sign the contracts so early, they did so in good faith that negotiations would be worked out since they were already known and being presented to NASL back in june. fast forward 2 months, and basically negotiations didn't happen, so they had to withdraw. I think the koreans probably really wanted to play, they just wanted to make sure they were treated the way they would expect to be treated, especially for enduring a 10 week long season. Some miscommunication probably happened on both ends but I don't think it's fair to just flat out call the koreans bastards for pulling out late, they probably only did it so late because they legitimately thought they could fix things in time to make both sides happy but that didn't so they didn't. People need to get off this Korean hatewagon. Also I think a lot of people feel like the Koreans have put up some pretty arrogant demands considering they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous. I mean I think it would be nice to see some Koreans but at the end of the day their demands just seem insane. Maybe in time they will come to their senses and realize it is 100,000 dollars for a mostly online tournament but in the meantime I feel like they should get a little hate for their arrogant attitude and the fact that they seem to have no business sense with contracts and such. People need to get on this Korean hatewagon.
First, read Wuster's response (above) which does an amazing job counter-acting your point by analyzing the facts.
Second, realize that everything is relative. What you consider arrogant behavior, others may consider normal behavior. Poor kids in America may think that rich kids are spoiled, but poor people in 3rd world countries think that poor Americans are spoiled. In other words, who gives a shit if players from other countries think it's a good opportunity -- all that matters for the Koreans making a decision is whether or not it's a good opportunity for THEM.
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On August 16 2011 07:19 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 06:53 SlipperySnake wrote: they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous Can you name another tournament that asks you to put a deposit down just to qualify? 10 weeks is a long time, and some of their management for Koreans wasn't the best. Making July wait from something like 2 am to 8 am, because they couldn't get White-Ra on the phone comes to mind. Then if you saw the amount of lag during some gamesRainbow - Morrow (the drop screen came up constantly) or Ensnare - Darkforce (Ensnare even asked for a delay to let the lag clear up, which they didn't allow) maybe the qualifier isn't so simple/easy for them. Also, let's be honest about how much money they can win. The 100k is split among the the 16 finalists. From last season's prize pool, finishing 5-8 net you 1.5k. Which is about the cost of a plane ticket from Korea to LA (time of year dependent of course). That doesn't include hotel, and means that Koreans finishing in the bottom half don't make *any* money. Of course Europeans have the same travel problems, but foreign teams are more set up for travel with actual travel budgets (something Korean teams don't do to my knowledge), but even then they have to pick and choose where to send their players. Fnatic had a post about the cost prohibitions of sending players to train/compete in Korea after all. Last, the cost of living (and subsequently income) in Korea is lower than in (most of) Europe / America so what's a 'reasonable' price to the West for travel is actually much higher relatively speaking for Koreans.
As to your first question are you serious? NASL having a different model (Online Season) doesn't mean that the request for a deposit is ridiculous. In fact to even question this seems kind of stupid considering this entire argument is validation for having that deposit be there. Blah, whatever it just seems so ridiculous that I am just going to move on.
I don't think I ever argued that there was absolutely no hurdles but it just seems like the only perspective here is a Korean one about what they want to do. All I am saying is that if you look at a player like Puma and then tell me the travel expenses just don't match the potential upside expect me to act pretty damn surprised. Many of the Koreans had little trouble flying all the way out to MLG (much smaller prize pool) outside of the exchange to try to climb their way through the open bracket so I am sorry if I am pretty damn skeptical.
This is all idle talk though because the real point is why should NASL care, after all they are a NA league. So if people want to participate from other places it shouldn't be their responsibility first and foremost to cover all the outside costs but just build the prize pool until it compensates for the costs.
I guess I will end by saying that I think that maybe what I perceive as this Korean arrogance when it comes to spending travel money is just fostered by the MLG-GSL exchange system where players and teams just expect to be paid to go and win money and given ridiculous advantages when doing so. I am not saying that they aren't acting practically but what I am saying is that they shouldn't get a free pass for breaking contracts and probably severely damaging the legitimacy of the qualifying for S2.
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On August 16 2011 14:59 SlipperySnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:19 Wuster wrote:On August 16 2011 06:53 SlipperySnake wrote: they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous Can you name another tournament that asks you to put a deposit down just to qualify? 10 weeks is a long time, and some of their management for Koreans wasn't the best. Making July wait from something like 2 am to 8 am, because they couldn't get White-Ra on the phone comes to mind. Then if you saw the amount of lag during some gamesRainbow - Morrow (the drop screen came up constantly) or Ensnare - Darkforce (Ensnare even asked for a delay to let the lag clear up, which they didn't allow) maybe the qualifier isn't so simple/easy for them. Also, let's be honest about how much money they can win. The 100k is split among the the 16 finalists. From last season's prize pool, finishing 5-8 net you 1.5k. Which is about the cost of a plane ticket from Korea to LA (time of year dependent of course). That doesn't include hotel, and means that Koreans finishing in the bottom half don't make *any* money. Of course Europeans have the same travel problems, but foreign teams are more set up for travel with actual travel budgets (something Korean teams don't do to my knowledge), but even then they have to pick and choose where to send their players. Fnatic had a post about the cost prohibitions of sending players to train/compete in Korea after all. Last, the cost of living (and subsequently income) in Korea is lower than in (most of) Europe / America so what's a 'reasonable' price to the West for travel is actually much higher relatively speaking for Koreans. As to your first question are you serious? NASL having a different model (Online Season) doesn't mean that the request for a deposit is ridiculous. In fact to even question this seems kind of stupid considering this entire argument is validation for having that deposit be there. Blah, whatever it just seems so ridiculous that I am just going to move on. I don't think I ever argued that there was absolutely no hurdles but it just seems like the only perspective here is a Korean one about what they want to do. All I am saying is that if you look at a player like Puma and then tell me the travel expenses just don't match the potential upside expect me to act pretty damn surprised. Many of the Koreans had little trouble flying all the way out to MLG (much smaller prize pool) outside of the exchange to try to climb their way through the open bracket so I am sorry if I am pretty damn skeptical. This is all idle talk though because the real point is why should NASL care, after all they are a NA league. So if people want to participate from other places it shouldn't be their responsibility first and foremost to cover all the outside costs but just build the prize pool until it compensates for the costs. I guess I will end by saying that I think that maybe what I perceive as this Korean arrogance when it comes to spending travel money is just fostered by the MLG-GSL exchange system where players and teams just expect to be paid to go and win money and given ridiculous advantages when doing so. I am not saying that they aren't acting practically but what I am saying is that they shouldn't get a free pass for breaking contracts and probably severely damaging the legitimacy of the qualifying for S2.
You points may very well be valid or they may not be. But regardless you lose all credibility when you actually sit there and say lets all jump on the Korean hatewagon, in least in my eyes.
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Having a deposit when... American leagues have a history of evaporating (read: CPL) for 1 grand for a mostly online league is a bit steep.
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This unfortunate series of events is simply due to lost in translation...
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Many ppl think this changes facts! NO. There was a collective descision to deny participation, because as Korean they wanted premium seats... that's not how the world works, nobody can assume rights because you think you deserve a special status. This is hurting eSports... its like Federer and Nadal dont come to the US Open because they dont get free hotel and flight tickets, its absurd! I think everyone agrees.
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So much misinformation and crappy communication. It's sad that these mistakes probably caused an irreparable gap.
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On August 17 2011 05:31 epb1982 wrote: Many ppl think this changes facts! NO. There was a collective descision to deny participation, because as Korean they wanted premium seats... that's not how the world works, nobody can assume rights because you think you deserve a special status. This is hurting eSports... its like Federer and Nadal dont come to the US Open because they dont get free hotel and flight tickets, its absurd! I think everyone agrees. NEVER says stuff like "i think everyone agrees" 99.99% of the time you are wrong.
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On August 16 2011 14:59 SlipperySnake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2011 07:19 Wuster wrote:On August 16 2011 06:53 SlipperySnake wrote: they only have to play 1 match a week for 10 weeks and then pay for a weekend with a chance to win 100,000 dollars. I mean there are many North American players that would kill for that chance and to qualify and then just leave because they won't also pay to fly you to win their money seems pretty ridiculous Can you name another tournament that asks you to put a deposit down just to qualify? 10 weeks is a long time, and some of their management for Koreans wasn't the best. Making July wait from something like 2 am to 8 am, because they couldn't get White-Ra on the phone comes to mind. Then if you saw the amount of lag during some gamesRainbow - Morrow (the drop screen came up constantly) or Ensnare - Darkforce (Ensnare even asked for a delay to let the lag clear up, which they didn't allow) maybe the qualifier isn't so simple/easy for them. Also, let's be honest about how much money they can win. The 100k is split among the the 16 finalists. From last season's prize pool, finishing 5-8 net you 1.5k. Which is about the cost of a plane ticket from Korea to LA (time of year dependent of course). That doesn't include hotel, and means that Koreans finishing in the bottom half don't make *any* money. Of course Europeans have the same travel problems, but foreign teams are more set up for travel with actual travel budgets (something Korean teams don't do to my knowledge), but even then they have to pick and choose where to send their players. Fnatic had a post about the cost prohibitions of sending players to train/compete in Korea after all. Last, the cost of living (and subsequently income) in Korea is lower than in (most of) Europe / America so what's a 'reasonable' price to the West for travel is actually much higher relatively speaking for Koreans. As to your first question are you serious? NASL having a different model (Online Season) doesn't mean that the request for a deposit is ridiculous. In fact to even question this seems kind of stupid considering this entire argument is validation for having that deposit be there. Blah, whatever it just seems so ridiculous that I am just going to move on. I don't think I ever argued that there was absolutely no hurdles but it just seems like the only perspective here is a Korean one about what they want to do. All I am saying is that if you look at a player like Puma and then tell me the travel expenses just don't match the potential upside expect me to act pretty damn surprised. Many of the Koreans had little trouble flying all the way out to MLG (much smaller prize pool) outside of the exchange to try to climb their way through the open bracket so I am sorry if I am pretty damn skeptical. This is all idle talk though because the real point is why should NASL care, after all they are a NA league. So if people want to participate from other places it shouldn't be their responsibility first and foremost to cover all the outside costs but just build the prize pool until it compensates for the costs. I guess I will end by saying that I think that maybe what I perceive as this Korean arrogance when it comes to spending travel money is just fostered by the MLG-GSL exchange system where players and teams just expect to be paid to go and win money and given ridiculous advantages when doing so. I am not saying that they aren't acting practically but what I am saying is that they shouldn't get a free pass for breaking contracts and probably severely damaging the legitimacy of the qualifying for S2.
IPL is online and as far as I know neither of their seasons had a deposit. Same with TSL 3. Having a regular season where the players aren't compensated for but can be penalized is a new model. But I guess we can agree to disagree on this one.
If you only use Puma as an example of what can be achieved, then that's a fallacy. Boxer, Zenio, Alive all came out way behind. Even Squirtle and the other 5 - 8th place finishers probably didn't take home a whole lot, if anything.
Bringing up MLG is interesting, because for Columbus there were rumors/talk that Slayers wanted to send Boxer, Cella, *someone* to help out MMA. But guess what? They just didn't have the money. Of course MMA won and had an insanely huge response so Slayers was able to get some money for Ganzi and Alicia to show up at Anaheim.
Other than them, the only Korean team player was Choya, who was paid for by FXO, part of their close relationship that led to fOu getting bought by FXO of course. fOu, which should be noted, was struggling to make ends meet before the buy out.
I agree with you about the NASL though, they were too ambitious and were caught flatfooted when the Koreans applied en-mass to Season 1. Even though it was an international league (I don't believe it was ever intended to be NA only) it was a 'Western' league (see all the communication problems with non-English speaking managers/teams). And if the overall prize pool grows to the point where competing is worth your while, then the Koreans will happily come back without demands. But they obviously don't yet feel that way and got too hasty in signing up over the big prize pool. They definitely aren't blameless in this mess, but there's no reason to hate them or dismiss their concerns.
Korean teams just aren't very global to the extent that foreign teams are. Look at the sponsors of the Broodwar teams, how many have any presence outside of S. Korea? They just weren't set up to care about reaching out to the foreign scene. That's changing now and it's not surprising that the most global of the Korean teams (Slayers with Razer and Intel sponsorships) is the only one that actually sent players to Anaheim on their own dime. Nor is it surprisingly that many Korean teams have formed partnerships with foreign teams, I'm guessing to cover travel expenses rather than trying to squeeze money from their more local sponsors or events (Koreans had the same complaints with Dreamhack after all).
That last part is all speculation on my part though.
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I hope this issue eventually gets translated properly. From what I see in this article/translation it seems to me that SC2Con is turning into Kespa and making decisions for the players.
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On August 16 2011 07:19 Wuster wrote:
Of course Europeans have the same travel problems, but foreign teams are more set up for travel with actual travel budgets (something Korean teams don't do to my knowledge), but even then they have to pick and choose where to send their players. Fnatic had a post about the cost prohibitions of sending players to train/compete in Korea after all.
Doesnt matter you cant treat players different you have to treat them equal. EU players had the exact same problems they didnt do insane demands and didnt sign a contract to shortly after break it.
it feel like we dealing with primadonnas or something
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I loved Liquid Ret reaction on NASLtv... just as it is: the Korean's are stupid for claiming special treatment and missing the opportunity for great achievements and exposure! he said it all, simple and clear
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I'm still waiting to see how this thing will turn out, wonder if we ever get to hear the truth, go conspiracy theories!
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Eh, I think a lot of people are assuming malicious intent when I think the real situation was just gross miscommunication. That said, I do think the Koreans handled it...poorly. It's relatively dishonorable to pull out of a contract so late, and last time I checked honor still meant something in Korea.
To me, Boxer and SlayerS are the only ones who handled this correctly, in terms of pulling out early enough for the NASL to not be left high and dry. The way SC2Con handled it all wasn't real great. I think the Koreans absolutely have the right to refuse to play, but the timing was just really bad. This entire situation could have been avoided with better communication and earlier action by the Korean players and teams. If what we've read is the entire truth (and I'll admit it rarely is), than the NASL bent over backwards and for their effort got the short end of the stick. Again, I don't think the Koreans meant to do it that way, but that's how it happened, and it does look bad.
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