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On August 15 2011 10:46 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 09:52 jnsjr wrote:On August 15 2011 09:30 iKlutz wrote:
As someone said before, it's really hard to know whats going on with this whole situation at the moment, if the korean teams don't want to participate that is fair enough but the only crime i see being committed is the miss use of "S2con" in the original statement. The allegations about S2con's involvement weren't really allegations, NASL was just expressing it's worry over rumours that s2con was preventing teams from participating not claiming that they were doing so. Don't give NASL too much undeserved slack over this obviously they are going to be concerned if they thought something was going on. What about breaching a signed contract and putting the other party in a severe situation? How can you, and so many people on this forum not see how terrible that is or see that as a "crime"? NASL could be the worst run organization in the world; it doesn't mean that breaching a signed contract is all of a sudden alright, legally or morally (unless it was signed under some sort of duress, which is doubtful). The genius of this is that NASL doesn't really have any recourse, specific performance is out of the question, and a successful suit ending with a damage award would do nothing but hurt the scene, and make them even more hated. I can't even begin to imagine the ultimate damage to their image thanks to their mistake about SC2Con's involvement. Again, you can't discount the situation that they were put in after the contracts were signed. NASL is obviously not 100% guilt free, but they are NOT the people going back on their SIGNED WORD. I seem to recall that the contracts were not binding, and they were free to pull out. There was a post about that a while ago.
That makes no sense, a contract that's not binding isn't a contract. That's the whole point of one, to bind the parties to certain responsibilities and obligations. And to take it one step further, if they weren't binding that would mean that NASL could be like, "Well we arent gonna pay the winners their prize money, after all the contract isn't binding, so we are gonna pull out of our end of the deal"
Edit: If you could find that post, I would greatly appreciate it. This is the 1st time in the whole 2-3 days of this fiasco that anybody has said anything like that. I think that if that had been posted, people would remember it as it serves as a great argument against NASL. And the anti NASL grp would be using it ad nasuem.
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On August 15 2011 08:35 WizShaw wrote:
I love how everybody just eats up what was said instead of actually trying to read between the lines.
Everything said is always going to be PR based. EVERYTHING. That said, Pr is about positioning. And the truth probably lies somewhere in between.
This phrase comes to mind.
Everybody wants peace but secretly prepares for war. In other words, its best to secure your image but it is natural to positon yourself accordingly to acquire the most benefit.
This is a perfect example of that. Who knows what to believe.
I think "trying to read between the lines" is how people make asses of themselves. Why not rely on concrete statements instead of assuming something other than what was said? All the information isn't out there yet so it would be premature to say that something else has happened that is different from what is being said.
So far there aren't any contradictions from SC2Con's statements and other statements made by Koreans. The confusion mostly came from NASL's selective information reports that "read between the lines".
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Well for 11 people to simultaneously pulled out of a tournament at the same time, there must of been some sort of committee involved.
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This NASL thing seems to be falling apart. I really supported it at the startup and blindly bought everything...but now...
I hope they get their act together because the foreign starcraft scene needs the growth.
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oh god its going to be kespa all over again isn't it. Why when as soon as money becomes involved the darker sides of people seem to come out so quickly. Can't we all just get a long for the sake of eSports? Not blaming anyone, but I think the excuse of: "Korean players just didn't want to play in nasl, its not about money or sc2con" is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard. Chance to win big money, foreign fame, 95% free trip to america, that sounds like what almost every Korean player wants. I blame NASL and SC2CON both for greed and stupidity that harms eSports, shame on both parties, shame.
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On August 14 2011 22:01 flakmonkey wrote:
sC didn't wish to participate in NASL? That doesn't make any sense to me. Why would he attempt to qualify for the tournament in the first place?
jaeh makes me get a bad oppinion from sC making a quali and then not wanting to play is sad!
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I remember not so long ago when starcraft was about watching and playing in fun and entertaining games. These growing pains of e-sports becoming big business sure are a real pain in the rear. I often wish we could go back to simpler times.
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i think it's just the asian buisness model.
tell you one thing while doing the complete opposite, deny everything, say your the one under attack and that your the good guy while pointing fingers at somebody else.
China has been doing this sorta shit for decades over tibet, Japan has as well over chemical testing on prisoners of war and it wouldn't surprise me if the same thing was happening in other asian countrys.
What ever is going on over there... it's frustrating as fuck to have absolutely no transparency.
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Indeed the comments by NASL seem pretty baseless, it's sad that Koreans aren't participating but I think it strains foreigner-korean relationships when NASL comes out with comments that Sc2Con is blocking the participation of Koreans without any evidence, especially with all the other problems going on right now.
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On August 15 2011 12:15 Bodzilla wrote:
i think it's just the asian buisness model.
tell you one thing while doing the complete opposite, deny everything, say your the one under attack and that your the good guy while pointing fingers at somebody else.
China has been doing this sorta shit for decades over tibet, Japan has as well over chemical testing on prisoners of war and it wouldn't surprise me if the same thing was happening in other asian countrys.
What ever is going on over there... it's frustrating as fuck to have absolutely no transparency.
That is just an ignorant statement. Take a few examples from different countries and use it to make a derogatory blanket statement.
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Misunderstandings are ruining ESPORTS.
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On August 15 2011 08:58 two.watup wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:43 RavenLoud wrote:
It does leave the questions about FXO's withdrawal pretty much unanswered though... No it doesn't. FXO means fOu. As said in the OP, sC told his coach he didn't want to play. Answer answered.
I meant why they withdrew from S2con, but thanks.
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On August 15 2011 01:56 Doodsmack wrote:
After all this, as well as the EG/Puma issue, I would hope the TL community has learned its lesson about bringing out the pitchforks before hearing both sides of the story. Given the obvious communication issues between Korea and the west, I would hope TL mods do something to mitigate the impact of any future threads similar to Milkis's post on the EG/Puma issue and NASL's post on the present issue.
sadly.... i don't think anyone will change. Something i noticed about TL is that they have a really bad mob mentality or something.
anyway, on topic, when i think about all this, i think the koreans DID intend on playing in S2 (remember, qualifiers were done before s1 finals) but their opinions changed after the S1 finals for one reason or another so they wanted out. Really both parties r in the wrong here (koreans dropping out rather late and nasl blowing this up).
Nothing really left to do but to.. MOVE ON....
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this reeks of BS tbh, feels all wrong.
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On August 15 2011 13:06 sc14s wrote:
this reeks of BS tbh, feels all wrong.
'Cos the original NASL post made so much sense, right?
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I'm starting to feel like every thread i see is about someone apologizing to someone. I understand that it may be needed to bring koreans to foreign tournaments and vice versa but i just wish people would have a little bit thicker skin
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On August 15 2011 13:14 Dox wrote:'Cos the original NASL post made so much sense, right?
actually it did:
"they pulled out because we didn't give them enough and we're not bending over."
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On August 15 2011 10:53 Slider954 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 10:46 iamthedave wrote:On August 15 2011 09:52 jnsjr wrote:On August 15 2011 09:30 iKlutz wrote:
As someone said before, it's really hard to know whats going on with this whole situation at the moment, if the korean teams don't want to participate that is fair enough but the only crime i see being committed is the miss use of "S2con" in the original statement. The allegations about S2con's involvement weren't really allegations, NASL was just expressing it's worry over rumours that s2con was preventing teams from participating not claiming that they were doing so. Don't give NASL too much undeserved slack over this obviously they are going to be concerned if they thought something was going on. What about breaching a signed contract and putting the other party in a severe situation? How can you, and so many people on this forum not see how terrible that is or see that as a "crime"? NASL could be the worst run organization in the world; it doesn't mean that breaching a signed contract is all of a sudden alright, legally or morally (unless it was signed under some sort of duress, which is doubtful). The genius of this is that NASL doesn't really have any recourse, specific performance is out of the question, and a successful suit ending with a damage award would do nothing but hurt the scene, and make them even more hated. I can't even begin to imagine the ultimate damage to their image thanks to their mistake about SC2Con's involvement. Again, you can't discount the situation that they were put in after the contracts were signed. NASL is obviously not 100% guilt free, but they are NOT the people going back on their SIGNED WORD. I seem to recall that the contracts were not binding, and they were free to pull out. There was a post about that a while ago. That makes no sense, a contract that's not binding isn't a contract. That's the whole point of one, to bind the parties to certain responsibilities and obligations. And to take it one step further, if they weren't binding that would mean that NASL could be like, "Well we arent gonna pay the winners their prize money, after all the contract isn't binding, so we are gonna pull out of our end of the deal" Edit: If you could find that post, I would greatly appreciate it. This is the 1st time in the whole 2-3 days of this fiasco that anybody has said anything like that. I think that if that had been posted, people would remember it as it serves as a great argument against NASL. And the anti NASL grp would be using it ad nasuem.
It's quite a long time ago and I think it was in the other thread.
But if they have breached the contract, why aren't they being sued for doing so? I'm certain that it was stated they had a certain point where they could pull out of the contract, and they did so at close to the last moment. Presumably they were able to pull out up until the season actually began.
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On August 15 2011 12:34 RavenLoud wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 08:58 two.watup wrote:On August 15 2011 08:43 RavenLoud wrote:
It does leave the questions about FXO's withdrawal pretty much unanswered though... No it doesn't. FXO means fOu. As said in the OP, sC told his coach he didn't want to play. Answer answered. I meant why they withdrew from S2con, but thanks.
check out the thread by fxoboss about his dealings with SC2Con and their actions towards FXO. Basically sc2con wanted to change some things about FXO and Boss wouldnt have any of that. Boss declined to change his team and SC2con followed with threats and insults etc.
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On August 15 2011 13:36 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2011 10:53 Slider954 wrote:On August 15 2011 10:46 iamthedave wrote:On August 15 2011 09:52 jnsjr wrote:On August 15 2011 09:30 iKlutz wrote:
As someone said before, it's really hard to know whats going on with this whole situation at the moment, if the korean teams don't want to participate that is fair enough but the only crime i see being committed is the miss use of "S2con" in the original statement. The allegations about S2con's involvement weren't really allegations, NASL was just expressing it's worry over rumours that s2con was preventing teams from participating not claiming that they were doing so. Don't give NASL too much undeserved slack over this obviously they are going to be concerned if they thought something was going on. What about breaching a signed contract and putting the other party in a severe situation? How can you, and so many people on this forum not see how terrible that is or see that as a "crime"? NASL could be the worst run organization in the world; it doesn't mean that breaching a signed contract is all of a sudden alright, legally or morally (unless it was signed under some sort of duress, which is doubtful). The genius of this is that NASL doesn't really have any recourse, specific performance is out of the question, and a successful suit ending with a damage award would do nothing but hurt the scene, and make them even more hated. I can't even begin to imagine the ultimate damage to their image thanks to their mistake about SC2Con's involvement. Again, you can't discount the situation that they were put in after the contracts were signed. NASL is obviously not 100% guilt free, but they are NOT the people going back on their SIGNED WORD. I seem to recall that the contracts were not binding, and they were free to pull out. There was a post about that a while ago. That makes no sense, a contract that's not binding isn't a contract. That's the whole point of one, to bind the parties to certain responsibilities and obligations. And to take it one step further, if they weren't binding that would mean that NASL could be like, "Well we arent gonna pay the winners their prize money, after all the contract isn't binding, so we are gonna pull out of our end of the deal" Edit: If you could find that post, I would greatly appreciate it. This is the 1st time in the whole 2-3 days of this fiasco that anybody has said anything like that. I think that if that had been posted, people would remember it as it serves as a great argument against NASL. And the anti NASL grp would be using it ad nasuem. It's quite a long time ago and I think it was in the other thread. But if they have breached the contract, why aren't they being sued for doing so? I'm certain that it was stated they had a certain point where they could pull out of the contract, and they did so at close to the last moment. Presumably they were able to pull out up until the season actually began.
The reasons they won't sue is that they can't sue them to compel them to play and any monetary damages they could conceivably win would be dwarfed by the legal costs of such a lawsuit. Basically in that regard, they are fucked.
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EPT
