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On June 26 2011 18:13 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:+ Show Spoiler +To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
I hear what you're saying, but I don't think large tournaments segregating their competition and limiting their potential audience is the solution.
There needs to be more regional, mid-level tournaments like IPL, or a NA equivalent to Dreamhack or HomeStory Cup, to help bridge the gap as NA players try to catch up in skill level.
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koreans are arguably the most skillful players in the world. why would limit them from foreign events if they get far ?
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On June 26 2011 18:13 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..."
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament..
The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting.
Esports will never succeed.
Lmao I can't believe I just read that novel that can be summarized as "THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS". It's a video game buddy, if they are unable to put in the dedication to Starcraft that Koreans put in there are about a thousand other job opportunities (with much better all around pay) in the world besides Starcraft 2 pro gamer. Unless you're MC or Nestea you are not going to get rich off this game. Perhaps the best part of this is you pretending that it personally affects anyone except actual serious progamers. "If we dont' give ourselves room to make a living off of this"? Sorry bro I didn't exactly see you losing a heartbreaking series at MLG to MMA. It's a spectator sport that you watch on your computer, not a flood of immigrants coming in and stealing your chance to get into med school.
And there is only so many times I could watch a series between, say, Moman and Cruncher before I lol and stop watching Starcraft 2. Watching Koreans play the game is infinitely more amusing. Hundreds of Koreans dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to try to make it into GSL Code A, the foreigners who are seriously attempting to be real pro gamers will go to Korea and live like them. End of story.
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I think it should be everyone. We already have a few foreigners who can eat koreans for breakfast.
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On June 26 2011 18:35 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 18:13 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..."
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament..
The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting.
Esports will never succeed.
Lmao I can't believe I just read that novel that can be summarized as "THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS". It's a video game buddy, if they are unable to put in the dedication to Starcraft that Koreans put in there are about a thousand other job opportunities (with much better all around pay) in the world besides Starcraft 2 pro gamer. Unless you're MC or Nestea you are not going to get rich off this game. Perhaps the best part of this is you pretending that it personally affects anyone except actual serious progamers. "If we dont' give ourselves room to make a living off of this"? Sorry bro I didn't exactly see you losing a heartbreaking series at MLG to MMA. It's a spectator sport that you watch on your computer, not a flood of immigrants coming in and stealing your chance to get into med school. And there is only so many times I could watch a series between, say, Moman and Cruncher before I lol and stop watching Starcraft 2. Watching Koreans play the game is infinitely more amusing. Hundreds of Koreans dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to try to make it into GSL Code A, the foreigners who are seriously attempting to be real pro gamers will go to Korea and live like them. End of story.
Okay then going by your logic, the pro gamers that we have now are the only pro gamers we will ever have and that there will be no growth for e-sports. Your little brother will never aspire to be as good as you, and the game will die after a year or two. GG?
I might as well give up too, because I'll never be Nestea or MC.. right? No one asked to get rich off this game. The tournaments now are already top heavy as fuck. Making an equivalent of $10 an hour would satisfy me, because I would be able to sustain myself from starving to death and pay my internet and heat bill while I did what I had passion for... no one is asking to get rich off the game.
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On June 26 2011 18:39 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 18:35 Heavenly wrote:On June 26 2011 18:13 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..."
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament..
The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting.
Esports will never succeed.
Lmao I can't believe I just read that novel that can be summarized as "THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS". It's a video game buddy, if they are unable to put in the dedication to Starcraft that Koreans put in there are about a thousand other job opportunities (with much better all around pay) in the world besides Starcraft 2 pro gamer. Unless you're MC or Nestea you are not going to get rich off this game. Perhaps the best part of this is you pretending that it personally affects anyone except actual serious progamers. "If we dont' give ourselves room to make a living off of this"? Sorry bro I didn't exactly see you losing a heartbreaking series at MLG to MMA. It's a spectator sport that you watch on your computer, not a flood of immigrants coming in and stealing your chance to get into med school. And there is only so many times I could watch a series between, say, Moman and Cruncher before I lol and stop watching Starcraft 2. Watching Koreans play the game is infinitely more amusing. Hundreds of Koreans dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to try to make it into GSL Code A, the foreigners who are seriously attempting to be real pro gamers will go to Korea and live like them. End of story. Okay then going by your logic, the pro gamers that we have now are the only pro gamers we will ever have and that there will be no growth for e-sports. Your little brother will never aspire to be as good as you, and the game will die after a year or two. GG?
You seriously have some of the worst arguments I've ever heard and I literally have no clue what you are talking about.
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If foreign players can't beat Koreans then the Koreans deserve to take our jobs. It's as simple as that. Only the best will survive in this job, and it just shows that some people are racist and think because they're yellow they're better. If foreigner took the Korean training regiment then I think we can produce some bonjwa's easily, until then we will be at the bottom relying on HuK to win more :\
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I think A-Class professional foreigners like HuK, IdrA, Jinro, White-Ra, Morrow, Dimaga ....will survive in the scene and continue to improve. B-Class professional foreigners will disappear from the scene and will give up playing, if they can't even show up the smallest amount of success. Any foreign/korean player who does not devote his life to SC2 with the right amount of talent and skill will in the long term disappear from the scene. Thats true for everyone.
Viewers will profit from this. I am tired of watching so many bad skilled foreigners on tournaments and ladder streams. Maybe foreigners start to take the game more serious and devote more time from their life becoming better players.
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Let them all come. When second class Koreans kill the best Whites, so be it.
Just one deviation: force them to use their proper IDs, so we know who we are dealing with.
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On June 26 2011 07:26 Q(-_-Q wrote:
Why do people care if Koreans come and take the money in our tournaments? The best player should win the cash.
Well i guess the basic reasoning (Which i may add is flawed logic)
#SO that our White and black knights can win the money and be inspired to be a pro gamer and inspire a generation
flawed logic # How to expect to get as good as the koreans without playing the koreans. oh yeah its only practice/. (Rolls eyes)
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On June 26 2011 18:40 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 18:39 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:On June 26 2011 18:35 Heavenly wrote:On June 26 2011 18:13 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..."
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament..
The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting.
Esports will never succeed.
Lmao I can't believe I just read that novel that can be summarized as "THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS". It's a video game buddy, if they are unable to put in the dedication to Starcraft that Koreans put in there are about a thousand other job opportunities (with much better all around pay) in the world besides Starcraft 2 pro gamer. Unless you're MC or Nestea you are not going to get rich off this game. Perhaps the best part of this is you pretending that it personally affects anyone except actual serious progamers. "If we dont' give ourselves room to make a living off of this"? Sorry bro I didn't exactly see you losing a heartbreaking series at MLG to MMA. It's a spectator sport that you watch on your computer, not a flood of immigrants coming in and stealing your chance to get into med school. And there is only so many times I could watch a series between, say, Moman and Cruncher before I lol and stop watching Starcraft 2. Watching Koreans play the game is infinitely more amusing. Hundreds of Koreans dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to try to make it into GSL Code A, the foreigners who are seriously attempting to be real pro gamers will go to Korea and live like them. End of story. Okay then going by your logic, the pro gamers that we have now are the only pro gamers we will ever have and that there will be no growth for e-sports. Your little brother will never aspire to be as good as you, and the game will die after a year or two. GG? You seriously have some of the worst arguments I've ever heard and I literally have no clue what you are talking about.
I think he's trying to say that if there is no infrastructure in place for North Americans to develop, the NA player pool will continue to shrink and plateau at the semi-pro/amateur level, similar to the days of Broodwar. The Koreans will simply dominate the tournament scene and the foreigner scene will begin to contract.
It's a pretty pessimistic perspective, but entirely possible.
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when i watch a tournament, i want real competion, and when i watch a tournament held in europe or america, i want to see europeans and americans involved in said competion.
at the moment i do not feel the need to complain, because i think we have some great european/american players that GSLchampions like mc may beat in the end, but it is not steamrolling from my point of view.
should "our" players however end up as cannonfodder in "our" tournaments, so to say that "our" scene really got left behind in the dust by the korean scene, i would certainly lose interest in european/american tournaments i only watch the GSL, and while i am not more than a single viewer, i could imagine that the overall popularity of sc2 as an Esport decreases in europe/america (followed by a lack of sponsors and the shutdown of events and leagues), then, and only then a separation of the scenes would be plausible in order to keep things interesting (like only invite some codeA players, instead of opening the gates for an unstoppable force of CodeS veterans)
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On June 26 2011 17:33 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 16:38 navara wrote:On June 26 2011 16:33 acker wrote:On June 26 2011 16:19 navara wrote:
it has nothing to do with racisme. Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner. We should restrict Koreans from tournaments because they train like crazy to make a living off of Starcraft 2? Fantastic logic -.- also that's absolutly not what i implied xD. but i knew someone would fall in there. if you want my own opinion, more korean better for me (cuz i'm mostly a spectator). but that's kinda hypocritical to me cuz i'll never be progamer... The alternative explanation, of course, is that you think Koreans are magically endowed with cash. But that's just silly. And you aren't a silly person 
so "Korean do play for their living. they have arguably an avantage above foreigner"
either imply that i think they should be restricted or that korean are magically endowed with cash?
i can undestand you have a hard time with my poor english.
but you'd better not talk about logic if not.
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On June 26 2011 18:13 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..."
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament..
The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting.
Esports will never succeed.
This is a huge rant that has tons of holes/flat assertions. I'll spend more time detailing the problems later, but I'll do you a service and write out your points in a clear and straightforward way:
A: Koreans will auto-win over foreigners.
B: point A is because foreigners do not have the financial backing to sustain as committed a sc2 lifestyle as koreans
C: foreigners don't need interaction with Koreans to grow in skill level/be as competitive as them
First on A: This is easily settled by a very recent event that you may have heard of: Dreamhack. But of course, two statements will come from you: A] that Huk is essentially "Korean" and B] Koreans still took the rest of the podium. Now, I will agree that Koreans are better because of sheer work ethic. However, the identication of "Korean" based on work ethic is a tautological fallacy. If you define foreigners as those who "work less," obviously foreigners will always be inferior to Koreans on balance. I also made a longer post on this labeling in a previous thread:
+ Show Spoiler +On June 09 2011 07:23 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 05:47 MonkSEA wrote:On June 09 2011 05:34 SuperStyle wrote:On June 09 2011 02:37 rysecake wrote:On June 08 2011 16:50 tianGO wrote:On June 08 2011 16:46 rysecake wrote:On June 08 2011 16:42 tianGO wrote:
Select is korean.
I voted Thorzain. You're a moron. Select is a foreigner. You don't call him a Korean because of his skin color, you call him one if he trains in Korea. Huk is more korean than select sorry. I am a moron because I call "a korean" someone who was born in Korea? OK. Yes. Idk why it's so hard for people to understand that the training regime is what makes you "korean". So basically you're saying koreans are just better by blood? I disagree. Select, while a korean by blood, has been playing sc2 in the US since release, and is thus considered a foreigner in skill. Funny how people always bring up the argument that "the training is what makes koreans better" then decide to call select, a player who has never trained in korea, korean. Tell me why we only listed the "koreans" at mlg as july,mma,losira,moon, and mc then? Because these guys are the real "koreans". They train and live in a korean house. Select does not. So Huk, Jinro, Moonglade and Idra are Korean, while Select is American. This is just in people, your not a Korean unless you train like a Korean, sucks for you ordinary people that live in Korea and dont play SC because u, by the standards of this genius i quoted, have no country. I mean ive seen trolls and douchebags in my life but you sir just took the game to the next level. Edit: I hope for the sake of people that do not have a single digit IQ that this thread gets closed. Also you should read this "story" by hotbid: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=102411¤tpage=5#81 You're taking it to literal. I agree that SeleCT is Korean, but his a foreigner to the Korean scene. He worded it pretty much spot on as saying anyone who is in on the Korean scene is a Korean. HuK, Jinro and mOOn are all Koreans per say, because they live and practice in Korea. IdrA only practices 2-3 hours a day and his not on the Korean Scene any more, so he is hardly Korean. And before you call someone a troll and a douchebag and then you, yourself act like a troll and a douchebag you might want to look in the mirror and evaluate yourself and where you want to be in life. The claim that "anyone in the Korean scene = Korean" defeats the point of a Korea vs. foreigner categorization in the first place if players can easily shift from one to the other just by moving to a different country. The "lifestyle/training regimen" distinction doesn't make any sense either - foreigners are starting sc2 houses outside of Korea (Sweden, US [Arizona]). Are they therefore Koreans? Now inevitably someone will respond saying "but foreigner houses only play 6-8 hours a day, Koreans do 10+!" but there's no clear brightline as to when a specific number of hours define them as Korean, as it's absurdly arbitrary to draw the line at any point and therefore claim that "9 hours a day makes you a Korean but 8.5 does not!" Nor does the immersion in the "Korean scene" make any sense. Moon, for instance, frequently competes in foreigner tournaments, even having membership in a foreigner league (NASL). Is he therefore not a Korean? What about foreigners who have Korean SC2 accounts and play on those severs a bunch? Here, too, the line is almost impossible to draw. Let's be real, guys. The "korean-foreigner" distinction is one borne of nationality. As much as we know how logically silly it is to base things off arbitrary borderlines and accidents of birth,we still root for teams and countries in the olympics, the world cup, and countless other sports and areas. Likewise, in starcraft 2 we root along nationalistic ideologies - cause it's just darn fun.
There are countless other examples: ThorZain's win against MC [they were both in Europe] in TSL3, Jinro in Korea, foreigner wins in the NASL group stages. I will agree that on balance Koreans display better results, but remember that Koreans do often send their higher tier players to foreigner tournaments. For instance, while comparably lesser known Korean players succeeded in the NASL open, there was likewise a lack of big foreigner names with those such as Dimaga dropping for the tournament while at HSC3. What this does prove, however, is that A: the initial skill gap isn't that large, and B: foreigners can reach that same level with the same work ethic (eg Huk).
This leads into your point B: foreigners don't have the money to sustain that. This is blatantly false. This is not BW where the TSL was actually one of the very few notable foreigner tournaments. Tons of prize money and tournaments abound for foreigners, from perennial showmatches to $100 cups to the MLG, IPL, NASL, Black Dragon League, Dreamhack, and IEM tournaments. There is also a ton more sponsors for SC2, at least in monetary amount, as the prize money of tens of thousands for things like Dreamhack, TSL3, NASL, and countless more prove. Direct sponsorship is also huge: look at Whitera aka DuckloadRa who also received sponsorship from TTesports. Or look at FXOpen, who hasn't yet achieved a presence as any dominant foreigner team, yet has received the sponsorship to go to Korea and host countless big tournaments. Look at the creation of foreigner prohouses. Hell, Team Liquid proves that there are opportunities for foreign players to play like a Korean. There is definitely much more opportunity for foreigners to create that same work ethic.
Now your last point, C: that foreigners don't need to compete with Koreans to be as competitive with them. First, your Bobsledding analogy is ridiculously terrible. Bobsledding is an individualistic competition, it's entirely based on your individual performance, so obviously there is no benefit from interaction with others. SC2, however, is heavily reliant on practice and experience against other players. You also claim that foreigners remain challenged in their own scene, but this isn't true. IdrA, for instance, was known for practicing a ton while in the Korean scene, but has lessened his practice by ridiculous amounts when moving back to the US because he feels that things like only 3 hours of practice a day are enough to deal with foreign competition. And of course, look at guys like Huk and Jinro.
Yes, we do cheer for our own home teams and favorite players, but we also want to see them win against the best of the best. People aren't going to SOLELY watch the best of the best, but it's far better to see the best of the best. I, for one, do not watch random cups and small tournaments, nor do I watch even my most favorite players' vods against random ladder kids. I watch their games in high-stakes tournaments against tough competition, because it's that very nature of competition and quality thereof that adds excitement.
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On June 26 2011 18:50 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 18:40 Heavenly wrote:On June 26 2011 18:39 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:On June 26 2011 18:35 Heavenly wrote:On June 26 2011 18:13 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans.
It's only going to get worse.
StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2.
Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2.
I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them...
So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends.
9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc)
The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..."
Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years...
Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not.
That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up.
You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game.
In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY.
The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west.
"Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people"
Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way.
Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS.
Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ?
If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place.
If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft.
Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer.
The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft.
If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick?
I think I'd go with the latter.
Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments?
It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go.
Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold.
Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have?
You all say you want to see "the best of the best"..
do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank.
It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament..
The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting.
Esports will never succeed.
Lmao I can't believe I just read that novel that can be summarized as "THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS". It's a video game buddy, if they are unable to put in the dedication to Starcraft that Koreans put in there are about a thousand other job opportunities (with much better all around pay) in the world besides Starcraft 2 pro gamer. Unless you're MC or Nestea you are not going to get rich off this game. Perhaps the best part of this is you pretending that it personally affects anyone except actual serious progamers. "If we dont' give ourselves room to make a living off of this"? Sorry bro I didn't exactly see you losing a heartbreaking series at MLG to MMA. It's a spectator sport that you watch on your computer, not a flood of immigrants coming in and stealing your chance to get into med school. And there is only so many times I could watch a series between, say, Moman and Cruncher before I lol and stop watching Starcraft 2. Watching Koreans play the game is infinitely more amusing. Hundreds of Koreans dedicate a huge chunk of their lives to try to make it into GSL Code A, the foreigners who are seriously attempting to be real pro gamers will go to Korea and live like them. End of story. Okay then going by your logic, the pro gamers that we have now are the only pro gamers we will ever have and that there will be no growth for e-sports. Your little brother will never aspire to be as good as you, and the game will die after a year or two. GG? You seriously have some of the worst arguments I've ever heard and I literally have no clue what you are talking about. I think he's trying to say that if there is no infrastructure in place for North Americans to develop, the NA player pool will continue to shrink and plateau at the semi-pro/amateur level, similar to the days of Broodwar. The Koreans will simply dominate the tournament scene and the foreigner scene will begin to contract. It's a pretty pessimistic perspective, but entirely possible.
Its a retarded perspective. There are also foreigner pros who are being sent over there to train. Do you want the scene to end up revolving around "Naniwa and Thorzain stayed in Korea for a year, now they came back and they have won every tournament because they have super amazing Korean skills"? IdrA tried it out and wasn't exactly successful but he was never well integrated into the system beyond massing ladder games and he left in a time when Starcraft 2 was less figured out. Huk is already doing it. How would it 'promote esports' to watch Huk, Naniwa, Thorzain, and possibly IdrA take every single tournament? Is it better because they are white or something?
Without Koreans and Korean trained players lately we would have been something like IdrA or Naniwa winning Dreamhack. Homestory Cup would've been won by Naniwa if he doesn't win already. MLG would have been IdrA or Naniwa, maybe Thorzain. NASL would probably go to IdrA or Naniwa with Thorzain probably coming from the open bracket to get in as well. Wow that sounds so much more exciting than watching MC, July, Losira, etc. participate doesn't it! I especially liked the part where I can relate because we all speak English.
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If foreigners don't want to practice as much as koreans, then koreans deserve to win ... everything.
They are even playing with slight handicaps on the eu / na servers, so what's the problem?
The best players should participate and win. If that means that the serious foreigners have to move to korea ... it seems that gomtv is open for that solution. It seems that was a possibility for huk, jinro ... certainly others as well?
It's just basically like this: do you want to sacrifice pretty much all your time, to improve in e-sports? It's a full time job, or even a bit more than a full time job? Most foreigners would say ... no. A lot more koreans would say ... hell yeah.
Do those that say yes deserve to win? Imho, yes.
Idra even said that he went from practicing korean style, to practicing 3 hours or so a day when he left korea. That's basically giving himself one third of the practice time as koreans. He was actually among the very best (imho, second best zerg in the world when he left korea). Now ... he is, again imho, a bit further down on the ranking. And that is, again my opinion, likely because he practice a lot less compared to those he compete against.
Look at Huk ... he has become so much better since he went to korea ...
I think that in the future, yes, for e-sports to grow outside korea, it needs to mean professional gamers - not just players doing it on their free time, and getting a nice income on the side from it.
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So far its been easy money for them and some of the prize pools are pretty big. The way i see it everyone else picks up their game, or they lose. I think its a good thing for the viewers, for the players it sucks, seems like it was hard enough to make a living off pro-gaming, hopefuly all the progaming houses survive and people dont have to go to Korea to get that sort of environment.
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i love it, not only we can see top koreans vs top foreigns casted by top casters, we also have the possibility to see so many replays of the koreans
over all it closes the gap between koreans and foreigns
until now it are only most 2nd class korans playing good foreigns so i not see ANY problem there.
cause i think the koreans are really strong but still i cant see players like hwasing beating Huk or Naniwa so if the top foreign plays in this tournaments too, i think they will win too
best player have to win no max for 1 country plz
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It amazes me that there are so many doomsday views here.
MMA sums up the mentality people needs to win when he "hopes that Idra learns to be positive". The foreign scene definitely needs to keep staying positive in order to compete with the Koreans. If all we look at is that "We can never compete with their infrastructure", there will never be progress.
If this mentality doesn't change, Koreans will keep winning even if they destroy their own CCs.
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I think it would be completely racist of me to say theres anything wrong with koreans playing in our tourneys, or even worse, deny them the right to participate. I can understand why people would want recognizable foreigners winning their online tourneys as opposed to lesser known koreans, but really, the solution to that isn't to "outlaw" koreans from our tourneys, it's to get better lol.
If we didn't allow koreans in our tourneys, not only would that come off as racist and put more distance between Korea and the rest of the world, but we'd be living in a bubble where WE were the "best" at SC2 - except if the koreans were allowed, they'd kick our ass. I dunno about you guys, but i'd rather our players keep getting better by facing koreans than see generally bad play in every foreigner tournament compared to the GSL/Korean weekly.
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EPT
