EPTThe Korean Online Invasion - what do you prefer? - Page 17
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
It's up to the tournament organizers, but I for one would like to see the best players participate. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
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Fatze
Germany1342 Posts
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Mithriel
Netherlands2969 Posts
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frantic.cactus
New Zealand164 Posts
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alepov
Netherlands1132 Posts
On June 26 2011 07:25 GuTTuRaLPanda wrote: Is that the Puma that beat Nal_ra at the end of his TV-show? Edit : OnT I actually dont want the koreans participating in the foreigner online tourneys. I want to be able to recognise every top 16 player of a tournament and know a little about them, not random korean practice partners that roll over every european with überprecised timing attacks. So, for example, you'd prefer watching a couple of your overweight neighbours running a race than watching some top athletes, just because you know them? | ||
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valaki
Hungary2476 Posts
On June 26 2011 19:25 frantic.cactus wrote: The best foreigners will rise up to the challenge and compete on an even keel with the Koreans. I really hope so. In sc1, you could say the foreigners started kinda late except for a few, there weren't any tourneys, pro houses and generally there weren't any money in foreigner sc1. But with this exploding fame of sc2, none of these are an issue. | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On June 26 2011 19:26 alepov wrote: So, for example, you'd prefer watching a couple of your overweight neighbours running a race than watching some top athletes, just because you know them? Lol apparently. Also, if it wasn't for the Koreans IdrA, Thorzain, Naniwa, and Huk would have pretty much been top 4 in every tournament lately. How exciting to watch those four always duke it out and wonder what it would be like if Koreans came to play them. People should consider themselves lucky that MC is the only one trying to make easy money in most major tournaments, these things would be a lot more one-sided if Nestea, Bomber, MVP, and MKP showed up. | ||
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Zaurus
Singapore676 Posts
On June 26 2011 18:13 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans. It's only going to get worse. StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2. Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2. I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them... So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends. 9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc) The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..." Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years... Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not. That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up. You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game. In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY. The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west. "Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people" Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way. Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS. Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ? If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place. If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft. Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer. The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft. If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick? I think I'd go with the latter. Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments? It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go. Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold. Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have? You all say you want to see "the best of the best".. do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank. It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament.. The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting. Esports will never succeed. If you are so determine to succeed, train hard and get a decent skill level. Learn Korean language, show your dedication and get pick up by a Korean team. Train hard and treat SC2 like a job. Stop using stupid excuses like "we have to work". The standard of living in Korea is so much freaking higher, and the competition there is so much tougher. What makes you think the Koreans are having an easier time compared to Europeans and the Americans? Almost all the PRO teams in the west and being sponsored, they are just not pulling the results to justify it. Do you want government intervention to stop the "foreigners" from stealing your job or force companies to sponsor local E-Sports? If the west starts training like the Koreans, do you think they will have problems finding sponsors? WAKE up your idea of finding the easy way out. Shame. | ||
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Silver~Guy
Canada45 Posts
I think this is an interesting topic for a variety of reasons already outlined. I'll focus on a couple points in this post. From what I read, it boils down to if we Should support Korea being the mecca of Starcraft 2 or move towards a few different hubs internationally? Your position on this issue will decide the stance you take concerning protectionism and the subsequent fostering of a gaming culture that might follow. An example might help persuade some of you of the benefits of protectionism for an industry, for often free trade dogma is accepted unchallenged, but we should look a bit deeper to fully understand what it means to be globalized. Specifically we can use Korea's automotive industry as the example. In the 1960s, the Korean Government wanting to facilitate wealth creation and manufacturing in the country; they saught to move Korea from just assembling Japanese automobiles to actually making their own. They decided they would foster growth of the automobile industry by implementing tariffs on foreign competition and subsidies for domestic industry. Through a few decades, a booming auto industry was developed that now places Korea as one of the top 10 manufacturers in the world. 50 Years ago, who would of thought that was possibly? The new benefits for cars in general, specific to this industry in Korea, include fuel cell innovations and new gas-electric hybrid systems. As a side note, this new middle class that was created through Korea's development during this same time, was ready to define some new cultural traditions like gaming... While free trade and open boarder policies may work very well in promoting efficiency of any given market, such as the automobile market or in this case, the competition of Starcraft 2, it may also undermine the sovereignty of any region and lend itself to a hierarchy, that in the long term, actually would reduce the amount of unique viable competition. In that sense, something is lost (or perhaps, never gained) in the reduction, or prevention, of diversity and you could posit that there would be a loss of potential innovation and even efficiency gains from not growing a more thoroughly competitive domestic market. Perhaps you could consider the World Cup of soccer as an example of how different regions develop their own play styles that compete within the same of the game and create dynamic match ups within those parameters. While the World Cup is played between the best of the best, there are many smaller leagues throughout the world for domestic competition to take place and for some, to support themselves from this. Then again, as energy and food prices continue to inflate, the cost of living pressures may point us towards a single country where a gaming culture is viable since it will be prohibitively expensive to promote of a class of people who exist to pursue that which is not necessary for the sustenance of daily life (this is a broader critique of many careers, but especially an e-sport as it has more material and energy requirements beyond many other sports). Ultimately, I believe the capability of foreigners to earn a living wage from Starcraft will be decided by the fans and community that spring up around the game, and how much passion they develop, and how contagious it is (remember, that in Korea, everyone plays the game). There are many factors at play, but I think with everything considered and so far done, we should give a hat tip to all those doing their utmost to promote the culture that will decide this, from the players, to the fans, to the commentators, to the community organizers, who have all been been brave enough to follow their passions and continue to inspire us. Most recently, the Home Story Cup Tournament promotes a really down to earth culture of gaming that I suspect acts as one of the better archetypes of tournaments we outside of Korea could most easily promote, support, and most importantly, afford. | ||
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AnalThermometer
Vatican City State334 Posts
On June 26 2011 19:24 Mithriel wrote: Its like Rolland Garros saying to Nadal he cant participate so Federer can win. Thats wrong, so is excluding koreans. I hope this just leads to western players to buckle up and practice. I'd say its a bit different from that. More similar to a country like India starting up tennis tournaments with generous money prizes which are supposed to go to local players to help their development, but having Federer / Nadal fly over there and destroy them every time and take the money. Most people are basically boiling the arguments down to "racist!" or "just practice more". Lol. Difficult for foreign pros to practice more when they might have to make a living doing eSports related work or just a plain old job, while many Koreans get a place to stay on the cheap or even free when they join a team. There's also economic differences, for example a player living in the USA may need a much higher living wage from a team than a promising player picked up from China who will play for 1/10th the cost. All these things and others mean Koreans will never be toppled from online tournaments if you nip the foreign scene in the bud. More difficult to give it patience and time to grow than give in to selfish fans saying "I want to see the best play and i want it now!!!". IMO. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
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Mithriel
Netherlands2969 Posts
On June 26 2011 19:51 AnalThermometer wrote: I'd say its a bit different from that. More similar to a country like India starting up tennis tournaments with generous money prizes which are supposed to go to local players to help their development, but having Federer / Nadal fly over there and destroy them every time and take the money. Most people are basically boiling the arguments down to "racist!" or "just practice more". Lol. Difficult for foreign pros to practice more when they might have to make a living doing eSports related work or just a plain old job, while many Koreans get a place to stay on the cheap or even free when they join a team. There's also economic differences, for example a player living in the USA may need a much higher living wage from a team than a promising player picked up from China who will play for 1/10th the cost. All these things and others mean Koreans will never be toppled from online tournaments if you nip the foreign scene in the bud. More difficult to give it patience and time to grow than give in to selfish fans saying "I want to see the best play and i want it now!!!". IMO. It is actually exactly the same. If Federer and Nadal would go to that tournament, they have a big chance of winning. However, because they show up, more people will want to watch it, the tournament is able to get more sponsors which should lead to an impulse for the sport. Also by having the best of the best the younger players would learn something, instead of 2avg level players fighting it out which noone really improves from. If it would just be to local people, noone would bother watching the tournament (except a few locals) and there would be limited growth opportunities. I guess it comes down to if you want the starcraft 2 scene to be one big global scene or just a fragmented scene. | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On June 26 2011 20:10 Mithriel wrote: It is actually exactly the same. If Federer and Nadal would go to that tournament, they have a big chance of winning. However, because they show up, more people will want to watch it, the tournament is able to get more sponsors which should lead to an impulse for the sport. Also by having the best of the best the younger players would learn something, instead of 2avg level players fighting it out which noone really improves from. If it would just be to local people, noone would bother watching the tournament (except a few locals) and there would be limited growth opportunities. I guess it comes down to if you want the starcraft 2 scene to be one big global scene or just a fragmented scene. I think you're misunderstanding it. Every sport needs tournaments to be held at multiple levels to allow new talent to grow at grassroots. For example even in athletics, you have national level, state level and county level meets which are open only for people of the same country/region/county. Also you have games that are classified by age group level (junior/senior etc.). There is a reason that such a system exists. This system allows people to identify the raw talent at lower levels and then pick up such talents and train them and allow them to grow to a national/international level. Bringing in big names into such tournaments will only make it hard to identify the upcoming talent, and perhaps even make some of those upcomers hesitate from even entering the tournament. Edit: Also there are two distinct viewpoints here, one is the spectator viewpoint and the other is player viewpoint. From a spectator viewpoint, I'd say hell yeah, bring in only the top level players, only the fittest will survive. But from a player viewpoint I'd say that its essential to have tournaments of both kinds - the top level tournaments like MLG, Dreamhack, GSL, IEM and the likes which are open to everyone. At the same time its good to have 500$ tournaments which are open only to people of the same region. (perhaps US only tournaments and EU only tournaments). | ||
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anatem
Romania1369 Posts
it's all about the skills getting honed through competition, regardless of nationality, we need the highest quality starcraft we can get. | ||
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StimMarine
723 Posts
On June 26 2011 19:54 sitromit wrote: There are 6 Europeans in the final 16 of NASL, is that stifling the growth of NA e-sports? How come no one complains about that? How come there are no threads about German and Swedish players swooping in and stealing the monies of poor North American pro-gamers? Hit the nail on the head. The whole 'foreigner' vs 'korea' thing has strong white vs. non-white undertones, subtly and maybe sub-consciously masked to look more justifiable on the surface. I don't see the proponents of keeping Koreans out of tournaments as anything more than closet racists. Good to know that 89% or more people are good people. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On June 26 2011 20:28 StimMarine wrote: Hit the nail on the head. The whole 'foreigner' vs 'korea' thing has strong white vs. non-white undertones, subtly and maybe sub-consciously masked to look more justifiable on the surface. I don't see the proponents of keeping Koreans out of tournaments as anything more than closet racists. Good to know that 89% or more people are good people. They're not racist. They just hate Koreans. Kiiiiiiiiiiddddddddddiiiiiiiigggggggg. | ||
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Mithriel
Netherlands2969 Posts
On June 26 2011 20:22 Piledriver wrote: I think you're misunderstanding it. Every sport needs tournaments to be held at multiple levels to allow new talent to grow at grassroots. For example even in athletics, you have national level, state level and county level meets which are open only for people of the same country/region/county. Also you have games that are classified by age group level (junior/senior etc.). There is a reason that such a system exists. This system allows people to identify the raw talent at lower levels and then pick up such talents and train them and allow them to grow to a national/international level. Bringing in big names into such tournaments will only make it hard to identify the upcoming talent, and perhaps even make some of those upcomers hesitate from even entering the tournament. I agree that we need tournaments on multiple levels, however i thought we quite a bit of those. There's quite a lot of weekly cups and smaller tournament. I mean the SC2 Tournament section is exploding. There is plenty of room for up and coming players to make a splash (or at least so i think). So in this comparison the smaller tournaments and LANs are the regional tournaments and the big ones (MLG, Dreamhack, GSL) are like the grand slams. | ||
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GizmoPT
Portugal3040 Posts
cause imagine that at the final events only koreans appear that wont be as exciting.. look at it as a Soccer world cup if all countries tryied to qualify together north american team or asian would never be at the cup lol i think that to make it fair each region should have their own qualifier and people shouldnt qualify in other ppls region if you are that good then qualify in your region i like that they go to tournaments i just dont like to see like US qualifiers with only europeans and koreans in final stages.. think everyone should qualify in their region | ||
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