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On June 26 2011 07:38 Kraznaya wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 07:33 Mordiford wrote:On June 26 2011 07:30 TheSilverfox wrote:On June 26 2011 07:20 Mordiford wrote:
By the way, your poll is slightly misleading, IPL isn't explicitly excluding Koreans from the qualifiers which is sort of what that poll option implies, it's a regional limitation to North America and Europe, players in other regions can't play for logistics reasons but the IPL has expressed interest in expanding to more regions in the future. It's very different from, "No koreans should be invited". Well, they do. Koreans with NA accounts couldn't participate in the IPL Season 2. To quote Alex from IGN: "No, you must be living in EU/NA/LA to play." Yeah, that's a region lock, that's not, "No koreans allowed" as the poll implies when listing IPL. It was done for logistics reasons and they hope to expand to new regions in the future(including Korea). People in Japan, Australia etc weren't allowed to play either, it was regional. It's still blatantly discriminatory. "Logistics" issues implies laziness or lack of interest in ensuring equality of opportunity and fair competition. There isn't actually any real burden on the tournament hosts to allow people from outside regional boundaries who own NA accounts to play, so I have lost a ton of respect for IGN for having done this.
Wait, what? You're implying that competitions with restrictions on region are discriminatory?
Well. Lol.
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Personally, I think there needs to be a healthy balance between region specific tournaments which require you to be playing from the region the tournament is being played on, i.e. EU only, NA only, SEA only, KR only etc, and global tournaments which allow anyone to enter provided they have an account available on the hosting region's servers.
This way you can foster a healthy local scene (as we have seen develop in EU), as well as bridge connection's between the different regions.
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The foreigners must learn it the hard way! If you're practicing not as much and not as efficient as the koreans, you shoudn't win anything!
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On June 26 2011 20:48 GizmoPT wrote:
i really thinking that koreans europeans dominating US tournaments wont help starcraft grow but ok
i mean stuff like mlg is awesome now imagine that mlg only had online qualifers.. then at event there would be like 0 americans lol why would americans want to watch it ?
i mean i wouldnt mind watching a portuguese guy getting rotflstomped in a cup i dont care but i would watch it cause people like to see people that they cant identify with..
i think that if there are regional qualifiers then make them regional.. like those zenex guys if there was a korean regional they would go nowhere.. and you guys are saying they are the best ?...
what would you guys prefer watching a 20 koreans final or a finals with the best of each region battling it out ?
i mean why did people loved the team war of World vs Koreans ? just saying...
I actually quite enjoy watching GSL, and believe that players like Naniwa, and to a lesser extent IdrA and Thorzain have shown that they can hang with the best of the best of Koreans. The rest of NA/EU just needs to catch up. And why aren't you complaining about Europeans at MLG and other tournies? Seems like they're doing a lot better than Americans, are you less interested in their matches too?
Also, I don't think ~200 Korean players would travel to the US for every MLG, but if they did, that would be AWESOME. If European soccer teams were to play games in the US, is there serious debate about whether those games would attract more viewership than MLS games? And whether that would be "good for soccer"? I'm very happy to see Bomber/MC/Losira/MMA at US/EU tournaments.
Seeing Americans play is great, but it's about quality. If most of the American scene can't beat NEX's bench players, then I say keep the online qualifiers coming until the NA/EU scene can compete.
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Having the koreans compete is good anyway.
It will be a good source of builds and replays to steal (for us, mortals), and a good source of training for foreigners pros. At first they'll get roflstomped, then just stomped, then they'll just lose, then perhaps they'll win xD (or perhaps not). I mean, being able to play with korean is being able to play against a level of play that doesn't exist yet for foreigners progamers.
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I'm so relieved that the vast majority on TL is happy with seeing the best competition as opposed to protecting local players that are clearly not as good or motivated.
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Well theres always a good mix of Region-only competitions and Multi-region competitions.
You can't just linger around easy pickings to be good, you have to face the best. and if foreigners want to be the best, they have to fight it out with the koreans.
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On June 26 2011 16:36 sPaM916 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 16:12 Shiv. wrote:
Glad the poll turned out the way it did.
I don't know if that is common knowledge, but what I've been taught, not letting people participate in tournaments because of their origin is considered as racism.
And really: why would we as supposedly rational human beings deny the Koreans the chance to apply what they learned in endless hours of practice? I mean, it's not like they were good because it lies within their DNA (I suppose), but because they know how to make a business out of a game and how to practice to their limits. After all, they deserve to showcase that skill and earn the corresponding price money. how can one person be so ignorant. Its not a racial issue at all. I'm fine with seleCT participating in foreign tournaments and playing in LANs and everything. But the point is he is helping the foreign scene because he lives outside of Korea and harnesses support from foreign sponsors. Furthermore, he gathers attention from foreign fans and thus foreign corporations looking for a new outlet to advertise. If Koreans, as Catz said, choose to move outside of Korea then by all means let them participate let them flock to foreign events because they would gather foreigns fans. Its not a matter of racial barriers but of geographic economics. Korean players living korea will never have the same foreigner fan base and thus never harness suppourt for foreign esports. Also Koreans have small eyes and cannot there screen.
ban this racist please!
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At first I didn't care about Koreans participating in NA tournaments. Now I'm not quite sure. I have nothing against Koreans, but I'm enjoying the personalities of the foreigner scene quite a bit. While I'm fine with the way things are now, I don't want the foreigner scene to be stifled in the future. On the other hand, with more and more foreigner houses being developed, I think that foreign tournaments could serve as a proving ground for non-Koreans.
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If it would be the same for korean tournament..
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Anyone arguing economics as a reason for isolationism obviously doesn't know much about economics.
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Having more korean players in online foreign tournaments could also result in a higher skill level of the foreign scene as they are forced to compete with the koreans for money. This could result in the foreigners learning from the koreans and being forced to practice more to compete.
On the other hand it could make it more difficult for foreigners to win prize money and convince some of them to stop trying.
I think foreigners should see this as an opportunity to play and learn from the koreans and try to pull themselves up to their level.
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I know I am going against the majority here, but I think it would be good to limit the amount of koreans in foreign tournaments. Many people here state that they just want to watch the best. I am not so sure I agree with this. I personally want to watch matches between people I know and can relate to. I have been following the sc2 foreign scene since beta. I have watched so many of the foreigns grow and develop I want to support them and cheer for them. Last night while watching the tlo open, I did not even really want to watch the games. I love starcraft, but I also love the players and watching some players who I have never heard of who are really takes some of the thrill away from watching. I hope many of you don't take this the wrong way, but I am not to thrilled by the recent surge of entire tournaments being dominated by koreigns.
Also on a side note there is a completely seperate issue-labor laws. The koreans practice so many hours a day. I think we should make it mandatory that if korean teams wish to compete that they should treat their players better. It is unfair to expect foreigners to practice like 16 hours a day. It is unhealthy. I want to watch good games, but I would rather that those players not sacrifice every other facet of their lives to play. No other sport does this. Players are not allowed to have girl friends and other simple pleasures. They must continually play. Its like slavery I feel.
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I want foreigners and koreans to be on the same level. But all the koreans going to foreign tournaments will force the foreign players to step up their game, or they will rarely win as time goes on. I would love to see the foreign community step up their game!
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On June 26 2011 17:19 Clank wrote:
i don't get the people saying the foreigners will somehow just "get better" if the Koreans come in and dominate them. If every online tournament starts to be flooded with Koreans, it will only crush foreigners future chances, I think.
In baseball, players go through the minor leagues first before they get to play against the best players, because they need time to develop and grow as players. If you just threw them into the majors, most players wouldn't suddenly get better and compete, they would fail.
In the biggest online tournaments with the huge prize pools, I do think anyone should be able to compete because of the reason people have been saying, better games and better players winning. However, there needs to be some other, more prominent online tournaments just for NA players or EU players. Whether these are regional qualifiers for bigger tournaments or just stand alone tournaments, the up and coming foreigners need a platform to prove themselves in front of a bigger audience.
well huk essentially was a good player before he went to korea but nowhere near the beast he is right now.
Essentially, huk went to korea and exposed himself only to gsl (i.e to only koreans in tournaments and ladder), and because of this his level has increased so much. Huk is a beast now and it's because of constant exposure to playing many koreans.
In other words, what you said is nonsense because we already have an example of what would happen. Essentially the cream of the crop of na/eu players like huk, naniwa, dimaga, stephano, idra, jinro, tyler will all become stronger because of koreans.
that's a fact.
also sponsorship = viewer numbers and if 90% of people who voted watch then the sponsors will keep flooding in 
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On June 26 2011 23:52 gehgrfhgrh wrote:
The foreigners must learn it the hard way! If you're practicing not as much and not as efficient as the koreans, you shoudn't win anything!
one thing to remember though is the koreans have an entire pro scene set up for them. its socially acceptable to be a pro gamer far more than it is anywhere else in the world. Finally after so many years the rest of the world is catching up with progaming houses, big tournys ect.
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On June 27 2011 01:06 DyEnasTy wrote:
I want foreigners and koreans to be on the same level. But all the koreans going to foreign tournaments will force the foreign players to step up their game, or they will rarely win as time goes on. I would love to see the foreign community step up their game!
Yes this is ideally what should happen. The problem is that Korean teams already have the infrastructure and cultural backing that the foreigner scene so desperately needs. In order to establish this for ourselves, we need events where foreigners can do well to grow the fan base and attract sponsorship for foreign teams and players. Something the Korean teams already have.
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I prefer to have both kinds
- For qualifier of big tournaments, it should be open to all
- For smaller tournaments, it does make sense to have regional restriction
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You just can't practice like Koreans do in the West without being in the top 50 or so. Prior to that, commitments are going to stop you. University, a family, or so on. There just isn't the culture. As an example, chess prodigies are usually nurtured in school.
It is not the skill of players that needs to grow - we've watched Naniwa, Tarson and HuK take games (and series) off MC during the HSC. It is the support players get to engage in competitive Starcraft. Not just the top 50. If you are in medium to high Masters and Grand Masters and even particularly gifted lower league players that are just good at the game despite playing 3 games a week, you should be a prospect.
If anyone questions this, just look how many people churn through the footballing academies every year.
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On June 26 2011 19:51 AnalThermometer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 19:24 Mithriel wrote:
Its like Rolland Garros saying to Nadal he cant participate so Federer can win. Thats wrong, so is excluding koreans. I hope this just leads to western players to buckle up and practice. I'd say its a bit different from that. More similar to a country like India starting up tennis tournaments with generous money prizes which are supposed to go to local players to help their development, but having Federer / Nadal fly over there and destroy them every time and take the money. Most people are basically boiling the arguments down to "racist!" or "just practice more". Lol. Difficult for foreign pros to practice more when they might have to make a living doing eSports related work or just a plain old job, while many Koreans get a place to stay on the cheap or even free when they join a team. There's also economic differences, for example a player living in the USA may need a much higher living wage from a team than a promising player picked up from China who will play for 1/10th the cost. All these things and others mean Koreans will never be toppled from online tournaments if you nip the foreign scene in the bud. More difficult to give it patience and time to grow than give in to selfish fans saying "I want to see the best play and i want it now!!!". IMO.
A lot of ignorant americans assume korea is like china. Sorry but korean living standards are comparable to uk living standards which are much higher than american living standards. In america, you can buy a big house for cheap and buy food cheap. Even your petrol (oil) prices are low. In america, you can live fine on a low wage but in the uk you can't...that's why we have a plentiful benefits system.
Korea is so bloody expensive to live in
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EPT
