EPTCatz has an tit for tat take on things here, because "we" let Koreans come and play our tournaments freely, while "they" are placing a hurdle in front of us if we want to play in Korea. Bottomline, it is obvious that GSL is better run than any other tournament, the Korean all-pros-live-in-Seoul model is far better than the dispersed model in the international community, and the only thing that prevents a GSL from emerging in any other town in the world is the fact that Starcraft is in fact not that popular in any other country.
The Korean Online Invasion - what do you prefer? - Page 15
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50bani
Romania480 Posts
Catz has an tit for tat take on things here, because "we" let Koreans come and play our tournaments freely, while "they" are placing a hurdle in front of us if we want to play in Korea. Bottomline, it is obvious that GSL is better run than any other tournament, the Korean all-pros-live-in-Seoul model is far better than the dispersed model in the international community, and the only thing that prevents a GSL from emerging in any other town in the world is the fact that Starcraft is in fact not that popular in any other country. | ||
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Clank
United States548 Posts
In baseball, players go through the minor leagues first before they get to play against the best players, because they need time to develop and grow as players. If you just threw them into the majors, most players wouldn't suddenly get better and compete, they would fail. In the biggest online tournaments with the huge prize pools, I do think anyone should be able to compete because of the reason people have been saying, better games and better players winning. However, there needs to be some other, more prominent online tournaments just for NA players or EU players. Whether these are regional qualifiers for bigger tournaments or just stand alone tournaments, the up and coming foreigners need a platform to prove themselves in front of a bigger audience. | ||
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Nexic
United States729 Posts
On June 26 2011 17:19 Clank wrote: You're correct that foreigners won't suddenly get better just by competiting with koreans in tournaments, I don't think anyone is really arguing that. The more common hope seems to be that when Koreans swoop in and dominate, it'll motivate foreigners to take things more seriously in regards to their training. Seems like this is already starting to appear to some degree with FXO/EG/Reign etc with pro houses forming/going to korea.i don't get the people saying the foreigners will somehow just "get better" if the Koreans come in and dominate them. If every online tournament starts to be flooded with Koreans, it will only crush foreigners future chances, I think. In baseball, players go through the minor leagues first before they get to play against the best players, because they need time to develop and grow as players. If you just threw them into the majors, most players wouldn't suddenly get better and compete, they would fail. | ||
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NickelMail
128 Posts
Yes, we may get out butt whooped for a while, but that's all part of getting better. The more irritated we get that the Koreans are winning everything, the quicker we'll implement the strict training regimens and dedication the Koreans have now. If it gets to the point that we have NA and EU tournaments like NASL, and all the players are Korean, then adjustment will have to be made, we want to grow the Foreign scene, not kill it. But we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. | ||
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acker
United States2958 Posts
On June 26 2011 16:38 navara wrote: also that's absolutly not what i implied xD. but i knew someone would fall in there. if you want my own opinion, more korean better for me (cuz i'm mostly a spectator). but that's kinda hypocritical to me cuz i'll never be progamer... The alternative explanation, of course, is that you think Koreans are magically endowed with cash. But that's just silly. And you aren't a silly person  | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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whiteLotus
1833 Posts
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On June 26 2011 17:37 whiteLotus wrote: i think its bad tbh, whats the point of being progamer now realy? not only that all main tournaments are inviting koreans to their tournaments (mlg,dreamhack) so they completely own everyone(dont mention huk to me, he is in korea he is in different situation), now they are even playing in our weekly tourmanets? whats the point for teams to get players now and send them to tournaments when you know that top quality koreans will be invited and most likely will take top3, unless they eliminate each other? i realy dont like this Whats the point of doing anything if chances are that someone better can come? Sorry , I just don't get why this is bad, viewers get better games and if foreigners can't compete it is their own fault. Its not like Koreans have a genetic advantage they just work harder, hell Huk showed us that. And the time argument is a moot point nowadays because a lot of foreign Pros are now fulltime pro SC2 players. If they can't compete by then they should really see what they are lacking | ||
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Cubu
1171 Posts
On June 26 2011 17:33 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: i think their should be both: open tourneys and some regionally limited tourneys just like in normal sports. there is IPL for regional in NA, and EPS for germany. | ||
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iMonAhorsE
Germany275 Posts
There are great efforts to develop foreign esports, but koreans are just leading by a few years. There are a lot of foreigners who play fulltime, but practice on their own or online with some teammates or practice partners is just way less efficient than in a korean prohouse. So atm its a like professionals playing against amateurs imo.  And i personally love to see koreans play, but im not really interested in watching A and B class koreans owning up foreigners in foreign tournaments, because theyre not good enough to really succeed in GSL. | ||
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bubblegumbo
Taiwan1296 Posts
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Kira__
Sweden2672 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On June 26 2011 17:19 Clank wrote: i don't get the people saying the foreigners will somehow just "get better" if the Koreans come in and dominate them. If every online tournament starts to be flooded with Koreans, it will only crush foreigners future chances, I think. In baseball, players go through the minor leagues first before they get to play against the best players, because they need time to develop and grow as players. If you just threw them into the majors, most players wouldn't suddenly get better and compete, they would fail. In the biggest online tournaments with the huge prize pools, I do think anyone should be able to compete because of the reason people have been saying, better games and better players winning. However, there needs to be some other, more prominent online tournaments just for NA players or EU players. Whether these are regional qualifiers for bigger tournaments or just stand alone tournaments, the up and coming foreigners need a platform to prove themselves in front of a bigger audience. I will crush most foreigner's future chances. But some people will be able to stay afloat and they will be the basis of a competitive scene that can stand toe to toe with all in the world. | ||
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whiteLotus
1833 Posts
On June 26 2011 17:51 bubblegumbo wrote: What's the point?? The point is that this will force foreigners and their professional teams to start adapting by being more organized with gaming houses and better coaching, just like the Korean teams, then they'll start performing at their potential. Basically foreigner teams need to get better and be more organized and professional as well and start learning from how the professional sport industry are like. This isn't just about grinding ladder and finding practice partner online and just play without any sort of dedicated planning or training. This will also make esport more legitimate in terms of being a actual sustainable job in the long term. yeah right cuz foreigner teams are full of money and can just build gaming houses left and right? not going to happen. | ||
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Shiv.
3534 Posts
On June 26 2011 16:36 sPaM916 wrote: how can one person be so ignorant. Its not a racial issue at all. I'm fine with seleCT participating in foreign tournaments and playing in LANs and everything. But the point is he is helping the foreign scene because he lives outside of Korea and harnesses support from foreign sponsors. Furthermore, he gathers attention from foreign fans and thus foreign corporations looking for a new outlet to advertise. If Koreans, as Catz said, choose to move outside of Korea then by all means let them participate let them flock to foreign events because they would gather foreigns fans. Its not a matter of racial barriers but of geographic economics. Korean players living korea will never have the same foreigner fan base and thus never harness suppourt for foreign esports. Also Koreans have small eyes and cannot there screen. How would they not attract foreign fans living the way it is - living in Korea, participating in the NASL? Furthermore, I want to see eSports growing as much as you do - but at what costs? Not letting the arguably best nation of the game participate does not make much sense to me. A HUGE IMPORTANT SC II tournament without Koreans is just not legit in my opinion. That is because they bring the best competition to the table. I want to see the best of the best, and if foreigners are not able to catch up, why punish the ones working hard for their success? Is it my logic that is flawed or yours? I seriously do not see how restricting Korean slots helps eSports at all. | ||
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Casablancas
Denmark145 Posts
On June 26 2011 07:12 Wesso wrote: The only thing I'm afraid of is that foreigners will refuse to practice as much as the koreans (which IMO is totally understandable) so the SC2 scene will stop growing because nobody can beat the koreans. I don't mind them coming, but I hope the foreigners react to it by training harder. With that mind set they are never gonna catch up to the Koreans anyway. Hopefully they will react like Incontrol etc. and see it as a challenge and train harder. | ||
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Th1rdEye
United States1074 Posts
It's only going to get worse. StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2. Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2. I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them... So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends. 9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc) The solution needs to be a combination of both. Korea needs to open more leagues to support their own players so that the costs of coming overseas and leaving home is less appealing. In the meantime, we need some way for the foreigners to support themselves as well. What do you think is going to happen once all the Koreans are winning everything? Do you really think that the American and European sponsors are really going to keep shelling out money and sponsorships to their players once they realize that they aren't winning anything anyway? "Oh, uhh, I think we are aren't going to renew our contracts this year..." Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years... Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not. That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up. You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game. In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY. The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west. "Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people" Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way. Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS. Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ? If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place. If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft. Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer. The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft. If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick? I think I'd go with the latter. Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments? It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go. Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold. Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have? You all say you want to see "the best of the best".. do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank. It's just like the Olympics. Ever watch Cool Runnings? A Jamaican Bobsled team? Some countries aren't as good as others, but they still have room in their own country to practice and get better.. THEN prove themselves against the world in a big tournament.. The way it is now, EVERY tournament is flooded with Koreans... you guys do not seem to see where this is going.... it's Brood War 2 if we don't give ourselves room to make a living off of this. Once we all start realizing that we're losing money and time invested in the game because we're already exponentially behind the Koreans, we won't keep persisting. Esports will never succeed. | ||
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Musou
1375 Posts
On June 26 2011 18:13 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:+ Show Spoiler + To me, I think there should be segregation. You think the Koreans are afraid to come here and compete with us? No, they know it's a W.O. for the most part. Just look at the tournaments in the past month.... they're all dominated by Koreans. It's only going to get worse. StarCraft 2 ===> Brood War 2. Give us pro houses. Give us free food, free room and board... Give us the ability to NOT WORK, NOT PAY BILLS, and to AVOID REAL LIFE. All the Koreans are doing this. They wake up, and play SC2. They eat, then play SC2. Then they watch a movie and hang out with friends, then play SC2. I don't know what country you guys come but here in USA we have to work to survive. Slave to the money until we die. I don't give a shit if they practiced harder, or worked harder... there's no reason for them not to. We have to basically fit SC into our FREE TIME, which for some is VERY LITTLE. Their whole day is FREE TIME. Just living for free, eating for free, and avoiding real life should be a perk enough for them... So they get all the money. Meanwhile, Joe Shmoe gives up on StarCraft because of all the time he's tried to invest while working 40+ hours a week to get by will never catch up to 24/7 that the Koreans are allowed. Real life is hard to avoid, my friends. 9/10 players will just give up and not try as hard. Maybe 1/10 will truly try (example from Brood War---> Idra, Nony, Ret, etc) Saying that NOT having Koreans will make us lazy and not try as hard is silly. We still have to beat each other... it's not like without Koreans we WILL ALL WIN ALL THE TIME. There will STILL only be a Top 3 of a tournament that win money, but it will be against equal competition. There will always be FRESH players coming up and improving to the current pro's level so it's not like we will all get "easy money" as you say it is. There's still only a Top 3 at a tournament, even if it's only foreigners. Meanwhile, we can still have GSL, WCG, aka big tournaments that invite the whole globe. Just look at fucking Brood War.. How many foreigners even made a PENNY off of the game, let alone were allowed to sit in a pro house all day for months and years... Brood War proleague is still going on, but do you see any foreignors still trying to make it? I think not. That is just a metaphor for what StarCraft 2 will become once the Koreans go way past us in skill level. We won't be able to catch up, and we will give up. You say we won't give up? Like i said, do you see any foreignors still trying to go to Korea to compete in Brood War? No, they gave up and went to StarCraft 2.. Now it's the same damn thing in StarCraft 2 right when we thought we might have some options to make it as progamers after playing Brood War for 10 fucking years. But the truth is StarCraft 2, a VIDEO GAME, will never become an ESPORT until we ALL can make salaries and ALL live off the game. In MLB, NFL, etc., even if you are a 2nd string or 3rd string player, you STILL MAKE A SALARY. The truth is, I don't see SC2 being anything other than Brood War 2 if we don't let the game become an e-sport in the west. "Oh we'll all get lazy and play the same people" Havent you ever taken a look at the Korean Brood War scene? There's still new names rising and beating the old pros, and pros retiring.. It keeps recycling itself. One day iloveoov is owning everything up, the next it's Flash. They're playing THEMSELVES where the skill cap is a certain way. Do you not realize that most of the Korean scene is ONLY korean? Do you think they make any money off of us watching their Pro Leagues or off of Korean Advertisement that we do not even understand/can't read? Why is it that they can come to OUR LAND and win OUR TOURNAMENTS. Now imagine that in the West.. One day IdrA is winning, the next CatZ steps it up and he's all of a sudden the best Zerg. Then a month later, some new guy we haven't even heard of is the new best. The skill cap will never, ever, go backwards or get stale no matter who we are playing. For the longest time, we couldn't even play against the Korean players, and we still got better didn't we ? If you say you only want to see the "best of the best", then why is there a shit ton of pro baseball teams? Or a ton of NFL teams? Why would anyone ever want to watch anything other than the "best" team at the time? Or, why would anyone ever go to a Minor League Baseball game. If you say you're only going to watch the best, then you don't even like the game in the first place. If it's really for the love of the game, it wouldn't matter who you're watching. It's StarCraft. Do you only listen to one band or one artist at a time? No, you can respect all of them, no matter if some guy can play guitar way better than the other guy, or one guy is a better drummer. The only downfall I can see, like others have said, is less appeal for advertisements and viewers. But this is counter-intuitive my friends. An example is how Destiny can get more viewers on average than something like NASL... and he's not good. He's actually pretty terrible at this game, but people still watch him, because it's StarCraft. If you had the choice to watch NO starcraft or an all-foreigner tournament.. what would you pick? I think I'd go with the latter. Meanwhile, it's Korea's own fault for not expanding their own scene as well and letting all of their pros win tournament money. Why is there only GSL? Why do they not have multiple leagues set up or multiple tournaments? It just goes to show that SC2 is a lot smaller in the scheme of things than we really think it is, and I can definitely see it just being another Brood War if we do not do something about this from the get-go. Sure, foreigners take games off of Koreans... but in the end, they take the gold. Sure, maybe a foreigner only League wouldn't be as appealing as a Foreigner/Korean league, but you know what? Korea has their own exclusive leagues too.. why is it so wrong for us to want what they have? You all say you want to see "the best of the best".. do you think a 3rd string quarterback for the Pittsburgh Steelers gives a fuck if you only want to see the 1st string play? He still makes bank. I hope you realize that the foreign players on sponsored teams like FnaticMSI, EG, FXO, etc... actually do get a salary and are able to play SC2 all day. They don't have to deal with this "real life" and play SC2 in only their free time like you're saying. | ||
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Th1rdEye
United States1074 Posts
On June 26 2011 18:18 Musou wrote: I hope you realize that the foreign players on sponsored teams like FnaticMSI, EG, FXO, etc... actually do get a salary and are able to play SC2 all day. They don't have to deal with this "real life" and play SC2 in only their free time like you're saying. How long will the sponsors keep paying money if they arent winning anything? Already they're starting to sign the Korean players, and it won't be long before they ONLY sign Korean players... | ||
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whiteLotus
1833 Posts
On June 26 2011 18:26 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: How long will the sponsors keep paying money if they arent winning anything? Thats what i was talking about. Whats the point of keeping foreign players in your team if they cant wint anything, and just keep sending them to tournaments for nothing? Those teams can just get korean players, who will atleast have a chance, im sure koreans will happily join foreign team and travel arround the world to play in tournaments. | ||
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