|
KOREAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
Only nubzz decide not to go there to compete... FACT!!!
|
On May 22 2011 03:02 Timerly wrote:
..EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works)...
I believe a lot of the progamers who have tried playing both EU->NA and KR->NA disagree with that "nearly neutral ground" idea.
Not sure why it is turning into this argument anyway. I don't know why anyone would honestly believe there's no difference between the top 32 players at MLG and the Code S players.
|
On May 22 2011 03:09 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:06 L3gendary wrote:On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote:
I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S
IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea
Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist
Naniwa: ??? Where does he says that? Aren't they giving code S status to the winner of MLG after Columbus? He said GSL and MLG aren't on the same level, but that they give MLG winners a Code S seed anyway. Which is essentially him saying "we're being really nice to you even though you're worse than us".
In his interview he talks about giving foreigners Code S spots, so he may be talking about giving the spot to the best foreigner even if a korean does better, like they do for Code A.
Also, most people are comparing the best foreigners to the average or worse Code S players. It's a lot harder to say Naniwa is better tha MvP, Nestea or MC or that, like said a few posts above, the 32 top seeded MLG players are overall better than GSL.
|
On May 22 2011 03:09 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:06 L3gendary wrote:On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote:
I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S
IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea
Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist
Naniwa: ??? Where does he says that? Aren't they giving code S status to the winner of MLG after Columbus? He said GSL and MLG aren't on the same level, but that they give MLG winners a Code S seed anyway. Which is essentially him saying "we're being really nice to you even though you're worse than us".
i dont think its about the skill level they are talking about but rather the amount of effort to get to Code S you win a 3 day MLG and you get automatically code S when others have fight out over a months to get there
|
On May 22 2011 03:07 TicketoHELL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:02 Timerly wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote:
I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams.
MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again They don't have games scheduled at the MLG dates, that's about it, it's between two rounds of WC, you can't expect people to fly 12 hours, get 8-12 hour time difference and then play a tournament just to do the same thing again 3 days later. WC is really only one thing, a chance to earn fame. Too bad they would only invite players who are already well known anyways, in terms of money per time and effort the KR scence just doesn't cut it outside of Code S. Considering that half of Code S fights for survival after the first round it's understandable nobody wants to go there. Code A is crap, no other tourney in sight. gg. Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests. Considering that MC lost his TSL match on even grounds and all EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works) it's just not defendable to say KR > world. IEM was a bunch of matchup-wins (lol, remember the tie braker marathon?) on one side of the bracket, there's just no hard evidence for what he says. Then again, I doubt he follows the western scene and has any idea how good some of those guys are, that's just the korean way to look at Starcraft. A bit more diplomatical of an answer wouldn't have hurt the guy. I would even say he's right when he gives Code S a slight edge over MLG but it's just not what he does. I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Because they're televised and everybody watches, that's the main reason for meta-shifts...you can't shift the metagame with the magnitude of tournaments in the western scene because there's never an event everybody watches and never the possibility to prepare for a week for just one televised match. Look at Thorzain to see what happens when some of the westerners get to do this. Thor built anyone? Too bad it got nerfed instantly... My main point however is still: wtf were they thinking having an age long tournament like this without announcing it early enough? And then talking trash about the western scene? Gosh, the guy goes on my nerves. read the OP it clearly said that they sent the invitation for super tournament during the world championship it was announced early enough and he isnt talking trash about the western scene he just doesnt understand why the foreign players arent coming despite invitations even though they done so much for foreign in korea eg. gom house
no the OP doesnt "clearly" say anything, its a translation and things can be misinterpreted. There are 2 ways to translate that. It is either 1) your translation that they sent it out during the WC. or 2) (and this one seems to make the most sense due to how foriegn teams said there wasnt much time and i doubt they were lying) that they gave the same amount of warning time as they did with WC which was 2 weeks for a small tourney that wouldnt take long compared to 2 weeks for a super tourney that would last a month or more
Edit: and hey finally a post i agree with you about. GSL takes too much time to get to Code S compared to MLGs 3 day tourney which is why it isnt equal imo
|
On May 22 2011 03:09 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:06 L3gendary wrote:On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote:
I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S
IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea
Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist
Naniwa: ??? Where does he says that? Aren't they giving code S status to the winner of MLG after Columbus? He said GSL and MLG aren't on the same level, but that they give MLG winners a Code S seed anyway. Which is essentially him saying "we're being really nice to you even though you're worse than us".
That maybe your interpretation but I don't agree at all. He was only comparing the seeding. Basically saying that GSL players should get higher seeds in MLG than vice versa. Which I think is fair considering the level of competition in the open bracket at MLG vs code A koreans. Is there really a comparison?
|
You do realize that this is the worst possible senario for the SC2 scene, right? Once Korea starts dominating, and it will happen unless foreigners start compete in Korea where the level of competition is on another level, all the other major tourneys you mentioned will mostly likely be won by Koreans. How is this good for the nature of the SC2 e-sport?
I dunno ... I have to say that the Chinese have been impressing me a lot lately (esp. XiaOt). They completely wiped the floor with most of the Koreans in the StarsWar Killer 6 tournament.
|
"Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.'"
I seriously doubt that's what's scaring people
|
I'd think it would be ok to go to Korea as a team.. If you can participate in GSTL too.
Then you'd have GSL + GSTL and some Korean online tournaments.. But I don't really know.
Let's see how things go after MLG etc.
Would like to see some more foreigners tough :|
But seriously.. one month in Korea just for GSL is a bit too much :/
|
On May 22 2011 03:11 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:07 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:02 Timerly wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote:
I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams.
MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again They don't have games scheduled at the MLG dates, that's about it, it's between two rounds of WC, you can't expect people to fly 12 hours, get 8-12 hour time difference and then play a tournament just to do the same thing again 3 days later. WC is really only one thing, a chance to earn fame. Too bad they would only invite players who are already well known anyways, in terms of money per time and effort the KR scence just doesn't cut it outside of Code S. Considering that half of Code S fights for survival after the first round it's understandable nobody wants to go there. Code A is crap, no other tourney in sight. gg. Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests. Considering that MC lost his TSL match on even grounds and all EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works) it's just not defendable to say KR > world. IEM was a bunch of matchup-wins (lol, remember the tie braker marathon?) on one side of the bracket, there's just no hard evidence for what he says. Then again, I doubt he follows the western scene and has any idea how good some of those guys are, that's just the korean way to look at Starcraft. A bit more diplomatical of an answer wouldn't have hurt the guy. I would even say he's right when he gives Code S a slight edge over MLG but it's just not what he does. I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Because they're televised and everybody watches, that's the main reason for meta-shifts...you can't shift the metagame with the magnitude of tournaments in the western scene because there's never an event everybody watches and never the possibility to prepare for a week for just one televised match. Look at Thorzain to see what happens when some of the westerners get to do this. Thor built anyone? Too bad it got nerfed instantly... My main point however is still: wtf were they thinking having an age long tournament like this without announcing it early enough? And then talking trash about the western scene? Gosh, the guy goes on my nerves. read the OP it clearly said that they sent the invitation for super tournament during the world championship it was announced early enough and he isnt talking trash about the western scene he just doesnt understand why the foreign players arent coming despite invitations even though they done so much for foreign in korea eg. gom house no the OP doesnt "clearly" say anything, its a translation and things can be misinterpreted. There are 2 ways to translate that. It is either 1) your translation that they sent it out during the WC. or 2) (and this one seems to make the most sense due to how foriegn teams said there wasnt much time and i doubt they were lying) that they gave the same amount of warning time as they did with WC which was 2 weeks for a small tourney that wouldnt take long compared to 2 weeks for a super tourney that would last a month or more
ok im not basing my argument purely off the translation i can read korean so im basing off from the orginal document as well and in the original document it says that they sent out the invitation at the same time they sent out WC invitation but they participated in WC but not super tournament
|
On May 22 2011 03:09 TicketoHELL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:04 Subversion wrote:and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans. Did this piss anyone else off? Nobody said this at all, did they? How arrogant is that? What the fuck. ok you got this wrong read the paragraph again it says that foreign fans not the gom people
I always read that foreigners regarded Koreans has very strong and powerful, previously on a level of unbeatable(ness).
|
I think that while it's true that foreigners are not that far away from the good koreans, (while still being somewhat far from real top koreans), I think that is completely irrelevant. The thing is, foreigners are asking for WAY too much from GOM in this player exchange, they pretty much want 4 seeds into code S por top MLG players, this is absolutely crazy and unfair to code A players, particularly considering code A is probably tougher than all of MLG.
The problem is that the differences in the type of tournament make it impossible to make a "truly fair" exchange. GOM will not and should not change the tourney into a weekend-long tournament. Their tournament is a month-long season, which tries to emulate the BW system. If foreigners do not want to play because they believe the risk is too high, so be it, but they ARE offering a unique possibility, and it's theirs for the taking.
It's obviously understandable, people have lives in their homes, so they might not want to leave, however, asking for more from GOM is ridiculous. Maybe they should just make more world championships, that's a decent format for foreigners.
|
On May 22 2011 03:12 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:09 coddan wrote:On May 22 2011 03:06 L3gendary wrote:On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote:
I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S
IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea
Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist
Naniwa: ??? Where does he says that? Aren't they giving code S status to the winner of MLG after Columbus? He said GSL and MLG aren't on the same level, but that they give MLG winners a Code S seed anyway. Which is essentially him saying "we're being really nice to you even though you're worse than us". That maybe your interpretation but I don't agree at all. He was only comparing the seeding. Basically saying that GSL players should get higher seeds in MLG than vice versa. Which I think is fair considering the level of competition in the open bracket at MLG vs code A koreans. Is there really a comparison?
I don't understand what you mean. They were placed in the group stages, not the open bracket. How could they get a higher seed? It's exactly the same as foreigners being put in Code S instead of Code A (where the ones who dont finish first will be placed anyway)
|
|
|
On May 22 2011 03:13 Shalaiyn wrote:
"Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.'"
I seriously doubt that's what's scaring people
i think gom got that from reading off some posts from super tournament thread from TL
some random posters saying that statement here and there but thats minority
|
On May 22 2011 03:11 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:07 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:02 Timerly wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote:
I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams.
MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again They don't have games scheduled at the MLG dates, that's about it, it's between two rounds of WC, you can't expect people to fly 12 hours, get 8-12 hour time difference and then play a tournament just to do the same thing again 3 days later. WC is really only one thing, a chance to earn fame. Too bad they would only invite players who are already well known anyways, in terms of money per time and effort the KR scence just doesn't cut it outside of Code S. Considering that half of Code S fights for survival after the first round it's understandable nobody wants to go there. Code A is crap, no other tourney in sight. gg. Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests. Considering that MC lost his TSL match on even grounds and all EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works) it's just not defendable to say KR > world. IEM was a bunch of matchup-wins (lol, remember the tie braker marathon?) on one side of the bracket, there's just no hard evidence for what he says. Then again, I doubt he follows the western scene and has any idea how good some of those guys are, that's just the korean way to look at Starcraft. A bit more diplomatical of an answer wouldn't have hurt the guy. I would even say he's right when he gives Code S a slight edge over MLG but it's just not what he does. I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Because they're televised and everybody watches, that's the main reason for meta-shifts...you can't shift the metagame with the magnitude of tournaments in the western scene because there's never an event everybody watches and never the possibility to prepare for a week for just one televised match. Look at Thorzain to see what happens when some of the westerners get to do this. Thor built anyone? Too bad it got nerfed instantly... My main point however is still: wtf were they thinking having an age long tournament like this without announcing it early enough? And then talking trash about the western scene? Gosh, the guy goes on my nerves. read the OP it clearly said that they sent the invitation for super tournament during the world championship it was announced early enough and he isnt talking trash about the western scene he just doesnt understand why the foreign players arent coming despite invitations even though they done so much for foreign in korea eg. gom house no the OP doesnt "clearly" say anything, its a translation and things can be misinterpreted. There are 2 ways to translate that. It is either 1) your translation that they sent it out during the WC. or 2) (and this one seems to make the most sense due to how foriegn teams said there wasnt much time and i doubt they were lying) that they gave the same amount of warning time as they did with WC which was 2 weeks for a small tourney that wouldnt take long compared to 2 weeks for a super tourney that would last a month or more Edit: and hey finally a post i agree with you about. GSL takes too much time to get to Code S compared to MLGs 3 day tourney which is why it isnt equal imo
You are correct and i will change the op. Sorry for confusion.
|
He doesn't seem to understand the issues. I think every pro player would jump at the chance to compete in Korea at the highest level, but there's too much they have to sacrifice to compete in a month long tournament. Add in the logistical difficulties for the teams and it's not very easy to do.
I do have hope since Gom seems to be willing to adjust their schedules and their previous plans. They readjusted GSTL and they added top foreign tournaments to their schedule.
This kind of relationship between Korea and the foreign scene has never been done, so everyone is just testing the water. Hopefully Gom will continue to make adjustments to accommodate the needs of foreigners and their teams.
|
On May 22 2011 03:14 TicketoHELL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:11 Dawski wrote:On May 22 2011 03:07 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:02 Timerly wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote:
I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams.
MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again They don't have games scheduled at the MLG dates, that's about it, it's between two rounds of WC, you can't expect people to fly 12 hours, get 8-12 hour time difference and then play a tournament just to do the same thing again 3 days later. WC is really only one thing, a chance to earn fame. Too bad they would only invite players who are already well known anyways, in terms of money per time and effort the KR scence just doesn't cut it outside of Code S. Considering that half of Code S fights for survival after the first round it's understandable nobody wants to go there. Code A is crap, no other tourney in sight. gg. Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests. Considering that MC lost his TSL match on even grounds and all EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works) it's just not defendable to say KR > world. IEM was a bunch of matchup-wins (lol, remember the tie braker marathon?) on one side of the bracket, there's just no hard evidence for what he says. Then again, I doubt he follows the western scene and has any idea how good some of those guys are, that's just the korean way to look at Starcraft. A bit more diplomatical of an answer wouldn't have hurt the guy. I would even say he's right when he gives Code S a slight edge over MLG but it's just not what he does. I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Because they're televised and everybody watches, that's the main reason for meta-shifts...you can't shift the metagame with the magnitude of tournaments in the western scene because there's never an event everybody watches and never the possibility to prepare for a week for just one televised match. Look at Thorzain to see what happens when some of the westerners get to do this. Thor built anyone? Too bad it got nerfed instantly... My main point however is still: wtf were they thinking having an age long tournament like this without announcing it early enough? And then talking trash about the western scene? Gosh, the guy goes on my nerves. read the OP it clearly said that they sent the invitation for super tournament during the world championship it was announced early enough and he isnt talking trash about the western scene he just doesnt understand why the foreign players arent coming despite invitations even though they done so much for foreign in korea eg. gom house no the OP doesnt "clearly" say anything, its a translation and things can be misinterpreted. There are 2 ways to translate that. It is either 1) your translation that they sent it out during the WC. or 2) (and this one seems to make the most sense due to how foriegn teams said there wasnt much time and i doubt they were lying) that they gave the same amount of warning time as they did with WC which was 2 weeks for a small tourney that wouldnt take long compared to 2 weeks for a super tourney that would last a month or more ok im not basing my argument purely off the translation i can read korean so im basing off from the orginal document as well and in the original document it says that they sent out the invitation at the same time they sent out WC invitation but they participated in WC but not super tournament
Well then say you read it yourself in korean in your original points, my point stands that the OP doesnt clearly say anything because the OP IS a translation.
My guess then is the teams didnt want to attend both and decided just to choose either the WC or Super Tourney and its obvious which one they would choose for time/chance of success
|
this has already been discussed and stated ad nauseam, but it's just an issue of opportunity cost
go to Korea to participate in Super Tournament, commit a great deal of time for Super Tournament, go to Korea while not knowing who your practice partners will be, be very limited in participating in online tournaments outside Korea
the foreigner invites do not want to go to Korea and limit themselves to only being able to participate in the Super Tournament. they prefer choosing the risk/reward of being able to play comfortably in non-Korean online tournaments than the risk/reward of going to Korea and basically playing in only the Super Tournament.
the foreign SC2 e-sports scene is at such a point where it is sufficient enough to satiate the desires and goals of foreign SC2 progamers.
|
I think someone like thorzain in the GSL will have a verry good chance to win when he has a chance to sit down and plan a best of x series he looks verry good as shown in the TSL
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
