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On May 22 2011 03:19 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:14 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:11 Dawski wrote:On May 22 2011 03:07 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:02 Timerly wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote:
I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams.
MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again They don't have games scheduled at the MLG dates, that's about it, it's between two rounds of WC, you can't expect people to fly 12 hours, get 8-12 hour time difference and then play a tournament just to do the same thing again 3 days later. WC is really only one thing, a chance to earn fame. Too bad they would only invite players who are already well known anyways, in terms of money per time and effort the KR scence just doesn't cut it outside of Code S. Considering that half of Code S fights for survival after the first round it's understandable nobody wants to go there. Code A is crap, no other tourney in sight. gg. Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests. Considering that MC lost his TSL match on even grounds and all EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works) it's just not defendable to say KR > world. IEM was a bunch of matchup-wins (lol, remember the tie braker marathon?) on one side of the bracket, there's just no hard evidence for what he says. Then again, I doubt he follows the western scene and has any idea how good some of those guys are, that's just the korean way to look at Starcraft. A bit more diplomatical of an answer wouldn't have hurt the guy. I would even say he's right when he gives Code S a slight edge over MLG but it's just not what he does. I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Because they're televised and everybody watches, that's the main reason for meta-shifts...you can't shift the metagame with the magnitude of tournaments in the western scene because there's never an event everybody watches and never the possibility to prepare for a week for just one televised match. Look at Thorzain to see what happens when some of the westerners get to do this. Thor built anyone? Too bad it got nerfed instantly... My main point however is still: wtf were they thinking having an age long tournament like this without announcing it early enough? And then talking trash about the western scene? Gosh, the guy goes on my nerves. read the OP it clearly said that they sent the invitation for super tournament during the world championship it was announced early enough and he isnt talking trash about the western scene he just doesnt understand why the foreign players arent coming despite invitations even though they done so much for foreign in korea eg. gom house no the OP doesnt "clearly" say anything, its a translation and things can be misinterpreted. There are 2 ways to translate that. It is either 1) your translation that they sent it out during the WC. or 2) (and this one seems to make the most sense due to how foriegn teams said there wasnt much time and i doubt they were lying) that they gave the same amount of warning time as they did with WC which was 2 weeks for a small tourney that wouldnt take long compared to 2 weeks for a super tourney that would last a month or more ok im not basing my argument purely off the translation i can read korean so im basing off from the orginal document as well and in the original document it says that they sent out the invitation at the same time they sent out WC invitation but they participated in WC but not super tournament Well then say you read it yourself in korean in your original points, my point stands that the OP doesnt clearly say anything because the OP IS a translation. My guess then is the teams didnt want to attend both and decided just to choose either the WC or Super Tourney and its obvious which one they would choose for time/chance of success
yeah i should have said that my mistake
also on your point WC gives out 10 times more prizepool than super tournament if you just attend
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On May 22 2011 03:11 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:07 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:02 Timerly wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote:
I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams.
MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again They don't have games scheduled at the MLG dates, that's about it, it's between two rounds of WC, you can't expect people to fly 12 hours, get 8-12 hour time difference and then play a tournament just to do the same thing again 3 days later. WC is really only one thing, a chance to earn fame. Too bad they would only invite players who are already well known anyways, in terms of money per time and effort the KR scence just doesn't cut it outside of Code S. Considering that half of Code S fights for survival after the first round it's understandable nobody wants to go there. Code A is crap, no other tourney in sight. gg. Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests. Considering that MC lost his TSL match on even grounds and all EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works) it's just not defendable to say KR > world. IEM was a bunch of matchup-wins (lol, remember the tie braker marathon?) on one side of the bracket, there's just no hard evidence for what he says. Then again, I doubt he follows the western scene and has any idea how good some of those guys are, that's just the korean way to look at Starcraft. A bit more diplomatical of an answer wouldn't have hurt the guy. I would even say he's right when he gives Code S a slight edge over MLG but it's just not what he does. I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Because they're televised and everybody watches, that's the main reason for meta-shifts...you can't shift the metagame with the magnitude of tournaments in the western scene because there's never an event everybody watches and never the possibility to prepare for a week for just one televised match. Look at Thorzain to see what happens when some of the westerners get to do this. Thor built anyone? Too bad it got nerfed instantly... My main point however is still: wtf were they thinking having an age long tournament like this without announcing it early enough? And then talking trash about the western scene? Gosh, the guy goes on my nerves. read the OP it clearly said that they sent the invitation for super tournament during the world championship it was announced early enough and he isnt talking trash about the western scene he just doesnt understand why the foreign players arent coming despite invitations even though they done so much for foreign in korea eg. gom house no the OP doesnt "clearly" say anything, its a translation and things can be misinterpreted. There are 2 ways to translate that. It is either 1) your translation that they sent it out during the WC. or 2) (and this one seems to make the most sense due to how foriegn teams said there wasnt much time and i doubt they were lying) that they gave the same amount of warning time as they did with WC which was 2 weeks for a small tourney that wouldnt take long compared to 2 weeks for a super tourney that would last a month or more Edit: and hey finally a post i agree with you about. GSL takes too much time to get to Code S compared to MLGs 3 day tourney which is why it isnt equal imo
The translation is somewhat vague, but I can tell you that he's implying that the invitation was sent out with the same amount of advanced warning as the WC - that's why he says he doesn't understand why foreigners accepted one, but not the other when both events allowed the same amount of time to prep.
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It's impossible to combine the Korean and western scene due to geographical issues alone. I don't think they should even try.
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It's a matter of dedication. As DIMAGA said, he can't commit to korean super tournament because of his family and girlfriend. This case seems to be similar to a lot of other foreigners'. Not saying that having a life is bad, but it definitely impedes progaming career.
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I believe one major advantage the Koreans have over the foreigners is a very well established team that live together, along with a team manager and a coach. In tournaments that really matters (ie: GSL) you have an entire team to support you by helping you research on your opponent's playstyle, and help you develop as well as practice for the counterbuild.
Leaving home is a big decision to make. Xeris made a good post about the troubles of going to Korea: adjusting to the culture, needing to find new practice partners, etc etc. I wonder how many Korean players are willing to leave their home for a few weeks to play in a foreign tournament (of which they are not guaranteed to qualify in?
Foreign tournaments for the most part have a "world wide" perspective in mind - they understand players come from all over the world. To play in the IEM/MLG all you have to do is fly over for a few days and you will be done - something easily accomplished.
I bet if GOM starts a GSOL (online league) a lot of foreigners will start to dominate through sheer skill, talent, and innovative play style.
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On May 22 2011 02:58 Tanatos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:53 PraetorianX wrote:On May 22 2011 02:39 AndreiDaGiant wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 Shifft wrote:
If he seriously can't fathom why people wouldn't want to book plane tickets and a stay in Korea for a month on a few weeks' notice, giving up their chances to participate in the multitude of EU/NA events....I don't know just seems pretty dense.
GSL players may or may not be better than foreigners in terms of skill, we haven't really seen enough games to say for sure, but the financial and publicity benefits of going over to GSL are CERTAINLY not as good as the benefits of staying here. i agree this response seems really defensive and makes them look bad IMO... no reason to put down mlg and all other foreigners because they dont want to play in their tournament Yeah, and it seems like they are saying GSL is so far above MLG skill-wise that seeding foreigners in Code S is very different from seeding Koreans in MLG. Well, if that is the case, why didn't the Koreans win MLG? I think this is the first time that Koreans are attending MLG.
Select is korean, get own 
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On May 22 2011 02:18 Lms0 wrote:Well, I think it's mainly the fact that you have to stay there for 1 month that is the problem for foreigner's 
Maybe a sign that some of them should get jobs for a few months?
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The problem is Blizzard's really.
There is no justification for cutting off entire segments and sections of the world, when the medium we play the game through can do so much better.
Imagine a world where a player could live in Korea for the prestigous live events, travel to the weekend events like MLG + ESL, and while training still play in the NASL, IPL, Go4SC2 monthly final, Eg masters cup and various clanwars and showmatches.
However, due to the awful connection between KR and RoW you must chose GSL OR any other big events + online cups - and the money is all in the second of those options.
And yet this should not be a choice players have to make.
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I think the people at Gom need to take a survey of foreign players and get an idea of just how much income some of these regular tournaments, weekend live events, showmatches, and leagues generate for them. What happens if they get a tough draw, and get knocked out first round? That's a lot of money spent for nothing gained.
I'd love to hear some of the reactions of korean players to this news, to get their perspective on all of this.
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On May 22 2011 03:24 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:18 Lms0 wrote:Well, I think it's mainly the fact that you have to stay there for 1 month that is the problem for foreigner's Maybe a sign that some of them should get jobs for a few months?
That's a pretty dumb thing to say. They have jobs. Professional gaming, maybe you've heard of it.
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On May 22 2011 03:24 Hikari wrote:
I believe one major advantage the Koreans have over the foreigners is a very well established team that live together, along with a team manager and a coach. In tournaments that really matters (ie: GSL) you have an entire team to support you by helping you research on your opponent's playstyle, and help you develop as well as practice for the counterbuild.
Leaving home is a big decision to make. Xeris made a good post about the troubles of going to Korea: adjusting to the culture, needing to find new practice partners, etc etc. I wonder how many Korean players are willing to leave their home for a few weeks to play in a foreign tournament (of which they are not guaranteed to qualify in?
Foreign tournaments for the most part have a "world wide" perspective in mind - they understand players come from all over the world. To play in the IEM/MLG all you have to do is fly over for a few days and you will be done - something easily accomplished.
I bet if GOM starts a GSOL (online league) a lot of foreigners will start to dominate through sheer skill, talent, and innovative play style.
If this GSOL is played on KR server, I very much doubt foreigners will dominate, lol. They already said that KR ladder is harder than all other ladders.
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On May 22 2011 03:25 Haydin wrote:
I think the people at Gom need to take a survey of foreign players and get an idea of just how much income some of these regular tournaments, weekend live events, showmatches, and leagues generate for them. What happens if they get a tough draw, and get knocked out first round? That's a lot of money spent for nothing gained.
I'd love to hear some of the reactions of korean players to this news, to get their perspective on all of this.
No, you're getting it wrong. Main income should not come from prize money, it should come from a salary paid by the team. BW progamers don't rely on prize money to make a living.
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"You mean I have to live in one of the greatest cities on the planet for a month, one which thousands of SC fans wish they could visit, in order to compete for an incredible experience and prize pool?
ABSURD! I can maybe win a few 50$ weekly European cups, who wants to go to Korea!"
Since when have foreigners EVER played for money?
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On May 22 2011 03:25 resilve wrote:
There is no justification for cutting off entire segments and sections of the world, when the medium we play the game through can do so much better.
If they aren't lying, there is actually. From what we've been told, it isn't feasible for Blizzard to setup the servers so that everyone can play together.
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Man, I wish they had invited me... I would've accepted it in a heartbeat. I don't know what you kids are talking about with how you wouldn't do it.
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On May 22 2011 03:16 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:12 L3gendary wrote:On May 22 2011 03:09 coddan wrote:On May 22 2011 03:06 L3gendary wrote:On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote:
I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S
IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea
Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist
Naniwa: ??? Where does he says that? Aren't they giving code S status to the winner of MLG after Columbus? He said GSL and MLG aren't on the same level, but that they give MLG winners a Code S seed anyway. Which is essentially him saying "we're being really nice to you even though you're worse than us". That maybe your interpretation but I don't agree at all. He was only comparing the seeding. Basically saying that GSL players should get higher seeds in MLG than vice versa. Which I think is fair considering the level of competition in the open bracket at MLG vs code A koreans. Is there really a comparison? I don't understand what you mean. They were placed in the group stages, not the open bracket. How could they get a higher seed? It's exactly the same as foreigners being put in Code S instead of Code A (where the ones who dont finish first will be placed anyway)
No I'm comparing the level of competition between the open pool and Code A which justifies the reason why 4 (mostly code A) koreans get seeded directly into the championship pool compared with the 1 foreigner getting into code S.
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the WC was like a 2 week stay, so it was like a mini-vacation. With the super tournament being a month, it kind of cuts into your life/comfort and it becomes less of a vacation and more of a bother.
So it boils down to a choice between comfort and competitive drive. Not that foreigners are lacking in the motivation department... I mean an unparalleled desire to be the best and train with the best so great that you are willing to sacrifice many things.
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On May 22 2011 03:25 resilve wrote:
The problem is Blizzard's really.
There is no justification for cutting off entire segments and sections of the world, when the medium we play the game through can do so much better.
Imagine a world where a player could live in Korea for the prestigous live events, travel to the weekend events like MLG + ESL, and while training still play in the NASL, IPL, Go4SC2 monthly final, Eg masters cup and various clanwars and showmatches.
However, due to the awful connection between KR and RoW you must chose GSL OR any other big events + online cups - and the money is all in the second of those options.
And yet this should not be a choice players have to make.
Yeah I forgot Blizzard owns the internets
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On May 22 2011 03:28 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:25 Haydin wrote:
I think the people at Gom need to take a survey of foreign players and get an idea of just how much income some of these regular tournaments, weekend live events, showmatches, and leagues generate for them. What happens if they get a tough draw, and get knocked out first round? That's a lot of money spent for nothing gained.
I'd love to hear some of the reactions of korean players to this news, to get their perspective on all of this. No, you're getting it wrong. Main income should not come from prize money, it should come from a salary paid by the team. BW progamers don't rely on prize money to make a living.
SC2 isn't big enough to give everyone salaries. some foreigner teams do provide salaries. no idea how much, but some players do receive a salary.
BW isn't even big enough to give all their B teamers a real salary.
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Fact: Very, very few people want to live in Korea for a month. The language barrier just by itself would suck, but when you add in the cost of making the trip, then Korea pretty much loses all its shine.
Hell, even if I had family in Korea, I wouldn't want to stay there for a month.
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EPT
