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![[image loading]](http://pocket.playxp.com/thumbs/400x/1233838?3caf4e844b213ff2)
Chae Jung Won, the head of GomTV manage team "Can't understand foreigner's rejection"
GSL Super Tournament begins in coming May 23rd with top 64 GSL point rankers. Super tournament has made issues by making competition of both code A and code S players, but unfortunately many foreigners, except Chris 'Huk' Loranger and Jonathan 'Jinro' Walsh, has rejected invitations.
Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.' Also the manager of team Fnatic complained that "the invitaion of Super Tournament from GomTV came out in rush."
PlayXP was able to hear opinion of Chae Jung Won, the head of Manage team in GomTV (also main caster of GSL), during presentation of new format change of GSL in May 19th. Mr. Chae said, "We gave the same amount of warning time as we did with World Championship. I do not understand the reason of rejection since they were able to participate in World Championship."
The prize of participating World Championship was about 3,000,000 Won. (about 2700 USD) But in Super Tournament, if you qualify RO32 you will be guaranteed to have 1,000,000 Won. (about 900 USD) Of course you can't be sure until you hear from players, the prize pool , the chance of winning the tournament, and the travel cost are the most probable reason to reject invitation.
In fact, Dmytro 'Dimaga' Filipchuk spoke during the interview after World Championship that "It is very difficult to stay in Korea for long term since I have a girl friend and family. There are many online tournaments in Europe. That is why playing in Europe is much better choice for me."
Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S."
About question of making barrier for players in code A to promote in code S through Up and Down match, he said "The ability of player is what they can make win in Up and Down match. If you lose your Up and Down match, then you can't advance to code S. But we made change so winner of code A can advance without Up and Down match."
Written by: Lee Si Woo (siwoo@playxp.com)
(C) PlayXP
This is personal statement of Caster Chae Jung Won, not the official statement of GomTV, of answering suggestion of giving code S seed directly to foriegners from foriegn community. (I think it was refering to http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224111)
Link http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=2837932
Response on the playxp thread by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
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Well, I think it's mainly the fact that you have to stay there for 1 month that is the problem for foreigner's
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well i still think that the biggest problem is that gom always anounce things to shortly
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On May 22 2011 02:18 Lms0 wrote:Well, I think it's mainly the fact that you have to stay there for 1 month that is the problem for foreigner's 
Yup and the time difference + lag stops them playing in other tourneys that they might already have agreed to, such as clan wars or ESL Pro series etc. If the lag issues could be solved, it might lead to more foreigners deciding they can be in korea and still earn money outside of the GSL
Could you imagine if Jinro and HuK could play in online tourneys from korea without lag.... that would encourage others to try it out
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On May 22 2011 02:18 CoR wrote: well i still think that the biggest problem is that gom always anounce things to shortly
You read just one guy say things and u all swallowed it.
KOREA FTW.
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United States4796 Posts
There is a notable difference between seeds for MLG and a seed for GSL?
Explain, please.
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On May 22 2011 02:18 Lms0 wrote:Well, I think it's mainly the fact that you have to stay there for 1 month that is the problem for foreigner's 
Actually with new change of format, a single season lasts for 6 weeks now.
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On May 22 2011 02:18 CoR wrote: well i still think that the biggest problem is that gom always anounce things to shortly
You obviously didnt read the OP, considering they sent out invitations during world championship.
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On May 22 2011 02:21 DivinO wrote: There is a notable difference between seeds for MLG and a seed for GSL?
Explain, please.
I think he's saying that code S players are superior?
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It's really quite simple, why would anyone want to give up their current life for a few months just so they can play in a month long qualifier, that they might not even end up doing well in, when there's plenty of tournaments for them to compete in in NA/EU
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On May 22 2011 02:21 DivinO wrote: There is a notable difference between seeds for MLG and a seed for GSL?
Explain, please.
Well, that was direct translation so you have to hear my opinion on that quote.
"GSL > MLG so seed to GSL code S should have higher value and seed to MLG"
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On May 22 2011 02:18 Lms0 wrote:Well, I think it's mainly the fact that you have to stay there for 1 month that is the problem for foreigner's  yeah I´m a bit confused why this isn´t even mentioned. it´s the main reason why foreigners won´t go to korea I think. (plus code A not being worth it)
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On May 22 2011 02:22 Denizen[9] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:18 CoR wrote: well i still think that the biggest problem is that gom always anounce things to shortly You obviously didnt read the OP, considering they sent out invitations during world championship.
No, it means GomTV give same time period to foreign players.
For example, if WC invi was sent 1 month before tourney, than ST invi was sent 1 month before tourney.
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It won't be a problem for those foreigners that will almost certainly be able to reach Code S. Korea is just hard, it's not worth it if you're not absolutely awesome like the top Koreans. Players like MVP, MC or NesTea, or even MKP, which are just noticeably better than most and thus are able to stay in Code S. I would certainly advice against anyone who's not as good as them to travel to Korea as it would be indeed a very risky move.
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We all know that this guy is saying the truth. Its really true that the korean guys are pulling ahead in terms of skill. Soon enough foreigners might not be able to take games from koreans.
There is some degree of discrepancy from CODE S and gosu foreigners in term of skill, not that much though.
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Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S
Are we really saying that Inca is more skillful than say naniwa?
Code S is being VERY disappointing for Mr. GOMTV to make such a statement.
Also considering that koreans dropped like flies in the Chinese Gigabyte tournament, their bragging rights is down the drain.
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On May 22 2011 02:22 Denizen[9] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:18 CoR wrote: well i still think that the biggest problem is that gom always anounce things to shortly You obviously didnt read the OP, considering they sent out invitations during world championship.
I'm not sure due to the translation, but I think what he meant was not that they sent out invitations during the World Championship, but instead that they sent out invitations equally far in advance (eg, players heard about World Championship two weeks in advance, and then they heard about this two weeks in advance). I could see where getting to/staying in Korea for something as relatively short as the World Championship could be easier to arrange on short notice than something as long as the Super Tournament.
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I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams. MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf.
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On May 22 2011 02:29 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S Are we really saying that Inca is more skillful than say naniwa? Code S is being VERY disappointing for Mr. GOMTV to make such a statement. Also considering that koreans dropped like flies in the Chinese Gigabyte tournament, their bragging rights is down the drain.
Obviously there may be a certain few players that don't fit stereotype, but i think we can all agree that Code S is the highest level of SC2 that a viewer can watch right now.
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Let's extend Mr. Chae an invitation to cast the NASL for a month. See if he can accept going to the US for a month. Maybe he'll understand a bit better after that.
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If he seriously can't fathom why people wouldn't want to book plane tickets and a stay in Korea for a month on a few weeks' notice, giving up their chances to participate in the multitude of EU/NA events....I don't know just seems pretty dense.
GSL players may or may not be better than foreigners in terms of skill, we haven't really seen enough games to say for sure, but the financial and publicity benefits of going over to GSL are CERTAINLY not as good as the benefits of staying here.
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On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams. MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf.
Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG.
I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them.
If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again
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it's money dude, all about money, these koreans don't seem to grasp the western socio-cultural take on participating in the GSL even if seeded.
time invested per potential earnings in korea doesn't cut it, since in the west you're guaranteed to make at least some sort of living off gaming even as a second tier pro even without sponsorship, and you got backup plans of alternate jobs in your home area readily available. none but the most dedicated and most endorsed will go to korea and try out until there's (a lot) more stuff you can participate in outside the GSL (possibly years), or the ms between regions magically gets better (years), or they increase the prize pool for every stage of the competition significantly (doesn't make sense).
because let's be serious here, other considerations are secondary, you can afford to spend 2 months away from mommy and friends trying to prove yourself in the most competitive environment for your chosen profession.
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On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams. MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf.
I think also with the addition of the NASL, IPL and MLG prize pools there isn't much reason for them to travel to korea. In BW, if you wanted to make money you kinda had to go to korea, thats not the case now, Koreans are playing in foreigner tourneys more and more because there is alot of money to be won........ why go to korea to play for a month and make $1500 when you could stay at home, play from your room and win big money in NASL et al.
Korea isn't the mecca of SC2, its just not, and if the foreigner scene keeps growing like it as atm, it won't ever be. Even if the Koreans eventually become unbeatable, the rest of the world has a large enough scene with enough money behind it that there won't be the motivation to move to korea.
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@Timerly : Even though foreigners don't do too bad against koreans, I honestly still think koreans have the edge. And that little edge is what makes all the difference in tournaments like Code S.
There are a few foreign players who definitely COULD be GSL champions if they had the opportunity and will to get into it full time but it's just not the case at the moment.
It's normal that people would reject that opportunity, because going to Korea to play sc2 really isnt worth it unless you know for sure you have a shot at the top. Which no one can be sure of yet I'd say, the game is still quite young and changing a lot.
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On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds. Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests.
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On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams. MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again
and have major jetlag and then do less than expecting in both tournaments?
there is more money/chance of success to just stay where they are and play in NA/EU lans and online tourneys
So besides the fact that many players who have never been to korea and grew up in the NA/EU scenes went there and did remarkably well in the world championships? Foreigners can have their own sc2 scene
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On May 22 2011 02:35 Shifft wrote: If he seriously can't fathom why people wouldn't want to book plane tickets and a stay in Korea for a month on a few weeks' notice, giving up their chances to participate in the multitude of EU/NA events....I don't know just seems pretty dense.
GSL players may or may not be better than foreigners in terms of skill, we haven't really seen enough games to say for sure, but the financial and publicity benefits of going over to GSL are CERTAINLY not as good as the benefits of staying here.
i agree this response seems really defensive and makes them look bad IMO... no reason to put down mlg and all other foreigners because they dont want to play in their tournament
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I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc)
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Xeris explained it pretty well. His lack of understanding as to why is exactly why foreigners will continue to reject invitations. If he is surprised by this, imagine how surprised he will be when the top 3 of MLG likely refuse their spots in the GSL because of the lopsided benefits.
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Going to korea for a month to play in 1 tournament doesn't really sound too tempting. I don't know how's the format in the super tournament but if your tournament life is decided by 1 bo3 its a joke really.
Language barrier and no other foreigners in korea to practice with (well HuK and Jinro if they're willing). Grinding the ladder 12 a day won't win you the tournament i think
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On May 22 2011 02:40 ktgster wrote: I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc)
Sorry but that is just complete bullshit. It was definitely true in BW, but in SC2 ALOT of Koreans have actually been quoted as saying they look to foreigners for inspiration for strategies. The most recent one was probably Nada talking about Thorzain (I think?).
Traditionally Foreigners have been more creative and Koreans better at mechanics once the builds are there to practice for hours.
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Props to Huk and Jinro who are staying in Korea just to compete with the best in the world even if the competition is stack as hell.I think they are huge ballers for doing that but i don't think there are many players who are going to make the move. You have to do it just for the prestige and not for the money, if you want to compete with the best you know where they are, but if you follow just the money then stay at home...
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On May 22 2011 02:40 ktgster wrote: I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc)
I don't agree that Korea controls the meta game. And I also don't agree that only a few foreigners can compete in Code S. There's probably at least 10 or 15 foreigners that would easily belong, which is almost half of code S.
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GSL's system ask alot of any foreigner who doesn't want to stay in Korea permanently. If GOM wants to have hugely successful global events forever, they need to cater to foreign players like we do for Koreans regardless of where they see themselves compared to foreign tournaments. Dreamhack Summer looks alot more "global" then GSL right now and MLG too and they'll stay that way until a KeSPA-like organization steps in and says they can't or GOM starts making huge concessions for foreigners.
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On May 22 2011 02:38 godemperor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds. Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests.
He never says how big the gap is. He simply states that he doesn't think giving a Code S spot for the best foreigner in MLG, instead of the best player, would be unfair, because a Code S spot is worth a lot more than a MLG seed, and yes, that's true.
I find it very hard to believe someone that would say that a seed in MLG is better than getting straight in Code S, both because of the dificulty in it, and the fact that unlike GSL, you can participate in the main tournament even if you have no seed. And it's also hard to say the overall level of the GSL is not better than of MLG.
Also, people are jumping to a lot of conclusions based on an unoficial statement that has been translated, which not uncommonly makes some things sounds diferent than what was intended.
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I would say inca is atleast on par if not better in some aspects (PvP) as Naniwa. Inca lost to the top zerg in the world (or one of) in the finals having one bad match doesn't make you bad. IMO Nestea would wipe the floor naniwa in a LAN setting. I guess will have to see Naniwa has a good chance of taking MLG Columbus and I believe I read or heard some where that Naniwa would take a GSL spot if the opportunity arose.
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Canada13389 Posts
On May 22 2011 02:33 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:29 Jombozeus wrote:Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S Are we really saying that Inca is more skillful than say naniwa? Code S is being VERY disappointing for Mr. GOMTV to make such a statement. Also considering that koreans dropped like flies in the Chinese Gigabyte tournament, their bragging rights is down the drain. Obviously there may be a certain few players that don't fit stereotype, but i think we can all agree that Code S is the highest level of SC2 that a viewer can watch right now.
No we cannot all agree. I prefer the GSTL and some of the best players havent made it into code A. This isnt to say code A is better than those code B players but that the system is ridiculous and many players dont get to play and instead we are stuck with worse players coasting by on the relative difficulty in dropping out of GSL when compared to the difficulty of getting into the GSL, To drop out you basically need to be picked in the up and downs by a team mates (re: what happened to LeenockfOu) and then get cheesed in the early rounds or face someone like MVP in code A.
This being said I know that GSL offered invites but to enter into the tournament people need to live for a month in Korea. Its not the fact koreans are better its the time invested and costs which short of winning the whole tournament cannot be recovered.
With MLG one weekend costs a plane ticket and 2 nights stay at a hotel (at minimum) but that can be paid for much more easily than can one months rent and food and ticket alongside the lost opportunity cost of foreign tournaments is problematic.
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To put it simply, battle net 2.0 sucks.
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On May 22 2011 02:29 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S Are we really saying that Inca is more skillful than say naniwa? Code S is being VERY disappointing for Mr. GOMTV to make such a statement. Also considering that koreans dropped like flies in the Chinese Gigabyte tournament, their bragging rights is down the drain. inca have horrible pvz and it was against nestea i dont think naniwa can beat inca in pvp and they have similar level of pvt and mostly inca got lucky in the bracket comparing the best foreign protoss to a mediocre protoss in korea is really not fair comparison is it?
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Someone should link/translate him the article that Xeris recently wrote.
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On May 22 2011 02:40 ktgster wrote: I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Yeah, Koreans like spanishiwa are just so far ahead of the metagame when it comes to innovating new styles and builds.
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On May 22 2011 02:27 fer wrote: It won't be a problem for those foreigners that will almost certainly be able to reach Code S. Korea is just hard, it's not worth it if you're not absolutely awesome like the top Koreans. Players like MVP, MC or NesTea, or even MKP, which are just noticeably better than most and thus are able to stay in Code S. I would certainly advice against anyone who's not as good as them to travel to Korea as it would be indeed a very risky move.
You do realize all 4 of them fell to Up/Down matches as some point (some more than once) and MVP fell to code A right? Just wondering how much you thought about what you said.
On May 22 2011 02:38 godemperor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds. Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests.
Thorzain vs MC were played in Europe so don't discount that game to lag.
On May 22 2011 02:40 ktgster wrote: I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc)
Except when they steal builds from NA, like Nada using Strelok's build in Nasl, the zerg no gas builds that are being popular now in GSL, the TvT build with blue flames and banshees. Cmon...
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On May 22 2011 02:14 Tanatos wrote:
Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.' Also the manager of team Fnatic complained that "the invitaion of Super Tournament from GomTV came out in rush."
PlayXP was able to hear opinion of Chae Jung Won, the head of Manage team in GomTV (also main caster of GSL), during presentation of new format change of GSL in May 19th. Mr. Chae said, "the invitation was sent out as same time period as World Championship. I do not understand the reason of rejection since they were able to participate in World Championship."
What a load of bullshit. Dreamhack will comming up soon and im sure you will see the best foreign willl be able to beat the best of korean.
The problem with GSL its to long. Like Dimaga wrote he got famelie and girlfirend. A life he cant just tell his love ones that he had to go to Korea again for another month todo his job when he can do it in Europe also and still provide a good living for himself.
Same with White-ra he got a job and wife beside being a pro sc2 player. There is to much commitment and I cant toally understand why it isnt fair for there loveones to be gone for several months a year.
GSL need to realise that the format simply dont suit the foreign scene. Lets reverse the situation if GSL was in europe im sure it would be as hard at it is now to get Korean players to stay for months in a foreign country.
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On May 22 2011 02:49 yarkO wrote: Someone should link/translate him the article that Xeris recently wrote.
hes seen it...he brought it up in this message about how Fnatic responded with how there wasnt enough time to prepare and costs.
(Xeris is a manager of FnaticMSI right?)
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On May 22 2011 02:50 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:40 ktgster wrote: I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Yeah, Koreans like spanishiwa are just so far ahead of the metagame when it comes to innovating new styles and builds.
They got to be careful though. The metagame is fast and it might over take them.
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lets just face it foreigners dont think they can win GSL ever if they thought they could win it i dont see why they arent coming to korea GSL has the highest prizepool
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On May 22 2011 02:44 Samhax wrote: Props to Huk and Jinro who are staying in Korea just to compete with the best in the world even if the competition is stack as hell.I think they are huge ballers for doing that but i don't think there are many players who are going to make the move. You have to do it just for the prestige and not for the money, if you want to compete with the best you know where they are, but if you follow just the money then stay at home...
Simple fact is as a professional at anything, you have to make a financial decision most of the time. Look at Football in the UK, there are many players who have moved from a team like Barca to a mid range English team just because they get offered a better salary and better bonus packages. They might not stay with that team for 5-6 years but instead use it as a stepping stone in to one of the bigger clubs and even more money.
I am a musician, if i get offered £250 to play a gig at a pub in my home town and get offered a gig in Scotland for £300 on the same date, which do i take? The one at home, because once I spend money getting to Scotland and finding a hotel i'm actually making less money. I do have to make those choices at times and I will nearly always go for the one that makes more financial sense, if the gig in Scotland paid my travel and board, then I'd do that one.
If you can make £2000 playing in EU tourneys per month, or go to Korea, all expenses paid and have a chance at £1000 then the choice isn't very simple because you can argue the potential earning in korea in the long term is better, but garanteed income is a far better financial decision. Its like a sales executive being offered £60,000 a year working for one company or being offered the chance to earn £100,000 in commision but no salary at another company, most would take the garanteed income every time.
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On May 22 2011 02:39 AndreiDaGiant wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:35 Shifft wrote: If he seriously can't fathom why people wouldn't want to book plane tickets and a stay in Korea for a month on a few weeks' notice, giving up their chances to participate in the multitude of EU/NA events....I don't know just seems pretty dense.
GSL players may or may not be better than foreigners in terms of skill, we haven't really seen enough games to say for sure, but the financial and publicity benefits of going over to GSL are CERTAINLY not as good as the benefits of staying here. i agree this response seems really defensive and makes them look bad IMO... no reason to put down mlg and all other foreigners because they dont want to play in their tournament
Yeah, and it seems like they are saying GSL is so far above MLG skill-wise that seeding foreigners in Code S is very different from seeding Koreans in MLG. Well, if that is the case, why didn't the Koreans win MLG?
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On May 22 2011 02:53 TicketoHELL wrote: lets just face it foreigners dont think they can win GSL ever if they thought they could win it i dont see why they arent coming to korea GSL has the highest prizepool
....NASL has the highest prizepool and its online and you play like 1 BO3 every week so you can fit as many LANs as you want while doing it...think bro
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On May 22 2011 02:53 TicketoHELL wrote: lets just face it foreigners dont think they can win GSL ever if they thought they could win it i dont see why they arent coming to korea GSL has the highest prizepool
Wow, you dumb do you even read what the foreign players are saying?? Its not about the money its about the time. I know its hard to realise but people actually got a life outside sc2.
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On May 22 2011 02:53 PraetorianX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:39 AndreiDaGiant wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 Shifft wrote: If he seriously can't fathom why people wouldn't want to book plane tickets and a stay in Korea for a month on a few weeks' notice, giving up their chances to participate in the multitude of EU/NA events....I don't know just seems pretty dense.
GSL players may or may not be better than foreigners in terms of skill, we haven't really seen enough games to say for sure, but the financial and publicity benefits of going over to GSL are CERTAINLY not as good as the benefits of staying here. i agree this response seems really defensive and makes them look bad IMO... no reason to put down mlg and all other foreigners because they dont want to play in their tournament Yeah, and it seems like they are saying GSL is so far above MLG skill-wise that seeding foreigners in Code S is very different from seeding Koreans in MLG. Well, if that is the case, why didn't the Koreans win MLG?
Eh... which Koreans were at any of the previous MLG's?
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On May 22 2011 02:54 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:53 TicketoHELL wrote: lets just face it foreigners dont think they can win GSL ever if they thought they could win it i dont see why they arent coming to korea GSL has the highest prizepool
....NASL has the highest prizepool and its online and you play like 1 BO3 every week so you can fit as many LANs as you want while doing it...think bro nasl is like 3 months long its way longer than GSL and still GSL has higher prizepool
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I can't imagine this is anything else than PR. Anyone with a working cerebellum can see it's a horrible deal for foreigners.
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On May 22 2011 02:50 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:40 ktgster wrote: I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Yeah, Koreans like spanishiwa are just so far ahead of the metagame when it comes to innovating new styles and builds. When did spanishiwa become Korean?
Koreans culture versus western culture won't end well but hopefully this will lead to understanding each other better
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On May 22 2011 02:53 PraetorianX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:39 AndreiDaGiant wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 Shifft wrote: If he seriously can't fathom why people wouldn't want to book plane tickets and a stay in Korea for a month on a few weeks' notice, giving up their chances to participate in the multitude of EU/NA events....I don't know just seems pretty dense.
GSL players may or may not be better than foreigners in terms of skill, we haven't really seen enough games to say for sure, but the financial and publicity benefits of going over to GSL are CERTAINLY not as good as the benefits of staying here. i agree this response seems really defensive and makes them look bad IMO... no reason to put down mlg and all other foreigners because they dont want to play in their tournament Yeah, and it seems like they are saying GSL is so far above MLG skill-wise that seeding foreigners in Code S is very different from seeding Koreans in MLG. Well, if that is the case, why didn't the Koreans win MLG?
I think this is the first time that Koreans are attending MLG.
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On May 22 2011 02:49 yarkO wrote: Someone should link/translate him the article that Xeris recently wrote.
I believe he's seen it already, and that article proposed a few major changes, a couple of which were already made by GOMtv before Xeris wrote that article.
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On May 22 2011 02:56 TicketoHELL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:54 Dawski wrote:On May 22 2011 02:53 TicketoHELL wrote: lets just face it foreigners dont think they can win GSL ever if they thought they could win it i dont see why they arent coming to korea GSL has the highest prizepool
....NASL has the highest prizepool and its online and you play like 1 BO3 every week so you can fit as many LANs as you want while doing it...think bro nasl is like 3 months long its way longer than GSL and still GSL has higher prizepool
...."and you can fit almost any other LAN/other tourneys while you do it" and the costs of flights and staying in a hotel for a couple seasons if you want to have a go at code S championship
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On May 22 2011 02:55 Nerdslayer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:53 TicketoHELL wrote: lets just face it foreigners dont think they can win GSL ever if they thought they could win it i dont see why they arent coming to korea GSL has the highest prizepool
Wow, you dumb do you even read what the foreign players are saying?? Its not about the money its about the time. I know its hard to realise but people actually got a life outside sc2. yeah it is about the time too but in many interviews of foreigner player say they make more money off online tournaments. Its true they value their life outside sc2 but it is about money as well
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On May 22 2011 02:56 RndmGdNck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:50 w_Ender_w wrote:On May 22 2011 02:40 ktgster wrote: I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Yeah, Koreans like spanishiwa are just so far ahead of the metagame when it comes to innovating new styles and builds. When did spanishiwa become Korean? Koreans culture versus western culture won't end well but hopefully this will lead to understanding each other better
It was sarcasm.
This entire thread has turned into a korean vs foreigner battle. Just because a korean uses a build that someone uses here, doesn't mean they got it from them. People can and will come up with the same ideas. That is just a possibility, so don't jump to discredit the koreans.
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I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist Naniwa: ???
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On May 22 2011 02:50 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:40 ktgster wrote: I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Yeah, Koreans like spanishiwa are just so far ahead of the metagame when it comes to innovating new styles and builds.
There was also that comment from MC where he said that on average, he found European terrans to be tougher opponents than koreans. Compare, for example, the few thor rush builds seen in the GSL to what Thorzain did in the TSL. It's pretty clear that the koreans weren't the ones leading the way with that one.
I also think it's fair to say that the zvp style that people attribute to losira wasn't so much invented by him, but a major televised result of a metagame shift that was happening simultaneously around the world.
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On May 22 2011 02:22 Tanatos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:18 Lms0 wrote:Well, I think it's mainly the fact that you have to stay there for 1 month that is the problem for foreigner's  Actually with new change of format, a single season lasts for 6 weeks now.
But thats still over a month where you're basically limited to only playing in the hardest tournament in the world...
...I think the only way for this to be actually properly addressed is if/when Blizzard sort out the lagg issues so that players who do jump over to Korea for the GSL can also participate in other tournaments without having the lagg problems.
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On May 22 2011 02:58 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:56 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 02:54 Dawski wrote:On May 22 2011 02:53 TicketoHELL wrote: lets just face it foreigners dont think they can win GSL ever if they thought they could win it i dont see why they arent coming to korea GSL has the highest prizepool
....NASL has the highest prizepool and its online and you play like 1 BO3 every week so you can fit as many LANs as you want while doing it...think bro nasl is like 3 months long its way longer than GSL and still GSL has higher prizepool ...."and you can fit almost any other LAN/other tourneys while you do it" and the costs of flights and staying in a hotel for a couple seasons if you want to have a go at code S championship gom have their foreign house so the cost of hotel is irrelevant and the cost of flight can be covered by their teams
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On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote: I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist Naniwa: ???
That is a really good point...
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On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams. MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again
They don't have games scheduled at the MLG dates, that's about it, it's between two rounds of WC, you can't expect people to fly 12 hours, get 8-12 hour time difference and then play a tournament just to do the same thing again 3 days later. WC is really only one thing, a chance to earn fame. Too bad they would only invite players who are already well known anyways, in terms of money per time and effort the KR scence just doesn't cut it outside of Code S. Considering that half of Code S fights for survival after the first round it's understandable nobody wants to go there. Code A is crap, no other tourney in sight. gg.
Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests.
Considering that MC lost his TSL match on even grounds and all EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works) it's just not defendable to say KR > world. IEM was a bunch of matchup-wins (lol, remember the tie braker marathon?) on one side of the bracket, there's just no hard evidence for what he says. Then again, I doubt he follows the western scene and has any idea how good some of those guys are, that's just the korean way to look at Starcraft. A bit more diplomatical of an answer wouldn't have hurt the guy. I would even say he's right when he gives Code S a slight edge over MLG but it's just not what he does.
I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc)
Because they're televised and everybody watches, that's the main reason for meta-shifts...you can't shift the metagame with the magnitude of tournaments in the western scene because there's never an event everybody watches and never the possibility to prepare for a week for just one televised match. Look at Thorzain to see what happens when some of the westerners get to do this. Thor built anyone? Too bad it got nerfed instantly...
My main point however is still: wtf were they thinking having an age long tournament like this without announcing it early enough? And then talking trash about the western scene? Gosh, the guy goes on my nerves.
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On May 22 2011 03:01 AndreiDaGiant wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote: I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist Naniwa: ??? That is a really good point...
Agreed. The views of Koreans in SC2 are definitely not the same as how highly-regarded the Koreans are in SCBW
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On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote: I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist Naniwa: ??? compared with the koreans who has to go through hellish code a qualifier and beat your way up in code a to get code s its way more rewarding
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and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.
Did this piss anyone else off?
Nobody said this at all, did they? How arrogant is that?
What the fuck.
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The answer is simple. There aren't many foreign players who are willing to put in the time and effort to keep up with the Koreans. They may be successful for a brief period if they do move to Korea, but they know it will be very diffucilt to sustain the level of success to keep them in the competitive level. Soon, this will be BW all over. It's only a matter of time until the SC2 in Korea is professionalized.
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Yeah... and the GSL MLG agreement was so good too.... hey.. lets give these guys an auto seat into a weekend tourny for 5k, and exchange you get to come to our country for a month for like 2k.... I just am having a hard time understanding why Mr. Chae lee is finding it strange that people are not showing up.. And after the korean performance in the world championship can he really say that code S is so much better than MLG... Maybe some players...
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On May 22 2011 03:01 TicketoHELL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:58 Dawski wrote:On May 22 2011 02:56 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 02:54 Dawski wrote:On May 22 2011 02:53 TicketoHELL wrote: lets just face it foreigners dont think they can win GSL ever if they thought they could win it i dont see why they arent coming to korea GSL has the highest prizepool
....NASL has the highest prizepool and its online and you play like 1 BO3 every week so you can fit as many LANs as you want while doing it...think bro nasl is like 3 months long its way longer than GSL and still GSL has higher prizepool ...."and you can fit almost any other LAN/other tourneys while you do it" and the costs of flights and staying in a hotel for a couple seasons if you want to have a go at code S championship gom have their foreign house so the cost of hotel is irrelevant and the cost of flight can be covered by their teams
i dunno how many more "..." i can do to show you how at awe i am with your lack of money knowledge.
you have to be smart with your sponsors money because its not unlimited, you have to treat it like its your own.
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On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote: I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist Naniwa: ???
Where does he says that? Aren't they giving code S status to the winner of MLG after Columbus?
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On May 22 2011 03:02 Timerly wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams. MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again They don't have games scheduled at the MLG dates, that's about it, it's between two rounds of WC, you can't expect people to fly 12 hours, get 8-12 hour time difference and then play a tournament just to do the same thing again 3 days later. WC is really only one thing, a chance to earn fame. Too bad they would only invite players who are already well known anyways, in terms of money per time and effort the KR scence just doesn't cut it outside of Code S. Considering that half of Code S fights for survival after the first round it's understandable nobody wants to go there. Code A is crap, no other tourney in sight. gg. Show nested quote +Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests. Considering that MC lost his TSL match on even grounds and all EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works) it's just not defendable to say KR > world. IEM was a bunch of matchup-wins (lol, remember the tie braker marathon?) on one side of the bracket, there's just no hard evidence for what he says. Then again, I doubt he follows the western scene and has any idea how good some of those guys are, that's just the korean way to look at Starcraft. A bit more diplomatical of an answer wouldn't have hurt the guy. I would even say he's right when he gives Code S a slight edge over MLG but it's just not what he does. Show nested quote +I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Because they're televised and everybody watches, that's the main reason for meta-shifts...you can't shift the metagame with the magnitude of tournaments in the western scene because there's never an event everybody watches and never the possibility to prepare for a week for just one televised match. Look at Thorzain to see what happens when some of the westerners get to do this. Thor built anyone? Too bad it got nerfed instantly... My main point however is still: wtf were they thinking having an age long tournament like this without announcing it early enough? And then talking trash about the western scene? Gosh, the guy goes on my nerves. read the OP it clearly said that they sent the invitation for super tournament during the world championship it was announced early enough and he isnt talking trash about the western scene he just doesnt understand why the foreign players arent coming despite invitations even though they done so much for foreign in korea eg. gom house
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On May 22 2011 02:38 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams. MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. I think also with the addition of the NASL, IPL and MLG prize pools there isn't much reason for them to travel to korea. In BW, if you wanted to make money you kinda had to go to korea, thats not the case now, Koreans are playing in foreigner tourneys more and more because there is alot of money to be won........ why go to korea to play for a month and make $1500 when you could stay at home, play from your room and win big money in NASL et al. Korea isn't the mecca of SC2, its just not, and if the foreigner scene keeps growing like it as atm, it won't ever be. Even if the Koreans eventually become unbeatable, the rest of the world has a large enough scene with enough money behind it that there won't be the motivation to move to korea.
You do realize that this is the worst possible senario for the SC2 scene, right? Once Korea starts dominating, and it will happen unless foreigners start compete in Korea where the level of competition is on another level, all the other major tourneys you mentioned will mostly likely be won by Koreans. How is this good for the nature of the SC2 e-sport?
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On May 22 2011 03:04 Subversion wrote:Did this piss anyone else off? Nobody said this at all, did they? How arrogant is that? What the fuck.
Yeah, it's a pretty shitty thing for a gom rep to be saying. Stands in stark contrast to what the guys at playxp, who are far more likely to be watching international competition, are saying.
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On May 22 2011 03:05 Yamulo wrote: And after the korean performance in the world championship can he really say that code S is so much better than MLG... Maybe some players...
Wasn't Dimaga the only player to actually beat a korean in the world champioship? He and TT1 the only one to go to the second round, but TT1 had faced another foreigner?
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
I understand where these foreign players are coming from, but as an esports fan I am not really interested in them as players if they don't want to test themselves and compete on the biggest stage.
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On May 22 2011 03:06 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote: I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist Naniwa: ??? Where does he says that? Aren't they giving code S status to the winner of MLG after Columbus?
He said GSL and MLG aren't on the same level, but that they give MLG winners a Code S seed anyway. Which is essentially him saying "we're being really nice to you even though you're worse than us".
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On May 22 2011 03:04 Subversion wrote:Did this piss anyone else off? Nobody said this at all, did they? How arrogant is that? What the fuck. ok you got this wrong read the paragraph again it says that foreign fans not the gom people
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KOREAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! Only nubzz decide not to go there to compete... FACT!!!
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On May 22 2011 03:02 Timerly wrote: ..EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works)...
I believe a lot of the progamers who have tried playing both EU->NA and KR->NA disagree with that "nearly neutral ground" idea.
Not sure why it is turning into this argument anyway. I don't know why anyone would honestly believe there's no difference between the top 32 players at MLG and the Code S players.
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On May 22 2011 03:09 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:06 L3gendary wrote:On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote: I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist Naniwa: ??? Where does he says that? Aren't they giving code S status to the winner of MLG after Columbus? He said GSL and MLG aren't on the same level, but that they give MLG winners a Code S seed anyway. Which is essentially him saying "we're being really nice to you even though you're worse than us".
In his interview he talks about giving foreigners Code S spots, so he may be talking about giving the spot to the best foreigner even if a korean does better, like they do for Code A.
Also, most people are comparing the best foreigners to the average or worse Code S players. It's a lot harder to say Naniwa is better tha MvP, Nestea or MC or that, like said a few posts above, the 32 top seeded MLG players are overall better than GSL.
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On May 22 2011 03:09 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:06 L3gendary wrote:On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote: I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist Naniwa: ??? Where does he says that? Aren't they giving code S status to the winner of MLG after Columbus? He said GSL and MLG aren't on the same level, but that they give MLG winners a Code S seed anyway. Which is essentially him saying "we're being really nice to you even though you're worse than us". i dont think its about the skill level they are talking about but rather the amount of effort to get to Code S you win a 3 day MLG and you get automatically code S when others have fight out over a months to get there
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On May 22 2011 03:07 TicketoHELL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:02 Timerly wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams. MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again They don't have games scheduled at the MLG dates, that's about it, it's between two rounds of WC, you can't expect people to fly 12 hours, get 8-12 hour time difference and then play a tournament just to do the same thing again 3 days later. WC is really only one thing, a chance to earn fame. Too bad they would only invite players who are already well known anyways, in terms of money per time and effort the KR scence just doesn't cut it outside of Code S. Considering that half of Code S fights for survival after the first round it's understandable nobody wants to go there. Code A is crap, no other tourney in sight. gg. Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests. Considering that MC lost his TSL match on even grounds and all EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works) it's just not defendable to say KR > world. IEM was a bunch of matchup-wins (lol, remember the tie braker marathon?) on one side of the bracket, there's just no hard evidence for what he says. Then again, I doubt he follows the western scene and has any idea how good some of those guys are, that's just the korean way to look at Starcraft. A bit more diplomatical of an answer wouldn't have hurt the guy. I would even say he's right when he gives Code S a slight edge over MLG but it's just not what he does. I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Because they're televised and everybody watches, that's the main reason for meta-shifts...you can't shift the metagame with the magnitude of tournaments in the western scene because there's never an event everybody watches and never the possibility to prepare for a week for just one televised match. Look at Thorzain to see what happens when some of the westerners get to do this. Thor built anyone? Too bad it got nerfed instantly... My main point however is still: wtf were they thinking having an age long tournament like this without announcing it early enough? And then talking trash about the western scene? Gosh, the guy goes on my nerves. read the OP it clearly said that they sent the invitation for super tournament during the world championship it was announced early enough and he isnt talking trash about the western scene he just doesnt understand why the foreign players arent coming despite invitations even though they done so much for foreign in korea eg. gom house
no the OP doesnt "clearly" say anything, its a translation and things can be misinterpreted. There are 2 ways to translate that. It is either 1) your translation that they sent it out during the WC. or 2) (and this one seems to make the most sense due to how foriegn teams said there wasnt much time and i doubt they were lying) that they gave the same amount of warning time as they did with WC which was 2 weeks for a small tourney that wouldnt take long compared to 2 weeks for a super tourney that would last a month or more
Edit: and hey finally a post i agree with you about. GSL takes too much time to get to Code S compared to MLGs 3 day tourney which is why it isnt equal imo
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On May 22 2011 03:09 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:06 L3gendary wrote:On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote: I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist Naniwa: ??? Where does he says that? Aren't they giving code S status to the winner of MLG after Columbus? He said GSL and MLG aren't on the same level, but that they give MLG winners a Code S seed anyway. Which is essentially him saying "we're being really nice to you even though you're worse than us".
That maybe your interpretation but I don't agree at all. He was only comparing the seeding. Basically saying that GSL players should get higher seeds in MLG than vice versa. Which I think is fair considering the level of competition in the open bracket at MLG vs code A koreans. Is there really a comparison?
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You do realize that this is the worst possible senario for the SC2 scene, right? Once Korea starts dominating, and it will happen unless foreigners start compete in Korea where the level of competition is on another level, all the other major tourneys you mentioned will mostly likely be won by Koreans. How is this good for the nature of the SC2 e-sport? I dunno ... I have to say that the Chinese have been impressing me a lot lately (esp. XiaOt). They completely wiped the floor with most of the Koreans in the StarsWar Killer 6 tournament.
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"Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.'"
I seriously doubt that's what's scaring people
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I'd think it would be ok to go to Korea as a team.. If you can participate in GSTL too. Then you'd have GSL + GSTL and some Korean online tournaments.. But I don't really know. Let's see how things go after MLG etc.
Would like to see some more foreigners tough :| But seriously.. one month in Korea just for GSL is a bit too much :/
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On May 22 2011 03:11 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:07 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:02 Timerly wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams. MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again They don't have games scheduled at the MLG dates, that's about it, it's between two rounds of WC, you can't expect people to fly 12 hours, get 8-12 hour time difference and then play a tournament just to do the same thing again 3 days later. WC is really only one thing, a chance to earn fame. Too bad they would only invite players who are already well known anyways, in terms of money per time and effort the KR scence just doesn't cut it outside of Code S. Considering that half of Code S fights for survival after the first round it's understandable nobody wants to go there. Code A is crap, no other tourney in sight. gg. Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests. Considering that MC lost his TSL match on even grounds and all EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works) it's just not defendable to say KR > world. IEM was a bunch of matchup-wins (lol, remember the tie braker marathon?) on one side of the bracket, there's just no hard evidence for what he says. Then again, I doubt he follows the western scene and has any idea how good some of those guys are, that's just the korean way to look at Starcraft. A bit more diplomatical of an answer wouldn't have hurt the guy. I would even say he's right when he gives Code S a slight edge over MLG but it's just not what he does. I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Because they're televised and everybody watches, that's the main reason for meta-shifts...you can't shift the metagame with the magnitude of tournaments in the western scene because there's never an event everybody watches and never the possibility to prepare for a week for just one televised match. Look at Thorzain to see what happens when some of the westerners get to do this. Thor built anyone? Too bad it got nerfed instantly... My main point however is still: wtf were they thinking having an age long tournament like this without announcing it early enough? And then talking trash about the western scene? Gosh, the guy goes on my nerves. read the OP it clearly said that they sent the invitation for super tournament during the world championship it was announced early enough and he isnt talking trash about the western scene he just doesnt understand why the foreign players arent coming despite invitations even though they done so much for foreign in korea eg. gom house no the OP doesnt "clearly" say anything, its a translation and things can be misinterpreted. There are 2 ways to translate that. It is either 1) your translation that they sent it out during the WC. or 2) (and this one seems to make the most sense due to how foriegn teams said there wasnt much time and i doubt they were lying) that they gave the same amount of warning time as they did with WC which was 2 weeks for a small tourney that wouldnt take long compared to 2 weeks for a super tourney that would last a month or more ok im not basing my argument purely off the translation i can read korean so im basing off from the orginal document as well and in the original document it says that they sent out the invitation at the same time they sent out WC invitation but they participated in WC but not super tournament
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On May 22 2011 03:09 TicketoHELL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:04 Subversion wrote:and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans. Did this piss anyone else off? Nobody said this at all, did they? How arrogant is that? What the fuck. ok you got this wrong read the paragraph again it says that foreign fans not the gom people
I always read that foreigners regarded Koreans has very strong and powerful, previously on a level of unbeatable(ness).
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I think that while it's true that foreigners are not that far away from the good koreans, (while still being somewhat far from real top koreans), I think that is completely irrelevant. The thing is, foreigners are asking for WAY too much from GOM in this player exchange, they pretty much want 4 seeds into code S por top MLG players, this is absolutely crazy and unfair to code A players, particularly considering code A is probably tougher than all of MLG.
The problem is that the differences in the type of tournament make it impossible to make a "truly fair" exchange. GOM will not and should not change the tourney into a weekend-long tournament. Their tournament is a month-long season, which tries to emulate the BW system. If foreigners do not want to play because they believe the risk is too high, so be it, but they ARE offering a unique possibility, and it's theirs for the taking.
It's obviously understandable, people have lives in their homes, so they might not want to leave, however, asking for more from GOM is ridiculous. Maybe they should just make more world championships, that's a decent format for foreigners.
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On May 22 2011 03:12 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:09 coddan wrote:On May 22 2011 03:06 L3gendary wrote:On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote: I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist Naniwa: ??? Where does he says that? Aren't they giving code S status to the winner of MLG after Columbus? He said GSL and MLG aren't on the same level, but that they give MLG winners a Code S seed anyway. Which is essentially him saying "we're being really nice to you even though you're worse than us". That maybe your interpretation but I don't agree at all. He was only comparing the seeding. Basically saying that GSL players should get higher seeds in MLG than vice versa. Which I think is fair considering the level of competition in the open bracket at MLG vs code A koreans. Is there really a comparison? I don't understand what you mean. They were placed in the group stages, not the open bracket. How could they get a higher seed? It's exactly the same as foreigners being put in Code S instead of Code A (where the ones who dont finish first will be placed anyway)
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On May 22 2011 03:13 Shalaiyn wrote: "Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.'"
I seriously doubt that's what's scaring people i think gom got that from reading off some posts from super tournament thread from TL some random posters saying that statement here and there but thats minority
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On May 22 2011 03:11 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:07 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:02 Timerly wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams. MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again They don't have games scheduled at the MLG dates, that's about it, it's between two rounds of WC, you can't expect people to fly 12 hours, get 8-12 hour time difference and then play a tournament just to do the same thing again 3 days later. WC is really only one thing, a chance to earn fame. Too bad they would only invite players who are already well known anyways, in terms of money per time and effort the KR scence just doesn't cut it outside of Code S. Considering that half of Code S fights for survival after the first round it's understandable nobody wants to go there. Code A is crap, no other tourney in sight. gg. Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests. Considering that MC lost his TSL match on even grounds and all EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works) it's just not defendable to say KR > world. IEM was a bunch of matchup-wins (lol, remember the tie braker marathon?) on one side of the bracket, there's just no hard evidence for what he says. Then again, I doubt he follows the western scene and has any idea how good some of those guys are, that's just the korean way to look at Starcraft. A bit more diplomatical of an answer wouldn't have hurt the guy. I would even say he's right when he gives Code S a slight edge over MLG but it's just not what he does. I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Because they're televised and everybody watches, that's the main reason for meta-shifts...you can't shift the metagame with the magnitude of tournaments in the western scene because there's never an event everybody watches and never the possibility to prepare for a week for just one televised match. Look at Thorzain to see what happens when some of the westerners get to do this. Thor built anyone? Too bad it got nerfed instantly... My main point however is still: wtf were they thinking having an age long tournament like this without announcing it early enough? And then talking trash about the western scene? Gosh, the guy goes on my nerves. read the OP it clearly said that they sent the invitation for super tournament during the world championship it was announced early enough and he isnt talking trash about the western scene he just doesnt understand why the foreign players arent coming despite invitations even though they done so much for foreign in korea eg. gom house no the OP doesnt "clearly" say anything, its a translation and things can be misinterpreted. There are 2 ways to translate that. It is either 1) your translation that they sent it out during the WC. or 2) (and this one seems to make the most sense due to how foriegn teams said there wasnt much time and i doubt they were lying) that they gave the same amount of warning time as they did with WC which was 2 weeks for a small tourney that wouldnt take long compared to 2 weeks for a super tourney that would last a month or more Edit: and hey finally a post i agree with you about. GSL takes too much time to get to Code S compared to MLGs 3 day tourney which is why it isnt equal imo
You are correct and i will change the op. Sorry for confusion.
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He doesn't seem to understand the issues. I think every pro player would jump at the chance to compete in Korea at the highest level, but there's too much they have to sacrifice to compete in a month long tournament. Add in the logistical difficulties for the teams and it's not very easy to do.
I do have hope since Gom seems to be willing to adjust their schedules and their previous plans. They readjusted GSTL and they added top foreign tournaments to their schedule.
This kind of relationship between Korea and the foreign scene has never been done, so everyone is just testing the water. Hopefully Gom will continue to make adjustments to accommodate the needs of foreigners and their teams.
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On May 22 2011 03:14 TicketoHELL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:11 Dawski wrote:On May 22 2011 03:07 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:02 Timerly wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams. MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again They don't have games scheduled at the MLG dates, that's about it, it's between two rounds of WC, you can't expect people to fly 12 hours, get 8-12 hour time difference and then play a tournament just to do the same thing again 3 days later. WC is really only one thing, a chance to earn fame. Too bad they would only invite players who are already well known anyways, in terms of money per time and effort the KR scence just doesn't cut it outside of Code S. Considering that half of Code S fights for survival after the first round it's understandable nobody wants to go there. Code A is crap, no other tourney in sight. gg. Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests. Considering that MC lost his TSL match on even grounds and all EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works) it's just not defendable to say KR > world. IEM was a bunch of matchup-wins (lol, remember the tie braker marathon?) on one side of the bracket, there's just no hard evidence for what he says. Then again, I doubt he follows the western scene and has any idea how good some of those guys are, that's just the korean way to look at Starcraft. A bit more diplomatical of an answer wouldn't have hurt the guy. I would even say he's right when he gives Code S a slight edge over MLG but it's just not what he does. I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Because they're televised and everybody watches, that's the main reason for meta-shifts...you can't shift the metagame with the magnitude of tournaments in the western scene because there's never an event everybody watches and never the possibility to prepare for a week for just one televised match. Look at Thorzain to see what happens when some of the westerners get to do this. Thor built anyone? Too bad it got nerfed instantly... My main point however is still: wtf were they thinking having an age long tournament like this without announcing it early enough? And then talking trash about the western scene? Gosh, the guy goes on my nerves. read the OP it clearly said that they sent the invitation for super tournament during the world championship it was announced early enough and he isnt talking trash about the western scene he just doesnt understand why the foreign players arent coming despite invitations even though they done so much for foreign in korea eg. gom house no the OP doesnt "clearly" say anything, its a translation and things can be misinterpreted. There are 2 ways to translate that. It is either 1) your translation that they sent it out during the WC. or 2) (and this one seems to make the most sense due to how foriegn teams said there wasnt much time and i doubt they were lying) that they gave the same amount of warning time as they did with WC which was 2 weeks for a small tourney that wouldnt take long compared to 2 weeks for a super tourney that would last a month or more ok im not basing my argument purely off the translation i can read korean so im basing off from the orginal document as well and in the original document it says that they sent out the invitation at the same time they sent out WC invitation but they participated in WC but not super tournament
Well then say you read it yourself in korean in your original points, my point stands that the OP doesnt clearly say anything because the OP IS a translation.
My guess then is the teams didnt want to attend both and decided just to choose either the WC or Super Tourney and its obvious which one they would choose for time/chance of success
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this has already been discussed and stated ad nauseam, but it's just an issue of opportunity cost
go to Korea to participate in Super Tournament, commit a great deal of time for Super Tournament, go to Korea while not knowing who your practice partners will be, be very limited in participating in online tournaments outside Korea
the foreigner invites do not want to go to Korea and limit themselves to only being able to participate in the Super Tournament. they prefer choosing the risk/reward of being able to play comfortably in non-Korean online tournaments than the risk/reward of going to Korea and basically playing in only the Super Tournament.
the foreign SC2 e-sports scene is at such a point where it is sufficient enough to satiate the desires and goals of foreign SC2 progamers.
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I think someone like thorzain in the GSL will have a verry good chance to win when he has a chance to sit down and plan a best of x series he looks verry good as shown in the TSL
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On May 22 2011 03:19 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:14 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:11 Dawski wrote:On May 22 2011 03:07 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:02 Timerly wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams. MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again They don't have games scheduled at the MLG dates, that's about it, it's between two rounds of WC, you can't expect people to fly 12 hours, get 8-12 hour time difference and then play a tournament just to do the same thing again 3 days later. WC is really only one thing, a chance to earn fame. Too bad they would only invite players who are already well known anyways, in terms of money per time and effort the KR scence just doesn't cut it outside of Code S. Considering that half of Code S fights for survival after the first round it's understandable nobody wants to go there. Code A is crap, no other tourney in sight. gg. Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests. Considering that MC lost his TSL match on even grounds and all EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works) it's just not defendable to say KR > world. IEM was a bunch of matchup-wins (lol, remember the tie braker marathon?) on one side of the bracket, there's just no hard evidence for what he says. Then again, I doubt he follows the western scene and has any idea how good some of those guys are, that's just the korean way to look at Starcraft. A bit more diplomatical of an answer wouldn't have hurt the guy. I would even say he's right when he gives Code S a slight edge over MLG but it's just not what he does. I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Because they're televised and everybody watches, that's the main reason for meta-shifts...you can't shift the metagame with the magnitude of tournaments in the western scene because there's never an event everybody watches and never the possibility to prepare for a week for just one televised match. Look at Thorzain to see what happens when some of the westerners get to do this. Thor built anyone? Too bad it got nerfed instantly... My main point however is still: wtf were they thinking having an age long tournament like this without announcing it early enough? And then talking trash about the western scene? Gosh, the guy goes on my nerves. read the OP it clearly said that they sent the invitation for super tournament during the world championship it was announced early enough and he isnt talking trash about the western scene he just doesnt understand why the foreign players arent coming despite invitations even though they done so much for foreign in korea eg. gom house no the OP doesnt "clearly" say anything, its a translation and things can be misinterpreted. There are 2 ways to translate that. It is either 1) your translation that they sent it out during the WC. or 2) (and this one seems to make the most sense due to how foriegn teams said there wasnt much time and i doubt they were lying) that they gave the same amount of warning time as they did with WC which was 2 weeks for a small tourney that wouldnt take long compared to 2 weeks for a super tourney that would last a month or more ok im not basing my argument purely off the translation i can read korean so im basing off from the orginal document as well and in the original document it says that they sent out the invitation at the same time they sent out WC invitation but they participated in WC but not super tournament Well then say you read it yourself in korean in your original points, my point stands that the OP doesnt clearly say anything because the OP IS a translation. My guess then is the teams didnt want to attend both and decided just to choose either the WC or Super Tourney and its obvious which one they would choose for time/chance of success yeah i should have said that my mistake also on your point WC gives out 10 times more prizepool than super tournament if you just attend
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On May 22 2011 03:11 Dawski wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:07 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:02 Timerly wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams. MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again They don't have games scheduled at the MLG dates, that's about it, it's between two rounds of WC, you can't expect people to fly 12 hours, get 8-12 hour time difference and then play a tournament just to do the same thing again 3 days later. WC is really only one thing, a chance to earn fame. Too bad they would only invite players who are already well known anyways, in terms of money per time and effort the KR scence just doesn't cut it outside of Code S. Considering that half of Code S fights for survival after the first round it's understandable nobody wants to go there. Code A is crap, no other tourney in sight. gg. Well, to be honest, koreans have dominated all of the recent offline tournaments (IEM, GSL WC, dreamhack, Copenhagen...), and only time they have not dominated is in the online cross server competitions (NASL, TSL, Starswar...), so the guy is not completely without merit. But the gap is not as big as he suggests. Considering that MC lost his TSL match on even grounds and all EU vs KR matches were played on nearly neutral grounds (yes, US is a BIT laggier for KR, doesn't matter much with the way SC2 netcode works) it's just not defendable to say KR > world. IEM was a bunch of matchup-wins (lol, remember the tie braker marathon?) on one side of the bracket, there's just no hard evidence for what he says. Then again, I doubt he follows the western scene and has any idea how good some of those guys are, that's just the korean way to look at Starcraft. A bit more diplomatical of an answer wouldn't have hurt the guy. I would even say he's right when he gives Code S a slight edge over MLG but it's just not what he does. I don't think people understand the korean scene...Almost Every meta-game shift is started by some new strategy/idea on the KR server or from a GSL match. They are the ones who experiment and they are the ones that everyone copies. They are so refined due to their massive amounts of practice. Code S is just on a higher level, but I believe that very skilled foreigners can still compete against them (Sen, naniwa, idra, etc) Because they're televised and everybody watches, that's the main reason for meta-shifts...you can't shift the metagame with the magnitude of tournaments in the western scene because there's never an event everybody watches and never the possibility to prepare for a week for just one televised match. Look at Thorzain to see what happens when some of the westerners get to do this. Thor built anyone? Too bad it got nerfed instantly... My main point however is still: wtf were they thinking having an age long tournament like this without announcing it early enough? And then talking trash about the western scene? Gosh, the guy goes on my nerves. read the OP it clearly said that they sent the invitation for super tournament during the world championship it was announced early enough and he isnt talking trash about the western scene he just doesnt understand why the foreign players arent coming despite invitations even though they done so much for foreign in korea eg. gom house no the OP doesnt "clearly" say anything, its a translation and things can be misinterpreted. There are 2 ways to translate that. It is either 1) your translation that they sent it out during the WC. or 2) (and this one seems to make the most sense due to how foriegn teams said there wasnt much time and i doubt they were lying) that they gave the same amount of warning time as they did with WC which was 2 weeks for a small tourney that wouldnt take long compared to 2 weeks for a super tourney that would last a month or more Edit: and hey finally a post i agree with you about. GSL takes too much time to get to Code S compared to MLGs 3 day tourney which is why it isnt equal imo
The translation is somewhat vague, but I can tell you that he's implying that the invitation was sent out with the same amount of advanced warning as the WC - that's why he says he doesn't understand why foreigners accepted one, but not the other when both events allowed the same amount of time to prep.
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It's impossible to combine the Korean and western scene due to geographical issues alone. I don't think they should even try.
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It's a matter of dedication. As DIMAGA said, he can't commit to korean super tournament because of his family and girlfriend. This case seems to be similar to a lot of other foreigners'. Not saying that having a life is bad, but it definitely impedes progaming career.
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I believe one major advantage the Koreans have over the foreigners is a very well established team that live together, along with a team manager and a coach. In tournaments that really matters (ie: GSL) you have an entire team to support you by helping you research on your opponent's playstyle, and help you develop as well as practice for the counterbuild.
Leaving home is a big decision to make. Xeris made a good post about the troubles of going to Korea: adjusting to the culture, needing to find new practice partners, etc etc. I wonder how many Korean players are willing to leave their home for a few weeks to play in a foreign tournament (of which they are not guaranteed to qualify in?
Foreign tournaments for the most part have a "world wide" perspective in mind - they understand players come from all over the world. To play in the IEM/MLG all you have to do is fly over for a few days and you will be done - something easily accomplished.
I bet if GOM starts a GSOL (online league) a lot of foreigners will start to dominate through sheer skill, talent, and innovative play style.
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On May 22 2011 02:58 Tanatos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:53 PraetorianX wrote:On May 22 2011 02:39 AndreiDaGiant wrote:On May 22 2011 02:35 Shifft wrote: If he seriously can't fathom why people wouldn't want to book plane tickets and a stay in Korea for a month on a few weeks' notice, giving up their chances to participate in the multitude of EU/NA events....I don't know just seems pretty dense.
GSL players may or may not be better than foreigners in terms of skill, we haven't really seen enough games to say for sure, but the financial and publicity benefits of going over to GSL are CERTAINLY not as good as the benefits of staying here. i agree this response seems really defensive and makes them look bad IMO... no reason to put down mlg and all other foreigners because they dont want to play in their tournament Yeah, and it seems like they are saying GSL is so far above MLG skill-wise that seeding foreigners in Code S is very different from seeding Koreans in MLG. Well, if that is the case, why didn't the Koreans win MLG? I think this is the first time that Koreans are attending MLG.
Select is korean, get own
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On May 22 2011 02:18 Lms0 wrote:Well, I think it's mainly the fact that you have to stay there for 1 month that is the problem for foreigner's  Maybe a sign that some of them should get jobs for a few months?
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The problem is Blizzard's really.
There is no justification for cutting off entire segments and sections of the world, when the medium we play the game through can do so much better.
Imagine a world where a player could live in Korea for the prestigous live events, travel to the weekend events like MLG + ESL, and while training still play in the NASL, IPL, Go4SC2 monthly final, Eg masters cup and various clanwars and showmatches.
However, due to the awful connection between KR and RoW you must chose GSL OR any other big events + online cups - and the money is all in the second of those options.
And yet this should not be a choice players have to make.
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I think the people at Gom need to take a survey of foreign players and get an idea of just how much income some of these regular tournaments, weekend live events, showmatches, and leagues generate for them. What happens if they get a tough draw, and get knocked out first round? That's a lot of money spent for nothing gained.
I'd love to hear some of the reactions of korean players to this news, to get their perspective on all of this.
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On May 22 2011 03:24 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:18 Lms0 wrote:Well, I think it's mainly the fact that you have to stay there for 1 month that is the problem for foreigner's  Maybe a sign that some of them should get jobs for a few months? That's a pretty dumb thing to say. They have jobs. Professional gaming, maybe you've heard of it.
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On May 22 2011 03:24 Hikari wrote: I believe one major advantage the Koreans have over the foreigners is a very well established team that live together, along with a team manager and a coach. In tournaments that really matters (ie: GSL) you have an entire team to support you by helping you research on your opponent's playstyle, and help you develop as well as practice for the counterbuild.
Leaving home is a big decision to make. Xeris made a good post about the troubles of going to Korea: adjusting to the culture, needing to find new practice partners, etc etc. I wonder how many Korean players are willing to leave their home for a few weeks to play in a foreign tournament (of which they are not guaranteed to qualify in?
Foreign tournaments for the most part have a "world wide" perspective in mind - they understand players come from all over the world. To play in the IEM/MLG all you have to do is fly over for a few days and you will be done - something easily accomplished.
I bet if GOM starts a GSOL (online league) a lot of foreigners will start to dominate through sheer skill, talent, and innovative play style.
If this GSOL is played on KR server, I very much doubt foreigners will dominate, lol. They already said that KR ladder is harder than all other ladders.
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On May 22 2011 03:25 Haydin wrote: I think the people at Gom need to take a survey of foreign players and get an idea of just how much income some of these regular tournaments, weekend live events, showmatches, and leagues generate for them. What happens if they get a tough draw, and get knocked out first round? That's a lot of money spent for nothing gained.
I'd love to hear some of the reactions of korean players to this news, to get their perspective on all of this. No, you're getting it wrong. Main income should not come from prize money, it should come from a salary paid by the team. BW progamers don't rely on prize money to make a living.
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"You mean I have to live in one of the greatest cities on the planet for a month, one which thousands of SC fans wish they could visit, in order to compete for an incredible experience and prize pool?
ABSURD! I can maybe win a few 50$ weekly European cups, who wants to go to Korea!"
Since when have foreigners EVER played for money?
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On May 22 2011 03:25 resilve wrote: There is no justification for cutting off entire segments and sections of the world, when the medium we play the game through can do so much better.
If they aren't lying, there is actually. From what we've been told, it isn't feasible for Blizzard to setup the servers so that everyone can play together.
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Man, I wish they had invited me... I would've accepted it in a heartbeat. I don't know what you kids are talking about with how you wouldn't do it.
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On May 22 2011 03:16 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:12 L3gendary wrote:On May 22 2011 03:09 coddan wrote:On May 22 2011 03:06 L3gendary wrote:On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote: I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist Naniwa: ??? Where does he says that? Aren't they giving code S status to the winner of MLG after Columbus? He said GSL and MLG aren't on the same level, but that they give MLG winners a Code S seed anyway. Which is essentially him saying "we're being really nice to you even though you're worse than us". That maybe your interpretation but I don't agree at all. He was only comparing the seeding. Basically saying that GSL players should get higher seeds in MLG than vice versa. Which I think is fair considering the level of competition in the open bracket at MLG vs code A koreans. Is there really a comparison? I don't understand what you mean. They were placed in the group stages, not the open bracket. How could they get a higher seed? It's exactly the same as foreigners being put in Code S instead of Code A (where the ones who dont finish first will be placed anyway)
No I'm comparing the level of competition between the open pool and Code A which justifies the reason why 4 (mostly code A) koreans get seeded directly into the championship pool compared with the 1 foreigner getting into code S.
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the WC was like a 2 week stay, so it was like a mini-vacation. With the super tournament being a month, it kind of cuts into your life/comfort and it becomes less of a vacation and more of a bother.
So it boils down to a choice between comfort and competitive drive. Not that foreigners are lacking in the motivation department... I mean an unparalleled desire to be the best and train with the best so great that you are willing to sacrifice many things.
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On May 22 2011 03:25 resilve wrote: The problem is Blizzard's really.
There is no justification for cutting off entire segments and sections of the world, when the medium we play the game through can do so much better.
Imagine a world where a player could live in Korea for the prestigous live events, travel to the weekend events like MLG + ESL, and while training still play in the NASL, IPL, Go4SC2 monthly final, Eg masters cup and various clanwars and showmatches.
However, due to the awful connection between KR and RoW you must chose GSL OR any other big events + online cups - and the money is all in the second of those options.
And yet this should not be a choice players have to make.
Yeah I forgot Blizzard owns the internets
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On May 22 2011 03:28 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:25 Haydin wrote: I think the people at Gom need to take a survey of foreign players and get an idea of just how much income some of these regular tournaments, weekend live events, showmatches, and leagues generate for them. What happens if they get a tough draw, and get knocked out first round? That's a lot of money spent for nothing gained.
I'd love to hear some of the reactions of korean players to this news, to get their perspective on all of this. No, you're getting it wrong. Main income should not come from prize money, it should come from a salary paid by the team. BW progamers don't rely on prize money to make a living.
SC2 isn't big enough to give everyone salaries. some foreigner teams do provide salaries. no idea how much, but some players do receive a salary.
BW isn't even big enough to give all their B teamers a real salary.
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Fact: Very, very few people want to live in Korea for a month. The language barrier just by itself would suck, but when you add in the cost of making the trip, then Korea pretty much loses all its shine.
Hell, even if I had family in Korea, I wouldn't want to stay there for a month.
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On May 22 2011 03:25 resilve wrote: The problem is Blizzard's really.
There is no justification for cutting off entire segments and sections of the world, when the medium we play the game through can do so much better.
Imagine a world where a player could live in Korea for the prestigous live events, travel to the weekend events like MLG + ESL, and while training still play in the NASL, IPL, Go4SC2 monthly final, Eg masters cup and various clanwars and showmatches.
However, due to the awful connection between KR and RoW you must chose GSL OR any other big events + online cups - and the money is all in the second of those options.
And yet this should not be a choice players have to make.
The more I think about it, the less I think players care about their NASL matches. I don't think "having to play my NASL match under worse conditions" really factors into their decision making that much.
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On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote: I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist Naniwa: ???
What he's saying is I think a response to people commentating code S spots should be given to foreigners. While being in code S alone grants you 1350 USD or something. And with code A becoming more competitive every season. I think that's more than fair. But most importantly after Columbus, the MLG champion does get code S. It will however not "transfer down" meaning if a Korean wins, he also wins the code S spot.
First page really sucked btw. One liner questions with arguably its answer in the article. Open up page 2 BOOM, tons of paragraphs, people getting into discussion points etc. Lovely! Don't respond just to respond, you add close to nothing.
Now what I just want to interject is the following. Lets say we are unable to truly say if one region is stronger than the others. What could happen is that in the future one side will become stronger and those players will start to win a lot more events. On this I want to make a couple points.
Lets say you are from the region that is behind and you are a weaker player. What are you win chances then? Where is the money that you are going to earn? It's very plausible that if that one region starts to dominate. It won't be a profitable profession anymore and people will quit and find other income.
In that situation, you would have to be one of the stronger players to maintain your income. You would have to go back in time to start to become one of the stronger players.
Back in time until this moment right here. Where you had and or will have the opportunity to invest in yourself. By going to Korea and immersing yourself in the competition and the culture.
I truly believe that, what I base a lot of this perception on, it is the best place to develop yourself as a player. You might be there for months, working your ass off with little to no reward. Only to emerge as a legit code S player beating great players along the way truly earning that spot. You might fail to qualify countless times and become one of the few players residing there without any real achievements. Only to fly out and win MLG, come back qualify for code S and do excellent making it to the semi finals of the most prestigous Starcraft 2 tournament to date, back to back.
What will the future have in store? Only time will tell, you could say their hard work wasn't worth it or didn't add anything. You could say you can stay home for now and be fine. Only in hindsight will we be able to decide what the best course of action would've been. But I feel this journey does pay off in the end.
Simply put. You become great and get paid, you don't get paid to become great. That's why I feel the same as the caster.
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On May 22 2011 03:32 udgnim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:28 AlBundy wrote:On May 22 2011 03:25 Haydin wrote: I think the people at Gom need to take a survey of foreign players and get an idea of just how much income some of these regular tournaments, weekend live events, showmatches, and leagues generate for them. What happens if they get a tough draw, and get knocked out first round? That's a lot of money spent for nothing gained.
I'd love to hear some of the reactions of korean players to this news, to get their perspective on all of this. No, you're getting it wrong. Main income should not come from prize money, it should come from a salary paid by the team. BW progamers don't rely on prize money to make a living. SC2 isn't big enough to give everyone salaries. some foreigner teams do provide salaries. no idea how much, but some players do receive a salary. BW isn't even big enough to give all their B teamers a real salary. Fair enough, thanks for the clarification. Still, money should not be an issue, nor the main motivation of gamers when it comes to such a huge tournament. I mean, what about the love of the competition what about the fame and glory? This super tournament is a huge opportunity.
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I'm curious how many (non-KR) progamers are actually "professionals" in that that's all (or, say, 80%+) of what they do for a living. It's seemed to me that a lot (maybe not at the very top, but fairly extensively nonetheless) of foreign "pros" put in closer to what would be "part-time work" in another field, or even just amateur (as opposed to professional, not as in bad) play. Even for full-time sponsored pros, I don't know how many hours are actually put in, how many have dedicated practice partners, etc.
Whereas BW in Korea, with its imposed licensing structure (and Korean work ethic) created an atmosphere of full- to overtime work being the norm, with structured teams etc.
We've got an issue here where, even if some of the players are very good, the atmosphere is really really different (though with Western teams starting houses etc. that may be changing) - and I don't know if the GSL organizers/Korea in general realize how much of a different lifestyle they're asking their invitees to put up with for, again, what is a single tournament which conflicts with others.
(And honestly, how prestigious is the GSL? It's still got the Korean aura, and the Korean scene may assume it's the best. On the other hand it runs so non-stop, the game is changing so much, and - deliberately or not - it's so exclusive to a tiny part of the scene, that while "GSL winner/finalist" may be distinctive... is it that much better than, say, a Dreamhack win? even (as somebody mentioned the winners' GSL stats) an MLG win?)
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Maybe, just maybe, it's a bad idea to start the tournament right before another big event like the MLG columbus happens. Fly to korea, play one match, fly to the USA play the entire MLG, fly back to korea. What's so hard to understand that people don't want to do that?
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On May 22 2011 03:31 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:25 resilve wrote: The problem is Blizzard's really.
There is no justification for cutting off entire segments and sections of the world, when the medium we play the game through can do so much better.
Imagine a world where a player could live in Korea for the prestigous live events, travel to the weekend events like MLG + ESL, and while training still play in the NASL, IPL, Go4SC2 monthly final, Eg masters cup and various clanwars and showmatches.
However, due to the awful connection between KR and RoW you must chose GSL OR any other big events + online cups - and the money is all in the second of those options.
And yet this should not be a choice players have to make. Yeah I forgot Blizzard owns the internets
They do own there absolutely shit net code. Pretty funny that 12 years ago we could play BW against korea with no lag or almost no lag but since the 'massive improvement' Bnet 2.0 we can no longer do that.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On May 22 2011 03:31 wxwx wrote: the WC was like a 2 week stay, so it was like a mini-vacation. With the super tournament being a month, it kind of cuts into your life/comfort and it becomes less of a vacation and more of a bother.
So it boils down to a choice between comfort and competitive drive. Not that foreigners are lacking in the motivation department... I mean an unparalleled desire to be the best and train with the best so great that you are willing to sacrifice many things.
If you stay the whole 1 month time, that means you are pretty deep into the tournament. If you get knocked out early, you go home early. I would like to see what kind of money some of the foreigners are making within a month time. If they are worried about the sacrifices, maybe they shouldn't become progamers as most can make more money with regular occupations.
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'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.'
lol, bring em
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On May 22 2011 03:33 babylon wrote: Fact: Very, very few people want to live in Korea for a month. The language barrier just by itself would suck, but when you add in the cost of making the trip, then Korea pretty much loses all its shine.
Hell, even if I had family in Korea, I wouldn't want to stay there for a month.
Only those who get into the finals will have to stay there for a month, which basically means you get at least $27,000.
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I think it'd be pretty awesome to go to Korea for a month, just for the experience. How many people, even amongst the pros get to say they played in the GSL. It gets you an enormous amount of exposure as a player(and your sponsors/team) as well.
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Well I hope we see more & more foreigners in korea shortly, BTW just fyi in the 2nd paragraph : that "the invitaion of Super Tournament from GomTV came out in rush."
Invitation is spelled wrong, just noticed thought I should point that out. :D
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dont see what the problem is. Foreigners just arnt doin as well as the koreans, if they did better, they would be able to qualify for the league. just seems like some foreigners out there are complaining because there not quite as good as the koreans
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It's very inconvenient and expensive to go live and compete in Korea. I don't see why Chae Jung Won doesn't understand this.
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Everyone always stating what the "opportunity cost" of going to Korea for a month will be. I won't be able to do this and that. wah wah wah...
Instead of looking at it from the perspective of a loser, why not look at what you could potentially gain from going....
~$27,000 for a months worth of work and everything else that comes with winning at the highest level.
If you don't think you can compete and win, of course you're going to continue to make excuses.
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On May 22 2011 03:52 green.at wrote: 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.'
lol, bring em
they are bringing them. they're coming to MLG. but foreigners aren't doing anything to prove they can win in Korea.
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On May 22 2011 04:29 gozima wrote: Everyone always stating what the "opportunity cost" of going to Korea for a month will be. I won't be able to do this and that. wah wah wah...
Instead of looking at it from the perspective of a loser, why not look at what you could potentially gain from going....
~$27,000 for a months worth of work and everything else that comes with winning at the highest level.
If you don't think you can compete and win, of course you're going to continue to make excuses. Even if you are one of the 10 best players in the world, and assuming those 10 people are completely equal, and that all of the players in the top 10 would magically get the perfect brackets that allow them all to finish top 10, that's still only a 10% chance to win that kind of money. It is not an economically responsible thing to do.
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This just shows how even for bystanders, the people of the two side of the world remain blinded by mistrust and disinformation, the information gap are as deep as ever.
How GOM and MLG managed to overcome not just that but both sides' corporation bureaucracy to forge their alliance is beyond me, and frankly, a miracle. I think people doesn't give them enough credit for how major a breakthrough the Leadership Exchange Program really is.
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I think GomTV is really disappointed that most of the foreigners refused to come for the super tournament, and i understand them. They are making huge effort for the foreigners but they still don't want to compete in Korea. In the other side, foreigners have good reasons to not going there, but we need some FOREIGNER PRIDE, i want to see a foreigner win the super tournament so badly...
Maybe one day
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South Korea needs more professional SC2 tournaments other than GSL affiliated ones or more open tournaments.
GOM is hampering the growth of SC2 in Korea in one way. If I was a foreigner SC2 progamer, I would rather opt out just to compete in many tournaments that last only a few days rather than just one tournament lasting a few weeks.
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On May 22 2011 04:33 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 04:29 gozima wrote: Everyone always stating what the "opportunity cost" of going to Korea for a month will be. I won't be able to do this and that. wah wah wah...
Instead of looking at it from the perspective of a loser, why not look at what you could potentially gain from going....
~$27,000 for a months worth of work and everything else that comes with winning at the highest level.
If you don't think you can compete and win, of course you're going to continue to make excuses. Even if you are one of the 10 best players in the world, and assuming those 10 people are completely equal, and that all of the players in the top 10 would magically get the perfect brackets that allow them all to finish top 10, that's still only a 10% chance to win that kind of money. It is not an economically responsible thing to do.
Its not economically responsible to be a progamer, really the only way to make a lot of money from it is to go to korea.
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On May 22 2011 04:48 Pleiades wrote: South Korea needs more professional SC2 tournaments other than GSL affiliated ones or more open tournaments.
GOM is hampering the growth of SC2 in Korea in one way. If I was a foreigner SC2 progamer, I would rather opt out just to compete in many tournaments that last only a few days rather than just one tournament lasting a few weeks.
i agree. hopefully with the latest kespa-blizzard-gretech negotiations we'll see another major korean sc2 tournament from ongamenet or something.
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On May 22 2011 03:38 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:32 udgnim wrote:On May 22 2011 03:28 AlBundy wrote:On May 22 2011 03:25 Haydin wrote: I think the people at Gom need to take a survey of foreign players and get an idea of just how much income some of these regular tournaments, weekend live events, showmatches, and leagues generate for them. What happens if they get a tough draw, and get knocked out first round? That's a lot of money spent for nothing gained.
I'd love to hear some of the reactions of korean players to this news, to get their perspective on all of this. No, you're getting it wrong. Main income should not come from prize money, it should come from a salary paid by the team. BW progamers don't rely on prize money to make a living. SC2 isn't big enough to give everyone salaries. some foreigner teams do provide salaries. no idea how much, but some players do receive a salary. BW isn't even big enough to give all their B teamers a real salary. Fair enough, thanks for the clarification. Still, money should not be an issue, nor the main motivation of gamers when it comes to such a huge tournament. I mean, what about the love of the competition what about the fame and glory? This super tournament is a huge opportunity.
People gotta eat. And that requires money these days. "Love of the competition" and "fame and glory" don't pay the bills and put food on the table. A pro-gamer needs to be responsible about these kinds of things. They have to look objectively at a situation and say, "do the rewards outweigh the risks?"
For participation in the Super Tournament, they do not.
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On May 22 2011 04:48 Pleiades wrote: South Korea needs more professional SC2 tournaments other than GSL affiliated ones or more open tournaments.
GOM is hampering the growth of SC2 in Korea in one way. If I was a foreigner SC2 progamer, I would rather opt out just to compete in many tournaments that last only a few days rather than just one tournament lasting a few weeks.
No they don't.
I don't know why people really are saying that all the fucking time.
BW is mainly only in Proleague. Then OSL and MSL.
SC2 can be only in GSTL and GSL tournaments EASILY.
People forget that sc2 in Korea is getting bigger and bigger, more pros from BW are switching, and more people tune in to watch GSL. GSL leagues can be ENOUGH, because they are LAN tournaments. Not like we have Online tournaments, that are only 2-3 days long.( The only exception is NASL and IPL, but THEY ARE ONLINE not OFFLINE as GSL is.)
I still feel like Korea is the meccha of Starcraft, And just few months of ONLINE tournaments WON'T change my mind that easily, cuz the SPIRIT of esports is still in Korea.
PS. I'm not saying that I'm against MLG, or any other great Tournaments around the world. All I'm saying is that we are looking at Korea right now as THE SECOND CHOICE, where how i feel should be the other way around since we DON'T KNOW how things will go on after the HYPE about SC2.
PSS. And I'm as surprised as GOMTV's Casters. But we will see in few years how it's going to be, I hope all of us will be happy, and won't regret acting like that to Korea.
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On May 22 2011 04:49 425kid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 04:33 coddan wrote:On May 22 2011 04:29 gozima wrote: Everyone always stating what the "opportunity cost" of going to Korea for a month will be. I won't be able to do this and that. wah wah wah...
Instead of looking at it from the perspective of a loser, why not look at what you could potentially gain from going....
~$27,000 for a months worth of work and everything else that comes with winning at the highest level.
If you don't think you can compete and win, of course you're going to continue to make excuses. Even if you are one of the 10 best players in the world, and assuming those 10 people are completely equal, and that all of the players in the top 10 would magically get the perfect brackets that allow them all to finish top 10, that's still only a 10% chance to win that kind of money. It is not an economically responsible thing to do. Its not economically responsible to be a progamer, really the only way to make a lot of money from it is to go to korea. If you are a pro-gamer, it's much safer to be outside Korea. That it's not as stable as other professions isn't an argument to go completely crazy with it.
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On May 22 2011 04:49 425kid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 04:33 coddan wrote:On May 22 2011 04:29 gozima wrote: Everyone always stating what the "opportunity cost" of going to Korea for a month will be. I won't be able to do this and that. wah wah wah...
Instead of looking at it from the perspective of a loser, why not look at what you could potentially gain from going....
~$27,000 for a months worth of work and everything else that comes with winning at the highest level.
If you don't think you can compete and win, of course you're going to continue to make excuses. Even if you are one of the 10 best players in the world, and assuming those 10 people are completely equal, and that all of the players in the top 10 would magically get the perfect brackets that allow them all to finish top 10, that's still only a 10% chance to win that kind of money. It is not an economically responsible thing to do. Its not economically responsible to be a progamer, really the only way to make a lot of money from it is to go to korea.
That is so painfully wrong.
Being a pro on EG in NA is hugely better financially than being on a team in Korea. Unless you actually win or come 2nd in the GSL in Korea you are a poor scrub compared Idra or iNcontrol.
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You know, I don't even see the point of Code A anymore. The skill level in both tournaments is good enough for a 64 player pool. If it was all just one tournament all the time a chance at that big prize pool would be more appealing instead of having to go through the code a and up and down process.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On May 22 2011 04:33 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 04:29 gozima wrote: Everyone always stating what the "opportunity cost" of going to Korea for a month will be. I won't be able to do this and that. wah wah wah...
Instead of looking at it from the perspective of a loser, why not look at what you could potentially gain from going....
~$27,000 for a months worth of work and everything else that comes with winning at the highest level.
If you don't think you can compete and win, of course you're going to continue to make excuses. Even if you are one of the 10 best players in the world, and assuming those 10 people are completely equal, and that all of the players in the top 10 would magically get the perfect brackets that allow them all to finish top 10, that's still only a 10% chance to win that kind of money. It is not an economically responsible thing to do.
3-4th place make almost same as winner of MLG (~$5k) 5-8th place make (~$3k)
That's better than a lot of the top foreigners are making
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On May 22 2011 05:12 Gentso wrote: You know, I don't even see the point of Code A anymore. The skill level in both tournaments is good enough for a 64 player pool. If it was all just one tournament all the time a chance at that big prize pool would be more appealing instead of having to go through the code a and up and down process.
That's the format of the super tournament and still, all the foreigners declined the invitation..So the format is not an argument.
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On May 22 2011 05:06 DirtYLOu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 04:48 Pleiades wrote: South Korea needs more professional SC2 tournaments other than GSL affiliated ones or more open tournaments.
GOM is hampering the growth of SC2 in Korea in one way. If I was a foreigner SC2 progamer, I would rather opt out just to compete in many tournaments that last only a few days rather than just one tournament lasting a few weeks. No they don't. I don't know why people really are saying that all the fucking time. BW is mainly only in Proleague. Then OSL and MSL. SC2 can be only in GSTL and GSL tournaments EASILY. People forget that sc2 in Korea is getting bigger and bigger, more pros from BW are switching, and more people tune in to watch GSL. GSL leagues can be ENOUGH, because they are LAN tournaments. Not like we have Online tournaments, that are only 2-3 days long.( The only exception is NASL and IPL, but THEY ARE ONLINE not OFFLINE as GSL is.) I still feel like Korea is the meccha of Starcraft, And just few months of ONLINE tournaments WON'T change my mind that easily, cuz the SPIRIT of esports is still in Korea. PS. I'm not saying that I'm against MLG, or any other great Tournaments around the world. All I'm saying is that we are looking at Korea right now as THE SECOND CHOICE, where how i feel should be the other way around since we DON'T KNOW how things will go on after the HYPE about SC2. PSS. And I'm as surprised as GOMTV's Casters. But we will see in few years how it's going to be, I hope all of us will be happy, and won't regret acting like that to Korea.
Look id hate to tell you this and pop bubbles people have in their heads, but players and spirit of competiveness dont = meccha of anything.
Money makes things the centre or not. The truth is if there is more money able to float around in the foriegner leagues then it doesnt matter how good the players in korea are or how many people are switching to sc2 in korea. More tournaments whether online or offline equals more money floating around to the progamers/teams which means more interest in being a player which equals a bigger scene.
Hell if this was brood war and koreans still raped foreigners left right and centre but foreigners had this type of sc2 progaming scene then no one would have wanted to go to korea
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On May 22 2011 02:23 Canas wrote: It's really quite simple, why would anyone want to give up their current life for a few months just so they can play in a month long qualifier, that they might not even end up doing well in, when there's plenty of tournaments for them to compete in in NA/EU
I think the main reason is this, it doesn't go any further really.
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On May 22 2011 02:21 DivinO wrote: There is a notable difference between seeds for MLG and a seed for GSL?
Explain, please.
I am pretty sure the seeded players in the GSL are *gasp* better than the MLG seeds. That is what he means.
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On May 22 2011 02:29 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S Are we really saying that Inca is more skillful than say naniwa? Code S is being VERY disappointing for Mr. GOMTV to make such a statement. Also considering that koreans dropped like flies in the Chinese Gigabyte tournament, their bragging rights is down the drain.
I think it's the stigma of MC win every live foreign tournament he's played in, Ace (can't even stay in Code A) obliterating all comers at IEM (Idra, Socke, Sjow, among others) and not dropping a GAME until the finals.
Gigabyte, TSL, NASL and FXOpen are all online tournaments, with attendant lag/pressure differentials compared to LAN tournies. Thus far, every live tournament that top-flight KR players have played in they've absolutely annihilated all comers EXCEPT GSL World Championship Team League (though remember in the Bo3 format, only Dimaga made it remotely far (past the first round?).
We'll see at MLG Columbus just where the KR community is in relation to the foreign scene; Losira/MMA/Bomber/etc. is a pretty good cross-section of the finest from Code S and A.
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sure koreans might be better, but you can't survive on welfare if you expect to fly overseas for a month or so at a time.
there isn't quite enough money to justify it yet. give it time though. everyone loves korea ^.^;;
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On May 22 2011 05:22 Snaphoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:29 Jombozeus wrote:Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S Are we really saying that Inca is more skillful than say naniwa? Code S is being VERY disappointing for Mr. GOMTV to make such a statement. Also considering that koreans dropped like flies in the Chinese Gigabyte tournament, their bragging rights is down the drain. I think it's the stigma of MC win every live foreign tournament he's played in, Ace (can't even stay in Code A) obliterating all comers at IEM (Idra, Socke, Sjow, among others) and not dropping a GAME until the finals. Gigabyte, TSL, NASL and FXOpen are all online tournaments, with attendant lag/pressure differentials compared to LAN tournies. Thus far, every live tournament that top-flight KR players have played in they've absolutely annihilated all comers EXCEPT GSL World Championship Team League (though remember in the Bo3 format, only Dimaga made it remotely far (past the first round?). We'll see at MLG Columbus just where the KR community is in relation to the foreign scene; Losira/MMA/Bomber/etc. is a pretty good cross-section of the finest from Code S and A.
In all fairness we have, what, 2-3 examples to pull from? GSL WC and IEM? That's not a proper sample size to assume anything.
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If you're in Korea, you can't play with your team. If you're in Korea, you can't participate in foreign tournaments (without lag or shelling out massive amounts of money in airline tickets). If you're in Korea, you can't make as much money coaching because of the time difference. If you're in Korea, you can't make as much money streaming because of the time difference. If you're in Korea, you make very little in the way of prize money unless you happen to be in code S and place highly.
This is not even mentioning the different living conditions and culture people have to live in if they moved to Korea.
I wonder how, precisely, he "can't understand." Seems kind of BS to me.
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The prize pool seems very low.
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On May 22 2011 02:35 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams. MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf. Errr, it doesn't clash with MLG. They even made space for players to attend MLG. I'm pretty disappointed in that Foreign players didn't accept the invites, especially since if they do well in this they can become super popular which means more $$$$ for them. If our guys don't move the Koreans will overtake us and it will be BW again
Yeah they made space so you can participate in MLG, but they don't pay for the ticket. The only way it would be economically viable for you to participate in MLG is if you won 1st or 2nd.
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Was GOM willing to pay for travel expenses like they did for the world championships?
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On May 22 2011 05:13 illsick wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 04:33 coddan wrote:On May 22 2011 04:29 gozima wrote: Everyone always stating what the "opportunity cost" of going to Korea for a month will be. I won't be able to do this and that. wah wah wah...
Instead of looking at it from the perspective of a loser, why not look at what you could potentially gain from going....
~$27,000 for a months worth of work and everything else that comes with winning at the highest level.
If you don't think you can compete and win, of course you're going to continue to make excuses. Even if you are one of the 10 best players in the world, and assuming those 10 people are completely equal, and that all of the players in the top 10 would magically get the perfect brackets that allow them all to finish top 10, that's still only a 10% chance to win that kind of money. It is not an economically responsible thing to do. 3-4th place make almost same as winner of MLG (~$5k) 5-8th place make (~$3k) That's better than a lot of the top foreigners are making And there is also the requirement that you make it there every time. Idra only made it once, Jinro twice and haven't been close before or after that. If you go to Korea you are exluding yourself from the smaller prize pools for potentially winning a larger sum in much fiercer competition.
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i think the sentence "Can't understand foreigner's rejection" may appear to have more dramatic effect in english than the way it was originally said in korean. i can only imagine someone using these exact words as if in disbelief, maybe in korean he was simply saying "i dunno why" casually?
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I don't buy this "not understanding" thing. I imagine the head of GomTV can diffentiate between a 5 day trip to Korea with a garauntee for good money versus a month-long stay in Korea with hardly any money garaunteed.
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On May 22 2011 03:27 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:24 maartendq wrote:On May 22 2011 02:18 Lms0 wrote:Well, I think it's mainly the fact that you have to stay there for 1 month that is the problem for foreigner's  Maybe a sign that some of them should get jobs for a few months? That's a pretty dumb thing to say. They have jobs. Professional gaming, maybe you've heard of it. Something is a job the moment you earn a certain and constant sum of money each month (price money != monthly pay). If you don't earn money by playing a video game all day, you're just an amateur.
To be honest, if somebody really considers playing video games professionally while not earning at LEAST $/€1500 a month he/she should set his/her priorities straight.
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On May 22 2011 05:06 DirtYLOu wrote: No they don't.
I don't know why people really are saying that all the fucking time.
BW is mainly only in Proleague. Then OSL and MSL.
SC2 can be only in GSTL and GSL tournaments EASILY.
People forget that sc2 in Korea is getting bigger and bigger, more pros from BW are switching, and more people tune in to watch GSL. GSL leagues can be ENOUGH, because they are LAN tournaments. Not like we have Online tournaments, that are only 2-3 days long.( The only exception is NASL and IPL, but THEY ARE ONLINE not OFFLINE as GSL is.)
I still feel like Korea is the meccha of Starcraft, And just few months of ONLINE tournaments WON'T change my mind that easily, cuz the SPIRIT of esports is still in Korea.
PS. I'm not saying that I'm against MLG, or any other great Tournaments around the world. All I'm saying is that we are looking at Korea right now as THE SECOND CHOICE, where how i feel should be the other way around since we DON'T KNOW how things will go on after the HYPE about SC2.
PSS. And I'm as surprised as GOMTV's Casters. But we will see in few years how it's going to be, I hope all of us will be happy, and won't regret acting like that to Korea.
The SC2 situation is different from BW, so don't compare the two like that. Korea may of had a lead on the gaming culture, but it now has more of a competition, especially in Starcraft 2.
If GOM wants to attract foreigners, then they need way more than what they are currently offering. Seeds/spots to their tournaments are nice. However, they are not nice enough to warrant the investment going into just one or two tournaments at most, when they can invest somewhere else for more opportunities.
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Take GSL with it's 150,000 prize pool
Split it into 3 big 50,000 tourneys that are placed every 2 weeks or so.
Bam, foreigners are not interested, because if they lose they don't have to wait a month to play again -_-
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On May 22 2011 05:02 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:38 AlBundy wrote:On May 22 2011 03:32 udgnim wrote:On May 22 2011 03:28 AlBundy wrote:On May 22 2011 03:25 Haydin wrote: I think the people at Gom need to take a survey of foreign players and get an idea of just how much income some of these regular tournaments, weekend live events, showmatches, and leagues generate for them. What happens if they get a tough draw, and get knocked out first round? That's a lot of money spent for nothing gained.
I'd love to hear some of the reactions of korean players to this news, to get their perspective on all of this. No, you're getting it wrong. Main income should not come from prize money, it should come from a salary paid by the team. BW progamers don't rely on prize money to make a living. SC2 isn't big enough to give everyone salaries. some foreigner teams do provide salaries. no idea how much, but some players do receive a salary. BW isn't even big enough to give all their B teamers a real salary. Fair enough, thanks for the clarification. Still, money should not be an issue, nor the main motivation of gamers when it comes to such a huge tournament. I mean, what about the love of the competition what about the fame and glory? This super tournament is a huge opportunity. People gotta eat. And that requires money these days. "Love of the competition" and "fame and glory" don't pay the bills and put food on the table.
That's not entirely true, though.
Look at Tyler for example - there are probably SC2 players I've never even heard of with better results than him in the last year, yet even to this day he has a cult following, is on one of the better foreign teams and is probably paid to play more than those other players who have done better than him, plus he has a personal sponsorship on the side.
A lot of it has to do with him getting to the Courage finals a few years ago in a different game and beating Idra and Mondragon in TSL2 (more so than actually winning that TSL), as well as his exposure in the community. It propelled him to Legend status, and no matter how poorly he does in SC2, he'll always have a future in e-sports.
Compare that to a bunch of players (some even very well known) who very successfully compete in online tournaments and win a decent amount of prize money, but if their ID doesn't show up in the medal lists for a couple of months, everyone forgets they exist (including the sponsors). Is their future in e-sports guaranteed? I wouldn't be so sure. Especially in Starcraft 2, as there's already an oversaturation of online and small tournament players, and players who are (or have genuine potential to be) top progamers will just end up drowning in that ocean.
It's very hard for progamers to live just on prize money - exposure and public recognition is very important for their future. Yet a lot of players throw away the chance to compete in the best SC2 tournament to date just like that - a chance that a lot of foreigners in BW would have killed for by the way - because they don't want to dedicate a month or two (with preparation) and try to make their mark. It's either lack of ambition or lack of skill, however you look at it.
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On May 22 2011 05:41 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:27 coddan wrote:On May 22 2011 03:24 maartendq wrote:On May 22 2011 02:18 Lms0 wrote:Well, I think it's mainly the fact that you have to stay there for 1 month that is the problem for foreigner's  Maybe a sign that some of them should get jobs for a few months? That's a pretty dumb thing to say. They have jobs. Professional gaming, maybe you've heard of it. Something is a job the moment you earn a certain and constant sum of money each month (price money != monthly pay). If you don't earn money by playing a video game all day, you're just an amateur. To be honest, if somebody really considers playing video games professionally while not earning at LEAST $/€1500 a month he/she should set his/her priorities straight. Haha, I didn't know you had that kind of insight into team salaries, stream or coaching revenue and sponsorships! Don't I look silly now.
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On May 22 2011 05:50 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 05:41 maartendq wrote:On May 22 2011 03:27 coddan wrote:On May 22 2011 03:24 maartendq wrote:On May 22 2011 02:18 Lms0 wrote:Well, I think it's mainly the fact that you have to stay there for 1 month that is the problem for foreigner's  Maybe a sign that some of them should get jobs for a few months? That's a pretty dumb thing to say. They have jobs. Professional gaming, maybe you've heard of it. Something is a job the moment you earn a certain and constant sum of money each month (price money != monthly pay). If you don't earn money by playing a video game all day, you're just an amateur. To be honest, if somebody really considers playing video games professionally while not earning at LEAST $/€1500 a month he/she should set his/her priorities straight. Haha, I didn't know you had that kind of insight into team salaries, stream or coaching revenue and sponsorships! Don't I look silly now. I don't know, but I'm quite sure that I earn a lot more than most SC2 pro-gamers while actually NOT having to "work" 10 hours a day for it.
AFAIK, most SC2 teams don't have salaries, let alone sponsorships by companies that actually matter (talking about companies like Samsung here, not about Razer and TLAF) and can put aside $/€50k each month to keep a pro-team running (food, computers, house rent, electricity and gas bills, representation costs, flights, salaries etc.).
It doesn't take a genius to realize that.
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I don't want mediocre foreigners to compete GSL.. no foreigners in GSL is perfectly fine for me if THEY AREN'T GOOD AS GOOD AS MVP,BOMBER.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Just because Korea is the "mecca" of SC1 doesn't make it the "mecca" of SC2. People can't drop their lives for a month for the economic circumstances of the super tournament.
Players are likely worried about playing an opponent who executes some new, well refined all-in in the early rounds.
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On May 22 2011 05:57 namedplayer wrote: I don't want mediocre foreigners to compete GSL.. no foreigners in GSL is perfectly fine for me if THEY AREN'T GOOD AS GOOD AS MVP,BOMBER.
You realize that MVP lost to a foreigner in the Gom World Team league thing right?
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To throw in some considerations: many of the eastern european players do quite well with the prize money from online tournaments. While 100€ does not seem much to a German or French, to them it's easily an average two week's pay. That means they can get by with 2 small tournament wins or some good finishes, maybe even just some coaching and streaming revenue but at the same time have huge problems paying for intercontinental flights when they're not with a team based in one of the wealthier countries. It's not at all economical for them to travel to Korea.
The same fact means that in the wealthier countries like Germany nearly nobody plays full time. Some pause their studies for a year or something but that's about it, there's nearly nobody who plays full time. Easily for two considerations: one, you don't get the best CV from pro gaming and two, it just doesn't pay nearly as well as working. Considering the average household has something like 2500€ a month, who's there to blame them. And we have to remember, it's not your standard retard to play at highest levels but the intelligent and dedicated... I believe we have exactly two full time players in the german SC2 scene, that would be Cloud (who's from Italy) and Xlord if he were to actually delay his studies which isn't even clear yet. TLO of course is in Sweden right now. Socke, Hasuobs, Darkforce, Mondragon...they all study full time. So the money alone is not really the big consideration, which in turn means that giving up studies or job to go to Korea for over a month is probably not in their interest. Would be cool, but not feasible. What we're left with is a mainly amateur scene in some countries and a professional but limited scene in others with nobody really wanting to commit to going to Korea. It's a cool thing, it can be a dream, it's nothing for the boring, realistically thinking people.
My personal conclusion is that we need maybe one or two big events a year to bring the communities together and apart from that mainly stuff like league play and smaller local tournaments. That would also help the korean scene where everybody lower than Code S is kinda screwed. There is a reason why it works this way in football.
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On May 22 2011 03:50 illsick wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:31 wxwx wrote: the WC was like a 2 week stay, so it was like a mini-vacation. With the super tournament being a month, it kind of cuts into your life/comfort and it becomes less of a vacation and more of a bother.
So it boils down to a choice between comfort and competitive drive. Not that foreigners are lacking in the motivation department... I mean an unparalleled desire to be the best and train with the best so great that you are willing to sacrifice many things. If you stay the whole 1 month time, that means you are pretty deep into the tournament. If you get knocked out early, you go home early. I would like to see what kind of money some of the foreigners are making within a month time. If they are worried about the sacrifices, maybe they shouldn't become progamers as most can make more money with regular occupations.
I dont think you know how expensive it can be to book a flight home on short notice.
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On May 22 2011 05:59 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 05:57 namedplayer wrote: I don't want mediocre foreigners to compete GSL.. no foreigners in GSL is perfectly fine for me if THEY AREN'T GOOD AS GOOD AS MVP,BOMBER.
You realize that MVP lost to a foreigner in the Gom World Team league thing right?
no I don't. what was that? BO1?
edit: Ah i see, you were talking about Dimaga vs mvp.. -_-; anyway mvp interviewed that he used old build(old patch) build in order to hide his new build for real tournament. and anyone can take BO1.
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On May 22 2011 06:02 namedplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 05:59 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On May 22 2011 05:57 namedplayer wrote: I don't want mediocre foreigners to compete GSL.. no foreigners in GSL is perfectly fine for me if THEY AREN'T GOOD AS GOOD AS MVP,BOMBER.
You realize that MVP lost to a foreigner in the Gom World Team league thing right? no I don't. what was that? BO1?
Please just give up now and save this thread from more inane bullshit where one person thinks some player is better than another player and blah blah blah, NO ONE GIVES A FLYING SHIT ABOUT YOUR OR MY OPINION ON THE RELATIVE SKILL OF PLAYERS.
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On May 22 2011 05:59 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 05:57 namedplayer wrote: I don't want mediocre foreigners to compete GSL.. no foreigners in GSL is perfectly fine for me if THEY AREN'T GOOD AS GOOD AS MVP,BOMBER.
You realize that MVP lost to a foreigner in the Gom World Team league thing right?
You realize that the Gom World Team League had no prize pool right? The result of the 1v1 format speak for itself, where money was actually involved.
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On May 22 2011 05:59 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 05:57 namedplayer wrote: I don't want mediocre foreigners to compete GSL.. no foreigners in GSL is perfectly fine for me if THEY AREN'T GOOD AS GOOD AS MVP,BOMBER.
You realize that MVP lost to a foreigner in the Gom World Team league thing right?
Yet he won the part of the tournament that mattered/wasn't just for fun. Even MC said he didn't try his best in the team match.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On May 22 2011 05:27 Gheed wrote: If you're in Korea, you can't play with your team.
Sen does it (although he's from taiwan but same concept), or you can be like liquid and have other players from same team to go. What is it like ~6hr time difference for EU/KR same difference with NA/EU; there are some teams with cross region team members eg. select/dignitas and demuslim/EG.
On May 22 2011 05:27 Gheed wrote: If you're in Korea, you can't participate in foreign tournaments (without lag or shelling out massive amounts of money in airline tickets).
Jinro, Huk, MC can do it. Lots of Korean players are doing well in NASL. There's only like 1 NA tournament in MLG and europeans are flying out there to participate for first place $5k prize pot. Like the same price of airline tickets to go to Korea.
On May 22 2011 05:27 Gheed wrote: If you're in Korea, you can't make as much money streaming because of the time difference.
Huk and Sen are some of the more popular streams
On May 22 2011 05:27 Gheed wrote: If you're in Korea, you make very little in the way of prize money unless you happen to be in code S and place highly.
isn't that like any other tournament? The high placers get the $$$
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Korea's entire SC2 tourney scene is focused around the GSL, so the time in which they were notified is fine. People outside Korea have commitments to their families, jobs, clans and other tournament organizers.
Believe it or not, the world doesn't revolve around fucking Korea, I hope they keep making asses of themselves and people just keep shunning the GSL. E-sports is worldwide now bitches, adapt or GTFO.
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On May 22 2011 05:59 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 05:57 namedplayer wrote: I don't want mediocre foreigners to compete GSL.. no foreigners in GSL is perfectly fine for me if THEY AREN'T GOOD AS GOOD AS MVP,BOMBER.
You realize that MVP lost to a foreigner in the Gom World Team league thing right?
you realize that it was just one game right? and did you forget he won the championships a week later? lol
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On May 22 2011 02:20 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:18 Lms0 wrote:Well, I think it's mainly the fact that you have to stay there for 1 month that is the problem for foreigner's  Yup and the time difference + lag stops them playing in other tourneys that they might already have agreed to, such as clan wars or ESL Pro series etc. If the lag issues could be solved, it might lead to more foreigners deciding they can be in korea and still earn money outside of the GSL Could you imagine if Jinro and HuK could play in online tourneys from korea without lag.... that would encourage others to try it out
No dude, LAG is not a fucking problem anymore. Holy shit. If lag is a problem, explain why at least 4 of the koreans have 4 wins in the NASL, and all currently rank in the top 20? There are players whoare in the US who have no wins, so whats their excuse? not enough lag? We've already seen this discussion, and people have said it's easy to get use to the latency.
However, I do agree that having to stay for a month kind of screws things for you for awhile. Also, being in a different time zone doesn't help because it's hard to play games at your best when you're too damn tired. But stop QQing about lag, because that's not the fucking problem.
EDIT: When I say lag isn't a problem anymore, I mean... it still exists, but it;s not making the game unplayable from continent to continent.
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I'm gonna go bold here and label this whole ordeal as travel anxiety. You can still compete in online cups, you can still attend MLG, and you can get used to the lag if you practice enough.
Unless you have family responsibilities it's really down to comfort. As in, adjusting a to a new house, new friends, and playing with a bit of lag.
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The tournament location is the biggest problem. It's in Korea, it's like a month long, it cost lots of money to live in Seoul for that one month. Unless you come out on the semi-finals, I can't really see any foreigners being able to to prevent their wallets from being busted. Maybe it would not be so bad if they were given a stay at the GSL professional house...still those travel costs.
I think most of these guys want to stay close to home where other tournaments are being held (which would make the location to carry on regular code A/S tournaments a pain). Now if those guys can be in two places at once this would work out a lot better. OSL and MSL never had this problem because both tournaments are hosted in the same city (thus eliminating that distance problem).
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Canada13389 Posts
On May 22 2011 06:20 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 05:59 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On May 22 2011 05:57 namedplayer wrote: I don't want mediocre foreigners to compete GSL.. no foreigners in GSL is perfectly fine for me if THEY AREN'T GOOD AS GOOD AS MVP,BOMBER.
You realize that MVP lost to a foreigner in the Gom World Team league thing right? you realize that it was just one game right? and did you forget he won the championships a week later? lol
But most people in the GSL currently coda A or Code S arent as good as MVP, bomber or even DongRaeGu. DRG isn't even in the GSL 1v1 anyway and his teammates in the GSL need to perform well enough to get slayers in a GSTL for us to even watch him play.
Some foreigners are better than many of the Koreans in the GSL but its not like they will necessarily go to Korea since they can make money from home too. Its not like BW where you couldnt really make any money without going to Korea and any salary or money you did make paled in comparison to a similarly skilled korean player.
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On May 22 2011 06:05 leakingpear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 06:02 namedplayer wrote:On May 22 2011 05:59 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On May 22 2011 05:57 namedplayer wrote: I don't want mediocre foreigners to compete GSL.. no foreigners in GSL is perfectly fine for me if THEY AREN'T GOOD AS GOOD AS MVP,BOMBER.
You realize that MVP lost to a foreigner in the Gom World Team league thing right? no I don't. what was that? BO1? Please just give up now and save this thread from more inane bullshit where one person thinks some player is better than another player and blah blah blah, NO ONE GIVES A FLYING SHIT ABOUT YOUR OR MY OPINION ON THE RELATIVE SKILL OF PLAYERS.
? I mean it. I want BEAST foreigner to compete GSL, not a bunch of mediocre.
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GSL may not offer much prize money, but the status that comes along with it is just ridiculous.
1. Look at gosucoaching, Idra is the only one offered the coaching rate at $150 and increased it to $300 because he wanted more time to practice.
2. Remember Jinro in first two GSL? He is pretty much nobody. Reaching to top 4 GSL and did well on the next one by beating oGs.MC, suddenly he become a national gaming hero that featured on a newspaper.
Instead of thinking blindly about money, pro-gamer should put another thought about baller-status by attending GSL.
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On May 22 2011 06:18 Misanthrope wrote: Believe it or not, the world doesn't revolve around fucking Korea, I hope they keep making asses of themselves and people just keep shunning the GSL. E-sports is worldwide now bitches, adapt or GTFO.
Explain to me how "fucking Korea" is making asses out of themselves.
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status doesn't put food in their plates or cash in their wallets. face it, this is still a niche scene with limited sponsorship.
besides, it's not like doing well in foreign tournaments doesn't give similar amounts of prestige.
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On May 22 2011 06:28 namedplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 06:05 leakingpear wrote:On May 22 2011 06:02 namedplayer wrote:On May 22 2011 05:59 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On May 22 2011 05:57 namedplayer wrote: I don't want mediocre foreigners to compete GSL.. no foreigners in GSL is perfectly fine for me if THEY AREN'T GOOD AS GOOD AS MVP,BOMBER.
You realize that MVP lost to a foreigner in the Gom World Team league thing right? no I don't. what was that? BO1? Please just give up now and save this thread from more inane bullshit where one person thinks some player is better than another player and blah blah blah, NO ONE GIVES A FLYING SHIT ABOUT YOUR OR MY OPINION ON THE RELATIVE SKILL OF PLAYERS. ? I mean it. I want BEAST foreigner to compete GSL, not a bunch of mediocre.
yup. The only foreigners I want to see in the GSL and actually have a chance are:
Nani, Idra, T-Zain, Jinro, Select, Dimaga, and Sen. The rest would find it hard to stand a chance even if they got 1st place in MLG.
IMO. Feel free to add or take away.
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I think GSL will have to make short events like MLG or Dreamhack do if they want to get alot of foreigners to go there, also tell the players long before the tournaments happen.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On May 22 2011 05:34 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 05:13 illsick wrote:On May 22 2011 04:33 coddan wrote:On May 22 2011 04:29 gozima wrote: Everyone always stating what the "opportunity cost" of going to Korea for a month will be. I won't be able to do this and that. wah wah wah...
Instead of looking at it from the perspective of a loser, why not look at what you could potentially gain from going....
~$27,000 for a months worth of work and everything else that comes with winning at the highest level.
If you don't think you can compete and win, of course you're going to continue to make excuses. Even if you are one of the 10 best players in the world, and assuming those 10 people are completely equal, and that all of the players in the top 10 would magically get the perfect brackets that allow them all to finish top 10, that's still only a 10% chance to win that kind of money. It is not an economically responsible thing to do. 3-4th place make almost same as winner of MLG (~$5k) 5-8th place make (~$3k) That's better than a lot of the top foreigners are making And there is also the requirement that you make it there every time. Idra only made it once, Jinro twice and haven't been close before or after that. If you go to Korea you are exluding yourself from the smaller prize pools for potentially winning a larger sum in much fiercer competition.
I'm going by your example of top 10 best players in the world scenario... that I quoted from you
If you are top 10, then you will either exceed or break even in what you will make outside of Korea. Looking statistically through a whole year, economically speaking it is even higher than 10%; maybe even 20% as 2nd place is $18-19k prize (that's a good chunk of money to make it worthwhile). Then factor in that every other month is a GSL season ontop of in between seasons there can be a WC or Super Tournament; so your odds are even better than your original 10% of making it worthwhile if you are top 10 in the world (and if you magically get 'perfect' brackets).
So it comes down to the competition being fiercer. And people are mad when he said that Code S and MLG are not too comparable. Europeans are sending people to MLG for for prize of $5k and not sending people to the Super Tournament. It's only a month long tournament if you make it to the very end but by then it's already worthwhile/exceeding that month 'sacrifice'. Obviously if you are knocked out early it's not worth it; just like if you are knocked out of MLG early. But it's not a month 'sacrifice' to be knocked out early of the Super Tournament.
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On May 22 2011 06:30 Sein wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 06:18 Misanthrope wrote: Believe it or not, the world doesn't revolve around fucking Korea, I hope they keep making asses of themselves and people just keep shunning the GSL. E-sports is worldwide now bitches, adapt or GTFO. Explain to me how "fucking Korea" is making asses out of themselves.
lol he probably missed all seasons of the GSTL
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Can imagine that the koreans are sad that the foreigners actually can have a proscene without them. THey dont have to feel insulted because they are unwillingly to leave their family, friends and lovers at home while they go pro in a far away country. Especially considering the risk in code S, only Jinro who also won MLG at that time was able to go into the Code S semifinals as the only foreigner, idra managed the ro16 iirc (maybe ro8, can only remember he was knocked out by Jinro at that time).
Might be a tough pill for koreasn to swallow that the foreigners don't feel the prestige of being in korea, especially when they have to afford the plane ticket. And also include everything in Xeris' post basically, many of the koreans would also have a better faring in money and success (with internal fans too who'd recognize them on street) if the koreans tried to setup a progaming house in Sweden, germany or the US for example then they would probally be able to understand what the foreigners would have to go through. Probally not even that since many foreigners would love the opportunity to practice with famous koreans while foreigners in korea would not be as "exotic" as so to say. THats just my view on it anyways
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On May 22 2011 06:32 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 06:28 namedplayer wrote:On May 22 2011 06:05 leakingpear wrote:On May 22 2011 06:02 namedplayer wrote:On May 22 2011 05:59 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On May 22 2011 05:57 namedplayer wrote: I don't want mediocre foreigners to compete GSL.. no foreigners in GSL is perfectly fine for me if THEY AREN'T GOOD AS GOOD AS MVP,BOMBER.
You realize that MVP lost to a foreigner in the Gom World Team league thing right? no I don't. what was that? BO1? Please just give up now and save this thread from more inane bullshit where one person thinks some player is better than another player and blah blah blah, NO ONE GIVES A FLYING SHIT ABOUT YOUR OR MY OPINION ON THE RELATIVE SKILL OF PLAYERS. ? I mean it. I want BEAST foreigner to compete GSL, not a bunch of mediocre. yup. The only foreigners I want to see in the GSL and actually have a chance are: Nani, Idra, T-Zain, Jinro, Select, Dimaga, and Sen. The rest would find it hard to stand a chance even if they got 1st place in MLG. IMO. Feel free to add or take away.
I would add Morrow to the list, he is a hard worker and very talented.
Edit : Oh and Huk already prove himself by being in code S and by showing his dedication, i respect a lot players who are true competitor like him and want to compete with the best.
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If there was something else to play in korea maybe that would not be so bad but atm there is noting else other than the GSL.
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I just think its awesome that Gom is responding to a prominent foreigner community member's post on team liquid! It might not have been very productive in this case but its clear they are paying attention.
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I'd imagine if there was a BW Chaosplayer level of lag from korea, then a lot of foreigners would take the opportunity to go to korea.
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On May 22 2011 06:40 Dreadwolf wrote: If there was something else to play in korea maybe that would not be so bad but atm there is noting else other than the GSL.
Yeah I don´t understand why Blizzard gave GOM a monopoly on SC2 tournaments over there, if SC2 is going to get more popular then BW surely they need many tournaments? :/
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On May 22 2011 06:45 Gurgl wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 06:40 Dreadwolf wrote: If there was something else to play in korea maybe that would not be so bad but atm there is noting else other than the GSL. Yeah I don´t understand why Blizzard gave GOM a monopoly on SC2 tournaments over there, if SC2 is going to get more popular then BW surely they need many tournaments? :/ well at the time relationship between kespa and blizzard wasnt the greatest so blizzard had nobody except gom to negotiate sc2 with else sc2 in korea would have died out but in 2 years when the contract ends you are guaranteed more tournament by ogn or mbc game
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its kind of stupid that people don't want to go to korea. I mean how likely is it for a foreigner to win the tournaments at home? It's not like they're winning every tournament. I rather go to korea and make some money just for being in the tournament instead of going to MLG and getting knocked out in the first round earning no money, and actually losing money because of the flight and hotel expenses.
They are giving you a place to live in korea seriously... You can make 100 bucks in a day in a foreign online tournament... so you can in Code A also in the first day.
People shouldn't be going into tournaments without the attitude of winning. Foreigners go into foreign tournaments thinking they can win it, but they don't share that same attitude going into the GSL, because they know they can't win it.
Maybe players can fill in for Code A and commentate for it to make some money in Korea to help with their financial problems.
I encourage all foreign players to play in Korea, and do it for the experience, I mean Sen was living in IM when he qualified for GSL open 3 and probably got a lot of value out of it.
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Starcraft 2 has outgrown the e-sports scene in Korea, evident in the growing number of big money tournaments internationally and only the one Code S prize pot being worth it.
The ironic thing to me is how the GSL was originally an open tournament with a great mystique of this tournament where you could work your butt off, travel to Korea, make it through grueling qualifiers and come out 80,000 dollars richer in a month. Now there is a "KESPA"-like setup with qualifiers, then Code A, then up and down, then Code S group play (now MSL style).
My own opinion, Blizzard reserves servers for competitive online play for LAN latency through a tunneling router of sorts, and we get cool holograms of the players as they fight each other, possibly host the finals in a major city each time, Seoul, then Stockholm, Los Angeles etc.
edited for horrid spelling.
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I hope PlayXP or some other Korean site translates the comments in this thread, there's some great trolling here, and after all we get translations for their trolling. 
On May 22 2011 06:56 LloydRays wrote: Starcraft 2 has outgrown the e-sports scene in Korea, evident in the growing number of big money tournaments internationally and only the one Code S prize pot being worth it. In terms of size, yes perhaps the international scene has outgrown the Korean. However, in terms of professionalism Korea is still dominant.
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On May 22 2011 07:00 Incanus wrote:I hope PlayXP or some other Korean site translates the comments in this thread, there's some great trolling here, and after all we get translations for their trolling.  Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 06:56 LloydRays wrote: Starcraft 2 has outgrown the e-sports scene in Korea, evident in the growing number of big money tournaments internationally and only the one Code S prize pot being worth it. In terms of size, yes perhaps the international scene has outgrown the Korean. However, in terms of professionalism Korea is still dominant.
WTF is professionalism and why does Korea dominate it?
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On May 22 2011 06:28 Prime`Rib wrote: GSL may not offer much prize money, but the status that comes along with it is just ridiculous.
1. Look at gosucoaching, Idra is the only one offered the coaching rate at $150 and increased it to $300 because he wanted more time to practice.
2. Remember Jinro in first two GSL? He is pretty much nobody. Reaching to top 4 GSL and did well on the next one by beating oGs.MC, suddenly he become a national gaming hero that featured on a newspaper.
Instead of thinking blindly about money, pro-gamer should put another thought about baller-status by attending GSL. Yeah this is true. GSL does make foreigners quite a bit more famous.
I was in fact a bit disappointed that Jinro was so obscure before attending GSL. I knew he was good and I'm glad more people recognize that now.
In terms of size, yes perhaps the international scene has outgrown the Korean. However, in terms of professionalism Korea is still dominant. Yeah. Not only do their whole teams live and practice together all day, 6 days a week, but they grew up with StarCraft. It is taken extremely seriously over there. If say for example what's seen in Korea (SC being a professional sport and many Korean teams practicing with each other in person all day) was the same in say, Germany, I have no doubt that the teams from this hypothetical German league would be overwhelmingly skilled as well.
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I think another reason is that the foreign pros want to continue the growth of the non korean scene. If all the top tier players just go to Korea to play in the GSL, then whats that saying about the tournaments elsewhere? Does that mean they are garbage? Then sponsors will stop sponsoring tournaments with large prize pools because everyone will be watching the GSL, and the non-korean tournaments will not be prestigious. So concentrating on non-korean tournaments will continue the growth of the non-korean. Along with the fact that there are tons more tournaments outside of korea, I dont see any compelling reason to go to Korea right now.
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It's sad to see people getting emo about some comments that were most likely poorly translated and taken out of context.
The fact is that gomtv want foreigners to participate in the gsl.
now instead of you b.itches moaning about it, give them big props since they are actually trying to give foreigners opportunities to make it in korea.
and sure they prolly could stay in the foreigner houses in korea.
User was warned for this post
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On May 22 2011 06:56 skrzmark wrote: its kind of stupid that people don't want to go to korea. I mean how likely is it for a foreigner to win the tournaments at home? It's not like they're winning every tournament. I rather go to korea and make some money just for being in the tournament instead of going to MLG and getting knocked out in the first round earning no money, and actually losing money because of the flight and hotel expenses.
They are giving you a place to live in korea seriously... You can make 100 bucks in a day in a foreign online tournament... so you can in Code A also in the first day.
People shouldn't be going into tournaments without the attitude of winning. Foreigners go into foreign tournaments thinking they can win it, but they don't share that same attitude going into the GSL, because they know they can't win it.
Maybe players can fill in for Code A and commentate for it to make some money in Korea to help with their financial problems.
I encourage all foreign players to play in Korea, and do it for the experience, I mean Sen was living in IM when he qualified for GSL open 3 and probably got a lot of value out of it. Your are only thinking about the tournaments and the money, like many other people in this thread. The fact of the matter is that to go to Korea and play, one would have to uproot his entire life and leave everything behind him and go to a country where they barely understand your language. It is a tough decision, and the ST is not a simple weekend tournament where you can simply go home once it's over. Pro gamers are PEOPLE for christs sake! So yeah, I totally agree. It would be the best decision to leave friends and wife/girlfriend behind, try to adapt to the Korean culture, get set up in a training house, while all the same leaving every competition they might be in behind, to play in the secondbest league in a tournament that is positively hostile towards any change in the status quo. Sounds effin brilliant to me.
And if the GSL really IS the premiere SC2 tournament, and is going to be that for a long time, then I'll go watch the MSL thank you very much. I won't argue that koreans are better in THAT tournament. As for anything SC2 however...
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On May 22 2011 07:12 DerNebel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 06:56 skrzmark wrote: its kind of stupid that people don't want to go to korea. I mean how likely is it for a foreigner to win the tournaments at home? It's not like they're winning every tournament. I rather go to korea and make some money just for being in the tournament instead of going to MLG and getting knocked out in the first round earning no money, and actually losing money because of the flight and hotel expenses.
They are giving you a place to live in korea seriously... You can make 100 bucks in a day in a foreign online tournament... so you can in Code A also in the first day.
People shouldn't be going into tournaments without the attitude of winning. Foreigners go into foreign tournaments thinking they can win it, but they don't share that same attitude going into the GSL, because they know they can't win it.
Maybe players can fill in for Code A and commentate for it to make some money in Korea to help with their financial problems.
I encourage all foreign players to play in Korea, and do it for the experience, I mean Sen was living in IM when he qualified for GSL open 3 and probably got a lot of value out of it. Your are only thinking about the tournaments and the money, like many other people in this thread. The fact of the matter is that to go to Korea and play, one would have to uproot his entire life and leave everything behind him and go to a country where they barely understand your language. It is a tough decision, and the ST is not a simple weekend tournament where you can simply go home once it's over. Pro gamers are PEOPLE for christs sake! So yeah, I totally agree. It would be the best decision to leave friends and wife/girlfriend behind, try to adapt to the Korean culture, get set up in a training house, while all the same leaving every competition they might be in behind, to play in the secondbest league in a tournament that is positively hostile towards any change in the status quo. Sounds effin brilliant to me. And if the GSL really IS the premiere SC2 tournament, and is going to be that for a long time, then I'll go watch the MSL thank you very much. I won't argue that koreans are better in THAT tournament. As for anything SC2 however...
You have to leave all that stuff behind if you want to pursue your career, so many people move because of work y'know.
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Said it before and I'll say it again: In Sc2 by and large, Korea is just another country. Yes Korea obviously has some stand outs, but...give me a break..900 bucks for Ro32..in a 1 month long tournament. So I can get back SOME of the plane flight roundtrip..not to mention whatever it would cost for lodging for a month..and food..etc. So Maybe by Ro16 I can maybe break even and by Ro8 I'll make a buck. That leaves you with 8 players foreign and domestic that could win on any given day..sounds brilliant.
Short sightedness from gom and this super natural belief of Korea. Like I said I won't deny Korea has some fantastic players, but the god aura just isn't there anymore, not in this game. Frankly I don't even watch GSL anymore, I watch GSTL some, but the hours suck.
This is another case of a company trying to be ambitious, companies/tournaments need to focus on their respective regions and relax with the global thing. How many sports are actually global? Barely any.
Also, swap Korea and "everywhere else" Koreans wouldn't do it either, its not because they think they can't win, its because there are far more opportunities in more frequent amounts outside of Korea. Just a bitter guy from gom basing it off of skill and being so shortsighted to not include any other possibilities.
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On May 22 2011 07:16 skrzmark wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 07:12 DerNebel wrote:On May 22 2011 06:56 skrzmark wrote: its kind of stupid that people don't want to go to korea. I mean how likely is it for a foreigner to win the tournaments at home? It's not like they're winning every tournament. I rather go to korea and make some money just for being in the tournament instead of going to MLG and getting knocked out in the first round earning no money, and actually losing money because of the flight and hotel expenses.
They are giving you a place to live in korea seriously... You can make 100 bucks in a day in a foreign online tournament... so you can in Code A also in the first day.
People shouldn't be going into tournaments without the attitude of winning. Foreigners go into foreign tournaments thinking they can win it, but they don't share that same attitude going into the GSL, because they know they can't win it.
Maybe players can fill in for Code A and commentate for it to make some money in Korea to help with their financial problems.
I encourage all foreign players to play in Korea, and do it for the experience, I mean Sen was living in IM when he qualified for GSL open 3 and probably got a lot of value out of it. Your are only thinking about the tournaments and the money, like many other people in this thread. The fact of the matter is that to go to Korea and play, one would have to uproot his entire life and leave everything behind him and go to a country where they barely understand your language. It is a tough decision, and the ST is not a simple weekend tournament where you can simply go home once it's over. Pro gamers are PEOPLE for christs sake! So yeah, I totally agree. It would be the best decision to leave friends and wife/girlfriend behind, try to adapt to the Korean culture, get set up in a training house, while all the same leaving every competition they might be in behind, to play in the secondbest league in a tournament that is positively hostile towards any change in the status quo. Sounds effin brilliant to me. And if the GSL really IS the premiere SC2 tournament, and is going to be that for a long time, then I'll go watch the MSL thank you very much. I won't argue that koreans are better in THAT tournament. As for anything SC2 however... You have to leave all that stuff behind if you want to pursue your career, so many people move because of work y'know.
What does this even mean? Some people do it so everyone should do it too?
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A one month long qualify tournament with such a small prize pool is why code A will be heavily rejected by high placing MLG players with exceptions of players like Naaniwa who have said they would like to go. Also, it is very difficult to get a team of players to korea on short notice, i think perhaps with world championship they had better luck getting response from sponsors quickly?
regardless, the foreigners aren't going, not much to be done now
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Lol @ this thread. Korea>>>>>>>foreign scene ainec. If there was a foreigner on the level of nestea, mc, mvp, bomber etc, then they would go to korea for the chance to win 80k a month. MC and Nestea have made over 200k just from gsl since september. Even guys like Thewind and anypro have made more in prize money than every foreigner who hasnt gone to korea
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On May 22 2011 07:05 Bear4188 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 07:00 Incanus wrote:I hope PlayXP or some other Korean site translates the comments in this thread, there's some great trolling here, and after all we get translations for their trolling.  On May 22 2011 06:56 LloydRays wrote: Starcraft 2 has outgrown the e-sports scene in Korea, evident in the growing number of big money tournaments internationally and only the one Code S prize pot being worth it. In terms of size, yes perhaps the international scene has outgrown the Korean. However, in terms of professionalism Korea is still dominant. WTF is professionalism and why does Korea dominate it?
Production values of GSL >>>> Production values of NASL/MLG combined
The only foreign tourney to come close is Dreamhack, which does not run perpetually like GSL.
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I agree with and respect the views of Mr. Chae to a certain extent however I think that all parties just need to communicate better in the formulation of events i.e. plan events 6 months to a year ahead so that all parties can arrange their schedules in a manner that allows participation.
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On May 22 2011 07:37 425kid wrote: Lol @ this thread. Korea>>>>>>>foreign scene ainec. If there was a foreigner on the level of nestea, mc, mvp, bomber etc, then they would go to korea for the chance to win 80k a month. MC and Nestea have made over 200k just from gsl since september. Even guys like Thewind and anypro have made more in prize money than every foreigner who hasnt gone to korea
This.
If you have enough skill, theres no reason to refuse.
92k for a month? Hell yeah! take that and come back to your country..
if you're not, you don't have to go to Korea.
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Code A has to be more like courage...over one weekend with a 5k prize pot. That way foreigners can go out and participate and then know whether they have a shot in Korea over the course of 72 hrs. Living there a month just to lose in up down is shitty.
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On May 22 2011 07:30 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 07:16 skrzmark wrote:On May 22 2011 07:12 DerNebel wrote:On May 22 2011 06:56 skrzmark wrote: its kind of stupid that people don't want to go to korea. I mean how likely is it for a foreigner to win the tournaments at home? It's not like they're winning every tournament. I rather go to korea and make some money just for being in the tournament instead of going to MLG and getting knocked out in the first round earning no money, and actually losing money because of the flight and hotel expenses.
They are giving you a place to live in korea seriously... You can make 100 bucks in a day in a foreign online tournament... so you can in Code A also in the first day.
People shouldn't be going into tournaments without the attitude of winning. Foreigners go into foreign tournaments thinking they can win it, but they don't share that same attitude going into the GSL, because they know they can't win it.
Maybe players can fill in for Code A and commentate for it to make some money in Korea to help with their financial problems.
I encourage all foreign players to play in Korea, and do it for the experience, I mean Sen was living in IM when he qualified for GSL open 3 and probably got a lot of value out of it. Your are only thinking about the tournaments and the money, like many other people in this thread. The fact of the matter is that to go to Korea and play, one would have to uproot his entire life and leave everything behind him and go to a country where they barely understand your language. It is a tough decision, and the ST is not a simple weekend tournament where you can simply go home once it's over. Pro gamers are PEOPLE for christs sake! So yeah, I totally agree. It would be the best decision to leave friends and wife/girlfriend behind, try to adapt to the Korean culture, get set up in a training house, while all the same leaving every competition they might be in behind, to play in the secondbest league in a tournament that is positively hostile towards any change in the status quo. Sounds effin brilliant to me. And if the GSL really IS the premiere SC2 tournament, and is going to be that for a long time, then I'll go watch the MSL thank you very much. I won't argue that koreans are better in THAT tournament. As for anything SC2 however... You have to leave all that stuff behind if you want to pursue your career, so many people move because of work y'know. What does this even mean? Some people do it so everyone should do it too?
It means that if it's truly something you want to do, like become the very best in what is considered the highest echelon of competitive SC2, then man up and make the sacrifices instead of expecting things to be handed to you on a silver platter.
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On May 22 2011 07:55 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 07:30 fraktoasters wrote:On May 22 2011 07:16 skrzmark wrote:On May 22 2011 07:12 DerNebel wrote:On May 22 2011 06:56 skrzmark wrote: its kind of stupid that people don't want to go to korea. I mean how likely is it for a foreigner to win the tournaments at home? It's not like they're winning every tournament. I rather go to korea and make some money just for being in the tournament instead of going to MLG and getting knocked out in the first round earning no money, and actually losing money because of the flight and hotel expenses.
They are giving you a place to live in korea seriously... You can make 100 bucks in a day in a foreign online tournament... so you can in Code A also in the first day.
People shouldn't be going into tournaments without the attitude of winning. Foreigners go into foreign tournaments thinking they can win it, but they don't share that same attitude going into the GSL, because they know they can't win it.
Maybe players can fill in for Code A and commentate for it to make some money in Korea to help with their financial problems.
I encourage all foreign players to play in Korea, and do it for the experience, I mean Sen was living in IM when he qualified for GSL open 3 and probably got a lot of value out of it. Your are only thinking about the tournaments and the money, like many other people in this thread. The fact of the matter is that to go to Korea and play, one would have to uproot his entire life and leave everything behind him and go to a country where they barely understand your language. It is a tough decision, and the ST is not a simple weekend tournament where you can simply go home once it's over. Pro gamers are PEOPLE for christs sake! So yeah, I totally agree. It would be the best decision to leave friends and wife/girlfriend behind, try to adapt to the Korean culture, get set up in a training house, while all the same leaving every competition they might be in behind, to play in the secondbest league in a tournament that is positively hostile towards any change in the status quo. Sounds effin brilliant to me. And if the GSL really IS the premiere SC2 tournament, and is going to be that for a long time, then I'll go watch the MSL thank you very much. I won't argue that koreans are better in THAT tournament. As for anything SC2 however... You have to leave all that stuff behind if you want to pursue your career, so many people move because of work y'know. What does this even mean? Some people do it so everyone should do it too? It means that if it's truly something you want to do, like become the very best in what is considered the highest echelon of competitive SC2, then man up and make the sacrifices instead of expecting things to be handed to you on a silver platter. There's a thing called logistics and it simply isnt worth it. The foreign scene is more than good enough for competition and Koreans are fine on their own. They can have a korean only GSL and it wouldnt really matter much. The game is so volatile right now it has nothing to do with not being good enough, it has to do with the fact players like nestea/MVP can be in danger of going to code A in any season even though they're objectively the best of the best. GOM is doing great, but because players dont have salaries it's too risky to miss out on tournaments that pay well or with better balance in regards to the prize pool.
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On May 22 2011 07:45 namedplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 07:37 425kid wrote: Lol @ this thread. Korea>>>>>>>foreign scene ainec. If there was a foreigner on the level of nestea, mc, mvp, bomber etc, then they would go to korea for the chance to win 80k a month. MC and Nestea have made over 200k just from gsl since september. Even guys like Thewind and anypro have made more in prize money than every foreigner who hasnt gone to korea This. If you have enough skill, theres no reason to refuse. 92k for a month? Hell yeah! take that and come back to your country.. if you're not, you don't have to go to Korea.
Gosh, you might consider the teeny tiny factor that there's a CHANCE of not winning. Yes the reward would be great but there's a reason there's this concept called risk vs. reward...
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It's really simple to understand why foreigners don't really care about spending a month in Korea to make pennies. There are simply enough tournaments in NA scene , for instance, to sustain pro gamers. Now before we had IPL and NASL going to Korea wasn't a hard decision. Now that we have tournaments and GSL has to actually compete with the west for players we get this nonsense reply. So I ask anyone at GOM tv would you rather go to IPL and in a week or two have a shot at $50k prize pool or go through the trouble of going to Korea for a month for much much less for one tournament? Solution is drop code A and have two separate tournaments.
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When did we got so arrogant?
Foreign scene outgrowing the Korean one?The one who has tourney with a very large prize pool running semi permanently? The one where the matches are done in a TV studio? Are we really going to say that just because some new foreign leagues?
Hell, tbh GSL is still the highest paying tourney, if pros are so confident that the skill gap is not small then why they prefer to stay and play in small tournaments which don't pay that much? I am not saying that the Koreans are much better, but at least I respect that they take the game more seriously than us. And they are giving players a good opportunity to try out for the highest paid SC2 tournament and people are getting mad at them?
Seriously, what the hell? I can respect that they don't want to go due to personal reasons but attending GSL if you are confident in your chances is more than worthy
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There's more money outside Korea, simple as that. It's pretty easy to understand. They have to realize GSL isn't everything infact it's simple not enough for an entire World of players.
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This is more or less my personal opinion.
SC2's Pro Scene compared to BW Pro Scene is 2 different things. I think GSL believes the skill level are far above others in the Foreign scene. Which in fact is wrong. They aren't BW Pros, whom absolutely destroyed the BW scene. They barely won the WC too, don't know what makes him think he has the right to brag...
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if pros are so confident that the skill gap is not small then why they prefer to stay and play in small tournaments which don't pay that much?
In KR you get one shot at real money every month. Outside you get a couple shots at not quite as much money. Seems to me like it's a LOT safer to choose the second option. Anything lower than ro16 code S doesn't really cut it money wise anyway.
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Wow this thread is getting out of control. So much cockiness from the foreign scene  Also people seem obsessed with money over here, that's really sad and unhealthy for the competition.
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On May 22 2011 02:33 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:29 Jombozeus wrote:Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S Are we really saying that Inca is more skillful than say naniwa? Code S is being VERY disappointing for Mr. GOMTV to make such a statement. Also considering that koreans dropped like flies in the Chinese Gigabyte tournament, their bragging rights is down the drain. Obviously there may be a certain few players that don't fit stereotype, but i think we can all agree that Code S is the highest level of SC2 that a viewer can watch right now.
Absolutely not.
It's single elimination so the games aren't even comparable to that of say an MLG finals or any Finals where it pits up two equally skilled players together.
Getting into Code S may be difficult but the games I have seen so far are nothing spectacular and the GSL really needs to do something to change that or some people will just stop watching altogether.
I've already slown down my viewing of the GSL broadcasts because they always turn into one-sided fights, meaning that one player didn't prepare enough or wasn't good enough for the matchup. It never happens at MLG.
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Mr. Chae sounds like a Korean pubert talking about how great his dad is compared to other kids... what an idiotic and irresponsable response to Xeris' post.
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Obviously people will decline. With travel/accommodation they may have to pay, and the weeks they have to stay there, with a minimum prize of only $900 (compared to $2700 from before) makes it a lot less inviting.
I doubt the top foreigners are worried about being a lower skill, it just takes a huge time commitment and in worst case can yield little.
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On May 22 2011 08:10 TheOne85 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:33 Karthane wrote:On May 22 2011 02:29 Jombozeus wrote:Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S Are we really saying that Inca is more skillful than say naniwa? Code S is being VERY disappointing for Mr. GOMTV to make such a statement. Also considering that koreans dropped like flies in the Chinese Gigabyte tournament, their bragging rights is down the drain. Obviously there may be a certain few players that don't fit stereotype, but i think we can all agree that Code S is the highest level of SC2 that a viewer can watch right now. Absolutely not. It's single elimination so the games aren't even comparable to that of say an MLG finals or any Finals where it pits up two equally skilled players together. Getting into Code S may be difficult but the games I have seen so far are nothing spectacular and the GSL really needs to do something to change that or some people will just stop watching altogether. I've already slown down my viewing of the GSL broadcasts because they always turn into one-sided fights, meaning that one player didn't prepare enough or wasn't good enough for the matchup. It never happens at MLG.
Because you can't even view MLG broadcasts cuz of stream failures that's why it never happens. lol
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On May 22 2011 08:10 AlBundy wrote:Wow this thread is getting out of control. So much cockiness from the foreign scene  Also people seem obsessed with money over here, that's really sad and unhealthy for the competition.
It's not cockiness it's that we are lucky enough to have our own leagues in the West. So some of us might come off jaded about anyone going to Korea to compete. In the end it's the player decision to go.
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Moving to a new country with a lower standard of living than what I'm used to in order to play in a tournament that will net less money than playing the EU scene is why. Also, assuming you believe the Koreans are that much better than forgeigners you're also going up against stiffer competition which further lessens your chance of making money and placing high.
On May 22 2011 08:10 AlBundy wrote:Wow this thread is getting out of control. So much cockiness from the foreign scene  Also people seem obsessed with money over here, that's really sad and unhealthy for the competition.
It's not cockiness. It's the fact of live. You need money to survive unless you want to be a beggar and live on the street or with your parents. I hate money as much as anyone, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to the necessity of it.
edit: I think the fact that you have to pay for GSL while there is a TON of free content is hurting GSL. I've missed a lot of games because of this and the more GSL games i miss, the less I care about it. It's like when you watch a TV series and miss a couple episodes, it's hard to get back into without seeing the ones you missed except with TV you can DVR it and watch it later. GSL if you miss it and you didn't pay you're never going to see it.
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On May 22 2011 08:17 skrzmark wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 08:10 TheOne85 wrote:On May 22 2011 02:33 Karthane wrote:On May 22 2011 02:29 Jombozeus wrote:Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S Are we really saying that Inca is more skillful than say naniwa? Code S is being VERY disappointing for Mr. GOMTV to make such a statement. Also considering that koreans dropped like flies in the Chinese Gigabyte tournament, their bragging rights is down the drain. Obviously there may be a certain few players that don't fit stereotype, but i think we can all agree that Code S is the highest level of SC2 that a viewer can watch right now. Absolutely not. It's single elimination so the games aren't even comparable to that of say an MLG finals or any Finals where it pits up two equally skilled players together. Getting into Code S may be difficult but the games I have seen so far are nothing spectacular and the GSL really needs to do something to change that or some people will just stop watching altogether. I've already slown down my viewing of the GSL broadcasts because they always turn into one-sided fights, meaning that one player didn't prepare enough or wasn't good enough for the matchup. It never happens at MLG. Because you can't even view MLG broadcasts cuz of stream failures that's why it never happens. lol
Yeah, because viewing a stream means the match never takes place. Please stop trolling and respond in a way that isn't religiously stupid.
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On May 22 2011 07:45 namedplayer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 07:37 425kid wrote: Lol @ this thread. Korea>>>>>>>foreign scene ainec. If there was a foreigner on the level of nestea, mc, mvp, bomber etc, then they would go to korea for the chance to win 80k a month. MC and Nestea have made over 200k just from gsl since september. Even guys like Thewind and anypro have made more in prize money than every foreigner who hasnt gone to korea This. If you have enough skill, theres no reason to refuse. 92k for a month? Hell yeah! take that and come back to your country.. if you're not, you don't have to go to Korea.
The game is too volatile to actually guarantee anyone who considers himself the best to go and simply win... you'd have to stay there for at least a year to get an even field with the koreans and have a chance. Even Iron -- who was considered the best P since the beta -- took 3 seasons to win his first GSL.
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On May 22 2011 08:17 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 08:10 AlBundy wrote:Wow this thread is getting out of control. So much cockiness from the foreign scene  Also people seem obsessed with money over here, that's really sad and unhealthy for the competition. It's not cockiness it's that we are lucky enough to have our own leagues in the West. Which leagues? Are you talking about these online prerecorded leagues, like IPL or even better, NASL, where the competition is a farce? Or maybe are you talking about these once every two months unwatchable leagues, like MLG and its absolutely shitty format? Please enlighten me.
I don't get why people are content with this kind of product. We, the foreign scene, the West as you call it, deserve better. At the moment we don't have any reason to get "cocky".
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On May 22 2011 08:05 Seraphic wrote: This is more or less my personal opinion.
SC2's Pro Scene compared to BW Pro Scene is 2 different things. I think GSL believes the skill level are far above others in the Foreign scene. Which in fact is wrong. They aren't BW Pros, whom absolutely destroyed the BW scene. They barely won the WC too, don't know what makes him think he has the right to brag... you mean WC team league that korean barely won wasnt it clear that from many players korean or foreigner player interviews that koreans werent playing seriously?
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On May 22 2011 08:21 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 08:17 Baarn wrote:On May 22 2011 08:10 AlBundy wrote:Wow this thread is getting out of control. So much cockiness from the foreign scene  Also people seem obsessed with money over here, that's really sad and unhealthy for the competition. It's not cockiness it's that we are lucky enough to have our own leagues in the West. Which leagues? Are you talking about these online prerecorded leagues, like IPL or even better, NASL, where the competition is a farce? Or maybe are you talking about these once every two months unwatchable leagues, like MLG and its absolutely shitty format? Please enlighten me. I don't get why people are content with this kind of product. We, the foreign scene, the West as you call it, deserve better. At the moment we don't have any reason to get "cocky".
If you don't like IPL, NASL or MLG then don't watch it. I don't particularly like GSL so I don't watch it, but I don't go trolling in the GSL pages commenting how shitty their finals were..
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On May 22 2011 08:00 windsupernova wrote:
if pros are so confident that the skill gap is not small then why they prefer to stay and play in small tournaments which don't pay that much?
There are more tournaments in EU. You can make more money per hour played in EU.
On May 22 2011 08:00 windsupernova wrote:...try out for the highest paid SC2 tournament and people are getting mad at them?
Code A pays very little. IdrA makes more streaming in a month than the #1 code A guy gets for winning the "hardest sc2 tournament around".
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mod might as well close this thread srsly
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On May 22 2011 08:00 windsupernova wrote: When did we got so arrogant?
Foreign scene outgrowing the Korean one?The one who has tourney with a very large prize pool running semi permanently? The one where the matches are done in a TV studio? Are we really going to say that just because some new foreign leagues?
Hell, tbh GSL is still the highest paying tourney, if pros are so confident that the skill gap is not small then why they prefer to stay and play in small tournaments which don't pay that much? I am not saying that the Koreans are much better, but at least I respect that they take the game more seriously than us. And they are giving players a good opportunity to try out for the highest paid SC2 tournament and people are getting mad at them?
Seriously, what the hell? I can respect that they don't want to go due to personal reasons but attending GSL if you are confident in your chances is more than worthy
A tv studio? gomtv isn't on tv, its usually done in a gymnasium. Oh and let's not forget, if a Korean loses in this tournament they drive home and spend some gas..if anyone else internationally comes to visit? He burns up well over a grand just to compete. If a Korean drives and spends 20 bucks on gas(a stretch) and wins he can get 900 bucks..cha ching. If a foriegner spends 1300 on a flight and wins 900 bucks..he still loses 400 bucks..on top of lodging on top of a month of time..cha...no..its terrible.
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On May 22 2011 08:21 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 07:45 namedplayer wrote:On May 22 2011 07:37 425kid wrote: Lol @ this thread. Korea>>>>>>>foreign scene ainec. If there was a foreigner on the level of nestea, mc, mvp, bomber etc, then they would go to korea for the chance to win 80k a month. MC and Nestea have made over 200k just from gsl since september. Even guys like Thewind and anypro have made more in prize money than every foreigner who hasnt gone to korea This. If you have enough skill, theres no reason to refuse. 92k for a month? Hell yeah! take that and come back to your country.. if you're not, you don't have to go to Korea. The game is too volatile to actually guarantee anyone who considers himself the best to go and simply win... you'd have to stay there for at least a year to get an even field with the koreans and have a chance. Even Iron -- who was considered the best P since the beta -- took 3 seasons to win his first GSL. Tester/Trickster or Genius were considered the best tosses in beta/early seasons probably all the way up to when MC won actually.
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On May 22 2011 08:21 AlBundy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 08:17 Baarn wrote:On May 22 2011 08:10 AlBundy wrote:Wow this thread is getting out of control. So much cockiness from the foreign scene  Also people seem obsessed with money over here, that's really sad and unhealthy for the competition. It's not cockiness it's that we are lucky enough to have our own leagues in the West. Which leagues? Are you talking about these online prerecorded leagues, like IPL or even better, NASL, where the competition is a farce? Or maybe are you talking about these once every two months unwatchable leagues, like MLG and its absolutely shitty format? Please enlighten me. I don't get why people are content with this kind of product. We, the foreign scene, the West as you call it, deserve better. At the moment we don't have any reason to get "cocky".
I think it's great we have any large tournaments at all. It's a great step that is being made regardless of if it is reminiscent of some high standard you hold. I guess you enjoy some tv studio quality one sided finals more than anything positive going on around you in your area.
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As Gretorp would say, the "opportunity cost" of a foreigner attending a month-long tournament -- the cost of flight and food, the stiff competition, missing other tournaments -- is too damn high. The risk/reward ratio sucks balls.
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I'm pretty sure what he meant by GSL and MLG being on different levels is that seeding someone into MLG is seeding them into a single tournament that lasts a weekend, while seeding someone into Code S is at least a 6 week commitment
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On May 22 2011 08:05 Seraphic wrote: This is more or less my personal opinion.
SC2's Pro Scene compared to BW Pro Scene is 2 different things. I think GSL believes the skill level are far above others in the Foreign scene. Which in fact is wrong. They aren't BW Pros, whom absolutely destroyed the BW scene. They barely won the WC too, don't know what makes him think he has the right to brag...
How did the Koreans "barely" win WC? If i recall correctly, when the games actually mattered for money, the Koreans wiped the floor with the foreigners. Matter of fact, Dimaga was the only foreigner to beat a Korean in first round (partially attributed to the fact that the Koreans took the show-match so un-seriously that Nestea had to reveal his build in the ace match, thus causing his downfall in game 3 of the actual tournament), before he was promptly eliminated by a Korean in the second round (San 3-1). I hope your not basing your claim on the show match portion, where it was obvious the Koreans did not take it seriously, as is substantiated by any of the interviews by BOTH Koreans and foreigners. Hell, San even got CARRIERS......
As of right now, the Korean scene is better than the foreign scene, because they care more, thus they have every reason to brag. Every major lan tournament that involved Koreans was won by a Korean.
1. IEM was swept by Ace, Moon, and Squirtle. 2. Dreamhack was won my MC 3. Coppenhagan was stomped by MC 4. Hardcore Gamers Lan was won by Ace 5. Blizzcon was won by Genius
Now when you look at online tournaments, where lag is obviously an issue. When you practice 12 hours a day under one set of settings, even the most subtle changes are gonna affect your play dramatically. And according to Jinro, NA to KR is considered "high latency". Additionally the unfavorable lag was exacerbated by the earthquake. Idra even admitted the lag was unplayable, thus he refused to play cross server. ( Don't say its because he's cocky, now that he competes in the U.S. it no longer behooves him to blindly hype Koreans to highlight his own skill)
1. In NASL there's a Korean in the top 4 of every group, with 3 of the groups having a Korean in the top 2. Actually the only Koreans that are not top 4 right is Rainbow and Zenio. That means 8/10 Koreans are TOP 4 in their respective groups. Considering there's 10 people per group and only 2 Koreans in each group, thats pretty good. Also the Koreans in NASL are NOT the top Koreans.
2. A Korean has won the last 3 FXOPENs. Matter of fact, EVERY finalist of the last 3 FXOPENS have also been Korean.
3. SlayersMMA recently won the All 4 One Invitational
If this doesn't prove that right now, the Koreans's dedication and focus on Starcraft as a legitimate sport, makes them better. Then I don't what will.
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On May 22 2011 08:33 Vista wrote: I'm pretty sure what he meant by GSL and MLG being on different levels is that seeding someone into MLG is seeding them into a single tournament that lasts a weekend, while seeding someone into Code S is at least a 6 week commitment
Makes plenty of sense for a korean to fly to america for 3 days and win MLG for a spot in code s than to spend a month in code a to do the same thing. Other way around is much more of a commitment for non korean.
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Of course there will be rejections. Did everyone forget what happened in the actual tournament at the GSL WC? All the foreigners lost in first round except Dimaga.
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On May 22 2011 02:14 Tanatos wrote: GSL need to realise that the format simply dont suit the foreign scene. Lets reverse the situation if GSL was in europe im sure it would be as hard at it is now to get Korean players to stay for months in a foreign country.
Koreans will be happy to move to europe for ESL
To them it's 95% guarantee to win!
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On May 22 2011 08:21 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 07:45 namedplayer wrote:On May 22 2011 07:37 425kid wrote: Lol @ this thread. Korea>>>>>>>foreign scene ainec. If there was a foreigner on the level of nestea, mc, mvp, bomber etc, then they would go to korea for the chance to win 80k a month. MC and Nestea have made over 200k just from gsl since september. Even guys like Thewind and anypro have made more in prize money than every foreigner who hasnt gone to korea This. If you have enough skill, theres no reason to refuse. 92k for a month? Hell yeah! take that and come back to your country.. if you're not, you don't have to go to Korea. The game is too volatile to actually guarantee anyone who considers himself the best to go and simply win... you'd have to stay there for at least a year to get an even field with the koreans and have a chance. Even Iron -- who was considered the best P since the beta -- took 3 seasons to win his first GSL.
Fruitdealer was the best player during beta and he took GSL season 1. MC wasn't even playing.
I was 2000+ platinum on NA server during the beta and beat so many players like Qxc,Strifecro,Axlav,Filthy,Attero etc.. at the same time I was also 1600+ plat on Korea server and beat Check,MioWerra,Liveforever etc..
Fruitdealer,SSKS,Maka,Ensnare.. these were who considered the best players in Korea.
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Russian Federation949 Posts
I feel like 1 seed to code S is cool for MLG, then have 1 for Dreamhack and 1 more for another huge non Korean Lan. Cause the line ups at Dreamhack and some other Europeans lans are even stronger than MLG
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The world championship was much shorter and guaranteed money for all that participated so it was a pretty easy choice for foreigners to do it. Code A and the super tournament are far less lucrative for most participants and are a huge time-sink that makes foreigners pass up many other opportunities and put their life on hold while they go to Korea.
SC2 as an E-sport simply isn't confined to Korea like SC1 was. If GOM wants more foreigners then they're going to have to make it more lucrative for foreigners.
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On May 22 2011 08:53 Pirat6662001 wrote: I feel like 1 seed to code S is cool for MLG, then have 1 for Dreamhack and 1 more for another huge non Korean Lan. Cause the line ups at Dreamhack and some other Europeans lans are even stronger than MLG Except MC always wins...
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There's a significant difference between a one-week event and one lasting a month. I strongly believe this is the single most important reason behind the rejections.
I know I'm being Captain Obvious here, but if they'd make it a one-weekend deal like MLG or a one-week deal like IEM (or the GSL WC), there'd be a ton more interest for NA/EU progamers to participate.
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And there'd be way less prize money...
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On May 22 2011 08:58 phuzi0n wrote:
SC2 as an E-sport simply isn't confined to Korea like SC1 was. If GOM wants more foreigners then they're going to have to make it more lucrative for foreigners. But how? It seems they are already doing a lot. Giving free code a spots to foreigners, giving a CODE S spot (wich is hard as hell to get even as a korean) with code a for the 2-4 spots at MLG (where the koreans need to go through a huge qualifier tournament) and yet its not enough?
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Lol GOM has done everything to cater to the foreign audience and foreign players and it still isn't good enough for you guys. Would you rather it be like Brood War where Korea was almost entirely exclusive to foreign players?
Foreign players don't want to goto Korea to compete in the GSL for a month cause they know they are going to get stomped. Plain and simple. If they thought they had a chance at competing at a high level why would they not take a chance to compete in the most prestigious Starcraft II league? Not to mention GSL is where all the money is.
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On May 22 2011 09:07 Bobster wrote: There's a significant difference between a one-week event and one lasting a month. I strongly believe this is the single most important reason behind the rejections.
I know I'm being Captain Obvious here, but if they'd make it a one-weekend deal like MLG or a one-week deal like IEM (or the GSL WC), there'd be a ton more interest for NA/EU progamers to participate.
Yeah everybody agree that it's the main reason why foreigners don't want to go in GSL, but GOM TV can't make a one weekend format because they have a studio and people working in this studio everyday. I think it's impossible for them to satisfy most of the foreigners, but i hope there will be some guys like Huk and Jinro who want to compete with the best whatever the conditions, and skilled enough to make it far in GSL.
I'm not saying it's an easy decision for pro players in the west, but remember people like Grrr and Elky, they took big risks and achieve something big at the end. Now they are legends in the starcraft community.
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i think he ignored a lot of the foreigners arguments, I think better communication btwn scenes is going to have to occur
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It's not about thinking you can be good or believing in you or whatever Hollywood nonsense you guys come up with. It's about committing to two alternatives: doing well and staying because of it = changing your whole life or not doing so well, going home without any net gain. Going there for a month to get some cash and then getting out? It's not really an option man.
Sometimes I really question whether some of you guys have had to make any real life decisions yet.
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On May 22 2011 03:05 Yamulo wrote: Yeah... and the GSL MLG agreement was so good too.... hey.. lets give these guys an auto seat into a weekend tourny for 5k, and exchange you get to come to our country for a month for like 2k.... I just am having a hard time understanding why Mr. Chae lee is finding it strange that people are not showing up.. And after the korean performance in the world championship can he really say that code S is so much better than MLG... Maybe some players... Korean performance in World Championship? You mean the one where only 2 foreigners went to ro8 and one of those beat another foreigner in ro16?
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On May 22 2011 09:21 Timerly wrote: It's not about thinking you can be good or believing in you or whatever Hollywood nonsense you guys come up with. It's about committing to two alternatives: doing well and staying because of it = changing your whole life or not doing so well, going home without any net gain. Going there for a month to get some cash and then getting out? It's not really an option man.
Sometimes I really question whether some of you guys have had to make any real life decisions yet.
Dude, you get no gain if you can`t get past 2 rounds. You don`t even need need to win the whole thing to make more money than you would in a major foreigner tournament. Isn`t the point of sponsors is to pay for the expenses? If not then foreign scene needs a ton of work.
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On May 22 2011 08:43 mango_destroyer wrote: Of course there will be rejections. Did everyone forget what happened in the actual tournament at the GSL WC? All the foreigners lost in first round except Dimaga.
No offense to any of the foreigners that competed in the GSL WC, but I don't think they were the best representation the non-korean scene has.
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On May 22 2011 09:24 mango_destroyer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 09:21 Timerly wrote: It's not about thinking you can be good or believing in you or whatever Hollywood nonsense you guys come up with. It's about committing to two alternatives: doing well and staying because of it = changing your whole life or not doing so well, going home without any net gain. Going there for a month to get some cash and then getting out? It's not really an option man.
Sometimes I really question whether some of you guys have had to make any real life decisions yet. Dude, you get no gain if you can`t get past 2 rounds. You don`t even need need to win the whole thing to make more money than you would in a major foreigner tournament. Isn`t the point of sponsors is to pay for the expenses? If not then foreign scene needs a ton of work.
If you could easily find sponsors to pay for a one month trip to a pretty expensive city on the other side of the world we wouldn't have this discussion.
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Until there is an actual scene in Korea beyond this one series of tournaments, few foreigners will take the risk to go to Korea. You get more chances to earn money elsewhere for less of a time commitment. Sure GSL is a big prize, but you could play dozens of tournaments in the same time frame it takes to get through Code S and make a healthy wage doing it.
If GOM wants to find a way to bring foreigners to Korea, they need to look to CraftCUPs, ESLs, Zotacs, and all these other 'small time' tournaments to give players competitions to do during the off times they aren't trying to qualify or playing in Code A.
There is no 'scene' in Korea. It's just a one man show GOM has.
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Oh wow, GOMtv really doesn't understand foreigners' problem with going to Korea at all. No mention of the sacrifice of not playing any other tournament for a month, or the various problems of training on a new server. Very disappointing.
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On May 22 2011 09:26 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 08:43 mango_destroyer wrote: Of course there will be rejections. Did everyone forget what happened in the actual tournament at the GSL WC? All the foreigners lost in first round except Dimaga. No offense to any of the foreigners that competed in the GSL WC, but I don't think they were the best representation the non-korean scene has.
Dimaga and Morrow were two of the best zergs EU has to offer. Huk and Jinro were Code S foreigners. Sen is the best Non Korean Asian Zerg. Moonglade is the top Zerg on the Sea server. Any better players couldn't have been much better if at all.
If you want to say that the foreigners weren't the best, an argument could be made that not all the best Koreans were there. Anypro/San/Nada out of practice are not on the same level as MVP, MC, and Nestea. There are plenty of better Koreans, namely Bomber, MMA, Alicia, DongRaeGu..
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On May 22 2011 09:34 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 09:26 starcraft911 wrote:On May 22 2011 08:43 mango_destroyer wrote: Of course there will be rejections. Did everyone forget what happened in the actual tournament at the GSL WC? All the foreigners lost in first round except Dimaga. No offense to any of the foreigners that competed in the GSL WC, but I don't think they were the best representation the non-korean scene has. Dimaga and Morrow were two of the best zergs EU has to offer. Huk and Jinro were Code S foreigners. Sen is the best Non Korean Asian Zerg. Moonglade is the top Zerg on the Sea server. Any better players couldn't have been much better if at all. If you want to say that the foreigners weren't the best, an argument could be made that not all the best Koreans were there. Anypro/San/Nada out of practice are not on the same level as MVP, MC, and Nestea. There are plenty of better Koreans, namely Bomber, MMA, Alicia, DongRaeGu..
The problem was the line-up, it was quite heavy with zergs, and zerg was a little bit up against protoss because of the strategies that were used. But now, it's not the same situation anymore.
But yeah they were the best at this moment and they still the best actually i think, you just have to add Thorzain, Naniwa, Kas, Idra and Select.
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On May 22 2011 09:39 Samhax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 09:34 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 09:26 starcraft911 wrote:On May 22 2011 08:43 mango_destroyer wrote: Of course there will be rejections. Did everyone forget what happened in the actual tournament at the GSL WC? All the foreigners lost in first round except Dimaga. No offense to any of the foreigners that competed in the GSL WC, but I don't think they were the best representation the non-korean scene has. Dimaga and Morrow were two of the best zergs EU has to offer. Huk and Jinro were Code S foreigners. Sen is the best Non Korean Asian Zerg. Moonglade is the top Zerg on the Sea server. Any better players couldn't have been much better if at all. If you want to say that the foreigners weren't the best, an argument could be made that not all the best Koreans were there. Anypro/San/Nada out of practice are not on the same level as MVP, MC, and Nestea. There are plenty of better Koreans, namely Bomber, MMA, Alicia, DongRaeGu.. The problem was the line-up, it was quite heavy with zergs, and zerg was a little bit up against protoss because of the strategies that were used. But now, it's not the same situation anymore. But yeah they were the best at this moment and they still the best actually i think, you just have to add Thorzain, Naniwa, Kas, Idra and Select.
I agree, but, only 2 zergs played Korean Protosses. Morrow vs MC was won because MC is clearly the better player, not because of racial problems. Dimaga vs San could be the only game that could be attributed to racial issue. But even that game was partly lost due to Dimaga's failure to execute his strategies (banneling drops targeting the wrong stuff) and bad decision-making (attacking into San's concave)
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They really should consider it sponsorship wise. Arnt the sponsors paying them enough? Even so you are going to be casted live which means your sponsor gets live advertisement to the whole world (if they wear their logo or what ever). Things like MLG hardly show the players... and even so even you get aired its a very small distinct figure that you cant see the sponsorship logo on the uniform. If you compare GSL to MLG i believe that GOM gets more viewers (correct me if i am wrong as i am guessing this). More viewers helps sponsors??? But if they don't get paid.. then sukz to be them..
And the prize pool from GSL? Not big enough? i think $90k or what ever is quite huge... All players play to win. Don't EU players play to win?
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On May 22 2011 08:31 pieman819 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 08:21 s4life wrote:On May 22 2011 07:45 namedplayer wrote:On May 22 2011 07:37 425kid wrote: Lol @ this thread. Korea>>>>>>>foreign scene ainec. If there was a foreigner on the level of nestea, mc, mvp, bomber etc, then they would go to korea for the chance to win 80k a month. MC and Nestea have made over 200k just from gsl since september. Even guys like Thewind and anypro have made more in prize money than every foreigner who hasnt gone to korea This. If you have enough skill, theres no reason to refuse. 92k for a month? Hell yeah! take that and come back to your country.. if you're not, you don't have to go to Korea. The game is too volatile to actually guarantee anyone who considers himself the best to go and simply win... you'd have to stay there for at least a year to get an even field with the koreans and have a chance. Even Iron -- who was considered the best P since the beta -- took 3 seasons to win his first GSL. Tester/Trickster or Genius were considered the best tosses in beta/early seasons probably all the way up to when MC won actually.
Not really, MC was beating the shit out of people in online tournaments.. he just wasn't being lucky enough to win when it counted. Many people thought of him to be the best P.
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2228 Posts
I like how people are trying to use extreme examples to disprove Mr. Chae's claims about GSL being at a higher level than MLG seeding-wise; such as pointing out Inca vs Naniwa. Of course there will always be a few exceptions. You're pointing out one of the best in EU atm, and comparing it to one of the bottom to middle Code S players.
Mr. Chae is talking about the league as a whole. And there is definitely no question that GSL, or korean players in general are at the moment, at level or few higher than the rest of world.
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On May 22 2011 09:52 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 08:31 pieman819 wrote:On May 22 2011 08:21 s4life wrote:On May 22 2011 07:45 namedplayer wrote:On May 22 2011 07:37 425kid wrote: Lol @ this thread. Korea>>>>>>>foreign scene ainec. If there was a foreigner on the level of nestea, mc, mvp, bomber etc, then they would go to korea for the chance to win 80k a month. MC and Nestea have made over 200k just from gsl since september. Even guys like Thewind and anypro have made more in prize money than every foreigner who hasnt gone to korea This. If you have enough skill, theres no reason to refuse. 92k for a month? Hell yeah! take that and come back to your country.. if you're not, you don't have to go to Korea. The game is too volatile to actually guarantee anyone who considers himself the best to go and simply win... you'd have to stay there for at least a year to get an even field with the koreans and have a chance. Even Iron -- who was considered the best P since the beta -- took 3 seasons to win his first GSL. Tester/Trickster or Genius were considered the best tosses in beta/early seasons probably all the way up to when MC won actually. Not really, MC was beating the shit out of people in online tournaments.. he just wasn't being lucky enough to win when it counted. Many people thought of him to be the best P.
No, he was god damn awful. Remember the games in GSL 2 vs nestea? Or GSL 1 vs Polt?
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On May 22 2011 02:18 Lms0 wrote:Well, I think it's mainly the fact that you have to stay there for 1 month that is the problem for foreigner's  For the super tournament i understand that i guess, although its not like you have to stay there if you get knocked out and if you dont then obviously its worth it to stay.
But for regular seasons and the exchange program, they have changed the format to be much more appealing to foreigners. First of all most people didnt read the exchange announcement closely the winner of mlg gets a direct seed into code s, and obviously that speaks for itself totally worth it if you dont have prior commitments like wife or job in your home country and its all expenses paid as well so you dont have to worry about spending lots of money while your there. and then the next top 3 (or is it 4) get seeds into code a, they have changed the format now where code a round of 32 and round of 16 happen for the period of 4-5 days (depending on your groups 5 days max though) so you will know if you have a shot at the up and down matches within 4-5 days or if youve been eliminated you can just go home, it was an all expenses paid trip and 4-5 days of your time to get a shot at code s, if yoou dont make it less than a week isnt a big deal. If you do then yoou stay there for another 2 weeks and get a shot to be in the most prestigious tournament in the world (code s) sounds like a sweet deal to me.
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On May 22 2011 09:34 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 09:26 starcraft911 wrote:On May 22 2011 08:43 mango_destroyer wrote: Of course there will be rejections. Did everyone forget what happened in the actual tournament at the GSL WC? All the foreigners lost in first round except Dimaga. No offense to any of the foreigners that competed in the GSL WC, but I don't think they were the best representation the non-korean scene has. Dimaga and Morrow were two of the best zergs EU has to offer. Huk and Jinro were Code S foreigners. Sen is the best Non Korean Asian Zerg. Moonglade is the top Zerg on the Sea server. Any better players couldn't have been much better if at all. If you want to say that the foreigners weren't the best, an argument could be made that not all the best Koreans were there. Anypro/San/Nada out of practice are not on the same level as MVP, MC, and Nestea. There are plenty of better Koreans, namely Bomber, MMA, Alicia, DongRaeGu.. I dont agree with nada he has made it to the round of 8 at least in every season of GSL that is pretty fucking impressive if you ask me but yea i really dont think foreigners are on the same level overall and not even really that close unless your like huk and jinro and you practice like the koreans do. I mean sure foreigners that live in the west can take games of koreans here and there of course but i dont think many of them would make it that far in the GSL at the moment heck even the ones with the excellent practice environment like huk and jinro are failing to do well as of recent as time goes on the koreans will get further and further ahead unless there are some changes in NA. Ah well its kind of cool to have an elite country of gamers who are better than everyone else.
Id love to see a foreigner go over there and rip it up, i agree with what Mr. Chae had to say though its not like the winner of MLG is the same or anywhere near the same as the winner of a GSL.
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On May 22 2011 08:33 Vista wrote: I'm pretty sure what he meant by GSL and MLG being on different levels is that seeding someone into MLG is seeding them into a single tournament that lasts a weekend, while seeding someone into Code S is at least a 6 week commitment Have you ever watched a GSL, it only ever lasts at most 3 weeks, i dont understand how thats a six week commitment, only 2 players make it to the finals so for those 2 players its a 3 week commitment. I hate it when people exxagerate to try and prove a point =/
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Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
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Isn't this the opinion of one caster? A caster who was deemed (along with the other GOM commentators) to be very bad during the BW days?
I don't think officials at Gretech are this stupid, i honestly think it's just this clueless guy.
The sooner they get an ex player on the GOM casting staff the better. For everyone.
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tt i wish i could have found the edit button, i hope someone ends up translating my post lol
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On May 22 2011 10:28 TT1 wrote: tt i wish i could have found the edit button, i hope someone ends up translating my post lol well it wasnt translated fully but somebody paraphrased it so koreans got your point dont worry
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On May 22 2011 02:29 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S Are we really saying that Inca is more skillful than say naniwa? Code S is being VERY disappointing for Mr. GOMTV to make such a statement. Also considering that koreans dropped like flies in the Chinese Gigabyte tournament, their bragging rights is down the drain. Yep.
Nada pretty easily dispatched Naniwa. Inca has an incredible PvP and his PvT is solid, just a bad PvZ.
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On May 22 2011 09:53 Fubi wrote: I like how people are trying to use extreme examples to disprove Mr. Chae's claims about GSL being at a higher level than MLG seeding-wise; such as pointing out Inca vs Naniwa. Of course there will always be a few exceptions. You're pointing out one of the best in EU atm, and comparing it to one of the bottom to middle Code S players.
Mr. Chae is talking about the league as a whole. And there is definitely no question that GSL, or korean players in general are at the moment, at level or few higher than the rest of world.
No question? It has to be questionable or else half of TeamLiquid wouldn't be disagreeing with you.
As for Mr. Chae's response, I was a bit disappointed by it. It really felt like he didn't understand the problems that foreigners are having. GSL is a LONG event, and since only the top spots pay out well, it's a large gamble. No one wants to put all their eggs in one basket, as the saying goes. Plus, if foreigners are only going to get seeded into Code A, then they don't even get a CHANCE at the good prize pool unless they go through Code A, and then since its tournament style, all it takes is a bad day or a misread on a couple cheeses and bam, you're out and done for the next, what, month and a half? Like I said, going to Korea is putting all your eggs in one basket, and, well, most reasonable humans are risk adverse. Most people would rather have a steady and more reliable income than banking on one huge payout.
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On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now.
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I think the problem is this, there is a sizable gap between high level pros(Idra, Naniwa, Thorzain) and normal pros(unknown NA or EU top 200 GM), for the top pros, there is way more price money playing outside KOR than just sleeping on bunka beds of the pro teaming house inside KOR. As for the normal top 200 GM pros (dunno why they call theyselves pros) in SEA, EU and NA they realised they'll hit a dead wall once they hit KOR ladder... let alone Code A... Moonglade, Haypro anyone?
The SC2 scene are still early and small i do not see any good justifications for top foreigners to participate GSL before the game gets to Pro BW momentum.
Post KeSPA and Blizzard is a good start for eSport but does that mean we have to wait for two more years??
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On May 22 2011 10:52 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now. You know he maphacked in Brood War right?
User was warned for this post
|
On May 22 2011 11:11 War Horse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 10:52 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now. You know he maphacked in Brood War right?
That has nothing to do with what is happening in this thread.
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On May 22 2011 10:52 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now.
He needs to quit the game for 3 months for an English class. His writing is atrocious.
User was warned for this post
|
I know i don't know anywhere near as much as TT1, but is he right to say the the top foreigners are not the same level as top koreans? There has not really been a fair test to this yet. Korea vs World was the best we have, and the foreigners didn't even have the best team available whereas the korean team was full of superstars. Maybe he is right and Nestea/MVP/MC are better than IdrA/Thorzain/Nani; But saying the reason HE didn't go is because there is a skill gap between koreans and ALL foreigners is a bit out of place. I wonder how a world tournament would go with these teams:
Korea: MVP MC Nestea Bomber Losira MMA Alicia July
World: IdrA Jinro Naniwa Thorzain Dimaga White-Ra Strelok Sen
Ofcourse these teams are not comprehensive at all. Players like select/sheth/morrow etc come to mind.
I guess what i am trying to say is that TT1 should have worded his statement different to not speak for ALL foreigners. Maybe I am about to get flamed.
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On May 22 2011 11:20 meetle wrote: I know i don't know anywhere near as much as TT1, but is he right to say the the top foreigners are not the same level as top koreans? There has not really been a fair test to this yet. Korea vs World was the best we have, and the foreigners didn't even have the best team available whereas the korean team was full of superstars. Maybe he is right and Nestea/MVP/MC are better than IdrA/Thorzain/Nani; But saying the reason HE didn't go is because there is a skill gap between koreans and ALL foreigners is a bit out of place. I wonder how a world tournament would go with these teams:
Korea: MVP MC Nestea Bomber Losira MMA Alicia July
World: IdrA Jinro Naniwa Thorzain Dimaga White-Ra Strelok Sen
Ofcourse these teams are not comprehensive at all. Players like select/sheth/morrow etc come to mind.
I guess what i am trying to say is that TT1 should have worded his statement different to not speak for ALL foreigners. Maybe I am about to get flamed.
sorry bro but ur in denial
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On May 22 2011 11:12 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 11:11 War Horse wrote:On May 22 2011 10:52 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now. You know he maphacked in Brood War right? That has nothing to do with what is happening in this thread.
Yeah it's pretty lame of people to keep bringing that up. I lost a ton of respect for TT1 when he childishly lashed out at random TLers criticizing his play in a LR thread, but that post helped me gain back some respect for him.
Anyway, I really don't think it's arguable that foreigners are on par with Koreans and thus I don't see why everyone is nitpicking Mr. Chae's statement about how Code S > MLG. Sure, it might be an uncomfortable truth for some of you people, but come on - you cling to a few examples of foreigner success against Koreans while there's obviously a clear TREND of Koreans beating foreigners. And if you look at only LAN tournaments (can't believe some people are still trying to use matches like Adelscott beating MVP as proof of anything -_-), Koreans look even stronger. This isn't to say that foreigners are INCAPABLE of beating Koreans - quite the contrary. But to say the general level of play in the GSL is above that of MLG is a perfectly reasonable statement,
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On May 22 2011 11:11 War Horse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 10:52 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now. You know he maphacked in Brood War right?
Joined TL.net
Tuesday, 18th of January 2011??? do u even know what brood war is? LOL
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On May 22 2011 11:25 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 11:11 War Horse wrote:On May 22 2011 10:52 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now. You know he maphacked in Brood War right? Joined TL.net Tuesday, 18th of January 2011??? do u even know what brood war is? LOL
Because joining TL late is indicative of your BW knowledge >_>
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This is dumb, if people in US would dedicate them selves like the koreans did, then we wouldn't have this problem, koreans are simply more dedicated.
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On May 22 2011 11:28 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 11:25 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 11:11 War Horse wrote:On May 22 2011 10:52 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now. You know he maphacked in Brood War right? Joined TL.net Tuesday, 18th of January 2011??? do u even know what brood war is? LOL Because joining TL late is indicative of your BW knowledge >_>
sure it does, that indicates that theres a 99% chance of him being an idra fanboy rather than being a tl lurker
id be willing to put that theory to test if he agrees to it
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When we get a foreigner who is confident enough to take the step into GSL even though he would miss out on dreamhack or mlg we'll have someone worth watching.
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On May 22 2011 11:36 epik151 wrote: When we get a foreigner who is confident enough to take the step into GSL even though he would miss out on dreamhack or mlg we'll have someone worth watching.
impossible to do without the support of their team, its no coincidence that all the foreigners who qualified for the world championships attended the tournament and all of them declined their invitation to the super tournament =]
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On May 22 2011 03:16 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:09 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:04 Subversion wrote:and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans. Did this piss anyone else off? Nobody said this at all, did they? How arrogant is that? What the fuck. ok you got this wrong read the paragraph again it says that foreign fans not the gom people I always read that foreigners regarded Koreans has very strong and powerful, previously on a level of unbeatable(ness).
Nowhere have I seen someone say that people don't want to accept the Code A invite "because its too hard to beat Koreans". That actually hasn't been brought up at all.
Besides, all the MLG winners who've been to Korea have achieved Code S. So this dude can f*ck right off.
On May 22 2011 10:52 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now.
I don't. What the hell, foreigners aren't as good as Koreans? Look at NASL, TSL, even GSL. Even the World Champs went down to an ace match.
TT1 needs to speak for himself, maybe he can't beat Koreans, but the likes of IdrA, Jinro, Thorzain, Naniwa, HuK say whats up.
I'm so sick of placing these Koreans on a pedestal. Sure it was like that in Brood War, but foreigners have shown that they can compete with them in SC2. And to have one of our own community speaking on behalf of everyone and totally undermining the entire scene like that is fucking atrocious.
I'm too pissed, I'm taking a break from this thread.
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On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote: I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist Naniwa: ???
What he said was with regard to expanding Code-S seed for foreigners. It says so in the original article. OP left it out.
The discussion was about '4 championship bracket seed' vs. '1 Code S seed + 3 Code A seed.'
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On May 22 2011 11:22 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 11:20 meetle wrote: I know i don't know anywhere near as much as TT1, but is he right to say the the top foreigners are not the same level as top koreans? There has not really been a fair test to this yet. Korea vs World was the best we have, and the foreigners didn't even have the best team available whereas the korean team was full of superstars. Maybe he is right and Nestea/MVP/MC are better than IdrA/Thorzain/Nani; But saying the reason HE didn't go is because there is a skill gap between koreans and ALL foreigners is a bit out of place. I wonder how a world tournament would go with these teams:
Korea: MVP MC Nestea Bomber Losira MMA Alicia July
World: IdrA Jinro Naniwa Thorzain Dimaga White-Ra Strelok Sen
Ofcourse these teams are not comprehensive at all. Players like select/sheth/morrow etc come to mind.
I guess what i am trying to say is that TT1 should have worded his statement different to not speak for ALL foreigners. Maybe I am about to get flamed. sorry bro but ur in denial Denial? Sure I want to see foreigners do well but I root for Koreans a lot of the time as well. Posting that I'm in denial without any thought or reasoning behind it doesn't help the thread either.
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GOM is already doing quite a bit to accommodate foreigners, so they really don't have much room to ask for more. The onus is on Blizzard to make this work. Failure to implement LAN-latency possibilities means that there's simply no way that it's beneficial for foreigners to go to Korea because of the time commitment and there is no way to legitimately combine the Korean and foreign pro scenes - lag will keep all but a select few Koreans from participating in foreign online tournaments and it will also keep foreigners from going to Korea because you really don't have much of a chance at doing well in online tournaments from Korea because of the lag.
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On May 22 2011 11:41 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:16 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 22 2011 03:09 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:04 Subversion wrote:and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans. Did this piss anyone else off? Nobody said this at all, did they? How arrogant is that? What the fuck. ok you got this wrong read the paragraph again it says that foreign fans not the gom people I always read that foreigners regarded Koreans has very strong and powerful, previously on a level of unbeatable(ness). Nowhere have I seen someone say that people don't want to accept the Code A invite "because its too hard to beat Koreans". That actually hasn't been brought up at all. Besides, all the MLG winners who've been to Korea have achieved Code S. So this dude can f*ck right off. Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 10:52 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now. I don't. What the hell, foreigners aren't as good as Koreans? Look at NASL, TSL, even GSL. Even the World Champs went down to an ace match. TT1 needs to speak for himself, maybe he can't beat Koreans, but the likes of IdrA, Jinro, Thorzain, Naniwa, HuK say whats up. I'm so sick of placing these Koreans on a pedestal. Sure it was like that in Brood War, but foreigners have shown that they can compete with them in SC2. And to have one of our own community speaking on behalf of everyone and totally undermining the entire scene like that is fucking atrocious. I'm too pissed, I'm taking a break from this thread.
im not saying the skill difference is huge but its enought to have teams thinking its a bad investement to spend 2k out of their pocket so they can have their player competing in the super tournament rather than say an mlg or dreamhack, do u think a top foreigner would have a higher chance of winning the super tournament or an mlg/dreamhack?
also the public is pretty clueless on where everyones skill level is at, especially that of the korean/foreigner scene, the tournament sample your basing your argument on is insignificant because its so small, all the players who have played vs the top koreans have also played vs the top foreigner players so we can evaluate each others skill level which in turn allows to roughly estimate where we stand compared to them
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The best foreigners might be good enough to have a shot at beating the best koreans, but not consistently - why go to Korea to get to the ro8 and lose to MC/MVP/Nestea/whatever when they can chill in north america and europe and win everything easy? Idra won IPL with seemingly very little effort, for example.
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On May 22 2011 11:54 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 11:41 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 03:16 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 22 2011 03:09 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:04 Subversion wrote:and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans. Did this piss anyone else off? Nobody said this at all, did they? How arrogant is that? What the fuck. ok you got this wrong read the paragraph again it says that foreign fans not the gom people I always read that foreigners regarded Koreans has very strong and powerful, previously on a level of unbeatable(ness). Nowhere have I seen someone say that people don't want to accept the Code A invite "because its too hard to beat Koreans". That actually hasn't been brought up at all. Besides, all the MLG winners who've been to Korea have achieved Code S. So this dude can f*ck right off. On May 22 2011 10:52 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now. I don't. What the hell, foreigners aren't as good as Koreans? Look at NASL, TSL, even GSL. Even the World Champs went down to an ace match. TT1 needs to speak for himself, maybe he can't beat Koreans, but the likes of IdrA, Jinro, Thorzain, Naniwa, HuK say whats up. I'm so sick of placing these Koreans on a pedestal. Sure it was like that in Brood War, but foreigners have shown that they can compete with them in SC2. And to have one of our own community speaking on behalf of everyone and totally undermining the entire scene like that is fucking atrocious. I'm too pissed, I'm taking a break from this thread. im not saying the skill difference is huge but its enought to have teams thinking its a bad investement to spend 2k out of their pocket so they can have their player competing in the super tournament rather than say an mlg or dreamhack, do u think a top foreigner would have a higher chance of winning the super tournament or an mlg/dreamhack? Does it have to come down to winning the super tournament? Making the Ro8 is close to the prize purse of winning MLG or taking 3rd at dreamhack. The exposure that a player/team would get for making the Ro8 in the super tournament is much greater than what you'd get for taking anything below 1st at MLG or dreamhack as well.
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On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself:
the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
I thought MSI would definetly interested in Korean laptop market. Anyway you definetly have the point that esports sponsors are business man. If foreign team can be supported by some korean business, your goal of competeting in GSTL could be possible.
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On May 22 2011 11:54 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 11:41 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 03:16 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 22 2011 03:09 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:04 Subversion wrote:and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans. Did this piss anyone else off? Nobody said this at all, did they? How arrogant is that? What the fuck. ok you got this wrong read the paragraph again it says that foreign fans not the gom people I always read that foreigners regarded Koreans has very strong and powerful, previously on a level of unbeatable(ness). Nowhere have I seen someone say that people don't want to accept the Code A invite "because its too hard to beat Koreans". That actually hasn't been brought up at all. Besides, all the MLG winners who've been to Korea have achieved Code S. So this dude can f*ck right off. On May 22 2011 10:52 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now. I don't. What the hell, foreigners aren't as good as Koreans? Look at NASL, TSL, even GSL. Even the World Champs went down to an ace match. TT1 needs to speak for himself, maybe he can't beat Koreans, but the likes of IdrA, Jinro, Thorzain, Naniwa, HuK say whats up. I'm so sick of placing these Koreans on a pedestal. Sure it was like that in Brood War, but foreigners have shown that they can compete with them in SC2. And to have one of our own community speaking on behalf of everyone and totally undermining the entire scene like that is fucking atrocious. I'm too pissed, I'm taking a break from this thread. im not saying the skill difference is huge but its enought to have teams thinking its a bad investement to spend 2k out of their pocket so they can have their player competing in the super tournament rather than say an mlg or dreamhack, do u think a top foreigner would have a higher chance of winning the super tournament or an mlg/dreamhack? Thats a silly argument considering 90% of MLG attendies are foreigners and 90% of super tournament attendies are Korean.
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On May 22 2011 02:14 Tanatos wrote:![[image loading]](http://pocket.playxp.com/thumbs/400x/1233838?3caf4e844b213ff2) Chae Jung Won, the head of GomTV manage team "Can't understand foreigner's rejection" GSL Super Tournament begins in coming May 23rd with top 64 GSL point rankers. Super tournament has made issues by making competition of both code A and code S players, but unfortunately many foreigners, except Chris 'Huk' Loranger and Jonathan 'Jinro' Walsh, has rejected invitations. Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.' Also the manager of team Fnatic complained that "the invitaion of Super Tournament from GomTV came out in rush." PlayXP was able to hear opinion of Chae Jung Won, the head of Manage team in GomTV (also main caster of GSL), during presentation of new format change of GSL in May 19th. Mr. Chae said, "We gave the same amount of warning time as we did with World Championship. I do not understand the reason of rejection since they were able to participate in World Championship."
Wow what a bunch of nationalistic crap from the get go there. First off, maybe he can't understand the foreigner's rejection because he didn't read any of the articles/posts on Teamliquid by foreigners and progamers. If he had read them, or had them properly translated, whether or not koreans are beatable has nothing to do with it, which believe me, the nationalistic koreans like him that would say this thing, are in for a surprise when they watch the TSL3 vods. Here are the reasons and arguments I have personally read and heard for why (from casuals and pros) there is less foreign presence in korea.
1. One tournament with 200 or so entrants with no prize money, to qualify for a month long tournament that nets you only 1,500 bucks IF you win. Then after that you have to play in groups for even MORE money. And to do this, you have to live in Korea, and practice all day like you have been, which means you will be flying every single time to go to real live events, that the GSL doesn't make scheduling accomodations for selfishly. Think in the shoes of pro-gamers, before you accuse them of being cowardly in fear of korean pro-gamers as the only reason. That is not the reason. Jinro isn't even the most accomplished international pro-gamer. He is like in the middle somewhere, he's amazing don't get me wrong, just if someone like Morrow or Naniwa were living in Korea full-time for many many months like these pros, they would absolutely dominate.
Korean nationalists needs to be slapped in the face by the fact that the guys who came over were most likely still jet-lagged, not accustomed to the playstyles of korea, and completely out of their element (foreign country, sleeping in a dorm room with multiple people in bunks, no privacy) for like a week to prepare. And they still did great considering all of that, Nestea's ZvZ virginity was stolen, and many a korean pro were beat in both the team matches and the real matches. God TT1 almost gave them all a run for their money, TT-Freakin-1 one of the admittedly lesser-accomplished out of that whole group that went over there for the World Championships.
Either way, this is the most important reason I have seen, feasability both money-wise, sponsorships, etc... Sponsors want your players to be in tournaments as often as possible. If they are in Korea in the GSL, they miss out on tournaments. Sorry, but at this point I do believe the international scene is on par competitively both with viewership and level of play. No one is scared of the Koreans, they are just like the rest of us this time, stop patronizing yourself. Now maybe if a REALLY good BW player transferred over (Flash, JD, Bisu, Stork, Fantasy, etc...) then MAYBE then this argument would hold some water.
2. Let's face it if their tournament was the most competitive, it would be more like the TSL. There was hardly a one-sided match in that WHOLE tournament, there were interesting players and upsets. There were solid players making it all the way to the finals. This seems like once again a loud voice of an organization failing to do everything right, deserving some fair criticism, and not owing up to it. The GSL is NOT the most competitive. The TSL was by a long shot much more competitive, exciting, casted better, and most likely watched by more people outside of korea, than the GSL. And TL did it for free, GSL asks for money, has sponsors out the wazoo that are HUGE names. And yet the TSL still did it better. I think that GOMtv should graciously accept fans criticisms, not combat it. Bad publicity to do this imo. The reason he is saying this, is denial. "Ours is the best!~ Ours is the best!~" Just keep saying that, and subjectively it rings true.
3. As for the warning time, so we either take Xeris' word, or a GOMtv apologist's word. Well Xeris came from the stance of a manager for a team, and with lots of experience with tournaments. GOMtv's vocal outlet was... a commentator who has some ranking up in the business. Xeris does not have a personal stake in decrying the GSL. His was obviously just an honest article, he didn't get PAID or get his name out there to write that, he did it simply because it needed too be addressed. Chae Jung Woon on the other hand has a large monetary incentive to speak out like this, his income. His salary. Hey isn't that the same reason that foreigners going to the GSL lacks feasability for them?
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hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people?
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As to MLG vs. GSL I would put forth that that GSL has a higher percentage of superior players, while MLG has fewer. I think any player that has won an MLG is easily on par with the average code S player. The best of the GSL are better than the best of the MLG players, in my opinion.
Why are so many non-Koreans reluctant to go compete in the Super tournament, and why are they possibly less than excited about getting a code A invite for winning an MLG event? Its all about the money. Why miss all the other tournaments (and their prize money) to slog through code A and then take a chance at winning a GSL? If you have a family to support, or want to achive a livable income, its too much investment with too small a chance at money. Better to stay and compete in the other tournaments where you have a better chance of winning.
This is just my opinion of course. Only the players themselves can say for sure, one way or the other.
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TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans
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TLADT24920 Posts
Interesting read, thanks. I do have to agree about the difference in level between GSL and MLG. As mentioned, I think jet lag, having to stay, etc.... are the main reason for the rejections
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The biggest problem is geography....and also that a lot of the big players here are a little older and have rl commitments unlike korea where pro gamers can dedicate themselves to gaming. But even so, I doubt if someone like nestea or boxer would be okay with moving to us/europe.
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On May 22 2011 11:28 Manacakes wrote: This is dumb, if people in US would dedicate them selves like the koreans did, then we wouldn't have this problem, koreans are simply more dedicated.
Elephant in the room article, although I disagree with it on some points, points out how you are most likely wrong, it seems to me the Korean SC2 players are not all that amazingly dedicated, due to quotes from players that were in training houses on the training regimen, people doing whatever they want to do most of the time, in one of the highest level teams. Korean BW players however are super dedicated yes.
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I cant believe noone has yet commented on how ridiculously low the prize pool is in code A? surely thats the main reason noone has the motivation to go over there..... from what i'v heard about korean travel costs, winning code A itself barely covers the travel costs? Seems getting a spot in code A for that.... is a worthy prize for placing top 3 in MLG !!!!! oh wait
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Gom gave approximately 2-3 weeks to get players to Korea for super tournament. It simply wasn't going to happen.
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On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./
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On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans
ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players
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On May 22 2011 12:14 FXOpen wrote: Gom gave approximately 2-3 weeks to get players to Korea for super tournament. It simply wasn't going to happen.
but everyone got a 2-3 week heads up(not saying its right, its definitely something that gomtv needs to work on) for the world championships aswell, why is it that everyone managed to attend that and no one accepted their invitation to the super tournament?
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On May 22 2011 12:03 pieman819 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 11:54 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 11:41 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 03:16 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 22 2011 03:09 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:04 Subversion wrote:and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans. Did this piss anyone else off? Nobody said this at all, did they? How arrogant is that? What the fuck. ok you got this wrong read the paragraph again it says that foreign fans not the gom people I always read that foreigners regarded Koreans has very strong and powerful, previously on a level of unbeatable(ness). Nowhere have I seen someone say that people don't want to accept the Code A invite "because its too hard to beat Koreans". That actually hasn't been brought up at all. Besides, all the MLG winners who've been to Korea have achieved Code S. So this dude can f*ck right off. On May 22 2011 10:52 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now. I don't. What the hell, foreigners aren't as good as Koreans? Look at NASL, TSL, even GSL. Even the World Champs went down to an ace match. TT1 needs to speak for himself, maybe he can't beat Koreans, but the likes of IdrA, Jinro, Thorzain, Naniwa, HuK say whats up. I'm so sick of placing these Koreans on a pedestal. Sure it was like that in Brood War, but foreigners have shown that they can compete with them in SC2. And to have one of our own community speaking on behalf of everyone and totally undermining the entire scene like that is fucking atrocious. I'm too pissed, I'm taking a break from this thread. im not saying the skill difference is huge but its enought to have teams thinking its a bad investement to spend 2k out of their pocket so they can have their player competing in the super tournament rather than say an mlg or dreamhack, do u think a top foreigner would have a higher chance of winning the super tournament or an mlg/dreamhack? Thats a silly argument considering 90% of MLG attendies are foreigners and 90% of super tournament attendies are Korean.
Why is that a silly argument? His point still stands: sponsors don't think it's the best use of the funds because of lower success rate.
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The biggest obstacle here is the Earnings Potential for any and all players playing in Korea versus outside Korea, in combination with the various Costs and Risk a player assumes upon travelings to Korea. From a competitive perspective, Korea is probably one of, if not the best, places to test you skills in a live tournament setting. But the amount of money you stand to gain in relation to the immediate costs you incur upon traveling and subsequently take on from losing the potential winnings of foreign tournaments is still far too high in favor of the Risk.
I think that is the biggest and universal issue present here. GOM is doing an AMAZING job overall, but the risk for foreign players is way too high. Either the connectivity needs to improve between Korea and the rest of the world, or GOM would need to structure their tournaments such that it would be more conducive for a foreign pro to participate in the GSL, without completely forsaking foreign tournaments.
I can only assume the reverse is kind of true for Korean players. They must be frustrated as hell seeing the giant prize pools around the world, but because of travel cost/latency they can not consistently participate globally. Instead purely relying on invites to at least cover some of the costs for them to play abroad.
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On May 22 2011 12:21 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:14 FXOpen wrote: Gom gave approximately 2-3 weeks to get players to Korea for super tournament. It simply wasn't going to happen. but everyone got a 2-3 week heads up(not saying its right, its definitely something that gomtv needs to work on) for the world championships aswell, why is it that everyone managed to attend that and no one accepted their invitation to the super tournament?
Perhaps because there are more events closer to home now. Starcraft leagues and tournaments popping up everywhere :D
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On May 22 2011 12:14 FXOpen wrote: Gom gave approximately 2-3 weeks to get players to Korea for super tournament. It simply wasn't going to happen.
Surely the next super tournament teams will have more of a heads up and will have more time to better plan trips to korea for players.
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On May 22 2011 11:41 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:16 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 22 2011 03:09 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:04 Subversion wrote:and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans. Did this piss anyone else off? Nobody said this at all, did they? How arrogant is that? What the fuck. ok you got this wrong read the paragraph again it says that foreign fans not the gom people I always read that foreigners regarded Koreans has very strong and powerful, previously on a level of unbeatable(ness). Nowhere have I seen someone say that people don't want to accept the Code A invite "because its too hard to beat Koreans". That actually hasn't been brought up at all. Besides, all the MLG winners who've been to Korea have achieved Code S. So this dude can f*ck right off. Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 10:52 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now. I don't. What the hell, foreigners aren't as good as Koreans? Look at NASL, TSL, even GSL. Even the World Champs went down to an ace match. TT1 needs to speak for himself, maybe he can't beat Koreans, but the likes of IdrA, Jinro, Thorzain, Naniwa, HuK say whats up. I'm so sick of placing these Koreans on a pedestal. Sure it was like that in Brood War, but foreigners have shown that they can compete with them in SC2. And to have one of our own community speaking on behalf of everyone and totally undermining the entire scene like that is fucking atrocious. I'm too pissed, I'm taking a break from this thread.
Before you get pissed maybe you should have taken the time to read my previous post instead of making brash assumptions without any substantiation. Here I'll be nice and relink it to you.
How did the Koreans "barely" win WC? If i recall correctly, when the games actually mattered for money, the Koreans wiped the floor with the foreigners. Matter of fact, Dimaga was the only foreigner to beat a Korean in first round (partially attributed to the fact that the Koreans took the show-match so un-seriously that Nestea had to reveal his build in the ace match, thus causing his downfall in game 3 of the actual tournament), before he was promptly eliminated by a Korean in the second round (San 3-1). I hope your not basing your claim on the show match portion, where it was obvious the Koreans did not take it seriously, as is substantiated by any of the interviews by BOTH Koreans and foreigners. Hell, San even got CARRIERS......
As of right now, the Korean scene is better than the foreign scene, because they care more, thus they have every reason to brag. Every major lan tournament that involved Koreans was won by a Korean.
1. IEM was swept by Ace, Moon, and Squirtle. 2. Dreamhack was won my MC 3. Coppenhagan was stomped by MC 4. Hardcore Gamers Lan was won by Ace 5. Blizzcon was won by Genius
Now when you look at online tournaments, where lag is obviously an issue. When you practice 12 hours a day under one set of settings, even the most subtle changes are gonna affect your play dramatically. And according to Jinro, NA to KR is considered "high latency". Additionally the unfavorable lag was exacerbated by the earthquake. Idra even admitted the lag was unplayable, thus he refused to play cross server. ( Don't say its because he's cocky, now that he competes in the U.S. it no longer behooves him to blindly hype Koreans to highlight his own skill)
1. In NASL there's a Korean in the top 4 of every group, with 3 of the groups having a Korean in the top 2. Actually the only Koreans that are not top 4 right is Rainbow and Zenio. That means 8/10 Koreans are TOP 4 in their respective groups. Considering there's 10 people per group and only 2 Koreans in each group, thats pretty good. Also the Koreans in NASL are NOT the top Koreans.
2. A Korean has won the last 3 FXOPENs. Matter of fact, EVERY finalist of the last 3 FXOPENS have also been Korean.
3. SlayersMMA recently won the All 4 One Invitational
If this doesn't prove that right now, the Koreans's dedication and focus on Starcraft as a legitimate sport, makes them better. Then I don't what will.
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On May 22 2011 12:12 obsidia wrote: I cant believe noone has yet commented on how ridiculously low the prize pool is in code A? surely thats the main reason noone has the motivation to go over there..... from what i'v heard about korean travel costs, winning code A itself barely covers the travel costs? Seems getting a spot in code A for that.... is a worthy prize for placing top 3 in MLG !!!!! oh wait
Yeah but if you consider yourself able to compete with the likes of Nestea and other top tier code S players, making it through code A would be no problem right? It's a pretty good prize for "33rd place". gsl easily has the highest prize pool @ 120k/month. You can't get that as a foreigner even if you win all the tsls, ipls, dreamhacks etc. nasl is the closest but thats online and 100k/3months.
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On May 22 2011 12:22 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The biggest obstacle here is the Earnings Potential for any and all players playing in Korea versus outside Korea, in combination with the various Costs and Risk a player assumes upon travelings to Korea. From a competitive perspective, Korea is probably one of, if not the best, places to test you skills in a live tournament setting. But the amount of money you stand to gain in relation to the immediate costs you incur upon traveling and subsequently take on from losing the potential winnings of foreign tournaments is still far too high in favor of the Risk.
I think that is the biggest and universal issue present here. GOM is doing an AMAZING job overall, but the risk for foreign players is way too high. Either the connectivity needs to improve between Korea and the rest of the world, or GOM would need to structure their tournaments such that it would be more conducive for a foreign pro to participate in the GSL, without completely forsaking foreign tournaments.
I can only assume the reverse is kind of true for Korean players. They must be frustrated as hell seeing the giant prize pools around the world, but because of travel cost/latency they can not consistently participate globally. Instead purely relying on invites to at least cover some of the costs for them to play abroad. Winning a single game in the super tournament is as almost as much prizemoney as getting 5th in MLG and just being in the R32 of code S even if you lose all your group matches is the same as getting 4th.
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Don't listen to the haters TT1. I really respect your maturity in admitting that there is a skill gap between foreigners and Koreans right now. I hope that you can continue to improve your play and someday go compete in GSL again. You have yourself a new fan
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On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./
Old GSL format actually boosted earning potential with having top prize double what it is now. This was prior to all the opportunities there are now in the foreign scene. Maybe I'll eat my words but in a year you'll see more of a foreign presence at the very top of that list.
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On May 22 2011 12:36 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Old GSL format actually boosted earning potential with having top prize double what it is now. This was prior to all the opportunities there are now in the foreign scene. Maybe I'll eat my words but in a year you'll see more of a foreign presence at the very top of that list. Read my post 2 posts up, every month there are 33 (32 code S and winner of code A) players earning at minimum as much as a 4th place MLG.
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The decision to make the winner of Code A go straight to Code S is an excellent idea. I always thought that Code A was a useless tournament and was only their for fill-time during the Code S matches. If players only goal was to get into Code S, then all they needed to do is just win their Up and Downs.
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On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players
If this trend continues [foreigners not being able to make any type of commitment to train in Korea], the SC2 scene will just end up being like the BW scene, with Korea dominating everyone. It kind of makes me sad.
It's unfortunate that western pros see absolutely no incentive to compete with the best because of all the "easy" money that's available to them in the West.
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On May 22 2011 12:31 BackSideAttack wrote:Don't listen to the haters TT1. I really respect your maturity in admitting that there is a skill gap between foreigners and Koreans right now. I hope that you can continue to improve your play and someday go compete in GSL again. You have yourself a new fan 
the problem is for every new fan i make myself 10 antifans : D
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Mr. Chae its just simple dollars and cents. $900 just pays for a ticket to Korea. You still need lodging and food. When then opportunity cost is better, I imagine that foreign players will go to Korea to play.
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On May 22 2011 12:29 pieman819 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:22 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The biggest obstacle here is the Earnings Potential for any and all players playing in Korea versus outside Korea, in combination with the various Costs and Risk a player assumes upon travelings to Korea. From a competitive perspective, Korea is probably one of, if not the best, places to test you skills in a live tournament setting. But the amount of money you stand to gain in relation to the immediate costs you incur upon traveling and subsequently take on from losing the potential winnings of foreign tournaments is still far too high in favor of the Risk.
I think that is the biggest and universal issue present here. GOM is doing an AMAZING job overall, but the risk for foreign players is way too high. Either the connectivity needs to improve between Korea and the rest of the world, or GOM would need to structure their tournaments such that it would be more conducive for a foreign pro to participate in the GSL, without completely forsaking foreign tournaments.
I can only assume the reverse is kind of true for Korean players. They must be frustrated as hell seeing the giant prize pools around the world, but because of travel cost/latency they can not consistently participate globally. Instead purely relying on invites to at least cover some of the costs for them to play abroad. Winning a single game in the super tournament is as almost as much prizemoney as getting 5th in MLG and just being in the R32 of code S even if you lose all your group matches is the same as getting 4th.
But that is one tournament, if you lose you get nothing other than previous round earnings. While in NA, EU you have many major tournaments as well and an innumerable about of smaller tournaments. Even if the total winnings between the two were equal, the number of chances to win portions of it are not.
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On May 22 2011 12:46 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:31 BackSideAttack wrote:Don't listen to the haters TT1. I really respect your maturity in admitting that there is a skill gap between foreigners and Koreans right now. I hope that you can continue to improve your play and someday go compete in GSL again. You have yourself a new fan  the problem is for every new fan i make myself 10 antifans : D
Yeah I really appreciate the honesty. I've been a fan since brood war because I love your play as well
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On May 22 2011 12:52 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:29 pieman819 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:22 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: The biggest obstacle here is the Earnings Potential for any and all players playing in Korea versus outside Korea, in combination with the various Costs and Risk a player assumes upon travelings to Korea. From a competitive perspective, Korea is probably one of, if not the best, places to test you skills in a live tournament setting. But the amount of money you stand to gain in relation to the immediate costs you incur upon traveling and subsequently take on from losing the potential winnings of foreign tournaments is still far too high in favor of the Risk.
I think that is the biggest and universal issue present here. GOM is doing an AMAZING job overall, but the risk for foreign players is way too high. Either the connectivity needs to improve between Korea and the rest of the world, or GOM would need to structure their tournaments such that it would be more conducive for a foreign pro to participate in the GSL, without completely forsaking foreign tournaments.
I can only assume the reverse is kind of true for Korean players. They must be frustrated as hell seeing the giant prize pools around the world, but because of travel cost/latency they can not consistently participate globally. Instead purely relying on invites to at least cover some of the costs for them to play abroad. Winning a single game in the super tournament is as almost as much prizemoney as getting 5th in MLG and just being in the R32 of code S even if you lose all your group matches is the same as getting 4th. But that is one tournament, if you lose you get nothing other than previous round earnings. While in NA, EU you have many major tournaments as well and an innumerable about of smaller tournaments. Even if the total winnings between the two were equal, the number of chances to win portions of it are not. There are more or at least as many GSL's than major US/EU tournaments, and you only have to be in code S to earn as much as a high placing in one of those tournaments. FXO does some online stuff too that the Koreans are always in.
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On May 22 2011 12:46 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:31 BackSideAttack wrote:Don't listen to the haters TT1. I really respect your maturity in admitting that there is a skill gap between foreigners and Koreans right now. I hope that you can continue to improve your play and someday go compete in GSL again. You have yourself a new fan  the problem is for every new fan i make myself 10 antifans : D then i guess you just made yourself 10 more antifans cause i just became a fan after i saw that post in playxp
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On May 22 2011 12:45 gozima wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players If this trend continues [foreigners not being able to make any type of commitment to train in Korea], the SC2 scene will just end up being like the BW scene, with Korea dominating everyone. It kind of makes me sad. It's unfortunate that western pros see absolutely no incentive to compete with the best because of all the "easy" money that's available to them in the West.
yup, the leap in skill has been HUGE in korea ever since sc2 came out, i could safely say that a few of the foreigners were better than the top koreans in the earlier days of sc2(i actually thought idra had a good chance of winning one of the 1st 2 gsl seasons if he had a bit of luck) but ever since they started setting up proteam houses theyve been improving at a much faster rate than us, their understanding/execution of the game is just evolving much faster than us and sadly if were not able to have to same type of infrastructure(which i dont see happening anytime soon) that the koreans have were just gonna end up falling behind even more
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On May 22 2011 13:03 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:45 gozima wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players If this trend continues [foreigners not being able to make any type of commitment to train in Korea], the SC2 scene will just end up being like the BW scene, with Korea dominating everyone. It kind of makes me sad. It's unfortunate that western pros see absolutely no incentive to compete with the best because of all the "easy" money that's available to them in the West. yup, the leap in skill has been HUGE in korea ever since sc2 came out, i could safely say that a few of the foreigners were better than the top koreans in the earlier days of sc2(i actually thought idra had a good chance of winning one of the 1st 2 gsl seasons if he had a bit of luck) but ever since they started setting up proteam houses theyve been improving at a much faster rate than us, their understanding/execution of the game is just evolving much faster than us and sadly if were not able to have to same type of infrastructure(which i dont see happening anytime soon) that the koreans have were just gonna end up falling behind even more
Thanks TT1 for giving us your honest opinion and I do agree with you. If Western Pros don't step up the skill gap will only get bigger and bigger and we will have a BW situation again.
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On May 22 2011 13:03 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:45 gozima wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players If this trend continues [foreigners not being able to make any type of commitment to train in Korea], the SC2 scene will just end up being like the BW scene, with Korea dominating everyone. It kind of makes me sad. It's unfortunate that western pros see absolutely no incentive to compete with the best because of all the "easy" money that's available to them in the West. yup, the leap in skill has been HUGE in korea ever since sc2 came out, i could safely say that a few of the foreigners were better than the top koreans in the earlier days of sc2(i actually thought idra had a good chance of winning one of the 1st 2 gsl seasons if he had a bit of luck) but ever since they started setting up proteam houses theyve been improving at a much faster rate than us, their understanding/execution of the game is just evolving much faster than us and sadly if were not able to have to same type of infrastructure(which i dont see happening anytime soon) that the koreans have were just gonna end up falling behind even more
I'm just curious, do you think progaming houses like the Root and the one in Sweden are enough to close the gap or do you think coaches, a more strict and regulated approach to the game and(or) stuff like that is necessary?
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On May 22 2011 13:09 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 13:03 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:45 gozima wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players If this trend continues [foreigners not being able to make any type of commitment to train in Korea], the SC2 scene will just end up being like the BW scene, with Korea dominating everyone. It kind of makes me sad. It's unfortunate that western pros see absolutely no incentive to compete with the best because of all the "easy" money that's available to them in the West. yup, the leap in skill has been HUGE in korea ever since sc2 came out, i could safely say that a few of the foreigners were better than the top koreans in the earlier days of sc2(i actually thought idra had a good chance of winning one of the 1st 2 gsl seasons if he had a bit of luck) but ever since they started setting up proteam houses theyve been improving at a much faster rate than us, their understanding/execution of the game is just evolving much faster than us and sadly if were not able to have to same type of infrastructure(which i dont see happening anytime soon) that the koreans have were just gonna end up falling behind even more Thanks TT1 for giving us your honest opinion and I do agree with you. If Western Pros don't step up the skill gap will only get bigger and bigger and we will have a BW situation again.
theres only so much individual players can do, need $$$/sponsorship support bro
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simple you spend more money intro going is such a an investment with out saying staying...what it takes to win it so you dont understand cause tournament is on korea..you lvie there is not hte same that flying from outside gomtv is great but what if theres no gomtv and only mlg ? send your players over there stay for a month oh good luck winning also ...its easy for them cause torunament is on korea..no support GG
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Theres a reason MLG, IPL, NASL, and TSL etc are all over one weekend or online.
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well all complains about korean they arent good cuase they korean they are good cause they have a structure of how to make things... simple pro houses started pump in and team..enviroment and system matters all complain koreans koreans well we all know this right ? if their system works why dont do the same set house .. yes i know i cant or impossible to much money etc what ever reason is then just dont go oh will go bw scene again zzz would be nice too see pro game houses soon outside korea =] till then...
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On May 22 2011 13:21 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 13:09 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 13:03 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:45 gozima wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players If this trend continues [foreigners not being able to make any type of commitment to train in Korea], the SC2 scene will just end up being like the BW scene, with Korea dominating everyone. It kind of makes me sad. It's unfortunate that western pros see absolutely no incentive to compete with the best because of all the "easy" money that's available to them in the West. yup, the leap in skill has been HUGE in korea ever since sc2 came out, i could safely say that a few of the foreigners were better than the top koreans in the earlier days of sc2(i actually thought idra had a good chance of winning one of the 1st 2 gsl seasons if he had a bit of luck) but ever since they started setting up proteam houses theyve been improving at a much faster rate than us, their understanding/execution of the game is just evolving much faster than us and sadly if were not able to have to same type of infrastructure(which i dont see happening anytime soon) that the koreans have were just gonna end up falling behind even more Thanks TT1 for giving us your honest opinion and I do agree with you. If Western Pros don't step up the skill gap will only get bigger and bigger and we will have a BW situation again. theres only so much individual players can do, need $$$/sponsorship support bro
Well it comes down to the dedication of the player. If Mr. Yong asks Jaedong to practice 100 games for an upcoming match he's gonna do it and not complain. If you look at other players (not gonna call anyone but you know who practices and who doesn't regularly) that participate in star2 tournaments I don't believe for 10 seconds they do that or would unless put under the spotlight.
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On May 22 2011 13:10 Mephiztopheles1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 13:03 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:45 gozima wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players If this trend continues [foreigners not being able to make any type of commitment to train in Korea], the SC2 scene will just end up being like the BW scene, with Korea dominating everyone. It kind of makes me sad. It's unfortunate that western pros see absolutely no incentive to compete with the best because of all the "easy" money that's available to them in the West. yup, the leap in skill has been HUGE in korea ever since sc2 came out, i could safely say that a few of the foreigners were better than the top koreans in the earlier days of sc2(i actually thought idra had a good chance of winning one of the 1st 2 gsl seasons if he had a bit of luck) but ever since they started setting up proteam houses theyve been improving at a much faster rate than us, their understanding/execution of the game is just evolving much faster than us and sadly if were not able to have to same type of infrastructure(which i dont see happening anytime soon) that the koreans have were just gonna end up falling behind even more I'm just curious, do you think progaming houses like the Root and the one in Sweden are enough to close the gap or do you think coaches, a more strict and regulated approach to the game and(or) stuff like that is necessary?
On May 22 2011 13:10 Mephiztopheles1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 13:03 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:45 gozima wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players If this trend continues [foreigners not being able to make any type of commitment to train in Korea], the SC2 scene will just end up being like the BW scene, with Korea dominating everyone. It kind of makes me sad. It's unfortunate that western pros see absolutely no incentive to compete with the best because of all the "easy" money that's available to them in the West. yup, the leap in skill has been HUGE in korea ever since sc2 came out, i could safely say that a few of the foreigners were better than the top koreans in the earlier days of sc2(i actually thought idra had a good chance of winning one of the 1st 2 gsl seasons if he had a bit of luck) but ever since they started setting up proteam houses theyve been improving at a much faster rate than us, their understanding/execution of the game is just evolving much faster than us and sadly if were not able to have to same type of infrastructure(which i dont see happening anytime soon) that the koreans have were just gonna end up falling behind even more I'm just curious, do you think progaming houses like the Root and the one in Sweden are enough to close the gap or do you think coaches, a more strict and regulated approach to the game and(or) stuff like that is necessary?
i cant speak for the swedish house but the root house is more like a place where i can chill with 2 friends rather than it being a serious practice environment, im not doing anything i wasnt already doing at home so(and im actually practicing about the same amount as when i was in canada ).. it hasnt been very helpful gaming-wise but its allowed me to relax more and have a good time =]
gaming-wise its definetly nowhere near what i experienced living with all the foreigners in the gomtv house, now that was a fucking practice environment, im sure if any serious gamer were to live in that sort of environment they would improve ridiculously fast(sadly we only had 2 weeks)
essentially living conditions here >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in korea but gaming conditions in the gomtv house >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here, its uncomparable
its easy to have good gaming conditions tho, all u need is 5-6 top players(preferably 2 from each race)
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The time commitment is almost certainly the main reason, along with lack of free travel. Foreigners in other games like WC 3, CS, and DOTA go regularly to tournaments all across Europe, and to China, Korea, Malaysia, etc. when invited. But for SC 2 they don't seem to be interested. The difference between WC 3, CS, and DOTA tournaments and the GSL, including the GSL Super Tournament, is that they're not month-long, but week-long, or in some cases weekend-long affairs, and travel expenses are usually paid by the organizers.
It's quite obvious when comparing foreigners' response to the GSL WC and the actual GSL leagues what the reason for the rejections is. What's not obvious is what the GSL organizers intend to do about it, if anything.
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On May 22 2011 13:44 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 13:10 Mephiztopheles1 wrote:On May 22 2011 13:03 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:45 gozima wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players If this trend continues [foreigners not being able to make any type of commitment to train in Korea], the SC2 scene will just end up being like the BW scene, with Korea dominating everyone. It kind of makes me sad. It's unfortunate that western pros see absolutely no incentive to compete with the best because of all the "easy" money that's available to them in the West. yup, the leap in skill has been HUGE in korea ever since sc2 came out, i could safely say that a few of the foreigners were better than the top koreans in the earlier days of sc2(i actually thought idra had a good chance of winning one of the 1st 2 gsl seasons if he had a bit of luck) but ever since they started setting up proteam houses theyve been improving at a much faster rate than us, their understanding/execution of the game is just evolving much faster than us and sadly if were not able to have to same type of infrastructure(which i dont see happening anytime soon) that the koreans have were just gonna end up falling behind even more I'm just curious, do you think progaming houses like the Root and the one in Sweden are enough to close the gap or do you think coaches, a more strict and regulated approach to the game and(or) stuff like that is necessary? Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 13:10 Mephiztopheles1 wrote:On May 22 2011 13:03 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:45 gozima wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players If this trend continues [foreigners not being able to make any type of commitment to train in Korea], the SC2 scene will just end up being like the BW scene, with Korea dominating everyone. It kind of makes me sad. It's unfortunate that western pros see absolutely no incentive to compete with the best because of all the "easy" money that's available to them in the West. yup, the leap in skill has been HUGE in korea ever since sc2 came out, i could safely say that a few of the foreigners were better than the top koreans in the earlier days of sc2(i actually thought idra had a good chance of winning one of the 1st 2 gsl seasons if he had a bit of luck) but ever since they started setting up proteam houses theyve been improving at a much faster rate than us, their understanding/execution of the game is just evolving much faster than us and sadly if were not able to have to same type of infrastructure(which i dont see happening anytime soon) that the koreans have were just gonna end up falling behind even more I'm just curious, do you think progaming houses like the Root and the one in Sweden are enough to close the gap or do you think coaches, a more strict and regulated approach to the game and(or) stuff like that is necessary? i cant speak for the swedish house but the root house is more like a place where i can chill with 2 friends rather than it being a serious practice environment, im not doing anything i wasnt already doing at home so(and im actually practicing about the same amount as when i was in canada ).. it hasnt been very helpful gaming-wise but its allowed me to relax more and have a good time =] gaming-wise its definetly nowhere near what i experienced living with all the foreigners in the gomtv house, now that was a fucking practice environment, im sure if any serious gamer were to live in that sort of environment they would improve ridiculously fast(sadly we only had 2 weeks) essentially living conditions here >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in korea but gaming conditions in the gomtv house >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here, its uncomparable its easy to have good gaming conditions tho, all u need is 5-6 top players(preferably 2 from each race)
I see, thanks for the insight 
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I think the main problem is that in korea all you have are GSL's and if you get knocked out early or in the preliminary rounds then you are basically doing nothing for a month and a half. Korea needs more online tournaments and/or another big league like BW has MSL and OSL. then you might see more foreigners willing to move.
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On May 22 2011 13:54 Azarkon wrote: The time commitment is almost certainly the main reason, along with lack of free travel. Foreigners in other games like WC 3, CS, and DOTA go regularly to tournaments all across Europe, and to China, Korea, Malaysia, etc. when invited. But for SC 2 they don't seem to be interested. The difference between WC 3, CS, and DOTA tournaments and the GSL, including the GSL Super Tournament, is that they're not month-long, but week-long, or in some cases weekend-long affairs, and travel expenses are usually paid by the organizers.
It's quite obvious when comparing foreigners' response to the GSL WC and the actual GSL leagues what the reason for the rejections is. What's not obvious is what the GSL organizers intend to do about it, if anything. The new schedule that gom has makes it alot easier to travel to weekend tournaments and the MLG winners/top 4 will have their trips paid for, this isn't in affect for the super tournament but in future GSL seasons it shouldn't be as much of an issue.
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On May 22 2011 13:44 TT1 wrote: i cant speak for the swedish house but the root house is more like a place where i can chill with 2 friends rather than it being a serious practice environment, im not doing anything i wasnt already doing at home so(and im actually practicing about the same amount as when i was in canada ).. it hasnt been very helpful gaming-wise but its allowed me to relax more and have a good time =]
gaming-wise its definetly nowhere near what i experienced living with all the foreigners in the gomtv house, now that was a fucking practice environment, im sure if any serious gamer were to live in that sort of environment they would improve ridiculously fast(sadly we only had 2 weeks)
essentially living conditions here >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in korea but gaming conditions in the gomtv house >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here, its uncomparable
its easy to have good gaming conditions tho, all u need is 5-6 top players(preferably 2 from each race)
Yup, you would need about 6 months to really start seeing the results. :/
Our environment is a lot more lax and easy going.
It's more of a money issue.
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On May 22 2011 14:09 HEROwithNOlegacy wrote: I think the main problem is that in korea all you have are GSL's and if you get knocked out early or in the preliminary rounds then you are basically doing nothing for a month and a half. Korea needs more online tournaments and/or another big league like BW has MSL and OSL. then you might see more foreigners willing to move. There are only 3 MSL and 3 OSL a year so that isn't a factor since there are more than 6 GSL a year.
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On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players
Again, you keep speaking for everyone and making these sweeping statements. I really think you need to stop pretending you're the mouthpiece of the foreign community and speak for yourself.
I really think a lot of foreigners who haven't even been to Korea, e.g. TSL3 finalists Naniwa and Thorzain, would not say that they can "never win consistently vs the top players".
Being a pro player doesn't let you speak for everyone. The only person you can speak for is yourself, period.
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Wow. Personally, I think foreigners just need to overcome this "Koreans are the best" attitude. While true, it's mostly because most foreigners are too lazy to practice as much as Koreans, except HuK, IdrA, Jinro, and a few others. I commend them for practicing and streaming so much.
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On May 22 2011 02:33 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 02:29 Jombozeus wrote:Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S Are we really saying that Inca is more skillful than say naniwa? Code S is being VERY disappointing for Mr. GOMTV to make such a statement. Also considering that koreans dropped like flies in the Chinese Gigabyte tournament, their bragging rights is down the drain. Obviously there may be a certain few players that don't fit stereotype, but i think we can all agree that Code S is the highest level of SC2 that a viewer can watch right now.
no, it's really not. koreans were outclassing foreigners more convincingly in the beta, as of now they are not, as a community, better than anyone else. there's certain players that really stand out and are exceptional, but MC can and has been beaten by foreigners, as well as nestea, MVP, july, nada and whoever else that beats everyone else in the korean scene. foreigners have won match ups against the best koreans that their fellow korean players cannot come close to doing, like white ra beating MC in PvP and dimaga beating Nestea in ZvZ . they don't outclass foreigners the way someone like, not even including bonjwas, someone like Effort could laughably outclass Idra, his foreigner teammate in BW. it's not the same thing
i think it's cool for the communities to have global competition, but i don't think code S is some kind of special privilege the way you might think a foreigner getting invited into a BW team would be. their best players are some of the best in the world, but the general competition isn't any better, the prize money isn't that much higher if you don't win top 8 code S, and the costs as well as dedication of your time to fund a trip to live a month in korea are much MUCH higher than staying in your room and winning online tournaments.
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On May 22 2011 03:01 AndreiDaGiant wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote: I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist Naniwa: ??? That is a really good point...
What? Thats not a point at all, if anything it goes against what he is trying to say. Obviously the GSL commentator person is not saying a Person who Wins MLG is not good enough for Code S, that would be ridiculous. Do you think he believes that if Nestea went to MLG, and won, he would suddenly not be good enough for Code S? What he is saying is that Going through qualifiers to get into code A, getting through Code A, Then winning up and down matches is harder than winning one of the ..5? MLG events. I mean look at it this way, Every single code S player who has tried his luck at MLG has won an MLG tournament. Also is not Huk the only one who has actually qualified to the current code S? Which again is arguably a lot harder than it was to get into Code S to begin with.
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On May 22 2011 14:15 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players Again, you keep speaking for everyone and making these sweeping statements. I really think you need to stop pretending you're the mouthpiece of the foreign community and speak for yourself. I really think a lot of foreigners who haven't even been to Korea, e.g. TSL3 finalists Naniwa and Thorzain, would not say that they can "never win consistently vs the top players". Being a pro player doesn't let you speak for everyone. The only person you can speak for is yourself, period.
im not being a mouthpiece im just being honest, if you want to live in ur lil fictitious fairy land then be my guest
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Lol at the people arguing with tt1.
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On May 22 2011 13:35 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 13:21 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 13:09 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 13:03 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:45 gozima wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players If this trend continues [foreigners not being able to make any type of commitment to train in Korea], the SC2 scene will just end up being like the BW scene, with Korea dominating everyone. It kind of makes me sad. It's unfortunate that western pros see absolutely no incentive to compete with the best because of all the "easy" money that's available to them in the West. yup, the leap in skill has been HUGE in korea ever since sc2 came out, i could safely say that a few of the foreigners were better than the top koreans in the earlier days of sc2(i actually thought idra had a good chance of winning one of the 1st 2 gsl seasons if he had a bit of luck) but ever since they started setting up proteam houses theyve been improving at a much faster rate than us, their understanding/execution of the game is just evolving much faster than us and sadly if were not able to have to same type of infrastructure(which i dont see happening anytime soon) that the koreans have were just gonna end up falling behind even more Thanks TT1 for giving us your honest opinion and I do agree with you. If Western Pros don't step up the skill gap will only get bigger and bigger and we will have a BW situation again. theres only so much individual players can do, need $$$/sponsorship support bro Well it comes down to the dedication of the player. If Mr. Yong asks Jaedong to practice 100 games for an upcoming match he's gonna do it and not complain. If you look at other players (not gonna call anyone but you know who practices and who doesn't regularly) that participate in star2 tournaments I don't believe for 10 seconds they do that or would unless put under the spotlight. that's slave labor. No one wants to go back to how it was in broodwar and the koreans are specifically trying to avoid that kind of regiment.
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On May 22 2011 14:37 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 13:35 Baarn wrote:On May 22 2011 13:21 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 13:09 windsupernova wrote:On May 22 2011 13:03 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:45 gozima wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players If this trend continues [foreigners not being able to make any type of commitment to train in Korea], the SC2 scene will just end up being like the BW scene, with Korea dominating everyone. It kind of makes me sad. It's unfortunate that western pros see absolutely no incentive to compete with the best because of all the "easy" money that's available to them in the West. yup, the leap in skill has been HUGE in korea ever since sc2 came out, i could safely say that a few of the foreigners were better than the top koreans in the earlier days of sc2(i actually thought idra had a good chance of winning one of the 1st 2 gsl seasons if he had a bit of luck) but ever since they started setting up proteam houses theyve been improving at a much faster rate than us, their understanding/execution of the game is just evolving much faster than us and sadly if were not able to have to same type of infrastructure(which i dont see happening anytime soon) that the koreans have were just gonna end up falling behind even more Thanks TT1 for giving us your honest opinion and I do agree with you. If Western Pros don't step up the skill gap will only get bigger and bigger and we will have a BW situation again. theres only so much individual players can do, need $$$/sponsorship support bro Well it comes down to the dedication of the player. If Mr. Yong asks Jaedong to practice 100 games for an upcoming match he's gonna do it and not complain. If you look at other players (not gonna call anyone but you know who practices and who doesn't regularly) that participate in star2 tournaments I don't believe for 10 seconds they do that or would unless put under the spotlight. that's slave labor. No one wants to go back to how it was in broodwar and the koreans are specifically trying to avoid that kind of regiment.
I disagree with calling it slave labor. Some games require more time spent to master. Star 2 you can go to univ and still make a living. You still need to practice though and the more the better.
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On May 22 2011 02:14 Tanatos wrote: Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S." I think the majority of viewers dont really care if they are entertained by "99% skill players" or by "95% skill players"; in fact a game between supposedly lesser players can be more entertaining(*1) and there seems to be a significant difference between the Korean and non-Korean styles. Koreans seem to practice more precision and fixed build orders, while non-Koreans seem to be more able to adjust on the fly. To me the second style is more attractive as several GSL finals have shown a weakness in the attractiveness of the Korean style.
The lack of preparation for a specific opponent is shown each time in the GSTL, but since the "super tournament" is another long and drawn out Korean tournament it will probably end up with a lot of boring games which are all shown nevertheless. The 'arc' for such a tournament is much too long to keep the tension from start to finish and GOM should add more shorter tournaments which last a day or two only since they already have the long GSL seasons. Try to make a Korean MLG and you might get foreigners into the tournament!
(*1) Super specific preparation might lead to a "build order loss" like we have seen in the last GSL finals and "lesser players" are prone to make mistakes which can still be neutralized by a brief resurgence of brilliance.
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On May 22 2011 13:54 Azarkon wrote: The time commitment is almost certainly the main reason, along with lack of free travel. Foreigners in other games like WC 3, CS, and DOTA go regularly to tournaments all across Europe, and to China, Korea, Malaysia, etc. when invited. But for SC 2 they don't seem to be interested. The difference between WC 3, CS, and DOTA tournaments and the GSL, including the GSL Super Tournament, is that they're not month-long, but week-long, or in some cases weekend-long affairs, and travel expenses are usually paid by the organizers.
It's quite obvious when comparing foreigners' response to the GSL WC and the actual GSL leagues what the reason for the rejections is. What's not obvious is what the GSL organizers intend to do about it, if anything. WC3, CS and Dota's popularity weren't focused in Korea and isn't exactly part of their culture.
A lot of focus and prizemoney has been pumped into Starcraft (and SC2 to an extent) in Korea. Perhaps if the SC2 Korean scene declines like the WC3, we'll see the top Koreans get international sponsorships (like how Lyn, Moon, the others got sponsorships from MYM and SK) and then participate in more foreign tournaments... But at the moment, the Korean scene seems to be rather healthy with the expansion of the team league and the influx of sponsors to the new Korean teams. There's no real incentive or funds to go overseas for the Korean players anyway.
I'm not entirely sure, but I'm pretty sure that before the Korean WC3 leagues started declining in popularity, most of the tournaments between the top War3 pros of Europe and Korea/China were online in high latency environments (aside from big WCGs and ESWCs).
As for Dota, I believe not until maybe 2 or 3 years ago did the Chinese and Asian teams start owning in LANs as most of the LANs were based in Europe before that and most tournaments were online anyway. Prior to that it had always been European teams dominating.
EDIT: TL;DR - The Korean Starcraft (and eSports) culture is to make their tournaments broadcasted leagues similar to real sports tournaments rather than a LAN over a couple of days. They tried to use the same model for WC3, but failed because of its lost of popularity and the foreigner scene outgrew it... Expecting SC2 to follow suit is kind of like hoping the Korean televised SC2 scene dies. But we can still wait and see how GomTV decides to adjust to accommodate foreigners and expand the Korean SC2 scene at the same time.
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Considering TT1 has experience firsthand. There is some truth in what he says. However, Subversion made a good point. When speaking, it is best to stick to your personal experience(s).
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How many tournaments are there in Korea?
How many tournaments are there in Europe?
It's an easy decision of where to stay.
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On May 22 2011 14:37 Serpico wrote: that's slave labor. No one wants to go back to how it was in broodwar and the koreans are specifically trying to avoid that kind of regiment.
What you call slave labor, others see as hard work. The best will continue to put the work in.
There is a very damn good reason why Flash and Jaedong are still leading the charge in BW.
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On May 22 2011 14:46 puttputt wrote: How many tournaments are there in Korea?
How many tournaments are there in Europe?
It's an easy decision of where to stay. Looking at the last tournament roundup on TL only 5 guys made more money than the 16 guys that didn't make it out of the Code S group stages.
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does anyone else know why NASL is working? even with the amount of players they have and also the amount of games they play? it lasts quite a long time, and that's possible because people can play the matches online in one big country, all across the nation. Korea is a small country that is pretty damn far from both NA and EU, even people in SEA would probably have huge travel expenses.
It's just not feasible to play in GSL right now unlike the World Tournament which lasted less than a week, where as normal seasons of GSL are about a month long. That's a TON of time to be in a foreign country for just playing one tournament, I mean I'm sure there are plenty of online korean tournaments but just the living expenses alone would be tough.
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On May 22 2011 14:31 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:15 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players Again, you keep speaking for everyone and making these sweeping statements. I really think you need to stop pretending you're the mouthpiece of the foreign community and speak for yourself. I really think a lot of foreigners who haven't even been to Korea, e.g. TSL3 finalists Naniwa and Thorzain, would not say that they can "never win consistently vs the top players". Being a pro player doesn't let you speak for everyone. The only person you can speak for is yourself, period. im not being a mouthpiece im just being honest, if you want to live in ur lil fictitious fairy land then be my guest
You say you're "just being honest" but what you're spouting is your opinion and nothing more. You don't have tournament results to back this up. The few times we have seen some of our top foreigners go up against Koreans, they're performed very well.
What evidence do you have to back your claims? You say I'm in a "fictitious fairy land" while you're the one sitting up there on some high horse making claims about other players abilities, which you have no right to do, nor any real basis on which to do that.
Being a pro player doesn't exempt you from actually having to make a good argument. We're not just going to take everything you say as gospel when all actual evidence is contradictory to what you're saying.
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On May 22 2011 14:48 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:37 Serpico wrote: that's slave labor. No one wants to go back to how it was in broodwar and the koreans are specifically trying to avoid that kind of regiment. What you call slave labor, others see as hard work. The best will continue to put the work in. There is a very damn good reason why Flash and Jaedong are still leading the charge in BW. Yes, I'm sure you could run a sweatshop and call it "hard work" if you wanted as well. Flash and Jaedong happen to be two of the most talented players in the world, it's not like they practice 20 hours a day and everyone else 10. Practicing 12 hours instead of 10 isn't going to get you to the top, eventually you hit diminishing returns and your practice is counter productive because of fatigue.
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On May 22 2011 14:53 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:31 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:15 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players Again, you keep speaking for everyone and making these sweeping statements. I really think you need to stop pretending you're the mouthpiece of the foreign community and speak for yourself. I really think a lot of foreigners who haven't even been to Korea, e.g. TSL3 finalists Naniwa and Thorzain, would not say that they can "never win consistently vs the top players". Being a pro player doesn't let you speak for everyone. The only person you can speak for is yourself, period. im not being a mouthpiece im just being honest, if you want to live in ur lil fictitious fairy land then be my guest You say you're "just being honest" but what you're spouting is your opinion and nothing more. You don't have tournament results to back this up. The few times we have seen some of our top foreigners go up against Koreans, they're performed very well. What evidence do you have to back your claims? You say I'm in a "fictitious fairy land" while you're the one sitting up there on some high horse making claims about other players abilities, which you have no right to do, nor any real basis on which to do that. Being a pro player doesn't exempt you from actually having to make a good argument. We're not just going to take everything you say as gospel when all actual evidence is contradictory to what you're saying.
but wouldnt i have more credibility than you? if nony were to make the exact same statements that i just made would you have believed him?
also you say i have no tournament results but you should take a closer look at this list: http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./
my evidence is my word, and your evidence is based off of 1 tournament(tsl where the only foreigner who was competitive vs the koreans was thorzain)competitive , were both kinda turning in circles so ill give u the win
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That's your opinion bud, grand. Too bad it doesn't mean much to them.
We're not just talking about practice hours. They have talent. I'll give you that, but there is a lot more to it, lmao.
As long as their heads are in the game, I don't see anyone dethroning them anytime soon in dominance (BW wise).
TT, his problem lies in the fact you are putting words in other people's mouths. I'm sure he wouldn't have a prob if you just stuck to your own guns.
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The world of starcraft esports has changed. Korea is no longer the must go to place for a progamer. There are opportunities in esports which exist outside of Korea. So much so that going to Korea is actually sometimes a bad decision for progamers.
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On May 22 2011 14:48 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:37 Serpico wrote: that's slave labor. No one wants to go back to how it was in broodwar and the koreans are specifically trying to avoid that kind of regiment. What you call slave labor, others see as hard work. The best will continue to put the work in. There is a very damn good reason why Flash and Jaedong are still leading the charge in BW.
And that reason is called money.
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On May 22 2011 14:53 emc wrote: does anyone else know why NASL is working? even with the amount of players they have and also the amount of games they play? it lasts quite a long time, and that's possible because people can play the matches online in one big country, all across the nation. Korea is a small country that is pretty damn far from both NA and EU, even people in SEA would probably have huge travel expenses.
It's just not feasible to play in GSL right now unlike the World Tournament which lasted less than a week, where as normal seasons of GSL are about a month long. That's a TON of time to be in a foreign country for just playing one tournament, I mean I'm sure there are plenty of online korean tournaments but just the living expenses alone would be tough. 1. We don't even know if the NASL is working. 2. NASL takes place online with latency issues and Koreans have to actually wake up early in the morning (past 12am to play). 3. The GSL and NASL aren't really good products to compare with each other.
The problem is that Koreans like their esports to be broadcasted live in a similar format to that of sporting tournaments (ie you don't see the FIFA World Cup take place within 2-3 days do you?), where playing and practicing Starcraft is actually a sustainable day job (note I only mention Starcraft. We're yet to see if SC2 can be as sustainable as SC1 for the players).
This conflicts with the western esports model of online competition (often neglecting higher latency countries in Asia) and weekend LANs, where playing and practicing Starcraft might be a well-paying job, but one which might not be so secure and sustainable (except for a few).
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On May 22 2011 14:53 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:48 StarStruck wrote:On May 22 2011 14:37 Serpico wrote: that's slave labor. No one wants to go back to how it was in broodwar and the koreans are specifically trying to avoid that kind of regiment. What you call slave labor, others see as hard work. The best will continue to put the work in. There is a very damn good reason why Flash and Jaedong are still leading the charge in BW. Yes, I'm sure you could run a sweatshop and call it "hard work" if you wanted as well. Flash and Jaedong happen to be two of the most talented players in the world, it's not like they practice 20 hours a day and everyone else 10. Practicing 12 hours instead of 10 isn't going to get you to the top, eventually you hit diminishing returns and your practice is counter productive because of fatigue.
Reminds me of a quote from idra "I don't know why people make a big deal over stamina. I've never had a problem sitting down and playing a game all day, and if you do you have problems."
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On May 22 2011 10:28 TT1 wrote: tt i wish i could have found the edit button, i hope someone ends up translating my post lol Edited out im retarded
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On May 22 2011 15:08 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 10:28 TT1 wrote: tt i wish i could have found the edit button, i hope someone ends up translating my post lol Why did you post that, koreans are just going to think we are dumb considering the amount of wrong information on there. with the new schedule change and the fact that if you win MLG you get a direct seed into code a, it brings up points that are irrelevant now. Winning MLG (after collumbus) is code S
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Well, there is a valid reason why Jinro and HuK wanted to stay in Korea. As they even said themselves in interviews, they want to be the best and they believe the practice environment in Korea will provide that for them. Jinro certainly had that spurt in MLG Dallas and consecutive top 4 finishes in GSLs. If you asked me prior, I would have never predicted that. I've known the guy for a very long time and I would have never thought that was imaginable, but he proved me wrong. Would have been nice if HayprO proved me wrong as well.
With that said, there are a lot more opportunities outside of Korea but in terms of practice... I'm still under the belief that as long as you have good communication and good practice partners in Korea, their culture will pay dividends. This will only happen if you immerse yourself in the culture and you take a prolonged stay. Several foreigners went down for BW and couldn't break the lineups and in many scenarios, came back after several months. Every player is different. It could take months to anyone's guess.
On May 22 2011 15:04 NPHarris wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:48 StarStruck wrote:On May 22 2011 14:37 Serpico wrote: that's slave labor. No one wants to go back to how it was in broodwar and the koreans are specifically trying to avoid that kind of regiment. What you call slave labor, others see as hard work. The best will continue to put the work in. There is a very damn good reason why Flash and Jaedong are still leading the charge in BW. And that reason is called money.
Way to miss my point.
Money is an incentive. (I already mentioned this earlier as being the main reason why foreigners are passing on the GOM tournaments. Financially it doesn't make sense; but, this is an entirely different point).
With regards to Flash and Jae, you don't become an overnight success. Sure, they have been making good money over the last few years, but it wasn't always like that. I wasn't talking about their money situation, but that is still a good point albeit a fairly obvious one which leads me to say that wasn't the point I was making at all. They have certain qualities other players lack other than talent, which are fairly obvious too.
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On May 22 2011 15:08 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 10:28 TT1 wrote: tt i wish i could have found the edit button, i hope someone ends up translating my post lol Why did you post that, koreans are just going to think we are dumb considering the amount of wrong information on there. with the new schedule change and the fact that if you win MLG you get a direct seed into code a, it brings up points that are irrelevant now.
what wrong information? dont just fucking write a blank statement give me some sort of proof
that post was mainly to explain why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, what would you know about that? the rest of my post talks about my time spent in korea
out of that WHOLE post i think 2 lines amounted to me talking about koreans being better than foreigners and that was mostly just to be polite(but it is true) and fucking subversion blows it up into a shitfest
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On May 22 2011 15:08 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 10:28 TT1 wrote: tt i wish i could have found the edit button, i hope someone ends up translating my post lol Why did you post that, koreans are just going to think we are dumb considering the amount of wrong information on there. with the new schedule change and the fact that if you win MLG you get a direct seed into code a, it brings up points that are irrelevant now.
he's talking about the super tournament, not the GSL seasons
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On May 22 2011 14:52 pieman819 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:46 puttputt wrote: How many tournaments are there in Korea?
How many tournaments are there in Europe?
It's an easy decision of where to stay. Looking at the last tournament roundup on TL only 5 guys made more money than the 16 guys that didn't make it out of the Code S group stages. and thats those 5 guys that were ahead were only because big tournaments were going on at the time, that is not going to happen every month. And still 5 guys is nothing considering that the people they are ahead of are the bottom of the barrel in code s. aside from thorzain anyone who made it past the round of 8 in korea made more money. Plus if you look at the top earner for starcraft in the past 4 months, top 10 or even 15 are gonna be korean before you will even see a foreigner. People are pretty ignorant aside from 2 tournaments in the west that dont equal even as much as 1 gsl overall (nasl happens over the course of 2 and a half gsl's and IPL has about 1/3rd of the prize pool of 1 gsl) the money is still in korea. Smaller online tournaments amount to nothing most are for 100-500 dollars with a 1000 - 2000 dollar one popping up once a month or so, and koreans play in the bigger ones such as the FXO tournaments so i dont see why a foreigner in korea wouldnt play in those and then some others. The FXO tournaments are played on NA and i beleive that every single one has been won by a korean. So regardless of weather your in korea or not your still not gonna get the top prize at any of these tournaments. And what are the chances of someone winning ALOT of these small online cups even if you win 3 in a month wich is pretty fucking rare you arent even probably gonna make as much as someone who didnt make it out of the round of 32 in code s.
Sigh. i dont know how many more times im gonna have to explain this lol
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On May 22 2011 14:42 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 13:54 Azarkon wrote: The time commitment is almost certainly the main reason, along with lack of free travel. Foreigners in other games like WC 3, CS, and DOTA go regularly to tournaments all across Europe, and to China, Korea, Malaysia, etc. when invited. But for SC 2 they don't seem to be interested. The difference between WC 3, CS, and DOTA tournaments and the GSL, including the GSL Super Tournament, is that they're not month-long, but week-long, or in some cases weekend-long affairs, and travel expenses are usually paid by the organizers.
It's quite obvious when comparing foreigners' response to the GSL WC and the actual GSL leagues what the reason for the rejections is. What's not obvious is what the GSL organizers intend to do about it, if anything. WC3, CS and Dota's popularity weren't focused in Korea and isn't exactly part of their culture. A lot of focus and prizemoney has been pumped into Starcraft (and SC2 to an extent) in Korea. Perhaps if the SC2 Korean scene declines like the WC3, we'll see the top Koreans get international sponsorships (like how Lyn, Moon, the others got sponsorships from MYM and SK) and then participate in more foreign tournaments... But at the moment, the Korean scene seems to be rather healthy with the expansion of the team league and the influx of sponsors to the new Korean teams. There's no real incentive or funds to go overseas for the Korean players anyway. I'm not entirely sure, but I'm pretty sure that before the Korean WC3 leagues started declining in popularity, most of the tournaments between the top War3 pros of Europe and Korea/China were online in high latency environments (aside from big WCGs and ESWCs). As for Dota, I believe not until maybe 2 or 3 years ago did the Chinese and Asian teams start owning in LANs as most of the LANs were based in Europe before that and most tournaments were online anyway. Prior to that it had always been European teams dominating. EDIT: TL;DR - The Korean Starcraft (and eSports) culture is to make their tournaments broadcasted leagues similar to real sports tournaments rather than a LAN over a couple of days. They tried to use the same model for WC3, but failed because of its lost of popularity and the foreigner scene outgrew it... Expecting SC2 to follow suit is kind of like hoping the Korean televised SC2 scene dies. But we can still wait and see how GomTV decides to adjust to accommodate foreigners and expand the Korean SC2 scene at the same time.
The big difference is that GOMTV really needs the foreign market since they only have about two years before the re-compete is up. I seriously doubt that they can go head-to-head with KeSPA / MBCGames without the foreign support.
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On May 22 2011 15:12 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 15:08 cheesemaster wrote:On May 22 2011 10:28 TT1 wrote: tt i wish i could have found the edit button, i hope someone ends up translating my post lol Why did you post that, koreans are just going to think we are dumb considering the amount of wrong information on there. with the new schedule change and the fact that if you win MLG you get a direct seed into code a, it brings up points that are irrelevant now. what wrong information? dont just fucking write a blank statement give me some sort of proof that post was mainly to explain why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, what would you know about that? the rest of my post talks about my time spent in korea Ooops i thought you quoted the problems in korea post. Your and xeris's realy names are pretty close if im not mistaken
Totally my bad, man i should stop posting im too tired.
Again sorry my bad.
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seriously TT1 you dont even understand why were a little angry? your message to GOM was as if you were the acting representative of the entire foreign community and then start spewing your opinions which FXO (im guessing thats a managers account) disagreed with a few posts down. We arnt just being "haters" and if it were liquidtyler i still would be angry if he worded it the same way for that reason
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On May 22 2011 15:23 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 15:12 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 15:08 cheesemaster wrote:On May 22 2011 10:28 TT1 wrote: tt i wish i could have found the edit button, i hope someone ends up translating my post lol Why did you post that, koreans are just going to think we are dumb considering the amount of wrong information on there. with the new schedule change and the fact that if you win MLG you get a direct seed into code a, it brings up points that are irrelevant now. what wrong information? dont just fucking write a blank statement give me some sort of proof that post was mainly to explain why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, what would you know about that? the rest of my post talks about my time spent in korea Ooops i thought you quoted the problems in korea post. Your and xeris's realy names are pretty close if im not mistaken Totally my bad, man i should stop posting im too tired. Again sorry my bad.
no biggie
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Hilarious that ppl argue with TT1. It's like telling a fisher hes fishing wrong when you have no experience yourself.
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On May 22 2011 14:53 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:31 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:15 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players Again, you keep speaking for everyone and making these sweeping statements. I really think you need to stop pretending you're the mouthpiece of the foreign community and speak for yourself. I really think a lot of foreigners who haven't even been to Korea, e.g. TSL3 finalists Naniwa and Thorzain, would not say that they can "never win consistently vs the top players". Being a pro player doesn't let you speak for everyone. The only person you can speak for is yourself, period. im not being a mouthpiece im just being honest, if you want to live in ur lil fictitious fairy land then be my guest You say you're "just being honest" but what you're spouting is your opinion and nothing more. You don't have tournament results to back this up. The few times we have seen some of our top foreigners go up against Koreans, they're performed very well. What evidence do you have to back your claims? You say I'm in a "fictitious fairy land" while you're the one sitting up there on some high horse making claims about other players abilities, which you have no right to do, nor any real basis on which to do that. Being a pro player doesn't exempt you from actually having to make a good argument. We're not just going to take everything you say as gospel when all actual evidence is contradictory to what you're saying.
IEM 3 of the top 4 were Korean, korean won
Stockholm invitiational Korean won
Copenhagen Korean won
You guys really need to stop putting so much emphasis on online tournaments, they still beat foreigners during live events when the conditions are fair.
Also, every GSL was won by a Korean. Just wait until MLG and you'll see that TT1 speaks the truth.
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On May 22 2011 15:23 Dawski wrote: seriously TT1 you dont even understand why were a little angry? your message to GOM was as if you were the acting representative of the entire foreign community and then start spewing your opinions which FXO (im guessing thats a managers account) disagreed with a few posts down. We arnt just being "haters" and if it were liquidtyler i still would be angry if he worded it the same way for that reason
DUDE WHAT I SAID HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU, i explained why all the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invite and i then started talking about random shit going on in the korean scene and i thanked a few people.. what does any of this have to do with you?
are you that offended over when i said "until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,"?
i seriously have no clue what offended you in my post
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On May 22 2011 14:52 pieman819 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:46 puttputt wrote: How many tournaments are there in Korea?
How many tournaments are there in Europe?
It's an easy decision of where to stay. Looking at the last tournament roundup on TL only 5 guys made more money than the 16 guys that didn't make it out of the Code S group stages. Making money from tournament results is only one side of the medal. Your sponsors will get more exposure if you compete more often and they might not even be interested in the Korean market.
Another side is that you also have expenses to pay if you "move to Korea" and you are living away from your family / friends and bunched up in bunk beds with loads of others under conditions which you might have found fun as a school kid, but which dont work out when you are older. Sure you might earn a few hundred dollars more, but there is a price tag attached which cant always be named.
GOM just needs to host shorter tournaments and needs to break away from the "every game gets shown" format.
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On May 22 2011 15:24 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 15:23 cheesemaster wrote:On May 22 2011 15:12 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 15:08 cheesemaster wrote:On May 22 2011 10:28 TT1 wrote: tt i wish i could have found the edit button, i hope someone ends up translating my post lol Why did you post that, koreans are just going to think we are dumb considering the amount of wrong information on there. with the new schedule change and the fact that if you win MLG you get a direct seed into code a, it brings up points that are irrelevant now. what wrong information? dont just fucking write a blank statement give me some sort of proof that post was mainly to explain why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, what would you know about that? the rest of my post talks about my time spent in korea Ooops i thought you quoted the problems in korea post. Your and xeris's realy names are pretty close if im not mistaken Totally my bad, man i should stop posting im too tired. Again sorry my bad. no biggie I actually totally agree with you in terms of the skill gap between foreigners and koreans right now and unless things start to change in the west it will only get bigger. I dont think anyone should go to korea unless they seriously think they can compete with the best or have some insane practice regiment at home already that would let them keep up with koreans. It doesnt seem plausible that foreigners who probably on average practice between 4-8 hours a day (obviously there are some exceptions) would beable to keep up with korean pro gaming houses with their rigid schedules and close to 12 hours a day of mandatory practice.
I also agree that the super tournament doesnt really make sense for foreigners but i think that the top 4 at MLG have a great opportunity if they think they are skilled enough, an all expenses paid trip to korea where you get 5 days to participate in code a and by then you will know if you are in the up and down matches doesnt seem like such a huge commitment.
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Lots of foreign fans complain and criticize about such news, and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.' Also the manager of team Fnatic complained that "the invitaion of Super Tournament from GomTV came out in rush."
PlayXP was able to hear opinion of Chae Jung Won, the head of Manage team in GomTV (also main caster of GSL), during presentation of new format change of GSL in May 19th. Mr. Chae said, "We gave the same amount of warning time as we did with World Championship. I do not understand the reason of rejection since they were able to participate in World Championship."
except that the WC was only a week long event, whereas the ST is a full month. 3 weeks isn't reallt a feasible amount of time to pick up and move for a month in most cases across the world.
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On May 22 2011 14:58 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:53 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 14:31 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:15 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players Again, you keep speaking for everyone and making these sweeping statements. I really think you need to stop pretending you're the mouthpiece of the foreign community and speak for yourself. I really think a lot of foreigners who haven't even been to Korea, e.g. TSL3 finalists Naniwa and Thorzain, would not say that they can "never win consistently vs the top players". Being a pro player doesn't let you speak for everyone. The only person you can speak for is yourself, period. im not being a mouthpiece im just being honest, if you want to live in ur lil fictitious fairy land then be my guest You say you're "just being honest" but what you're spouting is your opinion and nothing more. You don't have tournament results to back this up. The few times we have seen some of our top foreigners go up against Koreans, they're performed very well. What evidence do you have to back your claims? You say I'm in a "fictitious fairy land" while you're the one sitting up there on some high horse making claims about other players abilities, which you have no right to do, nor any real basis on which to do that. Being a pro player doesn't exempt you from actually having to make a good argument. We're not just going to take everything you say as gospel when all actual evidence is contradictory to what you're saying. but wouldnt i have more credibility than you? if nony were to make the exact same statements that i just made would you have believed him? also you say i have no tournament results but you should take a closer look at this list: http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./my evidence is my word, and your evidence is based off of 1 tournament(tsl where the only foreigner who was competitive vs the koreans was thorzain)competitive , were both kinda turning in circles so ill give u the win
Hey man look, I like you and I have no problem with you. I like Nony too, lol. I don't think you're like this uncredible person in the community or anything, as a progamer I value your opinions and insights, and you're rather vocal and I often agree with the things you say.
I just can't help getting defensive of our players, and I guess I have a fair measure of "Western pride" if you can call it that. I just think there's this perception that these Koreans are these godlike players and while I think it was true in BW, I don't really think its applying in SC2. It's not just the TSL, its NASL and also even GSL, including the World Championships (where you yourself held your own!).
I just think we need to stand up and say bring it Koreans, we can take you on and we can win. And I feel like this is true. The Korean forum translations we always see are of Koreans acting as if they're really superior and blaming stuff like latency and other extraneous crap on every loss to a foreigner. I just think we need to be proud and confident, and not say "yes, we know you're better than us..." and reinforce that belief.
Anyways I do apologise if I sounded aggressive, I guess its just a touchy subject for me. Starcraft nationalism or something, hehe. I wish you the best of luck in the future
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People will bitch and moan about whatever the heck they want. Whether there is any substance to it is debatable. If they put no effort into it and lack good argument. Best to ignore it.
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On May 22 2011 15:31 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:58 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:53 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 14:31 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:15 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players Again, you keep speaking for everyone and making these sweeping statements. I really think you need to stop pretending you're the mouthpiece of the foreign community and speak for yourself. I really think a lot of foreigners who haven't even been to Korea, e.g. TSL3 finalists Naniwa and Thorzain, would not say that they can "never win consistently vs the top players". Being a pro player doesn't let you speak for everyone. The only person you can speak for is yourself, period. im not being a mouthpiece im just being honest, if you want to live in ur lil fictitious fairy land then be my guest You say you're "just being honest" but what you're spouting is your opinion and nothing more. You don't have tournament results to back this up. The few times we have seen some of our top foreigners go up against Koreans, they're performed very well. What evidence do you have to back your claims? You say I'm in a "fictitious fairy land" while you're the one sitting up there on some high horse making claims about other players abilities, which you have no right to do, nor any real basis on which to do that. Being a pro player doesn't exempt you from actually having to make a good argument. We're not just going to take everything you say as gospel when all actual evidence is contradictory to what you're saying. but wouldnt i have more credibility than you? if nony were to make the exact same statements that i just made would you have believed him? also you say i have no tournament results but you should take a closer look at this list: http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./my evidence is my word, and your evidence is based off of 1 tournament(tsl where the only foreigner who was competitive vs the koreans was thorzain)competitive , were both kinda turning in circles so ill give u the win Hey man look, I like you and I have no problem with you. I like Nony too, lol. I don't think you're like this uncredible person in the community or anything, as a progamer I value your opinions and insights, and you're rather vocal and I often agree with the things you say. I just can't help getting defensive of our players, and I guess I have a fair measure of "Western pride" if you can call it that. I just think there's this perception that these Koreans are these godlike players and while I think it was true in BW, I don't really think its applying in SC2. It's not just the TSL, its NASL and also even GSL, including the World Championships (where you yourself held your own!). I just think we need to stand up and say bring it Koreans, we can take you on and we can win. And I feel like this is true. The Korean forum translations we always see are of Koreans acting as if they're really superior and blaming stuff like latency and other extraneous crap on every loss to a foreigner. I just think we need to be proud and confident, and not say "yes, we know you're better than us..." and reinforce that belief. Anyways I do apologise if I sounded aggressive, I guess its just a touchy subject for me. Starcraft nationalism or something, hehe. I wish you the best of luck in the future 
na im sorry too i always take everything way too personally, im sure that every foreigner shares the same sentiments as you.. including me but i was only trying to speak honestly and most of the time when that happens i come off as being over-agressive, sorry about that<3
LOL its hilarious how many times i paused my prison break episode just to come on tl so i could hit the refresh button endlessly, kinda reminded me of the old tl days where id get into flamewars with idra and we would both sit on the thread hitting f5 every second... AAAHHH good times
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On May 22 2011 15:31 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:58 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:53 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 14:31 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:15 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players Again, you keep speaking for everyone and making these sweeping statements. I really think you need to stop pretending you're the mouthpiece of the foreign community and speak for yourself. I really think a lot of foreigners who haven't even been to Korea, e.g. TSL3 finalists Naniwa and Thorzain, would not say that they can "never win consistently vs the top players". Being a pro player doesn't let you speak for everyone. The only person you can speak for is yourself, period. im not being a mouthpiece im just being honest, if you want to live in ur lil fictitious fairy land then be my guest You say you're "just being honest" but what you're spouting is your opinion and nothing more. You don't have tournament results to back this up. The few times we have seen some of our top foreigners go up against Koreans, they're performed very well. What evidence do you have to back your claims? You say I'm in a "fictitious fairy land" while you're the one sitting up there on some high horse making claims about other players abilities, which you have no right to do, nor any real basis on which to do that. Being a pro player doesn't exempt you from actually having to make a good argument. We're not just going to take everything you say as gospel when all actual evidence is contradictory to what you're saying. but wouldnt i have more credibility than you? if nony were to make the exact same statements that i just made would you have believed him? also you say i have no tournament results but you should take a closer look at this list: http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./my evidence is my word, and your evidence is based off of 1 tournament(tsl where the only foreigner who was competitive vs the koreans was thorzain)competitive , were both kinda turning in circles so ill give u the win Hey man look, I like you and I have no problem with you. I like Nony too, lol. I don't think you're like this uncredible person in the community or anything, as a progamer I value your opinions and insights, and you're rather vocal and I often agree with the things you say. I just can't help getting defensive of our players, and I guess I have a fair measure of "Western pride" if you can call it that. I just think there's this perception that these Koreans are these godlike players and while I think it was true in BW, I don't really think its applying in SC2. It's not just the TSL, its NASL and also even GSL, including the World Championships (where you yourself held your own!). I just think we need to stand up and say bring it Koreans, we can take you on and we can win. And I feel like this is true. The Korean forum translations we always see are of Koreans acting as if they're really superior and blaming stuff like latency and other extraneous crap on every loss to a foreigner. I just think we need to be proud and confident, and not say "yes, we know you're better than us..." and reinforce that belief. Anyways I do apologise if I sounded aggressive, I guess its just a touchy subject for me. Starcraft nationalism or something, hehe. I wish you the best of luck in the future  Where do you see koreans acting superior and blaming lag? From the korean nitizen reactions for the TSL i heard them dissing their own players for lack of skill and praising some of the foreigners that did well, i hardly heard (if any) mentions of them blaming lag. Also the korean pro gamers have been very vocal about wanting to compete with more foreigners and alot of them have said they were suprised at how good the foreigners were and they dont really see as huge of a skill gap as they thought. MC can be a bit cocky about it at times but overall i think the response to foreigners if very good in korea.
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well its easy. give a little bit less to code S winner. and give more money to all cose A. then foreigners will be able to play in code A. participating in code A is a waste of time and money.
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Its pretty simple. Its a joke to spend that much time for such little benefit. Almost no screen time for your sponsors/team, and the only way of making real money is making like top 8 of Code S? There are plenty of Non-Koreans who can consistently compete in the GSL, all of our big names could. But why would they give up 2+ months of there life after spending thousands, and at the same time giving up every other competition? Literally the only positive result would be getting top 2 or 3. Even being the best player in the world you simply can't expect to do that.
Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Its not like every foreigner is shaking in fear, its just not smart to go to Korea.
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On May 22 2011 15:28 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:52 pieman819 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:46 puttputt wrote: How many tournaments are there in Korea?
How many tournaments are there in Europe?
It's an easy decision of where to stay. Looking at the last tournament roundup on TL only 5 guys made more money than the 16 guys that didn't make it out of the Code S group stages. Making money from tournament results is only one side of the medal. Your sponsors will get more exposure if you compete more often and they might not even be interested in the Korean market. Another side is that you also have expenses to pay if you "move to Korea" and you are living away from your family / friends and bunched up in bunk beds with loads of others under conditions which you might have found fun as a school kid, but which dont work out when you are older. Sure you might earn a few hundred dollars more, but there is a price tag attached which cant always be named. GOM just needs to host shorter tournaments and needs to break away from the "every game gets shown" format. Gom pays the way of those who will be going from MLG winnings, I'm fairly sure they have accomodated most foreigners in the gom house aswell even when they made their own way over like Carn and Moonglade. Most of the complaints have been about the winnings and that was what I was addressing. Also I would assume that the exposure of being on GSL would be larger for a sponsor than being in a half dozen weekly cups, you do realise there is a stream that caters to non Koreans right? and it is hugely popular? targeting the Korean market has minimal influence, I doubt The Little App Factory has a huge Korean presence because Team liquid is in GSL.
The personal issues is player to player but my post was directed at something entirely different.
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On May 22 2011 12:21 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:14 FXOpen wrote: Gom gave approximately 2-3 weeks to get players to Korea for super tournament. It simply wasn't going to happen. but everyone got a 2-3 week heads up(not saying its right, its definitely something that gomtv needs to work on) for the world championships aswell, why is it that everyone managed to attend that and no one accepted their invitation to the super tournament?
Sheth was invited to World championship... It simply wasn't going to happen .... 2-3 weeks is not a good enough notice. If it involves costs, it magnifies them by .5.... So again, its logistically stupid to give people less than 4 weeks to arrange travel.
It makes things that little bit more expensive, and the likely reward usually isn't as much as the cost. Its the same reason that I wouldn't send all my international players to MLG, because it costs 2.5-3.5k to get there and the odds to go through open brackets and win are low (naniwa is the exception). If people want to get players to their tournaments they have to make it logistically feasible. Or help out financially in some way.
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On May 22 2011 15:41 gregnog wrote: Its pretty simple. Its a joke to spend that much time for such little benefit. Almost no screen time for your sponsors/team, and the only way of making real money is making like top 8 of Code S? There are plenty of Non-Koreans who can consistently compete in the GSL, all of our big names could. But why would they give up 2+ months of there life after spending thousands, and at the same time giving up every other competition? Literally the only positive result would be getting top 2 or 3. Even being the best player in the world you simply can't expect to do that.
Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Its not like every foreigner is shaking in fear, its just not smart to go to Korea.
Why are people like you still not reading the thread where it is explained over an over that even if you lose all your code S group games you get the same money as 4th place MLG.
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2228 Posts
On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this.
I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs.
Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner.
Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea.
But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for.
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I think we can all thank Mr. Chae and GOM for their efforts in trying to get more foreign talent. I am sure the fan wants to see it too. However, truth is that for foreign players, missing easier, more lucrative foreign tournaments is a huge opportunity cost. Spending 1 month in Korea to play in a tournament where the costs are high and the chances of victory are low is just simply a huge risk.
I appreciate GOM's efforts, but I think I speak for most of us to say that even if the GSL only had Koreans, we'd still watch it. It will still be the premier league showcasing the most elite talent. Honestly, GOM should just focus on Korea or maybe start looking into partnerships with the growing E-sports scenes in Taiwan/China. Many leagues/teams have attempted to bridge the gap between Korea and the West, but it's becoming impossible and most likely not worth the effort.
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On May 22 2011 15:55 JYN wrote: I think we can all thank Mr. Chae and GOM for their efforts in trying to get more foreign talent. I am sure the fan wants to see it too. However, truth is that for foreign players, missing easier, more lucrative foreign tournaments is a huge opportunity cost. Spending 1 month in Korea to play in a tournament where the costs are high and the chances of victory are low is just simply a huge risk.
I appreciate GOM's efforts, but I think I speak for most of us to say that even if the GSL only had Koreans, we'd still watch it. It will still be the premier league showcasing the most elite talent. Honestly, GOM should just focus on Korea or maybe start looking into partnerships with the growing E-sports scenes in Taiwan/China. Many leagues/teams have attempted to bridge the gap between Korea and the West, but it's becoming impossible and most likely not worth the effort.
i dunno about that. i think GOM is in a unique position with SC2 and i like that they're trying to make the bridge to the West.
a huge move that i dont think will happen would be for GOM to host another World Tournament in the US or EU. bring the giant prize pool to us, rather than luring our best foreigners to Korea to play in Code S. have the invites favor foreigners who have given Code S a chance, in interest of making SC2 more global.
the GSL-MLG connection is a cool first step though, and i'm excited to see what plays out from it.
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On May 22 2011 15:34 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 15:31 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 14:58 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:53 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 14:31 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:15 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players Again, you keep speaking for everyone and making these sweeping statements. I really think you need to stop pretending you're the mouthpiece of the foreign community and speak for yourself. I really think a lot of foreigners who haven't even been to Korea, e.g. TSL3 finalists Naniwa and Thorzain, would not say that they can "never win consistently vs the top players". Being a pro player doesn't let you speak for everyone. The only person you can speak for is yourself, period. im not being a mouthpiece im just being honest, if you want to live in ur lil fictitious fairy land then be my guest You say you're "just being honest" but what you're spouting is your opinion and nothing more. You don't have tournament results to back this up. The few times we have seen some of our top foreigners go up against Koreans, they're performed very well. What evidence do you have to back your claims? You say I'm in a "fictitious fairy land" while you're the one sitting up there on some high horse making claims about other players abilities, which you have no right to do, nor any real basis on which to do that. Being a pro player doesn't exempt you from actually having to make a good argument. We're not just going to take everything you say as gospel when all actual evidence is contradictory to what you're saying. but wouldnt i have more credibility than you? if nony were to make the exact same statements that i just made would you have believed him? also you say i have no tournament results but you should take a closer look at this list: http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./my evidence is my word, and your evidence is based off of 1 tournament(tsl where the only foreigner who was competitive vs the koreans was thorzain)competitive , were both kinda turning in circles so ill give u the win Hey man look, I like you and I have no problem with you. I like Nony too, lol. I don't think you're like this uncredible person in the community or anything, as a progamer I value your opinions and insights, and you're rather vocal and I often agree with the things you say. I just can't help getting defensive of our players, and I guess I have a fair measure of "Western pride" if you can call it that. I just think there's this perception that these Koreans are these godlike players and while I think it was true in BW, I don't really think its applying in SC2. It's not just the TSL, its NASL and also even GSL, including the World Championships (where you yourself held your own!). I just think we need to stand up and say bring it Koreans, we can take you on and we can win. And I feel like this is true. The Korean forum translations we always see are of Koreans acting as if they're really superior and blaming stuff like latency and other extraneous crap on every loss to a foreigner. I just think we need to be proud and confident, and not say "yes, we know you're better than us..." and reinforce that belief. Anyways I do apologise if I sounded aggressive, I guess its just a touchy subject for me. Starcraft nationalism or something, hehe. I wish you the best of luck in the future  na im sorry too i always take everything way too personally, im sure that every foreigner shares the same sentiments as you.. including me but i was only trying to speak honestly and most of the time when that happens i come off as being over-agressive, sorry about that<3 LOL its hilarious how many times i paused my prison break episode just to come on tl so i could hit the refresh button endlessly, kinda reminded me of the old tl days where id get into flamewars with idra and we would both sit on the thread hitting f5 every second... AAAHHH good times
haha yeah, I get all like riled up and into and spam F5, then I start feeling bad 'cause I generally hate arguing with anyone, lol. <3
Also, you're STILL watching prison break? That show was awesome like 5 years ago dude :D
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On May 22 2011 16:04 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 15:34 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 15:31 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 14:58 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:53 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 14:31 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:15 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players Again, you keep speaking for everyone and making these sweeping statements. I really think you need to stop pretending you're the mouthpiece of the foreign community and speak for yourself. I really think a lot of foreigners who haven't even been to Korea, e.g. TSL3 finalists Naniwa and Thorzain, would not say that they can "never win consistently vs the top players". Being a pro player doesn't let you speak for everyone. The only person you can speak for is yourself, period. im not being a mouthpiece im just being honest, if you want to live in ur lil fictitious fairy land then be my guest You say you're "just being honest" but what you're spouting is your opinion and nothing more. You don't have tournament results to back this up. The few times we have seen some of our top foreigners go up against Koreans, they're performed very well. What evidence do you have to back your claims? You say I'm in a "fictitious fairy land" while you're the one sitting up there on some high horse making claims about other players abilities, which you have no right to do, nor any real basis on which to do that. Being a pro player doesn't exempt you from actually having to make a good argument. We're not just going to take everything you say as gospel when all actual evidence is contradictory to what you're saying. but wouldnt i have more credibility than you? if nony were to make the exact same statements that i just made would you have believed him? also you say i have no tournament results but you should take a closer look at this list: http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./my evidence is my word, and your evidence is based off of 1 tournament(tsl where the only foreigner who was competitive vs the koreans was thorzain)competitive , were both kinda turning in circles so ill give u the win Hey man look, I like you and I have no problem with you. I like Nony too, lol. I don't think you're like this uncredible person in the community or anything, as a progamer I value your opinions and insights, and you're rather vocal and I often agree with the things you say. I just can't help getting defensive of our players, and I guess I have a fair measure of "Western pride" if you can call it that. I just think there's this perception that these Koreans are these godlike players and while I think it was true in BW, I don't really think its applying in SC2. It's not just the TSL, its NASL and also even GSL, including the World Championships (where you yourself held your own!). I just think we need to stand up and say bring it Koreans, we can take you on and we can win. And I feel like this is true. The Korean forum translations we always see are of Koreans acting as if they're really superior and blaming stuff like latency and other extraneous crap on every loss to a foreigner. I just think we need to be proud and confident, and not say "yes, we know you're better than us..." and reinforce that belief. Anyways I do apologise if I sounded aggressive, I guess its just a touchy subject for me. Starcraft nationalism or something, hehe. I wish you the best of luck in the future  na im sorry too i always take everything way too personally, im sure that every foreigner shares the same sentiments as you.. including me but i was only trying to speak honestly and most of the time when that happens i come off as being over-agressive, sorry about that<3 LOL its hilarious how many times i paused my prison break episode just to come on tl so i could hit the refresh button endlessly, kinda reminded me of the old tl days where id get into flamewars with idra and we would both sit on the thread hitting f5 every second... AAAHHH good times haha yeah, I get all like riled up and into and spam F5, then I start feeling bad 'cause I generally hate arguing with anyone, lol. <3 Also, you're STILL watching prison break? That show was awesome like 5 years ago dude :D
i started watching season 1 yesterday, im up to episode 12
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On May 22 2011 15:06 pdd wrote: The problem is that Koreans like their esports to be broadcasted live in a similar format to that of sporting tournaments (ie you don't see the FIFA World Cup take place within 2-3 days do you?), where playing and practicing Starcraft is actually a sustainable day job (note I only mention Starcraft. We're yet to see if SC2 can be as sustainable as SC1 for the players). Starcraft 2 is NOT as physically taxing as playing a 90 / 120 minute game of football, thus it is totally legit to have tournaments with more than one game per player each day.
All the games in a world cup are shown - at least here in germany they are - but there are still games played at the same time during the group stages, so you can only watch one of them live and have to be satisfied with replays of the other one, so I dont think the "all games must be played live and one after the other" is a format which must be used. GOM and Korea really need smaller tournaments where "unknown" players get a chance to shine and the GSL is a slow competition which doesnt give us many results for a statistical analysis.
They could have "16 player tournaments" where the precise matchups are drawn right before the games are played and all the games are played over a weekend. Invite some foreigners to these and you wont be rejected as much IMO. Just take a big spoon and stir up all the rigid Korean ways of doing things and you might get better acceptance from foreign pros.
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On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for.
Yea this. Idra is the best NA player by a mile and the highest he got after 4 seasons was R016. We've seen players like Sen, Ret, and Haypro knocked out early, and we saw the foreigners dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament. If you're a foreigner that wants to become a better player than you've ever been before, go to Korea. If you want to make 'guranteed' money, you can play in a lot of European/NA tournaments.
But if you are a foreigner who knows you have what it takes to consistently place high, RO16+, you will make more than any foreigner. But, sadly, I think there aren't too many foreigners who think they can do that. Perhaps Naniwa has the confidence.
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On May 22 2011 16:10 oo inflame oo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for. Yea this. Idra is the best NA player by a mile and the highest he got after 4 seasons was R016. We've seen players like Sen, Ret, and Haypro knocked out early, and we saw the foreigners dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament. If you're a foreigner that wants to become a better player than you've ever been before, go to Korea. If you want to make 'guranteed' money, you can play in a lot of European/NA tournaments. But if you are a foreigner who knows you have what it takes to consistently place high, RO16+, you will make more than any foreigner. But, sadly, I think there aren't too many foreigners who think they can do that. Perhaps Naniwa has the confidence. Idra made top 8 and was defeated by Jinro another foreigner and I'll say it for the 10th time in the last five pages losing in GSL round of 32 groups = same money as 4th at MLG. The consistant "gauranteed" money is in GSL as long as you can stay in code S.
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yeah the problem is not because they need foreigners, its because GOM is hogging all the possibilities of other tournaments happening.
How come we never hear of a 'weekend' cup in korea where they can compete for fun and lulz and also win $50 or more. The reason for the lack of foreigners in korea is because why bother trying to get to ro8 to make huge money when you can enter so much more competitions in NA/EU and still get enough cash. Not to mention providing coaching lessons and whatnot.
I feel that GOM wants to tap into the foreigner scene by bringing foreigners in but how does that help? They can do so much more for the korean scene by atleast having more competitions instead of 1 exclusive GSL where 64 of the best players in korea compete. What about the others who have a super hard time in code A but are very very good (DRG and Bomber?).
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On May 22 2011 16:14 xza wrote: yeah the problem is not because they need foreigners, its because GOM is hogging all the possibilities of other tournaments happening.
How come we never hear of a 'weekend' cup in korea where they can compete for fun and lulz and also win $50 or more. The reason for the lack of foreigners in korea is because why bother trying to get to ro8 to make huge money when you can enter so much more competitions in NA/EU and still get enough cash. Not to mention providing coaching lessons and whatnot.
I feel that GOM wants to tap into the foreigner scene by bringing foreigners in but how does that help? They can do so much more for the korean scene by atleast having more competitions instead of 1 exclusive GSL where 64 of the best players in korea compete. What about the others who have a super hard time in code A but are very very good (DRG and Bomber?). There was a Korean Koth the last week for $300, the FXOpen online tourneys have all had large korean participation, CSN battle of the houses had a little but of cash given out at each event iirc.
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On May 22 2011 16:10 oo inflame oo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for. Yea this. Idra is the best NA player by a mile and the highest he got after 4 seasons was R016. We've seen players like Sen, Ret, and Haypro knocked out early, and we saw the foreigners dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament. If you're a foreigner that wants to become a better player than you've ever been before, go to Korea. If you want to make 'guranteed' money, you can play in a lot of European/NA tournaments. But if you are a foreigner who knows you have what it takes to consistently place high, RO16+, you will make more than any foreigner. But, sadly, I think there aren't too many foreigners who think they can do that. Perhaps Naniwa has the confidence. The IdrA of now - when compared to other players - is far better than the IdrA of then. I think he got pretty lucky making Ro16 (you say 16 but wasn't it 8?). However, if he were to compete now then I would expect him to make Ro4 at least.
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On May 22 2011 02:29 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +Mr. Chae also spoke about his opinion on providing code S spot for foreign players. "I don't think GSL is same level as MLG. I believe foreign fans also think same as me. There is notable difference between the seed for Koreans to MLG Championship and the seed for foreigners to GSL code S Are we really saying that Inca is more skillful than say naniwa? Code S is being VERY disappointing for Mr. GOMTV to make such a statement. Also considering that koreans dropped like flies in the Chinese Gigabyte tournament, their bragging rights is down the drain. inca's pvz is horrible, everyone knows that. however, his pvt and pvp are good, as he steamrolled the competition getting to the finals.
i wouldnt be surprised if inca beats naniwa and other top protoss and terran, and perhaps lose to top foreign zerg like idra, sen, dimaga
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The prize pool is just way too low. It just doesn't pay off. The competition is much harder and eve if you make it far you don't get very much - and that for wasting a month of time. The foreginer scene just has grown bigger than the korean scene, that's it. I think in the future more and more koreans will come over to europe/america rather than staying in korea as it is now.
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On May 22 2011 16:25 decaf wrote: The prize pool is just way too low. It just doesn't pay off. The competition is much harder and eve if you make it far you don't get very much - and that for wasting a month of time. The foreginer scene just has grown bigger than the korean scene, that's it. I think in the future more and more koreans will come over to europe/america rather than staying in korea as it is now.
http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./
doesn't look like the prize pool is low to me.
16 of the top 25 tournament earners are Korean ><
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On May 22 2011 15:16 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 14:52 pieman819 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:46 puttputt wrote: How many tournaments are there in Korea?
How many tournaments are there in Europe?
It's an easy decision of where to stay. Looking at the last tournament roundup on TL only 5 guys made more money than the 16 guys that didn't make it out of the Code S group stages. and thats those 5 guys that were ahead were only because big tournaments were going on at the time, that is not going to happen every month. And still 5 guys is nothing considering that the people they are ahead of are the bottom of the barrel in code s. aside from thorzain anyone who made it past the round of 8 in korea made more money. Plus if you look at the top earner for starcraft in the past 4 months, top 10 or even 15 are gonna be korean before you will even see a foreigner. People are pretty ignorant aside from 2 tournaments in the west that dont equal even as much as 1 gsl overall (nasl happens over the course of 2 and a half gsl's and IPL has about 1/3rd of the prize pool of 1 gsl) the money is still in korea. Smaller online tournaments amount to nothing most are for 100-500 dollars with a 1000 - 2000 dollar one popping up once a month or so, and koreans play in the bigger ones such as the FXO tournaments so i dont see why a foreigner in korea wouldnt play in those and then some others. The FXO tournaments are played on NA and i beleive that every single one has been won by a korean. So regardless of weather your in korea or not your still not gonna get the top prize at any of these tournaments. And what are the chances of someone winning ALOT of these small online cups even if you win 3 in a month wich is pretty fucking rare you arent even probably gonna make as much as someone who didnt make it out of the round of 32 in code s. Sigh. i dont know how many more times im gonna have to explain this lol
This ... The only reason i see why foreigners are not attending the biggest SC2 tournament to date is the fact that they themselves don't believe they can win it or make it high up there or in other words compete with koreans . You can fly back for MLG or other big lan if you want to . You can play NASL , lag and uncomfortable playing hours doesn't seem to stop the StarTale team from tearing up appart the foreigners . So you can still compete in NA server based online events .
I don't see a reason why a player who is sponsored by a team doesn't want to compete in the biggest SC 2 tournament up to date without qualifiers or anything . Gom has provided you a house to stay there , so you are basicaly only have to pay for the food and from what i heard food isn't to expensive in korea .There is the question " Well what about my girlfriend ? " , just bring her over with you .
People are saying that you can't find good practise partners in korea ... You have the korean ladder the most competitive of all the ladders . You can get in touch with Jinro and Huk to get practise from the OGS-TL team , you can get in touch with Torch and have access to the StarTale team . Hell i don't think even if you walked out there to the IM house and ask for help practising for the Super Tournament i'm sure as hell that they won't reject you .
Koreans fly for a 1 - 2 day 10 + k lan . I am sure as hell that if there ever is a 100k over a month lan tournament outside of korea and koreans where invited or qualified for it . They will not just accept the offer , but will fly out in swarms for it . And that is because they are not cheapskates , they believe in their abilities and frankly they'll consider it as easy money to be made and that is a lot of money .
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On May 22 2011 16:25 decaf wrote: The prize pool is just way too low. It just doesn't pay off. The competition is much harder and eve if you make it far you don't get very much - and that for wasting a month of time. The foreginer scene just has grown bigger than the korean scene, that's it. I think in the future more and more koreans will come over to europe/america rather than staying in korea as it is now.
No. Starcraft 2 has not even entered the mainstream yet in Korea. In two or three years when the license agreement between KeSPA and Blizzard expires, players are going to switch over to SC2 and there will be a major boom. Can you honestly see a majority of North American gamers even caring about Starcraft 2 three years in the future when Diablo 3 or the next super great graphics FPS comes out?
I understand that is an economic decision for foreigners to not go to Korea to play a tournament in which they are unlikely to win. However, the skill gap is going to only get wider as the years go on. This happened before with Starcraft 1. In the early years of SCBW, there were definitely foreigner players who could compete at the highest levels and a few even went to Korea to play. It's fine that the players are making decisions that benefit themselves; you can't blame anyone for that. But, 5 years down the road, let's not make 300 threads asking why the skill gap between Korean and foreigner players got so big.
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On May 22 2011 12:21 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:14 FXOpen wrote: Gom gave approximately 2-3 weeks to get players to Korea for super tournament. It simply wasn't going to happen. but everyone got a 2-3 week heads up(not saying its right, its definitely something that gomtv needs to work on) for the world championships aswell, why is it that everyone managed to attend that and no one accepted their invitation to the super tournament?
Because as was stated by pros, by tt1, etc... THAT time they paid for the flight! That is a very significant difference.
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On May 22 2011 16:13 pieman819 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 16:10 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for. Yea this. Idra is the best NA player by a mile and the highest he got after 4 seasons was R016. We've seen players like Sen, Ret, and Haypro knocked out early, and we saw the foreigners dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament. If you're a foreigner that wants to become a better player than you've ever been before, go to Korea. If you want to make 'guranteed' money, you can play in a lot of European/NA tournaments. But if you are a foreigner who knows you have what it takes to consistently place high, RO16+, you will make more than any foreigner. But, sadly, I think there aren't too many foreigners who think they can do that. Perhaps Naniwa has the confidence. Idra made top 8 and was defeated by Jinro another foreigner and I'll say it for the 10th time in the last five pages losing in GSL round of 32 groups = same money as 4th at MLG. The consistant "gauranteed" money is in GSL as long as you can stay in code S.
It's not all about money. I know WhiteRa has a job and I'm sure it's difficult to find time off for a whole month for a not-so-sure-thing while his magazine thing is.
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On May 22 2011 16:10 oo inflame oo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for. Yea this. Idra is the best NA player by a mile and the highest he got after 4 seasons was R016. We've seen players like Sen, Ret, and Haypro knocked out early, and we saw the foreigners dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament. If you're a foreigner that wants to become a better player than you've ever been before, go to Korea. If you want to make 'guranteed' money, you can play in a lot of European/NA tournaments. But if you are a foreigner who knows you have what it takes to consistently place high, RO16+, you will make more than any foreigner. But, sadly, I think there aren't too many foreigners who think they can do that. Perhaps Naniwa has the confidence. foreigners dominated in korea v world? the winners league was 8-7.
idra ro16? get your facts straight.
if a player has the ability to constantly make ro16+ each tourny, they would make SO much more money outside of korea. When the blizz/gomtv contract ends in 2 years, then we will perhaps see more money in korea
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On May 22 2011 16:51 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 16:13 pieman819 wrote:On May 22 2011 16:10 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for. Yea this. Idra is the best NA player by a mile and the highest he got after 4 seasons was R016. We've seen players like Sen, Ret, and Haypro knocked out early, and we saw the foreigners dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament. If you're a foreigner that wants to become a better player than you've ever been before, go to Korea. If you want to make 'guranteed' money, you can play in a lot of European/NA tournaments. But if you are a foreigner who knows you have what it takes to consistently place high, RO16+, you will make more than any foreigner. But, sadly, I think there aren't too many foreigners who think they can do that. Perhaps Naniwa has the confidence. Idra made top 8 and was defeated by Jinro another foreigner and I'll say it for the 10th time in the last five pages losing in GSL round of 32 groups = same money as 4th at MLG. The consistant "gauranteed" money is in GSL as long as you can stay in code S. It's not all about money. I know WhiteRa has a job and I'm sure it's difficult to find time off for a whole month for a not-so-sure-thing while his magazine thing is. Yes but I was responding to somone talking about the money, you are the second person to bring this up. It is common sense that not everyone has the same personal conditions and other factors affect whether or not they can go but again that has nothing to do with my post responding to somone talking about the money differences. Please read the posts people are responding to and not just there posts, the amount of repetition in this thread is insane.
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On May 22 2011 16:42 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 16:25 decaf wrote: The prize pool is just way too low. It just doesn't pay off. The competition is much harder and eve if you make it far you don't get very much - and that for wasting a month of time. The foreginer scene just has grown bigger than the korean scene, that's it. I think in the future more and more koreans will come over to europe/america rather than staying in korea as it is now. No. Starcraft 2 has not even entered the mainstream yet in Korea. In two or three years when the license agreement between KeSPA and Blizzard expires, players are going to switch over to SC2 and there will be a major boom. Can you honestly see a majority of North American gamers even caring about Starcraft 2 three years in the future when Diablo 3 or the next super great graphics FPS comes out? I understand that is an economic decision for foreigners to not go to Korea to play a tournament in which they are unlikely to win. However, the skill gap is going to only get wider as the years go on. This happened before with Starcraft 1. In the early years of SCBW, there were definitely foreigner players who could compete at the highest levels and a few even went to Korea to play. It's fine that the players are making decisions that benefit themselves; you can't blame anyone for that. But, 5 years down the road, let's not make 300 threads asking why the skill gap between Korean and foreigner players got so big.
3 years from today I'll still play starcraft maybe not as much depending on how busy i am but i enjoy rts too much to quit for rpg.
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Can't the foreign SC2 teams each just send their best player? This is so they can test their chances agains the koreans. If they lose then they wouldn't have lost a lot of money but if they advance it will be very worth it. Why send the whole team if they are not confident they would advance to higher rounds? Just my 2 cents.
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On May 22 2011 16:07 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 16:04 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 15:34 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 15:31 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 14:58 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:53 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 14:31 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:15 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players Again, you keep speaking for everyone and making these sweeping statements. I really think you need to stop pretending you're the mouthpiece of the foreign community and speak for yourself. I really think a lot of foreigners who haven't even been to Korea, e.g. TSL3 finalists Naniwa and Thorzain, would not say that they can "never win consistently vs the top players". Being a pro player doesn't let you speak for everyone. The only person you can speak for is yourself, period. im not being a mouthpiece im just being honest, if you want to live in ur lil fictitious fairy land then be my guest You say you're "just being honest" but what you're spouting is your opinion and nothing more. You don't have tournament results to back this up. The few times we have seen some of our top foreigners go up against Koreans, they're performed very well. What evidence do you have to back your claims? You say I'm in a "fictitious fairy land" while you're the one sitting up there on some high horse making claims about other players abilities, which you have no right to do, nor any real basis on which to do that. Being a pro player doesn't exempt you from actually having to make a good argument. We're not just going to take everything you say as gospel when all actual evidence is contradictory to what you're saying. but wouldnt i have more credibility than you? if nony were to make the exact same statements that i just made would you have believed him? also you say i have no tournament results but you should take a closer look at this list: http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./my evidence is my word, and your evidence is based off of 1 tournament(tsl where the only foreigner who was competitive vs the koreans was thorzain)competitive , were both kinda turning in circles so ill give u the win Hey man look, I like you and I have no problem with you. I like Nony too, lol. I don't think you're like this uncredible person in the community or anything, as a progamer I value your opinions and insights, and you're rather vocal and I often agree with the things you say. I just can't help getting defensive of our players, and I guess I have a fair measure of "Western pride" if you can call it that. I just think there's this perception that these Koreans are these godlike players and while I think it was true in BW, I don't really think its applying in SC2. It's not just the TSL, its NASL and also even GSL, including the World Championships (where you yourself held your own!). I just think we need to stand up and say bring it Koreans, we can take you on and we can win. And I feel like this is true. The Korean forum translations we always see are of Koreans acting as if they're really superior and blaming stuff like latency and other extraneous crap on every loss to a foreigner. I just think we need to be proud and confident, and not say "yes, we know you're better than us..." and reinforce that belief. Anyways I do apologise if I sounded aggressive, I guess its just a touchy subject for me. Starcraft nationalism or something, hehe. I wish you the best of luck in the future  na im sorry too i always take everything way too personally, im sure that every foreigner shares the same sentiments as you.. including me but i was only trying to speak honestly and most of the time when that happens i come off as being over-agressive, sorry about that<3 LOL its hilarious how many times i paused my prison break episode just to come on tl so i could hit the refresh button endlessly, kinda reminded me of the old tl days where id get into flamewars with idra and we would both sit on the thread hitting f5 every second... AAAHHH good times haha yeah, I get all like riled up and into and spam F5, then I start feeling bad 'cause I generally hate arguing with anyone, lol. <3 Also, you're STILL watching prison break? That show was awesome like 5 years ago dude :D i started watching season 1 yesterday, im up to episode 12
season 1 was the best, dont watch more than 3 season
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On May 22 2011 16:10 oo inflame oo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for. and we saw the foreigners dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament.
what? only TT1 and DIMAGA made it to the RO8, and both lost there. 6 of the top 8 were Korean and all 4 of the final 4 were Korean. how is that foreigner domination?
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korea is not like flying to a european/US city to play a tournament either -
the culture is waaaay different, noone speaks english. it's fair to expect that 99% of foreigners would be out of their comfort zone and therefore wouldn't play to their best ability. it's pointless for them to enter.
it would be similar to playing in MLG with no clothes on.
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Srsly gamers these days lack dedication. I still remember back in early years of wc3, foreigners would fly to korea for months to have a chace to improve,even knowing that guaranteed being roflstomped ( they were). SK in 2003,4Kings in 2004, tons of others in 2005 for WEG ( tourney last 3 months each). In the end it paid off greatly as Insomnia and Grubby won WCG. Now that the condition and prize are so much better,I cant really understand all the excuses.
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On May 22 2011 17:18 Arceus wrote: Srsly gamers these days lack dedication. I still remember back in early years of wc3, foreigners would fly to korea for months to have a chace to improve,even knowing that guaranteed being roflstomped ( they were). SK in 2003,4Kings in 2004, tons of others in 2005 for WEG ( tourney last 3 months each). In the end it paid off greatly as Insomnia and Grubby won WCG. Now that the condition and prize are so much better,I cant really understand all the excuses. Because they can be very successful while staying at home.
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On May 22 2011 17:17 shizna wrote: korea is not like flying to a european/US city to play a tournament either -
the culture is waaaay different, noone speaks english. it's fair to expect that 99% of foreigners would be out of their comfort zone and therefore wouldn't play to their best ability. it's pointless for them to enter.
I don't think the language/cultural barrier is really as much of an issue as the fact that a foreigner goes at the GSL kind of by him/herself while Koreans pros get the benefit of team organizations that have been refined over the BW years and converted over to SC2. This issue is out of GOM's control but I still think a pro who can fall back on regular partners for advice and practice will beat out (on average) another pro who can only really ladder by themselves.
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On May 22 2011 12:46 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:31 BackSideAttack wrote:Don't listen to the haters TT1. I really respect your maturity in admitting that there is a skill gap between foreigners and Koreans right now. I hope that you can continue to improve your play and someday go compete in GSL again. You have yourself a new fan  the problem is for every new fan i make myself 10 antifans : D
You have a talent for making Anti-fans, bravo.
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On May 22 2011 17:15 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 16:10 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for. and we saw the foreigners dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament. what? only TT1 and DIMAGA made it to the RO8, and both lost there. 6 of the top 8 were Korean and all 4 of the final 4 were Korean. how is that foreigner domination?
Perhaps, if you were literate you'd know that dominated is an adjective meaning destroyed or crushed.
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I think a lot of the problem is that Korea has really 1 big tournament or organization. This means that when an invitation is rejected it is like night and day for them. The European and American scenes have many different tournaments including online cups that can be competed in to supplement an income. Also they say that by winning on match you go up to 900 USD, is this near the travel expenses. Basically they are acting surprised that 'foreigners' don't want to come to their tournament when there seems to be very little incentive.
What it comes down to is that just because you think you have this huge prestige advantage doesn't mean that reality doesn't matter. It is a waste of time for players to travel a great distance for a slim shot at winning a smaller prize rather than diversify and make more money at home. If you think your players are so superior anyway and there is such a skill gap then why should you care if foreigners come over because they are bad. It doesn't make any sense.
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Such a ludicrous statement, there are many factors at hand. Living expenses, environment, team issues, family and so on. Like the post on the first page, they might be living in Korea for more than 3 weeks and that's the main thing. I don't think the foreign scene is in such low standard as "GSL". I mean MLG was way better than GSL this season in terms of games and such. Living in Korea will also cost you participating in other tournaments and also having different timezones as your team mates. Idra played on the ladder a lot when he was in Korea and lacking practice partners to help you in such a big tournament is a big loss.
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On May 22 2011 17:19 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 17:18 Arceus wrote: Srsly gamers these days lack dedication. I still remember back in early years of wc3, foreigners would fly to korea for months to have a chace to improve,even knowing that guaranteed being roflstomped ( they were). SK in 2003,4Kings in 2004, tons of others in 2005 for WEG ( tourney last 3 months each). In the end it paid off greatly as Insomnia and Grubby won WCG. Now that the condition and prize are so much better,I cant really understand all the excuses. Because they can be very successful while staying at home.
the problem is, the best players are still at korea. So if foreigners aren't willing to rain with the best even if it means more hassle and less money, korea is going to get further ahead and eventually just stomp the competition like they do in bw
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On May 22 2011 17:27 oo inflame oo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 17:15 eggs wrote:On May 22 2011 16:10 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for. and we saw the foreigners dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament. what? only TT1 and DIMAGA made it to the RO8, and both lost there. 6 of the top 8 were Korean and all 4 of the final 4 were Korean. how is that foreigner domination? Perhaps, if you were literate you'd know that dominated is an adjective meaning destroyed or crushed.
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On May 22 2011 17:39 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 17:19 jmbthirteen wrote:On May 22 2011 17:18 Arceus wrote: Srsly gamers these days lack dedication. I still remember back in early years of wc3, foreigners would fly to korea for months to have a chace to improve,even knowing that guaranteed being roflstomped ( they were). SK in 2003,4Kings in 2004, tons of others in 2005 for WEG ( tourney last 3 months each). In the end it paid off greatly as Insomnia and Grubby won WCG. Now that the condition and prize are so much better,I cant really understand all the excuses. Because they can be very successful while staying at home. the problem is, the best players are still at korea. So if foreigners aren't willing to rain with the best even if it means more hassle and less money, korea is going to get further ahead and eventually just stomp the competition like they do in bw It's becoming pretty apparent from the responses in the thread that that is at most a secondary concern. If you can make as much money as a decent Korean Pro while playing at a diamond skill level, why wouldn't you? There's no incentive to improve until the Koreans start invading the foreign scene and winning most the tournaments.
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On May 22 2011 17:42 BackSideAttack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 17:27 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 17:15 eggs wrote:On May 22 2011 16:10 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for. and we saw the foreigners dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament. what? only TT1 and DIMAGA made it to the RO8, and both lost there. 6 of the top 8 were Korean and all 4 of the final 4 were Korean. how is that foreigner domination? Perhaps, if you were literate you'd know that dominated is an adjective meaning destroyed or crushed. His comment fully implies that he is literate...You, I'm not quite sure about. Nope, the way it is used in that sentance is to state that the foreigners were the ones that were dominated. If it had been "and we saw the foreigners dominate in the Korea vs the world tournament" it would work they way you are thinking.
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On May 22 2011 17:46 pieman819 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 17:42 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 17:27 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 17:15 eggs wrote:On May 22 2011 16:10 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for. and we saw the foreigners dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament. what? only TT1 and DIMAGA made it to the RO8, and both lost there. 6 of the top 8 were Korean and all 4 of the final 4 were Korean. how is that foreigner domination? Perhaps, if you were literate you'd know that dominated is an adjective meaning destroyed or crushed. His comment fully implies that he is literate...You, I'm not quite sure about. Nope, the way it is used in that sentance is to state that the foreigners were the ones that were dominated. If it had been "and we saw the foreigners dominate in the Korea vs the world tournament" it would work they way you are thinking.
Yeah my bad lol....I read that too fast.
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On May 22 2011 17:46 pieman819 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 17:42 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 17:27 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 17:15 eggs wrote:On May 22 2011 16:10 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for. and we saw the foreigners dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament. what? only TT1 and DIMAGA made it to the RO8, and both lost there. 6 of the top 8 were Korean and all 4 of the final 4 were Korean. how is that foreigner domination? Perhaps, if you were literate you'd know that dominated is an adjective meaning destroyed or crushed. His comment fully implies that he is literate...You, I'm not quite sure about. Nope, the way it is used in that sentance is to state that the foreigners were the ones that were dominated. If it had been "and we saw the foreigners dominate in the Korea vs the world tournament" it would work they way you are thinking.
oh, i must've misunderstood it that way. i would've said "and we saw the foreigners WERE dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament" to make that point. inflame's wording can be taken both ways -_-
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On May 22 2011 15:50 pieman819 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 15:41 gregnog wrote: Its pretty simple. Its a joke to spend that much time for such little benefit. Almost no screen time for your sponsors/team, and the only way of making real money is making like top 8 of Code S? There are plenty of Non-Koreans who can consistently compete in the GSL, all of our big names could. But why would they give up 2+ months of there life after spending thousands, and at the same time giving up every other competition? Literally the only positive result would be getting top 2 or 3. Even being the best player in the world you simply can't expect to do that.
Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Its not like every foreigner is shaking in fear, its just not smart to go to Korea. Why are people like you still not reading the thread where it is explained over an over that even if you lose all your code S group games you get the same money as 4th place MLG.
MLG 1 Weekend of expenses and loss of other competitions
GSL If seeded into S- 1 month of expenses and loss of other competitions If seeded into A- 2 months of expenses and loss of other competitions
It's simple math. Unless your name is MC/MVP/Nestea, its not economical or logical to compete in Korea. Even more so on the sponsor side of pro gaming. Do you think your sponsor cares about you getting some kind of tiny prize as your consolation for losing your Code S games? Its about marketing.
W/e though, all this has been said
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Idra, Huk, and Jinro are all Code S people that have won MLG, I think it is unfair to say to MLG winners could not be seeded into Code S. Some one like Nawina could considered a very good runner for a Code S spot if he got a chance to go to Korea. I can't remember who else won MLG but I think it would only prove my point more.
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On May 22 2011 17:58 gregnog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 15:50 pieman819 wrote:On May 22 2011 15:41 gregnog wrote: Its pretty simple. Its a joke to spend that much time for such little benefit. Almost no screen time for your sponsors/team, and the only way of making real money is making like top 8 of Code S? There are plenty of Non-Koreans who can consistently compete in the GSL, all of our big names could. But why would they give up 2+ months of there life after spending thousands, and at the same time giving up every other competition? Literally the only positive result would be getting top 2 or 3. Even being the best player in the world you simply can't expect to do that.
Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Its not like every foreigner is shaking in fear, its just not smart to go to Korea. Why are people like you still not reading the thread where it is explained over an over that even if you lose all your code S group games you get the same money as 4th place MLG. MLG 1 Weekend of expenses and loss of other competitions GSL If seeded into S- 1 month of expenses and loss of other competitions If seeded into A- 2 months of expenses and loss of other competitions It's simple math. Unless your name is MC/MVP/Nestea, its not economical or logical to compete in Korea. Even more so on the sponsor side of pro gaming. Do you think your sponsor cares about you getting some kind of tiny prize as your consolation for losing your Code S games? Its about marketing.
1 month assumes you're making it to the Finals, in which case you're winning a LOT more money. it only takes 1 day to lose in the RO32, <1 week to lose in the RO16.
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On May 22 2011 17:58 gregnog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 15:50 pieman819 wrote:On May 22 2011 15:41 gregnog wrote: Its pretty simple. Its a joke to spend that much time for such little benefit. Almost no screen time for your sponsors/team, and the only way of making real money is making like top 8 of Code S? There are plenty of Non-Koreans who can consistently compete in the GSL, all of our big names could. But why would they give up 2+ months of there life after spending thousands, and at the same time giving up every other competition? Literally the only positive result would be getting top 2 or 3. Even being the best player in the world you simply can't expect to do that.
Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Its not like every foreigner is shaking in fear, its just not smart to go to Korea. Why are people like you still not reading the thread where it is explained over an over that even if you lose all your code S group games you get the same money as 4th place MLG. MLG 1 Weekend of expenses and loss of other competitions GSL If seeded into S- 1 month of expenses and loss of other competitions If seeded into A- 2 months of expenses and loss of other competitions It's simple math. Unless your name is MC/MVP/Nestea, its not economical or logical to compete in Korea. Even more so on the sponsor side of pro gaming. Do you think your sponsor cares about you getting some kind of tiny prize as your consolation for losing your Code S games? Its about marketing. If you get seeded into them from MLG GOM Pays your flights and expenses.
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On May 22 2011 17:55 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 17:46 pieman819 wrote:On May 22 2011 17:42 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 17:27 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 17:15 eggs wrote:On May 22 2011 16:10 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for. and we saw the foreigners dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament. what? only TT1 and DIMAGA made it to the RO8, and both lost there. 6 of the top 8 were Korean and all 4 of the final 4 were Korean. how is that foreigner domination? Perhaps, if you were literate you'd know that dominated is an adjective meaning destroyed or crushed. His comment fully implies that he is literate...You, I'm not quite sure about. Nope, the way it is used in that sentance is to state that the foreigners were the ones that were dominated. If it had been "and we saw the foreigners dominate in the Korea vs the world tournament" it would work they way you are thinking. oh, i must've misunderstood it that way. i would've said "and we saw the foreigners WERE dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament" to make that point. inflame's wording can be taken both ways -_-
I'm assuming English isn't your native language, which is no biggie. Dominated is the past participle of dominate, so the 'were' is superfluous. If read correctly, the statement "and we saw the foreigners dominated" can only be taken one way.
Cheers
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On May 22 2011 18:01 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 17:58 gregnog wrote:On May 22 2011 15:50 pieman819 wrote:On May 22 2011 15:41 gregnog wrote: Its pretty simple. Its a joke to spend that much time for such little benefit. Almost no screen time for your sponsors/team, and the only way of making real money is making like top 8 of Code S? There are plenty of Non-Koreans who can consistently compete in the GSL, all of our big names could. But why would they give up 2+ months of there life after spending thousands, and at the same time giving up every other competition? Literally the only positive result would be getting top 2 or 3. Even being the best player in the world you simply can't expect to do that.
Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Its not like every foreigner is shaking in fear, its just not smart to go to Korea. Why are people like you still not reading the thread where it is explained over an over that even if you lose all your code S group games you get the same money as 4th place MLG. MLG 1 Weekend of expenses and loss of other competitions GSL If seeded into S- 1 month of expenses and loss of other competitions If seeded into A- 2 months of expenses and loss of other competitions It's simple math. Unless your name is MC/MVP/Nestea, its not economical or logical to compete in Korea. Even more so on the sponsor side of pro gaming. Do you think your sponsor cares about you getting some kind of tiny prize as your consolation for losing your Code S games? Its about marketing. 1 month assumes you're making it to the Finals, in which case you're winning a LOT more money. it only takes 1 day to lose in the RO32, <1 week to lose in the RO16. You only make "a LOT more money" in the finals of code S. Most of the spots offered by GOM to potential MLG top finishers are for code A ... which is kinda the "amateur league" when you look at the pay. Obviously no one will take that chance, because it means a lot of risk for a small reward and if you are good enough to qualify for a code S spot you have one month with "nothing to do" inbetweem GSL seasons. It simply isnt economic or practical to move back and forth that often, so Korea is unattractive and the reason is the long term tournaments. The "super tournament" is just a filler tournament between GSL seasons, but the scale and organization sucks.
Koreans may be - on average - better than non-Koreans, but the fact is that the "best of the rest" can still beat them. I would dearly love to see those top Koreans in a "LAN tournament" where they have to play tons of games against good players. MLG Columbus will be the first real test, although the arguments raised on SotG are valid as well and they shouldnt get the "royal treatment" they are getting now.
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On May 22 2011 18:06 oo inflame oo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 17:55 eggs wrote:On May 22 2011 17:46 pieman819 wrote:On May 22 2011 17:42 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 17:27 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 17:15 eggs wrote:On May 22 2011 16:10 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for. and we saw the foreigners dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament. what? only TT1 and DIMAGA made it to the RO8, and both lost there. 6 of the top 8 were Korean and all 4 of the final 4 were Korean. how is that foreigner domination? Perhaps, if you were literate you'd know that dominated is an adjective meaning destroyed or crushed. His comment fully implies that he is literate...You, I'm not quite sure about. Nope, the way it is used in that sentance is to state that the foreigners were the ones that were dominated. If it had been "and we saw the foreigners dominate in the Korea vs the world tournament" it would work they way you are thinking. oh, i must've misunderstood it that way. i would've said "and we saw the foreigners WERE dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament" to make that point. inflame's wording can be taken both ways -_- I'm assuming English isn't your native language, which is no biggie. Dominated is the past participle of dominate, so the 'were' is superfluous. If read correctly, the statement "and we saw the foreigners dominated" can only be taken one way. Cheers  You dominated
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On May 22 2011 18:21 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 18:01 eggs wrote:On May 22 2011 17:58 gregnog wrote:On May 22 2011 15:50 pieman819 wrote:On May 22 2011 15:41 gregnog wrote: Its pretty simple. Its a joke to spend that much time for such little benefit. Almost no screen time for your sponsors/team, and the only way of making real money is making like top 8 of Code S? There are plenty of Non-Koreans who can consistently compete in the GSL, all of our big names could. But why would they give up 2+ months of there life after spending thousands, and at the same time giving up every other competition? Literally the only positive result would be getting top 2 or 3. Even being the best player in the world you simply can't expect to do that.
Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Its not like every foreigner is shaking in fear, its just not smart to go to Korea. Why are people like you still not reading the thread where it is explained over an over that even if you lose all your code S group games you get the same money as 4th place MLG. MLG 1 Weekend of expenses and loss of other competitions GSL If seeded into S- 1 month of expenses and loss of other competitions If seeded into A- 2 months of expenses and loss of other competitions It's simple math. Unless your name is MC/MVP/Nestea, its not economical or logical to compete in Korea. Even more so on the sponsor side of pro gaming. Do you think your sponsor cares about you getting some kind of tiny prize as your consolation for losing your Code S games? Its about marketing. 1 month assumes you're making it to the Finals, in which case you're winning a LOT more money. it only takes 1 day to lose in the RO32, <1 week to lose in the RO16. You only make "a LOT more money" in the finals of code S. Most of the spots offered by GOM to potential MLG top finishers are for code A ... which is kinda the "amateur league" when you look at the pay. Obviously no one will take that chance, because it means a lot of risk for a small reward and if you are good enough to qualify for a code S spot you have one month with "nothing to do" inbetweem GSL seasons. It simply isnt economic or practical to move back and forth that often, so Korea is unattractive and the reason is the long term tournaments. The "super tournament" is just a filler tournament between GSL seasons, but the scale and organization sucks. Koreans may be - on average - better than non-Koreans, but the fact is that the "best of the rest" can still beat them. I would dearly love to see those top Koreans in a "LAN tournament" where they have to play tons of games against good players. MLG Columbus will be the first real test, although the arguments raised on SotG are valid as well and they shouldnt get the "royal treatment" they are getting now.
Winning MLG gives a free spot in Code S right? That is so much more of a privilege and reward than being in pool play, I'd say a Code A spot is too.
As aforementioned by TT1, the training you'd get from a month in Korea is invaluable. Why don't people focus on that aspect? Since when is being a pro gamer all about making money, instead of being the best you can be. Besides, going to Korea for a month will enable you to perform better and make more money when you come back to the states or Europe.
Look at idra and Jinro-- both trained in Korea and both won MLGs. Playing in Craft cups and the like is nice and all, but it can't be compared to experience one would gain from competing in the GSL and training with the best players.
And to touch on my first point, making into Code A is arguably harder than winning MLG, and making into Code S definitely is. The money may not be a lot more rewarding than staying and competing in your home country, but the implications and prestige of being in Code A / Code S definitely is.
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Can you blame them? Why would they leave Europe / NA and travel to South Korea to play the best of the best, decreasing their chances of winning.
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The idea that 2-3 weeks notice is too short is reasonable, same with it clashing with MLG and Dreamhack.
The message TT1 tries to send across however is truly pathetic, he really makes it sound like all foreigners feel inferior and are too afraid to step up to the challenge. I'm not saying he's wrong but if he's not I fear for the foreign SC2 scene, we'll be left behind(once again) but this time due to lack of dedication and a drive to compete. The big prize pools at MLG and Dreamhack will be out of reach for foreigners a year from now and not even the lag advantage at NASL will be enough when the gap gets big enough. SC2 may be popular and people will still get sponsors and make money off coaching etc. we won't be able to compete.
Our only hope lies with few individuals like Naniwa who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty and isn't in it for short term monetary gains but to be the best.
Then again perhaps TT1 isn't the elected spokesperson for the collective foreign Pro community and only speaks from his personal point of view.
As long as there are Naniwas there is hope.
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Everyone saying that the koreans will just make the gap bigger if people dont play in Korea are wrong.
The gap is closing very quickly these days, and thats due to the fact that its not the ability of players thats the difference, its the training behind the skill. In brood war, people did not practice as hard as the koreans. As has been seen lately the foreigners are training harder, longer and far more organised than during the brood war days.
Providing the current trend keeps going, then there will be limited/no gap sometime in the future. Korean culture is fun, but hard to adapt to. There is limited english in Korea, mostly due to shyness of the people than ability. And the food and what not is an acquired taste. Some people simply wont be able to adapt to Korea. Other than that the winters are terribly cold and its not the easiest place to get around.
I do love Seoul.. Its been good to me. But I can understand why people are very hesitant to go.
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On May 22 2011 18:28 oo inflame oo wrote: ... ... And to touch on my first point, making into Code A is arguably harder than winning MLG, and making into Code S definitely is. The money may not be a lot more rewarding than staying and competing in your home country, but the implications and prestige of being in Code A / Code S definitely is.
I sincerely doubt making it into code A is harder than winning a MLG. The only MLG winner who hasn't been in code S is Naniwa, and I don't think anyone would believe he'd have a hard time making code A. Into code S? That's harder to tell, but three of the four MLG winners made it there and the fourth one hasn't tried yet.
Edit: I don't think this guy's gonna be winning a MLG any time soon, but he did make code A...
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On May 22 2011 18:36 FXOpen wrote: Everyone saying that the koreans will just make the gap bigger if people dont play in Korea are wrong.
The gap is closing very quickly these days, and thats due to the fact that its not the ability of players thats the difference, its the training behind the skill. In brood war, people did not practice as hard as the koreans. As has been seen lately the foreigners are training harder, longer and far more organised than during the brood war days.
Well TT1 is saying the gap has gotten bigger since launch, I just took his word for it since he obviously knows more about it than me.
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On May 22 2011 18:28 oo inflame oo wrote: ... ... And to touch on my first point, making into Code A is arguably harder than winning MLG, and making into Code S definitely is. The money may not be a lot more rewarding than staying and competing in your home country, but the implications and prestige of being in Code A / Code S definitely is.
There is absolutely no freaking way getting into Code A is harder than winning MLG. That's stupid. If you had said winning Code A you could have a point but please...
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Well it's far from solving the issue, but we are hosting tournaments in Korea now. Still way more tournies in NA//EU however. But between that, Code A, and the FXO events I think it's a start towards getting more money into the Korean scene and helping with this problem.
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On May 22 2011 18:53 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 18:28 oo inflame oo wrote: ... ... And to touch on my first point, making into Code A is arguably harder than winning MLG, and making into Code S definitely is. The money may not be a lot more rewarding than staying and competing in your home country, but the implications and prestige of being in Code A / Code S definitely is.
There is absolutely no freaking way getting into Code A is harder than winning MLG. That's stupid. If you had said winning Code A you could have a point but please... i wouldnt be so sure...it took a player like bomber 4 or 5 season to get in ? yeah...
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On May 22 2011 16:07 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 16:04 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 15:34 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 15:31 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 14:58 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:53 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 14:31 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:15 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players Again, you keep speaking for everyone and making these sweeping statements. I really think you need to stop pretending you're the mouthpiece of the foreign community and speak for yourself. I really think a lot of foreigners who haven't even been to Korea, e.g. TSL3 finalists Naniwa and Thorzain, would not say that they can "never win consistently vs the top players". Being a pro player doesn't let you speak for everyone. The only person you can speak for is yourself, period. im not being a mouthpiece im just being honest, if you want to live in ur lil fictitious fairy land then be my guest You say you're "just being honest" but what you're spouting is your opinion and nothing more. You don't have tournament results to back this up. The few times we have seen some of our top foreigners go up against Koreans, they're performed very well. What evidence do you have to back your claims? You say I'm in a "fictitious fairy land" while you're the one sitting up there on some high horse making claims about other players abilities, which you have no right to do, nor any real basis on which to do that. Being a pro player doesn't exempt you from actually having to make a good argument. We're not just going to take everything you say as gospel when all actual evidence is contradictory to what you're saying. but wouldnt i have more credibility than you? if nony were to make the exact same statements that i just made would you have believed him? also you say i have no tournament results but you should take a closer look at this list: http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./my evidence is my word, and your evidence is based off of 1 tournament(tsl where the only foreigner who was competitive vs the koreans was thorzain)competitive , were both kinda turning in circles so ill give u the win Hey man look, I like you and I have no problem with you. I like Nony too, lol. I don't think you're like this uncredible person in the community or anything, as a progamer I value your opinions and insights, and you're rather vocal and I often agree with the things you say. I just can't help getting defensive of our players, and I guess I have a fair measure of "Western pride" if you can call it that. I just think there's this perception that these Koreans are these godlike players and while I think it was true in BW, I don't really think its applying in SC2. It's not just the TSL, its NASL and also even GSL, including the World Championships (where you yourself held your own!). I just think we need to stand up and say bring it Koreans, we can take you on and we can win. And I feel like this is true. The Korean forum translations we always see are of Koreans acting as if they're really superior and blaming stuff like latency and other extraneous crap on every loss to a foreigner. I just think we need to be proud and confident, and not say "yes, we know you're better than us..." and reinforce that belief. Anyways I do apologise if I sounded aggressive, I guess its just a touchy subject for me. Starcraft nationalism or something, hehe. I wish you the best of luck in the future  na im sorry too i always take everything way too personally, im sure that every foreigner shares the same sentiments as you.. including me but i was only trying to speak honestly and most of the time when that happens i come off as being over-agressive, sorry about that<3 LOL its hilarious how many times i paused my prison break episode just to come on tl so i could hit the refresh button endlessly, kinda reminded me of the old tl days where id get into flamewars with idra and we would both sit on the thread hitting f5 every second... AAAHHH good times haha yeah, I get all like riled up and into and spam F5, then I start feeling bad 'cause I generally hate arguing with anyone, lol. <3 Also, you're STILL watching prison break? That show was awesome like 5 years ago dude :D i started watching season 1 yesterday, im up to episode 12
im actually kinda jealous, wish i could go back and experience the awesomeness of season 1 =/
lol /derail thread
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GSL qualifiers are harder than GSL Code A IMO.... The conditions, the noise, the packed room... The GSL/MLG tradeup upsets me the most because people dont get to experience the qualifiers, which are a fantastic experience for any gamer, as well as hugely challenging.. Because its not just 1 game in 1 day against 1 race....
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Maybe SC2 will die in Korea? :O
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In response to what Chae Jung Won said, I am apologetic for the community I am a part of. Although I cannot be sure of exactly his tone from the translation and it being on the internet, I wish the best for him and the GSL.
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Just one thing I want to put out there and ask -- people are saying that spending time in Korea is a great training opportunity, but is that really true? I mean, you might be able to argue that the level of competition in Korea is higher, but how does that actually help a foreigner in Korea train? You need to have people you can practice with and communicate with, don't you? The ladder may be better, but just playing ladder games constantly isn't necessarily going to make you better.
If there were enough foreigners in Korea that they could train together effectively, or if the foreign players could train with the teams already established in Korea (difficult due to language), then I could see that being really beneficial. I don't know, what do people think? I keep seeing that argument thrown out there, but I don't really understand the reasoning.
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This might just be me, but maybe foreign progamers see this a bit too grim? this could be your chance of a lifetime... I would have liked to see more foreigners into the GSL not only coz its GSL, but e-sports as a whole. I understand that this is a progamer job, but still.. You can see what it does for Jinro and Huk. Its a shame, but i guess there decision is final..
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Its amazing how every few weeks, there are threads about this and people argue about it like they really know the matter.
I remember Jinro once did answer on this. He repeatedly said its a completely personal choice, its not like you can say staying in Korea is 100% better or worse. It works for some people (Jinro, Huk) while for others it does not.
People need to stop bringing in statistics or reasoning, and also please stop comparing foreigners and Koreans. You can't just bring a few matches, tournaments and say someone is definitely better than others. Saying Naniwa is better than Inca is just ridiculous and premature.
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On May 22 2011 19:15 dormer wrote: If there were enough foreigners in Korea that they could train together effectively, or if the foreign players could train with the teams already established in Korea (difficult due to language), then I could see that being really beneficial. I don't know, what do people think? I keep seeing that argument thrown out there, but I don't really understand the reasoning.
If you want to get all foreigners together in one house for them to play only against each other, then I don't see point in moving to Korea. There is already a house for European guys and a FXO house (is it operational?). Besides, I think that foreigners are already collaborating and practising with each other. Why would they move to Korea then?
You are all talking about moving to Korea like it is a baptism for all good players to become gods of sc2. I was watching recently Code A and S and both of these competitions weren't even close to TSL3 considering fun gained from watching the games.
One last thing, why we care so much about Koreans when we have such a bright and colourful future ahead of our own "foreign" scene? Events everywhere. People getting money from weekly tournaments, receiving a good amount of respect from the community. When it comes to Koreans, they don't help us and even make things more difficult. We share our replays - most tournaments release replays so we can become better, we invite Koreans gladly and they are having problems with recognising us as worthy players. Seriously, what's the big deal with Korea-love in SC2? It's not BW where everybody had to bow and pray to the Koreans for some kind of a skill-blessing. We should care more about our own neighbourhood because Koreans already do it.
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Didn't they invite people to the super tournament then reveal changes after they declined? where the players informed of the changes prior? I think the changes they are making to Code A / S Up & Down matches make it way more tempting.
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I can't believe people are arguing with TT1 about the skill gap. Seriously get a fucking grip. If you can't see it frankly you're delusional... using the one tournament, TSL3, as example as evidence it's close is objectively wrong.
On May 22 2011 16:22 garlicface wrote: The IdrA of now - when compared to other players - is far better than the IdrA of then. I think he got pretty lucky making Ro16 (you say 16 but wasn't it 8?). However, if he were to compete now then I would expect him to make Ro4 at least.
This is hilarious, you seriously think he would make the RO4 at LEAST??? What the hell are you going on about seriously? You're suggested IdrA improved but every Korean player stayed the same skill for some reason. When infact i think the Koreans have gone above and beyond IdrA's level. IdrA looks more impressive in tournaments because it's complete lesser opponents most of the time. He would not even get out of Code A imo.
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On May 22 2011 20:56 infinity2k9 wrote:I can't believe people are arguing with TT1 about the skill gap. Seriously get a fucking grip. If you can't see it frankly you're delusional... using the one tournament, TSL3, as example as evidence it's close is objectively wrong. Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 16:22 garlicface wrote: The IdrA of now - when compared to other players - is far better than the IdrA of then. I think he got pretty lucky making Ro16 (you say 16 but wasn't it 8?). However, if he were to compete now then I would expect him to make Ro4 at least. This is hilarious, you seriously think he would make the RO4 at LEAST??? What the hell are you going on about seriously? You're suggested IdrA improved but every Korean player stayed the same skill for some reason. When infact i think the Koreans have gone above and beyond IdrA's level. IdrA looks more impressive in tournaments because it's complete lesser opponents most of the time. He would not even get out of Code A imo. Idra proved that he could hold his own vs MC in dream invitational.
Honestly Koreans are not as far ahead of the European scene. Top Eu players are improving rapidly. The thing is the Korean format (Exclusive rights 1 match a week) really showcase the top level of these players and still you see players floating 400g 7 minutes into the game (Alicia).
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On May 22 2011 18:36 FXOpen wrote: Everyone saying that the koreans will just make the gap bigger if people dont play in Korea are wrong.
The gap is closing very quickly these days, and thats due to the fact that its not the ability of players thats the difference, its the training behind the skill. In brood war, people did not practice as hard as the koreans. As has been seen lately the foreigners are training harder, longer and far more organised than during the brood war days.
Providing the current trend keeps going, then there will be limited/no gap sometime in the future. Korean culture is fun, but hard to adapt to. There is limited english in Korea, mostly due to shyness of the people than ability. And the food and what not is an acquired taste. Some people simply wont be able to adapt to Korea. Other than that the winters are terribly cold and its not the easiest place to get around.
I do love Seoul.. Its been good to me. But I can understand why people are very hesitant to go.
You do realize that the current SC2 Korean players aren't even the top talents that can be collected from all the "pro programmer pool" from Korea, right? Most of the top talents are still being scouted by the SC1 market. However, it's only a matter of time until SC2 is professionalized in Korea, and the market will switch from SC1 to SC2. Then what? Do you still think that the gap will disappear down the road? The bottom line is that the Korean e-sport is a step ahead of everywhere else that when the big money corporations start throwing down their resources and money, the foreign scene just won't be able to compete (aka, BW deja vu).
People need to realize that only reason GOMTV goes out of their way to "accomodate" the foreigners is because they need the foreign market to stay in business against competitions from KeSPA (and others) in a couple years. Let's be real. Do you think if Blizzard signs with the KeSPA, then Korea would give as much flip about the foriegn community as GOMTV is doing right now?
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I also wish to add that even if the foreign SC2 pros are training harder than in BW, that isn't saying much. That's a given considering the money floating around, people are far more likely to be able to play SC2 full time.
Perhaps the training is better organized but it's hardly enough compared to the pro house environment in Korea. I mean, we have 3(?) foreign pro houses as of now. One being ROOTs which TT1 says is more of a cool place to hang out and chill at, one being the Swedish one which could very well be the same, it's too soon to tell. The last one FXO seems to be the most promising one and the one I'm excited about. Not because the big fat mansion but because there's a professional organization behind it who should be able to 'motivate' the players.
I mean five cool guys hanging out in a house is all fine and well, and it would be the dream for any gamer for surebut the net result is quite uncertain. I'm sure it beats sitting alone in an appartment but it can't compare to what they have going in Korea with coaches, schedules and whatnot.
In short, I believe in this new wave of professional training we apparently have in the west the day I see it. So far I haven't seen a thing.
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On May 22 2011 21:22 Eppa! wrote: Honestly Koreans are not as far ahead of the European scene. Top Eu players are improving rapidly. The thing is the Korean format (Exclusive rights 1 match a week) really showcase the top level of these players and still you see players floating 400g 7 minutes into the game (Alicia). That must mean Naniwa is the worst player ever after floating nearly 2500/1500 in the recent match vs Nada in the NASL? http://nasl.tv/Videos/naniwa-vs-nada-week-six-division-three game 2 at 31:57
... or maybe not?
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On May 22 2011 22:50 blackbrrd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 21:22 Eppa! wrote: Honestly Koreans are not as far ahead of the European scene. Top Eu players are improving rapidly. The thing is the Korean format (Exclusive rights 1 match a week) really showcase the top level of these players and still you see players floating 400g 7 minutes into the game (Alicia). That must mean Naniwa is the worst player ever after floating nearly 2500/1500 in the recent match vs Nada in the NASL? http://nasl.tv/Videos/naniwa-vs-nada-week-six-division-three game 2 at 31:57 ... or maybe not? How is that relevant in any way? My point was that currently is that Koreans aren't super gods doing bisu builds doing impeccable macro neither are foreign players. 7min and 30 min how is that even close? The gap is either small or non existent everybody makes a lot mistakes other than top level BW players and they are not playing SC2.
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On May 22 2011 12:45 gozima wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote: TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players If this trend continues [foreigners not being able to make any type of commitment to train in Korea], the SC2 scene will just end up being like the BW scene, with Korea dominating everyone. It kind of makes me sad. It's unfortunate that western pros see absolutely no incentive to compete with the best because of all the "easy" money that's available to them in the West.
Until eSports is viewed as a legitimate sport among foreigners, it's not going to change, because simply put no one is going to view pro-gaming with the seriousness required to train ~10-12 hours a day, 6-7 days a week. Even BW pro-gamers who used to do that, like IdrA, do not do anything close to it for SC 2 and I doubt anyone in the foreigner's scene does.
But legitimizing eSports is what leagues like NASL and IPL are trying to do. It's a slow process, however, and we're not even at the stage of televised competitions yet. SC 2 is huge for Western eSports, but it'll still take a lot of time and effort before this community becomes something other than the niche community that it currently is, with most of its viewership restricted to TL and HD & Husky's subscribers.
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TT1 speaking the truth in this thread....online results mean nothing and even with the lag disadvantage and having to play their games at 4 am most Koreans in the NASL are near the top of their groups. If that doesn't tell you there's a skill gap what does? If a foreigner manages to win MLG or Dreamhack with the koreans invited maybe there'll be an argument but if Koreans win again on lan then hopefully we can shut down this argument once and for all.
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On May 22 2011 21:22 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 20:56 infinity2k9 wrote:I can't believe people are arguing with TT1 about the skill gap. Seriously get a fucking grip. If you can't see it frankly you're delusional... using the one tournament, TSL3, as example as evidence it's close is objectively wrong. On May 22 2011 16:22 garlicface wrote: The IdrA of now - when compared to other players - is far better than the IdrA of then. I think he got pretty lucky making Ro16 (you say 16 but wasn't it 8?). However, if he were to compete now then I would expect him to make Ro4 at least. This is hilarious, you seriously think he would make the RO4 at LEAST??? What the hell are you going on about seriously? You're suggested IdrA improved but every Korean player stayed the same skill for some reason. When infact i think the Koreans have gone above and beyond IdrA's level. IdrA looks more impressive in tournaments because it's complete lesser opponents most of the time. He would not even get out of Code A imo. Idra proved that he could hold his own vs MC in dream invitational. Honestly Koreans are not as far ahead of the European scene. Top Eu players are improving rapidly. The thing is the Korean format (Exclusive rights 1 match a week) really showcase the top level of these players and still you see players floating 400g 7 minutes into the game (Alicia).
Leave Alicia alone and let him build his nexus.
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On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote: hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for.
the price winning list is a very good example you should stay out of korea.
the only koreans that have won more than say fenix are GSL-finalists and ace, wich won almost all his price money in IEM :D
are you not good enough to be sure you will make it to the finals, say MVP and MC, you should stay out of korea. is there any doubt a player like tester would have made more than 11k if he lived and played in na/eu?
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On May 22 2011 21:22 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 20:56 infinity2k9 wrote:I can't believe people are arguing with TT1 about the skill gap. Seriously get a fucking grip. If you can't see it frankly you're delusional... using the one tournament, TSL3, as example as evidence it's close is objectively wrong. On May 22 2011 16:22 garlicface wrote: The IdrA of now - when compared to other players - is far better than the IdrA of then. I think he got pretty lucky making Ro16 (you say 16 but wasn't it 8?). However, if he were to compete now then I would expect him to make Ro4 at least. This is hilarious, you seriously think he would make the RO4 at LEAST??? What the hell are you going on about seriously? You're suggested IdrA improved but every Korean player stayed the same skill for some reason. When infact i think the Koreans have gone above and beyond IdrA's level. IdrA looks more impressive in tournaments because it's complete lesser opponents most of the time. He would not even get out of Code A imo. Idra proved that he could hold his own vs MC in dream invitational. Honestly Koreans are not as far ahead of the European scene. Top Eu players are improving rapidly. The thing is the Korean format (Exclusive rights 1 match a week) really showcase the top level of these players and still you see players floating 400g 7 minutes into the game (Alicia).
its things like this that cause conflict whenever a discussion like this starts, my definition of a top player might not be the same as yours.. i dont consider alicia being nowhere near one the best players in korea
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EU/NA has many players who could be Code A/low-mid Code S level. Players like Idra, Naniwa, Sen, Select, Kiwikaki, White Ra and others definitely could hold their own in Korea at a similar level to where Huk is now.
But, the elite few at the pinnacle of Code S; MVP, Nestea, MC and MKP and considerably better and more consistant than any foreigners.
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On May 23 2011 04:52 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 21:22 Eppa! wrote:On May 22 2011 20:56 infinity2k9 wrote:I can't believe people are arguing with TT1 about the skill gap. Seriously get a fucking grip. If you can't see it frankly you're delusional... using the one tournament, TSL3, as example as evidence it's close is objectively wrong. On May 22 2011 16:22 garlicface wrote: The IdrA of now - when compared to other players - is far better than the IdrA of then. I think he got pretty lucky making Ro16 (you say 16 but wasn't it 8?). However, if he were to compete now then I would expect him to make Ro4 at least. This is hilarious, you seriously think he would make the RO4 at LEAST??? What the hell are you going on about seriously? You're suggested IdrA improved but every Korean player stayed the same skill for some reason. When infact i think the Koreans have gone above and beyond IdrA's level. IdrA looks more impressive in tournaments because it's complete lesser opponents most of the time. He would not even get out of Code A imo. Idra proved that he could hold his own vs MC in dream invitational. Honestly Koreans are not as far ahead of the European scene. Top Eu players are improving rapidly. The thing is the Korean format (Exclusive rights 1 match a week) really showcase the top level of these players and still you see players floating 400g 7 minutes into the game (Alicia). Leave Alicia alone and let him build his nexus. Double expanding with 3 gate?
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On May 22 2011 21:23 jellyjello wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 18:36 FXOpen wrote: Everyone saying that the koreans will just make the gap bigger if people dont play in Korea are wrong.
The gap is closing very quickly these days, and thats due to the fact that its not the ability of players thats the difference, its the training behind the skill. In brood war, people did not practice as hard as the koreans. As has been seen lately the foreigners are training harder, longer and far more organised than during the brood war days.
Providing the current trend keeps going, then there will be limited/no gap sometime in the future. Korean culture is fun, but hard to adapt to. There is limited english in Korea, mostly due to shyness of the people than ability. And the food and what not is an acquired taste. Some people simply wont be able to adapt to Korea. Other than that the winters are terribly cold and its not the easiest place to get around.
I do love Seoul.. Its been good to me. But I can understand why people are very hesitant to go.
You do realize that the current SC2 Korean players aren't even the top talents that can be collected from all the "pro programmer pool" from Korea, right? Most of the top talents are still being scouted by the SC1 market. However, it's only a matter of time until SC2 is professionalized in Korea, and the market will switch from SC1 to SC2. Then what? Do you still think that the gap will disappear down the road? The bottom line is that the Korean e-sport is a step ahead of everywhere else that when the big money corporations start throwing down their resources and money, the foreign scene just won't be able to compete (aka, BW deja vu). People need to realize that only reason GOMTV goes out of their way to "accomodate" the foreigners is because they need the foreign market to stay in business against competitions from KeSPA (and others) in a couple years. Let's be real. Do you think if Blizzard signs with the KeSPA, then Korea would give as much flip about the foriegn community as GOMTV is doing right now?
Talent is good and all but what makes Flash and Jaedong be who they are is the immense amount of training they put in daily. I don't believe for a minute that foreign players are less talented than the koreans, but rather that they have had a disadvantage in infrastructure and support all along during BW.. things are changing with SC2 though. And FYI, the big money corporations outside of korea can outspend those inside korea 100 to 1 if not more, if e-sports continue to grow the way it's been growing in the last year.
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Can't really compare Foreign Pros directly to Korean Pros.
The best of West are already full time active in SC2. The best(S class, A class, B class) Koreans are still playing a 2D game.
So it's too early to say who is better. You still need to beat the final boss ^.~
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In a nutshell GSL > MLG? I don't think the games of the GSL are so much higher skillwise... correct me if I'm wrong but isn't GSL a total cheesefest lately? Let's see how the koreans will do in the next MLG :D
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I find it funny that anyone would seriously think Korea isn't better than everywhere else. The argument is how far ahead they are, not whether they are. Personally I think even Code A is higher competition than any foreign tournament, though there are some foreigners that absolutely could compete.
It's a shame that the GSL format doesn't really work for those not living there full time though. I'd like to see more tournaments like the GSL WC. Perhaps a better partnership for MLG and GSL would be having top MLG players invited over for a week long tourney or something. Heck, you could even have an "MLG team" for a short team league; that could actually work very well. Just make sure to match them up against ZeNeX first so we know they can win at least once. . .
Or perhaps GSL should just stop having their prizes so top heavy. Make it so that getting to Ro16 is actually worthwhile and you'll see foreigners who maybe don't think they'd have a great chance against NesTea or MVP but could do decently against someone like San show up to make some money.
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It's just unreasonable for GOM to assume players can come over to korea for over a month.
I expect zero foreigners to come to korea in the near future except the code S invite from MLG. There is simply no reason to play in korea over US or europe as it's much easier making money outside of korea. Korea doesn't have higher prices but does have much higher competition so why would foreigners bother?? I can't understand why Jinro and Huk even bother to stay except for pride and perhaps training.
It's great that the koreans play in events like MLG and NASL though. I'm afraid they might dominate next MLG though and truly widen the gap between foreigners and koreans.
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The question is why should GSL babysit all the foreigners? If GSL has no foreigners, I will still watch it since it fits my time zone. Even in other sports there is no reason for the league to specially crater for forgeiners, it's the sponsors and team's decision whether to bring in forgeiners.
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On May 23 2011 09:34 Turbo.Tactics wrote: In a nutshell GSL > MLG? I don't think the games of the GSL are so much higher skillwise... correct me if I'm wrong but isn't GSL a total cheesefest lately? Let's see how the koreans will do in the next MLG :D
GSL is much higher skillwise than MLG, it's not even close. Cheesing is legitimate strategy but regardless there's no more cheesing in GSL than any other tournaments.
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I thought everyone had the same opinion on this subject. Korea has a way bigger talent pool where the US/EU has a more reserved talent pool meaning only the top 20 of each region can compete against the top 60 of Korea .
Disclaimer: The numbers I used are completely based of my opinion and represent no real value.
Back on topic, I feel like tt1 summed it up perfectly. I do not believe that esports is at a point where just showing up at a live event can make up for the costs of travel and shelter without a decent size prize pool. So, any Korean tournaments become a huge risk/reward type thing.
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considering what kind of players are in the supertournament some of the good EU players could have easily beaten the first round or gone further into the tournament
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On May 23 2011 08:04 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 04:52 Baarn wrote:On May 22 2011 21:22 Eppa! wrote:On May 22 2011 20:56 infinity2k9 wrote:I can't believe people are arguing with TT1 about the skill gap. Seriously get a fucking grip. If you can't see it frankly you're delusional... using the one tournament, TSL3, as example as evidence it's close is objectively wrong. On May 22 2011 16:22 garlicface wrote: The IdrA of now - when compared to other players - is far better than the IdrA of then. I think he got pretty lucky making Ro16 (you say 16 but wasn't it 8?). However, if he were to compete now then I would expect him to make Ro4 at least. This is hilarious, you seriously think he would make the RO4 at LEAST??? What the hell are you going on about seriously? You're suggested IdrA improved but every Korean player stayed the same skill for some reason. When infact i think the Koreans have gone above and beyond IdrA's level. IdrA looks more impressive in tournaments because it's complete lesser opponents most of the time. He would not even get out of Code A imo. Idra proved that he could hold his own vs MC in dream invitational. Honestly Koreans are not as far ahead of the European scene. Top Eu players are improving rapidly. The thing is the Korean format (Exclusive rights 1 match a week) really showcase the top level of these players and still you see players floating 400g 7 minutes into the game (Alicia). Leave Alicia alone and let him build his nexus. Double expanding with 3 gate?
Warpgates cause minerals to build up. 400 minerals can easily be dumped on 3 stalkers.
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On May 23 2011 17:30 Skilledblob wrote: considering what kind of players are in the supertournament some of the good EU players could have easily beaten the first round or gone further into the tournament
A lot of these lesser known players from Code A/B are actually really good. Just look at Bomber, MMA, Ryung who've only had one season in GSL as well as players like DongRaGu(sp) who can't even get into Code A. I know Haypro's not in great form but the fact he never requalified for Code A should suggest there's a lot of good players down in Code B.
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On May 23 2011 18:12 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 17:30 Skilledblob wrote: considering what kind of players are in the supertournament some of the good EU players could have easily beaten the first round or gone further into the tournament A lot of these lesser known players from Code A/B are actually really good. Just look at Bomber, MMA, Ryung who've only had one season in GSL as well as players like DongRaGu(sp) who can't even get into Code A. I know Haypro's not in great form but the fact he never requalified for Code A should suggest there's a lot of good players down in Code B.
I dont mean the Code A guys like Bomber.
But there are some invitees from old GSL Open seasons and those guys were really bad
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On May 23 2011 18:14 Skilledblob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2011 18:12 Blasphemi wrote:On May 23 2011 17:30 Skilledblob wrote: considering what kind of players are in the supertournament some of the good EU players could have easily beaten the first round or gone further into the tournament A lot of these lesser known players from Code A/B are actually really good. Just look at Bomber, MMA, Ryung who've only had one season in GSL as well as players like DongRaGu(sp) who can't even get into Code A. I know Haypro's not in great form but the fact he never requalified for Code A should suggest there's a lot of good players down in Code B. I dont mean the Code A guys like Bomber. But there are some invitees from old GSL Open seasons and those guys were really bad
Yeah for sure, like all tournaments it's in the luck of how you draw.
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Korean tournament just sound so much more competitive. Outside korean individual tournaments seems infrequent enough and a stable location that it seems hard for players to trade informtaion and strats.. I hope one day someone can buy a studio and invest in a stable live monthly tournament that would even attracts koreans out of their country... Maybe someone in this community should just organise it, get people here interested to invest. Man if I made huge salary at the moment i would do this and hire Jason Lee Hahah.
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On May 23 2011 17:28 Lamppost wrote: I thought everyone had the same opinion on this subject. Korea has a way bigger talent pool where the US/EU has a more reserved talent pool meaning only the top 20 of each region can compete against the top 60 of Korea .
I'd adjust that: Korea has a way bigger trained talent pool, and the infrastructure/culture in place to maintain it.
The US/EU has a much bigger raw talent pool to draw from (because duh), but it's mostly un- or undertrained (even our best "pros" don't have anything like a Korean pro-team's regimen).
If I may draw an analogy, it's the same reason the USA is always mediocre in the World Cup. We may be a bigger country, with a larger "pool" of athletes to draw from... but the culture encourages them to do other things (American football, basketball, soccer), and even the ones who do play soccer don't have the same infrastructure in place to support them (though that's slowly improving).
tl;dr: by Korean standards, almost all of the best foreign pros are really just "amateurs", even if they're very good. Amateurs can't afford the professional rigors of travel, training, etc.
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Don Ragu: The Spaghetti Zerg. Best nickname ever? I think so.
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On May 22 2011 16:22 garlicface wrote: The IdrA of now - when compared to other players - is far better than the IdrA of then. I think he got pretty lucky making Ro16 (you say 16 but wasn't it 8?). However, if he were to compete now then I would expect him to make Ro4 at least.
So which of those players can Idra beat for sure to make Ro4 at least: IMNestea IMMvp STBomber oGsMC
Anyways, people should realize that, for foreign players going to Korea is not a great option, unless if you can arrange a partnership with a team so that the player going to Korea can train with them. In that case, regardless of the prize money, he will get one of the most famous esport experience throughout the world. Such a partnership, though is very hard to accomplish and I think that was Xeris's point (because all of the team houses are full).
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On May 22 2011 11:41 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:16 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 22 2011 03:09 TicketoHELL wrote:On May 22 2011 03:04 Subversion wrote:and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans. Did this piss anyone else off? Nobody said this at all, did they? How arrogant is that? What the fuck. ok you got this wrong read the paragraph again it says that foreign fans not the gom people I always read that foreigners regarded Koreans has very strong and powerful, previously on a level of unbeatable(ness). Nowhere have I seen someone say that people don't want to accept the Code A invite "because its too hard to beat Koreans". That actually hasn't been brought up at all. Besides, all the MLG winners who've been to Korea have achieved Code S. So this dude can f*ck right off. Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 10:52 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote: Response from playxp by TT1 himself: "hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean
hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell
another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,
also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday
i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that
last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL
hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "
OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now. I don't. What the hell, foreigners aren't as good as Koreans? Look at NASL, TSL, even GSL. Even the World Champs went down to an ace match. TT1 needs to speak for himself, maybe he can't beat Koreans, but the likes of IdrA, Jinro, Thorzain, Naniwa, HuK say whats up. I'm so sick of placing these Koreans on a pedestal. Sure it was like that in Brood War, but foreigners have shown that they can compete with them in SC2. And to have one of our own community speaking on behalf of everyone and totally undermining the entire scene like that is fucking atrocious. I'm too pissed, I'm taking a break from this thread.
Dude... I know you apologized to TT1 and all, but you are absolutely delusional trying to prove that foreigner skill = Korean skill in SC2 with NASL, GSL, TSL, and the GSL WC.
Listen, I'm not trying to attack you, and I'm not trying to "place these Koreans on a pedestal", but how is quoting NASL GSL TSL and the GSL WC going to prove that foreigners are on the same level as the Korean players?
NASL & TSL: Online tournaments have no bearing on true skill, according to IdrA. He says you shouldn't lose to Koreans on KR -> NA being played on the NA server. I mention IdrA because he is the most vocal out of the top foreigners who experienced it firsthand of playing from Korea on the NA server. If you want, I can post a direct quote on SotG for reference. Have you played on the NA server from Korea to prove that IdrA is wrong? If IdrA is a weak point of reference, what would be a better one?
GSL WC: It went to the ace match... in an exhibition for no money. How exactly does that hold weight?
In the actual tournament: Dimaga vs Nestea was an awesome series, but he got rolled by San 3-1 in the next round. (Note: Dimaga was the only person on the World All-Stars to beat a Korean in a BO3 or BO5 there - and it was the first round.)
GSL: Huk, Jinro, Ret, Haypro, IdrA, TLO are the only foreigners to play in Code A or higher. Code A and Code S have gotten much harder since Ret, TLO, and IdrA left. If you disagree with this, please show objective results to disprove it.
It's one thing to show love for the foreigner scene, but the truth can hurt. There's no need to attack people for stating it and they were not trying to rub it in our faces. I think you are paranoid in thinking TT1 or the GOM director were being arrogant - I thought they were telling universally truths in terms of foreigner vs Korean skill level...
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Russian Federation899 Posts
uhm, personally i find most of GSL matches hella boring so arguments of a "korean players are much better than non-koreans the price pool is small and stuff" kind look pretty unconvincing.
The pretty obvious part is: who the heck will want to travel to Korea to play for 1 month so he gets a maximum of a $900 while u can get pretty much the same in EU\NA by playing a tone of local tourneys w/o spending 2k to move to Korea and some money for actually living there.
The only advantage of such a trip i see is being able to play with good players but u most likely will get to them somewhere in ro8. Add up Starcraft 2 being young game where the stability of any progamer (even the best one) is under question...
No offence but all this looks like GSL thinks they are doing a huge favor to non-korean progamers by inviting them to this event.
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So, it turns out that team Fnatic doesn't want to spend the travel and accommodation money for their players, instead blaming on short notice with the big tittle "The Problem with Korea".
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On May 26 2011 11:38 TDN wrote: So, it turns out that team Fnatic doesn't want to spend the travel and accommodation money for their players, instead blaming on short notice with the big tittle "The Problem with Korea".
Considering that they are playing on a budget and sending their best players to a tournament that will cost them a lot more than what they'll make back (even if said players win) instead of sending them to local tournaments for far less money with more local exposure (more ad revenue) and more likely of a chance to get their investment and then some back in return, you're right, every team should definitely jump on this chance! *sarcasm :p*
Esports isn't a cash cow and what little money there is to make is better spent strengthening the local scene then there is increasing your "global presence" by shipping off to tournaments that won't make you any money, even in ad revenue. It just isn't a financially responsible thing for any team to do to try and get their players out to Korea where they can become a 1 and done and be completely forgotten about for a month.
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On May 26 2011 02:25 PHC wrote: GSL WC: It went to the ace match... in an exhibition for no money. How exactly does that hold weight?
In the actual tournament: Dimaga vs Nestea was an awesome series, but he got rolled by San 3-1 in the next round. (Note: Dimaga was the only person on the World All-Stars to beat a Korean in a BO3 or BO5 there - and it was the first round.)
GSL: Huk, Jinro, Ret, Haypro, IdrA, TLO are the only foreigners to play in Code A or higher. Code A and Code S have gotten much harder since Ret, TLO, and IdrA left. If you disagree with this, please show objective results to disprove it.
Just to correct you, TT1 made it to the RO8 as well, and if he had been bracketed against San, I think we might have seen a different outcome. Instead he gets bracketed against the terran with the most unique playstyle, and one who used that playstyle to make it to the finals consistently in Korea multiple times. He played against someone who plays different than all other terrans, and dominates with it.
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On May 22 2011 02:46 heatly wrote: I would say inca is atleast on par if not better in some aspects (PvP) as Naniwa. Inca lost to the top zerg in the world (or one of) in the finals having one bad match doesn't make you bad. IMO Nestea would wipe the floor naniwa in a LAN setting. I guess will have to see Naniwa has a good chance of taking MLG Columbus and I believe I read or heard some where that Naniwa would take a GSL spot if the opportunity arose.
Funny how a player that won a 5k dollar tournament and is suddenly being compared in every thread to top Code S.
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On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote: I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.
Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams. MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf.
Not really fair to compare, MLG is not just starcraft 2, while GomTV operates around Starcraft 2, they need to have content flowing and have matches being played.
But of course it would be great to see GomTV plan and publicly announce these events sooner.
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On May 22 2011 02:21 DivinO wrote: There is a notable difference between seeds for MLG and a seed for GSL?
Explain, please.
since all the 'foreigner' seems to care about is the prize pool
losing 2 games in Code S will give you the same money as finishing 4th in MLG (~$1400) which require you win most games
and dont talk about cost since flight and accomodation is paid by GSL/MLG and you would still need to eat whether you're in Korea or USA
so in a sense, the 4 seed the Korean got for MLG is worst than the code S seed the foreigner will get
On May 22 2011 03:01 AndreiDaGiant wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote: I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.
HuK: currently residing in code S IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist Naniwa: ??? That is a really good point...
HuK: drop down to Up & Down after getting 0-2-ed in group IdrA: left for easier competition in NA Jinro: down to code A Naniwa: ????
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On May 26 2011 14:25 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 02:25 PHC wrote: GSL WC: It went to the ace match... in an exhibition for no money. How exactly does that hold weight?
In the actual tournament: Dimaga vs Nestea was an awesome series, but he got rolled by San 3-1 in the next round. (Note: Dimaga was the only person on the World All-Stars to beat a Korean in a BO3 or BO5 there - and it was the first round.)
GSL: Huk, Jinro, Ret, Haypro, IdrA, TLO are the only foreigners to play in Code A or higher. Code A and Code S have gotten much harder since Ret, TLO, and IdrA left. If you disagree with this, please show objective results to disprove it.
Just to correct you, TT1 made it to the RO8 as well, and if he had been bracketed against San, I think we might have seen a different outcome. Instead he gets bracketed against the terran with the most unique playstyle, and one who used that playstyle to make it to the finals consistently in Korea multiple times. He played against someone who plays different than all other terrans, and dominates with it.
There is no need to correct me. TT1 did not beat a Korean in a BO3 or BO5 in the GSL WC. He beat a foreigner to get to the RO 8. Click on Week 1
Also, hypotheticals between a Korean vs. a foreigner for convenience should really be avoided. What if TT1 faced off against MVP? MC? And what if he did face San? He beat White-Ra a few days before. It is much easier to base relative skill based on actual results.
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