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GomTV caster's answer to foreigners' rejection - Page 25

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Skilledblob
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany3392 Posts
May 23 2011 08:30 GMT
#481
considering what kind of players are in the supertournament some of the good EU players could have easily beaten the first round or gone further into the tournament
snafoo
Profile Joined August 2010
New Zealand1615 Posts
May 23 2011 08:54 GMT
#482
On May 23 2011 08:04 Eppa! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 23 2011 04:52 Baarn wrote:
On May 22 2011 21:22 Eppa! wrote:
On May 22 2011 20:56 infinity2k9 wrote:
I can't believe people are arguing with TT1 about the skill gap. Seriously get a fucking grip. If you can't see it frankly you're delusional... using the one tournament, TSL3, as example as evidence it's close is objectively wrong.

On May 22 2011 16:22 garlicface wrote:
The IdrA of now - when compared to other players - is far better than the IdrA of then. I think he got pretty lucky making Ro16 (you say 16 but wasn't it 8?). However, if he were to compete now then I would expect him to make Ro4 at least.


This is hilarious, you seriously think he would make the RO4 at LEAST??? What the hell are you going on about seriously? You're suggested IdrA improved but every Korean player stayed the same skill for some reason. When infact i think the Koreans have gone above and beyond IdrA's level. IdrA looks more impressive in tournaments because it's complete lesser opponents most of the time. He would not even get out of Code A imo.

Idra proved that he could hold his own vs MC in dream invitational.

Honestly Koreans are not as far ahead of the European scene. Top Eu players are improving rapidly. The thing is the Korean format (Exclusive rights 1 match a week) really showcase the top level of these players and still you see players floating 400g 7 minutes into the game (Alicia).


Leave Alicia alone and let him build his nexus.

Double expanding with 3 gate?


Warpgates cause minerals to build up. 400 minerals can easily be dumped on 3 stalkers.
Blasphemi
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom980 Posts
May 23 2011 09:12 GMT
#483
On May 23 2011 17:30 Skilledblob wrote:
considering what kind of players are in the supertournament some of the good EU players could have easily beaten the first round or gone further into the tournament


A lot of these lesser known players from Code A/B are actually really good. Just look at Bomber, MMA, Ryung who've only had one season in GSL as well as players like DongRaGu(sp) who can't even get into Code A. I know Haypro's not in great form but the fact he never requalified for Code A should suggest there's a lot of good players down in Code B.
Skilledblob
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany3392 Posts
May 23 2011 09:14 GMT
#484
On May 23 2011 18:12 Blasphemi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 23 2011 17:30 Skilledblob wrote:
considering what kind of players are in the supertournament some of the good EU players could have easily beaten the first round or gone further into the tournament


A lot of these lesser known players from Code A/B are actually really good. Just look at Bomber, MMA, Ryung who've only had one season in GSL as well as players like DongRaGu(sp) who can't even get into Code A. I know Haypro's not in great form but the fact he never requalified for Code A should suggest there's a lot of good players down in Code B.


I dont mean the Code A guys like Bomber.

But there are some invitees from old GSL Open seasons and those guys were really bad
Blasphemi
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom980 Posts
May 23 2011 09:16 GMT
#485
On May 23 2011 18:14 Skilledblob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 23 2011 18:12 Blasphemi wrote:
On May 23 2011 17:30 Skilledblob wrote:
considering what kind of players are in the supertournament some of the good EU players could have easily beaten the first round or gone further into the tournament


A lot of these lesser known players from Code A/B are actually really good. Just look at Bomber, MMA, Ryung who've only had one season in GSL as well as players like DongRaGu(sp) who can't even get into Code A. I know Haypro's not in great form but the fact he never requalified for Code A should suggest there's a lot of good players down in Code B.


I dont mean the Code A guys like Bomber.

But there are some invitees from old GSL Open seasons and those guys were really bad


Yeah for sure, like all tournaments it's in the luck of how you draw.
ilmman
Profile Joined September 2010
364 Posts
May 23 2011 09:49 GMT
#486
Korean tournament just sound so much more competitive. Outside korean individual tournaments seems infrequent enough and a stable location that it seems hard for players to trade informtaion and strats.. I hope one day someone can buy a studio and invest in a stable live monthly tournament that would even attracts koreans out of their country... Maybe someone in this community should just organise it, get people here interested to invest. Man if I made huge salary at the moment i would do this and hire Jason Lee Hahah.
VGhost
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3613 Posts
May 23 2011 17:26 GMT
#487
On May 23 2011 17:28 Lamppost wrote:
I thought everyone had the same opinion on this subject. Korea has a way bigger talent pool where the US/EU has a more reserved talent pool meaning only the top 20 of each region can compete against the top 60 of Korea .


I'd adjust that: Korea has a way bigger trained talent pool, and the infrastructure/culture in place to maintain it.

The US/EU has a much bigger raw talent pool to draw from (because duh), but it's mostly un- or undertrained (even our best "pros" don't have anything like a Korean pro-team's regimen).

If I may draw an analogy, it's the same reason the USA is always mediocre in the World Cup. We may be a bigger country, with a larger "pool" of athletes to draw from... but the culture encourages them to do other things (American football, basketball, soccer), and even the ones who do play soccer don't have the same infrastructure in place to support them (though that's slowly improving).

tl;dr: by Korean standards, almost all of the best foreign pros are really just "amateurs", even if they're very good. Amateurs can't afford the professional rigors of travel, training, etc.
#4427 || I am not going to scan a ferret.
Thallis
Profile Joined September 2010
United States314 Posts
May 23 2011 17:32 GMT
#488
Don Ragu: The Spaghetti Zerg. Best nickname ever? I think so.
/)*(\
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-25 16:14:50
May 25 2011 16:09 GMT
#489
On May 22 2011 16:22 garlicface wrote:
The IdrA of now - when compared to other players - is far better than the IdrA of then. I think he got pretty lucky making Ro16 (you say 16 but wasn't it 8?). However, if he were to compete now then I would expect him to make Ro4 at least.


So which of those players can Idra beat for sure to make Ro4 at least:
IMNestea
IMMvp
STBomber
oGsMC


Anyways, people should realize that, for foreign players going to Korea is not a great option, unless if you can arrange a partnership with a team so that the player going to Korea can train with them. In that case, regardless of the prize money, he will get one of the most famous esport experience throughout the world. Such a partnership, though is very hard to accomplish and I think that was Xeris's point (because all of the team houses are full).
PHC
Profile Joined March 2011
United States472 Posts
May 25 2011 17:25 GMT
#490
On May 22 2011 11:41 Subversion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2011 03:16 Torte de Lini wrote:
On May 22 2011 03:09 TicketoHELL wrote:
On May 22 2011 03:04 Subversion wrote:
and says 'this happens because it is so hard to beat Koreans.


Did this piss anyone else off?

Nobody said this at all, did they? How arrogant is that?

What the fuck.

ok you got this wrong read the paragraph again
it says that foreign fans not the gom people


I always read that foreigners regarded Koreans has very strong and powerful, previously on a level of unbeatable(ness).


Nowhere have I seen someone say that people don't want to accept the Code A invite "because its too hard to beat Koreans". That actually hasn't been brought up at all.

Besides, all the MLG winners who've been to Korea have achieved Code S. So this dude can f*ck right off.


Show nested quote +
On May 22 2011 10:52 BackSideAttack wrote:
On May 22 2011 10:23 TicketoHELL wrote:
Response from playxp by TT1 himself:
"hello mr. chae and to all the korean community at playxp ^_^, i hope someone can translate this message in korean

hi my name is Payam Toghyan and i go by the aka of TT1 in starcraft 2, the main purpose of this message is to talk about why the foreigners rejected the gsl super tournament invitation, first and foremost i want to apologize to anyone who felt offended by our decision, as mr. chae pointed out the main reason the foreigners refused to attend the tournament was because of the decreased prizepool(in the earlier rounds). higher competition level and the travel costs not being covered by gsl this time around(they were covered during the world championship tournament), i am currently on team fnatic and xeris(our team manager) is a good friend of mine but i must agree that the short period of notice that gsl sent out before their invite was not the main issue, i wont say it isnt a problem organization-wise, because it is, however its not something that creates a huge barrier for us, the korean players are obviously alot better than the foreigner players at the moment so our teams and the sponsors most likely felt that it wouldnt have been in their best interest to invest so much money(because travelling to korea is extremely expensive and all the teams have a set budget that they can use annulay), with the risk of getting so little in return, i can only speculate but i know enought about the foreign proscene to say that the risk/reward was most likely not favorable enought for them to make that type of commitment in order to send us to korea, unfortunatly esports is a business and teams have to look at every situation from a economic perspective aswell

another problem was that the GSL Super Tournament would have conflicted with MLG and Dreamhack, a huge chunk of our sponsors market is located in north america and europe so having GSL conflict with other tournaments causes a huge problem because we need to make appearances in those markets aswell, i personally loved my time in korea and i hope i can come back sometime in the future, its very frustrating because as a player i look at every situation from a players perspective, my wish is to compete on the biggest stage with the best players in world however there are many factors beyond my power which block me from achieving that goal, hopefully everything can be resolved in the future so koreans and foreigners would be able to compete(and maybe even practice?) on the same stage more frequently, my personal dream would be to have a foreigner team compete in the gstl alongside all the top korean teams(aswell as have foreigner and koreans compete in individual tournaments more frequently), until that day i will practice even harder in order to reach the same level as the top korean players because as it is the top koreans players are much much better than the top foreign players,

also i never had the opportunity to thank mr park for his hospitality in korea, so thank you very much<3, i especially want to thank gisado(hihi gisado ^_^) for the kindness that he showed us in korea, he made us feel as if we were at home, when i was sick gisado even took time out of his day to take me to the hospital in order to translate everything for me, he even payed for my medication which i felt extremely shy about-_-, the next time we meet i must pay you back by buying you dinner ^_^, also i want to say hi to SIN who i got to know very well aswell in korea, i hope your doing well and thank you for everything, listening to qoo)max and sin cast together is one of the memorys that ill always remember from my time in korea because they were so good : D, how does max have so much energy O_O? you know someones doing a good job when you have no idea what their saying but your still entertained nonetheless, i hope to see you guys cast the gsl together someday

i also want to congratulate nestea on his win in the code s finals and nada on another strong performance(wow nada will remain a gosu for life, what a strong/consistent player, he just keeps getting better and better) and i hope the korean community isnt being too harsh on inca because all the foreign progamers could tell that he wasnt on his A-game and that he has alot more potential than what we saw in the finals, also congratulations to bomber and mvp for their performances in code a, bomber thank you for taking time and helping me practice for my match vs marineking in the world championship, my only regret was that i felt i wasted your time because of my weak performance vs marineking and im sorry for that

last but not least thank you to slayers and mvp for that insane team match in the gstl finals... wow! that was one of the best team matchs that ive ever seen, congratulation to my good friend cella for coaching his team to another championship and congratulations to team mvp for showing all the doubters what they were made off, i love team MVP because of their hilarious introduction video(zzzzzz dongraegu and genius had the best intros ever) and you can tell that their team atmosphere is extremely good because they all have a good time when they're playing, im sure thats one of the reasons why they performed so well(aswell as being extremely talented players), it looked like they pushed each other and didnt want to dissapoint one another, it saddens me to not see DRG in code s because hes one of the top korean zergs in the world, but im sure hell be up there soon enough ^^ the foreign community came up with several nicknames for drg, one of the first ones was "the dong" but alot of fans got angry because thats jaedong's nickname so they then came up with " Don Raegu" which is a playoff on his name which basically means something like the mafia boss of spaghetti LOL

hope to see you guys soon ^_^~~, and i hope someone traslates this message : D "


OMG I have so much respect for TT1 right now.


I don't. What the hell, foreigners aren't as good as Koreans? Look at NASL, TSL, even GSL. Even the World Champs went down to an ace match.

TT1 needs to speak for himself, maybe he can't beat Koreans, but the likes of IdrA, Jinro, Thorzain, Naniwa, HuK say whats up.

I'm so sick of placing these Koreans on a pedestal. Sure it was like that in Brood War, but foreigners have shown that they can compete with them in SC2. And to have one of our own community speaking on behalf of everyone and totally undermining the entire scene like that is fucking atrocious.

I'm too pissed, I'm taking a break from this thread.


Dude... I know you apologized to TT1 and all, but you are absolutely delusional trying to prove that foreigner skill = Korean skill in SC2 with NASL, GSL, TSL, and the GSL WC.

Listen, I'm not trying to attack you, and I'm not trying to "place these Koreans on a pedestal", but how is quoting NASL GSL TSL and the GSL WC going to prove that foreigners are on the same level as the Korean players?

NASL & TSL: Online tournaments have no bearing on true skill, according to IdrA. He says you shouldn't lose to Koreans on KR -> NA being played on the NA server. I mention IdrA because he is the most vocal out of the top foreigners who experienced it firsthand of playing from Korea on the NA server. If you want, I can post a direct quote on SotG for reference. Have you played on the NA server from Korea to prove that IdrA is wrong? If IdrA is a weak point of reference, what would be a better one?

GSL WC: It went to the ace match... in an exhibition for no money. How exactly does that hold weight?

In the actual tournament: Dimaga vs Nestea was an awesome series, but he got rolled by San 3-1 in the next round. (Note: Dimaga was the only person on the World All-Stars to beat a Korean in a BO3 or BO5 there - and it was the first round.)

GSL: Huk, Jinro, Ret, Haypro, IdrA, TLO are the only foreigners to play in Code A or higher. Code A and Code S have gotten much harder since Ret, TLO, and IdrA left. If you disagree with this, please show objective results to disprove it.

It's one thing to show love for the foreigner scene, but the truth can hurt. There's no need to attack people for stating it and they were not trying to rub it in our faces. I think you are paranoid in thinking TT1 or the GOM director were being arrogant - I thought they were telling universally truths in terms of foreigner vs Korean skill level...

razy
Profile Joined February 2010
Russian Federation899 Posts
May 25 2011 18:10 GMT
#491
uhm, personally i find most of GSL matches hella boring so arguments of a "korean players are much better than non-koreans the price pool is small and stuff" kind look pretty unconvincing.

The pretty obvious part is: who the heck will want to travel to Korea to play for 1 month so he gets a maximum of a $900 while u can get pretty much the same in EU\NA by playing a tone of local tourneys w/o spending 2k to move to Korea and some money for actually living there.

The only advantage of such a trip i see is being able to play with good players but u most likely will get to them somewhere in ro8. Add up Starcraft 2 being young game where the stability of any progamer (even the best one) is under question...

No offence but all this looks like GSL thinks they are doing a huge favor to non-korean progamers by inviting them to this event.
TDN
Profile Joined May 2011
United States133 Posts
May 26 2011 02:38 GMT
#492
So, it turns out that team Fnatic doesn't want to spend the travel and accommodation money for their players, instead blaming on short notice with the big tittle "The Problem with Korea".
KotaOnCue
Profile Joined September 2010
United States180 Posts
May 26 2011 05:13 GMT
#493
On May 26 2011 11:38 TDN wrote:
So, it turns out that team Fnatic doesn't want to spend the travel and accommodation money for their players, instead blaming on short notice with the big tittle "The Problem with Korea".


Considering that they are playing on a budget and sending their best players to a tournament that will cost them a lot more than what they'll make back (even if said players win) instead of sending them to local tournaments for far less money with more local exposure (more ad revenue) and more likely of a chance to get their investment and then some back in return, you're right, every team should definitely jump on this chance! *sarcasm :p*

Esports isn't a cash cow and what little money there is to make is better spent strengthening the local scene then there is increasing your "global presence" by shipping off to tournaments that won't make you any money, even in ad revenue. It just isn't a financially responsible thing for any team to do to try and get their players out to Korea where they can become a 1 and done and be completely forgotten about for a month.
"They say ignorance is bliss. Is it true?"
Aberu
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States968 Posts
May 26 2011 05:25 GMT
#494
On May 26 2011 02:25 PHC wrote:
GSL WC: It went to the ace match... in an exhibition for no money. How exactly does that hold weight?

In the actual tournament: Dimaga vs Nestea was an awesome series, but he got rolled by San 3-1 in the next round. (Note: Dimaga was the only person on the World All-Stars to beat a Korean in a BO3 or BO5 there - and it was the first round.)

GSL: Huk, Jinro, Ret, Haypro, IdrA, TLO are the only foreigners to play in Code A or higher. Code A and Code S have gotten much harder since Ret, TLO, and IdrA left. If you disagree with this, please show objective results to disprove it.


Just to correct you, TT1 made it to the RO8 as well, and if he had been bracketed against San, I think we might have seen a different outcome. Instead he gets bracketed against the terran with the most unique playstyle, and one who used that playstyle to make it to the finals consistently in Korea multiple times. He played against someone who plays different than all other terrans, and dominates with it.
srsly
TDN
Profile Joined May 2011
United States133 Posts
May 26 2011 07:05 GMT
#495
On May 22 2011 02:46 heatly wrote:
I would say inca is atleast on par if not better in some aspects (PvP) as Naniwa. Inca lost to the top zerg in the world (or one of) in the finals having one bad match doesn't make you bad. IMO Nestea would wipe the floor naniwa in a LAN setting. I guess will have to see Naniwa has a good chance of taking MLG Columbus and I believe I read or heard some where that Naniwa would take a GSL spot if the opportunity arose.


Funny how a player that won a 5k dollar tournament and is suddenly being compared in every thread to top Code S.
Juke290
Profile Joined March 2011
Egypt316 Posts
May 26 2011 08:23 GMT
#496
On May 22 2011 02:31 Timerly wrote:
I don't know why the guy is all like "KR > world" after the KR vs world match, TSL and NASL results etc. when it comes to the S seeds vs MLG CB seeds.

Then about the declined invites, the tournament takes 3 weeks and clashes with MLG, something like that should be announced about 2-3 months in advance to be considered by the teams.
MLG plays through a MUCH larger grid in a couple of days. Guess what, you can't televise every match there but maybe that's a good thing? Just an idea...snarf.


Not really fair to compare, MLG is not just starcraft 2, while GomTV operates around Starcraft 2, they need to have content flowing and have matches being played.

But of course it would be great to see GomTV plan and publicly announce these events sooner.
sandyph
Profile Joined September 2010
Indonesia1640 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 03:41:20
May 27 2011 03:29 GMT
#497
On May 22 2011 02:21 DivinO wrote:
There is a notable difference between seeds for MLG and a seed for GSL?

Explain, please.


since all the 'foreigner' seems to care about is the prize pool

losing 2 games in Code S will give you the same money as finishing 4th in MLG (~$1400) which require you win most games

and dont talk about cost since flight and accomodation is paid by GSL/MLG and you would still need to eat whether you're in Korea or USA

so in a sense, the 4 seed the Korean got for MLG is worst than the code S seed the foreigner will get



On May 22 2011 03:01 AndreiDaGiant wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 22 2011 03:00 Bear4188 wrote:
I find it amusing that he says MLG champion doesn't deserve code S and then you look at the past MLG champions.

HuK: currently residing in code S
IdrA: GSL Open and code S participant until he left Korea
Jinro: two-time GSL semifinalist
Naniwa: ???




That is a really good point...


HuK: drop down to Up & Down after getting 0-2-ed in group
IdrA: left for easier competition in NA
Jinro: down to code A
Naniwa: ????

Put quote here for readability
PHC
Profile Joined March 2011
United States472 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-27 17:09:45
May 27 2011 17:08 GMT
#498
On May 26 2011 14:25 Aberu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2011 02:25 PHC wrote:
GSL WC: It went to the ace match... in an exhibition for no money. How exactly does that hold weight?

In the actual tournament: Dimaga vs Nestea was an awesome series, but he got rolled by San 3-1 in the next round. (Note: Dimaga was the only person on the World All-Stars to beat a Korean in a BO3 or BO5 there - and it was the first round.)

GSL: Huk, Jinro, Ret, Haypro, IdrA, TLO are the only foreigners to play in Code A or higher. Code A and Code S have gotten much harder since Ret, TLO, and IdrA left. If you disagree with this, please show objective results to disprove it.


Just to correct you, TT1 made it to the RO8 as well, and if he had been bracketed against San, I think we might have seen a different outcome. Instead he gets bracketed against the terran with the most unique playstyle, and one who used that playstyle to make it to the finals consistently in Korea multiple times. He played against someone who plays different than all other terrans, and dominates with it.


There is no need to correct me. TT1 did not beat a Korean in a BO3 or BO5 in the GSL WC. He beat a foreigner to get to the RO 8. Click on Week 1

Also, hypotheticals between a Korean vs. a foreigner for convenience should really be avoided. What if TT1 faced off against MVP? MC? And what if he did face San? He beat White-Ra a few days before. It is much easier to base relative skill based on actual results.

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