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On May 22 2011 18:06 oo inflame oo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 17:55 eggs wrote:On May 22 2011 17:46 pieman819 wrote:On May 22 2011 17:42 BackSideAttack wrote:On May 22 2011 17:27 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 17:15 eggs wrote:On May 22 2011 16:10 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote:
hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for. and we saw the foreigners dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament. what? only TT1 and DIMAGA made it to the RO8, and both lost there. 6 of the top 8 were Korean and all 4 of the final 4 were Korean. how is that foreigner domination? Perhaps, if you were literate you'd know that dominated is an adjective meaning destroyed or crushed. His comment fully implies that he is literate...You, I'm not quite sure about. Nope, the way it is used in that sentance is to state that the foreigners were the ones that were dominated. If it had been "and we saw the foreigners dominate in the Korea vs the world tournament" it would work they way you are thinking. oh, i must've misunderstood it that way. i would've said "and we saw the foreigners WERE dominated in the Korea vs the world tournament" to make that point. inflame's wording can be taken both ways -_- I'm assuming English isn't your native language, which is no biggie. Dominated is the past participle of dominate, so the 'were' is superfluous. If read correctly, the statement "and we saw the foreigners dominated" can only be taken one way. Cheers 
You dominated
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On May 22 2011 18:21 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 18:01 eggs wrote:On May 22 2011 17:58 gregnog wrote:On May 22 2011 15:50 pieman819 wrote:On May 22 2011 15:41 gregnog wrote:
Its pretty simple. Its a joke to spend that much time for such little benefit. Almost no screen time for your sponsors/team, and the only way of making real money is making like top 8 of Code S? There are plenty of Non-Koreans who can consistently compete in the GSL, all of our big names could. But why would they give up 2+ months of there life after spending thousands, and at the same time giving up every other competition? Literally the only positive result would be getting top 2 or 3. Even being the best player in the world you simply can't expect to do that.
Why is this so hard for some people to understand? Its not like every foreigner is shaking in fear, its just not smart to go to Korea. Why are people like you still not reading the thread where it is explained over an over that even if you lose all your code S group games you get the same money as 4th place MLG. MLG 1 Weekend of expenses and loss of other competitions GSL If seeded into S- 1 month of expenses and loss of other competitions If seeded into A- 2 months of expenses and loss of other competitions It's simple math. Unless your name is MC/MVP/Nestea, its not economical or logical to compete in Korea. Even more so on the sponsor side of pro gaming. Do you think your sponsor cares about you getting some kind of tiny prize as your consolation for losing your Code S games? Its about marketing. 1 month assumes you're making it to the Finals, in which case you're winning a LOT more money. it only takes 1 day to lose in the RO32, <1 week to lose in the RO16. You only make "a LOT more money" in the finals of code S. Most of the spots offered by GOM to potential MLG top finishers are for code A ... which is kinda the "amateur league" when you look at the pay. Obviously no one will take that chance, because it means a lot of risk for a small reward and if you are good enough to qualify for a code S spot you have one month with "nothing to do" inbetweem GSL seasons. It simply isnt economic or practical to move back and forth that often, so Korea is unattractive and the reason is the long term tournaments. The "super tournament" is just a filler tournament between GSL seasons, but the scale and organization sucks. Koreans may be - on average - better than non-Koreans, but the fact is that the "best of the rest" can still beat them. I would dearly love to see those top Koreans in a "LAN tournament" where they have to play tons of games against good players. MLG Columbus will be the first real test, although the arguments raised on SotG are valid as well and they shouldnt get the "royal treatment" they are getting now.
Winning MLG gives a free spot in Code S right? That is so much more of a privilege and reward than being in pool play, I'd say a Code A spot is too.
As aforementioned by TT1, the training you'd get from a month in Korea is invaluable. Why don't people focus on that aspect? Since when is being a pro gamer all about making money, instead of being the best you can be. Besides, going to Korea for a month will enable you to perform better and make more money when you come back to the states or Europe.
Look at idra and Jinro-- both trained in Korea and both won MLGs. Playing in Craft cups and the like is nice and all, but it can't be compared to experience one would gain from competing in the GSL and training with the best players.
And to touch on my first point, making into Code A is arguably harder than winning MLG, and making into Code S definitely is. The money may not be a lot more rewarding than staying and competing in your home country, but the implications and prestige of being in Code A / Code S definitely is.
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Can you blame them? Why would they leave Europe / NA and travel to South Korea to play the best of the best, decreasing their chances of winning.
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The idea that 2-3 weeks notice is too short is reasonable, same with it clashing with MLG and Dreamhack.
The message TT1 tries to send across however is truly pathetic, he really makes it sound like all foreigners feel inferior and are too afraid to step up to the challenge. I'm not saying he's wrong but if he's not I fear for the foreign SC2 scene, we'll be left behind(once again) but this time due to lack of dedication and a drive to compete. The big prize pools at MLG and Dreamhack will be out of reach for foreigners a year from now and not even the lag advantage at NASL will be enough when the gap gets big enough. SC2 may be popular and people will still get sponsors and make money off coaching etc. we won't be able to compete.
Our only hope lies with few individuals like Naniwa who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty and isn't in it for short term monetary gains but to be the best.
Then again perhaps TT1 isn't the elected spokesperson for the collective foreign Pro community and only speaks from his personal point of view.
As long as there are Naniwas there is hope.
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Everyone saying that the koreans will just make the gap bigger if people dont play in Korea are wrong.
The gap is closing very quickly these days, and thats due to the fact that its not the ability of players thats the difference, its the training behind the skill. In brood war, people did not practice as hard as the koreans. As has been seen lately the foreigners are training harder, longer and far more organised than during the brood war days.
Providing the current trend keeps going, then there will be limited/no gap sometime in the future. Korean culture is fun, but hard to adapt to. There is limited english in Korea, mostly due to shyness of the people than ability. And the food and what not is an acquired taste. Some people simply wont be able to adapt to Korea. Other than that the winters are terribly cold and its not the easiest place to get around.
I do love Seoul.. Its been good to me. But I can understand why people are very hesitant to go.
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On May 22 2011 18:28 oo inflame oo wrote: ... ... And to touch on my first point, making into Code A is arguably harder than winning MLG, and making into Code S definitely is. The money may not be a lot more rewarding than staying and competing in your home country, but the implications and prestige of being in Code A / Code S definitely is.
I sincerely doubt making it into code A is harder than winning a MLG. The only MLG winner who hasn't been in code S is Naniwa, and I don't think anyone would believe he'd have a hard time making code A. Into code S? That's harder to tell, but three of the four MLG winners made it there and the fourth one hasn't tried yet.
Edit: I don't think  this guy's gonna be winning a MLG any time soon, but he did make code A...
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On May 22 2011 18:36 FXOpen wrote:
Everyone saying that the koreans will just make the gap bigger if people dont play in Korea are wrong.
The gap is closing very quickly these days, and thats due to the fact that its not the ability of players thats the difference, its the training behind the skill. In brood war, people did not practice as hard as the koreans. As has been seen lately the foreigners are training harder, longer and far more organised than during the brood war days.
Well TT1 is saying the gap has gotten bigger since launch, I just took his word for it since he obviously knows more about it than me.
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On May 22 2011 18:28 oo inflame oo wrote: ... ... And to touch on my first point, making into Code A is arguably harder than winning MLG, and making into Code S definitely is. The money may not be a lot more rewarding than staying and competing in your home country, but the implications and prestige of being in Code A / Code S definitely is.
There is absolutely no freaking way getting into Code A is harder than winning MLG. That's stupid. If you had said winning Code A you could have a point but please...
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Well it's far from solving the issue, but we are hosting tournaments in Korea now. Still way more tournies in NA//EU however. But between that, Code A, and the FXO events I think it's a start towards getting more money into the Korean scene and helping with this problem.
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On May 22 2011 18:53 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 18:28 oo inflame oo wrote: ... ... And to touch on my first point, making into Code A is arguably harder than winning MLG, and making into Code S definitely is. The money may not be a lot more rewarding than staying and competing in your home country, but the implications and prestige of being in Code A / Code S definitely is.
There is absolutely no freaking way getting into Code A is harder than winning MLG. That's stupid. If you had said winning Code A you could have a point but please...
i wouldnt be so sure...it took a player like bomber 4 or 5 season to get in ? yeah...
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On May 22 2011 16:07 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 16:04 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 15:34 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 15:31 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 14:58 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:53 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 14:31 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 14:15 Subversion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote:
TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players Again, you keep speaking for everyone and making these sweeping statements. I really think you need to stop pretending you're the mouthpiece of the foreign community and speak for yourself. I really think a lot of foreigners who haven't even been to Korea, e.g. TSL3 finalists Naniwa and Thorzain, would not say that they can "never win consistently vs the top players". Being a pro player doesn't let you speak for everyone. The only person you can speak for is yourself, period. im not being a mouthpiece im just being honest, if you want to live in ur lil fictitious fairy land then be my guest You say you're "just being honest" but what you're spouting is your opinion and nothing more. You don't have tournament results to back this up. The few times we have seen some of our top foreigners go up against Koreans, they're performed very well. What evidence do you have to back your claims? You say I'm in a "fictitious fairy land" while you're the one sitting up there on some high horse making claims about other players abilities, which you have no right to do, nor any real basis on which to do that. Being a pro player doesn't exempt you from actually having to make a good argument. We're not just going to take everything you say as gospel when all actual evidence is contradictory to what you're saying. but wouldnt i have more credibility than you? if nony were to make the exact same statements that i just made would you have believed him? also you say i have no tournament results but you should take a closer look at this list: http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./my evidence is my word, and your evidence is based off of 1 tournament(tsl where the only foreigner who was competitive vs the koreans was thorzain)competitive , were both kinda turning in circles so ill give u the win Hey man look, I like you and I have no problem with you. I like Nony too, lol. I don't think you're like this uncredible person in the community or anything, as a progamer I value your opinions and insights, and you're rather vocal and I often agree with the things you say. I just can't help getting defensive of our players, and I guess I have a fair measure of "Western pride" if you can call it that. I just think there's this perception that these Koreans are these godlike players and while I think it was true in BW, I don't really think its applying in SC2. It's not just the TSL, its NASL and also even GSL, including the World Championships (where you yourself held your own!). I just think we need to stand up and say bring it Koreans, we can take you on and we can win. And I feel like this is true. The Korean forum translations we always see are of Koreans acting as if they're really superior and blaming stuff like latency and other extraneous crap on every loss to a foreigner. I just think we need to be proud and confident, and not say "yes, we know you're better than us..." and reinforce that belief. Anyways I do apologise if I sounded aggressive, I guess its just a touchy subject for me. Starcraft nationalism or something, hehe. I wish you the best of luck in the future  na im sorry too i always take everything way too personally, im sure that every foreigner shares the same sentiments as you.. including me but i was only trying to speak honestly and most of the time when that happens i come off as being over-agressive, sorry about that<3 LOL its hilarious how many times i paused my prison break episode just to come on tl so i could hit the refresh button endlessly, kinda reminded me of the old tl days where id get into flamewars with idra and we would both sit on the thread hitting f5 every second... AAAHHH good times haha yeah, I get all like riled up and into and spam F5, then I start feeling bad 'cause I generally hate arguing with anyone, lol. <3 Also, you're STILL watching prison break? That show was awesome like 5 years ago dude :D i started watching season 1 yesterday, im up to episode 12
im actually kinda jealous, wish i could go back and experience the awesomeness of season 1 =/
lol /derail thread
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GSL qualifiers are harder than GSL Code A IMO.... The conditions, the noise, the packed room... The GSL/MLG tradeup upsets me the most because people dont get to experience the qualifiers, which are a fantastic experience for any gamer, as well as hugely challenging.. Because its not just 1 game in 1 day against 1 race....
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Maybe SC2 will die in Korea? :O
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In response to what Chae Jung Won said, I am apologetic for the community I am a part of. Although I cannot be sure of exactly his tone from the translation and it being on the internet, I wish the best for him and the GSL.
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Just one thing I want to put out there and ask -- people are saying that spending time in Korea is a great training opportunity, but is that really true? I mean, you might be able to argue that the level of competition in Korea is higher, but how does that actually help a foreigner in Korea train? You need to have people you can practice with and communicate with, don't you? The ladder may be better, but just playing ladder games constantly isn't necessarily going to make you better.
If there were enough foreigners in Korea that they could train together effectively, or if the foreign players could train with the teams already established in Korea (difficult due to language), then I could see that being really beneficial. I don't know, what do people think? I keep seeing that argument thrown out there, but I don't really understand the reasoning.
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This might just be me, but maybe foreign progamers see this a bit too grim? this could be your chance of a lifetime... I would have liked to see more foreigners into the GSL not only coz its GSL, but e-sports as a whole. I understand that this is a progamer job, but still.. You can see what it does for Jinro and Huk. Its a shame, but i guess there decision is final..
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Its amazing how every few weeks, there are threads about this and people argue about it like they really know the matter.
I remember Jinro once did answer on this. He repeatedly said its a completely personal choice, its not like you can say staying in Korea is 100% better or worse. It works for some people (Jinro, Huk) while for others it does not.
People need to stop bringing in statistics or reasoning, and also please stop comparing foreigners and Koreans. You can't just bring a few matches, tournaments and say someone is definitely better than others. Saying Naniwa is better than Inca is just ridiculous and premature.
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On May 22 2011 19:15 dormer wrote:
If there were enough foreigners in Korea that they could train together effectively, or if the foreign players could train with the teams already established in Korea (difficult due to language), then I could see that being really beneficial. I don't know, what do people think? I keep seeing that argument thrown out there, but I don't really understand the reasoning.
If you want to get all foreigners together in one house for them to play only against each other, then I don't see point in moving to Korea. There is already a house for European guys and a FXO house (is it operational?). Besides, I think that foreigners are already collaborating and practising with each other. Why would they move to Korea then?
You are all talking about moving to Korea like it is a baptism for all good players to become gods of sc2. I was watching recently Code A and S and both of these competitions weren't even close to TSL3 considering fun gained from watching the games.
One last thing, why we care so much about Koreans when we have such a bright and colourful future ahead of our own "foreign" scene? Events everywhere. People getting money from weekly tournaments, receiving a good amount of respect from the community. When it comes to Koreans, they don't help us and even make things more difficult. We share our replays - most tournaments release replays so we can become better, we invite Koreans gladly and they are having problems with recognising us as worthy players. Seriously, what's the big deal with Korea-love in SC2? It's not BW where everybody had to bow and pray to the Koreans for some kind of a skill-blessing. We should care more about our own neighbourhood because Koreans already do it.
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Didn't they invite people to the super tournament then reveal changes after they declined? where the players informed of the changes prior? I think the changes they are making to Code A / S Up & Down matches make it way more tempting.
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I can't believe people are arguing with TT1 about the skill gap. Seriously get a fucking grip. If you can't see it frankly you're delusional... using the one tournament, TSL3, as example as evidence it's close is objectively wrong.
On May 22 2011 16:22 garlicface wrote:
The IdrA of now - when compared to other players - is far better than the IdrA of then. I think he got pretty lucky making Ro16 (you say 16 but wasn't it 8?). However, if he were to compete now then I would expect him to make Ro4 at least.
This is hilarious, you seriously think he would make the RO4 at LEAST??? What the hell are you going on about seriously? You're suggested IdrA improved but every Korean player stayed the same skill for some reason. When infact i think the Koreans have gone above and beyond IdrA's level. IdrA looks more impressive in tournaments because it's complete lesser opponents most of the time. He would not even get out of Code A imo.
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EPT
