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On May 22 2011 20:56 infinity2k9 wrote:I can't believe people are arguing with TT1 about the skill gap. Seriously get a fucking grip. If you can't see it frankly you're delusional... using the one tournament, TSL3, as example as evidence it's close is objectively wrong. Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 16:22 garlicface wrote:
The IdrA of now - when compared to other players - is far better than the IdrA of then. I think he got pretty lucky making Ro16 (you say 16 but wasn't it 8?). However, if he were to compete now then I would expect him to make Ro4 at least. This is hilarious, you seriously think he would make the RO4 at LEAST??? What the hell are you going on about seriously? You're suggested IdrA improved but every Korean player stayed the same skill for some reason. When infact i think the Koreans have gone above and beyond IdrA's level. IdrA looks more impressive in tournaments because it's complete lesser opponents most of the time. He would not even get out of Code A imo.
Idra proved that he could hold his own vs MC in dream invitational.
Honestly Koreans are not as far ahead of the European scene. Top Eu players are improving rapidly. The thing is the Korean format (Exclusive rights 1 match a week) really showcase the top level of these players and still you see players floating 400g 7 minutes into the game (Alicia).
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On May 22 2011 18:36 FXOpen wrote:
Everyone saying that the koreans will just make the gap bigger if people dont play in Korea are wrong.
The gap is closing very quickly these days, and thats due to the fact that its not the ability of players thats the difference, its the training behind the skill. In brood war, people did not practice as hard as the koreans. As has been seen lately the foreigners are training harder, longer and far more organised than during the brood war days.
Providing the current trend keeps going, then there will be limited/no gap sometime in the future. Korean culture is fun, but hard to adapt to. There is limited english in Korea, mostly due to shyness of the people than ability. And the food and what not is an acquired taste. Some people simply wont be able to adapt to Korea. Other than that the winters are terribly cold and its not the easiest place to get around.
I do love Seoul.. Its been good to me. But I can understand why people are very hesitant to go.
You do realize that the current SC2 Korean players aren't even the top talents that can be collected from all the "pro programmer pool" from Korea, right? Most of the top talents are still being scouted by the SC1 market. However, it's only a matter of time until SC2 is professionalized in Korea, and the market will switch from SC1 to SC2. Then what? Do you still think that the gap will disappear down the road? The bottom line is that the Korean e-sport is a step ahead of everywhere else that when the big money corporations start throwing down their resources and money, the foreign scene just won't be able to compete (aka, BW deja vu).
People need to realize that only reason GOMTV goes out of their way to "accomodate" the foreigners is because they need the foreign market to stay in business against competitions from KeSPA (and others) in a couple years. Let's be real. Do you think if Blizzard signs with the KeSPA, then Korea would give as much flip about the foriegn community as GOMTV is doing right now?
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I also wish to add that even if the foreign SC2 pros are training harder than in BW, that isn't saying much. That's a given considering the money floating around, people are far more likely to be able to play SC2 full time.
Perhaps the training is better organized but it's hardly enough compared to the pro house environment in Korea. I mean, we have 3(?) foreign pro houses as of now. One being ROOTs which TT1 says is more of a cool place to hang out and chill at, one being the Swedish one which could very well be the same, it's too soon to tell. The last one FXO seems to be the most promising one and the one I'm excited about. Not because the big fat mansion but because there's a professional organization behind it who should be able to 'motivate' the players.
I mean five cool guys hanging out in a house is all fine and well, and it would be the dream for any gamer for surebut the net result is quite uncertain. I'm sure it beats sitting alone in an appartment but it can't compare to what they have going in Korea with coaches, schedules and whatnot.
In short, I believe in this new wave of professional training we apparently have in the west the day I see it. So far I haven't seen a thing.
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On May 22 2011 21:22 Eppa! wrote:
Honestly Koreans are not as far ahead of the European scene. Top Eu players are improving rapidly. The thing is the Korean format (Exclusive rights 1 match a week) really showcase the top level of these players and still you see players floating 400g 7 minutes into the game (Alicia).
That must mean Naniwa is the worst player ever after floating nearly 2500/1500 in the recent match vs Nada in the NASL? http://nasl.tv/Videos/naniwa-vs-nada-week-six-division-three game 2 at 31:57
... or maybe not?
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On May 22 2011 22:50 blackbrrd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 21:22 Eppa! wrote:
Honestly Koreans are not as far ahead of the European scene. Top Eu players are improving rapidly. The thing is the Korean format (Exclusive rights 1 match a week) really showcase the top level of these players and still you see players floating 400g 7 minutes into the game (Alicia). That must mean Naniwa is the worst player ever after floating nearly 2500/1500 in the recent match vs Nada in the NASL? http://nasl.tv/Videos/naniwa-vs-nada-week-six-division-three game 2 at 31:57 ... or maybe not?
How is that relevant in any way? My point was that currently is that Koreans aren't super gods doing bisu builds doing impeccable macro neither are foreign players. 7min and 30 min how is that even close? The gap is either small or non existent everybody makes a lot mistakes other than top level BW players and they are not playing SC2.
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On May 22 2011 12:45 gozima wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:19 TT1 wrote:On May 22 2011 12:10 Dawski wrote:
TT1 i love you and all but you gotta work on your communication haha. The way you made it sound in your response was that you are the representative of the entire foreigner community and that we all feel that we can't even compete in the first rounds of the tourney. Shouldve used better words like you did in your response with "enough of a skill difference to be a bad investment". Sometimes small things like that can piss people off when your trying to represent them.
and you have to admit but that world lineup that you said he was in denial about...was pretty fricken stacked and i also believe it would have a chance vs the top koreans ofc i was, the only players that would be able to compete vs koreans are the ones training in korea, all the other players would never be able to win consistently vs the top players If this trend continues [foreigners not being able to make any type of commitment to train in Korea], the SC2 scene will just end up being like the BW scene, with Korea dominating everyone. It kind of makes me sad. It's unfortunate that western pros see absolutely no incentive to compete with the best because of all the "easy" money that's available to them in the West.
Until eSports is viewed as a legitimate sport among foreigners, it's not going to change, because simply put no one is going to view pro-gaming with the seriousness required to train ~10-12 hours a day, 6-7 days a week. Even BW pro-gamers who used to do that, like IdrA, do not do anything close to it for SC 2 and I doubt anyone in the foreigner's scene does.
But legitimizing eSports is what leagues like NASL and IPL are trying to do. It's a slow process, however, and we're not even at the stage of televised competitions yet. SC 2 is huge for Western eSports, but it'll still take a lot of time and effort before this community becomes something other than the niche community that it currently is, with most of its viewership restricted to TL and HD & Husky's subscribers.
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TT1 speaking the truth in this thread....online results mean nothing and even with the lag disadvantage and having to play their games at 4 am most Koreans in the NASL are near the top of their groups. If that doesn't tell you there's a skill gap what does? If a foreigner manages to win MLG or Dreamhack with the koreans invited maybe there'll be an argument but if Koreans win again on lan then hopefully we can shut down this argument once and for all.
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On May 22 2011 21:22 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 20:56 infinity2k9 wrote:I can't believe people are arguing with TT1 about the skill gap. Seriously get a fucking grip. If you can't see it frankly you're delusional... using the one tournament, TSL3, as example as evidence it's close is objectively wrong. On May 22 2011 16:22 garlicface wrote:
The IdrA of now - when compared to other players - is far better than the IdrA of then. I think he got pretty lucky making Ro16 (you say 16 but wasn't it 8?). However, if he were to compete now then I would expect him to make Ro4 at least. This is hilarious, you seriously think he would make the RO4 at LEAST??? What the hell are you going on about seriously? You're suggested IdrA improved but every Korean player stayed the same skill for some reason. When infact i think the Koreans have gone above and beyond IdrA's level. IdrA looks more impressive in tournaments because it's complete lesser opponents most of the time. He would not even get out of Code A imo. Idra proved that he could hold his own vs MC in dream invitational. Honestly Koreans are not as far ahead of the European scene. Top Eu players are improving rapidly. The thing is the Korean format (Exclusive rights 1 match a week) really showcase the top level of these players and still you see players floating 400g 7 minutes into the game (Alicia).
Leave Alicia alone and let him build his nexus.
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On May 22 2011 15:50 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 12:17 Tachion wrote:On May 22 2011 12:04 Werk wrote:
hard to beat the koreans? theres more cash to be made in EU and NA than there is in korea, why go to korea for a month when your just going to lose to much cash... the rejections surprise people? the prize $ rankings beg to differ http://ehcg.djgamblore.com./ Exactly this. I don't understand how people are trying to argue that the prize money in Korea is less than the rest of the world. Lets not even consider MVP, MC, or Nestea who won multiple GSLs. Just look at fruitdealer, winning once then never winning anything significant there after. He still made 3 times as much as the next highest foreigner so far. And people like Rain, Inca, July, who only got to the final once made comparable amount to the highest foreigner. Now if you were to win, there is no argument that your prize pool can be matched by anything outside of Korea. But lets face it, no foreigners (well more so their team and sponsors) are confident enough that they can even make it into top 4 or finals, let alone winning the GSL. So to them, its definitely true that the prize money in GSL isn't worth sacrificing all the other tournaments for.
the price winning list is a very good example you should stay out of korea.
the only koreans that have won more than say fenix are GSL-finalists and ace, wich won almost all his price money in IEM :D
are you not good enough to be sure you will make it to the finals, say MVP and MC, you should stay out of korea. is there any doubt a player like tester would have made more than 11k if he lived and played in na/eu?
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On May 22 2011 21:22 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 20:56 infinity2k9 wrote:I can't believe people are arguing with TT1 about the skill gap. Seriously get a fucking grip. If you can't see it frankly you're delusional... using the one tournament, TSL3, as example as evidence it's close is objectively wrong. On May 22 2011 16:22 garlicface wrote:
The IdrA of now - when compared to other players - is far better than the IdrA of then. I think he got pretty lucky making Ro16 (you say 16 but wasn't it 8?). However, if he were to compete now then I would expect him to make Ro4 at least. This is hilarious, you seriously think he would make the RO4 at LEAST??? What the hell are you going on about seriously? You're suggested IdrA improved but every Korean player stayed the same skill for some reason. When infact i think the Koreans have gone above and beyond IdrA's level. IdrA looks more impressive in tournaments because it's complete lesser opponents most of the time. He would not even get out of Code A imo. Idra proved that he could hold his own vs MC in dream invitational. Honestly Koreans are not as far ahead of the European scene. Top Eu players are improving rapidly. The thing is the Korean format (Exclusive rights 1 match a week) really showcase the top level of these players and still you see players floating 400g 7 minutes into the game (Alicia).
its things like this that cause conflict whenever a discussion like this starts, my definition of a top player might not be the same as yours.. i dont consider alicia being nowhere near one the best players in korea
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EU/NA has many players who could be Code A/low-mid Code S level. Players like Idra, Naniwa, Sen, Select, Kiwikaki, White Ra and others definitely could hold their own in Korea at a similar level to where Huk is now.
But, the elite few at the pinnacle of Code S; MVP, Nestea, MC and MKP and considerably better and more consistant than any foreigners.
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On May 23 2011 04:52 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 21:22 Eppa! wrote:On May 22 2011 20:56 infinity2k9 wrote:I can't believe people are arguing with TT1 about the skill gap. Seriously get a fucking grip. If you can't see it frankly you're delusional... using the one tournament, TSL3, as example as evidence it's close is objectively wrong. On May 22 2011 16:22 garlicface wrote:
The IdrA of now - when compared to other players - is far better than the IdrA of then. I think he got pretty lucky making Ro16 (you say 16 but wasn't it 8?). However, if he were to compete now then I would expect him to make Ro4 at least. This is hilarious, you seriously think he would make the RO4 at LEAST??? What the hell are you going on about seriously? You're suggested IdrA improved but every Korean player stayed the same skill for some reason. When infact i think the Koreans have gone above and beyond IdrA's level. IdrA looks more impressive in tournaments because it's complete lesser opponents most of the time. He would not even get out of Code A imo. Idra proved that he could hold his own vs MC in dream invitational. Honestly Koreans are not as far ahead of the European scene. Top Eu players are improving rapidly. The thing is the Korean format (Exclusive rights 1 match a week) really showcase the top level of these players and still you see players floating 400g 7 minutes into the game (Alicia). Leave Alicia alone and let him build his nexus.
Double expanding with 3 gate?
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On May 22 2011 21:23 jellyjello wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2011 18:36 FXOpen wrote:
Everyone saying that the koreans will just make the gap bigger if people dont play in Korea are wrong.
The gap is closing very quickly these days, and thats due to the fact that its not the ability of players thats the difference, its the training behind the skill. In brood war, people did not practice as hard as the koreans. As has been seen lately the foreigners are training harder, longer and far more organised than during the brood war days.
Providing the current trend keeps going, then there will be limited/no gap sometime in the future. Korean culture is fun, but hard to adapt to. There is limited english in Korea, mostly due to shyness of the people than ability. And the food and what not is an acquired taste. Some people simply wont be able to adapt to Korea. Other than that the winters are terribly cold and its not the easiest place to get around.
I do love Seoul.. Its been good to me. But I can understand why people are very hesitant to go.
You do realize that the current SC2 Korean players aren't even the top talents that can be collected from all the "pro programmer pool" from Korea, right? Most of the top talents are still being scouted by the SC1 market. However, it's only a matter of time until SC2 is professionalized in Korea, and the market will switch from SC1 to SC2. Then what? Do you still think that the gap will disappear down the road? The bottom line is that the Korean e-sport is a step ahead of everywhere else that when the big money corporations start throwing down their resources and money, the foreign scene just won't be able to compete (aka, BW deja vu). People need to realize that only reason GOMTV goes out of their way to "accomodate" the foreigners is because they need the foreign market to stay in business against competitions from KeSPA (and others) in a couple years. Let's be real. Do you think if Blizzard signs with the KeSPA, then Korea would give as much flip about the foriegn community as GOMTV is doing right now?
Talent is good and all but what makes Flash and Jaedong be who they are is the immense amount of training they put in daily. I don't believe for a minute that foreign players are less talented than the koreans, but rather that they have had a disadvantage in infrastructure and support all along during BW.. things are changing with SC2 though. And FYI, the big money corporations outside of korea can outspend those inside korea 100 to 1 if not more, if e-sports continue to grow the way it's been growing in the last year.
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Can't really compare Foreign Pros directly to Korean Pros.
The best of West are already full time active in SC2. The best(S class, A class, B class) Koreans are still playing a 2D game.
So it's too early to say who is better. You still need to beat the final boss ^.~
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In a nutshell GSL > MLG? I don't think the games of the GSL are so much higher skillwise... correct me if I'm wrong but isn't GSL a total cheesefest lately? Let's see how the koreans will do in the next MLG :D
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I find it funny that anyone would seriously think Korea isn't better than everywhere else. The argument is how far ahead they are, not whether they are. Personally I think even Code A is higher competition than any foreign tournament, though there are some foreigners that absolutely could compete.
It's a shame that the GSL format doesn't really work for those not living there full time though. I'd like to see more tournaments like the GSL WC. Perhaps a better partnership for MLG and GSL would be having top MLG players invited over for a week long tourney or something. Heck, you could even have an "MLG team" for a short team league; that could actually work very well. Just make sure to match them up against ZeNeX first so we know they can win at least once. . .
Or perhaps GSL should just stop having their prizes so top heavy. Make it so that getting to Ro16 is actually worthwhile and you'll see foreigners who maybe don't think they'd have a great chance against NesTea or MVP but could do decently against someone like San show up to make some money.
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It's just unreasonable for GOM to assume players can come over to korea for over a month.
I expect zero foreigners to come to korea in the near future except the code S invite from MLG. There is simply no reason to play in korea over US or europe as it's much easier making money outside of korea. Korea doesn't have higher prices but does have much higher competition so why would foreigners bother??
I can't understand why Jinro and Huk even bother to stay except for pride and perhaps training.
It's great that the koreans play in events like MLG and NASL though. I'm afraid they might dominate next MLG though and truly widen the gap between foreigners and koreans.
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The question is why should GSL babysit all the foreigners? If GSL has no foreigners, I will still watch it since it fits my time zone. Even in other sports there is no reason for the league to specially crater for forgeiners, it's the sponsors and team's decision whether to bring in forgeiners.
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On May 23 2011 09:34 Turbo.Tactics wrote:
In a nutshell GSL > MLG? I don't think the games of the GSL are so much higher skillwise... correct me if I'm wrong but isn't GSL a total cheesefest lately? Let's see how the koreans will do in the next MLG :D
GSL is much higher skillwise than MLG, it's not even close. Cheesing is legitimate strategy but regardless there's no more cheesing in GSL than any other tournaments.
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I thought everyone had the same opinion on this subject. Korea has a way bigger talent pool where the US/EU has a more reserved talent pool meaning only the top 20 of each region can compete against the top 60 of Korea .
Disclaimer: The numbers I used are completely based of my opinion and represent no real value.
Back on topic, I feel like tt1 summed it up perfectly. I do not believe that esports is at a point where just showing up at a live event can make up for the costs of travel and shelter without a decent size prize pool. So, any Korean tournaments become a huge risk/reward type thing.
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EPT
