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On May 03 2011 16:46 Etra wrote:
Maybe they do not want to for personal reasons and you should shut the fuck up.
And what personal reason can possibly preclude their wish to release said information? It's either because they feel they make too much (same reason why some rich people choose to keep a low-profile), or they are embarrassed of what they make.
If you're just Mr. Average Joe in Acme corporation I'm pretty sure you'd be able to give some sort of figure that, while not being explicit, gives a general idea of the expected wages. Something like 3.5 to 4 grand a month, you know, while being unremarkable, is quite acceptable.
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On May 03 2011 16:58 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 16:46 Etra wrote:
Maybe they do not want to for personal reasons and you should shut the fuck up. And what personal reason can possibly preclude their wish to release said information? It's either because they feel they make too much (same reason why some rich people choose to keep a low-profile), or they are embarrassed of what they make. If you're just Mr. Average Joe in Acme corporation I'm pretty sure you'd be able to give some sort of figure that, while not being explicit, gives a general idea of the expected wages. Something like 3.5 to 4 grand a month, you know, while being unremarkable, is quite acceptable.
Well another reason could be that their team wants them to keep their salary a secret. It is good for the teams if the players don´t know how much an equally skilled player gets on another team, the prices (salary) go down this way. And since the teams are the backbone to the pro player none wants to be the first to stab them in the back and possibly be "blacklisted" from the teams in Sc2.
If that is the case it is pretty sad since the players lose on this agreement and some teams can continue to pay low wages compared to other teams with equally skilled players. Since e-sport is so new and volatile as a market I think pros are afraid of challenging the paying teams. In the long run this is not durable though. The wages will be made public, it is only a matter of time.
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On May 03 2011 16:20 Mise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 15:42 FawkingGoomba wrote:
Aside from salaried players like Idra, FXO, or very top europeans, I doubt anyone is making more than your typical 9-5 job. To say that people are making more than 100k/year is ridiculous. MC and NesTea have made 100k+ already, from price moeny alone and it hasn't even been a whole year. MVP will probably join them soon along with maybe MarineKing and FruitDealer. It wouldn't even be impossible for MC to make 200k in the first year of SC2.
Sorry, I meant outside of Korea. Assumed we were only talking about outside of that, seeing as salaries of some BW pros are known.
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On May 03 2011 16:54 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 16:26 5unrise wrote:On May 03 2011 08:16 Holcan wrote:
good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less. What's your evidence? Or just reasoning even? Don't just pull numbers off your ass and expect people to believe a year of managing a sponorship seeking sc2 team 2 years of managing a sponsor seeking wc3 team 5 years of administrative work on the semi professional level in wc3, so I was in constant contact with players like Empire.Kas, Thorzain, etc. I dont care if you believe me or not, but my numbers are the closest you are going to get in this thread.
'sponsorship seeking'
the people who actually found sponsors might have a better idea of what kind of money is there.
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On May 03 2011 17:18 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 16:54 Holcan wrote:On May 03 2011 16:26 5unrise wrote:On May 03 2011 08:16 Holcan wrote:
good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less. What's your evidence? Or just reasoning even? Don't just pull numbers off your ass and expect people to believe a year of managing a sponorship seeking sc2 team 2 years of managing a sponsor seeking wc3 team 5 years of administrative work on the semi professional level in wc3, so I was in constant contact with players like Empire.Kas, Thorzain, etc. I dont care if you believe me or not, but my numbers are the closest you are going to get in this thread. 'sponsorship seeking' the people who actually found sponsors might have a better idea of what kind of money is there.
People are constantly seeking sponsorships, even if they already have support, whats your point?
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this is a very sensitive topic and I would advise every progamer to keep their salaries for themselves. People tend to be jealous or think "I can do this too - play sc2 all day and get paid for it, lulz". I follwed the wc3 scene for many years and when the salaries of the topplayers became public shit got insane.
MYM (back then having a very potent investor behind them) started to pay their players extremly high salaries and if other Clans wanted to keep their keyplayers they also had to pay very well. BUT the pricepool of leagues and tournaments did not rise and I doubt the sponsors suddely paid twice the cash. Another negative aspect were the expactations from midlevel players. If in one year they played for hardware support and maybe a bonus if achieved something, in the other year they also wanted to get paid and "please not under 300/month". Some smaller/unexperienced Clans made those deals with players that did well for one month or so. In the end it came how it had to come. Clans could not pay their players any more or had to close their doors completly.
Whats my point? Don`t blow up a Bubble. If you are a player who is confident in his skill/determination go ahead and train. If you do well Clans will contact you and at some point you will be offered a contract. This is the point were you can start thinking about money but not before.
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On May 03 2011 17:40 zul wrote:
Another negative aspect were the expactations from midlevel players. If in one year they played for hardware support and maybe a bonus if achieved something, in the other year they also wanted to get paid and "please not under 300/month".
You can't eat steelseries keyboards, so yes, I'd say that is a completely fair request.
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On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works.
Please dont make stuff up, we really dont appreciate that
They do get money through views from ads. Idra said so on his stream.
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One thing to always keep in mind is that it's not always about money. I bet a lot of players don't care about making the best dollar/hour when investing time into a video game. They do it because they love the competition. Everyone does something in their lives that doesn't make money, right?
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I read quite a lot of the posts right now and I think, besides of all that speculation, people are missing two important points.
1) Viewer count of a stream or video doesn't mean ad viewer count. It depends on the region and the browser (features/security).
From the TL time zone voting, we know there are about 45% with American time zones on this site. This doesn't mean they all get ads or they are the same peole that watch the streams. But still it's at least an indicator that there might be only about 50% of the viewers that actually get ads.
And then there is the web browser. These days, browser addons like ad blockers, cross site scripting control and cross request policy control gets more and more popular due to security and privacy reasons.
The side effect of this is, that most advertisers use these mechanics for their ads, that are also used for abusing exploits and user tracking. More browser security and privacy also means the advertisers won't get a shot, as they are also (ab)using these mechanics.
2) It's not good just to watch or click ads because you think you do a favour to the advertisers.
They don't want people to watch or click their ads. They want people to buy their products.
The investment in ads has to pay off by their sold products. Not by the viewers or clicks somewhere.
So if you view and click ads but won't buy the product, that's a sign that advertisement doesn't work that way and they have to change it. Maybe put ads somewhere else, as stream viewers just watch or click but never buy.
Viewing and clicking but not buying the product breaks the system. It reduces the value of ads for the company and therefore they will likely reduce their spending on ads. As a result there will be less revenue for ad placement.
Not watching ads at all will keep that system and the value of ads as it is and additionally signal the advertisers, that there are people that don't want ads (for different reasons). And they have to think about further measures to get their products sold.(Like maybe don't lock your bootloader of the android device you want to sell and that's what customers are telling you since month and still you do it and still you're disappointed with the sales and so on)
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Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
User was warned for this post
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Probably like anything involving art and sport only the tippy top make the cash. How many awesome college athletes didn't make pro? Or got Pro but were on some minor league team paying them peanuts? I know a few being a halfway decent athlete myself in HS and even had a scholarship lined up but lets get real I wouldn't be able to study (accounting) thoroughly enough which has almost guaranteed decent salary if I get A's or you can go MBA route after and work for banks and make huge cash. Or one can become a doctor pharmacist or nurse where I don't know any unemployed doctors and make large guaranteed cash. No, they do gaming because they like it and some get lucky with a salaried team and sponsorship but it's exception rather than rule. I personally don't like those odds. Plus you have to wonder how much you'd really enjoy the game if it became work. As in 10 hrs a day arduous drilling.... I can't answer that but I'm sure some players lose the love.
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That is price winnings only. Not salary or sponsorships
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No one mentioned stuff like income taxes they have to pay from the money they earn? I think making money from gaming sounds better than it is. It's the same with online poker. 50 k a year sounds good for gaming/poker/etc but it's a lot less than the actual 50 k. You have to pay a sh*tload on taxes and you have to save up money for if you're old and stuff. I think a 'normal' job is always better or you have to be REALY good.
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Taxes are not bad when when you're self employed. Everything you do is a deduction almost which reduces your basis. e.g. I went to dinner to discuss gaming with x. Keep a journal for audit - all IRS can do is deny.
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On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
I guess it's just like any other job or career in entertainment. Many people's dreams are to become an actor or dancer or singer where their career could be cut short at any moment but they do it because it is what they love.
When you are passionate about SC2, playing for 12 hours a day, everyday isn't as bad as you think.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
They do it because they like it. Is that really so hard for you to understand? Why do you care if they don't live a 'normal' life? Most hobbies are a waste of time, yet people still participate in whatever the hell they want.
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I really don't anderstand why IdrA does not want to coach...
Because he could earn 150$/hour, and in my opinion it's much more than the potential money from tournaments. And it's also much more safe.
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300k/Year is a lot of money - The average person makes 40k/year. If you made 300k in one year playing a game - who cares if you spent the year not furthering your career. 300k/40k = 7.5 years of working a regular job.
Not that I imagine SC2 Pro gamers make that kind of money - but if you did and you made that money for 3-5 years , you'd be loaded and probably would never have to work for the rest of your life (if you were smart)
Also, not that I agree that becoming an SC2 pro gamer is a wise career choice - but if you're naturally good at the game it doesn't hurt to try and profit from your hobby. I think people seem to overlook the fact that most people are never going to be lawyers/doctors/CEOs of companies/etc. In fact, I doubt that 1% of the population of SC2 gamers will ever make upwards of 100k/year. These jobs are rare and most people are either born into them , work their asses off for half of their lives for them and/or just get extremely lucky. The rest of us work menial jobs and pray that we don't get fired/laid off while we struggle to pay our bills. Stop talking like you're missing out on becoming a doctor when you play starcraft 2. Anybody that has the ambition to succeed on that level is not going to be held back by a video game, and they're certainly not reading this.
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On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand .... having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
Everything that you said is totally correct. But you have to keep in mind that a lot of player dream is to be a pro-gamer because they have a passion. They love video games and everybody wants to make a living of their passion. And you talk about the amount of money that they win etc, but remember that there is sooooo many athletes in the world that aren't paid that much but they keep doing it because they love it.
In my opinion, the thing that everybody should do is finish high school (I'm not sure if it's the correct term because I'm from Switzerland and I don't really know the exact word) so that at the end of their "career" they can transition to something else without being force to work in a supermarket the rest of their life.
The thing that need to change is the image that most of the people have of "e-sport", "video games" and that stuff. But it's so hard to change that, and to be honest in some aspect I understand their point of view. Right now there is so much addicted people, without any friends, dirty fat kids, that people tend to generalize.
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EPT
