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Really interesting to see how this thread has developed over the past month. I wouldn't necessarily call it informative, but interesting for sure. Out of all the posts it seems to me Destiny and Xeris have provided probably the most accurate information.
Personally, I don't see the big deal with salary transparency, although it's perfectly understandable when things like NDAs are involved. Even outside of progaming, it seems those who don't wish to share their salaries don't do it because their salaries fall outside of a comparable range or industry to whoever is asking them (ie an accountant may not share their salary with a full-time sears employee, but would be more inclined to with another accountant).
Was gonna post an opinion related to teams taking players from other teams, but it was a moot point after rereading what I had typed
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Ok, so based off of the information that we have so far we can lay out some basic guide lines. I live in the metropolitan area of Portland, OR. Portland on average costs 120% of the national average for rent and bills. I am going to ignore the +20% and just use that as a buffer.
A 2br apartment that is acceptable to live in is $600 a month, utilites are $50 a month, cable/internet is $120 a month, water/trash is 40 a month, 100 for cell phone. I pay about 300 a month in groceries plus I want a couple hundred for going out to dinner and movies and such.
600+50+120+40+100+300+200= $1400.
Including car insurance (100) and gas (50 a tank and 2x a month) the projected total that I would be looking to earn a month is 1600.
A streamer on J.tv gets 1c every 5 viewers. so if they get 1k viewers, they would get $2 per ad. If games last between 7 minutes and 30 minutes and average 15 minutes, then we can say we get 4 ads per hour or $8/hr per 1k viewers. This is the equivalent of a minimum wage.
A lower end pro (top masters, prolly gm) could charge $25-30 a lesson. The key to making money off of lessons is to actually set up lessons >.>.
I would not rely on making money from placing in tournaments. This is just bonus.
Salary- If you are on a team that gets a salary, then you are probably known well enough to fill your time with coaching. At this point you don't really need to worry about hitting $1600 a month. While I would like to know the graph of pro salaries, Non-top pros don't really apply for this.
Youtube/blip- In order to get a youtube partner account you need to have consistent videos with thousands of views, and a lot of subscribers. This generally comes from innovative videos, there are other places that will tell you how much youtubers make.
So we are going to look at 2 different revenue sources. First one is streaming- Obviously at $8 w/ consistent 1k viewers is something that we can't guarantee but it is a starting point.
100hrs a month- $800.
200hrs a month- target goal. So if we streamed for 200hrs a month (which is 50hrs per week or 7hrs per day average) we should hit our target of 1600 a month. This is the worst case scenario (obv getting 1k viewers is nice, but it is slower than 30 an hr)
$30/hr
55hrs per month- 1650 or our target goal. This would be 14-15 lessons a week or 2-3 a day (depending on schedules). If you can get a reputation for being a good coach getting 1-2 lessons a day is a possibility.
30hrs per month (1 lesson per day)- 900
So if we hit the minimum coaching sessions that we are looking for (900 a month) then we can fill in the other 700 with streaming. My first conclusion is that getting 1k viewers for 100hrs a month (5hrs a day/5 days a week) is probably going to be tough; If you are good enough to consider going pro at sc2 then this becomes easier to think about. Getting an average of 1 lesson per day is also going to be tough. I would recommend getting your name out there in as many areas as possible (youtube vids explaining builds and scenarios off of the top of my head). The good thing about these prospects is that if you are good enough to entertain the thought of going pro, then it shouldn't be hard to draw crowds with your play. 130hrs/month playing the game that you love and supporting yourself (barely) would be awesome too.
Final conclusion- It seems like it would be hard to get into the position of paying your way through sc. I wouldn't suggest anybody but the top 1% of masters even try it (even then, you shouldn't quit your job until you know this is going to work) and lower level pros should be fine making enough money if they stream and coach. That being said this does compound pretty nicely. I said that $2 per 1k views w/ an ave of 4 commercials would get $8/hr, destiny gets 3k viewers fairly consistently and IdrA shoots up to 8+k viewers whenever he plays. At $64 an hour to stream, I don't know why IdrA doesn't stream more (makes me wonder if we are off because of other factors). Coaching will go even easier; First of all, top coaches make between 50-70 and sometimes even more. Plus the ease of filling your times as a coach like iNcontrol you can feasibly do 5hrs a day X $80 is 300...
300x20-80x= 6k a month minus tournaments and other obligations that eat into that 5 hours a day (there are 16 or so to work with). If you add on top of that streaming and a sponsorship that includes major computing companies and you have a 100k/year salary for iNcontrol plus whatever he makes for being a NASL commentator. While what I am saying is speculation based off of his statements for febuary-march (on 12 weeks) plus the basic info that we have gotten from destiny on J.tv streaming.... Good for you Geoff.
So another character- Destiny. 50x a lesson at 1.5x lessons per day x5 days he is getting 300 per week doing lessons + 4kis per month streaming. At 60k a year, Steven no longer needs to clean carpets and I would consider him an idiot if he did. This doesn't include his youtube account.
Obviously going into pro gaming for anything but a passion is a bad idea; And I would never advocate to quitting your job unless you absolutely know that you can support yourself.
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On May 30 2011 17:59 lazydino wrote:
It baffles me how one individual can be so foul-mouthed, yet so sophisticated(?) A double edged sword you are, Mr Bonnell the second. I still love you thou.
Every thought about the fact that your notion that saying "bad" words makes you unsophisticated was wrong from the beginning?
Saying bad words has no correlation at all with your sophistication and if you think so you are brainwashed in that area by people who educated you.
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On June 12 2011 21:11 ixi.genocide wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, so based off of the information that we have so far we can lay out some basic guide lines. I live in the metropolitan area of Portland, OR. Portland on average costs 120% of the national average for rent and bills. I am going to ignore the +20% and just use that as a buffer.
A 2br apartment that is acceptable to live in is $600 a month, utilites are $50 a month, cable/internet is $120 a month, water/trash is 40 a month, 100 for cell phone. I pay about 300 a month in groceries plus I want a couple hundred for going out to dinner and movies and such.
600+50+120+40+100+300+200= $1400.
Including car insurance (100) and gas (50 a tank and 2x a month) the projected total that I would be looking to earn a month is 1600.
A streamer on J.tv gets 1c every 5 viewers. so if they get 1k viewers, they would get $2 per ad. If games last between 7 minutes and 30 minutes and average 15 minutes, then we can say we get 4 ads per hour or $8/hr per 1k viewers. This is the equivalent of a minimum wage.
A lower end pro (top masters, prolly gm) could charge $25-30 a lesson. The key to making money off of lessons is to actually set up lessons >.>.
I would not rely on making money from placing in tournaments. This is just bonus.
Salary- If you are on a team that gets a salary, then you are probably known well enough to fill your time with coaching. At this point you don't really need to worry about hitting $1600 a month. While I would like to know the graph of pro salaries, Non-top pros don't really apply for this.
Youtube/blip- In order to get a youtube partner account you need to have consistent videos with thousands of views, and a lot of subscribers. This generally comes from innovative videos, there are other places that will tell you how much youtubers make.
So we are going to look at 2 different revenue sources. First one is streaming- Obviously at $8 w/ consistent 1k viewers is something that we can't guarantee but it is a starting point.
100hrs a month- $800.
200hrs a month- target goal. So if we streamed for 200hrs a month (which is 50hrs per week or 7hrs per day average) we should hit our target of 1600 a month. This is the worst case scenario (obv getting 1k viewers is nice, but it is slower than 30 an hr)
$30/hr
55hrs per month- 1650 or our target goal. This would be 14-15 lessons a week or 2-3 a day (depending on schedules). If you can get a reputation for being a good coach getting 1-2 lessons a day is a possibility.
30hrs per month (1 lesson per day)- 900
So if we hit the minimum coaching sessions that we are looking for (900 a month) then we can fill in the other 700 with streaming. My first conclusion is that getting 1k viewers for 100hrs a month (5hrs a day/5 days a week) is probably going to be tough; If you are good enough to consider going pro at sc2 then this becomes easier to think about. Getting an average of 1 lesson per day is also going to be tough. I would recommend getting your name out there in as many areas as possible (youtube vids explaining builds and scenarios off of the top of my head). The good thing about these prospects is that if you are good enough to entertain the thought of going pro, then it shouldn't be hard to draw crowds with your play. 130hrs/month playing the game that you love and supporting yourself (barely) would be awesome too.
Final conclusion- It seems like it would be hard to get into the position of paying your way through sc. I wouldn't suggest anybody but the top 1% of masters even try it (even then, you shouldn't quit your job until you know this is going to work) and lower level pros should be fine making enough money if they stream and coach. That being said this does compound pretty nicely. I said that $2 per 1k views w/ an ave of 4 commercials would get $8/hr, destiny gets 3k viewers fairly consistently and IdrA shoots up to 8+k viewers whenever he plays. At $64 an hour to stream, I don't know why IdrA doesn't stream more (makes me wonder if we are off because of other factors). Coaching will go even easier; First of all, top coaches make between 50-70 and sometimes even more. Plus the ease of filling your times as a coach like iNcontrol you can feasibly do 5hrs a day X $80 is 300...
300x20-80x= 6k a month minus tournaments and other obligations that eat into that 5 hours a day (there are 16 or so to work with). If you add on top of that streaming and a sponsorship that includes major computing companies and you have a 100k/year salary for iNcontrol plus whatever he makes for being a NASL commentator. While what I am saying is speculation based off of his statements for febuary-march (on 12 weeks) plus the basic info that we have gotten from destiny on J.tv streaming.... Good for you Geoff.
So another character- Destiny. 50x a lesson at 1.5x lessons per day x5 days he is getting 300 per week doing lessons + 4kis per month streaming. At 60k a year, Steven no longer needs to clean carpets and I would consider him an idiot if he did. This doesn't include his youtube account.
Obviously going into pro gaming for anything but a passion is a bad idea; And I would never advocate to quitting your job unless you absolutely know that you can support yourself.
That is some really informative theorycrafting, thanks for working this out 
I think Idra doesnt stream more because streaming gives away a lot of information to opponents he might face in upcoming tournaments.
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On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works.
no...for justin.tv u get revenue with viewer count, ad clicks, and showing commercials.
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One thing you guys havn't considered but what comes up alot between poker players is the opportunity costs of being busy with games full time as a job. Think of things such as:
- You work from home (maybe even alone)
- There is no social element in your work on a face to face level. (I'll admit its abit the same as #1)
- Tax benefits dont really exist, its hard to buy a house with a variable income.
For these reasons I always tell people that wanna 'go pro' with poker to atleast do something on the side, or work on your social circle before stepping into it. It kinda sucks if you get miserable after 1 month of full time because you find yourself cut off from other people. I feel like the money you are getting out of it has to reflect these factors. A general rule might be that if you earn more then 3x then what you earn beforehand its gonna be worth it.
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just so you know, idra doesnt charge $300 an hour to coach because his lessons are high in demand, he does it because he doesnt want to coach - he wants to deter people from asking for coaching. Its more of a price on his time, he'd rather spend time practicing and what not then teaching some gold player that 'toss isnt meant to beat zerg' :p
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very curious...how did things progress during these 2 months in terms of progaming revenues?
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i think it would better to use that site as a salary "bonus" rather than actual income in the case of most pros anyway.
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Noone will tell you because they're afraid of transparency and the accountability it will bring. But, it is necessary for the growth and professionalism of the sport, as IGN pointed out in a thread a while back.
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On September 12 2011 02:43 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 21:11 ixi.genocide wrote:
Ok, so based off of the information that we have so far we can lay out some basic guide lines. I live in the metropolitan area of Portland, OR. Portland on average costs 120% of the national average for rent and bills. I am going to ignore the +20% and just use that as a buffer.
A 2br apartment that is acceptable to live in is $600 a month, utilites are $50 a month, cable/internet is $120 a month, water/trash is 40 a month, 100 for cell phone. I pay about 300 a month in groceries plus I want a couple hundred for going out to dinner and movies and such.
600+50+120+40+100+300+200= $1400.
Including car insurance (100) and gas (50 a tank and 2x a month) the projected total that I would be looking to earn a month is 1600. $300 a month groceries? What are you eating, gold chocolate bars? I make around $1800 a month (depends on conversion rate) and I saved up almost $10,000 over the past year. Either America is an expensive place to live or you're spending too much.
$300/month is ridiculous haha. I spend about $40/week max on food. $400/month in my apartment (it's called getting a roommate), $60 for cable/internet (cable is a luxury good anyways), and I spend $40 for cellphone. You need to learn how to save some money, 1400/month is a lot.
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On September 12 2011 02:54 SoKHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 02:43 Sated wrote:On June 12 2011 21:11 ixi.genocide wrote:
Ok, so based off of the information that we have so far we can lay out some basic guide lines. I live in the metropolitan area of Portland, OR. Portland on average costs 120% of the national average for rent and bills. I am going to ignore the +20% and just use that as a buffer.
A 2br apartment that is acceptable to live in is $600 a month, utilites are $50 a month, cable/internet is $120 a month, water/trash is 40 a month, 100 for cell phone. I pay about 300 a month in groceries plus I want a couple hundred for going out to dinner and movies and such.
600+50+120+40+100+300+200= $1400.
Including car insurance (100) and gas (50 a tank and 2x a month) the projected total that I would be looking to earn a month is 1600. $300 a month groceries? What are you eating, gold chocolate bars? I make around $1800 a month (depends on conversion rate) and I saved up almost $10,000 over the past year. Either America is an expensive place to live or you're spending too much. $300/month is ridiculous haha. I spend about $40/week max on food. $400/month in my apartment (it's called getting a roommate), $60 for cable/internet (cable is a luxury good anyways), and I spend $40 for cellphone. You need to learn how to save some money, 1400/month is a lot.
Cost of living in the states is much higher, so is eating healthy and going to school, having high-speed internet, dataplan on a cellphone, which I need for my work.
$400 a month won't get you anything in California, even with 3 room mates, try $700+
I think that salary transparency would be good for E-Sports, would help players and teams have a solid benchmark when negotiating and re-negotiating contracts. Players would know what to expect based on how well they perform, if a player was doing really well for their team, they would be able to easily compare their contracts to those of other players with similar results, and re-negotiate based on that. More motivation, the better.
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On September 12 2011 02:54 SoKHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 02:43 Sated wrote:On June 12 2011 21:11 ixi.genocide wrote:
Ok, so based off of the information that we have so far we can lay out some basic guide lines. I live in the metropolitan area of Portland, OR. Portland on average costs 120% of the national average for rent and bills. I am going to ignore the +20% and just use that as a buffer.
A 2br apartment that is acceptable to live in is $600 a month, utilites are $50 a month, cable/internet is $120 a month, water/trash is 40 a month, 100 for cell phone. I pay about 300 a month in groceries plus I want a couple hundred for going out to dinner and movies and such.
600+50+120+40+100+300+200= $1400.
Including car insurance (100) and gas (50 a tank and 2x a month) the projected total that I would be looking to earn a month is 1600. $300 a month groceries? What are you eating, gold chocolate bars? I make around $1800 a month (depends on conversion rate) and I saved up almost $10,000 over the past year. Either America is an expensive place to live or you're spending too much. $300/month is ridiculous haha. I spend about $40/week max on food. $400/month in my apartment (it's called getting a roommate), $60 for cable/internet (cable is a luxury good anyways), and I spend $40 for cellphone. You need to learn how to save some money, 1400/month is a lot.
$300 for grocery isn't too much. I live in southern California and it costs me about $200 for grocery even when I eat out often. Buying produce from farmers market adds up pretty quickly. $500 for dine outs, $140 for internet, $90 for cellphone, etc. Mine adds up around the same too. For me, high speed internet, smartphone dataplan, and fresh food are necessities, so I don't mind. The fact that California has very high cost of living doesn't help either.
I'm not a fan of saving money since once I get married and start a family, I'll probably be forced to do it anyway. I'll enjoy whatever I can when I can.
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EPT
