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What do the pros earn and how? - Page 16

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-15 18:57:34
May 15 2011 18:57 GMT
#301
Didn't DarkForce get a lapdance as part of his prize at some LAN in Germany?
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
KimJongChill
Profile Joined January 2011
United States6429 Posts
May 30 2011 01:49 GMT
#302
On May 04 2011 22:40 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
I wish people were mature enough to handle this kind of discussion, but I've seen how people across these intarwebz act, and I feel like players releasing a whole bunch of personal information about earnings could lead to a lot of bickering/arguing.

That being said, I personally think that in a group full of mature members, conversations about salaries and the flow of money could be healthy, and maybe even necessary in some cases.

Ack, I was going to write out a whole bunch of examples where understanding where all the money is being distributed would generate a lot of interesting/insightful discussion, but I'm far too tired for that.

That being said, I'm a very big proponent of high transparency, and I think that if people feel confident/good about what they're doing, there shouldn't be any problems with discussing your salary. Others feel uncomfortable, though, so, to each their own.

For JTV streams, I'm pretty sure the figure is 0.2 cents per ad per viewer ($0.002/ad/viewer), and people who are using ad-block (or people in certain countries, for some reason) don't count towards that figure. For people who are interested, here's a clip of my last month's earnings -

[image loading]

Unfortunately, from the 22nd to the 27th there was an error with reporting ad revenue so for some reason the entire day pretty much didn't write correctly, but otherwise, I think that provides a decent estimate of what someone can make streaming. That being said, I stream for quite a few hours at a time, and I can hold ~3k viewers. You could still make a decent amount of money (far more than what I used to think possible) with even 500 viewers for 6 hours a day. Even a few hundred dollars a month is more money than most people would ever think possible from streaming.

I can try to answer any questions, but I don't know specifics in terms of contracts from other people or teams, so it's hard to say what salaries are like.


Mad props steven, I've always been a big fan of your stream and gameplay, but you also have some insightful things to say :3
MMA: U realise MMA: Most of my army EgIdra: fuck off MMA: Killed my orbital MMA: LOL MMA: just saying MMA: u werent loss
lazydino
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada331 Posts
May 30 2011 08:59 GMT
#303
On May 30 2011 10:49 KimJongChill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2011 22:40 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
I wish people were mature enough to handle this kind of discussion, but I've seen how people across these intarwebz act, and I feel like players releasing a whole bunch of personal information about earnings could lead to a lot of bickering/arguing.

That being said, I personally think that in a group full of mature members, conversations about salaries and the flow of money could be healthy, and maybe even necessary in some cases.

Ack, I was going to write out a whole bunch of examples where understanding where all the money is being distributed would generate a lot of interesting/insightful discussion, but I'm far too tired for that.

That being said, I'm a very big proponent of high transparency, and I think that if people feel confident/good about what they're doing, there shouldn't be any problems with discussing your salary. Others feel uncomfortable, though, so, to each their own.

For JTV streams, I'm pretty sure the figure is 0.2 cents per ad per viewer ($0.002/ad/viewer), and people who are using ad-block (or people in certain countries, for some reason) don't count towards that figure. For people who are interested, here's a clip of my last month's earnings -

[image loading]

Unfortunately, from the 22nd to the 27th there was an error with reporting ad revenue so for some reason the entire day pretty much didn't write correctly, but otherwise, I think that provides a decent estimate of what someone can make streaming. That being said, I stream for quite a few hours at a time, and I can hold ~3k viewers. You could still make a decent amount of money (far more than what I used to think possible) with even 500 viewers for 6 hours a day. Even a few hundred dollars a month is more money than most people would ever think possible from streaming.

I can try to answer any questions, but I don't know specifics in terms of contracts from other people or teams, so it's hard to say what salaries are like.


Mad props steven, I've always been a big fan of your stream and gameplay, but you also have some insightful things to say :3


It baffles me how one individual can be so foul-mouthed, yet so sophisticated(?) A double edged sword you are, Mr Bonnell the second. I still love you thou.
"I have this moron thing that I do, it's called thinking" - George Carlin
Enox
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany1667 Posts
May 30 2011 09:12 GMT
#304
On May 16 2011 03:57 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Didn't DarkForce get a lapdance as part of his prize at some LAN in Germany?

haha, no. that wasn't part of his prize. that gogo girl was there anyway cause the community wanted to have one and donated the money, so she gave lapdances as well. Rotterdam got one too and he didn't even play in the tournament
If you think it's too hard there are solutions other than asking for a nerf, getting better is the first that comes to mind.
caelym
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6421 Posts
June 11 2011 00:37 GMT
#305
On May 08 2011 05:22 Xeris wrote:
Several things:

1) Prize money isn't as much as people make it out to be. There are pretty significant taxes in a lot of countries (at least in USA / Canada) on tournament winnings. For example, Canada taxes 35%... most teams take some percentage of prize winning as well (I think a standard is 15-20%). So basically, any tournament winnings has to be cut almost in half from the stated amount.

2) There are very few teams who can even afford to pay significant salaries to players... this is an infant industry really and it's a slow process trying to monetize this. Individuals have found a nice way to monetize this game (through streaming and coaching, and some individual sponsor plugging)... but so far the actual teams/oranizations themselves have had a tough time realizing an actual profit from this. EG and Liquid (this is just my opinion) -- seem to be the only teams that have found a good way to actually benefit financially (see all the new sponsor announcements from these teams!)

3) It takes a LOT of time/effort to make money from this game. If you look at people like Husky/Day9/incontrol/Idra/even Destiny -- it took them a long time to start actually making money. I mean, Idra wasn't getting anything from being a pro initially, and all the money he made was purely tournament winnings. Husky worked his ass off and didn't start making money for a long time. Now that they are making money, these guys are still working non-stop at it. It isn't this idealistic thing where money magically comes to you - Starcraft (if you're serious about it the way the above mentioned guys are) is actually a lot of work!

4) Personally -- I've been involved with Starcraft since it came out. I've been an "admin" since 2004. I joined the WGTour admin staff and ran the clan league and nation wars. I started running US tournaments (War of the States in 2006 was my first individual project). I founded BWUSA.org and created the Yankee League. I ran a 128 team tournament by myself, I put my own cash to fly to events and give some money to tournaments I ran. I didn't make a single dollar from Starcraft until late 2008, where I think if I remember correctly I made a few hundred bucks (which covered what I put in from my own pocket which was neat). It wasn't until 2010 that I actually earned a salary (so basically ~~5 years of working in the community to get to the position I'm at). And even then, I'm not making enough to live comfortably off of right now.

Obviously my case is a little different, since I started in the Brood War days and there was no money there; players would join a team for $50 per month, and the highest paid non Korean players were getting about $350 per month (this was back in 06-08). So someone expecting to start making money (I'm talking about from a more administrative perspective rather than as a player) obviously won't have to work 5 years for free like I did, but it still isn't something that's going to come about instantaneously (think about Wolf for example... I'm not sure but I think he's earning a bit of a salary now, but it took him ~1 year to get to this point with FXO).

I would also say that approaching this scene/community/game with the intention of making money from it is the wrong angle. I don't think you should look to justify your time investment by looking at the salary of the top people in the community. I think you should justify it instead by saying "I LOVE Starcraft, and I'm just going to keep doing what I can to contribute". If you're consistent enough (Day9 got to where he is because he was the only person who was producing regular, daily content) and good at what you do, financial success will follow. It's like that in every other aspect of life, and it's like that for Starcraft too!

I'm very happy to know that the game I started playing with my cousin when I was 10 years old is still a big part of my life, and that I've done a lot to help give back to the community that I love, and that on top of it all, I'm finally able to make some money on it to help pay for my education.

Anyway: random factoids:

- The biggest streamers (I.E. guys like Destiny) will probably make somewhere between 3-5k per month if they're streaming a lot

- A lot of players who I know of that do coaching, coach quite a bit and it's something like a regular job for them, and I'd probably roughly assume some averages (5 hours per day, 6 days per week of coaching at an average rate of $35/hour) that the upper tier (not top top tier such as Idra or iNcontroL) coaches can earn about $4k/month

- Most famous players (excluding Korea, obviously) are probably earning something in the range of $2k/2.5k per month

- 2nd tier (I.E. other top tier players) will be making something along the lines of $800-$1.5k per month

- 3rd tier players will be making around $300-$600 per month

- I don't really have any info on players from the less sponsored/smaller teams: however I'd assume salaries of $100-$200 and LAN support.

Standard deals from every notable sponsored teams include: free hardware, free LAN trips (paying for flights + hotels + some meal expense + taxi to/from airport hotels, etc). Teams are also supportive of the 'pro houses' and will subsidize expenses (generally speaking).

- Big name casters also get pretty good money, although I don't have any idea about rates casters get paid or anything (I have very little information here so I won't comment on it because it would be too speculative).

Hope people found this informative. If anyone has questions about my career, or anyone looking to go down the path of an "admin" (more general questions) I'd be happy to answer. I won't answer any specific questions (I.E. about specific players, specific figures, etc). Anyway that's my piece.





I'm going to bump this reply, because i feel that it's probably the most informative post in this thread. also I don't think anyone's going into esports for money, but they're asking such questions to gauge how financially feasible going "pro" is.
bnet: caelym#1470 | Twitter: @caelym
ziggurat
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada847 Posts
June 11 2011 03:51 GMT
#306
The money has grown dramatically, and it will continue to grow a lot more. But it's hard to predict exactly how big it will get. I think we will see some pros signing pretty big sponsorship deals in the near future -- at least if the popularity of sc2 at mlg Columbus is any indicator.
Grampz
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2147 Posts
June 11 2011 04:04 GMT
#307
On May 30 2011 10:49 KimJongChill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2011 22:40 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
I wish people were mature enough to handle this kind of discussion, but I've seen how people across these intarwebz act, and I feel like players releasing a whole bunch of personal information about earnings could lead to a lot of bickering/arguing.

That being said, I personally think that in a group full of mature members, conversations about salaries and the flow of money could be healthy, and maybe even necessary in some cases.

Ack, I was going to write out a whole bunch of examples where understanding where all the money is being distributed would generate a lot of interesting/insightful discussion, but I'm far too tired for that.

That being said, I'm a very big proponent of high transparency, and I think that if people feel confident/good about what they're doing, there shouldn't be any problems with discussing your salary. Others feel uncomfortable, though, so, to each their own.

For JTV streams, I'm pretty sure the figure is 0.2 cents per ad per viewer ($0.002/ad/viewer), and people who are using ad-block (or people in certain countries, for some reason) don't count towards that figure. For people who are interested, here's a clip of my last month's earnings -

[image loading]

Unfortunately, from the 22nd to the 27th there was an error with reporting ad revenue so for some reason the entire day pretty much didn't write correctly, but otherwise, I think that provides a decent estimate of what someone can make streaming. That being said, I stream for quite a few hours at a time, and I can hold ~3k viewers. You could still make a decent amount of money (far more than what I used to think possible) with even 500 viewers for 6 hours a day. Even a few hundred dollars a month is more money than most people would ever think possible from streaming.

I can try to answer any questions, but I don't know specifics in terms of contracts from other people or teams, so it's hard to say what salaries are like.


Mad props steven, I've always been a big fan of your stream and gameplay, but you also have some insightful things to say :3

haha damn 4 g's a month for letting people watch you play starcraft. so awesome !
Mailing
Profile Joined March 2011
United States3087 Posts
June 11 2011 04:07 GMT
#308
On June 11 2011 13:04 Grampz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 10:49 KimJongChill wrote:
On May 04 2011 22:40 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
I wish people were mature enough to handle this kind of discussion, but I've seen how people across these intarwebz act, and I feel like players releasing a whole bunch of personal information about earnings could lead to a lot of bickering/arguing.

That being said, I personally think that in a group full of mature members, conversations about salaries and the flow of money could be healthy, and maybe even necessary in some cases.

Ack, I was going to write out a whole bunch of examples where understanding where all the money is being distributed would generate a lot of interesting/insightful discussion, but I'm far too tired for that.

That being said, I'm a very big proponent of high transparency, and I think that if people feel confident/good about what they're doing, there shouldn't be any problems with discussing your salary. Others feel uncomfortable, though, so, to each their own.

For JTV streams, I'm pretty sure the figure is 0.2 cents per ad per viewer ($0.002/ad/viewer), and people who are using ad-block (or people in certain countries, for some reason) don't count towards that figure. For people who are interested, here's a clip of my last month's earnings -

[image loading]

Unfortunately, from the 22nd to the 27th there was an error with reporting ad revenue so for some reason the entire day pretty much didn't write correctly, but otherwise, I think that provides a decent estimate of what someone can make streaming. That being said, I stream for quite a few hours at a time, and I can hold ~3k viewers. You could still make a decent amount of money (far more than what I used to think possible) with even 500 viewers for 6 hours a day. Even a few hundred dollars a month is more money than most people would ever think possible from streaming.

I can try to answer any questions, but I don't know specifics in terms of contracts from other people or teams, so it's hard to say what salaries are like.


Mad props steven, I've always been a big fan of your stream and gameplay, but you also have some insightful things to say :3

haha damn 4 g's a month for letting people watch you play starcraft. so awesome !


Heh.

I wouldn't be surprised of HD/Husky rake in around 80-130k a year putting out 3-4 videos daily.

But yeah, making a living off just pure SC2 streaming is awesome.
Are you hurting ESPORTS? Find out today - http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=232866
Shooks
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia256 Posts
June 11 2011 04:54 GMT
#309
Programing isn't about the money, lol @ people that care so much.
JiYan
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3668 Posts
June 11 2011 04:55 GMT
#310
this is proof enough of how the fans are what gives life to esports
Mailing
Profile Joined March 2011
United States3087 Posts
June 11 2011 05:00 GMT
#311
On June 11 2011 13:54 Shooks wrote:
Programing isn't about the money, lol @ people that care so much.


SC has to be about the money.

These players are putting in 8-10 hours a day to practice. If they cannot get a stable income, they won't be able to support themselves

It's not the same for other games where you don't need to practice as much.

Are you hurting ESPORTS? Find out today - http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=232866
Kazragore
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States369 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-11 05:12:06
June 11 2011 05:10 GMT
#312
On June 11 2011 13:04 Grampz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2011 10:49 KimJongChill wrote:
On May 04 2011 22:40 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:
I wish people were mature enough to handle this kind of discussion, but I've seen how people across these intarwebz act, and I feel like players releasing a whole bunch of personal information about earnings could lead to a lot of bickering/arguing.

That being said, I personally think that in a group full of mature members, conversations about salaries and the flow of money could be healthy, and maybe even necessary in some cases.

Ack, I was going to write out a whole bunch of examples where understanding where all the money is being distributed would generate a lot of interesting/insightful discussion, but I'm far too tired for that.

That being said, I'm a very big proponent of high transparency, and I think that if people feel confident/good about what they're doing, there shouldn't be any problems with discussing your salary. Others feel uncomfortable, though, so, to each their own.

For JTV streams, I'm pretty sure the figure is 0.2 cents per ad per viewer ($0.002/ad/viewer), and people who are using ad-block (or people in certain countries, for some reason) don't count towards that figure. For people who are interested, here's a clip of my last month's earnings -

[image loading]

Unfortunately, from the 22nd to the 27th there was an error with reporting ad revenue so for some reason the entire day pretty much didn't write correctly, but otherwise, I think that provides a decent estimate of what someone can make streaming. That being said, I stream for quite a few hours at a time, and I can hold ~3k viewers. You could still make a decent amount of money (far more than what I used to think possible) with even 500 viewers for 6 hours a day. Even a few hundred dollars a month is more money than most people would ever think possible from streaming.

I can try to answer any questions, but I don't know specifics in terms of contracts from other people or teams, so it's hard to say what salaries are like.


Mad props steven, I've always been a big fan of your stream and gameplay, but you also have some insightful things to say :3

haha damn 4 g's a month for letting people watch you play starcraft. so awesome !


Yeah you have to look at the hours he's putting in (a lot haha). But I suppose you could just say that he would be playing that much anyway, but now he's making money off of it. Regardless, it takes a lot of work (and time) to make that kind of money AND Destiny is one of the most popular streamers around so you can't think that any old streamer can make this kind of money. High viewership is very very hard to obtain
Imagine if i had a REAL weapon
IPA
Profile Joined August 2010
United States3206 Posts
June 11 2011 05:16 GMT
#313
On June 11 2011 13:54 Shooks wrote:
Programing isn't about the money, lol @ people that care so much.


You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Of course it's partially about the love of the game; however, it's childish to say that professional players don't do it for the money. It is their job, their livelihood. Pro gamers are pragmatic by necessity. It's a strange, growing professional field but it certainly isn't the most rock solid of careers (yet). Your statement makes you sound like a 16 year old kid living at home -- maybe you are, and there's nothing wrong with that. I would wager that earning a living is near the top of pro gamers' priorities along with glory, competitive satisfaction, etc.
Time held me green and dying though I sang in my chains like the sea.
StyLeD
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2965 Posts
June 11 2011 05:22 GMT
#314
Steven, I shall give u 0.002 cents by watching your stream right now =]
"Even gophers love Starcraft" - Tasteless. || Davichi | IU <3
Okiesmokie
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada379 Posts
June 11 2011 05:49 GMT
#315
On May 03 2011 08:40 hmunkey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2011 08:39 jester- wrote:
On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works.


Negative. Ad's pay by viewer count.

Still off. Ads pay by the viewer count of those not using Adblock and within specific, targeted regions.

If you have adblock or are not in their targeted region, you won't see the ad. So no, he wasn't off.
Rybka
Profile Joined March 2010
United States836 Posts
June 11 2011 05:56 GMT
#316
On June 11 2011 13:54 Shooks wrote:
Programing isn't about the money, lol @ people that care so much.


The "pro" means professional, as in it's your job to be good at Starcraft. Pretty sure jobs involve getting paid. Jobs can be about other things too, but if you're not getting paid to do something it's definitely not your profession.
"I like winter, you can put a beer outside of the window and come back later to have it nice and cold. But in Belgium, it'd better be the 3rd floor window." -Rowa
Shooks
Profile Joined January 2011
Australia256 Posts
June 11 2011 06:23 GMT
#317
On June 11 2011 14:16 IPA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 11 2011 13:54 Shooks wrote:
Programing isn't about the money, lol @ people that care so much.


You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Of course it's partially about the love of the game; however, it's childish to say that professional players don't do it for the money. It is their job, their livelihood. Pro gamers are pragmatic by necessity. It's a strange, growing professional field but it certainly isn't the most rock solid of careers (yet). Your statement makes you sound like a 16 year old kid living at home -- maybe you are, and there's nothing wrong with that. I would wager that earning a living is near the top of pro gamers' priorities along with glory, competitive satisfaction, etc.


I said it isn't about the money, I didn't say they don't care about the money. Obviously they need enough to fucking live
L3g3nd_
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand10461 Posts
June 11 2011 06:25 GMT
#318
some players, such as idra, have a salary.

A lot of players make some good money off streaming commercials. If you arent on a team paying you money, or giving you a team house, youll have to be winning a lot of small tournaments, or working part time.
https://twitter.com/#!/IrisAnother
Duravi
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1205 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-11 06:47:17
June 11 2011 06:29 GMT
#319
Jobs involve working for either a set number of hours or satisfying a condition (salary). Right now the SC2 western scene has a lot of players who aren't regulated in either of these ways but still being paid. Most of the shit going on in SC2 foreigner teams would never fly in pro-sports(Europe or US) or korean BW, when that changes we will really see an explosion of the scene.

I love ESPORTS but throughout my life I have known 3 people who are now professional athletes in three different areas (Serie A, NFL, and NBA) and their dedication to training is much larger than any foreigner SC2 player I have heard of. This makes it difficult for me to take seriously these pros that spend less than ~40 hours a week training. I enjoy SC2 but if you want to have people take it seriously you need to stop with the casting x hours a week, streaming x hours a week, and coaching x hours a week and actually take your job as a pro seriously. I'm not going to put this 100% on the players, if they were earning enough cash they didn't need the streaming/coaching/casting revenue they wouldn't try for it. The teams need to pay a good salary and hire a coach to keep the players in line. That is how all sports work, why can't ESPORTS work that way?
Oxb
Profile Joined August 2010
199 Posts
June 11 2011 06:49 GMT
#320
On June 11 2011 15:29 Duravi wrote:
Jobs involve working for either a set number of hours or satisfying a condition (salary). Right now the SC2 western scene has a lot of players who aren't regulated in either of these ways but still being paid. Most of the shit going on in SC2 foreigner teams would never fly in pro-sports(Europe or US) or korean BW, when that changes we will really see an explosion of the scene.

I love ESPORTS but throughout my life I have known 3 people who are now professional athletes in three different areas (Serie A, NFL, and NBA) and their dedication to training is much larger than any foreigner SC2 player I have heard of. This makes it difficult for me to take seriously these pros that spend less than ~40 hours a week training. I enjoy SC2 but if you want to have people take it seriously you need to stop with the casting x hours a week, streaming x hours a week, and coaching x hours a week and actually take your job as a pro seriously.


I have to agree with you. Though i'm not saying none of the EU/NA pro's are taking it seriously enough, there is, I think, still a big difference between an actual pro-sport and e-sports.

Do you think pro-gamers (I see this mainly in S-Korea though) that wear a shirt saying 'Intel' or 'AMD' or 'G-skills' etc don't get some money for wearing that shirt?(Similar to actual athletes) I think a lot of players get a fixed salary from sponsors (no idea how much that is) based on a contract, not based on prize-money etc. For e-sports to become anything like an actualy sport, there is still a long way to go. Let's just keep supporting it and eventually EU/NA will be a lot similar to S-Korea, and thereby also a lot more like an actual 'pro-sport'
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