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On May 05 2011 04:16 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:12 MaestroSC wrote:
Just doing the math on Idra and his stream, along with the incredibly helpful information from Mr Steven Bonnell II, Greg has 8000 viewers, he gets .02 per vier per commercial. he is getting $160 per commercial he shows atm.
If he streams for even an Hour he will show 6-10 commercials. he is going to make over $1,000 in this one hour at a MINIMUM. Not to mention his tournament winnings... I would love to see the records of Greg's financials. Math, please. It's .2 cents or $0.002. $16 per commercial. 
The guy his math was correct. He was using wrong data though.
Even though this thread was a great read, and Incontrol shouldn't be trolling it. However, I don't think he thought the thread would be alive for this long.
I guess there is some interest from me as well how much gamers earn.
I would appreciate it if there was some ballpark we could look at.
If I would think with my ass I would say something like and I think there are around 5 000 people who play Starcraft 2 without other income and are over 18:
Top 0.3%: 100.000 p/y (With the Top Koreans really on top)
Top 1%: 75.000 p/y (I don't really know how much a decent Korean teamplayer (Code S) earns but I guess around this)
Top 5%: 20.000 p/y (Again, a lot Koreans but I guess a decent amount of NA/EU players.)
Top 10% 5.000 p/y
I am only counting coaching, commercials, team contract and tournament winnings.
I am not counting Youtube, casting jobs, private sponsors, donations, etc.
DISCLAIMER: I am talking out of my ass but I "feel" this could be right somehow.
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On May 05 2011 04:35 Tin_Foil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:12 MaestroSC wrote:
Just doing the math on Idra and his stream, along with the incredibly helpful information from Mr Steven Bonnell II, Greg has 8000 viewers, he gets .02 per vier per commercial. he is getting $160 per commercial he shows atm.
If he streams for even an Hour he will show 6-10 commercials. he is going to make over $1,000 in this one hour at a MINIMUM. Not to mention his tournament winnings... I would love to see the records of Greg's financials.
Numbers were based on 8k viewers he now has almos 13k viewers... so much $$ The number was .2 cents, so .002. Idra would make $16 from each commercial with 8000 viewers, not $160. Big difference, but $16 per commercial just for streaming games is pretty sweet.
ya i only glanced at Destiny's post so i thought it was 2cents per ad per view but after i thought about it i was thinkin that was way too high and there is no way he gets 2cents per ad per view.
But stil he is making 160 an hour just to stream ladder matches... not a bad deal at all for him. (or for us his insight is actually amazingly in-depth and its like getting a peek of his sc2 mind and the strategy/analysis he has of every minute detail. very very interesting)
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On May 05 2011 04:38 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:35 Tin_Foil wrote:On May 05 2011 04:12 MaestroSC wrote:
Just doing the math on Idra and his stream, along with the incredibly helpful information from Mr Steven Bonnell II, Greg has 8000 viewers, he gets .02 per vier per commercial. he is getting $160 per commercial he shows atm.
If he streams for even an Hour he will show 6-10 commercials. he is going to make over $1,000 in this one hour at a MINIMUM. Not to mention his tournament winnings... I would love to see the records of Greg's financials.
Numbers were based on 8k viewers he now has almos 13k viewers... so much $$ The number was .2 cents, so .002. Idra would make $16 from each commercial with 8000 viewers, not $160. Big difference, but $16 per commercial just for streaming games is pretty sweet. ya i only glanced at Destiny's post so i thought it was 2cents per ad per view but after i thought about it i was thinkin that was way too high and there is no way he gets 2cents per ad per view. But stil he is making 160 an hour just to stream ladder matches... not a bad deal at all for him. (or for us his insight is actually amazingly in-depth and its like getting a peek of his sc2 mind and the strategy/analysis he has of every minute detail. very very interesting)
He doesn't make anywhere near 160/hour... You have to realize he's streaming for 12+ hours on some of those days were he made $300/..
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On May 04 2011 09:37 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 09:30 mooshoo wrote:On May 03 2011 17:18 IdrA wrote:On May 03 2011 16:54 Holcan wrote:On May 03 2011 16:26 5unrise wrote:On May 03 2011 08:16 Holcan wrote:
good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less. What's your evidence? Or just reasoning even? Don't just pull numbers off your ass and expect people to believe a year of managing a sponorship seeking sc2 team 2 years of managing a sponsor seeking wc3 team 5 years of administrative work on the semi professional level in wc3, so I was in constant contact with players like Empire.Kas, Thorzain, etc. I dont care if you believe me or not, but my numbers are the closest you are going to get in this thread. 'sponsorship seeking' the people who actually found sponsors might have a better idea of what kind of money is there. Since this thread is all based off speculation on loose facts, I will continue the trend with my own speculation. Idra's response seems to be discrediting Holcan's analysis of how much a pro makes per year. My assumption is that Idra wouldn't imply Holcan is wrong about his estimate of salaries if pros were actually making less than the estimated salaries because that is just self deprecating. Thus, I am concluding that pro SCII gamers actually make more than the estimates of Holcan. The part that I think that was most unlikely about Holcan's estimates is that NA pros make the same or less than what people make at Mcdonalds. That's just bullshit. 12-18k a year is bullshit? how much do you think people deserve to play video games? Like honestly? Do you think Axslav should get 1k a a month for what he does, plus travelling fees? How about ROOT Gaming that doesnt even have sponsors and pay travel fees out of their own pocket? Its not bullshit, sorry for putting a realistic perspective on the scenario. If you worked a full time job at mcdonalds, you would be making the same, if not more money than the average north american pro gamer.
Dude working working 6 hours a day with a wage of $10 (thats how much it is where I live) would only get you around 20k and u get free food so no food expenses I guess. Destiny earns more than that streaming a fair bit every hour and he can live off streaming alone since its around 30k a year. Players like Idra,MC with sponsors and coaching earn WAY more so stop disrespecting pro gamers just cause your mommy wouldn't let you play past your bedtime.
Do people who play sports or models REALLY deserve millions of dollars for what they do? no they dont but the public is willing to pay them that much. If starcraft was more popular then the entertainers of sc2 (the players and casters) would earn more. Its the law of supply and demand. if the supply of gamers cannot keep up with demand them the people will earn fuck tons of money.
By the way. Even if working at mcdonalds earned you the same or more money (which it doesnt) you are working at Mcdonalds. no one respects you
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Hellspawn wrote:
Tournament money
The best tip that I have to you as a fan is to have the view of prize money as a bonus to the player. If you think that a player can live on only prize money then think again. It is way too risky and as already mentioned in this thread it's only a few (20-30) that even earn that much money in the world. Also worth remembering is that it's not uncommon that tournaments isn't paying out prize money or at least that the money isn't paid out for a very long time. Nothing you can rely on when you going to pay your rent. It should be said that it seem to get better and better and also that the prize money are increasing per player. I should also mention that it' not uncommon that teams take a cut of the prize money. Some do and some don't, teams can take up to 30% and it has occasionally happen that organizations take all the prize money to cover the traveling costs.
Isn't that more of a Counter Strike issue? Is this also happening in SC2?
PS. Has MC gotten his money for the win @ Dreamhack Stockholm inv.? 
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On May 03 2011 13:53 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:40 Chill wrote:On May 03 2011 12:55 Joementum wrote:On May 03 2011 12:02 iNcontroL wrote:
fun thread but so far this has been a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea judging/speculating on the salaries of players based on what Destiny said in an interview and what IdrA charges for coaching.
btw he charges that much not because he is in that high of demand but because he doesn't want to coach.. unless someone pays him tremendously. Why not shed some light on it then instead of saying "LOL noobs speculating?" Otherwise, just let us speculate. There's only one player we know of and it's Destiny since he's come out and said how much he makes. Agreed. There is no way to come off as good talking about how much you make playing sc2. And it's just not a good idea.
That statement is so 'matter of fact' and smacks of an unwillingness to consider the idea that it is possible to 'come off' okay on the topic of gamers and money. Let me reassure you that there is another reality out there beyond the trolls...one where transparency and disclosure garners respect and trust from others (or those that *should* matter anyway). For example, I don't mind that gamers are making money while I have to work a regular job...I even disable my ad-blocker when I watch streams (yours included). I buy season passes to the major tournaments and occasionally participate in a constructive conversation on TL. If you are worried that the trolls can't handle it, then I have to ask...why do you even care?
As a reference point for my frustration and the driving reason behind my post I am going to cite a recent conversation between you and Tyler. I expect you already know where I am going. On a recent episode of SoTG, Tyler was defending the need for disclosure and honesty in support of his position on a particular topic. In turn, you drew heavily on your background in debate and a mastery of the English language and rebutted his point by calling him a stupid mother f-er (among other things). On one hand I should consider the benefits of openness and disclosure and on the other hand I should consider that he is, in fact, a stupid mother f-er. I was torn.
I made a decision though. I'm going to chew Stride gum, and I do give a shit.
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I think transparency is a good thing. I think Teamliquid lacks it a lot, TBH, but, that's just my opinion. I don't see how more transparency can hurt any part of the SC2 scene.
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Denying transparency would generally come down to feelings of jealousy or inadequacy for most adolescents.
The aspect of keeping things under wraps has generally been stipulated in a lot of eSports contracts outside of the StarCraft realm, whether through Quake or Counter-Strike etc..., because the organizations then have the power to take advantage. Now, not all organizations are like this, but I've seen a few pretty one-sided contracts that players have signed, and I think that's where a lot of it starts.
Once people can be held accountable through said transparency, and the field can be leveled in terms of support, among other things, it will go a long way to increasing the potential of eSports in general.
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Way too negative tone in this thread. ESPORTs in the west has a potential to become very lucrative. Marketing to the fanbase is still quite untapped and events keep filling up with very little exposure outside of enthusiast sites.
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People always forget that .2 cents does not equal .2$, it's rather surprising. but ya math isn't something you want to do when searching forums?
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On May 05 2011 20:58 vdek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:38 MaestroSC wrote:On May 05 2011 04:35 Tin_Foil wrote:On May 05 2011 04:12 MaestroSC wrote:
Just doing the math on Idra and his stream, along with the incredibly helpful information from Mr Steven Bonnell II, Greg has 8000 viewers, he gets .02 per vier per commercial. he is getting $160 per commercial he shows atm.
If he streams for even an Hour he will show 6-10 commercials. he is going to make over $1,000 in this one hour at a MINIMUM. Not to mention his tournament winnings... I would love to see the records of Greg's financials.
Numbers were based on 8k viewers he now has almos 13k viewers... so much $$ The number was .2 cents, so .002. Idra would make $16 from each commercial with 8000 viewers, not $160. Big difference, but $16 per commercial just for streaming games is pretty sweet. ya i only glanced at Destiny's post so i thought it was 2cents per ad per view but after i thought about it i was thinkin that was way too high and there is no way he gets 2cents per ad per view. But stil he is making 160 an hour just to stream ladder matches... not a bad deal at all for him. (or for us his insight is actually amazingly in-depth and its like getting a peek of his sc2 mind and the strategy/analysis he has of every minute detail. very very interesting) He doesn't make anywhere near 160/hour... You have to realize he's streaming for 12+ hours on some of those days were he made $300/..
Idra had 14k viewers last time i watched his stream. he gets .002 per viewer per ad. So he was getting 28$ per commercial. If she shows 1 commercial every 10 minutes he will get 168 per hour roughly...
How is this false?
I didnt say Destiny was making 160 an hour i said Idra was at the time i did the math streaming to 14k viewers and for those 3 hours had the potential of making 160 an hour.
and to the people who are still feeling intelligent when they point out .2 cents is not .02 thank you for not reading and comprehending because it clearly states the math was done assuming he got 2CENTS (NOT .2 cents) per ad per viewer. The post was simply read wrong be4 the data was put into the problem... ffs get off your high horses and stop feeling like you are boasting to the world about ur mad math skills and their lacking of
And why Pro's like incontrol arent saying what they make as SC2 programers/personalities: because they dont want to get:
A. accused of just using esports to cash-in.
B. be told that their choice of career is a waste of time compared to something else
C. because if they make good money or bad money people will still be upset about what they read
D. its not really any1 else's business.
It is a lose lose if they post what they make as people will take it wrong no matter what.
Unless you are Destiny who just says "IDGAF what any of you people think hoenstly." which is a great attitude for some but not every1's attitude
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It's difficult for anybody to discuss how much they make per year and not come off as a douche. Stating a dollar amount immediately creates a need to compare salaries and argue that someone is making too much or too little; it's why people don't discuss salaries in the workplace.
All you need to know is that pro-gamers who don't have another job make enough money so that they don't feel like they need another job to support themselves.
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On May 07 2011 06:42 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 20:58 vdek wrote:On May 05 2011 04:38 MaestroSC wrote:On May 05 2011 04:35 Tin_Foil wrote:On May 05 2011 04:12 MaestroSC wrote:
Just doing the math on Idra and his stream, along with the incredibly helpful information from Mr Steven Bonnell II, Greg has 8000 viewers, he gets .02 per vier per commercial. he is getting $160 per commercial he shows atm.
If he streams for even an Hour he will show 6-10 commercials. he is going to make over $1,000 in this one hour at a MINIMUM. Not to mention his tournament winnings... I would love to see the records of Greg's financials.
Numbers were based on 8k viewers he now has almos 13k viewers... so much $$ The number was .2 cents, so .002. Idra would make $16 from each commercial with 8000 viewers, not $160. Big difference, but $16 per commercial just for streaming games is pretty sweet. ya i only glanced at Destiny's post so i thought it was 2cents per ad per view but after i thought about it i was thinkin that was way too high and there is no way he gets 2cents per ad per view. But stil he is making 160 an hour just to stream ladder matches... not a bad deal at all for him. (or for us his insight is actually amazingly in-depth and its like getting a peek of his sc2 mind and the strategy/analysis he has of every minute detail. very very interesting) He doesn't make anywhere near 160/hour... You have to realize he's streaming for 12+ hours on some of those days were he made $300/.. Idra had 14k viewers last time i watched his stream. he gets .002 per viewer per ad. So he was getting 28$ per commercial. If she shows 1 commercial every 10 minutes he will get 168 per hour roughly... How is this false?
The commercials are region-specific. Some get them, some don't. Factors in the ad-blockers and you arrive at $300 per day (or so he claimed).
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most salaries for players are pretty low like 200-800$ a month and some aren't even paid, but then you have the icons like grubby/idra who get paid $2k+ a month pretty much just for name value.
Anyone who gets paid to play this game doesn't do it because of the money
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I find this topic very interesting (to the point of reading most of this thread). The reason for that is because progamers' incomes really do matter to me as a spectator. It affects e-sports, it affects the player pool, it affects my view of the SC2 progaming scene - I find it quite important. Really, I'm surprised the information is utterly unavailable...
A more specific question directed at Destiny -> would you mind elaborating on how Justin.tv specifically handles ad revenue based on the viewer's country? It'd be great to know how it really works and I suppose you must have access to that kind of information, seeing as you stream so much. Thanks!
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I think two of the best posts are Hellspawns (Dreamhack admin) and Destinys (Professional streamer).
Basically conclusions are:
- The clans are not paying players much except travels to some lan-events and a barely surviveable salary (200€+).
- Personal sponsoring and sponsoring of equipment are becoming pretty common for the best players and teams, Economy in this is unknown.
- Pricemoney earned is very much a gamble for most players and generally not in itself sustainable except somewhat in code S of GSL.
- There is a market for lessons and if the income is 30 $ pr. hour you need about 40 lessons of 1 hour each month to make it about the level of streaming for 1000 viewers (that is quite a lot actually)!
- A more stable source of income (surprisingly) seems to be streaming on justin.tv. +1000 viewers constantly and it could be sustainable with ads ($1200+/month)!
Easiest source seems to be streaming, but reaching 1000+ viewers will be a though task without making yourself a name elsewhere.
Lessons might be the second string. Again you need to make a name for yourself before you can do that.
Pricemoney is a gamble and takes a lot of effort, luck and skill to gain. Ironically, however, winning good pricemoney may make you known enough to give lessons or stream for money!
Personal sponsors seems to be only for the absolute top. Sponsored equipment is however more broadly known from CS and other e-sports.
Clans are good deals for players uncertain of if they can make it. They in most cases give some security primarily.
Basically the summary is: Start winning tournaments or make a name for yourself in another way and you get a lot more possibilities. Only then it might be a true question for you if you want to get into it fulltime.
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On May 07 2011 07:34 Aravan wrote:
I find this topic very interesting (to the point of reading most of this thread). The reason for that is because progamers' incomes really do matter to me as a spectator. It affects e-sports, it affects the player pool, it affects my view of the SC2 progaming scene - I find it quite important. Really, I'm surprised the information is utterly unavailable...
A more specific question directed at Destiny -> would you mind elaborating on how Justin.tv specifically handles ad revenue based on the viewer's country? It'd be great to know how it really works and I suppose you must have access to that kind of information, seeing as you stream so much. Thanks!
I'm not entirely sure how the ads differ based on country, whether the impressions pay the same or what not, unfortunately. I've never dug that deep before. 
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Currently, sc2 pro player salaries are widely going to be based on speculation + limited information (from players like destiny). However, what I can say about team sponsorships is:
my brother had an IRL friend on EG's Counter Strike 1.6 team, and he mentioned that he was SALARIED at $80k/yr~. Now note that CS =/= sc2 so it is more than likely that salaries are different. However, once again, one could assume that say the salary of strifcro =/= salary of idra.
The thread is indeed very interesting though, and yes it seems some people are being slightly intrusive but part of what makes SPECTATOR-sports(meaning sports, e-sports, the works) big is "how much money people make" [for example my irl friend that is very good at soccer/keeps up with it mentions how xx makes "this many million a year" and this ref got $50k for reffing just 1 game] although it shouldn't play a factor it does and always will--money makes the world go round.
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Read most of the thread. I wish at least ball-park figures for salaries and the like would have been given, but I really appreciate Bonnell showing his graph of earnings.
It's crazy to think how much IdrA would make from streaming if he streamed more. With his commentary he's racking up over 15k viewers.
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It's funny people talking about a yearly salary for streamers and other people who've not even done it for a year.
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EPT
