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The explosion of big prize pool tourneys is great for esports, but it doesn't look like there is enough tournament money for a lot of top players to live on (only about the top 10 seem to make a living on prize money). What else do the top players earn from?
Note: I'm pretty sure they aren't earning as much as they should. For the amount of entertainment they are providing us, I'd like to see these guys get paid like pro athletes --- the people running & casting TL, NASL, etc., should also be getting paid a living. Is it happening yet? If not, I hope it happens soon.
Does anybody know what pro gamers make from:
1. Team sponsorship
2. Coaching
3. Show matches/appearance fees
4. Live streaming
I'm particularly interested in #4. I'm really enjoying various SC2 live streams and I'm hoping every time I sit through a commercial, somebody is getting paid at least a little bit. Are they paid by the # of viewers? What's a 3k viewer commercial earn somebody?
I'm guessing #1 isn't made public and #2 varies a lot by player (being good at coaching and playing isn't even the same thing). Is anybody making money off endorsements? Maybe in Korea?
Looking forward to the day we see pro SC2 gamers rolling with bling and posses instead of living in dorms 8 to a room. 
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I think it depends who you are ... I think in NA Idra is making quite a bit more than the others... he gets like 8,000 viewers every time he streams and charges like 300$ for coaching because his lessons are in high demand. I'm pretty sure sponsors are the #1 reason they make a living though.
I'm pretty sure if you dont block the ads yes they are making a little bit of money from you sitting through them.
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Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works.
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good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less.
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On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works.
No... I'm almost sure it's for views. Why streamers tell people to turn off their ad blocker if it wasn't the VIEWS that earned money? Someone who takes the time to install an ad blocker isn't going to click on an ad anyways. And someone could just click on an ad 10000000 times to get money. Money per viewer makes more sense.
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This is a great site. But look how quick the money drops off. By #20, it's only $15,500, which isn't really livable.
But I think in tourney sports that's not uncommon. Not that many golfers make that much in prize money per year either, they make it on endorsements.
But live streaming is a cool game-only thing. If they get 1 penny per viewer per ad, a 3k viewer commercial is worth $30 and you can earn a bit. If it's .1 cents per viewer per ad, that's only $3 and it's barely going to pay for beer. I wonder.
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that site doesnt include salaries just fyi
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On May 03 2011 08:16 Holcan wrote:
good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less.
Quit talking out of your ass, you have zero clue.
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I think the amount of money so far is quite impressive, but I really think none of it should be thought of as an end-goal. There aren't many other "professions" where people at the absolute top earn so little.
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there were a bunch of personal sponsorship announcments before MLG dallas like TLO and Kiwikaki and root getting sponsors like dr pepper and aw root beer and such, those probably get the players a significant amount of money
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On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works.
Negative. Ad's pay by viewer count.
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On May 03 2011 08:39 jester- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works. Negative. Ad's pay by viewer count.
Still off. Ads pay by the viewer count of those not using Adblock and within specific, targeted regions.
On May 03 2011 08:36 rickybobby wrote:
there were a bunch of personal sponsorship announcments before MLG dallas like TLO and Kiwikaki and root getting sponsors like dr pepper and aw root beer and such, those probably get the players a significant amount of money
It's doubtful any of those sponsorships are worth more than a few $1000 if even, but if a player wants to come out and disprove me please do.
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There are currently 9 players playing for the TSL as of now. The two highest paid players will be Kim Won Ki AKA TSL.FruitDealer and Seo Ki Soo AKA TSL.Trickster, with 35,000,000 KRW (around 31,000 US$) and 30,000,000 KRW (around 27,000 US$) a year respectively.
Source
Thats a korean team mind you.
Destiny had an AMA where he mentioned what he got from different places.
At the moment I make about $3.5/month from the ad revenue I receive, then I make ~$1.5/month from lessons. Hopefully once my youtube channel is partnered I can generate some more money from that. There's also the occasional showmatch win/tourney placing, but those don't generate too much.
Source
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On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works.
I always click TV, magazine and billboard advertising. It's how all advertising works.
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On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works.
There are 2 different forms of advertising (as par your example). Pay for each click, (CPC), and Pay for each Impression. Per impression is a lot cheaper form of advertising and works for most products and services (what non-internet companies use). I would say this is the most common form of ads seen on justin tv (pizza ads, product placement, etc).
Paying per click is mainly for internet busniess, and the market is much larger and easier to access (you have to go out to visit a store, but can just click online), thus, many large companies that offer services and products on the outside world will go for the impressions, and not clicks.
Im 90% sure that the "commercials" are per impression, meaning, if you have adblock off, you will basically be giving X amount to the person, regardless if you click or not.
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On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works.
Not true. I have heard on multiple streams that the streamer gets .2 cents per viewer per commercial. This could be wrong, but I have heard it from multiple mods and admins on stream. this means $2 per 1000 viewers per commercial. so a stream with 5k viewers with 4 commercials an hour can make $40 an hour. Once again this is merely what I've heard from different sources.
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On May 03 2011 08:44 hellsan631 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works. There are 2 different forms of advertising (as par your example). Pay for each click, (CPC), and Pay for each Impression. Per impression is a lot cheaper form of advertising and works for most products and services (what non-internet companies use). I would say this is the most common form of ads seen on justin tv (pizza ads, product placement, etc). Paying per click is mainly for internet busniess, and the market is much larger and easier to access (you have to go out to visit a store, but can just click online), thus, many large companies that offer services and products on the outside world will go for the impressions, and not clicks. Im 90% sure that the "commercials" are per impression, meaning, if you have adblock off, you will basically be giving X amount to the person, regardless if you click or not.
The first informed reply to my post. I see the Justin.tv ads as very similar to YouTube ads and I know that YouTube ads are PPC, as that's how Google Adsense works. I would assume that Justin.tv uses the same model, however I may be wrong.
On May 03 2011 08:18 seffer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works. No... I'm almost sure it's for views. Why streamers tell people to turn off their ad blocker if it wasn't the VIEWS that earned money? Someone who takes the time to install an ad blocker isn't going to click on an ad anyways. And someone could just click on an ad 10000000 times to get money. Money per viewer makes more sense.
Deactivating the ad blocker also increases the chance for clicks if the ad is relevant. And of course all online advertising tracks IPs so that you cannot click one ad several times - the only revenue is generated by unique clicks.
Also, yes you can come up with a eCPM (Effective Cost Per Mille) for the ad revenue generated from 1,000 views but that's just used to predict revenue, that's not the actual revenue. The actual revenue comes from the clicks. eCPM is simply the average money earned per thousand views.
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On May 03 2011 09:16 CrazyCow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 08:44 hellsan631 wrote:On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works. There are 2 different forms of advertising (as par your example). Pay for each click, (CPC), and Pay for each Impression. Per impression is a lot cheaper form of advertising and works for most products and services (what non-internet companies use). I would say this is the most common form of ads seen on justin tv (pizza ads, product placement, etc). Paying per click is mainly for internet busniess, and the market is much larger and easier to access (you have to go out to visit a store, but can just click online), thus, many large companies that offer services and products on the outside world will go for the impressions, and not clicks. Im 90% sure that the "commercials" are per impression, meaning, if you have adblock off, you will basically be giving X amount to the person, regardless if you click or not. The first informed reply to my post. I see the Justin.tv ads as very similar to YouTube ads and I know that YouTube ads are PPC, as that's how Google Adsense works. I would assume that Justin.tv uses the same model, however I may be wrong. Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 08:18 seffer wrote:On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works. No... I'm almost sure it's for views. Why streamers tell people to turn off their ad blocker if it wasn't the VIEWS that earned money? Someone who takes the time to install an ad blocker isn't going to click on an ad anyways. And someone could just click on an ad 10000000 times to get money. Money per viewer makes more sense. Deactivating the ad blocker also increases the chance for clicks if the ad is relevant. And of course all online advertising tracks IPs so that you cannot click one ad several times - the only revenue is generated by unique clicks. Also, yes you can come up with a eCPM (Effective Cost Per Mille) for the ad revenue generated from 1,000 views but that's just used to predict revenue, that's not the actual revenue. The actual revenue comes from the clicks. eCPM is simply the average money earned per thousand views.
You're wrong about YouTube ads as well. I know for a fact that all partnered channels get paid based upon views and not clicks, It's somewhere in the region of $2.50 per 1000 views.
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On May 03 2011 09:16 CrazyCow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 08:44 hellsan631 wrote:On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works. There are 2 different forms of advertising (as par your example). Pay for each click, (CPC), and Pay for each Impression. Per impression is a lot cheaper form of advertising and works for most products and services (what non-internet companies use). I would say this is the most common form of ads seen on justin tv (pizza ads, product placement, etc). Paying per click is mainly for internet busniess, and the market is much larger and easier to access (you have to go out to visit a store, but can just click online), thus, many large companies that offer services and products on the outside world will go for the impressions, and not clicks. Im 90% sure that the "commercials" are per impression, meaning, if you have adblock off, you will basically be giving X amount to the person, regardless if you click or not. The first informed reply to my post. I see the Justin.tv ads as very similar to YouTube ads and I know that YouTube ads are PPC, as that's how Google Adsense works. I would assume that Justin.tv uses the same model, however I may be wrong. Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 08:18 seffer wrote:On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works. No... I'm almost sure it's for views. Why streamers tell people to turn off their ad blocker if it wasn't the VIEWS that earned money? Someone who takes the time to install an ad blocker isn't going to click on an ad anyways. And someone could just click on an ad 10000000 times to get money. Money per viewer makes more sense. Deactivating the ad blocker also increases the chance for clicks if the ad is relevant. And of course all online advertising tracks IPs so that you cannot click one ad several times - the only revenue is generated by unique clicks. Also, yes you can come up with a eCPM (Effective Cost Per Mille) for the ad revenue generated from 1,000 views but that's just used to predict revenue, that's not the actual revenue. The actual revenue comes from the clicks. eCPM is simply the average money earned per thousand views.
How exactly is it the first informed reply to your post? Everyone has said the same thing; you're wrong in thinking that Justin.tv pays via ad clicks and not views/impressions.
If you actually watched a stream with ad blocker disabled, you'd see that when the streamer types /commercial it runs a commercial which, "...directly supports <insert streamer here>". It's not like it asks if I want a commercial then I click on play; the commercial plays and the streamer is credited based on the amount of people that watched the ad and where they live (It may not even play in non-targeted areas, I'm not sure).
If anything I'd say your posts are the least informed on the subject in this thread.
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On May 03 2011 08:56 MrGingerKid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works. Not true. I have heard on multiple streams that the streamer gets .2 cents per viewer per commercial. This could be wrong, but I have heard it from multiple mods and admins on stream. this means $2 per 1000 viewers per commercial. so a stream with 5k viewers with 4 commercials an hour can make $40 an hour. Once again this is merely what I've heard from different sources.
It's $.002 cents per viewer that watches the commercial. Obviously, the more you stream, the more you make. I believe Idra is the person I've seen with the highest number of viewers ever at 11k or something. He was making $22 per commercial, which isn't bad considering most games last 15-20 minutes tops.
Pros that stream a lot and are known in the community should be able to make $50k+ pre-tax quite easily. Taxes would drop that down by a bit though. Just look at Destiny. He isn't a pro and he's making ~$60k a year just streaming and giving lessons. That's pretty damn good and it should only keep going up if he starts placing really high in tournaments. One thing I do wonder is how many lessons Idra gives. He said in SOTG that he had 7 hours booked at once when his rates were $150 /hour. Now, they are at $300 /hour. How many lessons does he give? O_o
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Does any1 know exactly how to get into this? im currently ranked top 30 GM and im saving $$ to buy a new computer so i can start streaming. However 800-1k is alot to drop if im not guna be able to make any money back. Id love it if someone could pm me concrete information on how to get into this type of thing.
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I think that most pro-gamers lack most is job security. I mean people are like whoa 10k prize pool!!!!! But that isn't much to live on. And to argue that pro-gamers aren't being paid as much as pro athletes is...
Yeah,I know pro-gamers can argue but college debts and what not, but its the college grads that have a safer security in knowing that they will have a steady job coming in for the rest of their working lives. A Life of a pro-gamer isn't all its luster. Playing games for fun is much more fun than betting my food and house over how well I do in that game. I highly doubt the western e-sports' sponsors are paying their players a salary they can live on.
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On May 03 2011 09:59 goddess wrote:+ Show Spoiler +idra woke up, ate and played sheth for $200.
Yeah but how long can he keep that up for, for a few years? Then what.
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On May 03 2011 10:01 JEcho wrote:
Does any1 know exactly how to get into this? im currently ranked top 30 GM and im saving $$ to buy a new computer so i can start streaming. However 800-1k is alot to drop if im not guna be able to make any money back. Id love it if someone could pm me concrete information on how to get into this type of thing.
Find Destiny's AMA thread on Reddit and read it. The best way to get attention in the SC2 Streaming scene is to have an personality. I watch Destiny's stream from time to time because I think he's hilarious. If you're going to be that guy that just plays games, doesn't talk and is outright boring, you'll never get more than 200 viewers.
On May 03 2011 10:02 pHelix Equilibria wrote:
I think that most pro-gamers lack most is job security. I mean people are like whoa 10k prize pool!!!!! But that isn't much to live on. And to argue that pro-gamers aren't being paid as much as pro athletes is...
Yeah,I know pro-gamers can argue but college debts and what not, but its the college grads that have a safer security in knowing that they will have a steady job coming in for the rest of their working lives. A Life of a pro-gamer isn't all its luster. Playing games for fun is much more fun than betting my food and house over how well I do in that game. I highly doubt the western e-sports' sponsors are paying their players a salary they can live on.
I believe FXO pays their player's a salary and most known pros have streams with 2k-4k people watching every day while they practice. They can easily live off of that if they really want to, but you are right. Who knows how long they can live off of this life style. I guess we'll eventually see some pros move on and go back to school or something.
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I believe FXO pays their player's a salary and most known pros have streams with 2k-4k people watching every day while they practice. They can easily live off of that if they really want to.
But when you talk about what people earn salary wise, you have to account for in its security. They must real comfortably year to year. Will FXO and ESPORTS teams guarantee their players a pension plan? So the money coming in from their streams must be alot of money!! So jealous!!
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It's really anyone's guess actually. The progaming scene outside of Korea is really premature.
Take IdrA for example, the most well-known SC2 player of NA.
-He took several 2-5 grand wins from various tourneys in last 12 months.
-He also did bunch of product placement videos in his casts (ATi)
-Streaming revenue from his daily casts
So they're not making bank by any means now. No more than what a college grad would make (40-50K).
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On May 03 2011 11:07 ArghUScaredMe wrote:
It's really anyone's guess actually. The progaming scene outside of Korea is really premature.
Take IdrA for example, the most well-known SC2 player of NA.
-He took several 2-5 grand wins from various tourneys in last 12 months.
-He also did bunch of product placement videos in his casts (ATi)
-Streaming revenue from his daily casts
So they're not making bank by any means now. No more than what a college grad would make (40-50K).
I am 100% positive Idra is making more than 40-50k, Destiny is making 60k. Idra charges 300 dollars for one hour of coaching. He could do 5 hours of coaching a week and make 75k just from that. Add in his stream, tournament wins, advertising, possibly salary. He is making good money.
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On May 03 2011 11:49 Kvothe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 11:07 ArghUScaredMe wrote:
It's really anyone's guess actually. The progaming scene outside of Korea is really premature.
Take IdrA for example, the most well-known SC2 player of NA.
-He took several 2-5 grand wins from various tourneys in last 12 months.
-He also did bunch of product placement videos in his casts (ATi)
-Streaming revenue from his daily casts
So they're not making bank by any means now. No more than what a college grad would make (40-50K). I am 100% positive Idra is making more than 40-50k, Destiny is making 60k. Idra charges 300 dollars for one hour of coaching. He could do 5 hours of coaching a week and make 75k just from that. Add in his stream, tournament wins, advertising, possibly salary. He is making good money.
LOL how does destiny make 60k?
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Why does it matter how much they earn? They get to do what they love for a living, that is worth more than any salary.
(though 6 figures would be nice on top of doing what you love)
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On May 03 2011 11:53 _Darwin_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 11:49 Kvothe wrote:On May 03 2011 11:07 ArghUScaredMe wrote:
It's really anyone's guess actually. The progaming scene outside of Korea is really premature.
Take IdrA for example, the most well-known SC2 player of NA.
-He took several 2-5 grand wins from various tourneys in last 12 months.
-He also did bunch of product placement videos in his casts (ATi)
-Streaming revenue from his daily casts
So they're not making bank by any means now. No more than what a college grad would make (40-50K). I am 100% positive Idra is making more than 40-50k, Destiny is making 60k. Idra charges 300 dollars for one hour of coaching. He could do 5 hours of coaching a week and make 75k just from that. Add in his stream, tournament wins, advertising, possibly salary. He is making good money. LOL how does destiny make 60k?
He consistently has a lot of viewers and streams 10+hrs a day in addition to about 2 lessons every day?
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On Justin.tv, for the very popular streamers (or their peaks, talking about sc2 here btw) several thousand viewers will give you a 1-2 dollars per advertisement. If you give 2-3 advertisements between ladder matches... and play 4 games an hour... wow, that's a good deal! Roughly $16 an hour, and you still get money from prizes and sponsorships, not to mention progamers probably play more hours than the average worker!
Less popular streamers or streamers not at their peak (more about 2k) will still get $5 or so per hour, so that's quite amazing. Not to mention some money you get from VOD views ^_^
I forget the value, Cella mentioned it a few times, I think on Justin.tv it was 0.01 cents per viewer per ad, or 0.02 per viewer per ad. Quite a lot!
It's $.002 cents per viewer that watches the commercial. Obviously, the more you stream, the more you make. I believe Idra is the person I've seen with the highest number of viewers ever at 11k or something. He was making $22 per commercial, which isn't bad considering most games last 15-20 minutes tops.
Redo your math, that is 22 cents.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
fun thread but so far this has been a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea judging/speculating on the salaries of players based on what Destiny said in an interview and what IdrA charges for coaching.
btw he charges that much not because he is in that high of demand but because he doesn't want to coach.. unless someone pays him tremendously.
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On May 03 2011 12:02 iNcontroL wrote:
fun thread but so far this has been a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea judging/speculating on the salaries of players based on what Destiny said in an interview and what IdrA charges for coaching.
btw he charges that much not because he is in that high of demand but because he doesn't want to coach.. unless someone pays him tremendously.
that's all we can do
judge and speculate
we are ill-informed
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Or we could Mortal Kombat like in the "Korean Scouting Method" thread...
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On May 03 2011 11:53 _Darwin_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 11:49 Kvothe wrote:On May 03 2011 11:07 ArghUScaredMe wrote:
It's really anyone's guess actually. The progaming scene outside of Korea is really premature.
Take IdrA for example, the most well-known SC2 player of NA.
-He took several 2-5 grand wins from various tourneys in last 12 months.
-He also did bunch of product placement videos in his casts (ATi)
-Streaming revenue from his daily casts
So they're not making bank by any means now. No more than what a college grad would make (40-50K). I am 100% positive Idra is making more than 40-50k, Destiny is making 60k. Idra charges 300 dollars for one hour of coaching. He could do 5 hours of coaching a week and make 75k just from that. Add in his stream, tournament wins, advertising, possibly salary. He is making good money. LOL how does destiny make 60k?
I would like to know this as well!
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On May 03 2011 11:49 Kvothe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 11:07 ArghUScaredMe wrote:
It's really anyone's guess actually. The progaming scene outside of Korea is really premature.
Take IdrA for example, the most well-known SC2 player of NA.
-He took several 2-5 grand wins from various tourneys in last 12 months.
-He also did bunch of product placement videos in his casts (ATi)
-Streaming revenue from his daily casts
So they're not making bank by any means now. No more than what a college grad would make (40-50K). I am 100% positive Idra is making more than 40-50k, Destiny is making 60k. Idra charges 300 dollars for one hour of coaching. He could do 5 hours of coaching a week and make 75k just from that. Add in his stream, tournament wins, advertising, possibly salary. He is making good money.
I want to know where all these rich nubs live that can pay $300 dollars for a friggin' SC2 lesson. I mean really, that blows me away. but more power to Idra if he can do it. that's crazy-town.
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On May 03 2011 12:19 lazydino wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 11:53 _Darwin_ wrote:On May 03 2011 11:49 Kvothe wrote:On May 03 2011 11:07 ArghUScaredMe wrote:
It's really anyone's guess actually. The progaming scene outside of Korea is really premature.
Take IdrA for example, the most well-known SC2 player of NA.
-He took several 2-5 grand wins from various tourneys in last 12 months.
-He also did bunch of product placement videos in his casts (ATi)
-Streaming revenue from his daily casts
So they're not making bank by any means now. No more than what a college grad would make (40-50K). I am 100% positive Idra is making more than 40-50k, Destiny is making 60k. Idra charges 300 dollars for one hour of coaching. He could do 5 hours of coaching a week and make 75k just from that. Add in his stream, tournament wins, advertising, possibly salary. He is making good money. LOL how does destiny make 60k? I would like to know this as well!
He makes 5k a month, so 5k multiplied by 12 is 60k. assuming its a steady income, i can only guess that it ebbs and flows
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On May 03 2011 12:02 iNcontroL wrote:
fun thread but so far this has been a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea judging/speculating on the salaries of players based on what Destiny said in an interview and what IdrA charges for coaching.
btw he charges that much not because he is in that high of demand but because he doesn't want to coach.. unless someone pays him tremendously.
some how that doesn't surprise me
I think that its more professional if the pros don't talk about their saleries I would think that most of them are only doing it beacuse they love it so much and that they'd do it for korea style just for food and a place to sleep.
I would say however that idra hast to be making some hard bank right now and good for him he mentions his sponsors a lot and has really kept his mouth shut when he rages which hast to be rewarded somehow. Hes really a model pro gamer.
On May 03 2011 12:21 NoahNickels wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 11:49 Kvothe wrote:On May 03 2011 11:07 ArghUScaredMe wrote:
It's really anyone's guess actually. The progaming scene outside of Korea is really premature.
Take IdrA for example, the most well-known SC2 player of NA.
-He took several 2-5 grand wins from various tourneys in last 12 months.
-He also did bunch of product placement videos in his casts (ATi)
-Streaming revenue from his daily casts
So they're not making bank by any means now. No more than what a college grad would make (40-50K). I am 100% positive Idra is making more than 40-50k, Destiny is making 60k. Idra charges 300 dollars for one hour of coaching. He could do 5 hours of coaching a week and make 75k just from that. Add in his stream, tournament wins, advertising, possibly salary. He is making good money. I want to know where all these rich nubs live that can pay $300 dollars for a friggin' SC2 lesson. I mean really, that blows me away. but more power to Idra if he can do it. that's crazy-town.
If you've ever seen his stream you'd know instantly. Hes got the craziest macro mechanics in NA. you hear so much in his games that hes supply blocked the SECOND his overlord's pop out. if anyone can teach you how to macro its idra.
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I know it's none of our business what the pros make but from an outside perspective it seems like it would be really hard to make a living at pro SC2. Partly I'm curious just because I'd like to know that the pros are making a liveable income!
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Incontrol is probably like but I only make 15k a year guys, and 90% of that is from casting NASL, no way anyone else can make any money.
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On May 03 2011 12:32 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
I know it's none of our business what the pros make but from an outside perspective it seems like it would be really hard to make a living at pro SC2. Partly I'm curious just because I'd like to know that the pros are making a liveable income!
Wait why is it not our business? It's very convenient for the general population to know the salaries of professional players, of any sport. That is why every professional athlete's salary, endorsement deals are pretty well known.
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I had always been curious... Does anyone know how much Boxer had earn throughout his life? Back in BW and right now. So lifetime earnings for him?
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For what seems like a modest or average yearly income, I'd say pro sc2 players do quite well, especially considering that they are doing something interesting and fun. And I'm sure there are a few exceptional cases where they are just living the dream (MC 160k+ prize money ~_~_
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On May 03 2011 12:33 Kvothe wrote:
Incontrol is probably like but I only make 15k a year guys, and 90% of that is from casting NASL, no way anyone else can make any money.
He is still making more than the average english graduate out of univeristy :D
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On May 03 2011 12:36 AeroX42 wrote:
I had always been curious... Does anyone know how much Boxer had earn throughout his life? Back in BW and right now. So lifetime earnings for him?
I'm sure boxer has made over a million dollars in his career, I think on wiki it said he was making 300k a year at the height. He still does commercials and endorsements, so you could probably say over 2 million quite easily.
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I'm pretty sure it's not very much. I'm guessing it's around $20-$25k a year for a top pro, and anyone lower than that probably around $10k - $15k a year. Now don't go taking this as a fact, as I have no actual idea .
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On May 03 2011 12:39 Kvothe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 12:36 AeroX42 wrote:
I had always been curious... Does anyone know how much Boxer had earn throughout his life? Back in BW and right now. So lifetime earnings for him? I'm sure boxer has made over a million dollars in his career, I think on wiki it said he was making 300k a year at the height. He still does commercials and endorsements, so you could probably say over 2 million quite easily.
2 million is quite farfetched. A million is still a hefty amount.
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On May 03 2011 12:42 raf3776 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 12:39 Kvothe wrote:On May 03 2011 12:36 AeroX42 wrote:
I had always been curious... Does anyone know how much Boxer had earn throughout his life? Back in BW and right now. So lifetime earnings for him? I'm sure boxer has made over a million dollars in his career, I think on wiki it said he was making 300k a year at the height. He still does commercials and endorsements, so you could probably say over 2 million quite easily. 2 million is quite farfetched. A million is still a hefty amount.
Fatality earned over a million dollars in 1 year, its not a hefty amount for the regions most influential video game player, ever.
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boxer's a special case because he's 'the face of starcraft' and he'll get paid a lot more for advertisements and sponsorships etc.
i know for a fact that a certain pro makes 30k/year off sponsorships alone which isn't that much
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On May 03 2011 12:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On Justin.tv, for the very popular streamers (or their peaks, talking about sc2 here btw) several thousand viewers will give you a 1-2 dollars per advertisement. If you give 2-3 advertisements between ladder matches... and play 4 games an hour... wow, that's a good deal! Roughly $16 an hour, and you still get money from prizes and sponsorships, not to mention progamers probably play more hours than the average worker! Less popular streamers or streamers not at their peak (more about 2k) will still get $5 or so per hour, so that's quite amazing. Not to mention some money you get from VOD views ^_^ I forget the value, Cella mentioned it a few times, I think on Justin.tv it was 0.01 cents per viewer per ad, or 0.02 per viewer per ad. Quite a lot! Show nested quote +It's $.002 cents per viewer that watches the commercial. Obviously, the more you stream, the more you make. I believe Idra is the person I've seen with the highest number of viewers ever at 11k or something. He was making $22 per commercial, which isn't bad considering most games last 15-20 minutes tops. Redo your math, that is 22 cents.
Hopefully, I'm not being an idiot here since I've been studying all night, but here you go.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/KCyeT.jpg)
On May 03 2011 12:02 iNcontroL wrote:
fun thread but so far this has been a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea judging/speculating on the salaries of players based on what Destiny said in an interview and what IdrA charges for coaching.
btw he charges that much not because he is in that high of demand but because he doesn't want to coach.. unless someone pays him tremendously.
Why not shed some light on it then instead of saying "LOL noobs speculating?" Otherwise, just let us speculate. There's only one player we know of and it's Destiny since he's come out and said how much he makes.
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There's been one link to compiled tournament winnings and one link to TSL salaries. Beyond that it's been 3 pages of people talking out of their asses and a sprinkling of pure speculation over the top.
I think we all know that Idra, Destiny, MC, and the like are earning a good income. I'd love to hear some of the less visible tournament players/streamers chime in, or someone who is in the know, on what kind of income they pull in and how. Guys like QXC, SeleCT, Ret, Moonglade, etc. They don't seem to make enough from tournament winnings to live on but they must have some support or income coming from somewhere to make it possible to play full time.
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Dont worry They will get a lot of money when proscene move to sc2
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Ya I don't really understand why professional gamers keep they're finances so secret. I mean if they want to be considered on the status as professional athletes, then their salaries should be made public.
The only reason I could think they wouldn't want the money disclosed to the public is because they either make to much money or not enough.
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I get the impression that this is a topic that the different teams' management generally frown upon players talking about. I've seen this topic come up a few times before, and every time, it always ends without any real information being presented by those that do know.
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I personally don't understand why there's so much cloak-and-dagger nonsense with regards to pro earnings in SC2. What's there to hide? I mean, if I wanted to try my damndest to be a pro, I would want to know what I'm aiming for (should I reach the top).
It's very weird that it's kept such a big secret.
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On May 03 2011 13:20 yarkO wrote:
I personally don't understand why there's so much cloak-and-dagger nonsense with regards to pro earnings in SC2. What's there to hide? I mean, if I wanted to try my damndest to be a pro, I would want to know what I'm aiming for (should I reach the top).
It's very weird that it's kept such a big secret.
I'm on the same boat as you are it's like their own little secret. I would like to know how much guys like TLO, Huk and Jinro make right down to the last penny. Professional athletes make huge multi million dollar contacts and you hear about it all the time and you see it on TV. It grow the game because people wanna be just like them. I don't see why players try so hard to hide how much they make I think it will be good for the sport in general if people knew.
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On May 03 2011 12:55 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 12:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On Justin.tv, for the very popular streamers (or their peaks, talking about sc2 here btw) several thousand viewers will give you a 1-2 dollars per advertisement. If you give 2-3 advertisements between ladder matches... and play 4 games an hour... wow, that's a good deal! Roughly $16 an hour, and you still get money from prizes and sponsorships, not to mention progamers probably play more hours than the average worker! Less popular streamers or streamers not at their peak (more about 2k) will still get $5 or so per hour, so that's quite amazing. Not to mention some money you get from VOD views ^_^ I forget the value, Cella mentioned it a few times, I think on Justin.tv it was 0.01 cents per viewer per ad, or 0.02 per viewer per ad. Quite a lot! It's $.002 cents per viewer that watches the commercial. Obviously, the more you stream, the more you make. I believe Idra is the person I've seen with the highest number of viewers ever at 11k or something. He was making $22 per commercial, which isn't bad considering most games last 15-20 minutes tops. Redo your math, that is 22 cents. Hopefully, I'm not being an idiot here since I've been studying all night, but here you go. Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 12:02 iNcontroL wrote:
fun thread but so far this has been a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea judging/speculating on the salaries of players based on what Destiny said in an interview and what IdrA charges for coaching.
btw he charges that much not because he is in that high of demand but because he doesn't want to coach.. unless someone pays him tremendously. Why not shed some light on it then instead of saying "LOL noobs speculating?" Otherwise, just let us speculate. There's only one player we know of and it's Destiny since he's come out and said how much he makes.
Hmm I guess the money part is kinda confusing, first it says $ which indicates it's in dollars, but then after it says "cents" which actually means 0.002 cents and not 0.002 dollar. Anyhow it should be $0.002 which indeed is $22/ad.
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Calgary25967 Posts
On May 03 2011 12:55 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 12:02 iNcontroL wrote:
fun thread but so far this has been a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea judging/speculating on the salaries of players based on what Destiny said in an interview and what IdrA charges for coaching.
btw he charges that much not because he is in that high of demand but because he doesn't want to coach.. unless someone pays him tremendously. Why not shed some light on it then instead of saying "LOL noobs speculating?" Otherwise, just let us speculate. There's only one player we know of and it's Destiny since he's come out and said how much he makes.
Agreed.
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On May 03 2011 12:02 iNcontroL wrote:
fun thread but so far this has been a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea judging/speculating on the salaries of players based on what Destiny said in an interview and what IdrA charges for coaching.
btw he charges that much not because he is in that high of demand but because he doesn't want to coach.. unless someone pays him tremendously.
Sure would be nice if someone informed on such matters could make a post in the thread to set everyone straight...
I realize it's not exactly "polite" to talk about such things, but you could give us a ballpark-type figure. Like the range that sponsored players make through their team affiliation. I imagine it's in the 8-12K per annum range, but that's purely a guess.
I also wonder about how much casters such as yourself and Artosis/Tasteless make. Is it similar to, say, minor league baseball play-by-play guys?
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On May 03 2011 12:42 raf3776 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 12:39 Kvothe wrote:On May 03 2011 12:36 AeroX42 wrote:
I had always been curious... Does anyone know how much Boxer had earn throughout his life? Back in BW and right now. So lifetime earnings for him? I'm sure boxer has made over a million dollars in his career, I think on wiki it said he was making 300k a year at the height. He still does commercials and endorsements, so you could probably say over 2 million quite easily. 2 million is quite farfetched. A million is still a hefty amount.
No it really isn't considering he is the poster boy for BW. He also has his own book out, I'm sure he's making bank off that.
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Not really keen on the top heavy prize of GSL. I just feel that just stifles competition too much. I do know just being Code S provides some stability so I guess that's OK.
It's like "I'm poor, I'm poor, I'm poor, I'm poor, I'm poor, I'm poor, YES I WON AND HAVE STABLE INCOME FOR A DECADE LOL"
Of course if MC decides to splurge like all big lottery winners he will be poor again in no time flat.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 03 2011 13:40 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 12:55 Joementum wrote:On May 03 2011 12:02 iNcontroL wrote:
fun thread but so far this has been a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea judging/speculating on the salaries of players based on what Destiny said in an interview and what IdrA charges for coaching.
btw he charges that much not because he is in that high of demand but because he doesn't want to coach.. unless someone pays him tremendously. Why not shed some light on it then instead of saying "LOL noobs speculating?" Otherwise, just let us speculate. There's only one player we know of and it's Destiny since he's come out and said how much he makes. Agreed.
There is no way to come off as good talking about how much you make playing sc2. And it's just not a good idea.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
A. there was no making fun in my post wtf?
B. How am I holding back ESPORTS by saying people don't know pro gamer salaries?
C. WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
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On May 03 2011 13:56 iNcontroL wrote:
A. there was no making fun in my post wtf?
B. How am I holding back ESPORTS by saying people don't know pro gamer salaries?
C. WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
I agree, I guess I was always taught its rude to ask someone how much money they make.. but in athletics everyone's team contracts are sorta transparent so I can see why people would wanna know in this situation. I don't think you have any obligation to tell anybody, but lots of people are curious
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Just like any other paying job, people don't disclose how much money make. Lets be respectful people..
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people's salaries should be their own business unless they want to make it other people's business
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Under normal circumstances it's not uh "polite" to talk about how much you make or to ask someone. Usually in sports, they release that information willingly to hype up certain players.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
is inori real?
User was warned for this post
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On May 03 2011 12:02 iNcontroL wrote:
fun thread but so far this has been a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea judging/speculating on the salaries of players based on what Destiny said in an interview and what IdrA charges for coaching.
btw he charges that much not because he is in that high of demand but because he doesn't want to coach.. unless someone pays him tremendously.
Idra, do you really hate money more than coaching?
You crazy bastard. Make your $150 to 200/hour while you're famous.
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There is not much to talk about because there isn't much pro-gamers' salaries to talk about.
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Nobody is demanding hard numbers. Nobody is demanding information that's personal. There's people on this board who are in a position to give us some idea just what a destitute, poverty stricken existence our average progamer is experiencing 
Like seriously, how many of these guys playing in tournaments are still working part time somewhere? Or rather how many are setting benjamins on fire in the parking lot for fun?
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lol @the incontrol haters. The guy has wayyyyyyyyyyy more sense than you do.
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I just recalled something that hasn't been brought up. White-Ra commented that he got a job because there was just no way he could support a family as a progamer. I don't know if he stuck with that though since he still seems to be pretty damn active.
But that's coming from freaking WhiteDuckload-Ra, who's skill and marketability aren't easily matched.
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i like the way incontrol approaches this.
and lol at destiny i don't believe he makes 60k a year.
my personal guess is for people like tlo, huk, idra, that they get 1000-2000$ per month as salary, some tourney winnings here and there (don't forget that the same player doesn't win many tournaments, all tha tprize pool money is distributed between many people who constantly battle at the top)
and some bonus money for stuff like showmatches, an ad here or there, hardware marketing etc.
so ye.
i'd also say that there is a HUGE difference between people like Boxer for korea or IdrA for the us, not to talk about the broodwar top 10 players.
idra for example makes much more than the "average" pro, leaving it only a nice income for the very few top players.
saying stuff like HD or husky make alot is just something to be laughed at, what are they doing besides gerneating tons of views on youtube? they get a couple of thousands in a year.
Tasteless and Artosis are doing very well obviously, casting such a big tourney like GOM and doing all other small stuff adding up, Day9 comes right after them.
many pros in europe are from the eastern states and guess why? cause you need only very little amount of euros(like 350€) to live there(hello to Empire.Kas, dimaga), and with these hundreds of Go4SC2 cups in a week they can win lots of tournament, in their cases it's not the salary, but the tourney winings
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On May 03 2011 14:16 r3d33m3r wrote:
i like the way incontrol approaches this.
and lol at destiny i don't believe he makes 60k a year.
my personal guess is for people like tlo, huk, idra, that they get 1000-2000$ per month as salary, some tourney winnings here and there (don't forget that the same player doesn't win many tournaments, all tha tprize pool money is distributed between many people who constantly battle at the top)
and some bonus money for stuff like showmatches, an ad here or there, hardware marketing etc.
so ye.
i'd also say that there is a HUGE difference between people like Boxer for korea or IdrA for the us, not to talk about the broodwar top 10 players.
idra for example makes much more than the "average" pro, leaving it only a nice income for the very few top players.
saying stuff like HD or husky make alot is just something to be laughed at, what are they doing besides gerneating tons of views on youtube? they get a couple of thousands in a year.
Tasteless and Artosis are doing very well obviously, casting such a big tourney like GOM and doing all other small stuff adding up, Day9 comes right after them.
many pros in europe are from the eastern states and guess why? cause you need only very little amount of euros(like 350€) to live there(hello to Empire.Kas, dimaga), and with these hundreds of Go4SC2 cups in a week they can win lots of tournament, in their cases it's not the salary, but the tourney winings
HD, Husky, TotalBiscuit, and others make money from Youtube partnership ads. Day9 makes money off Blip.tv and I think his Youtube account as well. I don't think he makes anything off his live stream since I don't ever recall any ads he runs. I'm assuming they're paid if they are invited to cast something unless they are very charitable to take time out to do it.
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Or we can all just conclude instead of all this guesstimation and "speculation". It is safe to assume that you do not go into the pro-gaming to be rich, to have job security, or a stable form of income.
And to the argument, oh but they do what they love, living the dream life is shallow. Do doctors or teachers not love what they do? Or at the least, do something of more value to society?
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I think incontrol's situation wrt to salary is more complicated and should probably best be private because of his involvement with organizing NASL. Organizers should lead the way in building esports and will probably make some money on it (well-earned imho, if you can organize a pro esports league, you deserve it). I wouldn't be surprised if the GOM organizers make more than any players.
.2 cents per viewer per ad on Justin or Youtube is good to know, though. Husky is probably doing ok. I'm going to go watch Huk now and help him earn some Korean beer money.
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On May 03 2011 08:16 Holcan wrote:
good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less.
A couple of years ago that would likely be true, but With StarCraft 2 and a much larger E-Sports scene in North America and Europe its alot better then that and still growing.
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On May 03 2011 14:16 r3d33m3r wrote:
i like the way incontrol approaches this.
and lol at destiny i don't believe he makes 60k a year.
my personal guess is for people like tlo, huk, idra, that they get 1000-2000$ per month as salary, some tourney winnings here and there (don't forget that the same player doesn't win many tournaments, all tha tprize pool money is distributed between many people who constantly battle at the top)
and some bonus money for stuff like showmatches, an ad here or there, hardware marketing etc.
so ye.
i'd also say that there is a HUGE difference between people like Boxer for korea or IdrA for the us, not to talk about the broodwar top 10 players.
idra for example makes much more than the "average" pro, leaving it only a nice income for the very few top players.
saying stuff like HD or husky make alot is just something to be laughed at, what are they doing besides gerneating tons of views on youtube? they get a couple of thousands in a year.
Tasteless and Artosis are doing very well obviously, casting such a big tourney like GOM and doing all other small stuff adding up, Day9 comes right after them.
many pros in europe are from the eastern states and guess why? cause you need only very little amount of euros(like 350€) to live there(hello to Empire.Kas, dimaga), and with these hundreds of Go4SC2 cups in a week they can win lots of tournament, in their cases it's not the salary, but the tourney winings
Eh I dunno man.. I remember seeing a youtube income estimator created by a guy that was a partner on youtube and Husky was pulling in ~$700 / day when the banelings song was newish. I can't see any pro's coming into the thread and saying "I make x amount of dollars / month" or anything similar. I just hope that the players that do pull in a decent amount declare it on their taxes..
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On May 03 2011 08:33 Kvothe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 08:16 Holcan wrote:
good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less. Quit talking out of your ass, you have zero clue.
LOL You said what we are all thinking.
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I believe it's more than you guys think.
incontrol, in the last year alone, has over 1k hours of coaching (says he tries to avg 5 hrs a day, 5 days a week? perhaps I just made that number up but I think I heard it somewhere) which would be 25 hrs a week. we'll say he takes off 4 weeks a year total (on the upside) that'd be 48 weeks a year. 25 * 48 = 1200 hours a year.
(that's on the low low side).
ATM he offers 1 hr for 80 dollars, with bulk deals and such. Yet he used to only charge 20-25 so we'll avg it all out to 35 (AGAIN ALL ESTIMATIONS ON THE LOW SIDE) this would mean that he's making 35 * 1200 = 42000 a year ONLY on coaching. That excludes EG salary, any tournament/showmatch wins, any NASL revenue, any streaming revenue, etc.
edit: say I'm completely wrong about the hours/amount he charges, so we'll half the hours this year to 600 and up the pay to 50 avg per hour, that'd still be 30000 only on coaching.
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On May 03 2011 14:27 IamAnton wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 08:16 Holcan wrote:
good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less. A couple of years ago that would likely be true, but With StarCraft 2 and a much larger E-Sports scene in North America and Europe its alot better then that and still growing.
A year and a half ago, my estimates for professional RTS players outside of Korea would be non-existent, this is very modest. This would be pro gamers from Europe and North America, of course.
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On May 03 2011 12:52 youngminii wrote:
boxer's a special case because he's 'the face of starcraft' and he'll get paid a lot more for advertisements and sponsorships etc.
i know for a fact that a certain pro makes 30k/year off sponsorships alone which isn't that much
You are either a rich kid or just a kid to say that 30k a year isn't a lot.
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Calgary25967 Posts
On May 03 2011 13:53 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:40 Chill wrote:On May 03 2011 12:55 Joementum wrote:On May 03 2011 12:02 iNcontroL wrote:
fun thread but so far this has been a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea judging/speculating on the salaries of players based on what Destiny said in an interview and what IdrA charges for coaching.
btw he charges that much not because he is in that high of demand but because he doesn't want to coach.. unless someone pays him tremendously. Why not shed some light on it then instead of saying "LOL noobs speculating?" Otherwise, just let us speculate. There's only one player we know of and it's Destiny since he's come out and said how much he makes. Agreed. There is no way to come off as good talking about how much you make playing sc2. And it's just not a good idea.
I agree. So berating the curious doesn't add anything.
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I realize why Teams won't publish specific player salaries but is there something wrong with publishing the average salary of the team? Sometimes it seems to me like some of these teams are almost trying to hide how much they pay their players which I don't understand unless they are worried other teams will snipe their players. There are a lot of people right now who play SC2 a ton and make no money, getting paid to do something you already enjoy is an incentive regardless of the pay, that only becomes important later on when you are already getting paid but looking to make even more.
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On May 03 2011 14:16 r3d33m3r wrote:
i like the way incontrol approaches this.
and lol at destiny i don't believe he makes 60k a year.
my personal guess is for people like tlo, huk, idra, that they get 1000-2000$ per month as salary, some tourney winnings here and there (don't forget that the same player doesn't win many tournaments, all tha tprize pool money is distributed between many people who constantly battle at the top)
and some bonus money for stuff like showmatches, an ad here or there, hardware marketing etc.
so ye.
i'd also say that there is a HUGE difference between people like Boxer for korea or IdrA for the us, not to talk about the broodwar top 10 players.
idra for example makes much more than the "average" pro, leaving it only a nice income for the very few top players.
saying stuff like HD or husky make alot is just something to be laughed at, what are they doing besides gerneating tons of views on youtube? they get a couple of thousands in a year.
Tasteless and Artosis are doing very well obviously, casting such a big tourney like GOM and doing all other small stuff adding up, Day9 comes right after them.
many pros in europe are from the eastern states and guess why? cause you need only very little amount of euros(like 350€) to live there(hello to Empire.Kas, dimaga), and with these hundreds of Go4SC2 cups in a week they can win lots of tournament, in their cases it's not the salary, but the tourney winings
Speaking of people talking out of their ass... You would be dumb to believe Husky, HD and TB aren't making a lot of money off of Youtube. They get paid about $2 per 1000 ad impressions on the low side. Husky, on average, gets 200k-300k views per video he posts. Granted, not all of those views have ads, but let's just say only 100k viewers get ads. In that case, he's making $200 off of that video. He posts about 9-10 videos a week. They do make a lot of money on YouTube. That's why they focus so much on it. People like ShayCarl and KassemG work full time on their YouTube channels for a reason. It's hard as hell to get known, but it really pays off if you put a lot of work into it.
Assuming Husky or HD only make $200 a day (which is so damn low), they would make $73k a year. I wouldn't be surprised if they're making more than $100k a year already. If they are even half smart with their money, they should be set for life in just a few years considering their income just keeps going up and up. They still have a few more years before the SC2 hype dies down. HOTS is going to revive SC2 a bit and then the last expansion will revive SC2 interest again. These next few years are probably going to be the years they make the most money in so they should be prepared.
http://www.businessinsider.com/rising-youtube-stars-2011-1#
This is a nice article to just point out. Our man Day9 is on there . Although the numbers are probably a bit inflated, it's still something to think about.
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There is no way to come off as good talking about how much you make playing sc2. And it's just not a good idea.
I don't agree with this in some cases. For instance, MKP's parents did not like him playing SC2 so much and discouraged him from it, but once he was able to start making decent money from it and they saw that, they changed their attitude. If people outside the community can see that there is a possibility for individuals to make good money in SC2 it helps to fight against negative attitudes about gaming and encourages more people to become interested in the community.
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On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works.
no.
Do you perhaps use an ad-blocker? This is a common excuse given by people who use ad-blockers...but it is entirely false. It was true on the internet circa 1998, but not so much today.
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On May 03 2011 15:13 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +There is no way to come off as good talking about how much you make playing sc2. And it's just not a good idea. I don't agree with this in some cases. For instance, MKP's parents did not like him playing SC2 so much and discouraged him from it, but once he was able to start making decent money from it and they saw that, they changed their attitude. If people outside the community can see that there is a possibility for individuals to make good money in SC2 it helps to fight against negative attitudes about gaming and encourages more people to become interested in the community.
Unless the pay is so low that it truly wouldn't entice anyone. We know what top Korean players can make but the vast majority of Korean pros and foreign players probably aren't making much money at all.
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On May 03 2011 14:06 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:56 iNcontroL wrote:
A. there was no making fun in my post wtf?
B. How am I holding back ESPORTS by saying people don't know pro gamer salaries?
C. WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF A. It sure did sound like it. B. I didn't say you were holding it back, but you sure don't help it grow by saying "Wow you people are clueless, but I'm not helping you out either, just stating you're clueless!". C. Ok. About being rude and whatnot - nobody asked iNcontroL or Destiny or IdrA or whoever directly how much exactly is he making. Maybe, just maybe, some people want to know how much money they could potentially generate if they pursue pro-gaming. Would you consider it to be rude if asked "How much can software engineer earn?". I definitely wouldn't feel offended by such a question and could answer it with a good estimate without giving away my own salary.
I agree with this post. I think it's reasonable that people want to know how much a "typical" pro can make. Like it or not, money is an important (but not the only) factor when choosing a career path.
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On May 03 2011 12:33 Kvothe wrote:
Incontrol is probably like but I only make 15k a year guys, and 90% of that is from casting NASL, no way anyone else can make any money.
I don't know exactly how much he makes, but if you looked at how much he coaches there's no way he's only making 15k a year. I also know a few other people who are coaching 3-4 hours a day for $20-25/hr, which would amount to about 20k a year from that alone.
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On May 03 2011 15:27 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 14:06 Inori wrote:On May 03 2011 13:56 iNcontroL wrote:
A. there was no making fun in my post wtf?
B. How am I holding back ESPORTS by saying people don't know pro gamer salaries?
C. WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF A. It sure did sound like it. B. I didn't say you were holding it back, but you sure don't help it grow by saying "Wow you people are clueless, but I'm not helping you out either, just stating you're clueless!". C. Ok. About being rude and whatnot - nobody asked iNcontroL or Destiny or IdrA or whoever directly how much exactly is he making. Maybe, just maybe, some people want to know how much money they could potentially generate if they pursue pro-gaming. Would you consider it to be rude if asked "How much can software engineer earn?". I definitely wouldn't feel offended by such a question and could answer it with a good estimate without giving away my own salary. I agree with this post. I think it's reasonable that people want to know how much a "typical" pro can make. Like it or not, money is an important (but not the only) factor when choosing a career path.
Gaming isnt a career path, some people have been lucky enough to have it fall into their laps, but very few people who are pros set out to become a pro when they first started playing their game.
Michael Jordan was supposed to become a baseball player, with luck and timing a basketball was placed into his hands and history was forged.
Mauer could have become a NFL 3rd or even 2nd string QB, but instead focused on baseball and now has one of the best careers in the MLB.
The fate of winners is but on a whim, and the mere flapping the wings of a butterfly may be forever altering the future of winners to come.
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people don't become pro gamers for the money.
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On May 03 2011 08:18 seffer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works. No... I'm almost sure it's for views. Why streamers tell people to turn off their ad blocker if it wasn't the VIEWS that earned money? Someone who takes the time to install an ad blocker isn't going to click on an ad anyways. And someone could just click on an ad 10000000 times to get money. Money per viewer makes more sense.
Ads on sites generally work both ways, however a lot of the by click ones pay more per click rather then the ones per view. Why would they mention anywhere that goes by click to turn off adblockers if not for hoping people would both view and click on the ads?
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Aside from salaried players like Idra, FXO, or very top europeans, I doubt anyone is making more than your typical 9-5 job. To say that people are making more than 100k/year is ridiculous.
Destiny makes around 50-60k/year (he's said this in chat before) and that is for a streamer that spends 10+ hours/day streaming to 3k+ viewers. I doubt anyone makes more off streaming sc2 than him, so to say people are getting rich off this is highly doubtful.
Jtv ads paid by views, NOT BY CLICKS, and are $2 per 1000 viewers, so 3k viewers = $6 per commercial (assuming no adblock). I guess if Idra streamed more, he could theoretically get around $15-20 per commercial and make a really good living off that.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 03 2011 15:02 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:53 iNcontroL wrote:On May 03 2011 13:40 Chill wrote:On May 03 2011 12:55 Joementum wrote:On May 03 2011 12:02 iNcontroL wrote:
fun thread but so far this has been a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea judging/speculating on the salaries of players based on what Destiny said in an interview and what IdrA charges for coaching.
btw he charges that much not because he is in that high of demand but because he doesn't want to coach.. unless someone pays him tremendously. Why not shed some light on it then instead of saying "LOL noobs speculating?" Otherwise, just let us speculate. There's only one player we know of and it's Destiny since he's come out and said how much he makes. Agreed. There is no way to come off as good talking about how much you make playing sc2. And it's just not a good idea. I agree. So berating the curious doesn't add anything.
Nah, you are wrong.
They are speculating. Nobody is denying that. I posted confirming that indeed it is fruitless and they are basing their speculation on the wrong idea in regard to idra.
Wasn't berating.
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Australia8532 Posts
On May 03 2011 14:15 Sokalo wrote:
I just recalled something that hasn't been brought up. White-Ra commented that he got a job because there was just no way he could support a family as a progamer. I don't know if he stuck with that though since he still seems to be pretty damn active.
But that's coming from freaking WhiteDuckload-Ra, who's skill and marketability aren't easily matched.
But then again, when White-Ra went on that awesome run earlier in the year (maybe even late last year) it was said that in a few months he made more than the average salary for his country.
The ambiguity continues.
And LOL at all the responses to iNcontrol; the guy makes a comment about how this entire thread is about speculation and conjecture.. and he is holding back esports?
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On May 03 2011 15:36 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 15:27 Azzur wrote:On May 03 2011 14:06 Inori wrote:On May 03 2011 13:56 iNcontroL wrote:
A. there was no making fun in my post wtf?
B. How am I holding back ESPORTS by saying people don't know pro gamer salaries?
C. WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF A. It sure did sound like it. B. I didn't say you were holding it back, but you sure don't help it grow by saying "Wow you people are clueless, but I'm not helping you out either, just stating you're clueless!". C. Ok. About being rude and whatnot - nobody asked iNcontroL or Destiny or IdrA or whoever directly how much exactly is he making. Maybe, just maybe, some people want to know how much money they could potentially generate if they pursue pro-gaming. Would you consider it to be rude if asked "How much can software engineer earn?". I definitely wouldn't feel offended by such a question and could answer it with a good estimate without giving away my own salary. I agree with this post. I think it's reasonable that people want to know how much a "typical" pro can make. Like it or not, money is an important (but not the only) factor when choosing a career path. Gaming isnt a career path, some people have been lucky enough to have it fall into their laps, but very few people who are pros set out to become a pro when they first started playing their game. Michael Jordan was supposed to become a baseball player, with luck and timing a basketball was placed into his hands and history was forged. Mauer could have become a NFL 3rd or even 2nd string QB, but instead focused on baseball and now has one of the best careers in the MLB. The fate of winners is but on a whim, and the mere flapping the wings of a butterfly may be forever altering the future of winners to come.
I disagree - gaming is a career path. Is it easy and financially lucrative? I would say no, but that is besides the point.
There are people who choose to go on this path (just as many sports people try and make a living out of it). Knowing how much money can be made from this path is something that can influence decisions.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 03 2011 15:13 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +There is no way to come off as good talking about how much you make playing sc2. And it's just not a good idea. I don't agree with this in some cases. For instance, MKP's parents did not like him playing SC2 so much and discouraged him from it, but once he was able to start making decent money from it and they saw that, they changed their attitude. If people outside the community can see that there is a possibility for individuals to make good money in SC2 it helps to fight against negative attitudes about gaming and encourages more people to become interested in the community.
I disagree.
The very tip top 1% make enough money to live off of.
Then you have half THAT percent that make a wealthy living off of this game.
What job market would you want to enter where 1% of the people make a living off that money? It's false advertising.
But that is beyond the point. I was stating that I am uncomfortable with a bunch of people speculating on the income of progamers based off a bunch of false information or tid-bits they got from a yt video or some dude's coaching rate.
I am even further displeased with admins somehow painting me the villain and telling me I am "berating" people or PM'ing me and telling me I am not welcome in the thread (IntotheWOw)
really gross tbh
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Other than in Korea going pro is one of the worst things you can ever do in your life - along with those hardcore master league players with over 5k games played and still nothing to show for it...I swear they play for at least 5 hours a day and spend an additional 2 hours or so reviewing and finding strategies.
Look at Greg Fields, the biggest American superstar...18k in winnings over a year (about), maybe if you included a nice salary package of 25k and perhaps fringe coaching/donations/whatever of 2k (because seriously who pays couple hundred bucks for lessons), that comes up to 45k per year, that's about the average American GDP/capita. Very optimistic calculations.
Except that he probably won't be able to do this as a long-term career, as there's probably a burnout around age 32~ like most athletes suffer - an age when most counterparts are climbing the corporate ladder.
The bottom line is that youth-dependent superstars need to be making at least about 100k a year
in their prime to insure their future. I hear Greg is pretty smart, though, so he can at least complete some kind of degree in the future and start up an ordinary career. In that sense his situation is actually pretty alright, not due to e-sports, but because of his academic ability.
Now, how about those that aren't able to attend college?
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I disagree.
The very tip top 1% make enough money to live off of.
Then you have half THAT percent that make a wealthy living off of this game.
What job market would you want to enter where 1% of the people make a living off that money? It's false advertising.
I would argue many sports are the same. What percent of the people who play bball or football in high school are actually able to make a career out of it? That doesn't stop people from trying and teams hyping how much they pay. To be fair a wealthy living off of SC2 and a wealthy living off of pro sports are pretty far apart, but I put that more on esports being a very recent thing while those pro-sports have been established for much much longer.
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On May 03 2011 15:46 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 15:13 Duravi wrote:There is no way to come off as good talking about how much you make playing sc2. And it's just not a good idea. I don't agree with this in some cases. For instance, MKP's parents did not like him playing SC2 so much and discouraged him from it, but once he was able to start making decent money from it and they saw that, they changed their attitude. If people outside the community can see that there is a possibility for individuals to make good money in SC2 it helps to fight against negative attitudes about gaming and encourages more people to become interested in the community. But that is beyond the point. I was stating that I am uncomfortable with a bunch of people speculating on the income of progamers based off a bunch of false information or tid-bits they got from a yt video or some dude's coaching rate.
There's only one way out of that one, I'm afriad. Speculation will continue until people have concrete information, and that doesn't seem forthcoming.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 03 2011 15:53 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +I disagree.
The very tip top 1% make enough money to live off of.
Then you have half THAT percent that make a wealthy living off of this game.
What job market would you want to enter where 1% of the people make a living off that money? It's false advertising. I would argue many sports are the same. What percent of the people who play bball or football in high school are actually able to make a career out of it? That doesn't stop people from trying and teams hyping how much they pay.
Correct. But you wouldn't look your mom in the eye while watching an NFL game and go "Well I've decided I know what I want to do for a living! I'm going to be that 1% that makes it to the NFL!"
Or maybe you do. But they know you won't make it.
By all means chase the dream and go for it. I am obviously not one to say don't. But saying progamers having their earnings made public so kids can make the argument to their parents that they CAN earn a living playing this game all day is not a good argument imo.
You really going to stand behind that?
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On May 03 2011 08:06 Drlemur wrote:
Note: I'm pretty sure they aren't earning as much as they should. For the amount of entertainment they are providing us, I'd like to see these guys get paid like pro athletes --- the people running & casting TL, NASL, etc., should also be getting paid a living. Is it happening yet? If not, I hope it happens soon.
what...paid like pro athletes? lololol I mean I hope just like you do but this is wishful thinking at best. this will not happen anytime SOON. You are aware that the current scene is still developing and hasn't been fleshed out yet?
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On May 03 2011 15:46 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 15:13 Duravi wrote:There is no way to come off as good talking about how much you make playing sc2. And it's just not a good idea. I don't agree with this in some cases. For instance, MKP's parents did not like him playing SC2 so much and discouraged him from it, but once he was able to start making decent money from it and they saw that, they changed their attitude. If people outside the community can see that there is a possibility for individuals to make good money in SC2 it helps to fight against negative attitudes about gaming and encourages more people to become interested in the community. I disagree. The very tip top 1% make enough money to live off of. Then you have half THAT percent that make a wealthy living off of this game. What job market would you want to enter where 1% of the people make a living off that money? It's false advertising. But that is beyond the point. I was stating that I am uncomfortable with a bunch of people speculating on the income of progamers based off a bunch of false information or tid-bits they got from a yt video or some dude's coaching rate. I am even further displeased with admins somehow painting me the villain and telling me I am "berating" people or PM'ing me and telling me I am not welcome in the thread (IntotheWOw) really gross tbh
or you could just help all the speculators by being a kind person.
Let's say someone asked me "How much do interns, residents and accredited registrars earn in Australia? How much do Consultants earn? Whats the pay-grade differences between Public and Private Healthcare?"
I can happily give an estimate to all of those questions without exposing my own pay-grade. People like to know because people are curious. Some want to know before they start practicing hardcore to attempt to become a pro-gamer.
At the same time, I can understand that it is a social taboo to ask about salaries. I never asked how much my friend's dad was earning as a Engineer in high-end management. But yea - it's not hard to just let speculators know an estimate. Withholding information makes you look like an awesome guy
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On May 03 2011 15:53 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +I disagree.
The very tip top 1% make enough money to live off of.
Then you have half THAT percent that make a wealthy living off of this game.
What job market would you want to enter where 1% of the people make a living off that money? It's false advertising. I would argue many sports are the same. What percent of the people who play bball or football in high school are actually able to make a career out of it? That doesn't stop people from trying and teams hyping how much they pay. To be fair a wealthy living off of SC2 and a wealthy living off of pro sports are pretty far apart, but I put that more on esports being a very recent thing while those pro-sports have been established for much much longer.
Look at the pay scales for football...English football, that is, guys. Don't know about American. The top superstars are beyond wealthy...they're filthy rich. I could play for a year and retire happy.
Even your average first division (one step below premier league) player makes a pretty decent living out of it.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On May 03 2011 16:01 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 15:57 iNcontroL wrote:On May 03 2011 15:53 Duravi wrote:
I disagree.
The very tip top 1% make enough money to live off of.
Then you have half THAT percent that make a wealthy living off of this game.
What job market would you want to enter where 1% of the people make a living off that money? It's false advertising. But saying progamers having their earnings made public so kids can make the argument to their parents that they CAN earn a living playing this game all day is not a good argument imo. You really going to stand behind that? You're still missing the point that nobody gives a damn about how much exactly do you personally make. People speculate because nobody gives them reliable estimates.
Precisely. It's not hard to give an estimate, or even several estimates according to what each pro-gamer does - like if he streams with ads, if he coaches, what team contracts typically are for S-class, A-class players
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By all means chase the dream and go for it. I am obviously not one to say don't. But saying progamers having their earnings made public so kids can make the argument to their parents that they CAN earn a living playing this game all day is not a good argument imo.
You really going to stand behind that?
It gives hope to make money at something you enjoy. I had a roommate in college who now plays football in the NFL and one big reason he wanted to play football at a high level was because he had a relative who was already in the NFL and saw the outcome hard work in something he enjoyed could give him. He also had a back-up plan in case it didn't work out, so obviously it wise to be realistic about it and I totally agree with you in that respect. I just don't see a problem with releasing the AVERAGE amount those 1% do make.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On May 03 2011 15:59 JesusOurSaviour wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 15:46 iNcontroL wrote:On May 03 2011 15:13 Duravi wrote:There is no way to come off as good talking about how much you make playing sc2. And it's just not a good idea. I don't agree with this in some cases. For instance, MKP's parents did not like him playing SC2 so much and discouraged him from it, but once he was able to start making decent money from it and they saw that, they changed their attitude. If people outside the community can see that there is a possibility for individuals to make good money in SC2 it helps to fight against negative attitudes about gaming and encourages more people to become interested in the community. I disagree. The very tip top 1% make enough money to live off of. Then you have half THAT percent that make a wealthy living off of this game. What job market would you want to enter where 1% of the people make a living off that money? It's false advertising. But that is beyond the point. I was stating that I am uncomfortable with a bunch of people speculating on the income of progamers based off a bunch of false information or tid-bits they got from a yt video or some dude's coaching rate. I am even further displeased with admins somehow painting me the villain and telling me I am "berating" people or PM'ing me and telling me I am not welcome in the thread (IntotheWOw) really gross tbh or you could just help all the speculators by being a kind person. Let's say someone asked me "How much do interns, residents and accredited registrars earn in Australia? How much do Consultants earn? Whats the pay-grade differences between Public and Private Healthcare?" I can happily give an estimate to all of those questions without exposing my own pay-grade. People like to know because people are curious. Some want to know before they start practicing hardcore to attempt to become a pro-gamer. At the same time, I can understand that it is a social taboo to ask about salaries. I never asked how much my friend's dad was earning as a Engineer in high-end management. But yea - it's not hard to just let speculators know an estimate. Withholding information makes you look like an awesome guy
But there in lies the problem. There is no standard pay / salary for a player. Some players earn more on a team some earn NOTHING but travel/gear. Some players sell themselves out and advertise/represent sponsored gear. Some players coach (most). Some stream (most) and are partnered but at different scales/rates. All this information is personal to the player. Each player exists in a tedious existence where their team salary is under NDA for obvious reasons as well as their stream revenue. Players who do other activities and get paid for it are told not to share...
Beyond ALL that it's just plain rude. There is a reason there isn't a lot of information on progamers salaries aside from the big big dogs in korea making 100's of thousands of dollars (boxer etc).
So when a thread sparks up where it is fun to talk about other people's money sure, I get that. I think it would be fun too. But when people are interpreting things like "well idra charges 300$ that must mean he gets LOTS of coaching!" or where this thread COULD go (and for some already has) where people start speculating on how much I get for casting NASL or Day9 gets per event... nothing good can come of it. I understand the conversation. I truly do. But just watch where this goes.. you think it will be "oh wow, good for him! I hope he is doing awesome." Or do you think it will be "he prob gets nothing cause he sucks LOLOLOL" or "he is overpaid and hasn't won anything recently."
The natural post to follow mine here is to say I am insecure and worried those flames will be directed at me. If anything is true know this: I am more than comfortable taking the brunt of the criticism.
In any case I can see it isn't really interesting to have me telling you guys this is lame and invasive. I will leave you all to it <3
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On May 03 2011 15:57 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 15:53 Duravi wrote:I disagree.
The very tip top 1% make enough money to live off of.
Then you have half THAT percent that make a wealthy living off of this game.
What job market would you want to enter where 1% of the people make a living off that money? It's false advertising. I would argue many sports are the same. What percent of the people who play bball or football in high school are actually able to make a career out of it? That doesn't stop people from trying and teams hyping how much they pay. Correct. But you wouldn't look your mom in the eye while watching an NFL game and go "Well I've decided I know what I want to do for a living! I'm going to be that 1% that makes it to the NFL!" Or maybe you do. But they know you won't make it. By all means chase the dream and go for it. I am obviously not one to say don't. But saying progamers having their earnings made public so kids can make the argument to their parents that they CAN earn a living playing this game all day is not a good argument imo. You really going to stand behind that?
but what if we don't give a crap about becoming a pro-gamer and simply just want to know how much you guys make. we are just curious and want to know. we are not going to use this information to persuade mother and father, or in any other ill manner. we just want to know how much you guys make...so maybe we can donate if you guys give us a low number
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On May 03 2011 16:05 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 15:59 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On May 03 2011 15:46 iNcontroL wrote:On May 03 2011 15:13 Duravi wrote:There is no way to come off as good talking about how much you make playing sc2. And it's just not a good idea. I don't agree with this in some cases. For instance, MKP's parents did not like him playing SC2 so much and discouraged him from it, but once he was able to start making decent money from it and they saw that, they changed their attitude. If people outside the community can see that there is a possibility for individuals to make good money in SC2 it helps to fight against negative attitudes about gaming and encourages more people to become interested in the community. I disagree. The very tip top 1% make enough money to live off of. Then you have half THAT percent that make a wealthy living off of this game. What job market would you want to enter where 1% of the people make a living off that money? It's false advertising. But that is beyond the point. I was stating that I am uncomfortable with a bunch of people speculating on the income of progamers based off a bunch of false information or tid-bits they got from a yt video or some dude's coaching rate. I am even further displeased with admins somehow painting me the villain and telling me I am "berating" people or PM'ing me and telling me I am not welcome in the thread (IntotheWOw) really gross tbh or you could just help all the speculators by being a kind person. Let's say someone asked me "How much do interns, residents and accredited registrars earn in Australia? How much do Consultants earn? Whats the pay-grade differences between Public and Private Healthcare?" I can happily give an estimate to all of those questions without exposing my own pay-grade. People like to know because people are curious. Some want to know before they start practicing hardcore to attempt to become a pro-gamer. At the same time, I can understand that it is a social taboo to ask about salaries. I never asked how much my friend's dad was earning as a Engineer in high-end management. But yea - it's not hard to just let speculators know an estimate. Withholding information makes you look like an awesome guy But there in lies the problem. There is no standard pay / salary for a player. Some players earn more on a team some earn NOTHING but travel/gear. Some players sell themselves out and advertise/represent sponsored gear. Some players coach (most). Some stream (most) and are partnered but at different scales/rates. All this information is personal to the player. Each player exists in a tedious existence where their team salary is under NDA for obvious reasons as well as their stream revenue. Players who do other activities and get paid for it are told not to share... Beyond ALL that it's just plain rude. There is a reason there isn't a lot of information on progamers salaries aside from the big big dogs in korea making 100's of thousands of dollars (boxer etc). So when a thread sparks up where it is fun to talk about other people's money sure, I get that. I think it would be fun too. But when people are interpreting things like "well idra charges 300$ that must mean he gets LOTS of coaching!" or where this thread COULD go (and for some already has) where people start speculating on how much I get for casting NASL or Day9 gets per event... nothing good can come of it. I understand the conversation. I truly do. But just watch where this goes.. you think it will be "oh wow, good for him! I hope he is doing awesome." Or do you think it will be "he prob gets nothing cause he sucks LOLOLOL" or "he is overpaid and hasn't won anything recently." The natural post to follow mine here is to say I am insecure and worried those flames will be directed at me. If anything is true know this: I am more than comfortable taking the brunt of the criticism. In any case I can see it isn't really interesting to have me telling you guys this is lame and invasive. I will leave you all to it <3
Hmmm it's just a taboo which is specific to E-sports then. So I guess the point you're making is that unless things become more transparent in the future for whatever reason, the current status quo is that all of this is confidential and to speculate is fruitless and even more so, rude.
We get you, will stop prodding seeing as you won't budge
EDIT: and Apologies for being a little upfront in the last post. Just let loose from frustration which was unfounded. All good, will let this topic rest in peace.
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On May 03 2011 16:05 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 15:59 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On May 03 2011 15:46 iNcontroL wrote:On May 03 2011 15:13 Duravi wrote:There is no way to come off as good talking about how much you make playing sc2. And it's just not a good idea. I don't agree with this in some cases. For instance, MKP's parents did not like him playing SC2 so much and discouraged him from it, but once he was able to start making decent money from it and they saw that, they changed their attitude. If people outside the community can see that there is a possibility for individuals to make good money in SC2 it helps to fight against negative attitudes about gaming and encourages more people to become interested in the community. I disagree. The very tip top 1% make enough money to live off of. Then you have half THAT percent that make a wealthy living off of this game. What job market would you want to enter where 1% of the people make a living off that money? It's false advertising. But that is beyond the point. I was stating that I am uncomfortable with a bunch of people speculating on the income of progamers based off a bunch of false information or tid-bits they got from a yt video or some dude's coaching rate. I am even further displeased with admins somehow painting me the villain and telling me I am "berating" people or PM'ing me and telling me I am not welcome in the thread (IntotheWOw) really gross tbh or you could just help all the speculators by being a kind person. Let's say someone asked me "How much do interns, residents and accredited registrars earn in Australia? How much do Consultants earn? Whats the pay-grade differences between Public and Private Healthcare?" I can happily give an estimate to all of those questions without exposing my own pay-grade. People like to know because people are curious. Some want to know before they start practicing hardcore to attempt to become a pro-gamer. At the same time, I can understand that it is a social taboo to ask about salaries. I never asked how much my friend's dad was earning as a Engineer in high-end management. But yea - it's not hard to just let speculators know an estimate. Withholding information makes you look like an awesome guy But there in lies the problem. There is no standard pay / salary for a player. Some players earn more on a team some earn NOTHING but travel/gear. Some players sell themselves out and advertise/represent sponsored gear. Some players coach (most). Some stream (most) and are partnered but at different scales/rates. All this information is personal to the player. Each player exists in a tedious existence where their team salary is under NDA for obvious reasons as well as their stream revenue. Players who do other activities and get paid for it are told not to share... Beyond ALL that it's just plain rude. There is a reason there isn't a lot of information on progamers salaries aside from the big big dogs in korea making 100's of thousands of dollars (boxer etc). So when a thread sparks up where it is fun to talk about other people's money sure, I get that. I think it would be fun too. But when people are interpreting things like "well idra charges 300$ that must mean he gets LOTS of coaching!" or where this thread COULD go (and for some already has) where people start speculating on how much I get for casting NASL or Day9 gets per event... nothing good can come of it. I understand the conversation. I truly do. But just watch where this goes.. you think it will be "oh wow, good for him! I hope he is doing awesome." Or do you think it will be "he prob gets nothing cause he sucks LOLOLOL" or "he is overpaid and hasn't won anything recently." The natural post to follow mine here is to say I am insecure and worried those flames will be directed at me. If anything is true know this: I am more than comfortable taking the brunt of the criticism. In any case I can see it isn't really interesting to have me telling you guys this is lame and invasive. I will leave you all to it <3
okay I understand how it might be invasive. you got a point. but instead of giving us specific numbers, cant you give us a ballpark? like a summary? that would be fair. you dont have to list names and stuff.
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Why do you think its rude incontrol? I know that is the general opinion, especially in america, but why is talking about salary so taboo? I have never understood the reasoning behind this.
Perhaps people worry that if it is too low it makes them appear worthless?
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On May 03 2011 16:05 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 15:59 JesusOurSaviour wrote:On May 03 2011 15:46 iNcontroL wrote:On May 03 2011 15:13 Duravi wrote:There is no way to come off as good talking about how much you make playing sc2. And it's just not a good idea. I don't agree with this in some cases. For instance, MKP's parents did not like him playing SC2 so much and discouraged him from it, but once he was able to start making decent money from it and they saw that, they changed their attitude. If people outside the community can see that there is a possibility for individuals to make good money in SC2 it helps to fight against negative attitudes about gaming and encourages more people to become interested in the community. I disagree. The very tip top 1% make enough money to live off of. Then you have half THAT percent that make a wealthy living off of this game. What job market would you want to enter where 1% of the people make a living off that money? It's false advertising. But that is beyond the point. I was stating that I am uncomfortable with a bunch of people speculating on the income of progamers based off a bunch of false information or tid-bits they got from a yt video or some dude's coaching rate. I am even further displeased with admins somehow painting me the villain and telling me I am "berating" people or PM'ing me and telling me I am not welcome in the thread (IntotheWOw) really gross tbh or you could just help all the speculators by being a kind person. Let's say someone asked me "How much do interns, residents and accredited registrars earn in Australia? How much do Consultants earn? Whats the pay-grade differences between Public and Private Healthcare?" I can happily give an estimate to all of those questions without exposing my own pay-grade. People like to know because people are curious. Some want to know before they start practicing hardcore to attempt to become a pro-gamer. At the same time, I can understand that it is a social taboo to ask about salaries. I never asked how much my friend's dad was earning as a Engineer in high-end management. But yea - it's not hard to just let speculators know an estimate. Withholding information makes you look like an awesome guy But there in lies the problem. There is no standard pay / salary for a player. Some players earn more on a team some earn NOTHING but travel/gear. Some players sell themselves out and advertise/represent sponsored gear. Some players coach (most). Some stream (most) and are partnered but at different scales/rates. All this information is personal to the player. Each player exists in a tedious existence where their team salary is under NDA for obvious reasons as well as their stream revenue. Players who do other activities and get paid for it are told not to share... Beyond ALL that it's just plain rude. There is a reason there isn't a lot of information on progamers salaries aside from the big big dogs in korea making 100's of thousands of dollars (boxer etc). So when a thread sparks up where it is fun to talk about other people's money sure, I get that. I think it would be fun too. But when people are interpreting things like "well idra charges 300$ that must mean he gets LOTS of coaching!" or where this thread COULD go (and for some already has) where people start speculating on how much I get for casting NASL or Day9 gets per event... nothing good can come of it. I understand the conversation. I truly do. But just watch where this goes.. you think it will be "oh wow, good for him! I hope he is doing awesome." Or do you think it will be "he prob gets nothing cause he sucks LOLOLOL" or "he is overpaid and hasn't won anything recently." The natural post to follow mine here is to say I am insecure and worried those flames will be directed at me. If anything is true know this: I am more than comfortable taking the brunt of the criticism. In any case I can see it isn't really interesting to have me telling you guys this is lame and invasive. I will leave you all to it <3
Good for you Geoff, calling it like you see it.
Admittedly I was slightly uncomfortable with the topic from the get go, but you've summed things up pretty well. Explaining roughly how much one stands to make is one thing, trying to pry into people's finances is another, and can only be harmful to those players and the community as a whole.
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Most people don't like to tell other people how much they make. That is a social norm. Most of the time people do not want to know how much someone makes just for "data" its for criticisms. Sure you would say "I am not coming from there" but this is a public forum and some people will. It is honestly just better to drop it OR don't make crazy leaps based off coaching. etc. like incontrol pointed out. Asking about how much someone makes is akin to asking women how much they weigh, how old they are, or WORSE speculating about it.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On May 03 2011 16:15 samuraibael wrote:
Why do you think its rude incontrol? I know that is the general opinion, especially in america, but why is talking about salary so taboo? I have never understood the reasoning behind this.
Perhaps people worry that if it is too low it makes them appear worthless?
In a way, it's a very private matter. Money is something intensely sought after in society and it's related to image, greed, success, in life social status. For some reason it's on the same level of taboo as whether or not you've visited prostitutes in the past year, or information on whether you've slept with the girl your best mate has married. We live in a broken society - there are all kinds of secrets for various reasons.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On May 03 2011 16:17 yawnoC wrote:
Most people don't like to tell other people how much they make. That is a social norm. Most of the time people do not want to know how much someone makes just for "data" its for criticisms. Sure you would say "I am not coming from there" but this is a public forum and some people will. It is honestly just better to drop it OR don't make crazy leaps based off coaching. etc. like incontrol pointed out. Asking about how much someone makes is akin to asking women how much they weigh, how old they are, or WORSE speculating about it.
Yes your example is a lot better than mine re: sexual habits
: ) Nice analogy
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On May 03 2011 15:42 FawkingGoomba wrote:
Aside from salaried players like Idra, FXO, or very top europeans, I doubt anyone is making more than your typical 9-5 job. To say that people are making more than 100k/year is ridiculous.
MC and NesTea have made 100k+ already, from price moeny alone and it hasn't even been a whole year. MVP will probably join them soon along with maybe MarineKing and FruitDealer.
It wouldn't even be impossible for MC to make 200k in the first year of SC2.
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On May 03 2011 16:05 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 15:57 iNcontroL wrote:On May 03 2011 15:53 Duravi wrote:I disagree.
The very tip top 1% make enough money to live off of.
Then you have half THAT percent that make a wealthy living off of this game.
What job market would you want to enter where 1% of the people make a living off that money? It's false advertising. I would argue many sports are the same. What percent of the people who play bball or football in high school are actually able to make a career out of it? That doesn't stop people from trying and teams hyping how much they pay. Correct. But you wouldn't look your mom in the eye while watching an NFL game and go "Well I've decided I know what I want to do for a living! I'm going to be that 1% that makes it to the NFL!" Or maybe you do. But they know you won't make it. By all means chase the dream and go for it. I am obviously not one to say don't. But saying progamers having their earnings made public so kids can make the argument to their parents that they CAN earn a living playing this game all day is not a good argument imo. You really going to stand behind that? but what if we don't give a crap about becoming a pro-gamer and simply just want to know how much you guys make. we are just curious and want to know. we are not going to use this information to persuade mother and father, or in any other ill manner. we just want to know how much you guys make...so maybe we can donate if you guys give us a low number
Then read the posts in this thread. Salary information is supposed to be kept private. And not only that it should be a no-brainer to keep it private save the efforts of ways to keep it enforced because surely enough someone will use it as a dick measuring tool.
the tl;dr version you want has already been said in this thread. A combination of salary, stream, coaching, winnings(cut), and/or endorsement/sponsors.
You're not going to get somebody to formulate a response to giving you their earnings from every source totaled up all nice and neat for you.
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On May 03 2011 15:52 shadymmj wrote:
Other than in Korea going pro is one of the worst things you can ever do in your life - along with those hardcore master league players with over 5k games played and still nothing to show for it...I swear they play for at least 5 hours a day and spend an additional 2 hours or so reviewing and finding strategies.
Look at Greg Fields, the biggest American superstar...18k in winnings over a year (about), maybe if you included a nice salary package of 25k and perhaps fringe coaching/donations/whatever of 2k (because seriously who pays couple hundred bucks for lessons), that comes up to 45k per year, that's about the average American GDP/capita. Very optimistic calculations.
Except that he probably won't be able to do this as a long-term career, as there's probably a burnout around age 32~ like most athletes suffer - an age when most counterparts are climbing the corporate ladder.
The bottom line is that youth-dependent superstars need to be making at least about 100k a year
in their prime to insure their future. I hear Greg is pretty smart, though, so he can at least complete some kind of degree in the future and start up an ordinary career. In that sense his situation is actually pretty alright, not due to e-sports, but because of his academic ability.
Now, how about those that aren't able to attend college?
I'd say close to 100% of the players who makes it in competitive gaming are smart enough to get a degree... we just choose not to
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On May 03 2011 16:15 samuraibael wrote:
Why do you think its rude incontrol? I know that is the general opinion, especially in america, but why is talking about salary so taboo? I have never understood the reasoning behind this.
Perhaps people worry that if it is too low it makes them appear worthless?
to be honest, I don't know why it is taboo. but if someone asked for mine, they'll come across as rude....wierd...just is man. its a personal thing, that other people don't have business or reason to know
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Ryan Bingham: You know why kids love athletes?
Bob: Because they screw lingerie models.
Ryan Bingham: No, that's why we love athletes. Kids love them because they follow their dreams.
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On May 03 2011 15:57 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 15:53 Duravi wrote:I disagree.
The very tip top 1% make enough money to live off of.
Then you have half THAT percent that make a wealthy living off of this game.
What job market would you want to enter where 1% of the people make a living off that money? It's false advertising. I would argue many sports are the same. What percent of the people who play bball or football in high school are actually able to make a career out of it? That doesn't stop people from trying and teams hyping how much they pay. Correct. But you wouldn't look your mom in the eye while watching an NFL game and go "Well I've decided I know what I want to do for a living! I'm going to be that 1% that makes it to the NFL!" Or maybe you do. But they know you won't make it. By all means chase the dream and go for it. I am obviously not one to say don't. But saying progamers having their earnings made public so kids can make the argument to their parents that they CAN earn a living playing this game all day is not a good argument imo. You really going to stand behind that?
Well I honestly don't see anything wrong with that, if someone is going to aim for the top, he should at least kind of know what the rewards will be, no need to put the exact numbers, just something realistic someone can expect from going pro (not #1 in the world pro, more like top 50)
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On May 03 2011 08:16 Holcan wrote:
good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less.
What's your evidence? Or just reasoning even? Don't just pull numbers off your ass and expect people to believe
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Netherlands45349 Posts
I thought becoming a progamer is extremly volatile outside of Korea, therefore there is no ballpark nor a guestimate of what you can make. There are many known players who probably don't make even nearly as much as others. Seeing as there is no overestablished E-sport assosiation(Kespa like) there is no regulation or anything like that, I think the vast majority of the players have no salary. On top of this, is there a thing as a progamer license outside of Korea?Because if there is not, then what cuts the pro from the amateur?I know that in Korea you can be the best Bnet player there is, if you don't have a progamer license, you are not a pro, just a very good amateur.
The border between progamer and amateur doesn't seem clear to me, and therefore it is hard to judge how much a progamer actually makes. As Incontrol stated some only get travel and gear, this while others make much more money appearently.
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just something realistic someone can expect from going pro (not #1 in the world pro, more like top 50)
That is what I'm arguing, i see no reason for teams not to release something like an average salary across their active players. If asked a team manager, say Scoots, "will you tell me the average pay your players make, and if not why will you not release that number?" I fear I would get no response.
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On May 03 2011 16:22 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 15:52 shadymmj wrote:
Other than in Korea going pro is one of the worst things you can ever do in your life - along with those hardcore master league players with over 5k games played and still nothing to show for it...I swear they play for at least 5 hours a day and spend an additional 2 hours or so reviewing and finding strategies.
Look at Greg Fields, the biggest American superstar...18k in winnings over a year (about), maybe if you included a nice salary package of 25k and perhaps fringe coaching/donations/whatever of 2k (because seriously who pays couple hundred bucks for lessons), that comes up to 45k per year, that's about the average American GDP/capita. Very optimistic calculations.
Except that he probably won't be able to do this as a long-term career, as there's probably a burnout around age 32~ like most athletes suffer - an age when most counterparts are climbing the corporate ladder.
The bottom line is that youth-dependent superstars need to be making at least about 100k a year
in their prime to insure their future. I hear Greg is pretty smart, though, so he can at least complete some kind of degree in the future and start up an ordinary career. In that sense his situation is actually pretty alright, not due to e-sports, but because of his academic ability.
Now, how about those that aren't able to attend college?
I'd say close to 100% of the players who makes it in competitive gaming are smart enough to get a degree... we just choose not to
one of the things we learn at university (and is common sense really) is not to make an assertion without statistical evidence backing it up.
note that "100%" is pretty much a generalisation. (how close?)
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On May 03 2011 15:02 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:53 iNcontroL wrote:On May 03 2011 13:40 Chill wrote:On May 03 2011 12:55 Joementum wrote:On May 03 2011 12:02 iNcontroL wrote:
fun thread but so far this has been a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea judging/speculating on the salaries of players based on what Destiny said in an interview and what IdrA charges for coaching.
btw he charges that much not because he is in that high of demand but because he doesn't want to coach.. unless someone pays him tremendously. Why not shed some light on it then instead of saying "LOL noobs speculating?" Otherwise, just let us speculate. There's only one player we know of and it's Destiny since he's come out and said how much he makes. Agreed. There is no way to come off as good talking about how much you make playing sc2. And it's just not a good idea. I agree. So berating the curious doesn't add anything.
I sincerely disagree. Why not talk about it? I am pretty sure that people who are thinking about going pro have no idea what kind of salary that can be expected, or what kind of work that pays most, which leads to less new players taking the "risk" to go pro. And it is also hard for a new player to know if his contract is fair or not.
Openness is always better than "not talk about that" in my opinion. It would be better for the pro players to know what other players earn and from what. It would benefit the growth of the "Starcraft market" in the long perspective and make it a more competitive environment.
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On May 03 2011 16:37 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 16:22 ROOTFayth wrote:On May 03 2011 15:52 shadymmj wrote:
Other than in Korea going pro is one of the worst things you can ever do in your life - along with those hardcore master league players with over 5k games played and still nothing to show for it...I swear they play for at least 5 hours a day and spend an additional 2 hours or so reviewing and finding strategies.
Look at Greg Fields, the biggest American superstar...18k in winnings over a year (about), maybe if you included a nice salary package of 25k and perhaps fringe coaching/donations/whatever of 2k (because seriously who pays couple hundred bucks for lessons), that comes up to 45k per year, that's about the average American GDP/capita. Very optimistic calculations.
Except that he probably won't be able to do this as a long-term career, as there's probably a burnout around age 32~ like most athletes suffer - an age when most counterparts are climbing the corporate ladder.
The bottom line is that youth-dependent superstars need to be making at least about 100k a year
in their prime to insure their future. I hear Greg is pretty smart, though, so he can at least complete some kind of degree in the future and start up an ordinary career. In that sense his situation is actually pretty alright, not due to e-sports, but because of his academic ability.
Now, how about those that aren't able to attend college?
I'd say close to 100% of the players who makes it in competitive gaming are smart enough to get a degree... we just choose not to one of the things we learn at university (and is common sense really) is not to make an assertion without statistical evidence backing it up. note that "100%" is pretty much a generalisation. (how close?)
I'd assert that it is pretty dang close to 100%, progamers are some of the most hardworking people around, and if I've learned anything from the two times I've failed out of college, its that a degree is almost completely about hard work (there are many many people who were not as bright as me that were much much more successful... then again that they knew enough to try their hardest might prove that they're smarter than me ).
On topic, if as many progamers have decided to pursue gaming rather than a conventional career as already have, it must pay enough to be worthwhile. Possibly not as much as a degree require field does ($60k+) but enough that its worth trading salary to do what you love for a living, and shouldn't that be enough?
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On May 03 2011 16:05 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 15:57 iNcontroL wrote:On May 03 2011 15:53 Duravi wrote:I disagree.
The very tip top 1% make enough money to live off of.
Then you have half THAT percent that make a wealthy living off of this game.
What job market would you want to enter where 1% of the people make a living off that money? It's false advertising. I would argue many sports are the same. What percent of the people who play bball or football in high school are actually able to make a career out of it? That doesn't stop people from trying and teams hyping how much they pay. Correct. But you wouldn't look your mom in the eye while watching an NFL game and go "Well I've decided I know what I want to do for a living! I'm going to be that 1% that makes it to the NFL!" Or maybe you do. But they know you won't make it. By all means chase the dream and go for it. I am obviously not one to say don't. But saying progamers having their earnings made public so kids can make the argument to their parents that they CAN earn a living playing this game all day is not a good argument imo. You really going to stand behind that? but what if we don't give a crap about becoming a pro-gamer and simply just want to know how much you guys make. we are just curious and want to know. we are not going to use this information to persuade mother and father, or in any other ill manner. we just want to know how much you guys make...so maybe we can donate if you guys give us a low number
Maybe they do not want to for personal reasons and you should shut the fuck up.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Maybe this question is easier to answer for the pros: can you estimate how many players outside Korea are professional gamers in the sense that they are able to support themselves off of salary, prize money, coaching, streaming, commentating, etc., without having a day job?
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I think people curious about how much streaming makes is okay. Sheth is quoted saying on his stream in response to the question: "Nothing yet but I hope to make more". So there is that. I personally make $75,000.00 a year. + Show Spoiler +Though I am a Freight Train conductor.
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On May 03 2011 16:51 DONTPANIC wrote:I think people curious about how much streaming makes is okay. Sheth is quoted saying on his stream in response to the question: "Nothing yet but I hope to make more". So there is that. I personally make $75,000.00 a year. + Show Spoiler +Though I am a Freight Train conductor.
Viva Las Vegas? Who cares.
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On May 03 2011 16:26 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 08:16 Holcan wrote:
good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less. What's your evidence? Or just reasoning even? Don't just pull numbers off your ass and expect people to believe
a year of managing a sponorship seeking sc2 team
2 years of managing a sponsor seeking wc3 team
5 years of administrative work on the semi professional level in wc3, so I was in constant contact with players like Empire.Kas, Thorzain, etc.
I dont care if you believe me or not, but my numbers are the closest you are going to get in this thread.
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On May 03 2011 16:46 Etra wrote:
Maybe they do not want to for personal reasons and you should shut the fuck up.
And what personal reason can possibly preclude their wish to release said information? It's either because they feel they make too much (same reason why some rich people choose to keep a low-profile), or they are embarrassed of what they make.
If you're just Mr. Average Joe in Acme corporation I'm pretty sure you'd be able to give some sort of figure that, while not being explicit, gives a general idea of the expected wages. Something like 3.5 to 4 grand a month, you know, while being unremarkable, is quite acceptable.
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On May 03 2011 16:58 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 16:46 Etra wrote:
Maybe they do not want to for personal reasons and you should shut the fuck up. And what personal reason can possibly preclude their wish to release said information? It's either because they feel they make too much (same reason why some rich people choose to keep a low-profile), or they are embarrassed of what they make. If you're just Mr. Average Joe in Acme corporation I'm pretty sure you'd be able to give some sort of figure that, while not being explicit, gives a general idea of the expected wages. Something like 3.5 to 4 grand a month, you know, while being unremarkable, is quite acceptable.
Well another reason could be that their team wants them to keep their salary a secret. It is good for the teams if the players don´t know how much an equally skilled player gets on another team, the prices (salary) go down this way. And since the teams are the backbone to the pro player none wants to be the first to stab them in the back and possibly be "blacklisted" from the teams in Sc2.
If that is the case it is pretty sad since the players lose on this agreement and some teams can continue to pay low wages compared to other teams with equally skilled players. Since e-sport is so new and volatile as a market I think pros are afraid of challenging the paying teams. In the long run this is not durable though. The wages will be made public, it is only a matter of time.
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On May 03 2011 16:20 Mise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 15:42 FawkingGoomba wrote:
Aside from salaried players like Idra, FXO, or very top europeans, I doubt anyone is making more than your typical 9-5 job. To say that people are making more than 100k/year is ridiculous. MC and NesTea have made 100k+ already, from price moeny alone and it hasn't even been a whole year. MVP will probably join them soon along with maybe MarineKing and FruitDealer. It wouldn't even be impossible for MC to make 200k in the first year of SC2.
Sorry, I meant outside of Korea. Assumed we were only talking about outside of that, seeing as salaries of some BW pros are known.
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On May 03 2011 16:54 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 16:26 5unrise wrote:On May 03 2011 08:16 Holcan wrote:
good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less. What's your evidence? Or just reasoning even? Don't just pull numbers off your ass and expect people to believe a year of managing a sponorship seeking sc2 team 2 years of managing a sponsor seeking wc3 team 5 years of administrative work on the semi professional level in wc3, so I was in constant contact with players like Empire.Kas, Thorzain, etc. I dont care if you believe me or not, but my numbers are the closest you are going to get in this thread.
'sponsorship seeking'
the people who actually found sponsors might have a better idea of what kind of money is there.
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On May 03 2011 17:18 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 16:54 Holcan wrote:On May 03 2011 16:26 5unrise wrote:On May 03 2011 08:16 Holcan wrote:
good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less. What's your evidence? Or just reasoning even? Don't just pull numbers off your ass and expect people to believe a year of managing a sponorship seeking sc2 team 2 years of managing a sponsor seeking wc3 team 5 years of administrative work on the semi professional level in wc3, so I was in constant contact with players like Empire.Kas, Thorzain, etc. I dont care if you believe me or not, but my numbers are the closest you are going to get in this thread. 'sponsorship seeking' the people who actually found sponsors might have a better idea of what kind of money is there.
People are constantly seeking sponsorships, even if they already have support, whats your point?
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this is a very sensitive topic and I would advise every progamer to keep their salaries for themselves. People tend to be jealous or think "I can do this too - play sc2 all day and get paid for it, lulz". I follwed the wc3 scene for many years and when the salaries of the topplayers became public shit got insane.
MYM (back then having a very potent investor behind them) started to pay their players extremly high salaries and if other Clans wanted to keep their keyplayers they also had to pay very well. BUT the pricepool of leagues and tournaments did not rise and I doubt the sponsors suddely paid twice the cash. Another negative aspect were the expactations from midlevel players. If in one year they played for hardware support and maybe a bonus if achieved something, in the other year they also wanted to get paid and "please not under 300/month". Some smaller/unexperienced Clans made those deals with players that did well for one month or so. In the end it came how it had to come. Clans could not pay their players any more or had to close their doors completly.
Whats my point? Don`t blow up a Bubble. If you are a player who is confident in his skill/determination go ahead and train. If you do well Clans will contact you and at some point you will be offered a contract. This is the point were you can start thinking about money but not before.
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On May 03 2011 17:40 zul wrote:
Another negative aspect were the expactations from midlevel players. If in one year they played for hardware support and maybe a bonus if achieved something, in the other year they also wanted to get paid and "please not under 300/month".
You can't eat steelseries keyboards, so yes, I'd say that is a completely fair request.
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On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works.
Please dont make stuff up, we really dont appreciate that
They do get money through views from ads. Idra said so on his stream.
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One thing to always keep in mind is that it's not always about money. I bet a lot of players don't care about making the best dollar/hour when investing time into a video game. They do it because they love the competition. Everyone does something in their lives that doesn't make money, right?
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I read quite a lot of the posts right now and I think, besides of all that speculation, people are missing two important points.
1) Viewer count of a stream or video doesn't mean ad viewer count. It depends on the region and the browser (features/security).
From the TL time zone voting, we know there are about 45% with American time zones on this site. This doesn't mean they all get ads or they are the same peole that watch the streams. But still it's at least an indicator that there might be only about 50% of the viewers that actually get ads.
And then there is the web browser. These days, browser addons like ad blockers, cross site scripting control and cross request policy control gets more and more popular due to security and privacy reasons.
The side effect of this is, that most advertisers use these mechanics for their ads, that are also used for abusing exploits and user tracking. More browser security and privacy also means the advertisers won't get a shot, as they are also (ab)using these mechanics.
2) It's not good just to watch or click ads because you think you do a favour to the advertisers.
They don't want people to watch or click their ads. They want people to buy their products.
The investment in ads has to pay off by their sold products. Not by the viewers or clicks somewhere.
So if you view and click ads but won't buy the product, that's a sign that advertisement doesn't work that way and they have to change it. Maybe put ads somewhere else, as stream viewers just watch or click but never buy.
Viewing and clicking but not buying the product breaks the system. It reduces the value of ads for the company and therefore they will likely reduce their spending on ads. As a result there will be less revenue for ad placement.
Not watching ads at all will keep that system and the value of ads as it is and additionally signal the advertisers, that there are people that don't want ads (for different reasons). And they have to think about further measures to get their products sold.(Like maybe don't lock your bootloader of the android device you want to sell and that's what customers are telling you since month and still you do it and still you're disappointed with the sales and so on)
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Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
User was warned for this post
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Probably like anything involving art and sport only the tippy top make the cash. How many awesome college athletes didn't make pro? Or got Pro but were on some minor league team paying them peanuts? I know a few being a halfway decent athlete myself in HS and even had a scholarship lined up but lets get real I wouldn't be able to study (accounting) thoroughly enough which has almost guaranteed decent salary if I get A's or you can go MBA route after and work for banks and make huge cash. Or one can become a doctor pharmacist or nurse where I don't know any unemployed doctors and make large guaranteed cash. No, they do gaming because they like it and some get lucky with a salaried team and sponsorship but it's exception rather than rule. I personally don't like those odds. Plus you have to wonder how much you'd really enjoy the game if it became work. As in 10 hrs a day arduous drilling.... I can't answer that but I'm sure some players lose the love.
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That is price winnings only. Not salary or sponsorships
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No one mentioned stuff like income taxes they have to pay from the money they earn? I think making money from gaming sounds better than it is. It's the same with online poker. 50 k a year sounds good for gaming/poker/etc but it's a lot less than the actual 50 k. You have to pay a sh*tload on taxes and you have to save up money for if you're old and stuff. I think a 'normal' job is always better or you have to be REALY good.
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Taxes are not bad when when you're self employed. Everything you do is a deduction almost which reduces your basis. e.g. I went to dinner to discuss gaming with x. Keep a journal for audit - all IRS can do is deny.
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On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
I guess it's just like any other job or career in entertainment. Many people's dreams are to become an actor or dancer or singer where their career could be cut short at any moment but they do it because it is what they love.
When you are passionate about SC2, playing for 12 hours a day, everyday isn't as bad as you think.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
They do it because they like it. Is that really so hard for you to understand? Why do you care if they don't live a 'normal' life? Most hobbies are a waste of time, yet people still participate in whatever the hell they want.
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I really don't anderstand why IdrA does not want to coach...
Because he could earn 150$/hour, and in my opinion it's much more than the potential money from tournaments. And it's also much more safe.
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300k/Year is a lot of money - The average person makes 40k/year. If you made 300k in one year playing a game - who cares if you spent the year not furthering your career. 300k/40k = 7.5 years of working a regular job.
Not that I imagine SC2 Pro gamers make that kind of money - but if you did and you made that money for 3-5 years , you'd be loaded and probably would never have to work for the rest of your life (if you were smart)
Also, not that I agree that becoming an SC2 pro gamer is a wise career choice - but if you're naturally good at the game it doesn't hurt to try and profit from your hobby. I think people seem to overlook the fact that most people are never going to be lawyers/doctors/CEOs of companies/etc. In fact, I doubt that 1% of the population of SC2 gamers will ever make upwards of 100k/year. These jobs are rare and most people are either born into them , work their asses off for half of their lives for them and/or just get extremely lucky. The rest of us work menial jobs and pray that we don't get fired/laid off while we struggle to pay our bills. Stop talking like you're missing out on becoming a doctor when you play starcraft 2. Anybody that has the ambition to succeed on that level is not going to be held back by a video game, and they're certainly not reading this.
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On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand .... having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
Everything that you said is totally correct. But you have to keep in mind that a lot of player dream is to be a pro-gamer because they have a passion. They love video games and everybody wants to make a living of their passion. And you talk about the amount of money that they win etc, but remember that there is sooooo many athletes in the world that aren't paid that much but they keep doing it because they love it.
In my opinion, the thing that everybody should do is finish high school (I'm not sure if it's the correct term because I'm from Switzerland and I don't really know the exact word) so that at the end of their "career" they can transition to something else without being force to work in a supermarket the rest of their life.
The thing that need to change is the image that most of the people have of "e-sport", "video games" and that stuff. But it's so hard to change that, and to be honest in some aspect I understand their point of view. Right now there is so much addicted people, without any friends, dirty fat kids, that people tend to generalize.
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On May 03 2011 19:25 Leavzou wrote:
I really don't anderstand why IdrA does not want to coach...
Because he could earn 150$/hour, and in my opinion it's much more than the potential money from tournaments. And it's also much more safe.
There's an old saying going 'Those who can't do, teach.'
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1% here won't make over 100K? Over 1% of Americans are millionaires and I'd say SC2 players are more intelligent than norm. 100K over 20% of Americans make. Basically you're way off.
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On May 03 2011 18:05 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 17:40 zul wrote:
Another negative aspect were the expactations from midlevel players. If in one year they played for hardware support and maybe a bonus if achieved something, in the other year they also wanted to get paid and "please not under 300/month". You can't eat steelseries keyboards, so yes, I'd say that is a completely fair request.
Has nothing to do with that.. You know as well as i do that everybody would be thrilled to get paid for being a good gamer. But i totally agree with zul! Don't destroy of bubble that will only create a lot of mess in the community.
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On May 03 2011 19:50 tdt wrote:
1% here won't make over 100K? Over 1% of Americans are millionaires and I'd say SC2 players are more intelligent than norm. 100K over 20% of Americans make. Basically you're way off.
Well, maybe 1% was a little drastic(maybe 5% at most), but I certainly doubt that 20% of Americans make over 100k a year. (Maybe 20% of households on combined incomes).
100k/year is a LOT of money and very few professions actually pay that amount.
The real world isn't like that. Maybe if you live in a rich neighborhood it might seem this way but the reality is that most people are working to make a select few very rich, and these select few do not get rich paying people 100k/year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States
According to wikipedia, roughly 16% of households make over 100k/year with 2 earners.
http://www.mybudget360.com/how-much-does-the-average-american-make-breaking-down-the-us-household-income-numbers/
This goes further basically breaking down the fact that 3% of households bring in 200k+/year. So basically your 20% is actually 3% - which is much closer to my original statement.
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Guys like iNcontroL make alot of money i'd imagine. You could see his coaching schedule one time on stream and he had guys that booked him for over 600$ and he had ALOT of students at that time(booked for 2 whole months or something like that).
And does it really matter how much you can make? If you play for fun and become fucking good you can go for it like tyler said on state of the game and then you can make money with your hobby.
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On May 03 2011 20:18 BattRoll wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 19:50 tdt wrote:
1% here won't make over 100K? Over 1% of Americans are millionaires and I'd say SC2 players are more intelligent than norm. 100K over 20% of Americans make. Basically you're way off. Well, maybe 1% was a little drastic(maybe 5% at most), but I certainly doubt that 20% of Americans make over 100k a year. (Maybe 20% of households on combined incomes). 100k/year is a LOT of money and very few professions actually pay that amount.
Yeah household income is way stat is always reported, individual, ~7% make above 100K. But more importantly around 100% do who have professional degrees which is what the poster was comparing gaming to. Not grocery baggers hair stylists construction workers or other poorly educated & low barriers to entry career paths.
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I think that it's wrong to assume that in order to be a pro SC2 player you need to play 12 hours a day. I think that you could play 3-4 hours a day consistently and be a pro gamer. It really depends on how gifted you are. The same logic applies to sports. Do you think Shaquille Oneal practices as much as a guy like Kobe Bryant in the NBA? Nope, Shaq doesn't even need to practice. He shows up to a game 50lbs overweight and it doesn't matter. Do you think most MLB pitchers practice all day? Nope, they rest their arms. I think SC2 pro gamers sit somewhere in between these analogies. Some players need to practice ungodly hours, and others it hurts them.
In either event, I think that anybody trying to tell another person what's right or wrong for them to do with their time has some malice attached to it.
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The few speculative earnings we are seeing look extremely healthy for a budding e-sport. Starcraft 2 has yet to reach its peak and already people are making livable salaries off it. If you are willing and able to invest an 8-hour workday to make a living off your hobby, things look very bright for the future.
If you have valuable information to add or an interesting take on the issue, please contribute.
"LOL people in this thread don't know what they are talking about." Is NOT contributing to the thread.
There is no reason pro players shouldn't at least give us a hint of their income. It's valuable information for people considering going into e-sports, and what are they exactly risking by giving a rough estimate of their earnings?
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
Well said sir! This man has his wisdom. Heed this man's words. Pro-gaming is not all its luster.
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On May 03 2011 21:17 pHelix Equilibria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it? Well said sir! This man has his wisdom. Heed this man's words. Pro-gaming is not all its luster.
The idea isn't that you'll deck yourself out with bling and gold-diggers, rather that you can sustain your life & lifestyle by doing what you love doing.
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On May 03 2011 21:17 pHelix Equilibria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it? Well said sir! This man has his wisdom. Heed this man's words. Pro-gaming is not all its luster.
Meh. Of course doing 12 hours everyday of something you love can be tiring and boring.
But that's better than doing 12 hours of everyday of something you don't even love in the first
place.
No one is saying pro gaming is a better career path money wise than the standard way of getting a degree - go for standard day jobs at this point of time. Most progamers know and realise that.
Day9 probably will still earn more if he utilise his degree and find a corporate job unless something drastic happens to esports. But you guess which one is more fulfilling for him and which career path will he take? Even if esports path give him less than half of normal job, i bet he'll still take the esport path.
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Alot of the people spouting random numbers in this thread with no evidence......... why :O? Contracts for progaming teams state that they can't say whats in the contract so as far as finding out how much they get salaried thats a hard task unless you know the players personally and in most cases its probable that the salary they get isn't their main source of income from sc2 related shizzam
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On May 03 2011 21:22 rbx270j wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 21:17 pHelix Equilibria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it? Well said sir! This man has his wisdom. Heed this man's words. Pro-gaming is not all its luster. The idea isn't that you'll deck yourself out with bling and gold-diggers, rather that you can sustain your life & lifestyle by doing what you love doing.
Oh yeah, for how long? A good pro career lasts over a gamer's working life of 30-40 years? The love what you are doing is such BS. So doctors must despise saving lives. I bet that video games are not as fun if your livelihood depends on it.
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On May 03 2011 08:36 rickybobby wrote:
there were a bunch of personal sponsorship announcments before MLG dallas like TLO and Kiwikaki and root getting sponsors like dr pepper and aw root beer and such, those probably get the players a significant amount of money
I'm pretty sure that Root getting A&W root beer as a sponsor was an April Fool's joke.
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On May 03 2011 21:17 pHelix Equilibria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it? Well said sir! This man has his wisdom. Heed this man's words. Pro-gaming is not all its luster.
Very well said by tyCe and i agree on all points, online gamers tend to be very fickle and easily the most inconsistent fans out there.
Not to mention the fact that most progamers are young teens or early 20 somethings ie: young people, many of whom are spending abnormal amount of time just focusing on 1 thing, a videogame. I cant speak for anyone but if i turned 40 and knew that i spent 5-10 best years of my life on a videogame trying to please a very fickle crowd who enjoy complaining more than anything else i would be pretty bitter.
Life is not about money, but when it is all said and done, you wake up and you have very little but memories to show for, i doubt many employers will be impressed that you spent 10 years being a "progamer", regardless of how much skill and dedication it takes, the outside world simply does not see it that way.
I appriciate that they provide us with alot of entertainment and i am not trying to dog on them, i like to pretend that they will all end up being very successfull and satisfied later on in life.
Watch Chasing Ghosts: Beyond the Arcade, it is a documentary about progamers from the early 1980's who played arcade games, many of them appeared on national TV shows, some got sponsorships and advertised various things such as gamepads and games, others even had fat contracts etc. The documentary then shows us where they are now and pretty much all of them seem to lead pretty lousy lives, one guy sleeps on the carpet, one is still living with his parents and collects pornography and many of them meet up at Sunspot Arcade to reminisce of old times and when they truly mattered. If anything will put a damper on "esports" this movie will.
The little money they made ran out, they had nothing to fall back on, they were addicted to the crowds giving them respect and simply could never move on from their progamer lifestyle. The only lesson i was able to extract from this was if you cant let go of the past and the glory days you will be stuck trying to replicate them because they had nothing else.
Those few who had success seemed to be able to let go and put the same efforts into something else as they did in gaming.
Id like to believe that nobody will end up that way in the SC2 community, but you cant rule out the possiblity, because there are so many smart and dedicated people. They train for longer hours than almost anyone, because of the nature of sports, training 10 hours a day is simply not plausible and would actually make you worse than better.
I cant tell them what to do, but i just hope many of them are able to transition out of it and be proud about it one day and not have any regrets.
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On May 03 2011 21:33 pHelix Equilibria wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 21:22 rbx270j wrote:On May 03 2011 21:17 pHelix Equilibria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it? Well said sir! This man has his wisdom. Heed this man's words. Pro-gaming is not all its luster. The idea isn't that you'll deck yourself out with bling and gold-diggers, rather that you can sustain your life & lifestyle by doing what you love doing. Oh yeah, for how long? A good pro career lasts over a gamer's working life of 30-40 years? The love what you are doing is such BS. So doctors must despise saving lives. I bet that video games are not as fun if your livelihood depends on it.
Most progamers I know already have their degree. It's their life anyway, let them enjoy doing what they enjoy doing and keep your business to yourself.
I don't see the point of all the speculation in this thread. The amount of money progamers make varies by so much from person to person. There are so many factors
-How much do they stream/how often?
-How much do they charge to coach?
-How many lessons do they do per day?
-Do they win turnys?
-Do they get a salary?
etc...etc...
It's going to vary so much from person to person, this is really not worth discussing.
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On May 03 2011 21:40 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 21:33 pHelix Equilibria wrote:On May 03 2011 21:22 rbx270j wrote:On May 03 2011 21:17 pHelix Equilibria wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it? Well said sir! This man has his wisdom. Heed this man's words. Pro-gaming is not all its luster. The idea isn't that you'll deck yourself out with bling and gold-diggers, rather that you can sustain your life & lifestyle by doing what you love doing. Oh yeah, for how long? A good pro career lasts over a gamer's working life of 30-40 years? The love what you are doing is such BS. So doctors must despise saving lives. I bet that video games are not as fun if your livelihood depends on it. Most progamers I know already have their degree. It's their life anyway, let them enjoy doing what they enjoy doing and keep your business to yourself. I don't see the point of all the speculation in this thread. The amount of money progamers make varies by so much from person to person. There are so many factors -How much do they stream/how often? -How much do they charge to coach? -How many lessons do they do per day? -Do they win turnys? -Do they get a salary? etc...etc... It's going to vary so much from person to person, this is really not worth discussing.
I think it's because even this information isn't necessarily common knowledge, and because people don't have any concept of how well the alternative sources of income pay. Posts like this and like incontrol's last post are the most useful.
I know from my perspective as a married homeowner who's starting a family, when I look at tournament prize winnings I think -- "how could a person survive on such a low and inconsistent income?" I know that coaching, streaming, and to some extent team membership helps players out, but I don't know what that means. Can streaming pay for health insurance? Can it pay rent? Can the teams help with that stuff?
I'm not interested because I want to pry into the personal lives of the players. Their income is their business and often it's not even their right to discuss it. But these people are also public figures and people are going to be curious about what kind of living they can make. Some people are voyeurs, some concerned, and some just immature, but curiosity is natural.
I can't help but have my curiosity piqued, but I can see how this speculation could make some of the pros uncomfortable or irritated.
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People gotta understand that it's all situational. One month they can earn SOOO much, and the next month all they get is their eventual 'salary' from their team. Depending on organisation that is.
It's an unstable source of income. But it's gotta be really damn fun.
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You only have aprox. 100 years (If your healthy) to enjoy your self. Do what makes you enjoy life. If money makes you enjoy life. Then maybe pro gamer is not the right profession to pursue. (From what i see, i am as ignorant to what really goes on as everyone else)
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On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
Logical Fallacy, Just because SCII is in part a mental game does not mean that they would be able to gain entry into a highly pursued lucrative career. I'm certain you do not quite understand how difficult it is to gain entry into the fields of Medicine, I-Banking, and Big law. (The turnover in I-Banking and Big Law is about 5 years by the way, so yes you will have made a decent chunk of money and gained a tangible skill in school, but the 150k paychecks aren't guaranteed to rain down on you forever.)
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On May 03 2011 12:33 Kvothe wrote:
Incontrol is probably like but I only make 15k a year guys, and 90% of that is from casting NASL, no way anyone else can make any money.
If I'm not mistaken iNcontroL should be one of the highest earners in the western scene, mainly due to him being such a popular coach. He has a (justified) high coaching rate of 80$ (which was up at 100$ for some time) and he's constantly booked out from what I've heard. I remember one time where he said on his stream that he's about to have his 9th lesson this week (and that was during the 100$ period). Even if he only does 4 lessons a week, that's still a decent income.
Furthermore he is the 2nd most important person on EG's SC2 team (after IdrA), so his salary should be alright as well. No idea how much he gets from NASL and stuff but the points I listed already pile up to a good amount of money.
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If I remember well, SarenS and Tuzer said in an interview they had a salary about 500€/month when they were in aAa, which is pretty low in France considering the minimum salary for a full-time job is about 1000€, but it is enough to pay a little flat and food (doesn't allow you to buy a car or things like that however). And as someone said before in this topic, players like Kas and Dimaga may have the same income, but considering the low cost of life in Ukraine, they are quite comfortable.
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On May 04 2011 00:29 -Zoda- wrote:
If I remember well, SarenS and Tuzer said in an interview they had a salary about 500€/month when they were in aAa, which is pretty low in France considering the minimum salary for a full-time job is about 1000€, but it is enough to pay a little flat and food (doesn't allow you to buy a car or things like that however). And as someone said before in this topic, players like Kas and Dimaga may have the same income, but considering the low cost of life in Ukraine, they are quite comfortable.
And that's not including streaming/winnings/coaching. It shouldn't be that hard to make about 500€ in the month just off streaming, coaching and winnings.
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Providing NASL takes off, I think it will be safe to say InControl will be the real moneymaker. I mean if NASL gets 10,000 subscriptions at $25 each thats $250,000 minus the $100k prize money leaves $150,000 for profit, reinvestment or whatever. That combined with his other incomes makes him #1 in I think.
As for the rest of the Pro Gamers, its too bad they dont make more money. Its not too hard for a guy out of school to make 6 figures nowadays (or close to it), so imo pro gamers should be paid more. They just need more people following them.
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Potentially a player could have the quality of:
Destiny stream+ ($14 per ad)
Husky youtube+ ($100,000 p/year)
Liquid Contract+ (No idea, but prob a significant amount)
InControL coaching+ ($150 per hour)
IMMVP skill ($$$ from tournaments)
Personal sponsorships (tyler/stride, TLO/drpepper)
That's a shitload of money.
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Pro gamers do not make a "set" amount of money. it will influx and there will be idle time. You want a number? that number is an estimate. Which is what destiny has announced in his AMA, its just an estimate.
There isn't a number, aside what might be a base salary that pro's get from their team but the extra income isn't measureable until the end of the year.
All your answers will be(mostly) speculation. Contracts and such hold a players tongue on what they get paid. If you hear about it, don't talk about it unless that player tells you "its ok to talk about it" because you might screw that player over.
SUre you can be "general" about what player gets paid what, but why even talk about it?
To validate to your parents and friends? No one gets to where they are by getting prevalidated. Thats a falsehood that no progamer went through, they simply played because they loved the game and the competition.
a CEO can get 100k a year, unless he gets canned half way and gets 50k. a waiter can range from 10k to 60k a year. The talk of salary is vain and just creates animosity.
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You think gaming is more fun than normal career? I'm in a so called boring field, accounting and love it more than gaming. I would like to focus on tax law most and help people and corporations save money on taxes but who knows where it will go. Most good accountants work for top 5 or fortune 500s and make partner/CFO and make millions a year. No pro gamer does.
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Glad he used my design and image I made, but sadface 
As for what pros make, it varies considerably. Not only do you have potential salary from teams, you have sponsorship dollars from companies and product endorsing. Lessons, streaming and tournament winnings all add up as well.
The big thing that someone probably mentioned in talking about Destiny, is what he showed on his stream. He showed the JTV page that charts the dollars made per day. At the time he showed it, he was at the point where he was averaging around 2200-2500 viewers consistently. His daily average as shown on the site was about $150/day.
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The big thing to take away from it all, is that it will never be standardized in the next five years, and it will depend on what avenues each gamer takes.
The concept can be used in any other career avenue. For instance, I know an incredibly skilled designer and coder, and he used to have plenty of clients and made good money. However, he started teaching classes, and he works far less and makes more money now.
Translating that to gaming, someone can be content with doing the work and winning in tournaments and being sponsored for their income, or they can work on generating content, or providing lessons to other players.
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There's opportunity cost too associated with pro gaming too regardless of how much they make. When burned out or tossed out at 30 you're not going to just walk right in to corporate America since there is age discrimination and experience discrimination. If you start school at 30 you're even more fucked. Meanwhile, someone working a real job at 22 has been investing is his/her 401k, climbing into higher levels & management and by 30 is already an established professional and pretty well off.
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On May 04 2011 04:15 tdt wrote:
There's opportunity cost too associated with pro gaming too regardless of how much they make. When burned out or tossed out at 30 you're not going to just walk right in to corporate America since there is age discrimination and experience discrimination. If you start school at 30 you're even more fucked. Meanwhile, someone working a real job at 22 has been investing is his/her 401k, climbing into higher levels & management and by 30 is already an established professional and pretty well off.
Correct, but then again, there is an opportunity cost with other career pursuits as well. Just because you pursue education and professional work does not mean you'll make it as a professional, and there are zounds of people who are stuck in the lower end of the income range despite going to college & university.
In general, though, I'd say that people who made it as a professional gamer could have also made it as a professional in another area. Yeah, it's "just" playing games, but being a successful pro-gamer requires a huge amount of dedication and it's that same dedication that will get you far in other careers in life. To this end, choosing to go the route of professional gaming is really about personal passion rather than economic considerations, since pro-gaming, like pro-sports, is a relatively exclusive field and there is, as you said, the question of "retirement" and what happens after that.
My guess is that most successful pro-gamers plan to be part of the field even after they "retire" as players - ie as managers, coaches, commentators, organizers, etc. They're risking a lot on the assumption that eSports will take off in the West. But then again, they always have.
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I'm not quite certain why pro-gamers seem so distraught over speculation over their earning range. I don't think anybody expects exact figures for each individual, rather it is just the average, taking into account as many factors as possible, that people are seeking.
iNcontroL's argument that stating "I will make the top 1% in anything is unreasonable" makes logical sense and it is absolutely rude and invasive to ask for specific details on an individual basis. However, in also acknowledging that it's good to have a dream, then why not help validate having said dream by offering some guidance as to what one can expect upon achieving it?
When a pro-athlete goes to a school to speak to students/fans they don't say "I make x amount of dollars and you can too!" They will more likely state the rough average the position they play (not including endorsements, coaching camps, etc.) will earn and if you become the best, you could be like "x"#1 player.
TL and other forums are essentially the "school" in which the pros can speak to the dreamers. If the reality of that average is from travel/gear - $20,000+ (not including individual sponsors/streaming/coaching) then that's what the range is. There are still plenty of semi-pro athletes chasing their dream of the big leagues playing for pennies on the side. I would assume everyone understands that the top earners in the entire eSports community are in a very rarefied existence and that the situation of each is completely different.
If a totally objective stranger to eSports were to look in on the current thread, I would argue that it appears that paid gamers do not speak about salary range because it may possibly discourage potential competition or that the range quite low and they are discouraging people from wasting other opportunities. The other possible deduction being that sponsored teams do not want salary ranges in the public realm because it then provides them less leverage when negotiating salaries with new players. (*caveat* I am not saying that anything in this last paragraph is the case)
Nevertheless, the less transparent, the more speculation. This IS the internet remember...
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On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
300k/yr for 5 yrs is enough to get married, have kids buy a house and go back to school to get proper education, people who do that actually chase their dreams, also reward isn't only money, being appreciated for what you do is also some form of reward
also there are several pros with girlfriends...
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Hear hear fayth!
Follow the dream
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On May 04 2011 04:15 tdt wrote:
There's opportunity cost too associated with pro gaming too regardless of how much they make. When burned out or tossed out at 30 you're not going to just walk right in to corporate America since there is age discrimination and experience discrimination. If you start school at 30 you're even more fucked. Meanwhile, someone working a real job at 22 has been investing is his/her 401k, climbing into higher levels & management and by 30 is already an established professional and pretty well off.
Who says a progamer can't do both?
Tyler for example, is in (pre?)med school. I am going back to school this summer as well.
Not everyone needs 10+ hours of training a day to be a good player.
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On May 04 2011 06:14 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 04:15 tdt wrote:
There's opportunity cost too associated with pro gaming too regardless of how much they make. When burned out or tossed out at 30 you're not going to just walk right in to corporate America since there is age discrimination and experience discrimination. If you start school at 30 you're even more fucked. Meanwhile, someone working a real job at 22 has been investing is his/her 401k, climbing into higher levels & management and by 30 is already an established professional and pretty well off. Who says a progamer can't do both? Tyler for example, is in (pre?)med school. I am going back to school this summer as well. Not everyone needs 10+ hours of training a day to be a good player.
A lot of people like to take a break before grad school for example. If I was single, fresh out of college, and a badass at SC I'd seriously consider taking a few years off to travel the US and the world playing pro SC for a time.
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On May 04 2011 03:42 tdt wrote:
You think gaming is more fun than normal career? I'm in a so called boring field, accounting and love it more than gaming. I would like to focus on tax law most and help people and corporations save money on taxes but who knows where it will go. Most good accountants work for top 5 or fortune 500s and make partner/CFO and make millions a year. No pro gamer does.
what are you trying to say?...
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On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
If its doing something you love I see nothing wrong with it. If it makes you happy its better than being 'less miserable than homeless' working in a boring 9-5 job. The reason that people are drawn to being a pro is because its dedicating their life to something they love. Which is a task that most people who are middle-aged would have traded a lot of their jobs for instead of just doing something for the money. Though money makes it possible, its not the root behind any of it. Its the love for the game, the love for competition, and the love for the community that makes players want to go pro. And about job security, if you look at the potential of the industry, it actually looks incredibly promising for the future, while having a good education to fall back on is good (which sc pros have a lot of times) investing your life into esports is actually not as risky as you make it out to be. Your note about passion and being 'forced' to play all doesn't make sense. If a player loves the game to the point where he wants to go pro. Then practicing all that time is something he would prefer to do over a regular job. The argument you made could be applied to any other possible job in the world. Yes if you are doing it for the money its not good, but if you are doing out of passion and its what you want to do with your life, I'd say you are a step ahead of a LOT of the people in the world who are stuck in jobs that do not fulfill their life's desires and don't have a passion that gives their life meaning.
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Calgary25967 Posts
On May 04 2011 06:18 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 03:42 tdt wrote:
You think gaming is more fun than normal career? I'm in a so called boring field, accounting and love it more than gaming. I would like to focus on tax law most and help people and corporations save money on taxes but who knows where it will go. Most good accountants work for top 5 or fortune 500s and make partner/CFO and make millions a year. No pro gamer does. what are you trying to say?...
lol i love when people enter a thread to justify their careers.
Your think Idra is cool?! You should see my junior field technician skills! 1 out of 7 junior field technicians have gone on to start their own company grossing well over $2.5M. I love my job! I'm great!
-_-
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On May 04 2011 05:18 TheCoon wrote:I'm not quite certain why pro-gamers seem so distraught over speculation over their earning range. I don't think anybody expects exact figures for each individual, rather it is just the average, taking into account as many factors as possible, that people are seeking. iNcontroL's argument that stating "I will make the top 1% in anything is unreasonable" makes logical sense and it is absolutely rude and invasive to ask for specific details on an individual basis. However, in also acknowledging that it's good to have a dream, then why not help validate having said dream by offering some guidance as to what one can expect upon achieving it? + Show Spoiler +When a pro-athlete goes to a school to speak to students/fans they don't say "I make x amount of dollars and you can too!" They will more likely state the rough average the position they play (not including endorsements, coaching camps, etc.) will earn and if you become the best, you could be like "x"#1 player.
TL and other forums are essentially the "school" in which the pros can speak to the dreamers. If the reality of that average is from travel/gear - $20,000+ (not including individual sponsors/streaming/coaching) then that's what the range is. There are still plenty of semi-pro athletes chasing their dream of the big leagues playing for pennies on the side. I would assume everyone understands that the top earners in the entire eSports community are in a very rarefied existence and that the situation of each is completely different.
If a totally objective stranger to eSports were to look in on the current thread, I would argue that it appears that paid gamers do not speak about salary range because it may possibly discourage potential competition or that the range quite low and they are discouraging people from wasting other opportunities. The other possible deduction being that sponsored teams do not want salary ranges in the public realm because it then provides them less leverage when negotiating salaries with new players. (*caveat* I am not saying that anything in this last paragraph is the case)
Nevertheless, the less transparent, the more speculation. This IS the internet remember...
Agreed. Asking and speculating upon specific people's income is invasive, but trying to figure out the general range of a job's salary is useful to potential and aspiring gamers.
This information would be helpful so that (1) they can make they decision to commit to gaming with salary as a factor (positive or negative), and (2) so that when they negotiate their salary or sponsorship pay, they have a good benchmark and idea of what they can possibly get. This information on average salary range is normal and useful to anybody seeking a job in any industry, really.
Paid gamers shouldn't have to come out and say what they make in public, but perhaps one of the trusted admins could take an anonymous survey and garner that information for us? That would be a boon to the paid gamers themselves, and likely raising their potential salary to be honest, as they would likely attempt to renegotiate higher pay based on what someone else makes or simply leave to another team/sponsorship. (Okay, this is probably overly optimistic, as it's a sponsor's market out there, not a player's market) But still, I think my point still stands -- this knowledge would be useful to gamers themselves, as those paid on the lower end of the spectrum could potentially renegotiate pay raises.
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On May 04 2011 02:43 Lightwish01 wrote:
Providing NASL takes off, I think it will be safe to say InControl will be the real moneymaker. I mean if NASL gets 10,000 subscriptions at $25 each thats $250,000 minus the $100k prize money leaves $150,000 for profit, reinvestment or whatever. That combined with his other incomes makes him #1 in I think.
As for the rest of the Pro Gamers, its too bad they dont make more money. Its not too hard for a guy out of school to make 6 figures nowadays (or close to it), so imo pro gamers should be paid more. They just need more people following them.
This is absolutely useless.... There is no way to know the contract details that the guys behind NASL have with the casters. He could have agreed to do as much casting as they wanted for a 15k salary, locked, as long as NASL exists. Or he could have a profit sharing deal.... no way to know.
Furthermore, to only subtract the prize money from the total subscriber money is ridiculous. The studio costs, production costs, infrastructure (computers, etc.), staffing, utilities, and who knows what else are probably quite substantial. Also, you didn't even take into account advertising revenue, which is probably quite a bit, 10k+ viewers for the main stream, but also for the recast.. they aren't doing a Euro recast just to be nice and accessible.
Without hard subscriber numbers, and details about the 400K(I think incontrol mentioned this number in his live Q&A) that was put up by the sponsor, then it really makes no sense to say that any success will transfer into dollars for any particular person.
The only thing for sure that you can say tying this to the success of incontrol is that it definitely gives him a lot of community exposure, and that 'probably' helps him in other ways, like his own stream (though this is seems to be set up by the same guys behind NASL, so I doubt he gets all of the ad revenue from it, unless they are investing in it as advertising--unknowable conjecture), and to help increase demand for his coaching (to jack the price).
Also, it is probably good for other things he is tied to, for instance a plea on NASL for 20k ppl to watch SotG, and whatever else they plug.
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This is a great site. But look how quick the money drops off. By #20, it's only $15,500, which isn't really livable.
I live off slightly less than that right now.... quite doable really.
Nice to see quite a lot of players making a living from sc2 already. The scene's developing so fast!
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I'm sorry, but you are completely speaking out of your ass.
On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
For starters, if you love playing games, why would you not try to do it for a living? Also, saying that only ugly girls and nerds watch gaming is a gross generalization that would offend the vast majority of people who watch gamers play. Seondly, many people actually appreciate what gamers do, unlike most lawyers, managers, and bankers, since those careers all have negative stigmas attached to them as well, in addition to that fact that those positions are extremely common. So choosing those career paths are fairly undesirable, unless your thinking purely financially, which means you are going to be unhappy, unless you make it big (which sounds vaguely familiar...)
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
Ok, where are you getting $300k/year? and in the event you make that kind of a salary, 3-5 years at $300k is more than enough to live comfortably in even the most expensive countries if you invest it well. It's also enough, as fayth said, to buy a house, get married, and go back to school, which many people in your aforementioned careers do anyway.
What makes you think that all gamers have no education? Many gamers went to college and have a degree, many more went to college and dropped out to pursue their career. Those who didn't go still have the option to go; people do not become brain-dead if they skip a few years of school, in fact studies show that gaming drastically increases brain functioning.
You also mention job security. Does anyone have job security these days? The world we live in isn't like the 50s where you could go to school, get good grades, and find a safe secure life that will pay you well and give you a pension when you retire. On the contrary, many jobs are getting shipped overseas, and those that are not consistently lay off employees for younger ones that expect a lower salary.
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
I really want to see how idra, tyler, and other old school bw players react to this comment. They probably don't care too much since you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. But let's assume for a second that you do know what you are talking about, do you realize how much work these guys put into their craft? IdrA's career didn't fall into his lap, he worked his ass off to get to where he is, and as a result is one of the most sought out people, not only to those in the community, but also as representation for those looking at the community. Tyler is the same. He shows hard work and diligence at a level that you obviously can't comprehend. That is why so many people love him, including many fans in this community, but more importantly the people close to him. You cannoy help but respect these guys because of their dedication and unique take on life.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
No one is made to practice 12 hours a day, as that is massively counterproductive and SC2 does not require that kind of practice to master. secondly, define deadbeat, because while an uneducated person might use that word while writing an analysis (which you are doing despite how uninformed and off-base it may be) I would say something like: a person who has no goals or aspirations and as such has no chance at succeeding in life. Well ya, it would not be fun to be that person, but the fact is that anyone who has success in anything, not just gaming, is the complete opposite of that definition. additionally, gamers are appreciated for their work, and are provided the opportunity to meet many great people, travel, and get paid for what they love to do. That beats the hell out of what is apparently your ideal of success, which is: getting married, having kids, and buying a house. Because while that is not everyone's idea of success (certainly not mine) many people have already achieved that in life; just look at djWHEAT and nony to name a couple.
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I will try to spread some light for you guys.
First of all I think the angle and focus in the discussion was wrong from the beginning and I will try to separate the different kind income that a player might have.
Team sponsoring
1) Traveling. First of all players want to have the possibility to travel to tournaments which actually isn't for free at all, looking at tournaments you normally will go break even if you place like second or third at an event.. Of course the player also wants support from the organization with booking tickets, sign up, travel planning etc which also is a cost for a team. Some teams support their players more than others, very few can send all the players to all events they want to go to.
2) Salary is the next part. For teams that can't send their players to all events it still common to give them a salary if they are a good player. Good players in Europe at least seem to have 200-300 Euros per month. The top dogs in Europe about 3-4 months ago seemed to have about 1000 Euros per month. I would assume that the salaries haven't changed that much since then. Although it should be said that some players have been individually sponsored like the MLG players TLO, Tyler, Kiwikaki also players like White-Ra and Grubby have build their own brand and have most likely higher income. This is more based on speculation I can't tell how for example Liquid and their MLG-sponsored players have divided the costs or how much the sponsorship is worth.
Hey what? Aren't those salaries kinda low? Yes compared to for example Counter-Strike (where the salaries now seems to have dropped slightly) the best StarCraft 2 players still have lower salaries then the Counter-Strike players. There is several reasons to this and I will mention a few. First of all there is a much higher competition between Counter-Strike teams to keep their players or teams. Transfers etc are very common every year and if some organization isn't keeping up with the rest then they will lose their winning team.
In StaraCraft II as it seems it's not the same at all. First of all, about hundreds of players are actually worth sponsoring as they get into tournaments, can promote the team and its sponsors. A rank 50 player in Europe is still a known player compared to a rank 50 team in Counter-Strike. For an organization it's very risky to buy a player from another organization as it extremely hard to know if that player will be one of the best for another year as the competition within the game is very high and also the way the game is played is changing all the time. We have seen very few team transfers in the top which is a proof of this.
Another aspect to this is also that it actually takes time for teams to capitalize on a new game and team. I make an example here. Let's say that Team X gets about $100 000 from sponsor Z per year and this new game StarCraft 2 is released and they have to start recruiting players and send them around the world and pay salaries. This organization X can't just go to their sponsor and say hey we need more money for this new game that will be shit in the future. That's why they have to prioritize and show their sponsors maybe 3-6 months later that this gives good numbers and a good revenue on investment for the sponsor to increase the sponsorship, nothing that is done easily. There is actually a lag effect with this. On a side note, there is a reason you see all these new leagues pop up at about the same time. People realized during the fall that StarCraft 2 is huge and then started to create an organization for a league and search for investors which takes months. Same goes for team’s sponsors that realized that Starcraft 2 is huge and that they have to invest money into the game to get the exposure to this new market.
3) Accommodation Something that I think most of you are forgetting. The teams that have Pro gaming houses like in Korea are actually paying a lot of money for the players. Not only the rent but also food, computers and someone who takes care of all the service like cooking, cleaning, laundry etc. When people are looking at StarCraft 2 teams in Korea and saying "OMG they don't have any salaries" you should remember this. Accommodation must be considered as salary.
4) Promotion and Shootouts. On top of this it's very common that the teams with their sponsors are using their players to promote their products, maybe even give response on product developments etc. Also when it comes to exhibitions and different events then it's very common to use the sponsored players for show games, shootouts etc. All teams and situations have different solutions on this. In some contracts you are obligated to participate in such activities. When it comes to products etc I would say it's a case to case deal. Shootouts at exhibitions are normally paid like a bonus to motivate players to attend and do their best.
Tournament money
The best tip that I have to you as a fan is to have the view of prize money as a bonus to the player. If you think that a player can live on only prize money then think again. It is way too risky and as already mentioned in this thread it's only a few (20-30) that even earn that much money in the world. Also worth remembering is that it's not uncommon that tournaments isn't paying out prize money or at least that the money isn't paid out for a very long time. Nothing you can rely on when you going to pay your rent. It should be said that it seem to get better and better and also that the prize money are increasing per player. I should also mention that it' not uncommon that teams take a cut of the prize money. Some do and some don't, teams can take up to 30% and it has occasionally happen that organizations take all the prize money to cover the traveling costs.
Own projects and activities
I think this is a completely other discussion as this should be considered as work besides being a pro gamer. It is a side job which can give tons of money. There is no hidden truth that some of the streamers, both players and casters have been able to really capitalized on this. BUT remember they aren't doing anything wrong. If someone wants to pay good money to be coached by a player they like then let them do that? If tens of thousands want to see a stream and the player/caster can earn money then what is wrong with that? The only problem is maybe that players actually can earn more money from streaming then playing tournaments or promoting their team/brands then it could be a problem if the gap got way to big. Without tournaments, sponsors etc there won't be any competition but that's no risk so.
Why don’t players want to talk about it?
First of all I must say that I don't think it's anything wrong with someone not want to let the world know what he or she earns. There are though some more problems into it. First of all, all these sponsor money and salaries are actually quite often "black money" paid out with different tricks like poker sites etc to avoid taxes. Therefore players and organization don't want to get in the spotlight. Another side to it is that of course it's hurting a player/caster that wants to earn money on being "the nice guy who does it for the community" when he or she at the same time actually brings home a lot of money. It's easy to get the crowd on the Internet against you.
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It seems as though quite a few people in this thread wish progamers made lots of money. But there's just not that much money available.
Sure, it's possible to make $50k/year coaching, but how many people are famous enough to command the hourly rate necessary to bank that much? And how big is the market of people willing to pay to get better at a videogame? Big enough to support a few well-paid, in-demand coaches and legions of people who do it for pocket change, I expect.
Similarly, you can make decent revenue from a web presence if you have enough eyes on your site, but it takes quite a bit of traffic for ads to pay off and few people can command that much attention. If you have 10k people watching you for 10 hours a day, you can pile up a nice chunk of change, but there aren't hundreds of players streaming to 10k viewers all day every day.
If you're lucky enough to get a team/sponsorship, you certainly make something, but whoever is writing the checks has to be making enough money off having you in the fold to warrant giving you a cut. So again, we come back to the most recognized/successful/charismatic players earning the lion's share of the money.
Asking "how much do the pros earn" is an empty question. It's like asking how much a musician makes. If you're a rock star, you make millions. If you're in a garage band, you make beer money.
Progaming might provide a decent living, it might not. You're gambling on a fickle marketplace where it's all about the individual -- if you're the best, you'll get paid well. If you're a nobody, you'll get paid like a nobody. There's no minimum salary for professional gamers, just like there's no minimum salary for poker players or golfers, On the other hand, any engineer out of college can expect to find steady work for $50k/year or whatever. You can be a cog in the machine and be well-compensated as such, unlike in progaming where the machine is much smaller and needs fewer cogs, with far less homogeneity in how valuable they are.
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I'm just wondering if the guys on Liquid TLO,Tyler,Huk,Jinro have a team salary and when they go to LANS is it paid for them?
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Thanks a lot Hellspawn, very informative post.
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Russian Federation1132 Posts
I do not want ot talk about progamers solaries because it's their right (and their sponsors, i assume) to share this information. I just wanted to share waht i've found about youtube sponsorship.
According to http://www.businessinsider.com/richest-youtube-stars-of-2010-2010-12?op=1
there's fee around 0.04 USD CENT (which stands for 0.0004 $) for 1 view of top ranked video. So you can now make your own calculations on any particular issue you're interested in.
Ofc i do not know whether the information on this site is valid.
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On May 04 2011 07:07 Rasky wrote:
I'm just wondering if the guys on Liquid TLO,Tyler,Huk,Jinro have a team salary and when they go to LANS is it paid for them?
yes their travel expenses are paid, and they have a salary, nothing huge I would guess but enough to not starve
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Young people, who see the success in others, they are surely thinking "what if I could be like them", or "could I do the same or better". They see SC2 being hyped as the new thing that could possible make esports explode(GSL, TSL, NASL, all these crazy events that seem larger than life).
It's not unreasonable to start asking questions. Namely, can I make a living doing this, and move out of my parent's house so I can do whatever I want to do. To the person who said "30k is not a lot" well where do you live? If it's New York, then obviously you better as hell be scoring it big if you want to afford even a dumpster apartment to call your home.
But if you live in a place where 30k USD is a king's ransom, please don't look down on others who make only that amount. But back to the topic.
Every serious profession you can think of, has the salary ranges posted on career portals/sites. Many of these stats are inflated or reflect only absolute best case scenarios(not every engineer or every DBA scores 100k/year, it's just reality). So you can safely take what you see, subtract 30%, and that's a reasonable amount to assume you'd make from that prof(not starting wage, but with years of experience under your belt).
Really, we should be just straight out answering questions that people want to know, and if we're honest with ourselves, prompted this thread in the first place.
- Can I become a progamer?
- How much will I make?
- What would it take for me to get up there?
- How long will it take?
- Who do I contact to make this happen?
The above questions need to have solid and straight answers, not muddy non-sensical commentary. Bottom line is this. Someone wants to be a pro-gamer at SC2. What concrete steps should this person be following, to just make it happen?
Let's get answers. Not useless garble such as "don't work for money, make money work for you" which is meaningless dribble and contains no real information whatsoever.
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Not for nothing, but I would imagine pro-gamers would want to know what other pro-gamers make, for negotiation, if nothing else.
If FXO is throwing money at a member of another team, that member should be able to use that to leverage a higher pro salary, maybe? I mean, salary secrecy hurts employees, not employers. This is classic information asymmetry at work.
I'm using FXO as an example because they've shown that they have got tons of money to throw around. Is there an informal agreement among teams not to poach star players? I don't know but wouldn't it be interesting to find out?
Let's say someone is starting out and /could/ be in that top 1% or 0.5% who can make it rich on SC2, if they spent the time to practice (i.e.: they are in high masters or grandmasters after a few weeks with the game). Well, in order to make an informed decision about whether or not to dedicate that kind of time or maybe spend it to finish a law degree (for example), it would certainly be helpful to know the salary range of those top players.
Absent representation, I also think that perhaps those new to the pro-gaming scene (i.e.: up-and-coming players) could be lowballed by pro-teams who /do/ know the market for salaries. If some pro-team went to a new up-and-coming player and said, "Kid, you can join a pro-team, here's a 3 year contract where we pay you $400 a week, but we keep all of your tournament earnings." maybe the kid takes it and ends up with a raw deal if that kid turns out to be Flash.
Anyway, I just think it never hurts to have more information - but then, I work in an industry where the pay scales are both 1) lockstep and 2) public so that we know if/when our employers are trying to screw us over.
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Actually, I've heard that that's one of the reasons pro-gamer salaries aren't released, because teams are fearful of poaching.
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could a progamer at least shed some light on how much of the prize money from a major event goes to them and how much of it goes to the team? Such as MLG, GSL, TSL ect. and major teams like Liquid, EG, Dignitas, ect.
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It's pretty easy to do imo.
Do an anonymous survey and release only the hard stats (no player or team names)
Most top teams have salaries or at least monthly allowances + sponsored travel.
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OK so lets stop talking out our ass's and get down to real numbers.
For ads, first off, the amount of money earned for impressions is DRAMATICALLY different than money earned from clicks. 3000 ad impressions (people seeing the ad) will maybe net you on average .60 However each click can net you anywhere from .20 to $2. The amount is determined by HOW FAR THE CLICKER VENTURES INTO THE AD. For example i see an ad, i click said ad and go on to purchase an item from the site, ad aware calculates this and pays.
Here is an example: (FYI this is my old website i used, note the difference in income from impressions and clicks.)
[url blocked]
As for salaries its impossible to tell with out first hand experience how much pro's gain from sponsorship.
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On May 04 2011 07:54 Tag wrote:
OK so lets stop talking out our ass's and get down to real numbers.
For ads, first off, the amount of money earned for impressions is DRAMATICALLY different than money earned from clicks. 3000 ad impressions (people seeing the ad) will maybe net you on average .60 However each click can net you anywhere from .20 to $2. The amount is determined by HOW FAR THE CLICKER VENTURES INTO THE AD. For example i see an ad, i click said ad and go on to purchase an item from the site, ad aware calculates this and pays.
Here is an example: (FYI this is my old website i used, note the difference in income from impressions and clicks.)
[url blocked]
As for salaries its impossible to tell with out first hand experience how much pro's gain from sponsorship.
This is closer to the truth, but it depends on where you are advertising. Impression payments on youtube videos rarely fall below that .50$/1000view mark for the lowest earners. But I believe that is all I can say as my partnership contract with youtube doesn't permit me to talk about my personal CPM/RPM.
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On May 04 2011 07:44 FatkiddsLag wrote:
could a progamer at least shed some light on how much of the prize money from a major event goes to them and how much of it goes to the team? Such as MLG, GSL, TSL ect. and major teams like Liquid, EG, Dignitas, ect.
I think I've read on a Reddit AMA on Reddit, by LiquidHeosat, which I think is the owner of TLAF that the players keep all the prize money.
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On May 04 2011 06:14 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 04:15 tdt wrote:
There's opportunity cost too associated with pro gaming too regardless of how much they make. When burned out or tossed out at 30 you're not going to just walk right in to corporate America since there is age discrimination and experience discrimination. If you start school at 30 you're even more fucked. Meanwhile, someone working a real job at 22 has been investing is his/her 401k, climbing into higher levels & management and by 30 is already an established professional and pretty well off. Who says a progamer can't do both? Tyler for example, is in (pre?)med school. I am going back to school this summer as well. Not everyone needs 10+ hours of training a day to be a good player.
not sure how to phrase this without sounding like a dick.
but if you practiced 10 hours a day you could be worldgosu protoss and make the huge moneys, especially if sc2 keeps getting bigger.
obviously if you keep going to school you arent putting all your eggs in the 1 basket, but i cant imagine you getting great grades if you play this much sc2, but you dont play enough to be the worlds greatest either. if you love gaming its worth putting in the longer hours because it will also payout more?
On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
User was warned for this post
i heard day9 made all his big bucks while he played, and now is poorer than ever. just like all those sports pros who never go into coaching / punditry after...
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Why don’t players want to talk about it?
First of all I must say that I don't think it's anything wrong with someone not want to let the world know what he or she earns. There are though some more problems into it. First of all, all these sponsor money and salaries are actually quite often "black money" paid out with different tricks like poker sites etc to avoid taxes. Therefore players and organization don't want to get in the spotlight. Another side to it is that of course it's hurting a player/caster that wants to earn money on being "the nice guy who does it for the community" when he or she at the same time actually brings home a lot of money. It's easy to get the crowd on the Internet against you.
You do not mention that the teams probably don´t want the salary to be public since it would increase the competition about the good players and therefore higher their wages. They force the players to not talk about it so that they can continue to pay relatively low salaries compared to the players market value. A player who breaks this rule could get "blacklisted" and kicked from the team.
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Nevertheless the Pros should have a good grip on what they can demand. In an interview Hasuobs mentioned that he pretty much knows the salary for every EPS-player except for TLO. I guess it is common sense that Pros talk about stuff like that in private.
Btw this might be off-topic but is Tyler currently really in (pre-)medschool. I thought he`d be a fulltime pro.
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On May 04 2011 08:16 Loooui wrote:Show nested quote +
Why don’t players want to talk about it?
First of all I must say that I don't think it's anything wrong with someone not want to let the world know what he or she earns. There are though some more problems into it. First of all, all these sponsor money and salaries are actually quite often "black money" paid out with different tricks like poker sites etc to avoid taxes. Therefore players and organization don't want to get in the spotlight. Another side to it is that of course it's hurting a player/caster that wants to earn money on being "the nice guy who does it for the community" when he or she at the same time actually brings home a lot of money. It's easy to get the crowd on the Internet against you.
You do not mention that the teams probably don´t want the salary to be public since it would increase the competition about the good players and therefore higher their wages. They force the players to not talk about it so that they can continue to pay relatively low salaries compared to the players market value. A player who breaks this rule could get "blacklisted" and kicked from the team.
i dont think thats true at all. using everyones favourite gracken from under the sea, idra, lets make an example. EG pays idra 1 dollar a year to play, but hes under NDA to never reveal his wages. that still wouldnt realistically stop him from having a quiet word with tyler after sotg about how much liquid pays. liquid pays tyler 2 dollars to chill out, idra is outraged. doesnt renew his eg contract, lets another team pick him up.
sure, no pro is going to reveal these NDA details in public, but you have to be crazy to think there isnt quiet mutterings and msn conversations about it between the pros themselves. i have no doubt that top level pros get paid quite a decent amount, especially if they are on a well backed team like EG.
the idea that EG is in some tax evasion conspiracy is just as crazy. look at the companies that back EG. you think they want anything to do with an organisation that could tarnish their image with a story like that getting out? when their whole interest in EG is a pr exercise to begin with? tin foil hat time again :D
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On May 04 2011 08:29 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 08:16 Loooui wrote:
Why don’t players want to talk about it?
First of all I must say that I don't think it's anything wrong with someone not want to let the world know what he or she earns. There are though some more problems into it. First of all, all these sponsor money and salaries are actually quite often "black money" paid out with different tricks like poker sites etc to avoid taxes. Therefore players and organization don't want to get in the spotlight. Another side to it is that of course it's hurting a player/caster that wants to earn money on being "the nice guy who does it for the community" when he or she at the same time actually brings home a lot of money. It's easy to get the crowd on the Internet against you.
You do not mention that the teams probably don´t want the salary to be public since it would increase the competition about the good players and therefore higher their wages. They force the players to not talk about it so that they can continue to pay relatively low salaries compared to the players market value. A player who breaks this rule could get "blacklisted" and kicked from the team. i dont think thats true at all. using everyones favourite gracken from under the sea, idra, lets make an example. EG pays idra 1 dollar a year to play, but hes under NDA to never reveal his wages. that still wouldnt realistically stop him from having a quiet word with tyler after sotg about how much liquid pays. liquid pays tyler 2 dollars to chill out, idra is outraged. doesnt renew his eg contract, lets another team pick him up. sure, no pro is going to reveal these NDA details in public, but you have to be crazy to think there isnt quiet mutterings and msn conversations about it between the pros themselves. i have no doubt that top level pros get paid quite a decent amount, especially if they are on a well backed team like EG. the idea that EG is in some tax evasion conspiracy is just as crazy. look at the companies that back EG. you think they want anything to do with an organisation that could tarnish their image with a story like that getting out? when their whole interest in EG is a pr exercise to begin with? tin foil hat time again :D
I do not agree. Sure, these players might have a word with each other. Lets call them player x and player z. BUT how would player x proceed (x who is same skill level as player z) when he know that player z earns twice the salary he gets?
It is not necessarily true that player x would get a higher salary if he quit his team. He would take a risk since other teams might be full and there are a lot of factors involved like team practise, management, atmosphere and friends in the team. It is not as simple as just leaving the team and automatically get a better offer since you know your friend got it.
Would player x say that player z gets twice his salary to his team when the salary is supposed to be a secret and risk player z relation to player z team as they then know that he breaks their agreement about secrecy. If player x with this information only says that he wants a pay raise without having proof that player z earns twice as much on his team, then his claim is worth so much less. When the salaries are not made public this kind of gossip is just... gossip and the teams can decline the pay raise based on this.
I would not call it a conspiracy, that is not really true. But making the salaries public would absolutely higher the average pro wages, and lead to a more competitive market.
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On May 03 2011 17:18 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 16:54 Holcan wrote:On May 03 2011 16:26 5unrise wrote:On May 03 2011 08:16 Holcan wrote:
good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less. What's your evidence? Or just reasoning even? Don't just pull numbers off your ass and expect people to believe a year of managing a sponorship seeking sc2 team 2 years of managing a sponsor seeking wc3 team 5 years of administrative work on the semi professional level in wc3, so I was in constant contact with players like Empire.Kas, Thorzain, etc. I dont care if you believe me or not, but my numbers are the closest you are going to get in this thread. 'sponsorship seeking' the people who actually found sponsors might have a better idea of what kind of money is there.
Since this thread is all based off speculation on loose facts, I will continue the trend with my own speculation. Idra's response seems to be discrediting Holcan's analysis of how much a pro makes per year. My assumption is that Idra wouldn't imply Holcan is wrong about his estimate of salaries if pros were actually making less than the estimated salaries because that is just self deprecating. Thus, I am concluding that pro SCII gamers actually make more than the estimates of Holcan. The part that I think that was most unlikely about Holcan's estimates is that NA pros make the same or less than what people make at Mcdonalds. That's just bullshit.
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On May 04 2011 09:30 mooshoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 17:18 IdrA wrote:On May 03 2011 16:54 Holcan wrote:On May 03 2011 16:26 5unrise wrote:On May 03 2011 08:16 Holcan wrote:
good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less. What's your evidence? Or just reasoning even? Don't just pull numbers off your ass and expect people to believe a year of managing a sponorship seeking sc2 team 2 years of managing a sponsor seeking wc3 team 5 years of administrative work on the semi professional level in wc3, so I was in constant contact with players like Empire.Kas, Thorzain, etc. I dont care if you believe me or not, but my numbers are the closest you are going to get in this thread. 'sponsorship seeking' the people who actually found sponsors might have a better idea of what kind of money is there. Since this thread is all based off speculation on loose facts, I will continue the trend with my own speculation. Idra's response seems to be discrediting Holcan's analysis of how much a pro makes per year. My assumption is that Idra wouldn't imply Holcan is wrong about his estimate of salaries if pros were actually making less than the estimated salaries because that is just self deprecating. Thus, I am concluding that pro SCII gamers actually make more than the estimates of Holcan. The part that I think that was most unlikely about Holcan's estimates is that NA pros make the same or less than what people make at Mcdonalds. That's just bullshit.
12-18k a year is bullshit? how much do you think people deserve to play video games? Like honestly? Do you think Axslav should get 1k a a month for what he does, plus travelling fees? How about ROOT Gaming that doesnt even have sponsors and pay travel fees out of their own pocket? Its not bullshit, sorry for putting a realistic perspective on the scenario. If you worked a full time job at mcdonalds, you would be making the same, if not more money than the average north american pro gamer.
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I'd like to offer my two cents here ...
(1) Online Marketing is an extremely deep and complicated field. Some people here have attempted to transmit some of the basic ideas like Pay Per Click [PPC], Cost Per Million [CPM], Impression Sharing, etc, etc ... These are basic metrics and methods used to communicate relationships in the online marketing world. Each platform will speak this same language but have different, sometimes vastly different, integration and payment models.
There is no real sense in speculating. The cold hard truth is that if you have a product that creates mass interest, such as a daily stream that gets thousands of viewers, there are ways you can monetize that. The savvy will find ways to maximize the monetary value of this interest, others will use various content farms and get paid a fraction of what the interest is actually worth. This is not just for the gaming community, but virtually all communities that are generating content.
(2) Be happy loving the idea of the dream. You love the game, you love the heroes you support, and heck, maybe you're even a Master level player where it is conceivable that you could go pro one day. But, whether you're a SC2 Master, or master guitar player, or whatever, the competition is super, super steep and skill is not the only prerequisite. In my experience it is often better to love the idea of the dream more than actually thinking it could become a reality. Now, let me stop you there for a second if you're still reading; I'm not saying don't follow your dreams. This section does not apply to the people who will make it. Why do I know that? Because the people that make it just do it. They make it happen.
Most people don't realize that once you go pro it is no longer a leisure activity. It is no longer "something you do for fun." It is a job, and you're not the boss. When you load up the game, you are working. This idea has many parallels in the world of musicians. You can sell out local pubs by selling tickets to some friends, printing a few flyers, and it is amazing. You're on top of the world. But you're not a rock star and probably will not become one. I guess what I'm trying to communicate, and probably not doing so very well, is that the sheer quantity of determination, sacrifice, work, resources, connections, and luck involved in going pro in the sports or entertainment world is typically beyond that of those with stars in their eyes. So, don't get to caught up in that. Do it for why you're good at it.
All that being said; If you want to do it, just do it. Make it happen. Be prepared to put in the work, quite your job, leave your girlfriend, move to a different part of the world. But, don't just kinda do it, give it everything you have. But if you're kinda in between, just continue having fun and living life.
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Just to give some people perspective... the top WoW pro gamers barely covered their expenses. Many would lose money by competing. Most team sponsorships were NOTHING beyond travel expenses (at best). I understand that SC2 has a larger following, but it'd be foolish to think they make much. Remember that each MLG type event probably costs them 1k just to play (plane, hotel, entry fee, food). Except for guys ROUTINELY winning 5 figure tournament prizes, they likely barely make enough to live off of, at best. Having a real part-time job is almost required.
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16952 Posts
On May 04 2011 08:24 Irrational_Animal wrote:
Nevertheless the Pros should have a good grip on what they can demand. In an interview Hasuobs mentioned that he pretty much knows the salary for every EPS-player except for TLO. I guess it is common sense that Pros talk about stuff like that in private.
Btw this might be off-topic but is Tyler currently really in (pre-)medschool. I thought he`d be a fulltime pro.
No. His wife is in medical school.
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Yeah and I think that right after revealing how much / little everyone makes with the game, we should make polls where people vote to determine one player's salary..
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How can you hate on someone for wondering what kind of financial security their idols have?
Sorry but I thought that some of the early animosity in this thread was totally out of line. Some points posters have made are obvious: income varies between player, is wildly variable, hard to estimate, etc... but the underlying theme of this thread is great.
Net takeaway that I have is that unless you have the talent/time/connections to make it to the very top, putting all your eggs in the starcraft income basket could be risky.
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If you're thinking pro-gaming is a good way to make money, newsflash, unless you're the best of the best, you're going to be living in your parents' basement.
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On May 04 2011 08:13 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 06:14 Minigun wrote:On May 04 2011 04:15 tdt wrote:
There's opportunity cost too associated with pro gaming too regardless of how much they make. When burned out or tossed out at 30 you're not going to just walk right in to corporate America since there is age discrimination and experience discrimination. If you start school at 30 you're even more fucked. Meanwhile, someone working a real job at 22 has been investing is his/her 401k, climbing into higher levels & management and by 30 is already an established professional and pretty well off. Who says a progamer can't do both? Tyler for example, is in (pre?)med school. I am going back to school this summer as well. Not everyone needs 10+ hours of training a day to be a good player. not sure how to phrase this without sounding like a dick. but if you practiced 10 hours a day you could be worldgosu protoss and make the huge moneys, especially if sc2 keeps getting bigger. obviously if you keep going to school you arent putting all your eggs in the 1 basket, but i cant imagine you getting great grades if you play this much sc2, but you dont play enough to be the worlds greatest either. if you love gaming its worth putting in the longer hours because it will also payout more? Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
User was warned for this post i heard day9 made all his big bucks while he played, and now is poorer than ever. just like all those sports pros who never go into coaching / punditry after...
i don't think even anyone playing 10 hours / day can just win everything and make huge money, you can't be consistant enough to win every tournament, there is variance in SC2
you can get super unlucky in ur group/bracket draws for a whole year making it a lot harder (a bit like how incontrol got 4th with all the good players there)
I doubt pros rely on tourney wins all that much to make money, cuz that's really very little money for the whole pool of pros
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On May 04 2011 16:02 David451 wrote:
If you're thinking pro-gaming is a good way to make money, newsflash, unless you're the best of the best, you're going to be living in your parents' basement.
some can probably share an appartment
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On May 04 2011 16:02 David451 wrote:
If you're thinking pro-gaming is a good way to make money, newsflash, unless you're the best of the best, you're going to be living in your parents' basement.
Ignorance like this is entertaining.
People don't understand how many people actually get coaching. Coaching is like 99% of my salary, and I do quite a bit of it. And by quite a bit I mean quite a bit.
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On May 04 2011 16:27 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:02 David451 wrote:
If you're thinking pro-gaming is a good way to make money, newsflash, unless you're the best of the best, you're going to be living in your parents' basement. Ignorance like this is entertaining. People don't understand how many people actually get coaching. Coaching is like 99% of my salary, and I do quite a bit of it. And by quite a bit I mean quite a bit.
Yeah, this is how all the pros in WoW made money as well, selling rating/gear and playing other's chars for them. I remember some guy was payed like 80k a year from some prince somewhere to get him the gladiator titles. Prize money is not where the money is at for the most part, it's in the other things.
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Don't got any specific number, but I'm quite sure it's OVER 9000
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From what i know, pretty much all contracts have a non disclose agreement in them, so no pro will tell you publicly how much he gets from his team.
How much you make from live streaming is extremely dependant on how many viewers you get, how often/long you stream, from where the viewers are, how many commercials you play etc etc. so there will be huge differences between "pros" here too.
Maybe this is different in other countries, but in germany its pretty rude to ask someone how much he makes, unless you know him very well, and even then its kinda meh.
On May 04 2011 07:44 FatkiddsLag wrote:
could a progamer at least shed some light on how much of the prize money from a major event goes to them and how much of it goes to the team? Such as MLG, GSL, TSL ect. and major teams like Liquid, EG, Dignitas, ect.
This differs from team to team.. so there is no general answer to this. Even inside a team there can be different contracts, where one player can keep all the prizemoney, and another has to give some to the team. In my team (Alternate) we can keep all the prizemoney, but i know of teams where this isnt the case. No clue whether this is common knowledge, though.
Anyway, overall there are huge differences in income between the players, and pretty big variance over time for a single player, depending on his performance/luck and other factors.
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On May 04 2011 17:02 DarKFoRcE wrote:From what i know, pretty much all contracts have a non disclose agreement in them, so no pro will tell you publicly how much he gets from his team. How much you make from live streaming is extremely dependant on how many viewers you get, how often/long you stream, from where the viewers are, how many commercials you play etc etc. so there will be huge differences between "pros" here too. Maybe this is different in other countries, but in germany its pretty rude to ask someone how much he makes, unless you know him very well, and even then its kinda meh. Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 07:44 FatkiddsLag wrote:
could a progamer at least shed some light on how much of the prize money from a major event goes to them and how much of it goes to the team? Such as MLG, GSL, TSL ect. and major teams like Liquid, EG, Dignitas, ect. This differs from team to team.. so there is no general answer to this. Even inside a team there can be different contracts, where one player can keep all the prizemoney, and another has to give some to the team. In my team (Alternate) we can keep all the prizemoney, but i know of teams where this isnt the case. No clue whether this is common knowledge, though.
It's not exactly bad manners to ask for ranges for particular jobs, at least around where I'm from. Although to expect a particular salary would be bad taste, and you're not going to get much more than "i do well for myself, someone in my job makes 50-70k, etc." it's really only bad taste to talk about this type of stuff with coworkers.
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On May 04 2011 17:09 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:02 DarKFoRcE wrote:From what i know, pretty much all contracts have a non disclose agreement in them, so no pro will tell you publicly how much he gets from his team. How much you make from live streaming is extremely dependant on how many viewers you get, how often/long you stream, from where the viewers are, how many commercials you play etc etc. so there will be huge differences between "pros" here too. Maybe this is different in other countries, but in germany its pretty rude to ask someone how much he makes, unless you know him very well, and even then its kinda meh. On May 04 2011 07:44 FatkiddsLag wrote:
could a progamer at least shed some light on how much of the prize money from a major event goes to them and how much of it goes to the team? Such as MLG, GSL, TSL ect. and major teams like Liquid, EG, Dignitas, ect. This differs from team to team.. so there is no general answer to this. Even inside a team there can be different contracts, where one player can keep all the prizemoney, and another has to give some to the team. In my team (Alternate) we can keep all the prizemoney, but i know of teams where this isnt the case. No clue whether this is common knowledge, though. It's not exactly bad manners to ask for ranges for particular jobs, at least around where I'm from. Although to expect a particular salary would be bad taste, and you're not going to get much more than "i do well for myself, someone in my job makes 50-70k, etc." it's really only bad taste to talk about this type of stuff with coworkers.
Well ok, as i said, i think there are actually quite large differences between cultures when it comes to this... what might be acceptable in the US might not be in another country.
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On May 04 2011 16:27 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:02 David451 wrote:
If you're thinking pro-gaming is a good way to make money, newsflash, unless you're the best of the best, you're going to be living in your parents' basement. Ignorance like this is entertaining. People don't understand how many people actually get coaching. Coaching is like 99% of my salary, and I do quite a bit of it. And by quite a bit I mean quite a bit.
Ya this is how pro's should/do make their real consistant money. Tournaments are simply a means to show people that they are worth the money you are paying them.
Minigun isn't even a fraction of what some pro's charge for lessons, and even he gets 40$ an hour.
Some1 tell me a job that pays you 40$ an hour without a college degree? Not saying he doesnt have one... he might idk. But my point is most of these players (for sure i at least know iNcontroL is) are booked for entire months in advance. If minigun just gives 2 hours of lessons per day (and they most likely do more than that when they do lessons. tho i know they usually are all crammed into a weekend or on weeknights. But even then he only needs to do 20 hours of lessons a week to make over $40,000 a year not including sponsorship money, salary money (if they get it), tournament winnings, etc.
They make enough to do what they love. They make enough to be able to play SC2 24-7 and not have to worry about school/work and can still afford their lifestyle.
Are players becoming millionaires off of SC2 ? No. Is it the greatest amount of money possible, for 90% of the players, no. They would make more getting their degree and getting a boring office job.... but they are getting paid to fucking play SC2...
It just comes down to what lifestyle you choose.
I wouldn't worry about their finances tbh. (n2m when your a 20 yr old bachelor u can split an apartment with 3 teammates and you are only spending 1000 a month MAX on rent/bills per person which is EASY to cover with lessons.
and with streams giving revenue for viewers... you dont even have to be talented at SC2 to make some spending money off of that... you just have to convince people that are talented to hang out with you.. *cough JP *cough
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On May 04 2011 16:27 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:02 David451 wrote:
If you're thinking pro-gaming is a good way to make money, newsflash, unless you're the best of the best, you're going to be living in your parents' basement. Ignorance like this is entertaining. People don't understand how many people actually get coaching. Coaching is like 99% of my salary, and I do quite a bit of it. And by quite a bit I mean quite a bit.
Arent you on team ROOT, one of the best teams in the world? Yeah...
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On May 04 2011 19:12 David451 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:27 Minigun wrote:On May 04 2011 16:02 David451 wrote:
If you're thinking pro-gaming is a good way to make money, newsflash, unless you're the best of the best, you're going to be living in your parents' basement. Ignorance like this is entertaining. People don't understand how many people actually get coaching. Coaching is like 99% of my salary, and I do quite a bit of it. And by quite a bit I mean quite a bit. Arent you on team ROOT, one of the best teams in the world? Yeah...
I find it quite interesting that people can pay 40$ for lessons and some up to $150 (IDRA?)
Hmmm a lot of things you don't need IdrA to teach - like basic micro and macro...
Also just watch Brood War replays (you learn heaps trust me), watch SCII pro replays and take some notes with a notebook, learn to use the pause button and see what people are doing... note it down... create a poster for each MU and put on it a timescale, then write down all the timings. If you have a good friend, you two can both learn builds and try timing attacks against each other, work out strats. Ofcourse your average joe would never do all of the above (I certainly don't), but it'll save you a lot of money :p
That said, asking a pro to teach you is like a more time-efficient way and your learning curve is a lot steeper.
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On May 04 2011 19:12 David451 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 16:27 Minigun wrote:On May 04 2011 16:02 David451 wrote:
If you're thinking pro-gaming is a good way to make money, newsflash, unless you're the best of the best, you're going to be living in your parents' basement. Ignorance like this is entertaining. People don't understand how many people actually get coaching. Coaching is like 99% of my salary, and I do quite a bit of it. And by quite a bit I mean quite a bit. Arent you on team ROOT, one of the best teams in the world? Yeah...
I wouldn't say Root is one of the best teams in the world. But coaching as he says is the largest part of his Salary and thats the same for pros these days par some
edit; @JesusOurSaviour Idra's lesson cost $300/hr now it's crazy but if it works it works.
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seems like comparing lawyers, engineers and progamers isint really appropriate although some of the progamers may have the ability to reach those goals. comparing gaming to art or entertainment seems much more reasonable. within that category of professions most people are willing to make alot less to do what they love than work regular type jobs.
also the college oriented job market for young people doesnt seem to be doing the best at the moment. i have 3 friends my age who graduated college and dont have jobs related to their degrees, 1 who graduated in marketing and is self employed and the person i know who is below 30 and making the most money is a welder who didint graduate high school. doesnt seem like a particularily bad time to do what you love.
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You'd think someone with a marketing degree would learn what the word marketable means. Point being their are all sorts of trash majors and all sorts of GPAs out there that give you nothing but debt and a place to waste your time. I see it everyday. You're right they should try gaming or welding. OTOH if you do well and choose wisely you'll have no problems even in this economy. I can only speak to accounting which I study and the big 5 accounting firms won't even look at your resume unless you have a 3.8 or above so GPA plays a part too.
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the person in marketing is actually doing fine, but starting a new business he works quite alot and hasent had big returns yet, he just got married and is family oriented. the guy welding makes 30$ an hour (45 in overtime) and works 70 hours/week and is basically not concerned with anything but making money, not everyone who welds makes 11$/hr. plus only suggested doing what your passionate about. you can make alot of money doing almost anything if your really ambitious and live a lifestyle that supports making alot of money. my friends that graduated college felt they needed to because their parents did, their not very money driven.
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I find it quite interesting that people can pay 40$ for lessons and some up to $150 (IDRA?)
Hmmm a lot of things you don't need IdrA to teach - like basic micro and macro...
Also just watch Brood War replays (you learn heaps trust me), watch SCII pro replays and take some notes with a notebook, learn to use the pause button and see what people are doing... note it down... create a poster for each MU and put on it a timescale, then write down all the timings. If you have a good friend, you two can both learn builds and try timing attacks against each other, work out strats. Ofcourse your average joe would never do all of the above (I certainly don't), but it'll save you a lot of money :p
That said, asking a pro to teach you is like a more time-efficient way and your learning curve is a lot steeper.
The reason why people pay anything for coaching is exactly the point you made in your last sentence, some just cant literally be bothered to do what you explained in your first paragraph. which can easily be taught by idra by sayin, look this is exactly where you are going wrong, problem fixed
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On May 03 2011 16:58 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 16:46 Etra wrote:
Maybe they do not want to for personal reasons and you should shut the fuck up. And what personal reason can possibly preclude their wish to release said information?
A desire for privacy.
And what personal reason can possibly compel them to release said information?
Many people are not comfortable discussing private details in public, *especially* if they are in the eye of public attention. Your average joe doesn't have forum threads dedicated to him, so he knows that whatever figure he gives you, nobody will care that *he* said it, and people won't walk around quoting his posts for months to come.
Also, in many cultures it is simply considered rude to explicitly ask for specific personal financial information unless you are very close to the person you are asking.
You don't feel like that? Fine. That does not mean that everyone is like you.
In the part of Europe I live in, people do not publicly talk about their salaries, and asking someone directly would be considered rude -- even asking them indirectly in public would be an affront.
You may not understand it why people are uncomfortable discussing it, but that doesn't mean they aren't. I wouldn't be comfortable, and it's not because I feel like I make "too much" -- it's simply none of your business.
I also don't feel comfortable giving out my home address to random people on the internet, and unlike my salary, my home address is actually public information.
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On May 04 2011 17:09 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:02 DarKFoRcE wrote:From what i know, pretty much all contracts have a non disclose agreement in them, so no pro will tell you publicly how much he gets from his team. How much you make from live streaming is extremely dependant on how many viewers you get, how often/long you stream, from where the viewers are, how many commercials you play etc etc. so there will be huge differences between "pros" here too. Maybe this is different in other countries, but in germany its pretty rude to ask someone how much he makes, unless you know him very well, and even then its kinda meh. On May 04 2011 07:44 FatkiddsLag wrote:
could a progamer at least shed some light on how much of the prize money from a major event goes to them and how much of it goes to the team? Such as MLG, GSL, TSL ect. and major teams like Liquid, EG, Dignitas, ect. This differs from team to team.. so there is no general answer to this. Even inside a team there can be different contracts, where one player can keep all the prizemoney, and another has to give some to the team. In my team (Alternate) we can keep all the prizemoney, but i know of teams where this isnt the case. No clue whether this is common knowledge, though. It's not exactly bad manners to ask for ranges for particular jobs, at least around where I'm from. Although to expect a particular salary would be bad taste, and you're not going to get much more than "i do well for myself, someone in my job makes 50-70k, etc." it's really only bad taste to talk about this type of stuff with coworkers.
The US is particularly open about discussing salaries, this is not the case for central Europe. Even asking ranges for particular jobs is kinda meh, *especially* if it's someone who is asking you personally (it's fine for an anonymous post on the internet asking out of curiosity).
And here, it's not bad taste to talk about this with coworkers at all; coworkers are pretty much the only people I'd feel comfortable with about discussing salary ranges.
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I wish people were mature enough to handle this kind of discussion, but I've seen how people across these intarwebz act, and I feel like players releasing a whole bunch of personal information about earnings could lead to a lot of bickering/arguing.
That being said, I personally think that in a group full of mature members, conversations about salaries and the flow of money could be healthy, and maybe even necessary in some cases.
Ack, I was going to write out a whole bunch of examples where understanding where all the money is being distributed would generate a lot of interesting/insightful discussion, but I'm far too tired for that.
That being said, I'm a very big proponent of high transparency, and I think that if people feel confident/good about what they're doing, there shouldn't be any problems with discussing your salary. Others feel uncomfortable, though, so, to each their own.
For JTV streams, I'm pretty sure the figure is 0.2 cents per ad per viewer ($0.002/ad/viewer), and people who are using ad-block (or people in certain countries, for some reason) don't count towards that figure. For people who are interested, here's a clip of my last month's earnings -
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Czb0D.png)
Unfortunately, from the 22nd to the 27th there was an error with reporting ad revenue so for some reason the entire day pretty much didn't write correctly, but otherwise, I think that provides a decent estimate of what someone can make streaming. That being said, I stream for quite a few hours at a time, and I can hold ~3k viewers. You could still make a decent amount of money (far more than what I used to think possible) with even 500 viewers for 6 hours a day. Even a few hundred dollars a month is more money than most people would ever think possible from streaming.
I can try to answer any questions, but I don't know specifics in terms of contracts from other people or teams, so it's hard to say what salaries are like.
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Your transparency is probably what wins you so many fans Destiny.
Thanks for the info/insight!
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Thanks for the info and insight with that post Destiny.
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16952 Posts
On May 04 2011 20:58 tdt wrote:
You'd think someone with a marketing degree would learn what the word marketable means. Point being their are all sorts of trash majors and all sorts of GPAs out there that give you nothing but debt and a place to waste your time. I see it everyday. You're right they should try gaming or welding. OTOH if you do well and choose wisely you'll have no problems even in this economy. I can only speak to accounting which I study and the big 5 accounting firms won't even look at your resume unless you have a 3.8 or above so GPA plays a part too.
Big 4 now. Enron ruined Arthur Andersen :<
EDIT: Fuck, sorry for off topic post X_X
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Maybe its because I was brought up in a society where it is rude to ask people how much money they earn but this is just so hypocritical from many of you.
How many of you would tell us your yearly income if asked? Let alone break it down into the specifics of how much you make from each section. Would you want thousands of people knowing how much you make. I know I wouldn't because what i make is for me to know. That is why payslips always say confidential its not there to fill blank space. It is because that shit is private.
I guess due to the fact these people are 'athletes' and most athletes among other sports are transparent in regards to their salaries doesn't mean that the athletes within the sc2 scene should have to be just because you expect it from other people. Speculate away but don't make it out that it is your right to know how much a SC2 pro makes.
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On May 04 2011 21:29 bmn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 17:09 BluePanther wrote:On May 04 2011 17:02 DarKFoRcE wrote:From what i know, pretty much all contracts have a non disclose agreement in them, so no pro will tell you publicly how much he gets from his team. How much you make from live streaming is extremely dependant on how many viewers you get, how often/long you stream, from where the viewers are, how many commercials you play etc etc. so there will be huge differences between "pros" here too. Maybe this is different in other countries, but in germany its pretty rude to ask someone how much he makes, unless you know him very well, and even then its kinda meh. On May 04 2011 07:44 FatkiddsLag wrote:
could a progamer at least shed some light on how much of the prize money from a major event goes to them and how much of it goes to the team? Such as MLG, GSL, TSL ect. and major teams like Liquid, EG, Dignitas, ect. This differs from team to team.. so there is no general answer to this. Even inside a team there can be different contracts, where one player can keep all the prizemoney, and another has to give some to the team. In my team (Alternate) we can keep all the prizemoney, but i know of teams where this isnt the case. No clue whether this is common knowledge, though. It's not exactly bad manners to ask for ranges for particular jobs, at least around where I'm from. Although to expect a particular salary would be bad taste, and you're not going to get much more than "i do well for myself, someone in my job makes 50-70k, etc." it's really only bad taste to talk about this type of stuff with coworkers. The US is particularly open about discussing salaries, this is not the case for central Europe. Even asking ranges for particular jobs is kinda meh, *especially* if it's someone who is asking you personally (it's fine for an anonymous post on the internet asking out of curiosity). And here, it's not bad taste to talk about this with coworkers at all; coworkers are pretty much the only people I'd feel comfortable with about discussing salary ranges.
That hasn't been my experience living in the US...
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On May 05 2011 02:04 andy186 wrote:
Maybe its because I was brought up in a society where it is rude to ask people how much money they earn but this is just so hypocritical from many of you.
How many of you would tell us your yearly income if asked? Let alone break it down into the specifics of how much you make from each section. Would you want thousands of people knowing how much you make. I know I wouldn't because what i make is for me to know. That is why payslips always say confidential its not there to fill blank space. It is because that shit is private.
Personally, I don't mind getting asked that question. It's not that big of a thing in my opinion. Part of having a comfortable life isn't just making a big sum of money, but also living within your means and managing your money correctly. I know a few people that make $100k+ a year, but are still miserable because their money is "never enough." They are terrible at managing their spending and living within their means.
On May 05 2011 02:57 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 21:29 bmn wrote:On May 04 2011 17:09 BluePanther wrote:On May 04 2011 17:02 DarKFoRcE wrote:From what i know, pretty much all contracts have a non disclose agreement in them, so no pro will tell you publicly how much he gets from his team. How much you make from live streaming is extremely dependant on how many viewers you get, how often/long you stream, from where the viewers are, how many commercials you play etc etc. so there will be huge differences between "pros" here too. Maybe this is different in other countries, but in germany its pretty rude to ask someone how much he makes, unless you know him very well, and even then its kinda meh. On May 04 2011 07:44 FatkiddsLag wrote:
could a progamer at least shed some light on how much of the prize money from a major event goes to them and how much of it goes to the team? Such as MLG, GSL, TSL ect. and major teams like Liquid, EG, Dignitas, ect. This differs from team to team.. so there is no general answer to this. Even inside a team there can be different contracts, where one player can keep all the prizemoney, and another has to give some to the team. In my team (Alternate) we can keep all the prizemoney, but i know of teams where this isnt the case. No clue whether this is common knowledge, though. It's not exactly bad manners to ask for ranges for particular jobs, at least around where I'm from. Although to expect a particular salary would be bad taste, and you're not going to get much more than "i do well for myself, someone in my job makes 50-70k, etc." it's really only bad taste to talk about this type of stuff with coworkers. The US is particularly open about discussing salaries, this is not the case for central Europe. Even asking ranges for particular jobs is kinda meh, *especially* if it's someone who is asking you personally (it's fine for an anonymous post on the internet asking out of curiosity). And here, it's not bad taste to talk about this with coworkers at all; coworkers are pretty much the only people I'd feel comfortable with about discussing salary ranges. That hasn't been my experience living in the US...
Not really the same here. People from my generation (I'm 21), typically don't mind talking about salary and how much they make. Other generations, specifically the older generations, are more hush hush about what they make. My dad, for example, won't tell anyone but the family how much he makes. He's even told me to never tell anyone how much he makes. He's really private about that type of thing.
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**EDIT thought Steven said it was 2cents not .2 cents** jesus christ people stop saying the same shit i already noticed and has been pointing out. my math wasnt incorrect, my numbers were.
He is getting $26 per commercial. If he shows 1 commercial every 10 mins he gets $156.. Not a terrible hourly wage imo for just playing Sc2 not even practising or coaching
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On May 05 2011 04:12 MaestroSC wrote:
Just doing the math on Idra and his stream, along with the incredibly helpful information from Mr Steven Bonnell II, Greg has 8000 viewers, he gets .02 per vier per commercial. he is getting $160 per commercial he shows atm.
If he streams for even an Hour he will show 6-10 commercials. he is going to make over $1,000 in this one hour at a MINIMUM. Not to mention his tournament winnings... I would love to see the records of Greg's financials.
Math, please. It's .2 cents or $0.002. $16 per commercial.
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On May 05 2011 04:12 MaestroSC wrote:
Just doing the math on Idra and his stream, along with the incredibly helpful information from Mr Steven Bonnell II, Greg has 8000 viewers, he gets .02 per vier per commercial. he is getting $160 per commercial he shows atm.
If he streams for even an Hour he will show 6-10 commercials. he is going to make over $1,000 in this one hour at a MINIMUM. Not to mention his tournament winnings... I would love to see the records of Greg's financials.
Numbers were based on 8k viewers he now has almos 13k viewers... so much $$
The number was .2 cents, so .002. Idra would make $16 from each commercial with 8000 viewers, not $160. Big difference, but $16 per commercial just for streaming games is pretty sweet.
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On May 05 2011 04:16 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:12 MaestroSC wrote:
Just doing the math on Idra and his stream, along with the incredibly helpful information from Mr Steven Bonnell II, Greg has 8000 viewers, he gets .02 per vier per commercial. he is getting $160 per commercial he shows atm.
If he streams for even an Hour he will show 6-10 commercials. he is going to make over $1,000 in this one hour at a MINIMUM. Not to mention his tournament winnings... I would love to see the records of Greg's financials. Math, please. It's .2 cents or $0.002. $16 per commercial.
..not everyone in the stream gets the ad..eventhough it has been said in this thread too i'm sure.
adblock , region and stuff
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On May 05 2011 04:16 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:12 MaestroSC wrote:
Just doing the math on Idra and his stream, along with the incredibly helpful information from Mr Steven Bonnell II, Greg has 8000 viewers, he gets .02 per vier per commercial. he is getting $160 per commercial he shows atm.
If he streams for even an Hour he will show 6-10 commercials. he is going to make over $1,000 in this one hour at a MINIMUM. Not to mention his tournament winnings... I would love to see the records of Greg's financials. Math, please. It's .2 cents or $0.002. $16 per commercial.
The guy his math was correct. He was using wrong data though.
Even though this thread was a great read, and Incontrol shouldn't be trolling it. However, I don't think he thought the thread would be alive for this long.
I guess there is some interest from me as well how much gamers earn.
I would appreciate it if there was some ballpark we could look at.
If I would think with my ass I would say something like and I think there are around 5 000 people who play Starcraft 2 without other income and are over 18:
Top 0.3%: 100.000 p/y (With the Top Koreans really on top)
Top 1%: 75.000 p/y (I don't really know how much a decent Korean teamplayer (Code S) earns but I guess around this)
Top 5%: 20.000 p/y (Again, a lot Koreans but I guess a decent amount of NA/EU players.)
Top 10% 5.000 p/y
I am only counting coaching, commercials, team contract and tournament winnings.
I am not counting Youtube, casting jobs, private sponsors, donations, etc.
DISCLAIMER: I am talking out of my ass but I "feel" this could be right somehow.
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On May 05 2011 04:35 Tin_Foil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:12 MaestroSC wrote:
Just doing the math on Idra and his stream, along with the incredibly helpful information from Mr Steven Bonnell II, Greg has 8000 viewers, he gets .02 per vier per commercial. he is getting $160 per commercial he shows atm.
If he streams for even an Hour he will show 6-10 commercials. he is going to make over $1,000 in this one hour at a MINIMUM. Not to mention his tournament winnings... I would love to see the records of Greg's financials.
Numbers were based on 8k viewers he now has almos 13k viewers... so much $$ The number was .2 cents, so .002. Idra would make $16 from each commercial with 8000 viewers, not $160. Big difference, but $16 per commercial just for streaming games is pretty sweet.
ya i only glanced at Destiny's post so i thought it was 2cents per ad per view but after i thought about it i was thinkin that was way too high and there is no way he gets 2cents per ad per view.
But stil he is making 160 an hour just to stream ladder matches... not a bad deal at all for him. (or for us his insight is actually amazingly in-depth and its like getting a peek of his sc2 mind and the strategy/analysis he has of every minute detail. very very interesting)
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On May 05 2011 04:38 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:35 Tin_Foil wrote:On May 05 2011 04:12 MaestroSC wrote:
Just doing the math on Idra and his stream, along with the incredibly helpful information from Mr Steven Bonnell II, Greg has 8000 viewers, he gets .02 per vier per commercial. he is getting $160 per commercial he shows atm.
If he streams for even an Hour he will show 6-10 commercials. he is going to make over $1,000 in this one hour at a MINIMUM. Not to mention his tournament winnings... I would love to see the records of Greg's financials.
Numbers were based on 8k viewers he now has almos 13k viewers... so much $$ The number was .2 cents, so .002. Idra would make $16 from each commercial with 8000 viewers, not $160. Big difference, but $16 per commercial just for streaming games is pretty sweet. ya i only glanced at Destiny's post so i thought it was 2cents per ad per view but after i thought about it i was thinkin that was way too high and there is no way he gets 2cents per ad per view. But stil he is making 160 an hour just to stream ladder matches... not a bad deal at all for him. (or for us his insight is actually amazingly in-depth and its like getting a peek of his sc2 mind and the strategy/analysis he has of every minute detail. very very interesting)
He doesn't make anywhere near 160/hour... You have to realize he's streaming for 12+ hours on some of those days were he made $300/..
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On May 04 2011 09:37 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 09:30 mooshoo wrote:On May 03 2011 17:18 IdrA wrote:On May 03 2011 16:54 Holcan wrote:On May 03 2011 16:26 5unrise wrote:On May 03 2011 08:16 Holcan wrote:
good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less. What's your evidence? Or just reasoning even? Don't just pull numbers off your ass and expect people to believe a year of managing a sponorship seeking sc2 team 2 years of managing a sponsor seeking wc3 team 5 years of administrative work on the semi professional level in wc3, so I was in constant contact with players like Empire.Kas, Thorzain, etc. I dont care if you believe me or not, but my numbers are the closest you are going to get in this thread. 'sponsorship seeking' the people who actually found sponsors might have a better idea of what kind of money is there. Since this thread is all based off speculation on loose facts, I will continue the trend with my own speculation. Idra's response seems to be discrediting Holcan's analysis of how much a pro makes per year. My assumption is that Idra wouldn't imply Holcan is wrong about his estimate of salaries if pros were actually making less than the estimated salaries because that is just self deprecating. Thus, I am concluding that pro SCII gamers actually make more than the estimates of Holcan. The part that I think that was most unlikely about Holcan's estimates is that NA pros make the same or less than what people make at Mcdonalds. That's just bullshit. 12-18k a year is bullshit? how much do you think people deserve to play video games? Like honestly? Do you think Axslav should get 1k a a month for what he does, plus travelling fees? How about ROOT Gaming that doesnt even have sponsors and pay travel fees out of their own pocket? Its not bullshit, sorry for putting a realistic perspective on the scenario. If you worked a full time job at mcdonalds, you would be making the same, if not more money than the average north american pro gamer.
Dude working working 6 hours a day with a wage of $10 (thats how much it is where I live) would only get you around 20k and u get free food so no food expenses I guess. Destiny earns more than that streaming a fair bit every hour and he can live off streaming alone since its around 30k a year. Players like Idra,MC with sponsors and coaching earn WAY more so stop disrespecting pro gamers just cause your mommy wouldn't let you play past your bedtime.
Do people who play sports or models REALLY deserve millions of dollars for what they do? no they dont but the public is willing to pay them that much. If starcraft was more popular then the entertainers of sc2 (the players and casters) would earn more. Its the law of supply and demand. if the supply of gamers cannot keep up with demand them the people will earn fuck tons of money.
By the way. Even if working at mcdonalds earned you the same or more money (which it doesnt) you are working at Mcdonalds. no one respects you
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Hellspawn wrote:
Tournament money
The best tip that I have to you as a fan is to have the view of prize money as a bonus to the player. If you think that a player can live on only prize money then think again. It is way too risky and as already mentioned in this thread it's only a few (20-30) that even earn that much money in the world. Also worth remembering is that it's not uncommon that tournaments isn't paying out prize money or at least that the money isn't paid out for a very long time. Nothing you can rely on when you going to pay your rent. It should be said that it seem to get better and better and also that the prize money are increasing per player. I should also mention that it' not uncommon that teams take a cut of the prize money. Some do and some don't, teams can take up to 30% and it has occasionally happen that organizations take all the prize money to cover the traveling costs.
Isn't that more of a Counter Strike issue? Is this also happening in SC2?
PS. Has MC gotten his money for the win @ Dreamhack Stockholm inv.?
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On May 03 2011 13:53 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 13:40 Chill wrote:On May 03 2011 12:55 Joementum wrote:On May 03 2011 12:02 iNcontroL wrote:
fun thread but so far this has been a bunch of people that have absolutely no idea judging/speculating on the salaries of players based on what Destiny said in an interview and what IdrA charges for coaching.
btw he charges that much not because he is in that high of demand but because he doesn't want to coach.. unless someone pays him tremendously. Why not shed some light on it then instead of saying "LOL noobs speculating?" Otherwise, just let us speculate. There's only one player we know of and it's Destiny since he's come out and said how much he makes. Agreed. There is no way to come off as good talking about how much you make playing sc2. And it's just not a good idea.
That statement is so 'matter of fact' and smacks of an unwillingness to consider the idea that it is possible to 'come off' okay on the topic of gamers and money. Let me reassure you that there is another reality out there beyond the trolls...one where transparency and disclosure garners respect and trust from others (or those that *should* matter anyway). For example, I don't mind that gamers are making money while I have to work a regular job...I even disable my ad-blocker when I watch streams (yours included). I buy season passes to the major tournaments and occasionally participate in a constructive conversation on TL. If you are worried that the trolls can't handle it, then I have to ask...why do you even care?
As a reference point for my frustration and the driving reason behind my post I am going to cite a recent conversation between you and Tyler. I expect you already know where I am going. On a recent episode of SoTG, Tyler was defending the need for disclosure and honesty in support of his position on a particular topic. In turn, you drew heavily on your background in debate and a mastery of the English language and rebutted his point by calling him a stupid mother f-er (among other things). On one hand I should consider the benefits of openness and disclosure and on the other hand I should consider that he is, in fact, a stupid mother f-er. I was torn.
I made a decision though. I'm going to chew Stride gum, and I do give a shit.
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I think transparency is a good thing. I think Teamliquid lacks it a lot, TBH, but, that's just my opinion. I don't see how more transparency can hurt any part of the SC2 scene.
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Denying transparency would generally come down to feelings of jealousy or inadequacy for most adolescents.
The aspect of keeping things under wraps has generally been stipulated in a lot of eSports contracts outside of the StarCraft realm, whether through Quake or Counter-Strike etc..., because the organizations then have the power to take advantage. Now, not all organizations are like this, but I've seen a few pretty one-sided contracts that players have signed, and I think that's where a lot of it starts.
Once people can be held accountable through said transparency, and the field can be leveled in terms of support, among other things, it will go a long way to increasing the potential of eSports in general.
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Way too negative tone in this thread. ESPORTs in the west has a potential to become very lucrative. Marketing to the fanbase is still quite untapped and events keep filling up with very little exposure outside of enthusiast sites.
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People always forget that .2 cents does not equal .2$, it's rather surprising. but ya math isn't something you want to do when searching forums?
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On May 05 2011 20:58 vdek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 04:38 MaestroSC wrote:On May 05 2011 04:35 Tin_Foil wrote:On May 05 2011 04:12 MaestroSC wrote:
Just doing the math on Idra and his stream, along with the incredibly helpful information from Mr Steven Bonnell II, Greg has 8000 viewers, he gets .02 per vier per commercial. he is getting $160 per commercial he shows atm.
If he streams for even an Hour he will show 6-10 commercials. he is going to make over $1,000 in this one hour at a MINIMUM. Not to mention his tournament winnings... I would love to see the records of Greg's financials.
Numbers were based on 8k viewers he now has almos 13k viewers... so much $$ The number was .2 cents, so .002. Idra would make $16 from each commercial with 8000 viewers, not $160. Big difference, but $16 per commercial just for streaming games is pretty sweet. ya i only glanced at Destiny's post so i thought it was 2cents per ad per view but after i thought about it i was thinkin that was way too high and there is no way he gets 2cents per ad per view. But stil he is making 160 an hour just to stream ladder matches... not a bad deal at all for him. (or for us his insight is actually amazingly in-depth and its like getting a peek of his sc2 mind and the strategy/analysis he has of every minute detail. very very interesting) He doesn't make anywhere near 160/hour... You have to realize he's streaming for 12+ hours on some of those days were he made $300/..
Idra had 14k viewers last time i watched his stream. he gets .002 per viewer per ad. So he was getting 28$ per commercial. If she shows 1 commercial every 10 minutes he will get 168 per hour roughly...
How is this false?
I didnt say Destiny was making 160 an hour i said Idra was at the time i did the math streaming to 14k viewers and for those 3 hours had the potential of making 160 an hour.
and to the people who are still feeling intelligent when they point out .2 cents is not .02 thank you for not reading and comprehending because it clearly states the math was done assuming he got 2CENTS (NOT .2 cents) per ad per viewer. The post was simply read wrong be4 the data was put into the problem... ffs get off your high horses and stop feeling like you are boasting to the world about ur mad math skills and their lacking of
And why Pro's like incontrol arent saying what they make as SC2 programers/personalities: because they dont want to get:
A. accused of just using esports to cash-in.
B. be told that their choice of career is a waste of time compared to something else
C. because if they make good money or bad money people will still be upset about what they read
D. its not really any1 else's business.
It is a lose lose if they post what they make as people will take it wrong no matter what.
Unless you are Destiny who just says "IDGAF what any of you people think hoenstly." which is a great attitude for some but not every1's attitude
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It's difficult for anybody to discuss how much they make per year and not come off as a douche. Stating a dollar amount immediately creates a need to compare salaries and argue that someone is making too much or too little; it's why people don't discuss salaries in the workplace.
All you need to know is that pro-gamers who don't have another job make enough money so that they don't feel like they need another job to support themselves.
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On May 07 2011 06:42 MaestroSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 20:58 vdek wrote:On May 05 2011 04:38 MaestroSC wrote:On May 05 2011 04:35 Tin_Foil wrote:On May 05 2011 04:12 MaestroSC wrote:
Just doing the math on Idra and his stream, along with the incredibly helpful information from Mr Steven Bonnell II, Greg has 8000 viewers, he gets .02 per vier per commercial. he is getting $160 per commercial he shows atm.
If he streams for even an Hour he will show 6-10 commercials. he is going to make over $1,000 in this one hour at a MINIMUM. Not to mention his tournament winnings... I would love to see the records of Greg's financials.
Numbers were based on 8k viewers he now has almos 13k viewers... so much $$ The number was .2 cents, so .002. Idra would make $16 from each commercial with 8000 viewers, not $160. Big difference, but $16 per commercial just for streaming games is pretty sweet. ya i only glanced at Destiny's post so i thought it was 2cents per ad per view but after i thought about it i was thinkin that was way too high and there is no way he gets 2cents per ad per view. But stil he is making 160 an hour just to stream ladder matches... not a bad deal at all for him. (or for us his insight is actually amazingly in-depth and its like getting a peek of his sc2 mind and the strategy/analysis he has of every minute detail. very very interesting) He doesn't make anywhere near 160/hour... You have to realize he's streaming for 12+ hours on some of those days were he made $300/.. Idra had 14k viewers last time i watched his stream. he gets .002 per viewer per ad. So he was getting 28$ per commercial. If she shows 1 commercial every 10 minutes he will get 168 per hour roughly... How is this false?
The commercials are region-specific. Some get them, some don't. Factors in the ad-blockers and you arrive at $300 per day (or so he claimed).
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most salaries for players are pretty low like 200-800$ a month and some aren't even paid, but then you have the icons like grubby/idra who get paid $2k+ a month pretty much just for name value.
Anyone who gets paid to play this game doesn't do it because of the money
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I find this topic very interesting (to the point of reading most of this thread). The reason for that is because progamers' incomes really do matter to me as a spectator. It affects e-sports, it affects the player pool, it affects my view of the SC2 progaming scene - I find it quite important. Really, I'm surprised the information is utterly unavailable...
A more specific question directed at Destiny -> would you mind elaborating on how Justin.tv specifically handles ad revenue based on the viewer's country? It'd be great to know how it really works and I suppose you must have access to that kind of information, seeing as you stream so much. Thanks!
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I think two of the best posts are Hellspawns (Dreamhack admin) and Destinys (Professional streamer).
Basically conclusions are:
- The clans are not paying players much except travels to some lan-events and a barely surviveable salary (200€+).
- Personal sponsoring and sponsoring of equipment are becoming pretty common for the best players and teams, Economy in this is unknown.
- Pricemoney earned is very much a gamble for most players and generally not in itself sustainable except somewhat in code S of GSL.
- There is a market for lessons and if the income is 30 $ pr. hour you need about 40 lessons of 1 hour each month to make it about the level of streaming for 1000 viewers (that is quite a lot actually)!
- A more stable source of income (surprisingly) seems to be streaming on justin.tv. +1000 viewers constantly and it could be sustainable with ads ($1200+/month)!
Easiest source seems to be streaming, but reaching 1000+ viewers will be a though task without making yourself a name elsewhere.
Lessons might be the second string. Again you need to make a name for yourself before you can do that.
Pricemoney is a gamble and takes a lot of effort, luck and skill to gain. Ironically, however, winning good pricemoney may make you known enough to give lessons or stream for money!
Personal sponsors seems to be only for the absolute top. Sponsored equipment is however more broadly known from CS and other e-sports.
Clans are good deals for players uncertain of if they can make it. They in most cases give some security primarily.
Basically the summary is: Start winning tournaments or make a name for yourself in another way and you get a lot more possibilities. Only then it might be a true question for you if you want to get into it fulltime.
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On May 07 2011 07:34 Aravan wrote:
I find this topic very interesting (to the point of reading most of this thread). The reason for that is because progamers' incomes really do matter to me as a spectator. It affects e-sports, it affects the player pool, it affects my view of the SC2 progaming scene - I find it quite important. Really, I'm surprised the information is utterly unavailable...
A more specific question directed at Destiny -> would you mind elaborating on how Justin.tv specifically handles ad revenue based on the viewer's country? It'd be great to know how it really works and I suppose you must have access to that kind of information, seeing as you stream so much. Thanks!
I'm not entirely sure how the ads differ based on country, whether the impressions pay the same or what not, unfortunately. I've never dug that deep before.
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Currently, sc2 pro player salaries are widely going to be based on speculation + limited information (from players like destiny). However, what I can say about team sponsorships is:
my brother had an IRL friend on EG's Counter Strike 1.6 team, and he mentioned that he was SALARIED at $80k/yr~. Now note that CS =/= sc2 so it is more than likely that salaries are different. However, once again, one could assume that say the salary of strifcro =/= salary of idra.
The thread is indeed very interesting though, and yes it seems some people are being slightly intrusive but part of what makes SPECTATOR-sports(meaning sports, e-sports, the works) big is "how much money people make" [for example my irl friend that is very good at soccer/keeps up with it mentions how xx makes "this many million a year" and this ref got $50k for reffing just 1 game] although it shouldn't play a factor it does and always will--money makes the world go round.
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Read most of the thread. I wish at least ball-park figures for salaries and the like would have been given, but I really appreciate Bonnell showing his graph of earnings.
It's crazy to think how much IdrA would make from streaming if he streamed more. With his commentary he's racking up over 15k viewers.
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It's funny people talking about a yearly salary for streamers and other people who've not even done it for a year.
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Streaming is $2 for 1,000 viewers per commercial. There are a lot of weird maths going on in this thread. It's really simple. If you have 4,000 viewers you get $8 per commercial. A commercial after every game (20 minute games) is 3 commercials an hour, or $24 per hour. Which is a decent amount of money considering streaming is supplementary to practicing for tournaments (real income) and coaching (real income).
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Tournaments should never be considered as income though, people living from tournament money is not a sustainable situation. Then again streaming/coaching probably won't be in the long run either except for prehaps a couple of people. Not really worth discussing 'What do pro's earn' then cite very specific examples like Destiny.
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On May 03 2011 08:26 Drlemur wrote:This is a great site. But look how quick the money drops off. By #20, it's only $15,500, which isn't really livable. But I think in tourney sports that's not uncommon. Not that many golfers make that much in prize money per year either, they make it on endorsements. But live streaming is a cool game-only thing. If they get 1 penny per viewer per ad, a 3k viewer commercial is worth $30 and you can earn a bit. If it's .1 cents per viewer per ad, that's only $3 and it's barely going to pay for beer. I wonder.
15,500 is a lot to live on. you should check on what the real cost of living is and then make your statements.know that ppl live of a less that 15,500.
now on to the OP i really think their main income would come from sponsorships and coaching. and like stated before me the coaching depends on the person and i've seen idra's rates and they are ridiculous. It makes sense for him to have them so high as he is in high demand but damn........ who would pay that much for coaching?
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On May 07 2011 09:29 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 07:34 Aravan wrote:
I find this topic very interesting (to the point of reading most of this thread). The reason for that is because progamers' incomes really do matter to me as a spectator. It affects e-sports, it affects the player pool, it affects my view of the SC2 progaming scene - I find it quite important. Really, I'm surprised the information is utterly unavailable...
A more specific question directed at Destiny -> would you mind elaborating on how Justin.tv specifically handles ad revenue based on the viewer's country? It'd be great to know how it really works and I suppose you must have access to that kind of information, seeing as you stream so much. Thanks! I'm not entirely sure how the ads differ based on country, whether the impressions pay the same or what not, unfortunately. I've never dug that deep before.
Oh well, nevermind then. It's not a big deal at all, I was just curious. Thanks for taking the time to answer though .
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On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
User was warned for this post
People can get a degree and play sc2 and if you make good money it is the same as taking some years off before college if your career doesn't last that long. There is also the hope that you can stay in the community as a promoter/commentator or organizer ala day9 after your career is done and esports actually grows. Tyler sure has a legit degree and is a progamer.
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Also 1k a month is "sustainable" outside tourney costs. Shit i lived off less than that in college outside of tuition.
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And to be perfectly honest if you are dedicated you can do most college degrees and play 8 hours or so a day. I put in 5 a day playing football and got a business degree and still had a ton of freetime. So it's not like you can't do school and sc2, pretty sure nada is doing school atm and still making gsl semi's.
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On May 03 2011 08:16 Holcan wrote:
good pros: 50k-100k a year
normal pros 30-50k a year
north american pros : as much as mcdonalds pays, or less.
I have a feeling like NA Pros actually make the most out of streaming, even when they're less quality players, such as Destiny. To my knowledge (okay, which just comes from other forum threads again) he's making a significant earning from streaming, even though he could never be considered as a candidate to make it far in a well attended international tournament.
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Reading trough this thread i think theres some logical conclusions (or speculations) to some things:
1. The base salary of almost all progamers (excluding GSL winners and a few others) is basicly shit.
Most pros stream; it isnt a big effort but i would think almost anybody wouldnt take the extra time to interact with the community and exposing their playstyle if they had the financial luxury to forgo it and still make a decent living. Idra recently stated that he didnt even consider the NA ladder practice, and that it was just a way to tap into the recent trends.
Also, there is no way pros would take the time out of their schedule to teach people what they already should know. I can certainly understand the argument that anybody wants to make "a little extra on the side", but that argument seems strange and to clash with every progamers basic notion that theyre playing for love of the game and not the cash. (realize its not mutually discluding, and that some people also seem to like the exposure) But had it been me, i wouldnt want to plan and committ to a daily schedule planned weeks or months ahead to make that little extra.
2. Low salary is acceptable due to minimal living expenses. I think money is also an incentive to teamhouses. Ofc, every player stresses the learning benefits, but the paid rent/food/traveling expenses are also important, especially for low earning pros. I also think this is why more likely to see the lower tier of a pro team shacking up together than the ace players. If your living costs are close to zero you can make by. For instance when i was in the mandatory military service we made around $ 800-900 a month (5 times less than unskilled labor in Norway) but we were barely able to live off it cuz of virtually no expenses.
3. The only way to truly know players avg. income without damaging the individual must be orchestrated trough a highly respected and reputable community member. I think it could be feasable to have someone collect non-spesific player data from teams and present the statistics on a regional level. (Say top 5 eu teams, top 5 NA and all the GSL teams). This would at least be a pointer to income in the respecitve realms, wouldnt be damaging to spesific players/teams and quell a hell of a lot of speculation. I dont know if anybody has the perceived integrity and authority to do this world wide, i highly doubt it. It could be possible to have a representative of GSL/IEM/MLG to their respective regions, but it might foster cross-regional competition (oh noes) and few companies perceive that to be a good thing.
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Hmm I guess the money part is kinda confusing, first it says $ which indicates it's in dollars, but then after it says "cents" which actually means 0.002 cents and not 0.002 dollar. Anyhow it should be $0.002 which indeed is $22/ad.
Heheh yeah xD didn't read the $ sign, but yeah $ and cent label at the same time is confusing...
Why not shed some light on it then instead of saying "LOL noobs speculating?" Otherwise, just let us speculate. There's only one player we know of and it's Destiny since he's come out and said how much he makes.
I agree, I'm not liking incontrol's "slips" on professionalism.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
excuse me? It gets really old when every post I make that someone disagrees with somehow calls to question my professional conduct.
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moon got a 750k/3 year with we made fox
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On May 08 2011 03:35 iNcontroL wrote:
excuse me? It gets really old when every post I make that someone disagrees with somehow calls to question my professional conduct.
I wouldn't pay attention to it if I where you. Isn't there a meme going "haters gonna hate"?
While I respect your choice of not telling people salaries (assuming you know any outside of Idra), it would be nice of you to put out somekind of estimate. I think we all know that Idra makes enough to live off of it, but does he make enough for a long term plan when he eventually stops playing sc2? Does he have a car? Does he eat at Ikea every day or have enough for real food? And stuff like this i think most of us are just curious of how they are doing, and not the exact income.
edit: and yourself for that matter, if you're willing to shed some light on the matter.
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To be honest who cares how much money they make? Its just money?! I am about 3/4 of the way to getting my degree in forensic psychology, sure I plan to make good money with it. If it wasnt for the long term GF and inevidentable kids. I would take the pay the cut in a heartbeat to do something I truly am passionate/enjoy and just live a life where happyiness is more inmportant then money in your bank account.
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I think Destiny/Steven is making a good example here. There is nothing to be ashamed of, and you dont have to go into specifics like Steven did(altho I love you for doing it :D). But a general amount like "I make between 10-15k/month" would be nice. It's just a way to cater to the fans, we envy you and are curious. Nothing wrong with indulging peoples curiosity is there? =)
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On May 07 2011 09:38 BroboCop wrote:
Currently, sc2 pro player salaries are widely going to be based on speculation + limited information (from players like destiny). However, what I can say about team sponsorships is:
my brother had an IRL friend on EG's Counter Strike 1.6 team, and he mentioned that he was SALARIED at $80k/yr~. Now note that CS =/= sc2 so it is more than likely that salaries are different. However, once again, one could assume that say the salary of strifcro =/= salary of idra.
The thread is indeed very interesting though, and yes it seems some people are being slightly intrusive but part of what makes SPECTATOR-sports(meaning sports, e-sports, the works) big is "how much money people make" [for example my irl friend that is very good at soccer/keeps up with it mentions how xx makes "this many million a year" and this ref got $50k for reffing just 1 game] although it shouldn't play a factor it does and always will--money makes the world go round.
Xp3(french player that moved to canada for studies/gf and placed 2nd in ESEA invite ect ect) said in an interview with aAa that EG's cs players we're getting ~800/1K a month that's far from 80K.
For the record, WC3 players (and now SC2 players) have generally had a lot more lucrative salaries than cs players
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Several things:
1) Prize money isn't as much as people make it out to be. There are pretty significant taxes in a lot of countries (at least in USA / Canada) on tournament winnings. For example, Canada taxes 35%... most teams take some percentage of prize winning as well (I think a standard is 15-20%). So basically, any tournament winnings has to be cut almost in half from the stated amount.
2) There are very few teams who can even afford to pay significant salaries to players... this is an infant industry really and it's a slow process trying to monetize this. Individuals have found a nice way to monetize this game (through streaming and coaching, and some individual sponsor plugging)... but so far the actual teams/oranizations themselves have had a tough time realizing an actual profit from this. EG and Liquid (this is just my opinion) -- seem to be the only teams that have found a good way to actually benefit financially (see all the new sponsor announcements from these teams!)
3) It takes a LOT of time/effort to make money from this game. If you look at people like Husky/Day9/incontrol/Idra/even Destiny -- it took them a long time to start actually making money. I mean, Idra wasn't getting anything from being a pro initially, and all the money he made was purely tournament winnings. Husky worked his ass off and didn't start making money for a long time. Now that they are making money, these guys are still working non-stop at it. It isn't this idealistic thing where money magically comes to you - Starcraft (if you're serious about it the way the above mentioned guys are) is actually a lot of work!
4) Personally -- I've been involved with Starcraft since it came out. I've been an "admin" since 2004. I joined the WGTour admin staff and ran the clan league and nation wars. I started running US tournaments (War of the States in 2006 was my first individual project). I founded BWUSA.org and created the Yankee League. I ran a 128 team tournament by myself, I put my own cash to fly to events and give some money to tournaments I ran. I didn't make a single dollar from Starcraft until late 2008, where I think if I remember correctly I made a few hundred bucks (which covered what I put in from my own pocket which was neat). It wasn't until 2010 that I actually earned a salary (so basically ~~5 years of working in the community to get to the position I'm at). And even then, I'm not making enough to live comfortably off of right now.
Obviously my case is a little different, since I started in the Brood War days and there was no money there; players would join a team for $50 per month, and the highest paid non Korean players were getting about $350 per month (this was back in 06-08). So someone expecting to start making money (I'm talking about from a more administrative perspective rather than as a player) obviously won't have to work 5 years for free like I did, but it still isn't something that's going to come about instantaneously (think about Wolf for example... I'm not sure but I think he's earning a bit of a salary now, but it took him ~1 year to get to this point with FXO).
I would also say that approaching this scene/community/game with the intention of making money from it is the wrong angle. I don't think you should look to justify your time investment by looking at the salary of the top people in the community. I think you should justify it instead by saying "I LOVE Starcraft, and I'm just going to keep doing what I can to contribute". If you're consistent enough (Day9 got to where he is because he was the only person who was producing regular, daily content) and good at what you do, financial success will follow. It's like that in every other aspect of life, and it's like that for Starcraft too!
I'm very happy to know that the game I started playing with my cousin when I was 10 years old is still a big part of my life, and that I've done a lot to help give back to the community that I love, and that on top of it all, I'm finally able to make some money on it to help pay for my education.
Anyway: random factoids:
- The biggest streamers (I.E. guys like Destiny) will probably make somewhere between 3-5k per month if they're streaming a lot
- A lot of players who I know of that do coaching, coach quite a bit and it's something like a regular job for them, and I'd probably roughly assume some averages (5 hours per day, 6 days per week of coaching at an average rate of $35/hour) that the upper tier (not top top tier such as Idra or iNcontroL) coaches can earn about $4k/month
- Most famous players (excluding Korea, obviously) are probably earning something in the range of $2k/2.5k per month
- 2nd tier (I.E. other top tier players) will be making something along the lines of $800-$1.5k per month
- 3rd tier players will be making around $300-$600 per month
- I don't really have any info on players from the less sponsored/smaller teams: however I'd assume salaries of $100-$200 and LAN support.
Standard deals from every notable sponsored teams include: free hardware, free LAN trips (paying for flights + hotels + some meal expense + taxi to/from airport hotels, etc). Teams are also supportive of the 'pro houses' and will subsidize expenses (generally speaking).
- Big name casters also get pretty good money, although I don't have any idea about rates casters get paid or anything (I have very little information here so I won't comment on it because it would be too speculative).
Hope people found this informative. If anyone has questions about my career, or anyone looking to go down the path of an "admin" (more general questions) I'd be happy to answer. I won't answer any specific questions (I.E. about specific players, specific figures, etc). Anyway that's my piece.
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On May 07 2011 16:10 leadphyc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 08:26 Drlemur wrote:This is a great site. But look how quick the money drops off. By #20, it's only $15,500, which isn't really livable. But I think in tourney sports that's not uncommon. Not that many golfers make that much in prize money per year either, they make it on endorsements. But live streaming is a cool game-only thing. If they get 1 penny per viewer per ad, a 3k viewer commercial is worth $30 and you can earn a bit. If it's .1 cents per viewer per ad, that's only $3 and it's barely going to pay for beer. I wonder. 15,500 is a lot to live on. you should check on what the real cost of living is and then make your statements.know that ppl live of a less that 15,500. now on to the OP i really think their main income would come from sponsorships and coaching. and like stated before me the coaching depends on the person and i've seen idra's rates and they are ridiculous. It makes sense for him to have them so high as he is in high demand but damn........ who would pay that much for coaching?
How is $15,000 a lot to live on? Lets say you get a modest apartment for $800/month. That is $9600 a year. Now you have $5000 to live off of for food, car, gas, cell phone, etc. etc. for an entire year? $15,000 is a modest income if you are 20 and live at home and go to college, not if you are trying to get somewhere in your life. Even minimum wage should give you around $20,000 a year.
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On May 08 2011 03:35 iNcontroL wrote:
excuse me? It gets really old when every post I make that someone disagrees with somehow calls to question my professional conduct.
Really unprofessional of you to call his post out, imo.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Didn't DarkForce get a lapdance as part of his prize at some LAN in Germany?
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On May 04 2011 22:40 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:I wish people were mature enough to handle this kind of discussion, but I've seen how people across these intarwebz act, and I feel like players releasing a whole bunch of personal information about earnings could lead to a lot of bickering/arguing. That being said, I personally think that in a group full of mature members, conversations about salaries and the flow of money could be healthy, and maybe even necessary in some cases. Ack, I was going to write out a whole bunch of examples where understanding where all the money is being distributed would generate a lot of interesting/insightful discussion, but I'm far too tired for that. That being said, I'm a very big proponent of high transparency, and I think that if people feel confident/good about what they're doing, there shouldn't be any problems with discussing your salary. Others feel uncomfortable, though, so, to each their own. For JTV streams, I'm pretty sure the figure is 0.2 cents per ad per viewer ($0.002/ad/viewer), and people who are using ad-block (or people in certain countries, for some reason) don't count towards that figure. For people who are interested, here's a clip of my last month's earnings - Unfortunately, from the 22nd to the 27th there was an error with reporting ad revenue so for some reason the entire day pretty much didn't write correctly, but otherwise, I think that provides a decent estimate of what someone can make streaming. That being said, I stream for quite a few hours at a time, and I can hold ~3k viewers. You could still make a decent amount of money (far more than what I used to think possible) with even 500 viewers for 6 hours a day. Even a few hundred dollars a month is more money than most people would ever think possible from streaming. I can try to answer any questions, but I don't know specifics in terms of contracts from other people or teams, so it's hard to say what salaries are like.
Mad props steven, I've always been a big fan of your stream and gameplay, but you also have some insightful things to say :3
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On May 30 2011 10:49 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 22:40 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:I wish people were mature enough to handle this kind of discussion, but I've seen how people across these intarwebz act, and I feel like players releasing a whole bunch of personal information about earnings could lead to a lot of bickering/arguing. That being said, I personally think that in a group full of mature members, conversations about salaries and the flow of money could be healthy, and maybe even necessary in some cases. Ack, I was going to write out a whole bunch of examples where understanding where all the money is being distributed would generate a lot of interesting/insightful discussion, but I'm far too tired for that. That being said, I'm a very big proponent of high transparency, and I think that if people feel confident/good about what they're doing, there shouldn't be any problems with discussing your salary. Others feel uncomfortable, though, so, to each their own. For JTV streams, I'm pretty sure the figure is 0.2 cents per ad per viewer ($0.002/ad/viewer), and people who are using ad-block (or people in certain countries, for some reason) don't count towards that figure. For people who are interested, here's a clip of my last month's earnings - Unfortunately, from the 22nd to the 27th there was an error with reporting ad revenue so for some reason the entire day pretty much didn't write correctly, but otherwise, I think that provides a decent estimate of what someone can make streaming. That being said, I stream for quite a few hours at a time, and I can hold ~3k viewers. You could still make a decent amount of money (far more than what I used to think possible) with even 500 viewers for 6 hours a day. Even a few hundred dollars a month is more money than most people would ever think possible from streaming. I can try to answer any questions, but I don't know specifics in terms of contracts from other people or teams, so it's hard to say what salaries are like. Mad props steven, I've always been a big fan of your stream and gameplay, but you also have some insightful things to say :3
It baffles me how one individual can be so foul-mouthed, yet so sophisticated(?) A double edged sword you are, Mr Bonnell the second. I still love you thou.
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On May 16 2011 03:57 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Didn't DarkForce get a lapdance as part of his prize at some LAN in Germany?
haha, no. that wasn't part of his prize. that gogo girl was there anyway cause the community wanted to have one and donated the money, so she gave lapdances as well. Rotterdam got one too and he didn't even play in the tournament
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On May 08 2011 05:22 Xeris wrote:
Several things:
1) Prize money isn't as much as people make it out to be. There are pretty significant taxes in a lot of countries (at least in USA / Canada) on tournament winnings. For example, Canada taxes 35%... most teams take some percentage of prize winning as well (I think a standard is 15-20%). So basically, any tournament winnings has to be cut almost in half from the stated amount.
2) There are very few teams who can even afford to pay significant salaries to players... this is an infant industry really and it's a slow process trying to monetize this. Individuals have found a nice way to monetize this game (through streaming and coaching, and some individual sponsor plugging)... but so far the actual teams/oranizations themselves have had a tough time realizing an actual profit from this. EG and Liquid (this is just my opinion) -- seem to be the only teams that have found a good way to actually benefit financially (see all the new sponsor announcements from these teams!)
3) It takes a LOT of time/effort to make money from this game. If you look at people like Husky/Day9/incontrol/Idra/even Destiny -- it took them a long time to start actually making money. I mean, Idra wasn't getting anything from being a pro initially, and all the money he made was purely tournament winnings. Husky worked his ass off and didn't start making money for a long time. Now that they are making money, these guys are still working non-stop at it. It isn't this idealistic thing where money magically comes to you - Starcraft (if you're serious about it the way the above mentioned guys are) is actually a lot of work!
4) Personally -- I've been involved with Starcraft since it came out. I've been an "admin" since 2004. I joined the WGTour admin staff and ran the clan league and nation wars. I started running US tournaments (War of the States in 2006 was my first individual project). I founded BWUSA.org and created the Yankee League. I ran a 128 team tournament by myself, I put my own cash to fly to events and give some money to tournaments I ran. I didn't make a single dollar from Starcraft until late 2008, where I think if I remember correctly I made a few hundred bucks (which covered what I put in from my own pocket which was neat). It wasn't until 2010 that I actually earned a salary (so basically ~~5 years of working in the community to get to the position I'm at). And even then, I'm not making enough to live comfortably off of right now.
Obviously my case is a little different, since I started in the Brood War days and there was no money there; players would join a team for $50 per month, and the highest paid non Korean players were getting about $350 per month (this was back in 06-08). So someone expecting to start making money (I'm talking about from a more administrative perspective rather than as a player) obviously won't have to work 5 years for free like I did, but it still isn't something that's going to come about instantaneously (think about Wolf for example... I'm not sure but I think he's earning a bit of a salary now, but it took him ~1 year to get to this point with FXO).
I would also say that approaching this scene/community/game with the intention of making money from it is the wrong angle. I don't think you should look to justify your time investment by looking at the salary of the top people in the community. I think you should justify it instead by saying "I LOVE Starcraft, and I'm just going to keep doing what I can to contribute". If you're consistent enough (Day9 got to where he is because he was the only person who was producing regular, daily content) and good at what you do, financial success will follow. It's like that in every other aspect of life, and it's like that for Starcraft too!
I'm very happy to know that the game I started playing with my cousin when I was 10 years old is still a big part of my life, and that I've done a lot to help give back to the community that I love, and that on top of it all, I'm finally able to make some money on it to help pay for my education.
Anyway: random factoids:
- The biggest streamers (I.E. guys like Destiny) will probably make somewhere between 3-5k per month if they're streaming a lot
- A lot of players who I know of that do coaching, coach quite a bit and it's something like a regular job for them, and I'd probably roughly assume some averages (5 hours per day, 6 days per week of coaching at an average rate of $35/hour) that the upper tier (not top top tier such as Idra or iNcontroL) coaches can earn about $4k/month
- Most famous players (excluding Korea, obviously) are probably earning something in the range of $2k/2.5k per month
- 2nd tier (I.E. other top tier players) will be making something along the lines of $800-$1.5k per month
- 3rd tier players will be making around $300-$600 per month
- I don't really have any info on players from the less sponsored/smaller teams: however I'd assume salaries of $100-$200 and LAN support.
Standard deals from every notable sponsored teams include: free hardware, free LAN trips (paying for flights + hotels + some meal expense + taxi to/from airport hotels, etc). Teams are also supportive of the 'pro houses' and will subsidize expenses (generally speaking).
- Big name casters also get pretty good money, although I don't have any idea about rates casters get paid or anything (I have very little information here so I won't comment on it because it would be too speculative).
Hope people found this informative. If anyone has questions about my career, or anyone looking to go down the path of an "admin" (more general questions) I'd be happy to answer. I won't answer any specific questions (I.E. about specific players, specific figures, etc). Anyway that's my piece.
I'm going to bump this reply, because i feel that it's probably the most informative post in this thread. also I don't think anyone's going into esports for money, but they're asking such questions to gauge how financially feasible going "pro" is.
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The money has grown dramatically, and it will continue to grow a lot more. But it's hard to predict exactly how big it will get. I think we will see some pros signing pretty big sponsorship deals in the near future -- at least if the popularity of sc2 at mlg Columbus is any indicator.
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On May 30 2011 10:49 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 22:40 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:I wish people were mature enough to handle this kind of discussion, but I've seen how people across these intarwebz act, and I feel like players releasing a whole bunch of personal information about earnings could lead to a lot of bickering/arguing. That being said, I personally think that in a group full of mature members, conversations about salaries and the flow of money could be healthy, and maybe even necessary in some cases. Ack, I was going to write out a whole bunch of examples where understanding where all the money is being distributed would generate a lot of interesting/insightful discussion, but I'm far too tired for that. That being said, I'm a very big proponent of high transparency, and I think that if people feel confident/good about what they're doing, there shouldn't be any problems with discussing your salary. Others feel uncomfortable, though, so, to each their own. For JTV streams, I'm pretty sure the figure is 0.2 cents per ad per viewer ($0.002/ad/viewer), and people who are using ad-block (or people in certain countries, for some reason) don't count towards that figure. For people who are interested, here's a clip of my last month's earnings - Unfortunately, from the 22nd to the 27th there was an error with reporting ad revenue so for some reason the entire day pretty much didn't write correctly, but otherwise, I think that provides a decent estimate of what someone can make streaming. That being said, I stream for quite a few hours at a time, and I can hold ~3k viewers. You could still make a decent amount of money (far more than what I used to think possible) with even 500 viewers for 6 hours a day. Even a few hundred dollars a month is more money than most people would ever think possible from streaming. I can try to answer any questions, but I don't know specifics in terms of contracts from other people or teams, so it's hard to say what salaries are like. Mad props steven, I've always been a big fan of your stream and gameplay, but you also have some insightful things to say :3
haha damn 4 g's a month for letting people watch you play starcraft. so awesome !
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On June 11 2011 13:04 Grampz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 10:49 KimJongChill wrote:On May 04 2011 22:40 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:I wish people were mature enough to handle this kind of discussion, but I've seen how people across these intarwebz act, and I feel like players releasing a whole bunch of personal information about earnings could lead to a lot of bickering/arguing. That being said, I personally think that in a group full of mature members, conversations about salaries and the flow of money could be healthy, and maybe even necessary in some cases. Ack, I was going to write out a whole bunch of examples where understanding where all the money is being distributed would generate a lot of interesting/insightful discussion, but I'm far too tired for that. That being said, I'm a very big proponent of high transparency, and I think that if people feel confident/good about what they're doing, there shouldn't be any problems with discussing your salary. Others feel uncomfortable, though, so, to each their own. For JTV streams, I'm pretty sure the figure is 0.2 cents per ad per viewer ($0.002/ad/viewer), and people who are using ad-block (or people in certain countries, for some reason) don't count towards that figure. For people who are interested, here's a clip of my last month's earnings - Unfortunately, from the 22nd to the 27th there was an error with reporting ad revenue so for some reason the entire day pretty much didn't write correctly, but otherwise, I think that provides a decent estimate of what someone can make streaming. That being said, I stream for quite a few hours at a time, and I can hold ~3k viewers. You could still make a decent amount of money (far more than what I used to think possible) with even 500 viewers for 6 hours a day. Even a few hundred dollars a month is more money than most people would ever think possible from streaming. I can try to answer any questions, but I don't know specifics in terms of contracts from other people or teams, so it's hard to say what salaries are like. Mad props steven, I've always been a big fan of your stream and gameplay, but you also have some insightful things to say :3 haha damn 4 g's a month for letting people watch you play starcraft. so awesome !
Heh.
I wouldn't be surprised of HD/Husky rake in around 80-130k a year putting out 3-4 videos daily.
But yeah, making a living off just pure SC2 streaming is awesome.
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Programing isn't about the money, lol @ people that care so much.
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this is proof enough of how the fans are what gives life to esports
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On June 11 2011 13:54 Shooks wrote:
Programing isn't about the money, lol @ people that care so much.
SC has to be about the money.
These players are putting in 8-10 hours a day to practice. If they cannot get a stable income, they won't be able to support themselves
It's not the same for other games where you don't need to practice as much.
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On June 11 2011 13:04 Grampz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2011 10:49 KimJongChill wrote:On May 04 2011 22:40 Steven.Bonnell.II wrote:I wish people were mature enough to handle this kind of discussion, but I've seen how people across these intarwebz act, and I feel like players releasing a whole bunch of personal information about earnings could lead to a lot of bickering/arguing. That being said, I personally think that in a group full of mature members, conversations about salaries and the flow of money could be healthy, and maybe even necessary in some cases. Ack, I was going to write out a whole bunch of examples where understanding where all the money is being distributed would generate a lot of interesting/insightful discussion, but I'm far too tired for that. That being said, I'm a very big proponent of high transparency, and I think that if people feel confident/good about what they're doing, there shouldn't be any problems with discussing your salary. Others feel uncomfortable, though, so, to each their own. For JTV streams, I'm pretty sure the figure is 0.2 cents per ad per viewer ($0.002/ad/viewer), and people who are using ad-block (or people in certain countries, for some reason) don't count towards that figure. For people who are interested, here's a clip of my last month's earnings - Unfortunately, from the 22nd to the 27th there was an error with reporting ad revenue so for some reason the entire day pretty much didn't write correctly, but otherwise, I think that provides a decent estimate of what someone can make streaming. That being said, I stream for quite a few hours at a time, and I can hold ~3k viewers. You could still make a decent amount of money (far more than what I used to think possible) with even 500 viewers for 6 hours a day. Even a few hundred dollars a month is more money than most people would ever think possible from streaming. I can try to answer any questions, but I don't know specifics in terms of contracts from other people or teams, so it's hard to say what salaries are like. Mad props steven, I've always been a big fan of your stream and gameplay, but you also have some insightful things to say :3 haha damn 4 g's a month for letting people watch you play starcraft. so awesome !
Yeah you have to look at the hours he's putting in (a lot haha). But I suppose you could just say that he would be playing that much anyway, but now he's making money off of it. Regardless, it takes a lot of work (and time) to make that kind of money AND Destiny is one of the most popular streamers around so you can't think that any old streamer can make this kind of money. High viewership is very very hard to obtain
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On June 11 2011 13:54 Shooks wrote:
Programing isn't about the money, lol @ people that care so much.
You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Of course it's partially about the love of the game; however, it's childish to say that professional players don't do it for the money. It is their job, their livelihood. Pro gamers are pragmatic by necessity. It's a strange, growing professional field but it certainly isn't the most rock solid of careers (yet). Your statement makes you sound like a 16 year old kid living at home -- maybe you are, and there's nothing wrong with that. I would wager that earning a living is near the top of pro gamers' priorities along with glory, competitive satisfaction, etc.
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Steven, I shall give u 0.002 cents by watching your stream right now =]
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On May 03 2011 08:40 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 08:39 jester- wrote:On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works. Negative. Ad's pay by viewer count. Still off. Ads pay by the viewer count of those not using Adblock and within specific, targeted regions.
If you have adblock or are not in their targeted region, you won't see the ad. So no, he wasn't off.
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On June 11 2011 13:54 Shooks wrote:
Programing isn't about the money, lol @ people that care so much.
The "pro" means professional, as in it's your job to be good at Starcraft. Pretty sure jobs involve getting paid. Jobs can be about other things too, but if you're not getting paid to do something it's definitely not your profession.
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On June 11 2011 14:16 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 13:54 Shooks wrote:
Programing isn't about the money, lol @ people that care so much. You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Of course it's partially about the love of the game; however, it's childish to say that professional players don't do it for the money. It is their job, their livelihood. Pro gamers are pragmatic by necessity. It's a strange, growing professional field but it certainly isn't the most rock solid of careers (yet). Your statement makes you sound like a 16 year old kid living at home -- maybe you are, and there's nothing wrong with that. I would wager that earning a living is near the top of pro gamers' priorities along with glory, competitive satisfaction, etc.
I said it isn't about the money, I didn't say they don't care about the money. Obviously they need enough to fucking live
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some players, such as idra, have a salary.
A lot of players make some good money off streaming commercials. If you arent on a team paying you money, or giving you a team house, youll have to be winning a lot of small tournaments, or working part time.
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Jobs involve working for either a set number of hours or satisfying a condition (salary). Right now the SC2 western scene has a lot of players who aren't regulated in either of these ways but still being paid. Most of the shit going on in SC2 foreigner teams would never fly in pro-sports(Europe or US) or korean BW, when that changes we will really see an explosion of the scene.
I love ESPORTS but throughout my life I have known 3 people who are now professional athletes in three different areas (Serie A, NFL, and NBA) and their dedication to training is much larger than any foreigner SC2 player I have heard of. This makes it difficult for me to take seriously these pros that spend less than ~40 hours a week training. I enjoy SC2 but if you want to have people take it seriously you need to stop with the casting x hours a week, streaming x hours a week, and coaching x hours a week and actually take your job as a pro seriously. I'm not going to put this 100% on the players, if they were earning enough cash they didn't need the streaming/coaching/casting revenue they wouldn't try for it. The teams need to pay a good salary and hire a coach to keep the players in line. That is how all sports work, why can't ESPORTS work that way?
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On June 11 2011 15:29 Duravi wrote:
Jobs involve working for either a set number of hours or satisfying a condition (salary). Right now the SC2 western scene has a lot of players who aren't regulated in either of these ways but still being paid. Most of the shit going on in SC2 foreigner teams would never fly in pro-sports(Europe or US) or korean BW, when that changes we will really see an explosion of the scene.
I love ESPORTS but throughout my life I have known 3 people who are now professional athletes in three different areas (Serie A, NFL, and NBA) and their dedication to training is much larger than any foreigner SC2 player I have heard of. This makes it difficult for me to take seriously these pros that spend less than ~40 hours a week training. I enjoy SC2 but if you want to have people take it seriously you need to stop with the casting x hours a week, streaming x hours a week, and coaching x hours a week and actually take your job as a pro seriously.
I have to agree with you. Though i'm not saying none of the EU/NA pro's are taking it seriously enough, there is, I think, still a big difference between an actual pro-sport and e-sports.
Do you think pro-gamers (I see this mainly in S-Korea though) that wear a shirt saying 'Intel' or 'AMD' or 'G-skills' etc don't get some money for wearing that shirt?(Similar to actual athletes) I think a lot of players get a fixed salary from sponsors (no idea how much that is) based on a contract, not based on prize-money etc. For e-sports to become anything like an actualy sport, there is still a long way to go. Let's just keep supporting it and eventually EU/NA will be a lot similar to S-Korea, and thereby also a lot more like an actual 'pro-sport'
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Really interesting to see how this thread has developed over the past month. I wouldn't necessarily call it informative, but interesting for sure. Out of all the posts it seems to me Destiny and Xeris have provided probably the most accurate information.
Personally, I don't see the big deal with salary transparency, although it's perfectly understandable when things like NDAs are involved. Even outside of progaming, it seems those who don't wish to share their salaries don't do it because their salaries fall outside of a comparable range or industry to whoever is asking them (ie an accountant may not share their salary with a full-time sears employee, but would be more inclined to with another accountant).
Was gonna post an opinion related to teams taking players from other teams, but it was a moot point after rereading what I had typed
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Ok, so based off of the information that we have so far we can lay out some basic guide lines. I live in the metropolitan area of Portland, OR. Portland on average costs 120% of the national average for rent and bills. I am going to ignore the +20% and just use that as a buffer.
A 2br apartment that is acceptable to live in is $600 a month, utilites are $50 a month, cable/internet is $120 a month, water/trash is 40 a month, 100 for cell phone. I pay about 300 a month in groceries plus I want a couple hundred for going out to dinner and movies and such.
600+50+120+40+100+300+200= $1400.
Including car insurance (100) and gas (50 a tank and 2x a month) the projected total that I would be looking to earn a month is 1600.
A streamer on J.tv gets 1c every 5 viewers. so if they get 1k viewers, they would get $2 per ad. If games last between 7 minutes and 30 minutes and average 15 minutes, then we can say we get 4 ads per hour or $8/hr per 1k viewers. This is the equivalent of a minimum wage.
A lower end pro (top masters, prolly gm) could charge $25-30 a lesson. The key to making money off of lessons is to actually set up lessons >.>.
I would not rely on making money from placing in tournaments. This is just bonus.
Salary- If you are on a team that gets a salary, then you are probably known well enough to fill your time with coaching. At this point you don't really need to worry about hitting $1600 a month. While I would like to know the graph of pro salaries, Non-top pros don't really apply for this.
Youtube/blip- In order to get a youtube partner account you need to have consistent videos with thousands of views, and a lot of subscribers. This generally comes from innovative videos, there are other places that will tell you how much youtubers make.
So we are going to look at 2 different revenue sources. First one is streaming- Obviously at $8 w/ consistent 1k viewers is something that we can't guarantee but it is a starting point.
100hrs a month- $800.
200hrs a month- target goal. So if we streamed for 200hrs a month (which is 50hrs per week or 7hrs per day average) we should hit our target of 1600 a month. This is the worst case scenario (obv getting 1k viewers is nice, but it is slower than 30 an hr)
$30/hr
55hrs per month- 1650 or our target goal. This would be 14-15 lessons a week or 2-3 a day (depending on schedules). If you can get a reputation for being a good coach getting 1-2 lessons a day is a possibility.
30hrs per month (1 lesson per day)- 900
So if we hit the minimum coaching sessions that we are looking for (900 a month) then we can fill in the other 700 with streaming. My first conclusion is that getting 1k viewers for 100hrs a month (5hrs a day/5 days a week) is probably going to be tough; If you are good enough to consider going pro at sc2 then this becomes easier to think about. Getting an average of 1 lesson per day is also going to be tough. I would recommend getting your name out there in as many areas as possible (youtube vids explaining builds and scenarios off of the top of my head). The good thing about these prospects is that if you are good enough to entertain the thought of going pro, then it shouldn't be hard to draw crowds with your play. 130hrs/month playing the game that you love and supporting yourself (barely) would be awesome too.
Final conclusion- It seems like it would be hard to get into the position of paying your way through sc. I wouldn't suggest anybody but the top 1% of masters even try it (even then, you shouldn't quit your job until you know this is going to work) and lower level pros should be fine making enough money if they stream and coach. That being said this does compound pretty nicely. I said that $2 per 1k views w/ an ave of 4 commercials would get $8/hr, destiny gets 3k viewers fairly consistently and IdrA shoots up to 8+k viewers whenever he plays. At $64 an hour to stream, I don't know why IdrA doesn't stream more (makes me wonder if we are off because of other factors). Coaching will go even easier; First of all, top coaches make between 50-70 and sometimes even more. Plus the ease of filling your times as a coach like iNcontrol you can feasibly do 5hrs a day X $80 is 300...
300x20-80x= 6k a month minus tournaments and other obligations that eat into that 5 hours a day (there are 16 or so to work with). If you add on top of that streaming and a sponsorship that includes major computing companies and you have a 100k/year salary for iNcontrol plus whatever he makes for being a NASL commentator. While what I am saying is speculation based off of his statements for febuary-march (on 12 weeks) plus the basic info that we have gotten from destiny on J.tv streaming.... Good for you Geoff.
So another character- Destiny. 50x a lesson at 1.5x lessons per day x5 days he is getting 300 per week doing lessons + 4kis per month streaming. At 60k a year, Steven no longer needs to clean carpets and I would consider him an idiot if he did. This doesn't include his youtube account.
Obviously going into pro gaming for anything but a passion is a bad idea; And I would never advocate to quitting your job unless you absolutely know that you can support yourself.
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On May 30 2011 17:59 lazydino wrote:
It baffles me how one individual can be so foul-mouthed, yet so sophisticated(?) A double edged sword you are, Mr Bonnell the second. I still love you thou.
Every thought about the fact that your notion that saying "bad" words makes you unsophisticated was wrong from the beginning?
Saying bad words has no correlation at all with your sophistication and if you think so you are brainwashed in that area by people who educated you.
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On June 12 2011 21:11 ixi.genocide wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, so based off of the information that we have so far we can lay out some basic guide lines. I live in the metropolitan area of Portland, OR. Portland on average costs 120% of the national average for rent and bills. I am going to ignore the +20% and just use that as a buffer.
A 2br apartment that is acceptable to live in is $600 a month, utilites are $50 a month, cable/internet is $120 a month, water/trash is 40 a month, 100 for cell phone. I pay about 300 a month in groceries plus I want a couple hundred for going out to dinner and movies and such.
600+50+120+40+100+300+200= $1400.
Including car insurance (100) and gas (50 a tank and 2x a month) the projected total that I would be looking to earn a month is 1600.
A streamer on J.tv gets 1c every 5 viewers. so if they get 1k viewers, they would get $2 per ad. If games last between 7 minutes and 30 minutes and average 15 minutes, then we can say we get 4 ads per hour or $8/hr per 1k viewers. This is the equivalent of a minimum wage.
A lower end pro (top masters, prolly gm) could charge $25-30 a lesson. The key to making money off of lessons is to actually set up lessons >.>.
I would not rely on making money from placing in tournaments. This is just bonus.
Salary- If you are on a team that gets a salary, then you are probably known well enough to fill your time with coaching. At this point you don't really need to worry about hitting $1600 a month. While I would like to know the graph of pro salaries, Non-top pros don't really apply for this.
Youtube/blip- In order to get a youtube partner account you need to have consistent videos with thousands of views, and a lot of subscribers. This generally comes from innovative videos, there are other places that will tell you how much youtubers make.
So we are going to look at 2 different revenue sources. First one is streaming- Obviously at $8 w/ consistent 1k viewers is something that we can't guarantee but it is a starting point.
100hrs a month- $800.
200hrs a month- target goal. So if we streamed for 200hrs a month (which is 50hrs per week or 7hrs per day average) we should hit our target of 1600 a month. This is the worst case scenario (obv getting 1k viewers is nice, but it is slower than 30 an hr)
$30/hr
55hrs per month- 1650 or our target goal. This would be 14-15 lessons a week or 2-3 a day (depending on schedules). If you can get a reputation for being a good coach getting 1-2 lessons a day is a possibility.
30hrs per month (1 lesson per day)- 900
So if we hit the minimum coaching sessions that we are looking for (900 a month) then we can fill in the other 700 with streaming. My first conclusion is that getting 1k viewers for 100hrs a month (5hrs a day/5 days a week) is probably going to be tough; If you are good enough to consider going pro at sc2 then this becomes easier to think about. Getting an average of 1 lesson per day is also going to be tough. I would recommend getting your name out there in as many areas as possible (youtube vids explaining builds and scenarios off of the top of my head). The good thing about these prospects is that if you are good enough to entertain the thought of going pro, then it shouldn't be hard to draw crowds with your play. 130hrs/month playing the game that you love and supporting yourself (barely) would be awesome too.
Final conclusion- It seems like it would be hard to get into the position of paying your way through sc. I wouldn't suggest anybody but the top 1% of masters even try it (even then, you shouldn't quit your job until you know this is going to work) and lower level pros should be fine making enough money if they stream and coach. That being said this does compound pretty nicely. I said that $2 per 1k views w/ an ave of 4 commercials would get $8/hr, destiny gets 3k viewers fairly consistently and IdrA shoots up to 8+k viewers whenever he plays. At $64 an hour to stream, I don't know why IdrA doesn't stream more (makes me wonder if we are off because of other factors). Coaching will go even easier; First of all, top coaches make between 50-70 and sometimes even more. Plus the ease of filling your times as a coach like iNcontrol you can feasibly do 5hrs a day X $80 is 300...
300x20-80x= 6k a month minus tournaments and other obligations that eat into that 5 hours a day (there are 16 or so to work with). If you add on top of that streaming and a sponsorship that includes major computing companies and you have a 100k/year salary for iNcontrol plus whatever he makes for being a NASL commentator. While what I am saying is speculation based off of his statements for febuary-march (on 12 weeks) plus the basic info that we have gotten from destiny on J.tv streaming.... Good for you Geoff.
So another character- Destiny. 50x a lesson at 1.5x lessons per day x5 days he is getting 300 per week doing lessons + 4kis per month streaming. At 60k a year, Steven no longer needs to clean carpets and I would consider him an idiot if he did. This doesn't include his youtube account.
Obviously going into pro gaming for anything but a passion is a bad idea; And I would never advocate to quitting your job unless you absolutely know that you can support yourself.
That is some really informative theorycrafting, thanks for working this out
I think Idra doesnt stream more because streaming gives away a lot of information to opponents he might face in upcoming tournaments.
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On May 03 2011 08:14 CrazyCow wrote:
Do note though that they get money for ad clicks on their stream, not views. That's how almost all advertising works.
no...for justin.tv u get revenue with viewer count, ad clicks, and showing commercials.
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One thing you guys havn't considered but what comes up alot between poker players is the opportunity costs of being busy with games full time as a job. Think of things such as:
- You work from home (maybe even alone)
- There is no social element in your work on a face to face level. (I'll admit its abit the same as #1)
- Tax benefits dont really exist, its hard to buy a house with a variable income.
For these reasons I always tell people that wanna 'go pro' with poker to atleast do something on the side, or work on your social circle before stepping into it. It kinda sucks if you get miserable after 1 month of full time because you find yourself cut off from other people. I feel like the money you are getting out of it has to reflect these factors. A general rule might be that if you earn more then 3x then what you earn beforehand its gonna be worth it.
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just so you know, idra doesnt charge $300 an hour to coach because his lessons are high in demand, he does it because he doesnt want to coach - he wants to deter people from asking for coaching. Its more of a price on his time, he'd rather spend time practicing and what not then teaching some gold player that 'toss isnt meant to beat zerg' :p
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very curious...how did things progress during these 2 months in terms of progaming revenues?
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i think it would better to use that site as a salary "bonus" rather than actual income in the case of most pros anyway.
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Noone will tell you because they're afraid of transparency and the accountability it will bring. But, it is necessary for the growth and professionalism of the sport, as IGN pointed out in a thread a while back.
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On September 12 2011 02:43 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 21:11 ixi.genocide wrote:
Ok, so based off of the information that we have so far we can lay out some basic guide lines. I live in the metropolitan area of Portland, OR. Portland on average costs 120% of the national average for rent and bills. I am going to ignore the +20% and just use that as a buffer.
A 2br apartment that is acceptable to live in is $600 a month, utilites are $50 a month, cable/internet is $120 a month, water/trash is 40 a month, 100 for cell phone. I pay about 300 a month in groceries plus I want a couple hundred for going out to dinner and movies and such.
600+50+120+40+100+300+200= $1400.
Including car insurance (100) and gas (50 a tank and 2x a month) the projected total that I would be looking to earn a month is 1600. $300 a month groceries? What are you eating, gold chocolate bars? I make around $1800 a month (depends on conversion rate) and I saved up almost $10,000 over the past year. Either America is an expensive place to live or you're spending too much.
$300/month is ridiculous haha. I spend about $40/week max on food. $400/month in my apartment (it's called getting a roommate), $60 for cable/internet (cable is a luxury good anyways), and I spend $40 for cellphone. You need to learn how to save some money, 1400/month is a lot.
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On September 12 2011 02:54 SoKHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 02:43 Sated wrote:On June 12 2011 21:11 ixi.genocide wrote:
Ok, so based off of the information that we have so far we can lay out some basic guide lines. I live in the metropolitan area of Portland, OR. Portland on average costs 120% of the national average for rent and bills. I am going to ignore the +20% and just use that as a buffer.
A 2br apartment that is acceptable to live in is $600 a month, utilites are $50 a month, cable/internet is $120 a month, water/trash is 40 a month, 100 for cell phone. I pay about 300 a month in groceries plus I want a couple hundred for going out to dinner and movies and such.
600+50+120+40+100+300+200= $1400.
Including car insurance (100) and gas (50 a tank and 2x a month) the projected total that I would be looking to earn a month is 1600. $300 a month groceries? What are you eating, gold chocolate bars? I make around $1800 a month (depends on conversion rate) and I saved up almost $10,000 over the past year. Either America is an expensive place to live or you're spending too much. $300/month is ridiculous haha. I spend about $40/week max on food. $400/month in my apartment (it's called getting a roommate), $60 for cable/internet (cable is a luxury good anyways), and I spend $40 for cellphone. You need to learn how to save some money, 1400/month is a lot.
Cost of living in the states is much higher, so is eating healthy and going to school, having high-speed internet, dataplan on a cellphone, which I need for my work.
$400 a month won't get you anything in California, even with 3 room mates, try $700+
I think that salary transparency would be good for E-Sports, would help players and teams have a solid benchmark when negotiating and re-negotiating contracts. Players would know what to expect based on how well they perform, if a player was doing really well for their team, they would be able to easily compare their contracts to those of other players with similar results, and re-negotiate based on that. More motivation, the better.
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On September 12 2011 02:54 SoKHo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 02:43 Sated wrote:On June 12 2011 21:11 ixi.genocide wrote:
Ok, so based off of the information that we have so far we can lay out some basic guide lines. I live in the metropolitan area of Portland, OR. Portland on average costs 120% of the national average for rent and bills. I am going to ignore the +20% and just use that as a buffer.
A 2br apartment that is acceptable to live in is $600 a month, utilites are $50 a month, cable/internet is $120 a month, water/trash is 40 a month, 100 for cell phone. I pay about 300 a month in groceries plus I want a couple hundred for going out to dinner and movies and such.
600+50+120+40+100+300+200= $1400.
Including car insurance (100) and gas (50 a tank and 2x a month) the projected total that I would be looking to earn a month is 1600. $300 a month groceries? What are you eating, gold chocolate bars? I make around $1800 a month (depends on conversion rate) and I saved up almost $10,000 over the past year. Either America is an expensive place to live or you're spending too much. $300/month is ridiculous haha. I spend about $40/week max on food. $400/month in my apartment (it's called getting a roommate), $60 for cable/internet (cable is a luxury good anyways), and I spend $40 for cellphone. You need to learn how to save some money, 1400/month is a lot.
$300 for grocery isn't too much. I live in southern California and it costs me about $200 for grocery even when I eat out often. Buying produce from farmers market adds up pretty quickly. $500 for dine outs, $140 for internet, $90 for cellphone, etc. Mine adds up around the same too. For me, high speed internet, smartphone dataplan, and fresh food are necessities, so I don't mind. The fact that California has very high cost of living doesn't help either.
I'm not a fan of saving money since once I get married and start a family, I'll probably be forced to do it anyway. I'll enjoy whatever I can when I can.
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EPT
