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On May 03 2011 12:33 Kvothe wrote:
Incontrol is probably like but I only make 15k a year guys, and 90% of that is from casting NASL, no way anyone else can make any money.
If I'm not mistaken iNcontroL should be one of the highest earners in the western scene, mainly due to him being such a popular coach. He has a (justified) high coaching rate of 80$ (which was up at 100$ for some time) and he's constantly booked out from what I've heard. I remember one time where he said on his stream that he's about to have his 9th lesson this week (and that was during the 100$ period). Even if he only does 4 lessons a week, that's still a decent income.
Furthermore he is the 2nd most important person on EG's SC2 team (after IdrA), so his salary should be alright as well. No idea how much he gets from NASL and stuff but the points I listed already pile up to a good amount of money.
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If I remember well, SarenS and Tuzer said in an interview they had a salary about 500€/month when they were in aAa, which is pretty low in France considering the minimum salary for a full-time job is about 1000€, but it is enough to pay a little flat and food (doesn't allow you to buy a car or things like that however). And as someone said before in this topic, players like Kas and Dimaga may have the same income, but considering the low cost of life in Ukraine, they are quite comfortable.
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On May 04 2011 00:29 -Zoda- wrote:
If I remember well, SarenS and Tuzer said in an interview they had a salary about 500€/month when they were in aAa, which is pretty low in France considering the minimum salary for a full-time job is about 1000€, but it is enough to pay a little flat and food (doesn't allow you to buy a car or things like that however). And as someone said before in this topic, players like Kas and Dimaga may have the same income, but considering the low cost of life in Ukraine, they are quite comfortable.
And that's not including streaming/winnings/coaching. It shouldn't be that hard to make about 500€ in the month just off streaming, coaching and winnings.
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Providing NASL takes off, I think it will be safe to say InControl will be the real moneymaker. I mean if NASL gets 10,000 subscriptions at $25 each thats $250,000 minus the $100k prize money leaves $150,000 for profit, reinvestment or whatever. That combined with his other incomes makes him #1 in I think.
As for the rest of the Pro Gamers, its too bad they dont make more money. Its not too hard for a guy out of school to make 6 figures nowadays (or close to it), so imo pro gamers should be paid more. They just need more people following them.
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Potentially a player could have the quality of:
Destiny stream+ ($14 per ad)
Husky youtube+ ($100,000 p/year)
Liquid Contract+ (No idea, but prob a significant amount)
InControL coaching+ ($150 per hour)
IMMVP skill ($$$ from tournaments)
Personal sponsorships (tyler/stride, TLO/drpepper)
That's a shitload of money.
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Pro gamers do not make a "set" amount of money. it will influx and there will be idle time. You want a number? that number is an estimate. Which is what destiny has announced in his AMA, its just an estimate.
There isn't a number, aside what might be a base salary that pro's get from their team but the extra income isn't measureable until the end of the year.
All your answers will be(mostly) speculation. Contracts and such hold a players tongue on what they get paid. If you hear about it, don't talk about it unless that player tells you "its ok to talk about it" because you might screw that player over.
SUre you can be "general" about what player gets paid what, but why even talk about it?
To validate to your parents and friends? No one gets to where they are by getting prevalidated. Thats a falsehood that no progamer went through, they simply played because they loved the game and the competition.
a CEO can get 100k a year, unless he gets canned half way and gets 50k. a waiter can range from 10k to 60k a year. The talk of salary is vain and just creates animosity.
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You think gaming is more fun than normal career? I'm in a so called boring field, accounting and love it more than gaming. I would like to focus on tax law most and help people and corporations save money on taxes but who knows where it will go. Most good accountants work for top 5 or fortune 500s and make partner/CFO and make millions a year. No pro gamer does.
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Glad he used my design and image I made, but sadface 
As for what pros make, it varies considerably. Not only do you have potential salary from teams, you have sponsorship dollars from companies and product endorsing. Lessons, streaming and tournament winnings all add up as well.
The big thing that someone probably mentioned in talking about Destiny, is what he showed on his stream. He showed the JTV page that charts the dollars made per day. At the time he showed it, he was at the point where he was averaging around 2200-2500 viewers consistently. His daily average as shown on the site was about $150/day.
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The big thing to take away from it all, is that it will never be standardized in the next five years, and it will depend on what avenues each gamer takes.
The concept can be used in any other career avenue. For instance, I know an incredibly skilled designer and coder, and he used to have plenty of clients and made good money. However, he started teaching classes, and he works far less and makes more money now.
Translating that to gaming, someone can be content with doing the work and winning in tournaments and being sponsored for their income, or they can work on generating content, or providing lessons to other players.
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There's opportunity cost too associated with pro gaming too regardless of how much they make. When burned out or tossed out at 30 you're not going to just walk right in to corporate America since there is age discrimination and experience discrimination. If you start school at 30 you're even more fucked. Meanwhile, someone working a real job at 22 has been investing is his/her 401k, climbing into higher levels & management and by 30 is already an established professional and pretty well off.
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On May 04 2011 04:15 tdt wrote:
There's opportunity cost too associated with pro gaming too regardless of how much they make. When burned out or tossed out at 30 you're not going to just walk right in to corporate America since there is age discrimination and experience discrimination. If you start school at 30 you're even more fucked. Meanwhile, someone working a real job at 22 has been investing is his/her 401k, climbing into higher levels & management and by 30 is already an established professional and pretty well off.
Correct, but then again, there is an opportunity cost with other career pursuits as well. Just because you pursue education and professional work does not mean you'll make it as a professional, and there are zounds of people who are stuck in the lower end of the income range despite going to college & university.
In general, though, I'd say that people who made it as a professional gamer could have also made it as a professional in another area. Yeah, it's "just" playing games, but being a successful pro-gamer requires a huge amount of dedication and it's that same dedication that will get you far in other careers in life. To this end, choosing to go the route of professional gaming is really about personal passion rather than economic considerations, since pro-gaming, like pro-sports, is a relatively exclusive field and there is, as you said, the question of "retirement" and what happens after that.
My guess is that most successful pro-gamers plan to be part of the field even after they "retire" as players - ie as managers, coaches, commentators, organizers, etc. They're risking a lot on the assumption that eSports will take off in the West. But then again, they always have.
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I'm not quite certain why pro-gamers seem so distraught over speculation over their earning range. I don't think anybody expects exact figures for each individual, rather it is just the average, taking into account as many factors as possible, that people are seeking.
iNcontroL's argument that stating "I will make the top 1% in anything is unreasonable" makes logical sense and it is absolutely rude and invasive to ask for specific details on an individual basis. However, in also acknowledging that it's good to have a dream, then why not help validate having said dream by offering some guidance as to what one can expect upon achieving it?
When a pro-athlete goes to a school to speak to students/fans they don't say "I make x amount of dollars and you can too!" They will more likely state the rough average the position they play (not including endorsements, coaching camps, etc.) will earn and if you become the best, you could be like "x"#1 player.
TL and other forums are essentially the "school" in which the pros can speak to the dreamers. If the reality of that average is from travel/gear - $20,000+ (not including individual sponsors/streaming/coaching) then that's what the range is. There are still plenty of semi-pro athletes chasing their dream of the big leagues playing for pennies on the side. I would assume everyone understands that the top earners in the entire eSports community are in a very rarefied existence and that the situation of each is completely different.
If a totally objective stranger to eSports were to look in on the current thread, I would argue that it appears that paid gamers do not speak about salary range because it may possibly discourage potential competition or that the range quite low and they are discouraging people from wasting other opportunities. The other possible deduction being that sponsored teams do not want salary ranges in the public realm because it then provides them less leverage when negotiating salaries with new players. (*caveat* I am not saying that anything in this last paragraph is the case)
Nevertheless, the less transparent, the more speculation. This IS the internet remember...
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On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
300k/yr for 5 yrs is enough to get married, have kids buy a house and go back to school to get proper education, people who do that actually chase their dreams, also reward isn't only money, being appreciated for what you do is also some form of reward
also there are several pros with girlfriends...
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Hear hear fayth!
Follow the dream
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On May 04 2011 04:15 tdt wrote:
There's opportunity cost too associated with pro gaming too regardless of how much they make. When burned out or tossed out at 30 you're not going to just walk right in to corporate America since there is age discrimination and experience discrimination. If you start school at 30 you're even more fucked. Meanwhile, someone working a real job at 22 has been investing is his/her 401k, climbing into higher levels & management and by 30 is already an established professional and pretty well off.
Who says a progamer can't do both?
Tyler for example, is in (pre?)med school. I am going back to school this summer as well.
Not everyone needs 10+ hours of training a day to be a good player.
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On May 04 2011 06:14 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 04:15 tdt wrote:
There's opportunity cost too associated with pro gaming too regardless of how much they make. When burned out or tossed out at 30 you're not going to just walk right in to corporate America since there is age discrimination and experience discrimination. If you start school at 30 you're even more fucked. Meanwhile, someone working a real job at 22 has been investing is his/her 401k, climbing into higher levels & management and by 30 is already an established professional and pretty well off. Who says a progamer can't do both? Tyler for example, is in (pre?)med school. I am going back to school this summer as well. Not everyone needs 10+ hours of training a day to be a good player.
A lot of people like to take a break before grad school for example. If I was single, fresh out of college, and a badass at SC I'd seriously consider taking a few years off to travel the US and the world playing pro SC for a time.
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On May 04 2011 03:42 tdt wrote:
You think gaming is more fun than normal career? I'm in a so called boring field, accounting and love it more than gaming. I would like to focus on tax law most and help people and corporations save money on taxes but who knows where it will go. Most good accountants work for top 5 or fortune 500s and make partner/CFO and make millions a year. No pro gamer does.
what are you trying to say?...
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On May 03 2011 18:41 tyCe wrote:
Why is progaming so desirable anyway? That's a question that I don't really understand. I mean, I would love to be an elite professional footballer, but being an elite SC2 pro is completely different. You don't have the fame except to a bunch of fat, ugly fangirls and a bunch of nerds and casuals watching at their computers. You don't have great pay compared to other jobs you could have done (assuming that your intelligence and/or charisma is the reason for your SC2 success).. Further, your career is short and it is stressful to keep your position at the time. You have no employment prospects outside of the progaming scene after your career is done either. Furthermore, your achievements mean nothing to most people. Can you imagine telling your grandchildren that in your prime you were good at computer games? Video game fan is transient. Video games don't keep their popularity for more than 10 years. Even with BW in Korea, being a BW pro gives you a huge stigma when compared to other jobs you could have done with your brilliant RTS mind, e.g. lawyering, investment banking, corporate management, or even normal jobs like accounting or administration etc.
Sorry but 300k/year is NOTHING considering that:
1. your career is transient - maybe 3-5 years max
2. you have no education and/or work experience during your progaming career
3. you have no reasonable career prospects afterwards outside SC2 or progaming; no promotion prospects; i.e. you have no valid transition out of SC2, you are "all-in"
4. no substantial contact with social networks outside gaming; i.e. 90% of the people you know are gaming and are probably your rivals at some time and place
5. you have no girlfriend or at least no fulfilling relationship with your girlfriend, unless you make significant sacrifices in your SC2 career to do so
6. you have no real job security, and you have little say in how your career will be headed; SC2 is going to die out within the 15 years, and your ability will probably be surpassed in the next 1-2 years; might also get screwed over by map makers and Blizzard patch makers
7. even your fame is very limited and very transient; your fame is limited to nerds and casual enthusiasts who watch you on their computers; this group of people are notoriously fickle and will probably latch on the next big progamer and mostly forget about you (e.g. qxc ever since he went to study in Spain, Ret ever since he left Korea, Huk ever since he stopped winning tournaments)
8. the BIG one: if you were good enough to be making 300k/yr in SC2, you are probably talented enough to be making 300k/yr in another profession that may or may not be more fulfilling to you
IMO, progaming in SC2 has too much risk and too little reward. Only those without any other realistic prospects, and those who are still in high school and have a great talent in SC2, and of course those who had an SC2 progaming career fall into their laps without trying (e.g. IdrA and other BW foreign "pros"), should be actively pursuing a career out of SC2 progaming.
For those who claim that SC2 would be a great career for those who do it out of passion and not money, well let me ask you this: How passionate will you be about SC2 when you are forced to play 12 hours a day, everyday, and have to win the next tournament or the next show match or else you cannot buy your next meal or pay your next rent? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you realise you have been a total deadbeat for 9 months, relying on the dole and your grandmother's pension while you try to mass game to catch up to the top? How passionate will you be about SC2 when you see your former peers and friends move ahead in life, marrying, having kids, buying houses, and being able to financially support it?
If its doing something you love I see nothing wrong with it. If it makes you happy its better than being 'less miserable than homeless' working in a boring 9-5 job. The reason that people are drawn to being a pro is because its dedicating their life to something they love. Which is a task that most people who are middle-aged would have traded a lot of their jobs for instead of just doing something for the money. Though money makes it possible, its not the root behind any of it. Its the love for the game, the love for competition, and the love for the community that makes players want to go pro. And about job security, if you look at the potential of the industry, it actually looks incredibly promising for the future, while having a good education to fall back on is good (which sc pros have a lot of times) investing your life into esports is actually not as risky as you make it out to be. Your note about passion and being 'forced' to play all doesn't make sense. If a player loves the game to the point where he wants to go pro. Then practicing all that time is something he would prefer to do over a regular job. The argument you made could be applied to any other possible job in the world. Yes if you are doing it for the money its not good, but if you are doing out of passion and its what you want to do with your life, I'd say you are a step ahead of a LOT of the people in the world who are stuck in jobs that do not fulfill their life's desires and don't have a passion that gives their life meaning.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On May 04 2011 06:18 ROOTFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 03:42 tdt wrote:
You think gaming is more fun than normal career? I'm in a so called boring field, accounting and love it more than gaming. I would like to focus on tax law most and help people and corporations save money on taxes but who knows where it will go. Most good accountants work for top 5 or fortune 500s and make partner/CFO and make millions a year. No pro gamer does. what are you trying to say?...
lol i love when people enter a thread to justify their careers.
Your think Idra is cool?! You should see my junior field technician skills! 1 out of 7 junior field technicians have gone on to start their own company grossing well over $2.5M. I love my job! I'm great!
-_-
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EPT
