EPTA look at the Raven's role in TvZ - Page 5
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RandomAccount#106470
Lithuania1506 Posts
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
Also, i've seen some builds that large raven numbers to constantly harass the z with auto turrets Its pretty effective. | ||
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PartyBiscuit
Canada4525 Posts
On October 22 2010 01:15 Panoptic wrote: Get a feeling im gonna fet flamed/banned for this but I gotta say imo the OP is just plain wrong on almost every point. Have you actually watched any games? Raven's are used frequently in all MU's, nearly always useful and relatively easy to tech towards what with swapping tech labs & reactors. I just don't agree. ^this. PDD can shut down everything essentially and I've seen it used so much. As for actual seeker missiles, those are definitely much rarer. | ||
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Panoptic
United Kingdom515 Posts
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Kryptix
United States138 Posts
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Graven
United States314 Posts
On October 21 2010 17:01 MichaelJLowell wrote: Ravens are great. Seeker Missiles are costly, but they're a great deterrent to the Mutalisk Ball of Death™. If the enemy is playing Muta/Ling/Baneling in the mid-to-late game, use the Seeker Missiles to scare off the Mutalisks and start harassing ground forces. I presume the reason Ravens aren't getting more play is that their application is much more complicated than anyone's wrapped their head around. Still think they're the next "omg imba" unit. That doesn't really work. As a Zerg player, the first pack of Muta's is going to hit your base long before you get a Raven with HSM up. Without Thors, you simply can't defend the harassment effectively. I suppose you could switch to some Ravens afterward though, but it would be a tough balancing act. | ||
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telfire
United States415 Posts
I don't see how you can say it's not worth the cost. Sure, it would be expensive to make lots of them. But you don't need lots of them. You only need one, it's ridiculously potent. From Zerg's perspective - It makes it so you can't have creep very far outside your base if the T is being proactive at all. - It makes it so half your units can't attack for the first 10 seconds of a fight (aka the whole fight usually) - It has an ability that can devastate basically any unit that happens to get too clumped (aka almost every single Zerg unit) - It has an ability that forces me to either lose units for nothing or evacuate the area for like 2 minutes I honestly don't have a single answer to turrets in my minerals. No idea what you're supposed to do about that. GG every time for me. A unit that does all that, completely turns the tides of battle, offers extremely good harass, AND detection, and you only need one to be extremely effective, ought to cost quite a bit IMO. It costs only 100 gas more than an Observer and it has way more uses. Compared to an Overseer, well it pretty much lolz in its face. | ||
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universalwill
United States654 Posts
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
At this point I am willing to trade BW's vessels for ravens any day. The PDD is very good sometimes, but if you don't get to use it more than once, perhaps that 200 gas is better spent on a thor (or something else that can tank AND deal damage). If you lose the battle and the ravens go down to muta snipes, then uhh, yeah, PDDs don't seem that great anymore (but are still useful nonetheless). I still think they see more use against P. Compared to DMatrix, they both have their pros and cons, cons being that Z can ignore the matrixed unit, but really if you matrix the right target, can Z actually afford to ignore it for 60 seconds? | ||
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Bleedorang3
20 Posts
On October 21 2010 17:31 grinTOR wrote: That's the whole point of the Seeker missile...set it on the pack of mutas that are magic boxing your thors and they have to run away most of the time, or get utterly destroyed. It's strength is in the ability to make them run away. Although I do agree that the energy cost should be lessened by 25 or so. Why do so many Terran's not understand this? It is literally impossible to approach a Thor being guarded by a Raven with enough energy for HSM. I dread the day Terrans on ladder start doing anything other than Thor/Marine and incorporate Ravens into their builds. Ravens shut down such a large percentage of the Zerg arsenal. PDD: Possibly the best spell in the game. Rivals Fungal Growth for its game-changing effect. Auto-Turret: Better in pretty much every way than Infested Terran HSM: Herp Derp use it on Drones | ||
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proxY_
United States1561 Posts
There's no reason to go mass raven but one or two is almost a must in my mind. As far as hsm goes, I need to see more of it's use before I'm sold. As of right now I think it's too easy to dodge it but I can really only think of 2 high level games (qxc vs idrA at MLG, and Bratok vs Demuslim awhile ago) where a lot of them were used. It may be the best counter to the muta clump but I'm not sold that a really good zerg player would let themselves get hit by it. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
Imagine if Zerg in BW was strong enough to be " defiler and dark swarm ? pff, i don't need that to win " However, when Terran will find some build that let them make more ghost or ravens, it will be so annoying to deal with. And so good to watch in a match. Raven are a really good " Show " unit. | ||
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Benshin88
United States183 Posts
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Punic
United States152 Posts
In turn the viking vs viking battles turned into a raven PDD placement battle | ||
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
Also I believe we saw less Ravens in the past, because terrans got so many easier ways to win... | ||
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ganil
253 Posts
They don't realise how hard and long it is to mass and uppgrade them without dying before you get a good amount of them. And even at this point, fungal growth / hydralisks shut down their harass while ultra (and zergs will have fully uppgraded ultra once you got your 'mass' of raven) kill turrets easily. HSM is USELESS ! At best you can make the muta ball fly away with it. If the zerg is good, the only muta to run away will be the targeted one. It's useless in every other situation. 2 tanks shoot with 6 range that you can dodge for 125 energy on super expensive units ? no thx | ||
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ven
Germany332 Posts
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
Source: Jason Lee Why do so many Terran's not understand this? It is literally impossible to approach a Thor being guarded by a Raven with enough energy for HSM. I dread the day Terrans on ladder start doing anything other than Thor/Marine and incorporate Ravens into their builds. Ravens shut down such a large percentage of the Zerg arsenal. PDD: Possibly the best spell in the game. Rivals Fungal Growth for its game-changing effect. Auto-Turret: Better in pretty much every way than Infested Terran HSM: Herp Derp use it on Drones Oh gee yeah you're right, a 100/200 cost unit with 150/150 upgrade that takes an insane amount of time is awesome because I can make mutas run away. They will never ever fly back 5 seconds later when the HSM is gone because I will totally have another 125 energy just lying around on my 200 gas unit to make them fly away again fk yeah! PDD does so much against ling baneling ultra right? Oh wait I forgot, every zerg goes roach/hydra/muta cause that's what you should use against Terran  PDD is good but it doesn't even approach fungal growth. Especially not in the TvZ matchup. Auto-Turret: Good spell, no argument here HSM: Good thing zergs aren't the most mobile units in the game right? herrp derp auto-turrets >>> HSM if you just wanna kill drones and they don't take up the whole energy bar of your expensive ass unit. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Also, if you seeker missile clumps of vikings in air fights, if your opponent has BCS, and you have just mass vikings/ravens, he has to run, while you just kill the BCS, and re-accumulate more vikings. it's real tricky, but ravens have always been good TvT. And the PDD helps mech vs marauders as well. TvZ...it can be really good...but accumulating ravens and the 125 energy with an army is incredibly hard without being rolled. It's too bad they got scared and nerfed HSM damage radius in beta...one of the dumbest nerfs ever. It was another one of those nerfs gearing SC2 to be a game of "I have more units than my opponent," rather than, "i can out micro my opponent." | ||
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MichaelJLowell
United States610 Posts
On October 21 2010 17:06 krell wrote: Right now they're kinda like void rays. If you get enough to can wreak havoc. But if you have less than 6 their usefulness is iffy. That's not to say that if you are lucky enough to have two ravens with energy for HSM you won't be able to do terrible terrible damage. It's just that there are so many better ways to use time and ressources right now Gonna start toying with the idea of using Autoturrets as protective walls. They have about sixty percent of the health per grid block of a Bunker, stick around for four minutes with the upgrade, and work immediately. Definitely something a macro player would love to have. On October 22 2010 01:48 Graven wrote: That doesn't really work. As a Zerg player, the first pack of Muta's is going to hit your base long before you get a Raven with HSM up. Without Thors, you simply can't defend the harassment effectively. I suppose you could switch to some Ravens afterward though, but it would be a tough balancing act. Not if you play Double Rax and save your Gas, which is effectively what most Zergs are doing to get to Mutalisks, anyway. At worst, you just parlay the Ravens into a form of detection to deal with Roaches and Creep Tumors. Either way, I've found it pretty futile to play against Zerg without securing the first expansion quite early. "Zerg needs to be up an expansion to win" is the issue more than anything. | ||
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