EPTBlizzard, you've nerfed terran lots, so now please do something to encourage the use of HSM, do it for e-sports, even tho it might lead to lots of nerds dying because they held their breath too long! (stupid extended time upgrades
)A look at the Raven's role in TvZ - Page 8
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SunTzuEU
Sweden221 Posts
Blizzard, you've nerfed terran lots, so now please do something to encourage the use of HSM, do it for e-sports, even tho it might lead to lots of nerds dying because they held their breath too long! (stupid extended time upgrades ) | ||
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
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MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
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wodan46
United States7 Posts
However, I've been wondering whether or not, when rushing Protoss with 2 Starport early cloaking Banshees, whether or not I should build a Raven in lieu of cloaking. Cloaking, they can detect. PDD, I can deflect the next 20 Stalker shots in a large AOE, and Stalkers barely beat their weight in Banshees as it is. Shouldn't be that hard to time. Get 1 Raven+1 Banshee first, then 2 Banshees, then attack. It takes about 86 seconds for the Raven to finish charging, which means that it will have 26 seconds left to go when its time to march off to visit the enemy base. | ||
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Grond
599 Posts
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TzTz
Germany511 Posts
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Karthane
United States1183 Posts
3 reasons - 1. I'm always trying to spread creep. 2. Almost always use banelings 3. Almost always use mutas Ravens + HSM pretty much eliminate 3 . I feel like, especially now with so many Terrans saying it is an imba matchup in Zergs favor, they should really experiment with the Raven more. | ||
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InfiniteIce
United States794 Posts
I fear the day when raven becomes popular... Mobile detection for terran is very good TvZ. So the OP was a lot about abilities, but really it's the mobile detection I think has the biggest impact on TvZ. As you said PDD requires multiple casts to really be effective, hydras can snipe one. Due to all the reasons you listed above, The spells aren't really a concern in my ZvT play, but the creep tumor killing abilities are. | ||
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arnold(soTa)
Sweden352 Posts
You dont need to upgrade anything for it to be extremly usefull, PDD is awsome against muttas, but its good just for the ability to detect baneling bombs and destroy creep.. Im calling it right now, every terran in the future will have atleast one raven in tvz. the OP is just being negative... look at it from a zergs perspective and you see how frightening a raven can be, creep is ESSENTIAL to win in zvt..I rarely post here anymore but this had to be said.. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
toss dont really have a spell caster i can directly compare it to | ||
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Slakter
Sweden1947 Posts
On November 04 2010 08:44 MangoTango wrote: If people used burrowed Banelings or burrowed Roaches more, the Raven would be used more, I guarantee it. As it is right now with the "metagame" (every time you mention that word you´re gonna piss someone off!) roaches really dont have any place in ZvT unless it´s like really late game. Takes too much gas from the muta-production | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
TvZ agreed not so much without the gimmicky strat, although I feel like Seeker Missile still has some potential, if not simply forcing the enemy to retreat in engagements giving T some free shots at the Z. | ||
Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
On November 04 2010 08:44 MangoTango wrote: If people used burrowed Banelings or burrowed Roaches more, the Raven would be used more, I guarantee it. Actually burrowed Banelings are very popular in Korea it seems, and getting a Raven before pushing is getting more and more standard. Getting a single Raven to clean the map from creep tumors can be incredibly good too. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
And for those massed mutas you can use a thor trap. Building a weak spot at the edge of the base with some towers he will focus+ a few supply depots so mutas stack. Then move the thors a bit in range and 5 waves of rockets just eleminate all mutas. As for the raven directly. A lot of upgrades working here. Duration, building armor and range, energie, heat seeker. It is really a long game caster. And most terrans don't tech up even late game. Imo seeker missiles need alot of timing training and so on and atm terrans seems to be happy with what they have atm ^^. | ||
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
It's like too easy to dodge. They could only be used to hit something when the hostile is coming towards you. | ||
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Floundering
United Kingdom25 Posts
On November 04 2010 08:57 wodan46 wrote: Raven has two strong tricks. 1st off, its a flying detector, albeit more expensive than the other two. 2nd off, it can use PDD to deflect up to 40 projectile attacks under optimal circumstances. Sentry Turret and Seeker Missile are both overcosted and easy to work around most of the time. However, I've been wondering whether or not, when rushing Protoss with 2 Starport early cloaking Banshees, whether or not I should build a Raven in lieu of cloaking. Cloaking, they can detect. PDD, I can deflect the next 20 Stalker shots in a large AOE, and Stalkers barely beat their weight in Banshees as it is. Shouldn't be that hard to time. Get 1 Raven+1 Banshee first, then 2 Banshees, then attack. It takes about 86 seconds for the Raven to finish charging, which means that it will have 26 seconds left to go when its time to march off to visit the enemy base. I like this idea! Does sound better than cloakig. Although, IIRC sentries can shoot down the PDD... and they'll probably have a few lurking around somewhere? Guess they bump themselves up the raven target priority list. | ||
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Mentor
Germany219 Posts
Just give ut some time, and until then, watch BratOk games, 'cause he loves Ravens. | ||
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
But it would be unfair to make our mobile detector any easier to get because we already have scans, plus the Raven is such a crazy good spellcaster even without the detection. | ||
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SugarBear
United States842 Posts
On October 21 2010 16:54 krell wrote: Ravens are rarely used in any matchup, they popup every now and then in TvP for observer or DT detection as well as PDD placement vs stalkers. But in TvT and TvZ their use is almost inexistent, except for the recent gimmick strat of massing a critical mass of them. These are a few points that I believe explain its underuse in TvZ, where a lot of its abilities could come in very handy. The raven is an extremely costly unit : 100m/200 gas, plus the starport w/tech lab addon which you would ideally trade for a reactor. Raven's are extremely effective against massed up groups of mutalisks and occasionally roaches. HSM can absolutely devastate a closely packed flock of mutas. Here's the problem. If your enemy has mutas, you had better either have mass MMM or a few thors to counter. If you go the MMM route, you will need the starport and gas to pump out dropships and marauders. Additionally, MMM is an extremely mobile force with which the raven has a hard time keeping up. Additionally, the HSM is rather dangerous to use with such a mix of units as you will most likely blow up a fair portion of your own army. (Due to the small radii of marines and marauders). The other army mixture you would use them in is mech. But no midgame T can really afford to have both ravens and thors. Even despite all these disadvantages, Raven would be seen more if their abilities weren't so prohibitively expensive and drawn out. Your raven will pop out with just enough energy for a mobile turret (only decent in larger numbers). You need to get the 150/150 upgrade to start with 75, which still leaves you far short of PDD or HSM (which you also have to pay 150/150 for). In matchups like TvZ, you can't afford to wait 3 minutes to get a raven up. It's all about macroing your forces back up and counter-attacking or defending. The raven is a nice thought, but its combat readiness needs to be accelerated or the efficacy of its spells in small numbers increased significantly significantly. To recap: the raven is not used because : - sacrifice of dropship production - ultra long charge up time for HSM and PDD - high cost of upgrades (which make it barely useable) - heavy gas investment (even though this is expected for such a techy unit). Post your thoughts I use a bio build for TvZ. Actually, I'm a fan of using the starport for a tech lab to get out 1 fast raven for detection, and then switching with the factory for a reactor to pump out vikings/medivacs and then using the tech lab on the factory to get blue flame for hellions to deal with zerglings easier. Zerglings/banelings are the major threat to a bio force (unless you skip ghosts in which case infestors are your biggest problem) and blue flame hellions make them much easier to deal with + cost no gas (other than for the one-time upgrade). There's no reason not to get the raven or the hellion upgrade because I always see pro/high-level terran players build up a gas reserve of 1k+ by the end of the game. Terran can easily get all the tech it needs + upgrades with bio-oriented builds, so SPEND THAT GAS. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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