Ravens are rarely used in any matchup, they popup every now and then in TvP for observer or DT detection as well as PDD placement vs stalkers. But in TvT and TvZ their use is almost inexistent, except for the recent gimmick strat of massing a critical mass of them.
These are a few points that I believe explain its underuse in TvZ, where a lot of its abilities could come in very handy. The raven is an extremely costly unit : 100m/200 gas, plus the starport w/tech lab addon which you would ideally trade for a reactor. Raven's are extremely effective against massed up groups of mutalisks and occasionally roaches. HSM can absolutely devastate a closely packed flock of mutas.
Here's the problem. If your enemy has mutas, you had better either have mass MMM or a few thors to counter. If you go the MMM route, you will need the starport and gas to pump out dropships and marauders. Additionally, MMM is an extremely mobile force with which the raven has a hard time keeping up. Additionally, the HSM is rather dangerous to use with such a mix of units as you will most likely blow up a fair portion of your own army. (Due to the small radii of marines and marauders).
The other army mixture you would use them in is mech. But no midgame T can really afford to have both ravens and thors.
Even despite all these disadvantages, Raven would be seen more if their abilities weren't so prohibitively expensive and drawn out. Your raven will pop out with just enough energy for a mobile turret (only decent in larger numbers). You need to get the 150/150 upgrade to start with 75, which still leaves you far short of PDD or HSM (which you also have to pay 150/150 for).
In matchups like TvZ, you can't afford to wait 3 minutes to get a raven up. It's all about macroing your forces back up and counter-attacking or defending.
The raven is a nice thought, but its combat readiness needs to be accelerated or the efficacy of its spells in small numbers increased significantly significantly.
To recap: the raven is not used because :
- sacrifice of dropship production - ultra long charge up time for HSM and PDD - high cost of upgrades (which make it barely useable) - heavy gas investment (even though this is expected for such a techy unit).
I agree, i want to use HSM's vs banelings, but i just can't because it's too much of a damned investment, and that HSM's take fucking 125 energy which should be reduced because right now it's fairly lolworthy, as HSM's take the second most useless skill, right after Thor's strike cannons
When they decided that "HSM's shouldn't be that good anymore" they might as well have lowered the energy cost a little.
edit: If hydra's where ever used i wouldve gotten a couple for PDD since it doesn't require a upgrade (lol, why not though, it's much better then HSM)
Ravens are great. Seeker Missiles are costly, but they're a great deterrent to the Mutalisk Ball of Death™. If the enemy is playing Muta/Ling/Baneling in the mid-to-late game, use the Seeker Missiles to scare off the Mutalisks and start harassing ground forces. I presume the reason Ravens aren't getting more play is that their application is much more complicated than anyone's wrapped their head around. Still think they're the next "omg imba" unit.
First of all, "raven's" are used very often in TvT (I don't know what games you've been watching), both to detect cloaked banshees and as support against marauders with PDD. They are not underused in TvP either. Arguably they are only underused in TvZ.
They are a great support unit overall. PDD is a sick spell, autoturrets are great for harassing, and they detect. The reason they aren't as useful in TvZ is twofold: 1) most zerg units aren't affected by PDD, and the ones that are can be countered easily (hydras) or can pick off ravens too easily (muta); and 2) you don't need detection against zerg (unless they go burrowed roaches). HSMs could stand an improvement (or upgrade) that makes them never miss, but other than that I don't think they should be changed.
On October 21 2010 17:01 MichaelJLowell wrote: Still think they're the next "omg imba" unit.
Right now they're kinda like void rays. If you get enough to can wreak havoc. But if you have less than 6 their usefulness is iffy.
That's not to say that if you are lucky enough to have two ravens with energy for HSM you won't be able to do terrible terrible damage. It's just that there are so many better ways to use time and ressources right now
When Zergs start getting really good about Creep Tumor spread, Ravens will get more popular to make contesting the spread of creep easier for Terrans. Terrans don't need many for this, but that's going to be a, probably the, major use for them as play gets more refined.
You're right imagist. I actually do use them for that when Z gets over zealous on the creep spread. As for their use in TvT, I haven't seen that many games where they have been used for PDD. vs banshees most people tend to use their dual OCs to scan.
Or perhaps I haven't been watching the right games
well yes they are not used because of the time investment and the gass cost.
But they are not useless and it does not cost you much.
i cant recalll which game but at MLG DC(correct me on this one if im wrong) there was this pro using ravens and they won him the game versus a zerg so you shouldnt say that ravens need a buff to be useful.
Ravens are one of the coolest units ingame and is really usefull in all the matchups, and if you go the 111 build(destiny cloud fistbuild) you dont really have to commit to them, They are a support unit so i woud recomend getting them on 2+ bases when you can support an army and ravens. Just having 3 ravens in an army is exceptional great if you micro them correctly.
and yes i belive you can wait to get a raven out in all matchups you only need to know timing windows and when you can afford to get the raven timingwise.
And yes a buff would have been cool for the ravens as the mana costs are a bit too much at times but its nothing critical for the ravens usage.
If hsm was even remotely viable due to its upgrade and extreme energy cost i think they would be used more. As it is now though mutas can bait and run from the first one and know that unless t invest anoter 200 gas there will be no threat from it for quite some time. tvp it is quite amazing with the banshee push and in tvt if both are going vikings+tanks one can make the difference in air superiority for the whole game. I guess i dont understand why the ability costs so much energy and an upgrade and is easily dodgable if used alone. It's a pretty much useless ability in tvp since a templar can pretty much one shot a raven if they have enough energy to use the ability.
On October 21 2010 17:10 Celadan wrote: i cant recalll which game but at MLG DC(correct me on this one if im wrong) there was this pro using ravens and they won him the game versus a zerg so you shouldnt say that ravens need a buff to be useful.
Check that game again and you'll see that HSM actually didn't kill anything.
HSM was extremely good in early beta, but then blizzard nerfed it and now it's useless. raven+upgrade are extremely expensive and then there is energy cost which is really high. Add to that range 6 on HSM and not that big of a damage and you get ability which will never be used.
As for ravens in general, they have their use. PDD against toss is really effective. In TvT if you get to air battle with mass vikings, you will want PDD. Auto turrets aren't that bad either, they can be used either as defensive thing or in some cases to attack opponents mineral line for harrass.
Ravens aren't core units so they won't see that much use as some other units, but they have nice abilites (pdd is great), but HSM is completely broken now.
On October 21 2010 17:01 Nazza wrote: Seeker Missile - "Let's make an ability that people can RUN AWAY FROM!"
That's the whole point of the Seeker missile...set it on the pack of mutas that are magic boxing your thors and they have to run away most of the time, or get utterly destroyed. It's strength is in the ability to make them run away.
Although I do agree that the energy cost should be lessened by 25 or so.
Trouble with seeker missile is not that it's bad, it's that it's redundant because siege tank (vs ground) and thor (vs air) splash essentially does the same thing with better range, far less micro and no energy cost.
Ravens are still useful vs Z, but mostly for spotting creep tumours and burrow, they're more of a situational unit with a couple of nice bonus abilities (PDD and turret)
Ive seen some good use of seeker missiles on high level games, qxc vs IdrA most recently.
I think, because its so slow, it forces more of a "force Zerg out of position" purpose, unless the Zerg makes a mistake and you get a lot of kills with it. Either way, lategame it'll be most likely worth the cost.
I use ravens in almost all my TvZ and they are very effective until the zerg gets mass roaches and ultras with armor uppgrades because auto turrets are so useful for drops and harass or even to support a front attack.
I use a 1/1/2 build order with marine drop + 3 ravens on main ( or cliff on LT ) followed by a an expo and it is really powerful at my level i.e: 1100-1500 diamond, dunno about higher levels.
Turrets >> Lings / bannelings / Mutas PDD >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mutas. ( I'm so happy when the zerg makes mutas <3 )
My transition is an expo and more rax with tech labs if he is pumping roaches. Depending on his army composition i may build more ravens and get uppgrades.
Its worth noting that Point defense drone neutralizes attacks from: Queens, Hydralisks, Mutalisks, and Corruptors.
If you are choosing to go heavy air as Terran, PDD is invaluable, because it literally shuts down all Zerg Anti-air.
Theres a thread in the forums about a guy who does some Starship troopers knock off where he does 2 base turtle and eventually has mass BC/Raven and floats to the outside of the map. Zerg mines out the entire map and can't touch the BC's because of mass PDD.
I do agree theyre underused. I think blizzards intention was to make them usable in TvZ as an opposing spellcaster to Infestor, but for now theyre not used because they are so damn slow hence being killed by muta in no time and their spells kinda do not compensate for this. But lets hope we're all wrong and one day some korean player introduces whole new approach and Raven will be usable again.
On October 21 2010 18:25 baph wrote: I do agree theyre underused. I think blizzards intention was to make them usable in TvZ as an opposing spellcaster to Infestor, but for now theyre not used because they are so damn slow hence being killed by muta in no time and their spells kinda do not compensate for this. But lets hope we're all wrong and one day some korean player introduces whole new approach and Raven will be usable again.
If you want to use Ravens vs mutas you have to use the PDD. They are great vs mutas actually.
Increasing their speed to the same as a medivac (from 2.25 to 2.5) would be a nice change, makes them slightly more mobile and easier to keep with your army.
On a related note, does a HSM hitting air units do splash damage to ground units as well? Or only air targets, and vice versa.
On October 21 2010 18:25 baph wrote: I do agree theyre underused. I think blizzards intention was to make them usable in TvZ as an opposing spellcaster to Infestor, but for now theyre not used because they are so damn slow hence being killed by muta in no time and their spells kinda do not compensate for this. But lets hope we're all wrong and one day some korean player introduces whole new approach and Raven will be usable again.
If you want to use Ravens vs mutas you have to use the PDD. They are great vs mutas actually.
I tried it few times, it's good when youre attacking since zerg can't just go away out of PDD area, yet I still think Ravens are not cost effective enough or maybe they havent been discovered enough.
On October 21 2010 17:09 SovSov wrote: Metagame metagame metagame.
They're already getting popular in TvT if you've been watching more recent matches.
Metagame has nothing to do with it.
And yes, they are very good in TvT, mainly viking fights and marauder fights
Yes it does. The fact that Ravens are becoming more popular in TvT alone shows this. Unit potential and compositions have yet to be discovered or popularized.
qxc vs idra game 2? That GSL game with the marine/raven/banshee? Raven's just haven't gotten much of a chance yet, they've got amazing abilities. Medivacs as healers are underrated, for in combat healing, usually the healing they do is much worse than having an extra marauder, unless units are targetting them. Although they're great when you are easily winning the fight, because you lose almost nothing, in fights with things like banelings they become really ineffective. They are good for out of combat healing and drops, but you don't need THAT many medivacs.
Usually a raven is used for mobile detection, though with scan, many terrans opt to just skip ravens. However, its detection and ability to cast PDD is just such a tide-turner in battles.
On October 21 2010 17:09 SovSov wrote: Metagame metagame metagame.
They're already getting popular in TvT if you've been watching more recent matches.
Metagame has nothing to do with it.
And yes, they are very good in TvT, mainly viking fights and marauder fights
Yes it does. The fact that Ravens are becoming more popular in TvT alone shows this. Unit potential and compositions have yet to be discovered or popularized.
It blows my mind how underused ravens are for clearing creep. Instead of sacrificing a 300 mineral MULE to scan for creep tumors, you can use a 100m 200 gas Raven to detect them all day long.
Also, are really 100/200 so incredibly expensive for a raven? An infestor is only 50 gas cheaper.
On October 21 2010 17:09 SovSov wrote: Metagame metagame metagame.
They're already getting popular in TvT if you've been watching more recent matches.
Metagame has nothing to do with it.
And yes, they are very good in TvT, mainly viking fights and marauder fights
Yes it does. The fact that Ravens are becoming more popular in TvT alone shows this. Unit potential and compositions have yet to be discovered or popularized.
Metagame: you are using it wrong
How is that not a result of metagame? Marauder/viking fights became popular, Ravens are used as a result to help it.
On October 21 2010 17:09 SovSov wrote: Metagame metagame metagame.
They're already getting popular in TvT if you've been watching more recent matches.
Metagame has nothing to do with it.
And yes, they are very good in TvT, mainly viking fights and marauder fights
Yes it does. The fact that Ravens are becoming more popular in TvT alone shows this. Unit potential and compositions have yet to be discovered or popularized.
Metagame: you are using it wrong
How is that not a result of metagame? Marauder/viking fights became popular, Ravens are used as a result to help it.
On October 21 2010 17:09 SovSov wrote: Metagame metagame metagame.
They're already getting popular in TvT if you've been watching more recent matches.
Metagame has nothing to do with it.
And yes, they are very good in TvT, mainly viking fights and marauder fights
Yes it does. The fact that Ravens are becoming more popular in TvT alone shows this. Unit potential and compositions have yet to be discovered or popularized.
Metagame: you are using it wrong
How is that not a result of metagame? Marauder/viking fights became popular, Ravens are used as a result to help it.
Ok, I misused the term (it's meaning is different in games like DotA/HoN, even if "incorrect"). How does that make anything of what I said any less valid?
Hunter seeker missile is very much worth its cost as can be seen in the idra vs QXC game on xel naga caverns from MLG DC. YES you can run away from it but not if you want to save your expansion lol xD.
On October 21 2010 18:35 doubled wrote: Increasing their speed to the same as a medivac (from 2.25 to 2.5) would be a nice change, makes them slightly more mobile and easier to keep with your army.
On a related note, does a HSM hitting air units do splash damage to ground units as well? Or only air targets, and vice versa.
why does every terran player want all of their units to have the same speed so you can just clump them 24/7?
seriously. micro your army better plz like the other races
ps - ravens are awesome, people just havent learned how to use them
On October 21 2010 18:35 doubled wrote: Increasing their speed to the same as a medivac (from 2.25 to 2.5) would be a nice change, makes them slightly more mobile and easier to keep with your army.
On a related note, does a HSM hitting air units do splash damage to ground units as well? Or only air targets, and vice versa.
why does every terran player want all of their units to have the same speed so you can just clump them 24/7?
seriously. micro your army better plz like the other races
ps - ravens are awesome, people just havent learned how to use them
because terran has the slowest and least mobile force out of the three races. flanking and getting advantagous positioning is already a major pain in the ass.
On October 21 2010 17:09 SovSov wrote: Metagame metagame metagame.
They're already getting popular in TvT if you've been watching more recent matches.
Metagame has nothing to do with it.
And yes, they are very good in TvT, mainly viking fights and marauder fights
Yes it does. The fact that Ravens are becoming more popular in TvT alone shows this. Unit potential and compositions have yet to be discovered or popularized.
Metagame: you are using it wrong
How is that not a result of metagame? Marauder/viking fights became popular, Ravens are used as a result to help it.
Ok, I misused the term (it's meaning is different in games like DotA/HoN, even if "incorrect"). How does that make anything of what I said any less valid?
I play zerg (1800 Diamond) so I may be mistaken with this thinking. However, I feel like getting one raven when going bio against zerg is absolutely worth it. This is because, as zerg, I almost always go for muta/ling/bling when terrnas are playing bio and use burrowed banelings (and of course unburrow them on top of the marines). Very few terrans who go Bio against me build a raven. Then their marines disappear when I use my baneling mines and they typically nerd rage before leaving the game. Using scans repeatedly seems even more costly then building one or two ravens. The problem seems to be that Terrans want one starport with reactor for double medivac production. I guess this is just one more reason bio is increasingly unpopular in TvZ and more terrans are moving to mech play.
Ravens + dropships is epic combo. In a TvT one time on scrap station I was going 2 rax expand vs. 1/1/1 siege tnak viking. I barely held off their first push then macro'd up for a raven and 4 or 5 medivacs full of units. I'm loading my dudes up in my medivacs and my opponent scans right where I'm loading.. so obviously he knows a drop is ocming. So I unload, pretending I changing my plans. Then when the scan ends I load back up and said, "f it, im goin in." His vikings met my medivacs half way across but PDD saved the day and I was able to unload all my troops into his base and wraek havoc!!!!!
On October 21 2010 17:10 Celadan wrote: i cant recalll which game but at MLG DC(correct me on this one if im wrong) there was this pro using ravens and they won him the game versus a zerg so you shouldnt say that ravens need a buff to be useful.
Check that game again and you'll see that HSM actually didn't kill anything.
Yeah getting a shitton of Mutas to 5 hp isn't "killing anything". Idra obviously GGd solely because Qxc was stim kiting the blings.
On October 21 2010 16:57 Snowfield wrote: I agree, i want to use HSM's vs banelings, but i just can't because it's too much of a damned investment, and that HSM's take fucking 125 energy which should be reduced because right now it's fairly lolworthy, as HSM's take the second most useless skill, right after Thor's strike cannons
When they decided that "HSM's shouldn't be that good anymore" they might as well have lowered the energy cost a little.
edit: If hydra's where ever used i wouldve gotten a couple for PDD since it doesn't require a upgrade (lol, why not though, it's much better then HSM)
That might make the cheesy all in only raven build a bit too strong if the energy were lowered to anything 100 or below you wouldn't want a single raven being able to launch 2 at full energy.
Just a thought for the raven in general what about using it in a banshee rush you would have to get both of your geysers very fast. But I believe PDD not only blocks hydra shots but queen shots as well as spore shots which would allow your banshees to do more damage possibly allow them to kill the AA.
edit:
On October 21 2010 21:28 Elmo wrote: Just give HSM some range so it can play kind of the same role as irradiate : make a unit run out of her army ball.
if the range were increased the spell would probably have to be redesigned IMO as of right now its pretty easy even for a novice to tell the whole group of whatever run away select the one unit being targeted single it out to run more and tell the rest of the units to go back and fight. If the range were increased said novice would not even have to retreat the whole clump they could single it out very easy.
On October 21 2010 21:58 IdrA wrote: ravens and ghosts are both sick good and theyre gonna see a lot more use as soon as terrans realize the old bullshit doesnt work anymore
True, i think they are gonna get standart to get before moving out with mech, since burrowed roaches (that arent moving) can ruin your day. (btw gl in r32)
On October 21 2010 20:22 Ghad wrote: It blows my mind how underused ravens are for clearing creep. Instead of sacrificing a 300 mineral MULE to scan for creep tumors, you can use a 100m 200 gas Raven to detect them all day long.
Also, are really 100/200 so incredibly expensive for a raven? An infestor is only 50 gas cheaper.
Well, when banelings are in play, having more minerals over gas doesn't really buy you much.
On October 21 2010 21:49 trevf wrote: Ravens + dropships is epic combo. In a TvT one time on scrap station I was going 2 rax expand vs. 1/1/1 siege tnak viking. I barely held off their first push then macro'd up for a raven and 4 or 5 medivacs full of units. I'm loading my dudes up in my medivacs and my opponent scans right where I'm loading.. so obviously he knows a drop is ocming. So I unload, pretending I changing my plans. Then when the scan ends I load back up and said, "f it, im goin in." His vikings met my medivacs half way across but PDD saved the day and I was able to unload all my troops into his base and wraek havoc!!!!!
On October 21 2010 20:22 Ghad wrote: It blows my mind how underused ravens are for clearing creep. Instead of sacrificing a 300 mineral MULE to scan for creep tumors, you can use a 100m 200 gas Raven to detect them all day long.
Also, are really 100/200 so incredibly expensive for a raven? An infestor is only 50 gas cheaper.
Well, when banelings are in play, having more minerals over gas doesn't really buy you much.
Really depends on what type of build you are going if you are heavy on the minerals or you zerg buddy has been doing good at worker harass the mules will be needed. After the first couple of mules a typically start saving some energy for scans. If gas is limiting my production and not minerals I will typically start saving energy sooner. In short if gas is your limiting factor then saving OC energy I would say is a good idea. If gas isnt your limiting factor than I would say get out the raven for detection so you can use more mules.
i think that most people still dont fully understand the role and use of the HSM. just forcing your opponent to run away his troops is insanely useful because it gives you control over his troop movement and deployment as well as the location of a battle. its not an offensive spell, its a *defensive* spell, like all raven abilities.
I think a lot of people here may be vastly overestimating the power of Seeker Missile. The splash radius on that thing is absolutely pathetic. Look at the visualization on Liquipedia:
That's enough to kill a couple Zerglings or Banelings, but so is a tank shot--really, the spell is basically two tank shots on the same target with a slightly larger radius (at least against Zerg whose light units will be killed by either), which is horribly inefficient for 125 energy. Against mutas, if they are clumped, Thors deal the same guaranteed damage in two shots, and if they are not clumped, the spell is likely going to only hit the off-target mutas for 25 damage.
Casting HSM on a baneling... that is just granting this specific baneling super powers. It's not like they are headed into your army anyhow and between the lunch and the HSM starting to accelerate, it takes forever.
Also HSM does shit against magic box mutas, because the radius of the splash is the same as the one from the thor. So you bring one muta in the red and give 20 dmg to a few. Not worth it for sure.
In general, HSM is rarely worth it over PDD or turret. As a damage ability, storm is way more efficient. Mainly because the affected radius is much better. Bring the radius up, then you can even lower the damage.
On October 21 2010 22:14 RoKetha wrote: I think a lot of people here may be vastly overestimating the power of Seeker Missile. The splash radius on that thing is absolutely pathetic. Look at the visualization on Liquipedia:
That's enough to kill a couple Zerglings or Banelings, but so is a tank shot--really, the spell is basically two tank shots on the same target with a slightly larger radius (at least against Zerg whose light units will be killed by either), which is horribly inefficient for 125 energy. Against mutas, if they are clumped, Thors deal the same guaranteed damage in two shots, and if they are not clumped, the spell is likely going to only hit the off-target mutas for 25 damage.
HSM is strong IF IT HITS. the problem i have found (or advantage in my case since i play zerg) is that HSM is unbearably easy to avoid. HSM is so insanely slow that u can easily split up your army to reduce dmg or just run units away untill HSM runs out of time and duds out. splitting up ur army is the best method since it still alows ur army to keep atking if they are at an advantage.
i dont know if anyone else has seen this but there is a way to easily tell which target the HSM is targeting because of how slow it is. because of this u can run that single unit out to avoid splash dmg of your own units. because of this the terrans usually have to get there ravens in close or sometimes near on top of the enemy army so that HSM hits the target faster which in turn puts the raven in danger. but this is just what i have noticed from terrans using HSM against me. its devastating as shit if the missle hits, but if u can avoid it u are fine which is fairly easy to do. especially as zerg since all units with the exception of hydras are relativly fast off creep and even faster on creep.
HSM is damn good against broodlords and corruptors tho because of how slow they are. broodlords cant hope to outrun HSM, BUT you can still spread the broodlords out to reduce dmg fairly easily so ya... and HSM against banelings is kinda stupid... there a melee unit and they still do dmg when they die and are pretty damn fast with speed upgrade. so using HSM against banelings and lings is pretty pointless.
as for PDD, well i think terrans should use this more often. anytime i get the rare occasion of a terran massing MMM +ravens and tanks i get devastated unless im going bling+ultra.
PDD shuts down muta play fairly easily and makes hydras worthless. i dont know if PDD still doesnt block roach shots because last i checked it did not, but im sure they fixed that by now. but i guess i can understand why terrans dont use PDD against zerg much because most zerg go pure melee against terran with the only ranged unit being mutas.
It's been my hope to extend Raven use into TvZ specifically to HSM banelings, but it just doesn't feel strong enough compared to other options. The two strengths of the Raven in TvZ are you can clear creep easily and throw down a PDD to prevent mutalisk damage. HSM is useless. Half the time when I'm HSMing banelings, I have to charge in and the splash damage from my own missile damages my Raven. What's worse is the banelings move so fast compared to the missile that if you try and blow up the banelings before they engage your army, the banelings will reach your army in time and then the HSM kills everything you have due to HSM splash + baneling splash. Even more complaining continues because Ravens are so flimsy that infestors catching them with a fungal growth take out 45% of their health with just that one fungal.
Unless HSM gets a rebuff to it's radius to make it useful, a decrease to its casting cost to make it worth the energy, or an increase to the casting range so you don't have to charge your Raven into the middle of the Zerg army to cast it I don't see why this ability would ever be used competitively.
HSM is way too slow, it only hits if the raven is very close to mutalisks but then it would be dead pretty quickly as well. maybe make it move a little faster or make it cheaper to cast to make it worthwhile.
I've been using HSM versus Baneling/Zergling/Muta mix in a number of games versus Zerg and agree the Raven needs to be out some time in advance to charge up its energy before it's useful. In general I will make one every game (good for removing creep tumors and turrets even if HSM isn't required), but once it does I've been called some pretty interesting names for nuking their army with 2 HSMs before the Banelings ever reach my Marine front.
I opt for cutting out a few medivacs, and also, if I choose to go Banshee harassment, keep the investment here to 1 Banshee without cloak, because no cloak means HSM is basically a small additional investment and tbh HSM will be more useful in general than a cloaked Banshee which is more a unit I have at a period of time and not much beyond that.
I go mass Marine/Raven like SK Terran and have 3 SP off 3 bases pumping 2 ravens and 1 Medivac. Then I just kill all the zerg's creep and camp outside their natural and deny bases.
I don't see what's wrong with it. You can dump all your gas into them and kill all the zerg's gas units. Once you get a critical mass, they just start mass HSM or paving hte map with auto turrets.
As much as i love theorycrafting (not very) id like for some of the people in favor of raven/HSM is TvZ to actually try to implement them in some games and post.
PS: remember that HSM does friendly fire and the banelings don't (why not?)
Hunter Seeker Missiles are from nowhere, since they don't exist.
They were called HSM in alpha/early beta, and it kinda stuck, if i called it SM, noone would understand what it was.
deal with it
ASM: I see no replays of said marine raven strategy
I think getting a raven can be well worth it. Temporarily swap a starport to a tech lab and make a single raven. It's great for keeping the creep tumors undercontrol. It's also good insurance against burrowed banelings and roaches.
On October 21 2010 17:01 Nazza wrote: Seeker Missile - "Let's make an ability that people can RUN AWAY FROM!"
That's the whole point of the Seeker missile...set it on the pack of mutas that are magic boxing your thors and they have to run away most of the time, or get utterly destroyed. It's strength is in the ability to make them run away.
Although I do agree that the energy cost should be lessened by 25 or so.
Except most of the times, the magic boxed mutas will be on top of your army. It'd probably hurt your bio more than the mutas because of how tightly they group up.
On October 21 2010 17:58 Cyber_Cheese wrote: if anything, the ravens turret is OP, based on the infested terran
You mean the fact that infested terrans deal the same damage and that they cost half as much right (and unlike the auto turret, they get damage upgrades)? Forget that auto turrets have a long lifespan, zerglings and banelings would have a long lifespan too, if they didn't get killed.
On October 21 2010 17:01 Nazza wrote: Seeker Missile - "Let's make an ability that people can RUN AWAY FROM!"
Banelings - "Let's make unit that people can RUN AWAY FROM!"
Nothing wrong with it.
Except the fact that banelings move faster than most things, and seeker missiles move slow or equal to most things, which means they miss. The only time I ever saw a baneling miss, was when its controller misclicked and the baneling went passed the ramp, instead of up it.
On October 21 2010 17:58 Cyber_Cheese wrote: if anything, the ravens turret is OP, based on the infested terran
You mean the fact that infested terrans deal the same damage and that they cost half as much right (and unlike the auto turret, they get damage upgrades)? Forget that auto turrets have a long lifespan, zerglings and banelings would have a long lifespan too, if they didn't get killed.
The thing is once you get enough ravens(4-5). You can create a large fields of them that Z has to run through and eventually kill.
I use Ravens every chance I get in all match ups. In fact, a prefer them to medivacs. MMM is a strong combination, but if you think about it -- plain MM with no medivacs is still a strong combo with a lot of hitpoints, as long as you got that combat shield. So I tend to skip on medivacs and get those ravens, especially in TvZ, so I can get those fucking creep tumors that spread like.... tumors. And also because having dark swarm-- I mean PDDs as Terran is just ridiculous in the "LOL" category.
On October 21 2010 17:58 Cyber_Cheese wrote: if anything, the ravens turret is OP, based on the infested terran
You mean the fact that infested terrans deal the same damage and that they cost half as much right (and unlike the auto turret, they get damage upgrades)? Forget that auto turrets have a long lifespan, zerglings and banelings would have a long lifespan too, if they didn't get killed.
The thing is once you get enough ravens(4-5). You can create a large fields of them that Z has to run through and eventually kill.
Large fields? Really? has this actually happened to you?... no wait... you actually let a Terran do this to you and you didn't punish them? If a terran player has spent 1000 gas on Ravens b4 20 minutes, you should be able to punish him really hard, because that means, that he didn't spend that gas on A) tanks, B) thors, C) medivacs... and that is a GOOD THING FOR YOU>>>
If your opponent is making a cutsie army of ravens with a bunch of 2 minute auto turrets on one spot on the map... how about you just go somewhere else? Its kinda like bunkers or siege tanks... you shouldnt attack straight into it, except that unlike the siege tanks, the auto turrets go away by them selves.
On October 21 2010 17:01 Nazza wrote: Seeker Missile - "Let's make an ability that people can RUN AWAY FROM!"
Banelings - "Let's make unit that people can RUN AWAY FROM!"
Nothing wrong with it.
? Then why not include every melee unit?
HSM (I'm keeping the H) is so far up the tech tree, makes Terran choose between throwing down a PDD or a missile, and costs so much for it's terrible effectiveness. If I'm spending 100/200 on a Raven then 150/150 on the ability, I want that money to actually guarantee me something more than making my opponent run (a unit) away.
On October 21 2010 17:58 Cyber_Cheese wrote: if anything, the ravens turret is OP, based on the infested terran
You mean the fact that infested terrans deal the same damage and that they cost half as much right (and unlike the auto turret, they get damage upgrades)? Forget that auto turrets have a long lifespan, zerglings and banelings would have a long lifespan too, if they didn't get killed.
The thing is once you get enough ravens(4-5). You can create a large fields of them that Z has to run through and eventually kill.
Large fields? Really? has this actually happened to you?... no wait... you actually let a Terran do this to you and you didn't punish them? If a terran player has spent 1000 gas on Ravens b4 20 minutes, you should be able to punish him really hard, because that means, that he didn't spend that gas on A) tanks, B) thors, C) medivacs... and that is a GOOD THING FOR YOU>>>
If your opponent is making a cutsie army of ravens with a bunch of 2 minute auto turrets on one spot on the map... how about you just go somewhere else? Its kinda like bunkers or siege tanks... you shouldnt attack straight into it, except that unlike the siege tanks, the auto turrets go away by them selves.
2 Base Raven, 2 Ports and everything else into marines. I kill creep tumors to make coutnering and taking a third harder. Then I trade armies of marines for all your units that take gas and eventually just crawl turrets all the way to your natural and start dropping HSM. ITs basically the SC2 version of SK Terran.
Its not really cutesee when you have 8 rax producing marines with stim, combat shield, and a massive cloud of ravens spamming auto turrets up to your nat and walling your ramp with turrets and then crawlling into your base. Plus I can get medivacs to drop.
Get a feeling im gonna fet flamed/banned for this but I gotta say imo the OP is just plain wrong on almost every point. Have you actually watched any games? Raven's are used frequently in all MU's, nearly always useful and relatively easy to tech towards what with swapping tech labs & reactors. I just don't agree.
On October 21 2010 17:01 Nazza wrote: Seeker Missile - "Let's make an ability that people can RUN AWAY FROM!"
Banelings - "Let's make unit that people can RUN AWAY FROM!"
Nothing wrong with it.
? Then why not include every melee unit?
HSM (I'm keeping the H) is so far up the tech tree, makes Terran choose between throwing down a PDD or a missile, and costs so much for it's terrible effectiveness. If I'm spending 100/200 on a Raven then 150/150 on the ability, I want that money to actually guarantee me something more than making my opponent run (a unit) away.
thats a valid point. Also HSM costs quite a bit of energy, so once you shot, say 2 of them, you have to either wait or have more ravens which means more gas spent.
Few ravens as support with PDD to protect banshee heavy army ? - Yes. Mass Ravens ? No. Unless you have killed all the overlords and cleared all xel'naga towers who could spot you coming. Because when they do spot you, infestors will Fungal grown ravens till they all die.
Just because they aren't used in one match up doesn't mean they are a broken unit. Also, i've seen some builds that large raven numbers to constantly harass the z with auto turrets Its pretty effective.
On October 22 2010 01:15 Panoptic wrote: Get a feeling im gonna fet flamed/banned for this but I gotta say imo the OP is just plain wrong on almost every point. Have you actually watched any games? Raven's are used frequently in all MU's, nearly always useful and relatively easy to tech towards what with swapping tech labs & reactors. I just don't agree.
^this. PDD can shut down everything essentially and I've seen it used so much. As for actual seeker missiles, those are definitely much rarer.
I've started building a raven out of my starport after medivac vs almost every matchup because of how good it is for a teching terran to have PDD. PDD lets a 1/1/1 terran hold off almost any attack that can come at that point so I can econ much harder with the PDD available for defense than if I didn't, and that in itself is worth the gas.
On October 21 2010 17:01 MichaelJLowell wrote: Ravens are great. Seeker Missiles are costly, but they're a great deterrent to the Mutalisk Ball of Death™. If the enemy is playing Muta/Ling/Baneling in the mid-to-late game, use the Seeker Missiles to scare off the Mutalisks and start harassing ground forces. I presume the reason Ravens aren't getting more play is that their application is much more complicated than anyone's wrapped their head around. Still think they're the next "omg imba" unit.
That doesn't really work. As a Zerg player, the first pack of Muta's is going to hit your base long before you get a Raven with HSM up. Without Thors, you simply can't defend the harassment effectively. I suppose you could switch to some Ravens afterward though, but it would be a tough balancing act.
I'm platinum so take from this what you will. But I think that they are already extremely powerful. I absolutely dread it when my opponent gets one. They are impossible to deal with. All of their abilities are extremely good, and they're detectors on top of it all (aka I don't get any creep).
I don't see how you can say it's not worth the cost. Sure, it would be expensive to make lots of them. But you don't need lots of them. You only need one, it's ridiculously potent.
From Zerg's perspective - It makes it so you can't have creep very far outside your base if the T is being proactive at all. - It makes it so half your units can't attack for the first 10 seconds of a fight (aka the whole fight usually) - It has an ability that can devastate basically any unit that happens to get too clumped (aka almost every single Zerg unit) - It has an ability that forces me to either lose units for nothing or evacuate the area for like 2 minutes
I honestly don't have a single answer to turrets in my minerals. No idea what you're supposed to do about that. GG every time for me.
A unit that does all that, completely turns the tides of battle, offers extremely good harass, AND detection, and you only need one to be extremely effective, ought to cost quite a bit IMO. It costs only 100 gas more than an Observer and it has way more uses. Compared to an Overseer, well it pretty much lolz in its face.
i think they're an incredibly strong unit. whenever i play terran i always get at least 5 against zerg. i kill off creep tumors, i can drop stupidly long lasting and strong turrets, nullify almost all zerg ranged attacks with PDD (the only zerg unit that can attack an active point defense drone is the infested terran), and hunter seeker missile is basically a scourge on steroids. yeah, you can run away from it, but nobody else seems to think the ability to force a muta ball to put itself way out of position is any good.
The HSM does fuck all, really, if it does not hit. I'm not spending 125 mana to chase away mutas for 15 seconds - much less, if the opponent actually knows how to split the targeted one away. T needs to keep the muta flock small, not chase them away only for it to get bigger and free up Z to get more bases.
At this point I am willing to trade BW's vessels for ravens any day. The PDD is very good sometimes, but if you don't get to use it more than once, perhaps that 200 gas is better spent on a thor (or something else that can tank AND deal damage). If you lose the battle and the ravens go down to muta snipes, then uhh, yeah, PDDs don't seem that great anymore (but are still useful nonetheless). I still think they see more use against P. Compared to DMatrix, they both have their pros and cons, cons being that Z can ignore the matrixed unit, but really if you matrix the right target, can Z actually afford to ignore it for 60 seconds?
On October 21 2010 17:01 Nazza wrote: Seeker Missile - "Let's make an ability that people can RUN AWAY FROM!"
That's the whole point of the Seeker missile...set it on the pack of mutas that are magic boxing your thors and they have to run away most of the time, or get utterly destroyed. It's strength is in the ability to make them run away.
Although I do agree that the energy cost should be lessened by 25 or so.
Why do so many Terran's not understand this? It is literally impossible to approach a Thor being guarded by a Raven with enough energy for HSM. I dread the day Terrans on ladder start doing anything other than Thor/Marine and incorporate Ravens into their builds. Ravens shut down such a large percentage of the Zerg arsenal.
PDD: Possibly the best spell in the game. Rivals Fungal Growth for its game-changing effect. Auto-Turret: Better in pretty much every way than Infested Terran HSM: Herp Derp use it on Drones
Burrowed banelings are slowly becoming more and more popular in the matchup and that's why you really need the raven. If the zerg is muta bling then you're composition as terran is going to include a sizable amount of marines and just 2 burrowed banelings can kill like 8 marines. I foresee it possibly getting to a point where at a higher level the terran doesn't even push out unless they have a raven. A mass roach unburrow on top of all your mech units is also devastating as well and the terran really shouldn't rely on scans as mules are crucial in keeping up with the macro zerg econ.
There's no reason to go mass raven but one or two is almost a must in my mind.
As far as hsm goes, I need to see more of it's use before I'm sold. As of right now I think it's too easy to dodge it but I can really only think of 2 high level games (qxc vs idrA at MLG, and Bratok vs Demuslim awhile ago) where a lot of them were used. It may be the best counter to the muta clump but I'm not sold that a really good zerg player would let themselves get hit by it.
Terran didn't use them as much as they should because they didn't need to use them to win most of the time. Imagine if Zerg in BW was strong enough to be " defiler and dark swarm ? pff, i don't need that to win "
However, when Terran will find some build that let them make more ghost or ravens, it will be so annoying to deal with. And so good to watch in a match. Raven are a really good " Show " unit.
boxer just used ravens vs his opponent (happiness) in his opening match of the GSL 2 effectively using PDD to win the viking battles to control the air and give his tanks better vision without having to worry about his opponents vikings.
In turn the viking vs viking battles turned into a raven PDD placement battle
I'm pretty sure that Ravens get more use in the future, I already feel like they are already more often on the field in TvZ. They offer pretty many options for terrans which no one has really explored yet. Also I believe we saw less Ravens in the past, because terrans got so many easier ways to win...
Ravens are good when you have a lot of them and all the uppgrades. My zerg "practice partners" always say that they should be nerfed in the futur.
They don't realise how hard and long it is to mass and uppgrade them without dying before you get a good amount of them. And even at this point, fungal growth / hydralisks shut down their harass while ultra (and zergs will have fully uppgraded ultra once you got your 'mass' of raven) kill turrets easily.
HSM is USELESS !
At best you can make the muta ball fly away with it. If the zerg is good, the only muta to run away will be the targeted one. It's useless in every other situation. 2 tanks shoot with 6 range that you can dodge for 125 energy on super expensive units ? no thx
I actually love the Raven's abilities but in order to use them more or less frequently and effectively you need quite a few of them which will cost you insane amounts of gas which you can't afford unless going marines or hellions as your core army, both of which suck against pretty much anything late game.
Ravens are really good to use in TvT to take down Medivacs.
Source: Jason Lee
Why do so many Terran's not understand this? It is literally impossible to approach a Thor being guarded by a Raven with enough energy for HSM. I dread the day Terrans on ladder start doing anything other than Thor/Marine and incorporate Ravens into their builds. Ravens shut down such a large percentage of the Zerg arsenal.
PDD: Possibly the best spell in the game. Rivals Fungal Growth for its game-changing effect. Auto-Turret: Better in pretty much every way than Infested Terran HSM: Herp Derp use it on Drones
Oh gee yeah you're right, a 100/200 cost unit with 150/150 upgrade that takes an insane amount of time is awesome because I can make mutas run away. They will never ever fly back 5 seconds later when the HSM is gone because I will totally have another 125 energy just lying around on my 200 gas unit to make them fly away again fk yeah!
PDD does so much against ling baneling ultra right? Oh wait I forgot, every zerg goes roach/hydra/muta cause that's what you should use against Terran PDD is good but it doesn't even approach fungal growth. Especially not in the TvZ matchup.
Auto-Turret: Good spell, no argument here
HSM: Good thing zergs aren't the most mobile units in the game right? herrp derp auto-turrets >>> HSM if you just wanna kill drones and they don't take up the whole energy bar of your expensive ass unit.
I made posts ages ago about seeker missile in tvt...it's very good in viking vs viking fights, because the vikings clump, so it let's you win the battle, along with PDD of course.
Also, if you seeker missile clumps of vikings in air fights, if your opponent has BCS, and you have just mass vikings/ravens, he has to run, while you just kill the BCS, and re-accumulate more vikings.
it's real tricky, but ravens have always been good TvT. And the PDD helps mech vs marauders as well.
TvZ...it can be really good...but accumulating ravens and the 125 energy with an army is incredibly hard without being rolled. It's too bad they got scared and nerfed HSM damage radius in beta...one of the dumbest nerfs ever. It was another one of those nerfs gearing SC2 to be a game of "I have more units than my opponent," rather than, "i can out micro my opponent."
On October 21 2010 17:01 MichaelJLowell wrote: Still think they're the next "omg imba" unit.
Right now they're kinda like void rays. If you get enough to can wreak havoc. But if you have less than 6 their usefulness is iffy.
That's not to say that if you are lucky enough to have two ravens with energy for HSM you won't be able to do terrible terrible damage. It's just that there are so many better ways to use time and ressources right now
Gonna start toying with the idea of using Autoturrets as protective walls. They have about sixty percent of the health per grid block of a Bunker, stick around for four minutes with the upgrade, and work immediately. Definitely something a macro player would love to have.
On October 21 2010 17:01 MichaelJLowell wrote: Ravens are great. Seeker Missiles are costly, but they're a great deterrent to the Mutalisk Ball of Death™. If the enemy is playing Muta/Ling/Baneling in the mid-to-late game, use the Seeker Missiles to scare off the Mutalisks and start harassing ground forces. I presume the reason Ravens aren't getting more play is that their application is much more complicated than anyone's wrapped their head around. Still think they're the next "omg imba" unit.
That doesn't really work. As a Zerg player, the first pack of Muta's is going to hit your base long before you get a Raven with HSM up. Without Thors, you simply can't defend the harassment effectively. I suppose you could switch to some Ravens afterward though, but it would be a tough balancing act.
Not if you play Double Rax and save your Gas, which is effectively what most Zergs are doing to get to Mutalisks, anyway. At worst, you just parlay the Ravens into a form of detection to deal with Roaches and Creep Tumors.
Either way, I've found it pretty futile to play against Zerg without securing the first expansion quite early. "Zerg needs to be up an expansion to win" is the issue more than anything.
On October 21 2010 17:01 MichaelJLowell wrote: Still think they're the next "omg imba" unit.
Right now they're kinda like void rays. If you get enough to can wreak havoc. But if you have less than 6 their usefulness is iffy.
That's not to say that if you are lucky enough to have two ravens with energy for HSM you won't be able to do terrible terrible damage. It's just that there are so many better ways to use time and ressources right now
Gonna start toying with the idea of using Autoturrets as protective walls. They have about sixty percent of the health per grid block of a Bunker, stick around for four minutes with the upgrade, and work immediately. Definitely something a macro player would love to have. .
I wanted to use them because of banelings, but then I realized that auto turrets are structures and die to two banelings...which doesn't help vs masses of banelings
On October 21 2010 17:01 MichaelJLowell wrote: Still think they're the next "omg imba" unit.
Right now they're kinda like void rays. If you get enough to can wreak havoc. But if you have less than 6 their usefulness is iffy.
That's not to say that if you are lucky enough to have two ravens with energy for HSM you won't be able to do terrible terrible damage. It's just that there are so many better ways to use time and ressources right now
Gonna start toying with the idea of using Autoturrets as protective walls. They have about sixty percent of the health per grid block of a Bunker, stick around for four minutes with the upgrade, and work immediately. Definitely something a macro player would love to have. .
I wanted to use them because of banelings, but then I realized that auto turrets are structures and die to two banelings...which doesn't help vs masses of banelings
I'd still take that over having them blow up in the middle of my army. Assuming you've saved your energy, you're probably getting three Autoturrets out of a Raven. If that takes out three Banelings a pop, I'll take it.
PDD is a sick spell for sure... But they need to do something to buff this unit more. It's costly and it's a very important caster for Terran. Seeker Missiles are laughable and I never use them because everyone just outruns them... and the cost for such a worthless spell is too much. How about stop taking things away from Terran and give us a little something?
seeker missile becomes useless at high level, you'll maybe get away with it once vs mutalisks (if they're close and not expecting it) then they'll just toy with you and bait you and overwhelm you with t heir ground army considering you invested so much. HSM is a nice idea, just too easily avoided and too powerful when it hits, So it's hard to balance out
As a high level zerg user, I believe that Ravens are vastly underused. This is mostly just because of the fact that terrans have had these imbalances and gimmicks to abuse and don't really have to think about waiting to gain advantages etc.
When you think about it, the only way to counter ravens is with infestors. Before you could NP them all you had was fungal and infested terrrans to deal with them.
If a terran gets to a critical mass of ravens, they can drop a half a dozen turrets or more, if anti air or hydras come along to kill the ravens, they simple throw down PDD and more turrets or HSM. When turrets are destroying your shit, you are forced to fight, it's not very easy to run away from HSM. If it's just anti ground turret force then this is still map control and HSM is still going to be effective because you HAVE to fight.
Out of the 3-4 games I've played where the opponents have amassed ravens, I have lost 2 of them. The first time, was when I had basically the entire map vs a 2 base drop harass terran. He eventually built up 20 or so ravens and proceeded to slowly take bases away from me (and for himself) and dismantle my macro mass because I didn't use infestors at all.
Might be an idea to remove energy cost from the HSM, and give it a cooldown like the Thor has now for its ability, so you can actual use it right away. For Balancing it can start with the cooldown like Corruption, shouldnt be a big problem as you would need to wait for the Energy anyway.
This way you can use the Turrets (which you really need in multiples to have any effect) and still blas something with the Missile.
Overall the Missile is a nice little thing, but its just so super expensive to get it, and at that time a "good" opponent is able to simply avoid it, thats not a good deal at all.
The HSM is so rarely used, its allmost like the Halluzination of the Sentry, this abilities need a form of upgrade or they are simply ignored.
I think it makes a lot of sence if this abilities simply use a cooldown instead of energy as you cant really use them if you need the energy for the more important other skillz like ForceField, they also suck extrem against Feedback / EMP and all that.
*Hopefully Blizzard has an Eye on underused units and skillz to give them an actual use.
On October 22 2010 08:25 TheOnlyOne wrote: Might be an idea to remove energy cost from the HSM, and give it a cooldown like the Thor has now for its ability, so you can actual use it right away. For Balancing it can start with the cooldown like Corruption, shouldnt be a big problem as you would need to wait for the Energy anyway.
This way you can use the Turrets (which you really need in multiples to have any effect) and still blas something with the Missile.
Overall the Missile is a nice little thing, but its just so super expensive to get it, and at that time a "good" opponent is able to simply avoid it, thats not a good deal at all.
The HSM is so rarely used, its allmost like the Halluzination of the Sentry, this abilities need a form of upgrade or they are simply ignored.
I think it makes a lot of sence if this abilities simply use a cooldown instead of energy as you cant really use them if you need the energy for the more important other skillz like ForceField, they also suck extrem against Feedback / EMP and all that.
*Hopefully Blizzard has an Eye on underused units and skillz to give them an actual use.
Ravens dropping PDDs and throwing around HSMs on CD seems far too powerful if you ask me.
Especially the Protoss could be in for a hard time then, you can just burn the energy of the Raven by dropping turrets - making it pretty much immune to feedback - and then just throw your HSM at the enemy's Templars who cannot outrun it because they are so effin slow.
On October 21 2010 18:35 doubled wrote: Increasing their speed to the same as a medivac (from 2.25 to 2.5) would be a nice change, makes them slightly more mobile and easier to keep with your army.
On a related note, does a HSM hitting air units do splash damage to ground units as well? Or only air targets, and vice versa.
why does every terran player want all of their units to have the same speed so you can just clump them 24/7?
seriously. micro your army better plz like the other races
ps - ravens are awesome, people just havent learned how to use them
because terran has the slowest and least mobile force out of the three races. flanking and getting advantagous positioning is already a major pain in the ass.
I'm a 1700+ diamond Terran player and when Zerg goes muta/ling/bling, I destroy them with mass raven/marine/hellions. Since Ravens are cheap on minerals and heavy on gas, Terran can errect up to 10 barracks and constantly produce marines as well. You can own 30 mutas with 2-3 HSM, and own any Zerg expansion with auto turrets. I only harass with 1 hellion at the start, making the zerg build spine crawlers, etc. I just beat a zerg player who had 6 expansions vs my 3. This is the rough build order:
The beauty of ravens is that Zerg sacrifices a lot of units to fight auto turrets while under the constant threat of HSM.. At the same time, Terran will rarely lose any ravens in the battle, making them extremely cost effective. Simply erect turrets, use HSM and fly away. Flying away is easy because of HSM as well.
OPENING: Start with 1/1/1 build Make 1 hellion and 1 raven -> Research HSM asap, constantly build marines. While harassing with 1 hellion, build 2nd CC. Build to hold off the impending Zerg attack (missile turrets, 3-4 bunks at choke)
MACRO: (defensive stance into DOMINATION) 1. Keep building barracks and starports that can support constant raven/marine production 2. If the zerg is going hard on roaches, make 3-4 tanks. 3. Zerg should be harassing with mutas by now, use auto turrets and HSM to own them! Now you have air control. Go auto turret the shit out of roaming overlords or build 1-2 vikings. 4. When securing 3rd, go and harass zerg with Ravens. DO NOT SACRIFICE THEM! 5. The 3rd PF is needed primarily for gas, reset your defense with bunks, etc. As soon as this is up, you can pump ravens constantly and eventually own any zerg base/expansion with auto turrets. 6. While you harass with ravens, you should have a large army of stim/shield marines and hellions constantly harassing other areas of the map. Make some drop ships as well, it is impossible for zerg to split their army because Ravens are extremely difficult to deal with.
Its important to note that the bulk of the harass is from auto turrets because they only cost 50 energy. Having 32 Ravens with 200 energy, you can spam lay out 128 turrets. These turrets last for a VERY VERY long time. You will regain enough energy to lay out 60+ turrets before the original turrets timeout. Each turret is like a marine, but with 3 times the hp, 3 armor, 7 range, 8 damage, and 0.8 attack cooldown. Now add some HSM the other 50+ marines you have in your base. GG.
Order of upgrades (forgot the exact names of upgrades): HSM, Building armour (for auto turrets), Increase starting raven energy, Duration, Range. I get HSM and building armour first because they help the most in the early defensive phase of the build.
I'm still experimenting, but I find that ravens give Terran so much map control. The only difficulty is a mass roach timing push, this is why defense is so important.
I really don't understand this thread. Topic title emphasises the raven in TvZ specifically yet the OP makes completely inaccurate claims that they're underused in all match ups which is plain wrong.
This thread should be renamed for discussion on the HSM because that is it's most underused ability and that seems to be all anyone is really discussing the viability of...but to say it's completely useless is an exaggeration. I'm pretty sure I saw qxc put hsm to good use in a tvz recently and I use ravens in tvz all the time just for roach/burrowed banelings. The pdd & turret is a bonus and sometimes I'll throw in HSM if i'm feeling frivolous.
all this raven vs baneling talk in nonsense. dont even know why ppl mention that. ive used ravens many times with great success. its an awesome unit. i dont even use HSM unless the zerg is going mass muta. which most only make 8 or so then transition. so its not worth it then. even while only using turrets and pdd they are super good. even if they make more then that and ur trying to harass with them, u can pdd on a ledge with some turrets and zerg cant do anything.
as stated earlier in this post all good zerg anti air is stopped by PDD. ledge turrets are super funny as well. especially if u upgrade duration and building armor. banshee raven is super mobile and fun. or even 111 mass marines a few tanks and ravens works good. as long as the zerg doesnt catch ur tanks off guard with banelings and roach's its fine. u dont even need medivacs. marines are already way cost effective without them.
ALSO i mostly disagree about all this HSM buff talk. if u could shoot 2 HSM's from each raven it would be way OP. i dont like how it does friendly fire though. (one time i lost a shit load of my own units... bad micro my fault lol) also all this talk about HSM can be dodged bullshit is getting old. position ur attack so he HAS to engage or loose an expo. its a win win.
BTW upgraded mass marine raven in FFA is soooo much fun, try it!! just make sure u use pdd when ur ravens get pinch'd or caught out of position while running away. PDD POWER!
edit: i forgot to mention u can instantly throw up as many turrets on an expo if plan ahead. scan expo right click to where u can reach most of the cast range. click turret hold shift and spam away. when they get there they instantly make them. heck u can even right click back at ur base so they hit and run. so fun!! and if they have static defense u can us use pdd a couple times first so your ravens dont even get touched but thats a little tricky. practice makes perfect!
On October 22 2010 08:36 shynee wrote: I'm a 1700+ diamond Terran player and when Zerg goes muta/ling/bling, I destroy them with mass raven/marine/hellions. Since Ravens are cheap on minerals and heavy on gas, Terran can errect up to 10 barracks and constantly produce marines as well. You can own 30 mutas with 2-3 HSM, and own any Zerg expansion with auto turrets. I only harass with 1 hellion at the start, making the zerg build spine crawlers, etc. I just beat a zerg player who had 6 expansions vs my 3. This is the rough build order:
The beauty of ravens is that Zerg sacrifices a lot of units to fight auto turrets while under the constant threat of HSM.. At the same time, Terran will rarely lose any ravens in the battle, making them extremely cost effective. Simply erect turrets, use HSM and fly away. Flying away is easy because of HSM as well.
OPENING: Start with 1/1/1 build Make 1 hellion and 1 raven -> Research HSM asap, constantly build marines. While harassing with 1 hellion, build 2nd CC. Build to hold off the impending Zerg attack (missile turrets, 3-4 bunks at choke)
MACRO: (defensive stance into DOMINATION) 1. Keep building barracks and starports that can support constant raven/marine production 2. If the zerg is going hard on roaches, make 3-4 tanks. 3. Zerg should be harassing with mutas by now, use auto turrets and HSM to own them! Now you have air control. Go auto turret the shit out of roaming overlords or build 1-2 vikings. 4. When securing 3rd, go and harass zerg with Ravens. DO NOT SACRIFICE THEM! 5. The 3rd PF is needed primarily for gas, reset your defense with bunks, etc. As soon as this is up, you can pump ravens constantly and eventually own any zerg base/expansion with auto turrets. 6. While you harass with ravens, you should have a large army of stim/shield marines and hellions constantly harassing other areas of the map. Make some drop ships as well, it is impossible for zerg to split their army because Ravens are extremely difficult to deal with.
Its important to note that the bulk of the harass is from auto turrets because they only cost 50 energy. Having 32 Ravens with 200 energy, you can spam lay out 128 turrets. These turrets last for a VERY VERY long time. You will regain enough energy to lay out 60+ turrets before the original turrets timeout. Each turret is like a marine, but with 3 times the hp, 3 armor, 7 range, 8 damage, and 0.8 attack cooldown. Now add some HSM the other 50+ marines you have in your base. GG.
Order of upgrades (forgot the exact names of upgrades): HSM, Building armour (for auto turrets), Increase starting raven energy, Duration, Range. I get HSM and building armour first because they help the most in the early defensive phase of the build.
I'm still experimenting, but I find that ravens give Terran so much map control. The only difficulty is a mass roach timing push, this is why defense is so important.
As a 1800 Zerg player, i can say that seeing a large number of Ravens definitely brings a feeling of dread over me. I have a feeling that Ravens are going to play a huge role in the standard ZvT. Instead of scourge sniping down sci vessels, it's going to be about awesome mutalisk splitting (to avoid HSM) and using Infestors to fungal ravens and shoot them down before they can get away.
hsm seems very good against Z when used with thors. pretty expensive to do that of course. *could you actually use vikings to counter mutas if you had hsm? mutas can't rly get close?
Anytime you consider making a raven, you should go BATTLECRUISER!! Hell, in some aspects it might be more cost effective- only having to purchase the yamoto+acouple compared to the tons and tons of upgrades for ravens.
still far too slow...mutas will dodge it. and anything else will just tank it, while minimising splash damage. on the other hand 2 successive storms will wipe out a huge amount of zerg.
I agree with the HSM not being cost effective atm. A single siege tank shot has roughly around the same amount of splash on banelings as a HSM does. It is ideally best vs mutas but yea.... really slow to get energy up to 125 and wastes starport build time.;/
Low diamond (1200) zerg here. I recently got pwned by a 2-base mass raven + marine. It was a really fun match and i hope to see more of these builds soon. I attribute part of the loss to shock factor from seein this build, but I definitely agree that it feels well thought out and could be a very solid anti-zerg build.
I normally go FE -> ling -> fast infestor -> bling -> ultra. No mutas for me until I am approaching the 150 supply mark. I like early infestors because with good micro/creep and sling/bling, you can decimate a terran push that is 3 times your army value before they reach your base.
The raven-massing terran opened with early dual gas and dual starports. As my infestors popped, 2 banshees and 2 ravens came, which I fended off easily with FG and queens.
I normally keep a low bling count since I feel that they should be morphed only if necessary. Then the turning point came. 6 ravens and a ton of marines starting marching in just as my ultras were being made. The marines wouldn't normally be a problem with infestor/bling, but they held back while the ravens flew over a chasm, dropped ~15 auto turrets inside my base and flew off. The ball of 150hp turrets proved too much for my lings to take on and I was trying to reserve the banes for the potential marine push.A decent amount of dmg was done to my tech buildings and eco before the ultras popped to mop up the turrets. I was trying to FG and IT-snipe the ravens but getting close was a real problem as more turrets were being dropped and the marine threat loomed closer. My 2-base gas income had to be split between more infestors (to get more FGs off the ravens) and ultras + armor upgrade to take out the turrets. The creep I had earlier spread halfway cross the map has been killed off and I scout forward. Ultras eventually fell because their armor was not high enough to deflect most of the autoturret damage. Eventually I was contained to 2 base as ravens massed. Starved out and GG.
On reflection, I felt that I should have switched from ultras to hydras (1 ultra = 4 hydras of gas) and used some blings on the clumped turrets to break a safe path for my infestors and hydras to get at the ravens. This way, it might have been possible to snipe down the ravens faster after a good FG. Perhaps a way against mass raven/marine is to go for a little more infestors (FG the ravens/marines), spend some gas on hydras to snipe FGed ravens (say 10 hydras?) and the rest into ling/bling in a 3:1 ratio. Conserve a little gas to tech to ultra since ravens are helpless against them. Once you break the mid-game push, you got a decent window to expand because ravens take a long time to build and u need only fear a critical mass of ravens. If the Terran tries the same push after that, go aggressive with Ultras at the front. With high armor, ultras barely take damage from marines and autoturrets.
i've found that 1 or 2 ravens can shut down zerg expansions in the late game. 1 or 2 ravens drop down some auto turrets around a hatchery w/o spine crawlers and that expo is down.
I think it's the build time more than anything. I don't even know their exact build times, but I would definitely be more open to making them if they didn't take up my starport production for a seeming eternity.
At the very least you should make one raven when you can in order to blast creep while saving CC energy for mules. Blasting creep constantly is really important for maintaining pressure while keeping your marines from dying to banelings, don't you think? Also nullifies burrowed banelings. The auto turrets provide a perfectly fine means for your raven to contribute to a battle that doesn't involve a lot of ranged zerg units, and you can sorta zone with them a little.
On November 04 2010 05:32 out4blood wrote: 1 Raven is easily cost effective just for the anti-creep capability. If you save just one scan, you have already paid for your Raven.
Ehm. Given that you need tech lab as well for raven. 1 raven = 4-6 scans.
No one made it, everyone just massed muta+bling and hydra roach.
Now its a staple unit.
First off, aside from being a spellcaster, ITS A DETECTOR AS WELL. PDD Is AMAZING in TvP and TvT. Auto Turret is a nice compliment, can harass, Stop mining at expansions(or own mineral lines lol)or make last ditch defense from attacks. HSM is the only thing that I feel needs to be reduced from 125 to 75, the spell is fine, it just hasnt been experimented enough in ZvT and PvT. HSM one hits Banelings, Sentries, High templar, Infestors, Ghosts ect. People think HSM should be the terran psionic storm, its not, its ment to snipe or harass high priority units. I do agree that the cost of HSM energy wise is a little ridiculous, And I do agree that at its current energy cvost its not worth it, but reducing to 75 would make it a great spell.
On October 21 2010 17:01 Nazza wrote: Seeker Missile - "Let's make an ability that people can RUN AWAY FROM!"
Once the SM gets close enough it accelerates and is impossible to escape from. Everything that can hit the Raven for Zerg is eaten up by PDD. You can drop a PDD to get close and then BOOM. There are also situations where you would want your opponent to run away such as breaking a contain, so thats another way to use them. Going Marine + Medivac + Raven would be the best combo imo for strength per cost. It would make a very strong drop forces. If you had 3 groups of 3 medivacs all full of marines with 1 or 2 ravens escorting then you could execute a very powerful triple drop that would be very difficult for any Zerg to handle. This is my vision for future TvZ. The biggest reason for lack of Ravens and their SM vZ in my eyes is the infestors neural parasite. Sniping infestors will be a very high priority for Terrans in the future. This kind of plays biggest weakness would be a counterattack, luckily Planetary Fortresses exist
I keep hearing people say HSM is slow, doesn't hit targets, is easy to dodge, I think they are just not casting it properly. If you cast HSM from a distance obviously people will see it easily and run away. The clumping of units in SC2 should make HSM very easy to use and very effective, and if cast properly it is. Basically you must fly the raven to with 1 to 2 range (the max cast range being 6) of the unit you wish to target, and then use the shift-queue commands to safely get the Raven away, the key sequence of while holding shift, move command near the unit, press R to select HSM, left-click target, right-click safe location will cause the Raven to run up near the unit, fire the HSM, and run away. The Raven will likely take some splash damage from the HSM but it will not kill it. Specifically people say the Raven is underused in TvZ well I'd say that it is purely because Terran wants to play exactly like they did in BW, and don't give the HSM a chance. I'd say its far more cost-effective to suicide (only if need be) a 100/200 Raven to AOE nuke 15 Mutalisks than it is to pump out a 300/200 Thor and 1000s of minerals of Marines to handle them as well. By simply getting that one Raven to take down all of the Mutalisks to very low HP quickly, not only can the Terran shut down the Mutalisk harass faster overall, but in the long run will spend less on other Mutalisks defenes.
TL:DR - If you cast the HSM from close enough range it may hurt or even kill the Raven, but you can guarantee it will hit its target. Placing an HSM correctly in an SC2 unit ball even if it kills the Raven will do cost effective damage. Considering the reduced damage on Tank attacks, it could be even more effective than it once was.
I think people underestimate the effect SM. It's actually really really fucking good in a bubble. Meaning if you have an SM heading towards something it's fucking awesome.
1. It's good damage with a pretty reasonable splash radius. That damage does not get reduced by anything like armor which is a nice benefit. 2. It denies a HUGE amount of space. A SM, when it's non-obvious what the intended target is, denies space in a radius that's pretty significant. It's not like storm that only denies a small area of it's actual damage. A pack of units targeted by SM have to run away or perpendicular to seeker missile, almost 180 degrees of movement is immediately denied for the pack of units.
Now there are problems with SM and I would put them like this...
1. Energy too much. DO NOT FIX THIS. SM is incredibly powerful and 2 SMs or 1 SM + PDD from 1 raven would be way too much. 2. Upgrades too expensive. This is the #1 problem imo. You pretty much need the boosted starting energy to cast SM so that's 300/300 to really get much out of SM. I'd like to see one, or both of the upgrades dropped to 100/100 and maybe reduce research time. SM is not as powerful as warp + storm, it should be more reachable. This is especially true with the 3rd SM related upgrade to increase its flight time that's also 150/150. 3. Range too short. While I don't think 9 range would be balanced, 6 range is ridiculous. There's almost no way for a raven to safely cast SM. Range 7 or 8 would help this spell tremendously. 4. Splash drop off a little too harsh. With the 2.4->2.0 range decrease the 1x damage radius should be boosted to something like .8 so it's 0-.8 = 1x, .8-1.6=.5, 1.6-2=.25 rather than what we have now.
As for ZvT ravens can be really strong. They deny creep and auto-turrets are really useful in battle for their ability to restrict space and tank damage. This is especially true when facing something like banelings where the Zerg player needs to be able to navigate around the turrets without taking heavy losses.
On November 04 2010 06:17 Logo wrote: I think people underestimate the effect SM. It's actually really really fucking good in a bubble. Meaning if you have an SM heading towards something it's fucking awesome.
1. It's good damage with a pretty reasonable splash radius. That damage does not get reduced by anything like armor which is a nice benefit. 2. It denies a HUGE amount of space. A SM, when it's non-obvious what the intended target is, denies space in a radius that's pretty significant. It's not like storm that only denies a small area of it's actual damage. A pack of units targeted by SM have to run away or perpendicular to seeker missile, almost 180 degrees of movement is immediately denied for the pack of units.
Now there are problems with SM and I would put them like this...
1. Energy too much. DO NOT FIX THIS. SM is incredibly powerful and 2 SMs or 1 SM + PDD from 1 raven would be way too much. 2. Upgrades too expensive. This is the #1 problem imo. You pretty much need the boosted starting energy to cast SM so that's 300/300 to really get much out of SM. I'd like to see one, or both of the upgrades dropped to 100/100 and maybe reduce research time. SM is not as powerful as warp + storm, it should be more reachable. This is especially true with the 3rd SM related upgrade to increase its flight time that's also 150/150. 3. Range too short. While I don't think 9 range would be balanced, 6 range is ridiculous. There's almost no way for a raven to safely cast SM. Range 7 or 8 would help this spell tremendously. 4. Splash drop off a little too harsh. With the 2.4->2.0 range decrease the 1x damage radius should be boosted to something like .8 so it's 0-.8 = 1x, .8-1.6=.5, 1.6-2=.25 rather than what we have now.
As for ZvT ravens can be really strong. They deny creep and auto-turrets are really useful in battle for their ability to restrict space and tank damage. This is especially true when facing something like banelings where the Zerg player needs to be able to navigate around the turrets without taking heavy losses.
Auto-turret harass on out-lying Zerg bases not only slows their expanding, but can actually help to keep them from going out and harassing you. The turrets with upgrade have a 240 second timer, that means the opponent Zerg or otherwise HAS to come and deal with them, or let them kill everything where they were dropped. The game is young still and tons of harass, micro, and unit control trick have yet to be found. I really wish people would not dismiss spells/units as useless just because we haven't YET found a use.
PDD is an AMAZING ability in TvP and TvT, if you have the gas to get some ravens, PDD can make your vikings beat their vikings, or can negate stalkers entirely. I have not found a use for them in TvZ, as thors are much better against mutas, and I feel like banshees come out sooner and are better in general than ravens.
On November 04 2010 06:45 yoplate wrote: PDD is an AMAZING ability in TvP and TvT, if you have the gas to get some ravens, PDD can make your vikings beat their vikings, or can negate stalkers entirely. I have not found a use for them in TvZ, as thors are much better against mutas, and I feel like banshees come out sooner and are better in general than ravens.
They definitely are a niche unit but for those of us that remember, Sci Vessels and their current use in BW took a very long time to fully develop. I'm sure we should expect nothing less from the Raven.
On November 04 2010 05:32 out4blood wrote: 1 Raven is easily cost effective just for the anti-creep capability. If you save just one scan, you have already paid for your Raven.
Ehm. Given that you need tech lab as well for raven. 1 raven = 4-6 scans.
LOLWUT?!
Tech lab is 50/25. How do you figure that is worth 1200-1800 minerals?!
It's a shame really, I love the HSM, it makes for entertaining games with the opponent trying to dodge it and the Terran trying to make it hit, and it's kinda like seeing a scarab chase workers in BW, youre holding your breath and wondering if it will be a hit or a miss because you know, if it hits, it will lead to terrible, terrible damage.
Blizzard, you've nerfed terran lots, so now please do something to encourage the use of HSM, do it for e-sports, even tho it might lead to lots of nerds dying because they held their breath too long! (stupid extended time upgrades )
You can target your own units with seeker missiles, can't you? If you're concerned about the enemy outrunning it, you could target a stimmed marine or something and run into their forces with it like a kamikaze bomber.
Raven has two strong tricks. 1st off, its a flying detector, albeit more expensive than the other two. 2nd off, it can use PDD to deflect up to 40 projectile attacks under optimal circumstances. Sentry Turret and Seeker Missile are both overcosted and easy to work around most of the time.
However, I've been wondering whether or not, when rushing Protoss with 2 Starport early cloaking Banshees, whether or not I should build a Raven in lieu of cloaking. Cloaking, they can detect. PDD, I can deflect the next 20 Stalker shots in a large AOE, and Stalkers barely beat their weight in Banshees as it is.
Shouldn't be that hard to time. Get 1 Raven+1 Banshee first, then 2 Banshees, then attack. It takes about 86 seconds for the Raven to finish charging, which means that it will have 26 seconds left to go when its time to march off to visit the enemy base.
Ravens are rarely used because Terran can build very high DPS armies for very little gas and MULES give them lots of minerals. A slight design flaw imo, low tech, low gas units are too effective and Terran mining ratio is too skewed towards minerals. I think the Terran high tech units are pretty awesome, too bad we don't see more of them.
I fear the day when raven becomes popular... Mobile detection for terran is very good TvZ. So the OP was a lot about abilities, but really it's the mobile detection I think has the biggest impact on TvZ. As you said PDD requires multiple casts to really be effective, hydras can snipe one. Due to all the reasons you listed above, The spells aren't really a concern in my ZvT play, but the creep tumor killing abilities are.
I dont really see 100/200 as being really expensive.. Im playing against these 2000+ terrans and they rarely use a single raven, eventhough they all have atleast one starport every game, and they are plenty of techlabs lying around your base, just hop on one and make one raven..its not hard or expensive.
You dont need to upgrade anything for it to be extremly usefull, PDD is awsome against muttas, but its good just for the ability to detect baneling bombs and destroy creep.. Im calling it right now, every terran in the future will have atleast one raven in tvz. the OP is just being negative... look at it from a zergs perspective and you see how frightening a raven can be, creep is ESSENTIAL to win in zvt..I rarely post here anymore but this had to be said..
On November 04 2010 08:44 MangoTango wrote: If people used burrowed Banelings or burrowed Roaches more, the Raven would be used more, I guarantee it.
As it is right now with the "metagame" (every time you mention that word you´re gonna piss someone off!) roaches really dont have any place in ZvT unless it´s like really late game. Takes too much gas from the muta-production
TvZ agreed not so much without the gimmicky strat, although I feel like Seeker Missile still has some potential, if not simply forcing the enemy to retreat in engagements giving T some free shots at the Z.
raven would be an additional unit you have to micro. And most just concentrate und keeping their marines alive, since they are the only thing the terran has that is effectiv against well microed mutas, while at the same time also granting good damage against ground. Tryed seekers one time against mutas. But since they weren't stacked but spread the damage was pretty low + you need your marines or so close so the raven don't dies, so he will fly away anyway. Most zerg don't use several groups for mutas when the masses reach a critical point at which the mutas start to stack, But if they start doing it seekers are not working again. And for those massed mutas you can use a thor trap. Building a weak spot at the edge of the base with some towers he will focus+ a few supply depots so mutas stack. Then move the thors a bit in range and 5 waves of rockets just eleminate all mutas.
As for the raven directly. A lot of upgrades working here. Duration, building armor and range, energie, heat seeker. It is really a long game caster. And most terrans don't tech up even late game. Imo seeker missiles need alot of timing training and so on and atm terrans seems to be happy with what they have atm ^^.
On November 04 2010 08:57 wodan46 wrote: Raven has two strong tricks. 1st off, its a flying detector, albeit more expensive than the other two. 2nd off, it can use PDD to deflect up to 40 projectile attacks under optimal circumstances. Sentry Turret and Seeker Missile are both overcosted and easy to work around most of the time.
However, I've been wondering whether or not, when rushing Protoss with 2 Starport early cloaking Banshees, whether or not I should build a Raven in lieu of cloaking. Cloaking, they can detect. PDD, I can deflect the next 20 Stalker shots in a large AOE, and Stalkers barely beat their weight in Banshees as it is.
Shouldn't be that hard to time. Get 1 Raven+1 Banshee first, then 2 Banshees, then attack. It takes about 86 seconds for the Raven to finish charging, which means that it will have 26 seconds left to go when its time to march off to visit the enemy base.
I like this idea! Does sound better than cloakig.
Although, IIRC sentries can shoot down the PDD... and they'll probably have a few lurking around somewhere? Guess they bump themselves up the raven target priority list.
I think the Raven is a unit that is perfectly fine as it is, and I know for a fact that we're going to see more and more Ravens in standard build orders as time progresses. Players are still abit unsure about them, because of how complex they are. Notice how long it took for Zerg players to value the Infestor again. And now it's an integral part of the ZvT matchup. Just give ut some time, and until then, watch BratOk games, 'cause he loves Ravens.
Ravens are great but getting them out sucks. You have to have a tech-labbed Starport, and nothing else useful really comes out of those, and you have to keep an available reactor around in case you need to replenish medivacs/vikings.
But it would be unfair to make our mobile detector any easier to get because we already have scans, plus the Raven is such a crazy good spellcaster even without the detection.
On October 21 2010 16:54 krell wrote: Ravens are rarely used in any matchup, they popup every now and then in TvP for observer or DT detection as well as PDD placement vs stalkers. But in TvT and TvZ their use is almost inexistent, except for the recent gimmick strat of massing a critical mass of them.
These are a few points that I believe explain its underuse in TvZ, where a lot of its abilities could come in very handy. The raven is an extremely costly unit : 100m/200 gas, plus the starport w/tech lab addon which you would ideally trade for a reactor. Raven's are extremely effective against massed up groups of mutalisks and occasionally roaches. HSM can absolutely devastate a closely packed flock of mutas.
Here's the problem. If your enemy has mutas, you had better either have mass MMM or a few thors to counter. If you go the MMM route, you will need the starport and gas to pump out dropships and marauders. Additionally, MMM is an extremely mobile force with which the raven has a hard time keeping up. Additionally, the HSM is rather dangerous to use with such a mix of units as you will most likely blow up a fair portion of your own army. (Due to the small radii of marines and marauders).
The other army mixture you would use them in is mech. But no midgame T can really afford to have both ravens and thors.
Even despite all these disadvantages, Raven would be seen more if their abilities weren't so prohibitively expensive and drawn out. Your raven will pop out with just enough energy for a mobile turret (only decent in larger numbers). You need to get the 150/150 upgrade to start with 75, which still leaves you far short of PDD or HSM (which you also have to pay 150/150 for).
In matchups like TvZ, you can't afford to wait 3 minutes to get a raven up. It's all about macroing your forces back up and counter-attacking or defending.
The raven is a nice thought, but its combat readiness needs to be accelerated or the efficacy of its spells in small numbers increased significantly significantly.
To recap: the raven is not used because :
- sacrifice of dropship production - ultra long charge up time for HSM and PDD - high cost of upgrades (which make it barely useable) - heavy gas investment (even though this is expected for such a techy unit).
Post your thoughts
I use a bio build for TvZ. Actually, I'm a fan of using the starport for a tech lab to get out 1 fast raven for detection, and then switching with the factory for a reactor to pump out vikings/medivacs and then using the tech lab on the factory to get blue flame for hellions to deal with zerglings easier. Zerglings/banelings are the major threat to a bio force (unless you skip ghosts in which case infestors are your biggest problem) and blue flame hellions make them much easier to deal with + cost no gas (other than for the one-time upgrade).
There's no reason not to get the raven or the hellion upgrade because I always see pro/high-level terran players build up a gas reserve of 1k+ by the end of the game. Terran can easily get all the tech it needs + upgrades with bio-oriented builds, so SPEND THAT GAS.
Change Seeker Missle to nearly instantly latch onto a target, then have a 3-4 second detonation period before it goes off. Like irridiate in the sense it's a click on unit target spell, and does splash dmg. This way it's a spell that forces Zerg to instantly stop what it's doing and split it's units. Unit cannot burrow once missile is latched. Still does 125 dmg so Roaches, Ultras would survive.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/b/bf/Marauderafter.jpg/325px-Marauderafter.jpg)
)
