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On October 22 2010 07:33 MichaelJLowell wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2010 17:06 krell wrote:On October 21 2010 17:01 MichaelJLowell wrote:
Still think they're the next "omg imba" unit. Right now they're kinda like void rays. If you get enough to can wreak havoc. But if you have less than 6 their usefulness is iffy. That's not to say that if you are lucky enough to have two ravens with energy for HSM you won't be able to do terrible terrible damage. It's just that there are so many better ways to use time and ressources right now Gonna start toying with the idea of using Autoturrets as protective walls. They have about sixty percent of the health per grid block of a Bunker, stick around for four minutes with the upgrade, and work immediately. Definitely something a macro player would love to have. .
I wanted to use them because of banelings, but then I realized that auto turrets are structures and die to two banelings...which doesn't help vs masses of banelings
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On October 22 2010 07:42 imBLIND wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2010 07:33 MichaelJLowell wrote:On October 21 2010 17:06 krell wrote:On October 21 2010 17:01 MichaelJLowell wrote:
Still think they're the next "omg imba" unit. Right now they're kinda like void rays. If you get enough to can wreak havoc. But if you have less than 6 their usefulness is iffy. That's not to say that if you are lucky enough to have two ravens with energy for HSM you won't be able to do terrible terrible damage. It's just that there are so many better ways to use time and ressources right now Gonna start toying with the idea of using Autoturrets as protective walls. They have about sixty percent of the health per grid block of a Bunker, stick around for four minutes with the upgrade, and work immediately. Definitely something a macro player would love to have. . I wanted to use them because of banelings, but then I realized that auto turrets are structures and die to two banelings...which doesn't help vs masses of banelings
I'd still take that over having them blow up in the middle of my army. Assuming you've saved your energy, you're probably getting three Autoturrets out of a Raven. If that takes out three Banelings a pop, I'll take it.
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PDD is a sick spell for sure... But they need to do something to buff this unit more. It's costly and it's a very important caster for Terran. Seeker Missiles are laughable and I never use them because everyone just outruns them... and the cost for such a worthless spell is too much. How about stop taking things away from Terran and give us a little something?
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seeker missile becomes useless at high level, you'll maybe get away with it once vs mutalisks (if they're close and not expecting it) then they'll just toy with you and bait you and overwhelm you with t heir ground army considering you invested so much. HSM is a nice idea, just too easily avoided and too powerful when it hits, So it's hard to balance out
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As a high level zerg user, I believe that Ravens are vastly underused. This is mostly just because of the fact that terrans have had these imbalances and gimmicks to abuse and don't really have to think about waiting to gain advantages etc.
When you think about it, the only way to counter ravens is with infestors. Before you could NP them all you had was fungal and infested terrrans to deal with them.
If a terran gets to a critical mass of ravens, they can drop a half a dozen turrets or more, if anti air or hydras come along to kill the ravens, they simple throw down PDD and more turrets or HSM. When turrets are destroying your shit, you are forced to fight, it's not very easy to run away from HSM.
If it's just anti ground turret force then this is still map control and HSM is still going to be effective because you HAVE to fight.
Out of the 3-4 games I've played where the opponents have amassed ravens, I have lost 2 of them. The first time, was when I had basically the entire map vs a 2 base drop harass terran. He eventually built up 20 or so ravens and proceeded to slowly take bases away from me (and for himself) and dismantle my macro mass because I didn't use infestors at all.
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Btw.. About HSM against banelings : what happend if the zerg player make the aimed baneling explose ?
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Ravens are used more and more as people stop it with the stupid 'too much of an investment' talk.
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If they can kill medivacs im sure you can go hunt ovies with em from now on?
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Might be an idea to remove energy cost from the HSM, and give it a cooldown like the Thor has now for its ability, so you can actual use it right away.
For Balancing it can start with the cooldown like Corruption, shouldnt be a big problem as you would need to wait for the Energy anyway.
This way you can use the Turrets (which you really need in multiples to have any effect) and still blas something with the Missile.
Overall the Missile is a nice little thing, but its just so super expensive to get it, and at that time a "good" opponent is able to simply avoid it, thats not a good deal at all.
The HSM is so rarely used, its allmost like the Halluzination of the Sentry, this abilities need a form of upgrade or they are simply ignored.
I think it makes a lot of sence if this abilities simply use a cooldown instead of energy as you cant really use them if you need the energy for the more important other skillz like ForceField, they also suck extrem against Feedback / EMP and all that.
*Hopefully Blizzard has an Eye on underused units and skillz to give them an actual use.
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On October 22 2010 08:25 TheOnlyOne wrote:
Might be an idea to remove energy cost from the HSM, and give it a cooldown like the Thor has now for its ability, so you can actual use it right away.
For Balancing it can start with the cooldown like Corruption, shouldnt be a big problem as you would need to wait for the Energy anyway.
This way you can use the Turrets (which you really need in multiples to have any effect) and still blas something with the Missile.
Overall the Missile is a nice little thing, but its just so super expensive to get it, and at that time a "good" opponent is able to simply avoid it, thats not a good deal at all.
The HSM is so rarely used, its allmost like the Halluzination of the Sentry, this abilities need a form of upgrade or they are simply ignored.
I think it makes a lot of sence if this abilities simply use a cooldown instead of energy as you cant really use them if you need the energy for the more important other skillz like ForceField, they also suck extrem against Feedback / EMP and all that.
*Hopefully Blizzard has an Eye on underused units and skillz to give them an actual use.
Ravens dropping PDDs and throwing around HSMs on CD seems far too powerful if you ask me.
Especially the Protoss could be in for a hard time then, you can just burn the energy of the Raven by dropping turrets - making it pretty much immune to feedback - and then just throw your HSM at the enemy's Templars who cannot outrun it because they are so effin slow.
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On October 21 2010 20:51 NikonTC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2010 20:31 tacrats wrote:On October 21 2010 18:35 doubled wrote:
Increasing their speed to the same as a medivac (from 2.25 to 2.5) would be a nice change, makes them slightly more mobile and easier to keep with your army.
On a related note, does a HSM hitting air units do splash damage to ground units as well? Or only air targets, and vice versa. why does every terran player want all of their units to have the same speed so you can just clump them 24/7? seriously. micro your army better plz like the other races ps - ravens are awesome, people just havent learned how to use them because terran has the slowest and least mobile force out of the three races. flanking and getting advantagous positioning is already a major pain in the ass.
noob misconception, this isnt bw.
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I'm a 1700+ diamond Terran player and when Zerg goes muta/ling/bling, I destroy them with mass raven/marine/hellions. Since Ravens are cheap on minerals and heavy on gas, Terran can errect up to 10 barracks and constantly produce marines as well. You can own 30 mutas with 2-3 HSM, and own any Zerg expansion with auto turrets. I only harass with 1 hellion at the start, making the zerg build spine crawlers, etc. I just beat a zerg player who had 6 expansions vs my 3. This is the rough build order:
The beauty of ravens is that Zerg sacrifices a lot of units to fight auto turrets while under the constant threat of HSM.. At the same time, Terran will rarely lose any ravens in the battle, making them extremely cost effective. Simply erect turrets, use HSM and fly away. Flying away is easy because of HSM as well.
OPENING:
Start with 1/1/1 build
Make 1 hellion and 1 raven -> Research HSM asap, constantly build marines.
While harassing with 1 hellion, build 2nd CC.
Build to hold off the impending Zerg attack (missile turrets, 3-4 bunks at choke)
MACRO: (defensive stance into DOMINATION)
1. Keep building barracks and starports that can support constant raven/marine production
2. If the zerg is going hard on roaches, make 3-4 tanks.
3. Zerg should be harassing with mutas by now, use auto turrets and HSM to own them! Now you have air control. Go auto turret the shit out of roaming overlords or build 1-2 vikings.
4. When securing 3rd, go and harass zerg with Ravens. DO NOT SACRIFICE THEM!
5. The 3rd PF is needed primarily for gas, reset your defense with bunks, etc. As soon as this is up, you can pump ravens constantly and eventually own any zerg base/expansion with auto turrets.
6. While you harass with ravens, you should have a large army of stim/shield marines and hellions constantly harassing other areas of the map. Make some drop ships as well, it is impossible for zerg to split their army because Ravens are extremely difficult to deal with.
Its important to note that the bulk of the harass is from auto turrets because they only cost 50 energy. Having 32 Ravens with 200 energy, you can spam lay out 128 turrets. These turrets last for a VERY VERY long time. You will regain enough energy to lay out 60+ turrets before the original turrets timeout. Each turret is like a marine, but with 3 times the hp, 3 armor, 7 range, 8 damage, and 0.8 attack cooldown. Now add some HSM the other 50+ marines you have in your base. GG.
Order of upgrades (forgot the exact names of upgrades):
HSM, Building armour (for auto turrets), Increase starting raven energy, Duration, Range. I get HSM and building armour first because they help the most in the early defensive phase of the build.
I'm still experimenting, but I find that ravens give Terran so much map control. The only difficulty is a mass roach timing push, this is why defense is so important.
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I really don't understand this thread. Topic title emphasises the raven in TvZ specifically yet the OP makes completely inaccurate claims that they're underused in all match ups which is plain wrong.
This thread should be renamed for discussion on the HSM because that is it's most underused ability and that seems to be all anyone is really discussing the viability of...but to say it's completely useless is an exaggeration. I'm pretty sure I saw qxc put hsm to good use in a tvz recently and I use ravens in tvz all the time just for roach/burrowed banelings. The pdd & turret is a bonus and sometimes I'll throw in HSM if i'm feeling frivolous.
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all this raven vs baneling talk in nonsense. dont even know why ppl mention that. ive used ravens many times with great success. its an awesome unit. i dont even use HSM unless the zerg is going mass muta. which most only make 8 or so then transition. so its not worth it then. even while only using turrets and pdd they are super good. even if they make more then that and ur trying to harass with them, u can pdd on a ledge with some turrets and zerg cant do anything.
as stated earlier in this post all good zerg anti air is stopped by PDD. ledge turrets are super funny as well. especially if u upgrade duration and building armor. banshee raven is super mobile and fun. or even 111 mass marines a few tanks and ravens works good. as long as the zerg doesnt catch ur tanks off guard with banelings and roach's its fine. u dont even need medivacs. marines are already way cost effective without them.
ALSO i mostly disagree about all this HSM buff talk. if u could shoot 2 HSM's from each raven it would be way OP. i dont like how it does friendly fire though. (one time i lost a shit load of my own units... bad micro my fault lol) also all this talk about HSM can be dodged bullshit is getting old. position ur attack so he HAS to engage or loose an expo. its a win win.
BTW upgraded mass marine raven in FFA is soooo much fun, try it!! just make sure u use pdd when ur ravens get pinch'd or caught out of position while running away. PDD POWER!
edit: i forgot to mention u can instantly throw up as many turrets on an expo if plan ahead. scan expo right click to where u can reach most of the cast range. click turret hold shift and spam away. when they get there they instantly make them. heck u can even right click back at ur base so they hit and run. so fun!! and if they have static defense u can us use pdd a couple times first so your ravens dont even get touched but thats a little tricky. practice makes perfect!
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On October 22 2010 08:36 shynee wrote:
I'm a 1700+ diamond Terran player and when Zerg goes muta/ling/bling, I destroy them with mass raven/marine/hellions. Since Ravens are cheap on minerals and heavy on gas, Terran can errect up to 10 barracks and constantly produce marines as well. You can own 30 mutas with 2-3 HSM, and own any Zerg expansion with auto turrets. I only harass with 1 hellion at the start, making the zerg build spine crawlers, etc. I just beat a zerg player who had 6 expansions vs my 3. This is the rough build order:
The beauty of ravens is that Zerg sacrifices a lot of units to fight auto turrets while under the constant threat of HSM.. At the same time, Terran will rarely lose any ravens in the battle, making them extremely cost effective. Simply erect turrets, use HSM and fly away. Flying away is easy because of HSM as well.
OPENING:
Start with 1/1/1 build
Make 1 hellion and 1 raven -> Research HSM asap, constantly build marines.
While harassing with 1 hellion, build 2nd CC.
Build to hold off the impending Zerg attack (missile turrets, 3-4 bunks at choke)
MACRO: (defensive stance into DOMINATION)
1. Keep building barracks and starports that can support constant raven/marine production
2. If the zerg is going hard on roaches, make 3-4 tanks.
3. Zerg should be harassing with mutas by now, use auto turrets and HSM to own them! Now you have air control. Go auto turret the shit out of roaming overlords or build 1-2 vikings.
4. When securing 3rd, go and harass zerg with Ravens. DO NOT SACRIFICE THEM!
5. The 3rd PF is needed primarily for gas, reset your defense with bunks, etc. As soon as this is up, you can pump ravens constantly and eventually own any zerg base/expansion with auto turrets.
6. While you harass with ravens, you should have a large army of stim/shield marines and hellions constantly harassing other areas of the map. Make some drop ships as well, it is impossible for zerg to split their army because Ravens are extremely difficult to deal with.
Its important to note that the bulk of the harass is from auto turrets because they only cost 50 energy. Having 32 Ravens with 200 energy, you can spam lay out 128 turrets. These turrets last for a VERY VERY long time. You will regain enough energy to lay out 60+ turrets before the original turrets timeout. Each turret is like a marine, but with 3 times the hp, 3 armor, 7 range, 8 damage, and 0.8 attack cooldown. Now add some HSM the other 50+ marines you have in your base. GG.
Order of upgrades (forgot the exact names of upgrades):
HSM, Building armour (for auto turrets), Increase starting raven energy, Duration, Range. I get HSM and building armour first because they help the most in the early defensive phase of the build.
I'm still experimenting, but I find that ravens give Terran so much map control. The only difficulty is a mass roach timing push, this is why defense is so important.
As a 1800 Zerg player, i can say that seeing a large number of Ravens definitely brings a feeling of dread over me. I have a feeling that Ravens are going to play a huge role in the standard ZvT. Instead of scourge sniping down sci vessels, it's going to be about awesome mutalisk splitting (to avoid HSM) and using Infestors to fungal ravens and shoot them down before they can get away.
It's gonna be pretty sick =]
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The Raven is a build order intensive unit.
What do I mean by that? If you aren't good enough to have an actual build order you most likely aren't good enough to use the Raven effectively.
Unfortunately most players can't banshee harass long enough to get the energy up, or their opponents can't hold the harass.
Watch SlayerSBoxer's games for Round of 64 in GSL Season 2. You will be educated on Raven usage.
EDIT; and that's in a TvT...
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I think Ravens are HIGHLY underrated and HIGHLY underused.
When T's start using them, they're really gonna own.
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hsm seems very good against Z when used with thors. pretty expensive to do that of course. *could you actually use vikings to counter mutas if you had hsm? mutas can't rly get close?
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Anytime you consider making a raven, you should go BATTLECRUISER!!
Hell, in some aspects it might be more cost effective- only having to purchase the yamoto+acouple compared to the tons and tons of upgrades for ravens.
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On October 21 2010 17:01 Nazza wrote:
Seeker Missile - "Let's make an ability that people can RUN AWAY FROM!"
What do you think about using 2ravens with Seeker missiles and launching it from 2 opposite directions on same target ?
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EPT
