Because while I was scouting his base, laughing at how far ahead I was he was building a spinecrawler behind my mineral line that I didn't notice.

I then laughed at how bad I was.

synapse

China13814 Posts

October 03 2010 16:43 GMT

#82

Going fast roaches will still instalose to speedling/baneling at close positions, so most of the time its just speedling baneling vs speedling baneling. It's fun to watch, but horrible to play - one mismicro and you're done for.

monterto

Canada103 Posts

October 03 2010 16:51 GMT

#83

I hated ZvZ until I learned to stop stupid cheese tactics. That being said, 6-7 pool is really annoying to have to face EVERY SINGLE MATCH. A simple answer is to 10 pool. That way you have lings out early enough to hold off any all in BS and you can put pressure on if they don't suck and choose not to 6 pool.

corpsepose

1678 Posts

October 03 2010 16:53 GMT

#84

On October 03 2010 23:06 breakingties wrote:
literally just been leaving a lot of zvzs cos i just couldnt be arsed playing it. so tedious

hahaha, i almost did that yesterday. they're a huge momentum killer after coming off of 3 zvt wins. just not as enjoyable as a matchup and im generally awful at zvz so its not exactly a fun situation

paltadase

Sweden33 Posts

October 03 2010 16:56 GMT

#85

i think most people would agree that speedling baneling is not that fun to play. besides that i think the mu is great. if the baneling was removed zvz would be like the funniest matchup i think. however zvt would be pretty hard

RoarMan

Canada745 Posts

October 03 2010 16:58 GMT

#86

Because Speedling > Roach > Baneling confuses people.

I find ZvZ to be easier and more enjoyable with each passing game, the match up has evolved a ton, I'm enjoying trying things like Roach/Baneling all in and 1 base muta.

nihoh

Australia978 Posts

October 03 2010 17:02 GMT

#87

Speedling > Roach > Baneling > Speedling

Droning too much, teching fast > Droning OK, teching OK > Droning too little, teching very little > Droning too much, teching fast

Head spins.

Piy

Scotland3152 Posts

October 03 2010 17:09 GMT

#88

I think it can become quite good fun. I've been trying getting spine crawlers faster with fewer blings and faster lair, which seems to work not bad.

It's mostly the fact that blings are retarded and can kill lings and drones so fast.

Ndugu

United States1078 Posts

October 03 2010 17:10 GMT

#89

ZvZ is the best mirror imho.

You just have to have good enough micro to survive ling/bling wars.

After that, everything is viable. I personally go Hydra/infestor to counter ling/bling/muta (banelings die in one-shot to fungals... mutas can be killed from outside of attack range by hydras without taking any damage).

Once they switch to ground, I go pure Roach/infestor with just enough hydras to shut down air play. Since all Z units have so little HP, fungal is godly.

Herculix

United States946 Posts

October 03 2010 17:14 GMT

#90

because people don't understand the match up and people hate what they don't understand. people hated it in beta when it was pure ling/bling because nobody understood timings well and that timing beat all others. now it doesn't, and the people that still hate the match up are the people who still don't understand the timings.

zJayy962

1363 Posts

October 03 2010 17:14 GMT

#91

I think in pro gaming, pure speedlings +1atk into expand will start to become the norm after a while. Simply because sure banelings are great, but with micro speedlings +1atk is way better than banelings. With this build you are just able to get mutas out faster and get more of them than the baneling counterpart. Progamers shouldnt have a problem microing speedlings vs slow banelings imo.

Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo

Germany2959 Posts

October 03 2010 17:18 GMT

#92

On October 04 2010 02:14 zJayy962 wrote:
I think in pro gaming, pure speedlings +1atk into expand will start to become the norm after a while. Simply because sure banelings are great, but with micro speedlings +1atk is way better than banelings. With this build you are just able to get mutas out faster and get more of them than the baneling counterpart. Progamers shouldnt have a problem microing speedlings vs slow banelings imo.

I don't think so. You cannot really micro zerglings well againt a good microing roach/bling player. So against a push you need several Spine Crawlers as well. That + the +1 attack both delay mutas quite a lot.

But yeh, there's a lot viable stuff.

0mgVitaminE

United States1278 Posts

October 03 2010 17:19 GMT

#93

I don't see why people hate it for not being a macro oriented matchup. Nothing is as fast paced or harsh on mistakes as zvz is, and the other matchups don't even compare in those categories. Personally I like it, it adds another play style.

Tazza

Korea (South)1678 Posts

October 03 2010 17:19 GMT

#94

I hate it because it doesn't reward you for trying to play a macro style game

breakingties

United Kingdom72 Posts

October 03 2010 17:22 GMT

#95

corpsepose wrote:

Show nested quote +

hahaha, i almost did that yesterday. they're a huge momentum killer after coming off of 3 zvt wins. just not as enjoyable as a matchup and im generally awful at zvz so its not exactly a fun situation

lol its always just sighhhhh

im just bad at it i guess, something about it just feels wrong

Wr3k

Canada2533 Posts

October 03 2010 17:25 GMT

#96

I don't think ZvZ is bad at all. There are currently several different viable playstyles. Once you get into higher level games the ling/bling all-in stuff doesn't work against someone who prepares for it. Roach builds are quite reliable and allow an earlier expansion on most maps. Usually people seem to opt for a passive roach opening into expand > roach/hydra/infestor > Ultra, or an agressive speedling opening into expand and then mutalisks > bling > ultra. Both are very different playstyles, and I see almost every single zerg unit used in this MU on a regular basis (except maybe the brood lord). Hell I even see people make corruptors if their opponent is going mutas.

Ever since they nerfed roach armor this MU has become much more exciting, and I honestly feel it is well designed.

I think alot of people whine and blame it on luck because they don't like dieing due to one mismicro vs a baneling. You have to remember that going lings or ling/bling vs ling/bling is insanely reliant on micro. If you don't like it make roaches and macro hard. Those who are saying you aren't rewarded for macro style play just don't know how to use roaches properly. A good player who is 1 base up on you is going to rape you even if you get those early mutas out or push agressively with 1 base roach.

When compared to SC1, this MU is much more interesting.

Archaic

United States4024 Posts

October 03 2010 17:29 GMT

#97

ZvZ is the one MU that actually makes me have chills down my spine. It gives me a taste of back in BW, like storm drops, DTs, scourge vs muta battles.

You see a baneling, and it's all or nothing. Dozens of time per game. It's so exciting. I love it

Slayer91

Ireland23335 Posts

October 03 2010 17:30 GMT

#98

Firstly, +1 armour would make far more sense since you'd survive baneling hits with 1 hp.
Secondly, i don't care if you have 3/3 speedlings with adrenal glands it takes 5 banelingsto wipe out 90% of them.
Thirdly, no way you can get any upgrades out before you die to ling/baneling attacks. If you want to play defensively and go muta you don't need upgrades at all. You can micro slow banelings too, move command into your worker line and no amount of micro can stop that. Going +1 attack won't even give you any more lings since ling/baneling can support 1 hatch 1 queen larvae just since,.

Zakka

Netherlands762 Posts

October 03 2010 17:39 GMT

#99

I actually like ZvZ but I think Blizzard should really fix it so that macro-play is possible

fdsdfg

United States1251 Posts

October 03 2010 17:46 GMT

#100

I don't like it because the opponent is so unpredictable. After an attack, you don't know if he's going to build 10 drones or 20 speedlings or expand.

Z has the unique ability to generate a full army almost instantly - in ZvT and ZvP this is balanced because the opponent can force a choke to make any attack useless. But in ZvZ these attacks aren't useless - you have to be ready for them.

Also I'm not good enough at macro to keep up with all the intel I need and still play cleanly - and I'm not good enough at micro to win ling/bling fights.