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Why does everybody hate ZvZ? Why is it considered the most stupid mirror matchup in rts history? (yes I've heard that one)
Except for the ling/bling war in the start (which can be easily nullified by getting 5 roaches to block your ramp) I can't see the problem with Z mirrors because midgame/T2 can be really awesome. All units can be used, (even corruptors!), and the amount of different unit comps are endless. In ZvT for example there is ling/bling/roach/mutas/infestors while corruptors and hydras isn't used at all, but in ZvZ they all serve a purpose.
So WHY is the Z mirror matchup so hated?
EDIT: You're not showing the enemy your roach warren but the point of roaches is to make the other zerg commit to his zergling/banelings, morphing them and getting a lot of them and then he realizes I've blocked my ramp just in time, so then I'm at an advantage. And no it's not for rushing mutas but for advancing to the midgame where T2 units is needed.
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Speedling/baneling play is the best way to play really, the matchup really tends to end up people throwing lings and banelings at each other and if you make drones/try to tech you lose. There are styles you can play to avoid this but its really hard and its easy to end up at a disadvantage. There's definitely a lot of largely undiscovered depth in the matchup past the ling/baneling phase thogh.
Been experimenting with stuff like ling/baneling with 2nd queen and spine crawler to defend and drone up with various transitions. Muta works well but it shouldn't really if they play eco and take 2 base with queens and contain you. roach/baneling transition into expo seems like a good idea with infestor tech later against muta but the transition is no where near as smooth as muta into expand.
For example a 5 roach block is can be beaten by canceling baneling nest/don't make banelings and
a: take an expo with speedlings before going roach off a way better eco by the time your speedlings aren't effecting.
b: tech muta off 2 spines with an expo and its hard to secure your expo before his because you can't be agressive against muta and need a lot of defense ready.
If you also go muta he has a gas advantage unless you take really, really fast gases but then he can expo way faster cause of mineral advantage.
c: Ling/baneling all in when you expect him to do a/b and only made 5 roaches.
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It's hated because it's stupid.
Your creep works against you so the game becomes about all out aggression and a lucky baneling strike one way or the other can end the game.
You cannot play a macro game in zvz as well so the games are always dull. It's just a horrible mirror.
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dont know, perhaps of the 8pool 2spine rushes, 6pool rushes, one base speedling all ins
but if the game survives the early stages its really fun but composition wise hydra infestor owns it all
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Who said it's hated? Afaik it's the most fun mirror matchup. People saying ZvZ is boring don't know how to defend early banelings.
Im regulary playing macro ZvZs lately, and they are so much fun. In the last weeks, this matchup has evolved quite a bit, people don't even rush for mutas anymore as hydra / infestor makes them so useless.
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Transitioning is hell in this matchup.
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Because ppl tend to play 6/7 pool all-ins, putting spines on ur creep, or rush for fast banelings with a 10 pool, just to blow up all ur drones with two blings in one second of not paying attention. Also if u r an average player like me, u have problems with the stupid bling wars and one time missmicro costs u the game. Also its luck depended if ur skill isnt good enough. Roach wars are insanely stupid as well, as the rush who gets first to air to win the game.
My ZvZs all looked like this:
1) All-in by the opponent: either I stop it = I win, or I lose it
2) Roach war, whoever tries to tech first dies
3) Bling war, whoever gets mutas first wins
By all means Im only an average (diamond) player, so those are my 2 cents why I hate this matchup.
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On October 03 2010 21:14 Minimi][ wrote:
dont know, perhaps of the 8pool 2spine rushes, 6pool rushes, one base speedling all ins
but if the game survives the early stages its really fun but composition wise hydra infestor owns it all
Ultralisk, mass roach. You can go roach/hydra/infestor but you will just run out of fungals and lose going pure hydra infestor ling (lings don't even matter vs large numbers of ultra/upgraded roach).
If you can build a huge mass maybe, but simple agressive play to waste your fungals before you have a lot of hydras works.
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On October 03 2010 21:15 evilm0nkey wrote:
Afaik it's the most fun mirror matchup.
Yep, it shows the true aggressive potential of zerg with the lack of them damn wallins ^^
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I don't know why.. I always thought ZvZ was one of the funniest mirror games due to the intense micro battle with banelings, and the "living on the edge" of teching faster than you really should and the amount of variation that you accually can go. Stick with ling/bane, go roach? go muta or hydra? take the expo? so and so...
My hate object in mirror games is now PvP. That is soo one sided, it's gateway units that transends into robotics, and it usually sticks in that way. In comparison, PvP is definitely least exiting playing..
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It's not boring. The fact that it's either bling spam, speedling all in, 1 base 6muta, hydra/roach and nothing else. And the fact that the way to beat it is through macro...which you can't get.
Like bling, you need better micro and macro. But assuming similar skill level it becomes a stupid base trade.
Speedling all in is retarded. It just is.
1 base muta ends up turning into hydra/roach mirrors. Then it becomes a macro game, and a ZvZ macro game doesn't work.
It's just stupid...I don't even know how to explain it.
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Any opening apart from Baneling is usually inferior. 5 Roach usually means your teching to mutas right? Well, it gives your opponent free expansion, map control, and he will still have Mutas around the same time as you, and even if he doesen't, he can just add 2 spore crawlers, which will keep him safe till he does. This usually leads to you losing due to him having more gas for a longer period of time.
Of course, it's more complicated then that. Aggressive roach openings aren't that good either since Speedlings are so incredibly strong against them, especially since Roaches lost one of their armor. The problem with Roaches also is the dreadful speedling runby, you leave your base, your not even half way towards his base and there is 20 lings killing everything in your base. And with Roach openings the other Zerg can easily expand and 2 hatch speedling pump > 1 hatch roach. Add a few spine crawlers if map allows it, your pretty safe.
Yes, ZvZ can be quite fun if it comes down to 2 base vs 2 base lair play, but usually one of the players has an advantage by then, and if both go for baneling vs baneling the game usually ends quite fast, or, one of the players again get a big advantage.
I've been messing around with a lot of aggressive roach builds, and some of the work greatly if your opponent makes the mistake of thinking your going the typical Roach > Muta build. But any type of roach build that I've done get's owned by the speedling > expand > pump drones here and there but mainly focus on Zerglings and teching up (you want Spire eventually.) And when I move out, the mass of Zerglings just overwhelm me, or just run straight to my base while I'm running across the map, triggering a base trade which I can only lose.
Just my 2 cents.
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You can't wall in, you can't build static defenses, you get cheesed all the time and it's extremely, extremely random. 2 banelings in the right spot ends the game, spreading creep is bad, and it's generally not a very good indicator of a player's skill.
When IdrA says he could 3-1 Artosis in ZvZ, there is a problem.
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I always like ZvZ because its not imba 
Anyway I think people do not have that much experience with ZvZ because there is not many Z players out there so you do not get play that much ZvZs. I think this is one of the causes.
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I like ZvZ it's realy fun alot micro and macro involved, you need to get just enought things to stay alive force your opponent to do things make counter attacks, its all about maximazing everything baneling micro and ling micro, building placement is so important in this matchup, getting roaches can win you or lose you the game.
Most people hate it becouse in ZvZ you cannot be passive and win. If you stay passivle and defend your opponent will just out macro you, If you are too offensive your opponent will sneak baneling attack and kill your drones. ling baneling get raped by fungal, roaches are raped by mutas. going hydra is risky vs ling baneling but with good roach hydra number and upgrades it may be very good.
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if i got this right ppl massling baneling because whoever make roaches will get expansion up later. as soon as someone make roach it usually turns into macro game
i think the mu is really well designed to be honest, well it would be if we had lan latency.
its a good thing sometimes when a matchup is not too complicated with 10 different bos or unit mixtures, then its more skill and less luck. tvt theres a pretty big luck factor that u cant escape from with any build and thats why im starting to like zvz more
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I LOVE this match up. Its more dynamic than people make you think.
Speedlings are absolute terrorists of mineral lines, so people can either get banelings to take them out pre-emptively or get roaches and put them in a ramp/ choke.
In turn, the speedling goer can go banelings to counter the other guys banelings, or try for a baneling bust.
If the opponent has gathered a mass of roaches you can hold it by getting +1 melee and getting amazing surrounds, while reinforcing with roaches yourself.
Once you get to Lair tech you can decide if you want to be the defender with hydra's, or the harrasser with muta's. Sporecrawlers can defend against early muta's and hydra's are really cost effective against them. However hydra's lack the ability to go around and kill overlords and harrass mineral lines.
The muta - goer can go for banelings to counter the hydra's, in turn the hydra-goer can go roach to tank for the hydra's or infestor.
Infestors are stupidly effective against banelings, one shotting them with a fungal growth.
I find it to be a really fun, back and forth, micro macro battle. You need to give it your all to get the best out of baneling manouvres. Tank banelings with roaches, defend against muta's while making sure he doesnt catch your overlords. Keeping up with spawn larva and making sure you keep one step ahead in the drone count.
I love this match up so much, that I would argue that most of the time, the most skilled zerg wins above the other. Sure there are lucky baneling blowups. But on the other hand its one of the least forgiving match ups, which I find really exciting and fun.
On the other hand, I find TvT extremely boring. I couldn't care less about marauder balls attacking tanks or dropping while vikings keep air controll. Its one of my least favourite match ups to watch and sadly its probably one of the most common mirrors on tournaments.
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I think ZvZ is generally hated because one tiny mis-micro will cost you the game. As such, when you lose you feel bad but when you win it didn't seem like you did much at all. However, it can be very intense and if a ZvZ gets into the lair stage for both players it becomes a bit more like the other matchups.
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Someone said ZvZ is like taking in turns of kicking each other in the balls, and I think that's pretty much spot on. It's a very exhausting match up.
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On October 03 2010 21:28 MorroW wrote:
if i got this right ppl massling baneling because whoever make roaches will get expansion up later. as soon as someone make roach it usually turns into macro game
i think the mu is really well designed to be honest, well it would be if we had lan latency.
its a good thing sometimes when a matchup is not too complicated with 10 different bos or unit mixtures, then its more skill and less luck. tvt theres a pretty big luck factor that u cant escape from with any build and thats why im starting to like zvz more
Yeah this is about right. Roaches are terrible against lings early game and are a lot less useful except for not dying to banelings, so its really a sign that you're scared of ling/baneling play.
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EPT
