EPTWhy is ZvZ hated? - Page 10
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Typho0n
Canada276 Posts
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sp00n-
48 Posts
I'm trying to smooth it out but so far it's 9 or 10 OV (Depending on how I want to play this game) 12/13 gas, 14 pool and 16 in base hatch. I pull guys off gas when I hit 100 gas and dont put them back on untill atleast the 1. or 2. larva burst. From there I pump out 3 queens addition to mass lings to get map control and if it succeeds I expand right from there. When the expand is up I get 2 more queens so 5 total and it's really overkill against any early air because you have 3 queens with energy for transfusions and while he was teching to air I was massing ground and completely roflstomp them when I fend off the first mutalisks(I'm always harrassing keeping his ground in check) I can see baneling and roaches could be a problem but that shouldnt stop you from trying this build because the transition is very easy to basicly everything you want. I might do a post about this build when I have figured out the exact timings and polished the build a little bit. So I need to go work on my gameplay so I can give you an update. I havent tried this against T or P but I will be. I would love to see a diamond player try this a few times against Z and post me replays. But yeah ZvZ is pretty fun, I like all matchups except PvP | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
Saksen vs LuffY on Lost Temple Thats a 48 minute long ZvZ with every unit used aside from mutalisks. There was some small agression as we teched to infestor. I teched to broodlord after and he went ultralisks. I like it when people go roach, as they give me adequate mapcontroll to get a natural up and get my roach warren up slightly later. I like it when they go baneling too, as you have to emphasise on your micro skills. These things don't always end up in zergling baneling all the time. Once you get past that early game it actually gets really really fun. | ||
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ppshchik
United States862 Posts
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truckerdaves
United States66 Posts
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Rotemetoot
21 Posts
First you have the mind games of banelings speedlings and there-after you have the most deep game available as a Zerg in sc2. I love to anticipate counters on my counters etcetera. EVERY unit is very useful and teching "back" is also useful, for example, making banelings with burrow in tier 2,5 to counter his hydra's. My personal strat which I like (not used that often though) is the "baneling feint" or the "baneling defense" Make a few banelings (nicely burrowed at your choke i.e.) with the sole purpose of defending or acting out a baneling war while going for roaches, infestors, etcetera... | ||
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Carefoot
Canada410 Posts
My last Z mirror: + Show Spoiler + 1400 point zerg player goes a shit ton of banelings, I go for roach + tech, mutas, I take air control, upgrade my mutas and deny him any more expansions then his natural I see a lot of "opinions" on here and not enough facts. Personally there are ways to progress the matchup into the macro game and though + Show Spoiler + the game I post is more of a mid game game, less of a late game-game - I feel whenever I can turn the game into a macro game I can win in the long run because I love droning up Regardless work on you're sim city and you can negate baneling/ling completly with a ring around the rosey with your drones. Have fun with it! | ||
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Speight
Australia152 Posts
I don't know whether I'm being a little too rigid with my early game build but I'm finding it really tough to find a safe opening in ZvZ without being too far behind economically. Once I get to mid/late game, I start to feel insanely comfortable, its just staying alive up to that point that irks me so much. If someone can advise me a good way to practice and figure out this matchup I'd love to hear your thoughts. | ||
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wunil
United States9 Posts
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lagbzz
Poland171 Posts
 Thanks a lot. | ||
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Psionith
United States35 Posts
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dukethegold
Canada5645 Posts
It's either BBS or an hour of turtling into mined out map into mass battlecruiser battle at the hour and half mark. Whoever has the most banked minerals and better yamato cloning wins. We merely need another Boxer in SCII. Or it would wound up like BW's ZvZ. However, with the inclusion of banelings, SC2 ZvZ seems to have a bit more of a randomness (not good btw) to it. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
TvT is the best though. | ||
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TheHedonist
54 Posts
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Half
United States2554 Posts
On October 06 2010 05:42 truckerdaves wrote: 90% of the matches i play ZvZ my opponent goes Blings/mutas. Thats why I hate it. And you do the same and it becomes an incredibly skill based MU, and with similar skill level players, transitions naturally into midgame, not through the virtue of lack of early game aggression opportunity, but solid, exciting, intense play. No shitty timing pushes with hidden tech. SC2 ZvZ seems to have a bit more of a randomness (not good btw) to it. How the fuck are banelings random? By that logic, WC3 was 100% luck, because it required similar micro with worse latency. Its literally 10x less random then ZvZ in BW because while in both games they are heavily based on BOs, in SC2 early game aggression gives you a lot more control over the direction of the game. If you play your early game adequately you should never be surprised by tech. I actually like it more than PvP. PvP is aweful. You'd think zealot/sentry/stalker would be micro intensive, but it really isn't enough where micro can overcome a army advantage. Perfect micro=+1 or 2 zealots with flawed micro -_-. (On neutral ground ofc) Imo ZvZ is kind of what I wished all the MUs were more like, maybe with a tiny bit less emphasis on micro because it isn't wc3. Econ decisions matter a shitton early game but can be lost with a single poor, thoughtless attack. Exciting from the beginning. Every strategy viable, but not random. Unified openings that exclude "cheesy" all ins (except 6pool, even 7pool can be easily countered). Potential for great macro game. Early game gains that are relatively insignficant result in significant advantages that heavily influnece the rest of the game. Enough tools given to the player to break out of early game deficit due to overall superior play. When you're playing toss or terran, you have to gamble, and the game dynamic is extremely uneven. It's retarded because the single smallest misstep can cost you the game... even if you were dominating it. No it can't. It can only cost you the game if you were merely had an advantage. So you lose 12 lings. So what. Unless you were all inning, and those lings did significant damage, you can have another set in no time. Man did any of you play SC1? Single mistakes did cause losses back then too, with high impact units like lurkers and mines much more prevalent. In the other MUs, its far too hard to lose when your at an advantage and far too hard to win when your not. Against toss or terran, if they can manage to delay your hatch long enough, you literally cannot come back unless you rely on cheesy all in strategies that catch them unexpected, or they fuck up. In ZvZ, even a sixpool with 5/6 lost drones and delayed mining can be overcome with perfect baneling micro and ling splits and simply outplaying. And from a spectator perspective, very little in SC2 can match seeing good b/ling micro on both sides each splitting like crazy trying to snipe blings with individual lings. Its probably one of the few things in the game they replicates the everyday epicness of reavers or good vulture micro, and does it with fantastic design, without resorting to gimping AI or UI. Most of the problem I have with ZvZ is the randomness of the early game. I don't know whether I need just 1 practice partner to play against to develop some good builds but everytime I ladder ZvZ I go into it with a build in mind that I want to practice. I then get smashed for one reason or another 12pool into blings is solid versus almost anything. Even a seven pool rush can be defended with minimal losses. There are some builds that can shut it down fast, but none that can end the game after shutting it down. A roach wall gives you all the info you need on what to do next when taken in context on how the games been going so far. | ||
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Jtn
444 Posts
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
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xs101
Romania86 Posts
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Carefoot
Canada410 Posts
On October 06 2010 07:34 lagbzz wrote: Nice rep Carefoot, I'm really struggling with this 1st gas when playing roaches... Consider morphing a few corruptors, like 2 or 3, they really make an advantage when facing mutas. And so I'm your 124th subscriber! Thanks a lot.Thanks I'll get some content out once I have a new desk =] (sitting on the floor typing this) | ||
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HollowLord
United States3862 Posts
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