Why does everybody hate ZvZ? Why is it considered the most stupid mirror matchup in rts history? (yes I've heard that one)
Except for the ling/bling war in the start (which can be easily nullified by getting 5 roaches to block your ramp) I can't see the problem with Z mirrors because midgame/T2 can be really awesome. All units can be used, (even corruptors!), and the amount of different unit comps are endless. In ZvT for example there is ling/bling/roach/mutas/infestors while corruptors and hydras isn't used at all, but in ZvZ they all serve a purpose.
So WHY is the Z mirror matchup so hated?
EDIT: You're not showing the enemy your roach warren but the point of roaches is to make the other zerg commit to his zergling/banelings, morphing them and getting a lot of them and then he realizes I've blocked my ramp just in time, so then I'm at an advantage. And no it's not for rushing mutas but for advancing to the midgame where T2 units is needed.
Speedling/baneling play is the best way to play really, the matchup really tends to end up people throwing lings and banelings at each other and if you make drones/try to tech you lose. There are styles you can play to avoid this but its really hard and its easy to end up at a disadvantage. There's definitely a lot of largely undiscovered depth in the matchup past the ling/baneling phase thogh.
Been experimenting with stuff like ling/baneling with 2nd queen and spine crawler to defend and drone up with various transitions. Muta works well but it shouldn't really if they play eco and take 2 base with queens and contain you. roach/baneling transition into expo seems like a good idea with infestor tech later against muta but the transition is no where near as smooth as muta into expand.
For example a 5 roach block is can be beaten by canceling baneling nest/don't make banelings and a: take an expo with speedlings before going roach off a way better eco by the time your speedlings aren't effecting. b: tech muta off 2 spines with an expo and its hard to secure your expo before his because you can't be agressive against muta and need a lot of defense ready. If you also go muta he has a gas advantage unless you take really, really fast gases but then he can expo way faster cause of mineral advantage. c: Ling/baneling all in when you expect him to do a/b and only made 5 roaches.
Who said it's hated? Afaik it's the most fun mirror matchup. People saying ZvZ is boring don't know how to defend early banelings. Im regulary playing macro ZvZs lately, and they are so much fun. In the last weeks, this matchup has evolved quite a bit, people don't even rush for mutas anymore as hydra / infestor makes them so useless.
Because ppl tend to play 6/7 pool all-ins, putting spines on ur creep, or rush for fast banelings with a 10 pool, just to blow up all ur drones with two blings in one second of not paying attention. Also if u r an average player like me, u have problems with the stupid bling wars and one time missmicro costs u the game. Also its luck depended if ur skill isnt good enough. Roach wars are insanely stupid as well, as the rush who gets first to air to win the game. My ZvZs all looked like this:
1) All-in by the opponent: either I stop it = I win, or I lose it 2) Roach war, whoever tries to tech first dies 3) Bling war, whoever gets mutas first wins
By all means Im only an average (diamond) player, so those are my 2 cents why I hate this matchup.
On October 03 2010 21:14 Minimi][ wrote: dont know, perhaps of the 8pool 2spine rushes, 6pool rushes, one base speedling all ins
but if the game survives the early stages its really fun but composition wise hydra infestor owns it all
Ultralisk, mass roach. You can go roach/hydra/infestor but you will just run out of fungals and lose going pure hydra infestor ling (lings don't even matter vs large numbers of ultra/upgraded roach).
If you can build a huge mass maybe, but simple agressive play to waste your fungals before you have a lot of hydras works.
I don't know why.. I always thought ZvZ was one of the funniest mirror games due to the intense micro battle with banelings, and the "living on the edge" of teching faster than you really should and the amount of variation that you accually can go. Stick with ling/bane, go roach? go muta or hydra? take the expo? so and so...
My hate object in mirror games is now PvP. That is soo one sided, it's gateway units that transends into robotics, and it usually sticks in that way. In comparison, PvP is definitely least exiting playing..
It's not boring. The fact that it's either bling spam, speedling all in, 1 base 6muta, hydra/roach and nothing else. And the fact that the way to beat it is through macro...which you can't get.
Like bling, you need better micro and macro. But assuming similar skill level it becomes a stupid base trade.
Speedling all in is retarded. It just is.
1 base muta ends up turning into hydra/roach mirrors. Then it becomes a macro game, and a ZvZ macro game doesn't work.
It's just stupid...I don't even know how to explain it.
Any opening apart from Baneling is usually inferior. 5 Roach usually means your teching to mutas right? Well, it gives your opponent free expansion, map control, and he will still have Mutas around the same time as you, and even if he doesen't, he can just add 2 spore crawlers, which will keep him safe till he does. This usually leads to you losing due to him having more gas for a longer period of time.
Of course, it's more complicated then that. Aggressive roach openings aren't that good either since Speedlings are so incredibly strong against them, especially since Roaches lost one of their armor. The problem with Roaches also is the dreadful speedling runby, you leave your base, your not even half way towards his base and there is 20 lings killing everything in your base. And with Roach openings the other Zerg can easily expand and 2 hatch speedling pump > 1 hatch roach. Add a few spine crawlers if map allows it, your pretty safe.
Yes, ZvZ can be quite fun if it comes down to 2 base vs 2 base lair play, but usually one of the players has an advantage by then, and if both go for baneling vs baneling the game usually ends quite fast, or, one of the players again get a big advantage.
I've been messing around with a lot of aggressive roach builds, and some of the work greatly if your opponent makes the mistake of thinking your going the typical Roach > Muta build. But any type of roach build that I've done get's owned by the speedling > expand > pump drones here and there but mainly focus on Zerglings and teching up (you want Spire eventually.) And when I move out, the mass of Zerglings just overwhelm me, or just run straight to my base while I'm running across the map, triggering a base trade which I can only lose.
You can't wall in, you can't build static defenses, you get cheesed all the time and it's extremely, extremely random. 2 banelings in the right spot ends the game, spreading creep is bad, and it's generally not a very good indicator of a player's skill.
When IdrA says he could 3-1 Artosis in ZvZ, there is a problem.
Anyway I think people do not have that much experience with ZvZ because there is not many Z players out there so you do not get play that much ZvZs. I think this is one of the causes.
I like ZvZ it's realy fun alot micro and macro involved, you need to get just enought things to stay alive force your opponent to do things make counter attacks, its all about maximazing everything baneling micro and ling micro, building placement is so important in this matchup, getting roaches can win you or lose you the game. Most people hate it becouse in ZvZ you cannot be passive and win. If you stay passivle and defend your opponent will just out macro you, If you are too offensive your opponent will sneak baneling attack and kill your drones. ling baneling get raped by fungal, roaches are raped by mutas. going hydra is risky vs ling baneling but with good roach hydra number and upgrades it may be very good.
if i got this right ppl massling baneling because whoever make roaches will get expansion up later. as soon as someone make roach it usually turns into macro game
i think the mu is really well designed to be honest, well it would be if we had lan latency.
its a good thing sometimes when a matchup is not too complicated with 10 different bos or unit mixtures, then its more skill and less luck. tvt theres a pretty big luck factor that u cant escape from with any build and thats why im starting to like zvz more
I LOVE this match up. Its more dynamic than people make you think. Speedlings are absolute terrorists of mineral lines, so people can either get banelings to take them out pre-emptively or get roaches and put them in a ramp/ choke.
In turn, the speedling goer can go banelings to counter the other guys banelings, or try for a baneling bust.
If the opponent has gathered a mass of roaches you can hold it by getting +1 melee and getting amazing surrounds, while reinforcing with roaches yourself.
Once you get to Lair tech you can decide if you want to be the defender with hydra's, or the harrasser with muta's. Sporecrawlers can defend against early muta's and hydra's are really cost effective against them. However hydra's lack the ability to go around and kill overlords and harrass mineral lines.
The muta - goer can go for banelings to counter the hydra's, in turn the hydra-goer can go roach to tank for the hydra's or infestor. Infestors are stupidly effective against banelings, one shotting them with a fungal growth.
I find it to be a really fun, back and forth, micro macro battle. You need to give it your all to get the best out of baneling manouvres. Tank banelings with roaches, defend against muta's while making sure he doesnt catch your overlords. Keeping up with spawn larva and making sure you keep one step ahead in the drone count.
I love this match up so much, that I would argue that most of the time, the most skilled zerg wins above the other. Sure there are lucky baneling blowups. But on the other hand its one of the least forgiving match ups, which I find really exciting and fun.
On the other hand, I find TvT extremely boring. I couldn't care less about marauder balls attacking tanks or dropping while vikings keep air controll. Its one of my least favourite match ups to watch and sadly its probably one of the most common mirrors on tournaments.
I think ZvZ is generally hated because one tiny mis-micro will cost you the game. As such, when you lose you feel bad but when you win it didn't seem like you did much at all. However, it can be very intense and if a ZvZ gets into the lair stage for both players it becomes a bit more like the other matchups.
On October 03 2010 21:28 MorroW wrote: if i got this right ppl massling baneling because whoever make roaches will get expansion up later. as soon as someone make roach it usually turns into macro game
i think the mu is really well designed to be honest, well it would be if we had lan latency.
its a good thing sometimes when a matchup is not too complicated with 10 different bos or unit mixtures, then its more skill and less luck. tvt theres a pretty big luck factor that u cant escape from with any build and thats why im starting to like zvz more
Yeah this is about right. Roaches are terrible against lings early game and are a lot less useful except for not dying to banelings, so its really a sign that you're scared of ling/baneling play.
I would say more of the same responses; ZvZ is a very interesting matchup since all the units can be used. Ling/bling is simply the most common and easiest opener; it provides some quick and easy wins so alot of players stick with it. Ever since I was lvl'ing up through platinum (oh so long ago) I tended towards macro-oriented play. There is definitely a couple minute window where you can put down an expo (instead of gas/ling speed) and set up a small simcity to make ling/bling play more or less useless. At that point either the ling/bling player gives up his allin and drops a hatch, or he continues to try and take down your defenses. Either way they will fall behind you in econ and you can both transition to midgame.
I love ZvZ, I feel that zergs can do a lot of stuff in the mirror match. If blings are involved it is really tense but once you start to get to lair mutas, roaches, hydras, infestors, everything is not only fun, but doable.
On October 03 2010 21:28 MorroW wrote: if i got this right ppl massling baneling because whoever make roaches will get expansion up later. as soon as someone make roach it usually turns into macro game
i think the mu is really well designed to be honest, well it would be if we had lan latency.
its a good thing sometimes when a matchup is not too complicated with 10 different bos or unit mixtures, then its more skill and less luck. tvt theres a pretty big luck factor that u cant escape from with any build and thats why im starting to like zvz more
Yeah this is about right. Roaches are terrible against lings early game and are a lot less useful except for not dying to banelings, so its really a sign that you're scared of ling/baneling play.
No Roaches are okay against Lings. 6 Roaches + 2 Banelings will rape 400 Lings. And so will 30 Roaches.
Unless you tech switch you're never going to win Speedling/Baneling against a good Roach/Bling player later on.
If all of the maps in the game weren't totally awful I might agree that this matchup has some potential. But since I can't spawn a new batch of blings before his slings get into my main on all of the current maps, this matchup is terrible.
Also, some of us are playing with ~200 ms lag because bloody blizzard didn't give us lan play. At that latency this matchup really becomes a crapshot.
ZvZ is very intense and it is so hard to transition from the zling-bling compostion. If you did, you have to worry if the opponent used the 300 for zerglings which could cost you the game. But it is a matchup where any kind of unit is great and the first person to make ultralisks, wins.
On October 03 2010 21:19 413X wrote: I don't know why.. I always thought ZvZ was one of the funniest mirror games due to the intense micro battle with banelings, and the "living on the edge" of teching faster than you really should and the amount of variation that you accually can go. Stick with ling/bane, go roach? go muta or hydra? take the expo? so and so...
My hate object in mirror games is now PvP. That is soo one sided, it's gateway units that transends into robotics, and it usually sticks in that way. In comparison, PvP is definitely least exiting playing..
Yes I was thinking a bit about infestor too in this matchup, it should crunch everything backed up with an unit like hydra.
I agree with everyone that thinks it's the best match-up. It sure gives me the fear when playing but it's really nice to have a game where the opponent is not walling off and playing defensively.
Zerg players are used to playing macro intensive games and this is the setup in which they have to react extremely fast to an advancing baneling army, which can potentially end the whole game in seconds. this doesn't happen in any other match ups, imo. also the fact is, micro plays the biggest role in this match-up.
I love ZvZ as well. By far my favorite matchup. I do early baneling nest as they scout, but I use my 2nd 100 gas on Lair (first 100 gas on ling speed) before starting to do banelings. Many people overuse their early game gas for banelings or roaches and have a hard time teching up.
It makes them think they need to get banelings and wastes their gas while I tech to lair first for mutas. After that, I do very limited baneling play to try to take out as many lings/drones as possible (and also to make them waste gas).
The only ZvZ strat I hate is 9 pool proxy spine crawler. I have a very hard time dealing with that.
If both players have equal control with lings and banelings, the game WILL go into mid-game 2-base play which I find to be very enjoyable.
On October 03 2010 21:28 MorroW wrote: if i got this right ppl massling baneling because whoever make roaches will get expansion up later. as soon as someone make roach it usually turns into macro game
i think the mu is really well designed to be honest, well it would be if we had lan latency.
its a good thing sometimes when a matchup is not too complicated with 10 different bos or unit mixtures, then its more skill and less luck. tvt theres a pretty big luck factor that u cant escape from with any build and thats why im starting to like zvz more
Yeah this is about right. Roaches are terrible against lings early game and are a lot less useful except for not dying to banelings, so its really a sign that you're scared of ling/baneling play.
No Roaches are okay against Lings. 6 Roaches + 2 Banelings will rape 400 Lings. And so will 30 Roaches.
I think ZvZ is alot more complex than most people think. Its just that Roachbuilds usually play blind for a long time, which makes it harder to play. But if you find good timings for Pushes it might be superior to ling -> muta builds.
Going roach in SC2 ZvZ is like going hydra in BW ZvZ, yes, you can not die immediately, but you give up all of your map control and scouting information.
I don't see many zvzs, but watching them in the beta and early release, it made sense that people hated them (for reasons already listed in the thread). But of the few I've been catching recently, I think zvz is getting more interesting. It seems to me a mostly unexplored match-up, probably because there are just not that many high-level zvzs, but there is a lot of potential and I think it will evolve into something really interesting.
I'm no expert on this subject tho. But I am looking forward to the zvz metagame evolving.
On October 03 2010 21:28 MorroW wrote: if i got this right ppl massling baneling because whoever make roaches will get expansion up later. as soon as someone make roach it usually turns into macro game
i think the mu is really well designed to be honest, well it would be if we had lan latency.
its a good thing sometimes when a matchup is not too complicated with 10 different bos or unit mixtures, then its more skill and less luck. tvt theres a pretty big luck factor that u cant escape from with any build and thats why im starting to like zvz more
Yeah this is about right. Roaches are terrible against lings early game and are a lot less useful except for not dying to banelings, so its really a sign that you're scared of ling/baneling play.
No Roaches are okay against Lings. 6 Roaches + 2 Banelings will rape 400 Lings. And so will 30 Roaches.
Stop trolling.
Roach baneling does beat pure ling solidly, but that requires both a baneling nest and a roach warren, and a lot of gas. The problem with this is your attack is so slow because of speedliing backstabs and expo spinecrawler into roach or spinecrawler into muta both beat it solidly. Not totally sure if you can open roach baneling fast enough to deny him an expo, or transition into infestors and queens fast enough to deal with a muta, its something I want to test as well.
I've had some crazy ZvZs, but for the most part its usually just a Ling (Bane + Zerg) War, and whoever gets lucky wins. I think thats the biggest problem: a lot of the time it isn't so much skill as it is luck. One good/bad baneling is game-changing. There's a lot of very effective all-in play and overall stupid playstyles in ZvZ. Also, I actually LOVE it when someone goes Roach in ZvZ because I've never lost to someone who roached.
EDIT: TBH, I feel like all the mirror match-ups are pretty stupid. PvP not so much anymore since warp-gate all-ins aren't as effective as they were.
You ask a question that isn't true? It's not hated and it's not stupid. In fact, it's probably the favorite matchup of everyone I know. TVT on the other hand, ever since BW, different question. so yeah >:I
ZvZ, especially in team games where others have been wiped out can be fun. Had a mirror match like that yesterday, two zerg and one protoss. It was muta war all over the place. I can imagine 1v1 is slightly different, though.
I really think ZvZ is fun to watch. I had a friend who basically did a ZvZ game after the othes got wiped out. I think ZvZ is really dynamic thanks to the creep. PvP however... like others have said, it usually just comes down to who has the most colossi :/ And I guess TvT is just as boring, as it probably comes down to who got the largest bio ball.
i kinda like ZvZ. but i tend to avoid the baneling antics as much as possible. had decent success with fast muta play + simcity (sometimes 3-4 roaches early to block ramp/holes in the mins) at ~1,5k.
usually can enter midgame atleast on equal footing and just go from there.
that said i do hate the cheesiness and buildorder wins of ZvZ. but once that phase its over its a fun matchup to play.
On October 03 2010 22:41 sob3k wrote: Going roach in SC2 ZvZ is like going hydra in BW ZvZ, yes, you can not die immediately, but you give up all of your map control and scouting information.
In short, its bad.
No.. i think youre exaggerating it alot because infestors counter ling/muta play very hard, and you can get queens as additional antiair that doesnt cost gas.
This match up I think really emphasizes CONTROL over anything- Only in ZvZ where exceptional micro CAN outpower exceptional macro. People I think get extremely frustrated when banelings can turn the entire game around. It makes for some serious gameplay though- Being able to field your army in ZvZ is how you win- positioning of lings, blings, roaches... In TvT, there are a LOT of different tech options you can take, and protoss almost always has to get the robo bay in PvP- but in zerg... Its whoever can manage their armies the most wins
Its sad though because I've never played a ZvZ where I've actually gotten to hive tech- Getting ultras is nye impossible to do. Infester is the the best tech you can hope for within reason.
It might be my play style but 90% of my games are long macro based games.
When it gets to the muta stage try mixing in two corruptors and use corruption it gives you a big edge vs mutas. Banelings blowing up drones statement i feel is just so stupid. If they get banes to your drones it means you can do basic micro of pulling drones and killing banes with lings. I'm not sure what standard of people your playing against but sending in one ling at a target bane will 99% of the time kill that bane.
Have you ever opened up a spine/spore opening? Ever microed two spines to insta kill banes? Had enough scouting/game sense to engage his mutas everytime he tries to harrass so your not losing all your drones? Have you even used infestors in a ZvZ match up? (im talking using all their abilities not just fungal) Can you actually scout a zerg base since they cant wall in to spot the speedling all in, bane all in, roach opener, fast mutas? Do you know a good way to sim city your base to make you baneline immune? Have you actually tried walling off with zerg?
The only thing ive found that doesnt work in ZvZ is hydras, ive never seen anyone or myself use them sucessfully with eventually losing.
Because zerg has almost no options in the early game (where most of the action in zvz happens). If you've seen one zvz matchup, you've seen them all really.
It's a fun matchup and people cry because it takes good multitasking, micro, and apm. If you make mistakes microing it's immediately noticeable, too, which makes people salty.
I'd like to see more competitive zerg mirror matchups, just to see how the game progresses on a pro-level. That seems unlikely for now, though.. but I think the reason most people dislike ZvZ is how dangerous and effective blings are. It's like 2 loose blings in your base can change the entire game -- which can be pretty nerve racking.
In my experience, the only valid build for ZvZ is ling/bling/muta. If you get harassed by early ling pressure you can just plop down a few roaches and simcity while waiting for muta.
On October 03 2010 22:45 bokchoi wrote: I've had some crazy ZvZs, but for the most part its usually just a Ling (Bane + Zerg) War, and whoever gets lucky wins. I think thats the biggest problem: a lot of the time it isn't so much skill as it is luck. One good/bad baneling is game-changing. There's a lot of very effective all-in play and overall stupid playstyles in ZvZ. Also, I actually LOVE it when someone goes Roach in ZvZ because I've never lost to someone who roached.
Sorry, but there is absolutely no luck in ling+bane war. You have to blame yourself for your losses.
IMO one of the most important parts of ling/baneling mirrors is overlord positioning. It's not hard to play defensively with banelings while teching quickly if you have your overlords scouting ahead of your ramp for you. A few banelings spread out above your ramp and a group of speedlings to stop suicide lings can constantly defend against ling/bling all-ins.
ZvZ is an awesome matchup, my favorite mirror by far. It's just a little intense so after a few I'm pretty tired :s
Dunno like 30% of my ZvZ's are macro games where we get Ultras, broodlords and maxed armies, that's pretty cool.
People don't like ZvZs cause it's very hard and intense MU. You need to know exactly what your opponent is doing and a single mistake and lose you a game.
I enjoy playing ZvZ a lot but for anyone except zerg players it will probably be hated. I can enjoy a TvP, hell, I love TvPs. TvTs can be awful or really interesting depending on your patience, and PvP is all right to watch. PvP can be extremely one dimensional, but sometimes phoenix play makes it amazing.
ZvZ? As a zerg player I don't even like watching them, while there's intense micro seeing nothing but ling/bling and occasionally roaches in 99% of all ZvZs is incredibly boring to watch. Even seeing top tier zerg players duke it out is a snoozefest.
b/c zergs are forced to go speedling/baneling on 90% of the blizz map pool. You can only go 14 hatch on meta/LT and even then its risky if you are in close positions, and very hard to hold off Roaches in meta 14 hatching.
ZvZ is by far the worst matchup. Of course there's undiscovered deptth to the MU, but that's what happens when 90% of your ZvZ's end within the first 6 minutes.
I like ZvZs with friends or other Zergs who are looking for a good, solid game. On ladder, though, 90% of the time I get 6pooled. I believing "cheesing" to be a necessary evil in the game, but in ZvZ ladder, I feel like there's little point in playing.
Edit: this is low-diamond, anyway. Hopefully it'll get more interesting to me as I get higher.
ZvZ is fucking awesome man. Zergling banelings wars really get the adrenaline going. People that can't control zerglings and banelings hate ZvZ because they lose a lot. People who lose ZvZ's and then practice micro love it when they can win.
ZvZ is the best MU in starcraft imo. Tons of early game aggression without really hitting all in territory, smooth transitions into macro oriented lategame with skill based units like mutas and infestors. Only issue I have is shared creep.
Lately i've stopped going Muta past the early game phase of Roach Ling Baneling guesswork. Infestor + roaches + hydras, and vary the numbers of each depending on enemy composition.
Somehow it reminds me of Orc mirror back in Warcraft 3... Mixing it closely between grunt raider and spiritwalker, and adjusting numbers of each. (Orc players will know what I mean)
On October 04 2010 01:07 nihoh wrote: Lately i've stopped going Muta past the early game phase of Roach Ling Baneling guesswork. Infestor + roaches + hydras, and vary the numbers of each depending on enemy composition.
Somehow it reminds me of Orc mirror back in Warcraft 3... Mixing it closely between grunt raider and spiritwalker, and adjusting numbers of each. (Orc players will know what I mean)
i, 1k rating or so and after i stopped RUSHING for muta ive won more games than ive lost.
Instead experimenting with ways to fast expand, a generic "safe" extractor into 14 pool for instance lets your opponent get an easy expansion a couple of crawlers, double queen and sets itself up nicely and you cant do anything but expand yourself or go for an allinn. in zvz burrow infestor have won most of my games xD sad to say but infestor queen roach is very good.
On October 03 2010 21:43 throttled wrote: 1 base muta wins every ZvZ I play.
5 Roaches block ramp ----> Muta Tech -----> GG with only one queen.
Don't know why people say you have to speedling/baneling
It's been my experience that blocking your ramp with 3-5 roaches with a crawler or two is just an invitation to have the other zerg roll 10 banelings up your ramp and then unleash 40 lings into your base.
On October 04 2010 01:07 nihoh wrote: Lately i've stopped going Muta past the early game phase of Roach Ling Baneling guesswork. Infestor + roaches + hydras, and vary the numbers of each depending on enemy composition.
Somehow it reminds me of Orc mirror back in Warcraft 3... Mixing it closely between grunt raider and spiritwalker, and adjusting numbers of each. (Orc players will know what I mean)
Yeah that's a pretty good comparison. It's really all about the numbers at some point.
It is weird though, once both players got 2 bases and go for the same mix I really don't know what to build. Pure Hydra/Infestor? Add in Roaches? Go heavy roach infestors? Etc. pp. Fungal growth makes up for an interesting Dynamic. E.g. Hydras better range make them very viable with Infestor play. However Hydra also have much less HP and die quickly to enemy Infestors while Roaches can tank FG very well and regen with burrow.
And then there's fungal growth on the enemies Infestors which requires very, very well Infestor micro because you don't want them all to be caught by a single FG and than being taken out.
It's really, really interesting and dynamic at that stage of the game ;O
1. 8 pool spine rush 2. 8 pool spine rush that they see and hold off.. and are now ahead economically 3. ling/bane wars where 1 bane can make or break you 4. roaches either ehan timing for banes or you lose 5. whoever gets mutas faster if you both survive the banes 6. you try to macro and get killed.. or you try to kill them but don't and now they're ahead economically 7. roach/hydra/infestors only killable by ultras (pretty much) but you're usually dead by then
basically it's all about.. "ok.. you made *blah* so i need to make the same or i lose."
kinda like PvP ... where if one person goes 2gate.. the other pretty much HAS to 2gate (or so my friend said to me yesterday)
On October 03 2010 21:13 smegged wrote: It's hated because it's stupid.
Your creep works against you so the game becomes about all out aggression and a lucky baneling strike one way or the other can end the game.
You cannot play a macro game in zvz as well so the games are always dull. It's just a horrible mirror.
Ditto everything this guy said. ZvZ is stupid because it's the only mirror match where I see 1,800 point Diamond Zergs losing to 600 pt Diamond Zergs. It has way too much 'luck' involved right now. This may change. Hopefully in GSL 2 more than 1 Zerg can survive so we can see some epic ZvZ's and maybe learn from the pros.
Zerg/Silver/~650pts I played a ZvZ on meta last night where my opponent went for a speedling expand (no clue why, as he didn't scout me at all)- while I scouted him on my 7th drone (to avoid cheese). I noticed he was FE'ing so I opted for a quick lair to infestor with roach speed and +1 missile.
I had 3 OL's patting in his main to scout his tech (which never happened, oddly enough), he just went straight speedling. This was probably from a lack of experience or something, but he did make a load of speedlings. He micro'd poorly and I had 5 infestors, so I just fungaled his pack of speedlings twice and let my roaches do that clean up. Then when I moved into his main, he had like 6 spine crawlers and 3 queens. He had blocked his spinecrawlers all in the same spot, so I just kited his queen to the range where my roaches could attack it, but his spines couldn't attack me; then I fungaled the queens in place.
He tapped out as soon as I killed all his queens, and I wouldn't exactly call it an epic game- but it was definitely more interesting than most of the sling/bling or mass roach play you see in the lower brackets.
Going fast roaches will still instalose to speedling/baneling at close positions, so most of the time its just speedling baneling vs speedling baneling. It's fun to watch, but horrible to play - one mismicro and you're done for.
I hated ZvZ until I learned to stop stupid cheese tactics. That being said, 6-7 pool is really annoying to have to face EVERY SINGLE MATCH. A simple answer is to 10 pool. That way you have lings out early enough to hold off any all in BS and you can put pressure on if they don't suck and choose not to 6 pool.
On October 03 2010 23:06 breakingties wrote: literally just been leaving a lot of zvzs cos i just couldnt be arsed playing it. so tedious
hahaha, i almost did that yesterday. they're a huge momentum killer after coming off of 3 zvt wins. just not as enjoyable as a matchup and im generally awful at zvz so its not exactly a fun situation
i think most people would agree that speedling baneling is not that fun to play. besides that i think the mu is great. if the baneling was removed zvz would be like the funniest matchup i think. however zvt would be pretty hard
Because Speedling > Roach > Baneling confuses people.
I find ZvZ to be easier and more enjoyable with each passing game, the match up has evolved a ton, I'm enjoying trying things like Roach/Baneling all in and 1 base muta.
You just have to have good enough micro to survive ling/bling wars.
After that, everything is viable. I personally go Hydra/infestor to counter ling/bling/muta (banelings die in one-shot to fungals... mutas can be killed from outside of attack range by hydras without taking any damage).
Once they switch to ground, I go pure Roach/infestor with just enough hydras to shut down air play. Since all Z units have so little HP, fungal is godly.
because people don't understand the match up and people hate what they don't understand. people hated it in beta when it was pure ling/bling because nobody understood timings well and that timing beat all others. now it doesn't, and the people that still hate the match up are the people who still don't understand the timings.
I think in pro gaming, pure speedlings +1atk into expand will start to become the norm after a while. Simply because sure banelings are great, but with micro speedlings +1atk is way better than banelings. With this build you are just able to get mutas out faster and get more of them than the baneling counterpart. Progamers shouldnt have a problem microing speedlings vs slow banelings imo.
On October 04 2010 02:14 zJayy962 wrote: I think in pro gaming, pure speedlings +1atk into expand will start to become the norm after a while. Simply because sure banelings are great, but with micro speedlings +1atk is way better than banelings. With this build you are just able to get mutas out faster and get more of them than the baneling counterpart. Progamers shouldnt have a problem microing speedlings vs slow banelings imo.
I don't think so. You cannot really micro zerglings well againt a good microing roach/bling player. So against a push you need several Spine Crawlers as well. That + the +1 attack both delay mutas quite a lot.
I don't see why people hate it for not being a macro oriented matchup. Nothing is as fast paced or harsh on mistakes as zvz is, and the other matchups don't even compare in those categories. Personally I like it, it adds another play style.
breakingties wrote: literally just been leaving a lot of zvzs cos i just couldnt be arsed playing it. so tedious
hahaha, i almost did that yesterday. they're a huge momentum killer after coming off of 3 zvt wins. just not as enjoyable as a matchup and im generally awful at zvz so its not exactly a fun situation
lol its always just sighhhhh im just bad at it i guess, something about it just feels wrong
I don't think ZvZ is bad at all. There are currently several different viable playstyles. Once you get into higher level games the ling/bling all-in stuff doesn't work against someone who prepares for it. Roach builds are quite reliable and allow an earlier expansion on most maps. Usually people seem to opt for a passive roach opening into expand > roach/hydra/infestor > Ultra, or an agressive speedling opening into expand and then mutalisks > bling > ultra. Both are very different playstyles, and I see almost every single zerg unit used in this MU on a regular basis (except maybe the brood lord). Hell I even see people make corruptors if their opponent is going mutas.
Ever since they nerfed roach armor this MU has become much more exciting, and I honestly feel it is well designed.
I think alot of people whine and blame it on luck because they don't like dieing due to one mismicro vs a baneling. You have to remember that going lings or ling/bling vs ling/bling is insanely reliant on micro. If you don't like it make roaches and macro hard. Those who are saying you aren't rewarded for macro style play just don't know how to use roaches properly. A good player who is 1 base up on you is going to rape you even if you get those early mutas out or push agressively with 1 base roach.
When compared to SC1, this MU is much more interesting.
On October 04 2010 02:14 zJayy962 wrote: I think in pro gaming, pure speedlings +1atk into expand will start to become the norm after a while. Simply because sure banelings are great, but with micro speedlings +1atk is way better than banelings. With this build you are just able to get mutas out faster and get more of them than the baneling counterpart. Progamers shouldnt have a problem microing speedlings vs slow banelings imo.
Firstly, +1 armour would make far more sense since you'd survive baneling hits with 1 hp. Secondly, i don't care if you have 3/3 speedlings with adrenal glands it takes 5 banelingsto wipe out 90% of them. Thirdly, no way you can get any upgrades out before you die to ling/baneling attacks. If you want to play defensively and go muta you don't need upgrades at all. You can micro slow banelings too, move command into your worker line and no amount of micro can stop that. Going +1 attack won't even give you any more lings since ling/baneling can support 1 hatch 1 queen larvae just since,.
I don't like it because the opponent is so unpredictable. After an attack, you don't know if he's going to build 10 drones or 20 speedlings or expand.
Z has the unique ability to generate a full army almost instantly - in ZvT and ZvP this is balanced because the opponent can force a choke to make any attack useless. But in ZvZ these attacks aren't useless - you have to be ready for them.
Also I'm not good enough at macro to keep up with all the intel I need and still play cleanly - and I'm not good enough at micro to win ling/bling fights.
I rather enjoy the way a large variety of unit comps are appropriate depending on how the game plays out. It's volatile and fast paced at the start which makes constant scouting super critical but then in the mid game it settles down to something I find to be thoroughly enjoyable with lots of different unit comps making a showing.
Perhaps zergs just have lots of pent up aggression that the game mechanics don't allow them to use against toss and terran so when they get up against a zerg they just let it fly.
Sometimes things can get really random with the banelings... like looking away for 1 second to place a spire at your base, and looking back just to see your force explode and losing, or your opponents drones getting stuck on something and you kill them all instantly and win... just not very fun either way to me. Though it's a lot more fun to watch than TvT at least.
On October 04 2010 02:53 Penecks wrote: Sometimes things can get really random with the banelings... like looking away for 1 second to place a spire at your base, and looking back just to see your force explode and losing, or your opponents drones getting stuck on something and you kill them all instantly and win... just not very fun either way to me. Though it's a lot more fun to watch than TvT at least.
That's not random. If you look away and your crap dies that's your fault. That's why overlord positions are so important.
played some custom games on big maps like a python remake, people tend to use banelings less and just get the expo and actually play some cool ZvZ... Hydras are really fun vs each other
ZvZ is easily the worst mirror matchup. I don't know how people can even begin to say otherwise.
- Early pool can force any game on LT or DQ into a coin flip imo. It's incredibly hard to stop a close ground 6/7 pool on those positions, but a far or medium spawn makes the rush incredibly easy to fend off.
- There's a lot of blind play that can be really frustrating, but really as you get better it's easier to handle this.
- banelings/ling is fun, but unreliable. Even small amounts of lag can make a HUGE difference in your ability to control banelings. Anyone who's had a baneling come off their move command and head towards an undesirable target can back this up. Even a 100ms delay can make the difference between your new move command going through and your baneling pointlessly dieing.
- Some damage can be worthless or can cripple an opponent. If you kill a queen early on when vomit is about to come off the hatch that's a huge blow. If you kill one right after they vomit then you've done almost no damage.
- it's the opposite of everything that is zerg. You basically take all of the fundementals and skills you know from the other matchup and throw them out the window. Low economy, high aggression, no creep spreading, it's all different from the other matchups. While this is kind of refreshing it's also just really annoying. Basically it's like playing an entirely different race when you play ZvZ vs ZvP/ZvT.
On October 04 2010 03:10 noD wrote: at least it doesnt last 40-70 minutes like tvt =X
That's worse. 40-60min means the better player has more time to show he's the better player. In ZvZ a single misclick on as little as a single zergling or baneling can instantly cost you the game.
On October 04 2010 03:10 noD wrote: at least it doesnt last 40-70 minutes like tvt =X
That's worse. 40-60min means the better player has more time to show he's the better player. In ZvZ a single misclick on as little as a single zergling or baneling can instantly cost you the game.
No actually that just means we have to play 50min mirror matchups while you only have to play 10-15 min ones
If you try to end a TvT early ( early as in you havent mined out the entire map) against a turteling T (90% of TvT matches is siege/viking turtle), you lose.
I'd rather play ZvZ and get it over with.
It's like riping off a bandaid. Yes doing it fast hurts alot for just a sec, but doing it slowly is much worse! :D
Gold Zerg here. I used to win zvz, when I 8pooled, but nowadays i try to drone to 13 or so, and I'm finding zvz much harder. So, I've started attempting to pool no later than 10 (unless I'm on a map with close air distances for watching pool timing, though even then it seems like I can't get info on their pool until I'm at 14 supply anyways...So, I guess scouting with a drone, even in close olord distance maps, is a necessity in zvz?
In any case, pooling no later than 10 seems to be working better for me than waiting till 14 or 15 as I typically do in vT or vP. I think the problem most zerg have with this is that it's harder to expand early, and micro becomes much more important early-on. I will say that I have gotten into a few long games in ZvZ, with almost the entire map covered in creep, which can get really wild. The best strat for me so far is to go ling/roach/hydra/infestor, with nydus reinforcements (not as the main-entry attack, but after main push for retreating/reinforcing), and maybe olord speed and drop for backup/multiprong attacks. And then later getting ultras while staying up on upgrades, and expanding more than the opponent. Mutas are scary yet a gamble, since they're so expensive early on, yet can quickly turn the tide, allowing for better map control and expo denial, unless the non-muta player is queening, hydraing, and has spore colonies and burrow. I find mutas to work well unless there's too much anti-air, or the opponent out-mutas you, which can be frustrating, so I tend to go ground with some anti-air. and of course, burrow is a must if you're not going air, if for nothing other than burrowing drones until reinforcements arrive from the field/main/wherever to fend mutas off.
I think this matchup is the most difficult and scary, though definitely exciting.
ZvZ should eventually be the most interesting mirror match on the pro level. There will come a point when every one is so good at breaking even with the early baneling play. That it will force longer games.
And ZvZ is really interesting in the mid and late game. Its all about map control and limiting expansions. And there are several effective tech routes that all have their draw backs and benefits.
Platinum zerg here. I cannot win ZvZs. Out of maybe 25 matches I played (another reason I'm so bad, I don't face zergs much) I maybe won 3 or 4 of them. I absolutely hate the matchup. While I have a plan for ZvT (my strongest matchup, my win rate must be around 95% or even higher) and kinda for ZvP, I don't have a plan for ZvZ. I just facepalm when I see that my opponent is Zerg. Today I played 4 times and lost all of them. I also played 5 ZvT s today and I won all of them. I am afraid I might just quit instantly whenever I get matched against a Zerg. I'm that desperate, and that unhappy about this matchup.
Z v Z is a game of deception and counters. It's really important to know when your opponent is droning or teching or massing PvP is probably the worst. early game its usually 4 gate. Late game... Battle of the colossus
As a zerg player. I like to do mass speedlings with banelings. and tech to mutas. But i've tried implementing a new strategy. Rush to roaches and 1 base lair. Get like 2 or 3 overseers and constantly contaminate their hive. It forces them to make another hatchery and then you attack with roaches + infestor... If they go air i usually do hydras + infestors + roaches.
There are no counters to Ultralisks. ._. so lame. Too bad every ZvZ ends up being whoever rushes to Mutalisks first and what the other guy does to respond.
I mass Speedlings into Roaches to stop any Baneling play. Open off with double Queen to block the ramp.
Despite my Aussie lag, I prefer aggressive micro-oriented play. So I love this matchup. I reckon if people didn't give up on it so easily and took the time to try and understand it better, they'd all enjoy a bit of ZvZ too
I hate zvz because most of the time it is either ling/bling or spine crawler/ling rushes. I never liked the baneling as a unit and because of that I always go roach openings against other zerg. A lot of the time the matchup boils down to lucky baneling bombs which I don't consider to be fun at all. That being said I win most of my zvz because roach/hydra/infestor destroys ling/bling/muta (mid level diamond player), but it just isn't fun. I have rarely had zvz games that end up going late-game.
2) It's "luck" based, to a large degree. It's very easy for a much worse zerg player to beat a much better one simply because there's are far too many moving parts in the ling/bling battle to keep track off, and the worse player can accidentally get better explosions. The units are so fast and small, especially on creep, that I don't think anyone will ever be able to truly master ling/bling wars.
3) It's usually impossible to tell what units your opponent is making at many stages of the game. Him making 5 drones or 10 lings require completely different responses, and if you still have slow lords and he is clogging up his ramp it can be difficult to scout his comp.
Question: In high level ZvZ in broodwar, did you essentially have an ovie over your opponents hatch until they got mutas out?
On October 04 2010 04:19 vica wrote: There are no counters to Ultralisks. ._. so lame. Too bad every ZvZ ends up being whoever rushes to Mutalisks first and what the other guy does to respond.
I mass Speedlings into Roaches to stop any Baneling play. Open off with double Queen to block the ramp.
I don't agree with the muta rush thing. I'm never too worried about mutas. if I see my opponent going muta, I usually rejoice, since a few good fungal growths is all you need to virtually seal the win. Good use of small amounts of queens/hydra/transfuse also shuts down muta play in my experience.
baneling/ultra/ling/infestor/queen is a scary, scary combination, however, and usually what I aim for.
On October 04 2010 04:10 Benshin88 wrote: Z v Z is a game of deception and counters. It's really important to know when your opponent is droning or teching or massing PvP is probably the worst. early game its usually 4 gate. Late game... Battle of the colossus
As a zerg player. I like to do mass speedlings with banelings. and tech to mutas. But i've tried implementing a new strategy. Rush to roaches and 1 base lair. Get like 2 or 3 overseers and constantly contaminate their hive. It forces them to make another hatchery and then you attack with roaches + infestor... If they go air i usually do hydras + infestors + roaches.
There's not much deception to it. It's just guessing.
It'd be deception if you had the ability to count units or could scout. ZvZ, by it's very nature as a mirror match, isn't balanced around the overlords being sacrificed like the other matchups. If you and I are both going for the exact same strategy and I sac an overlord I'm way behind. A perfect example is roaches. If we are both on roaches (what usually happens when one player goes roaches) and I see you are making a lair. When the lair finishes the game is pretty much a coin flip. I can sac an overlord to learn you are massing roaches, but then I lose because I'm now behind you since I just spent 100 minerals on saccing an overlord. But if I don't sac an overlord I can't rule out what you are going for unless you pointlessly bring all your roaches to your ramp or in range of a safe overlord. Without saccing I need to guess if you are going to push with massed speed roaches (instant win vs someone grabbing hydralisks or mutas), mutalisks/hydras (instant win vs roaches if the roach player hasn't been massing roaches for a push), or just expand and eco.
Basically I don't think ZvZ will never stabilize into a build or set of builds where you can't just with via some other bo. By comparison if I open say ling->infestor in ZvT there is 0 things the Terran can do to instantly win just via BO as long as I sacc 1 and only 1 overlord while the matchup is balanced around me saccing overlords. There are some things that force me to micro well to not be behind, but it's not like ZvZ where you the game just becomes decided.
TLDR version... I believe ZvZ in its current state will almost always come down to blind build order wins over wins decided by partially informed decision making and unit control.
If you play well, no way can your enemy get 5 roaches to block a ramp in time. Constant pressure from lings -> ling all in is what I've been playing with and it seems to be one of the best strategies. Unless the enemy gets the right amount of lings and defends well, a roach warren will be hard to invest in.
IMO most of it is an R/P/S and it's really annoying big time ex. Hydra or Mutas.
I hate ZvZ because I only win the ones that somehow last a long time when my macro gets in play (I've had some serious ZvZ comebacks). Everything that is important vP or vT is kinda dead in this matchup.
Usually I just bling/sling GOGOOGOG and hope for the baneling to land in the drone line.
On October 04 2010 04:10 Benshin88 wrote: Z v Z is a game of deception and counters. It's really important to know when your opponent is droning or teching or massing PvP is probably the worst. early game its usually 4 gate. Late game... Battle of the colossus
As a zerg player. I like to do mass speedlings with banelings. and tech to mutas. But i've tried implementing a new strategy. Rush to roaches and 1 base lair. Get like 2 or 3 overseers and constantly contaminate their hive. It forces them to make another hatchery and then you attack with roaches + infestor... If they go air i usually do hydras + infestors + roaches.
There's not much deception to it. It's just guessing.
It'd be deception if you had the ability to count units or could scout. ZvZ, by it's very nature as a mirror match, isn't balanced around the overlords being sacrificed like the other matchups. If you and I are both going for the exact same strategy and I sac an overlord I'm way behind. A perfect example is roaches. If we are both on roaches (what usually happens when one player goes roaches) and I see you are making a lair. When the lair finishes the game is pretty much a coin flip. I can sac an overlord to learn you are massing roaches, but then I lose because I'm now behind you since I just spent 100 minerals on saccing an overlord. But if I don't sac an overlord I can't rule out what you are going for unless you pointlessly bring all your roaches to your ramp or in range of a safe overlord. Without saccing I need to guess if you are going to push with massed speed roaches (instant win vs someone grabbing hydralisks or mutas), mutalisks/hydras (instant win vs roaches if the roach player hasn't been massing roaches for a push), or just expand and eco.
Basically I don't think ZvZ will never stabilize into a build or set of builds where you can't just with via some other bo. By comparison if I open say ling->infestor in ZvT there is 0 things the Terran can do to instantly win just via BO as long as I sacc 1 and only 1 overlord while the matchup is balanced around me saccing overlords. There are some things that force me to micro well to not be behind, but it's not like ZvZ where you the game just becomes decided.
TLDR version... I believe ZvZ in its current state will almost always come down to blind build order wins over wins decided by partially informed decision making and unit control.
I disagree vehemently with everything you just said.
Saccing an ol is not much a disadvantage, certainly not enough to get you killed considering defender's advantage.
ZvZ is already pretty stable at high levels. Hopefully we'll get to see more of it in the next GSL.
On October 03 2010 21:28 MorroW wrote: if i got this right ppl massling baneling because whoever make roaches will get expansion up later. as soon as someone make roach it usually turns into macro game
i think the mu is really well designed to be honest, well it would be if we had lan latency.
its a good thing sometimes when a matchup is not too complicated with 10 different bos or unit mixtures, then its more skill and less luck. tvt theres a pretty big luck factor that u cant escape from with any build and thats why im starting to like zvz more
In my experience... sorta.
Say I've gone ling/bling and you go roaches. I'll see the warren early on with scouting lings then my first/second vomit I can spend on drones instead of units which puts me ahead economically and then I can throw down my own warren and just flat out be ahead. This is especially true if I cancel my warren.
The threat of speedlings means you pretty much need to spend that first vomit on roaches or speedling runbys and/or banelings will be a ton of trouble. Meanwhile the ling player is safe because the only thing you have to move out with are roaches and by you have enough to block yoru ramp and move out with them the other player will have roaches. Sure you can throw down ling speed yourself, but then you're still at best in exactly the same spot as the other player.
there's also the risk/problem of lings getting up your ramp before your roaches get out, but usually that's not a big issue if you make lings while your warren is building.
Saccing an ol is not much a disadvantage, certainly not enough to get you killed considering defender's advantage.
it's 100 minerals +1 larva behind. You can make it up elsewhere, but if you haven't really started with aggression you're fighting from 100 minerals behind. At times the loss pays off, but it's really easy in ZvZ to gain little or no benefit from the scouting. I never said it was enough to get you killed, it's just clearly going to set you back. While in the other matchups the information you gain is very valuable, in ZvZ there are often times you'll see him say going roaches and your response is MORE ROACHES in which case, defenders advantage or not, it hurts to throw 100 minerals away.
TLDR version... I believe ZvZ in its current state will almost always come down to blind build order wins over wins decided by partially informed decision making and unit control.
Completely wrong. Theres too much constant interaction for anything to be decided on uninformed decision making. 12pool/gas is a solid opening that can even stop 7pool, and after that its all about game control.
Going fast roaches will still instalose to speedling/baneling at close positions, so most of the time its just speedling baneling vs speedling baneling. It's fun to watch, but horrible to play - one mismicro and you're done for.
Why is this a bad thing? To me, ZvZ has all the elements I <3 out of SC1. Strong strategic options midgame, unified early game to prevent cheesy strategies (beyond sixpool), and very tense action. When I lose ZvT or ZvP, it often feels like I got lucked. A hidden stargate. A techswitch nobody could have seen coming. In ZvZ, outside of sixpool, you can feel like you have complete control of the game, from early zergling pressure, baneling play, to transitioning into a midgame where literally every single unit is viable, but can also be easily predicted.
When I win ZvZ, it always feels like I outplay the opponent, and when I lose, with the exception of sixpools when I'm too lazy to scout, I always feel like I was legit outplayed and GG out gracefully.
TLDR version... I believe ZvZ in its current state will almost always come down to blind build order wins over wins decided by partially informed decision making and unit control.
Completely wrong. Theres too much constant interaction for anything to be decided on uninformed decision making. 12pool/gas is a solid opening that can even stop 7pool, and after that its all about game control.
The early game is the easiest part. 14/13 can handle most things even early pools on most maps.
The problems imo come later one when say you can go from a blocked ramp with roaches to speed roach push, hydra/roach economic play, or mutas and all three require pretty different responses but are difficult to scout if the other player is controlling well.
My ZvZ experiences are the opposite of what you describe. I rarely feel 'cheated' out of a win in ZvT or ZvP. Given currently opinion on balance I do feel it's an uphill battle sometimes, but that's a different thing. Anyways ZvZ is the matchup where I feel like the most random surprise that gets you killed happens. The micro costing you the game is mostly bad because of lag more so than anything else. It's very tense which is good and bad in some respects (stressful, but rewarding), but the lag and how percise you need to be can kinda ruin it.
I hateee it becuase if i dont go ling/bane early i need to rush roach, which is fine, but than I can't expo and macro which is what i actually like, thats why I hate it
The early game is the easiest part. 14/13 can handle most things even early pools on most maps.
The problems imo come later one when say you can go from a blocked ramp with roaches to speed roach push, hydra/roach economic play, or mutas and all three require pretty different responses but are difficult to scout if the other player is controlling well.
If they block there ramp with roaches, the timing of when they do combined with an ability to get an expansion up and previously scouting information usually allows ample information and map control to respond adequately. Usually when they block off going mutalisks while keeping pressure with lings and setting up spinecrawlers is adequate to defend against a roach rush. If they go econ, you should already have a huge advantage from your earlier expo (because they're blocking). If they go muta themselves, continuing going muta should outproduce them.
I'm diamond 1100, so maybe we're coming from separate tiers. Maybe your higher, maybe your lower, idk.
This of course, assumes you were able to stay on even terms with them and maintain map presence if not total control. If they can contain you and get map control, well, you deserve to go to midgame blind. Thats an excellent example of early game advantages concretely transitioning into midgame advantage without outright ending the game or making it unwinnable. Your always going to be one step behind, and you should be able to defend, but eventually there macro is going to overwhelm you, unless you can chip away at there advantage with clever play, another trait highly reminiscent of BW.
I mean, compare this to ZvP or ZvT. When there midgame plays come out, you should have already played aggressively enough that you have a good idea of what they're leaning towards. In ZvP and ZvT, combined with crazy early game pressure and low offensive abilities, your literally going 100% blind into midgame.
At any rate its waaay better then ZvZ in BW, probably the only matchup to improve.
On October 04 2010 06:37 ktimekiller wrote: ZvZ early game isn't about who is actually better, it is who makes a critical mistake FIRST
-_-
You just paraphrased lol.
TvZ isn't about who played better, its about who made the first critical mistake. PvZ isn't about who played better, its about who made the first critical mistake.
In fact those are probably even more accurate statements then yours. If a T goes reapers, it isn't really about how Z can play better, its about Z not making mistakes at all, and T not making any mistakes at all.
This thread seems to suggest that ZvZ is really only hated by players who don't know how to micro. Calling it luck based is the exact opposite of correct. Sorry you can't think and press buttons fast. Welcome to competitive video games.
If you really want to expand early then open ling/baneling and pray your opponent goes roaches. If he doesn't, then sorry, learn to micro. It will make you a better player in the long run.
I can understand Zerg players whining about some matchups, but there is no reason whatsoever for it in the mirror match. I'll just summarize some of the common themes from these responses:
"It's all just random! Zergling/Baneling wars are totally luckbased!" Your enemy is using the exact same tools you are using. If he manages to use his banelings more effectively than you do, he outplayed you. There is zero luck involved. Some people complain about lag making such micro situations random. I have never experienced such lag in SC2, but if you do, all other micro battles will be just as random for you as well.
"If I mass Zergling he has banelings and if I go roach he has too many zerglings and if I block my ramp with roaches he expands and I can't!" Just like Day9 keeps preaching, he can't do all of that at the same time. Scout his front and see what he is up to. If he has a few spines and lings protecting his main, expand and tech to Hydras if you spot a spire. If he is blocking his ramp with roaches, get spinecrawlers and tech to muta. When you see him move out with mass roaches, get more Zerglings and you will be fine. etc. etc. If you choose a stable opening (like 10 pool into banelings), there is no funky surprise he can kill you with, even on close positions.
Also, if you keep losing to early pools and whatnot, check out the replay and replicate what killed you. It's that easy. There is nothing mystical about ZvZ.
It's hated because there are so few ways to play it right now, mostly because ZvZ amongst serious players is so rare. As the game progresses and develops I think [hope] there will be a lot more ZvZ beyond zergling/baneling openings.
But requires considerably larger investment and opportunity cost as does a gatepylonlot or a supply depot wallin, and is available far later. It also considerably limts your ability to throw down an early expansion. Moreover, simply making a wall in reveals a considerable amount of information, while Gatepylonlot and Supply Depot wallins reveal almost nothing.
@fantistic- I think that is the build I can actually manage the most right now.
essentially- roach wall in into one base muta. I don't need blings because roaches actually absorb ALOT of baneling damage- learned this the hard way. (as long as you stay walled off- maybe a spine or 2)
However, Day9 pointed at that there is a timing where one zerg who goes roaches can't really move out of his base because lings can get surrounds. Going roach into muta also means earlier lair which is always strong.
Another note- Sometimes I prefer once I hit lair tech to throw down a blind hydra den even if I don't scout spire. For one- the build time is a whole game minute faster. spire build time- 100 Gs Hydra den- ONLY 40gs (really fast actually)
To anyone who feels like their lair is delayed or late, throw a hydra instead of feeling like needing a spire. Also, since hydras are HALF as gas intensive as mutas, it means its easier supported off one base. Sure, you can produce a good 5 mutas off one base, after that its nye impossible to keep up good muta production without claiming an expo. That gas saved on hydras can also go otherplaces- upgrades, but more importantly- INFESTER.
As the game evolves, I think that's where ZvZ's are going to shift too- being able to field infesters and micro manage them. As to the person who said "oh, have you ever had a game where you got to use all of the infester's abilities?" The answer is no- thats just silly. this means I DON'T need to invest gas into researching NP, thats essentially just another infester. Hydas are complemented by infesters- FG locks lings or mutas down, and they easily fall Zerg is also detection-depraved (kinda weird compared to BW), so burrowing infesters might become more prevalent
I really like ZvZ. I like matchups where the real determining factor is just a pure, beastly micro. It doesn't have the boring turtlefests of TvT or the absurd colossi-wars of PvP. It's crazy micro from start to finish.
And if you survive into the midgame, almost everything is viable. The intensity only increases as more high-risk high-reward units hit the table. All units are used to maximum effectiveness, and all unit combinations are able win if and only if you have the unit control to back it up.
Seriously, ZvZ is an adrenaline rush on crack. How can anybody not find this matchup fun?
All the mirrors in this game are fucking terrible. Really, I think is the one area where Blizzard should have deviated from Brood War and done more to be like modern RTSs.
I hate this matchup on certain maps because certain maps roach is the only way to go and other maps, it's much worse to go roach opening. I honestly prefer BW ZvZ to sc2 ZvZ a lot because the balance and skill required to win ZvZ in BW was a lot more prevalent than I feel it is in SC2. If you got too many drones at the wrong time or tried to get devourers too early/late, etc. SC2 is more forgiving imo. Especially since hydra tech is so much faster than spire so roach expand -> hydra opening stays pretty safe on a lot of maps even against 1base muta play.
On October 03 2010 21:09 skirmisheR wrote: Why does everybody hate ZvZ? Why is it considered the most stupid mirror matchup in rts history? (yes I've heard that one)
Except for the ling/bling war in the start (which can be easily nullified by getting 5 roaches to block your ramp) I can't see the problem with Z mirrors because midgame/T2 can be really awesome. All units can be used, (even corruptors!), and the amount of different unit comps are endless. In ZvT for example there is ling/bling/roach/mutas/infestors while corruptors and hydras isn't used at all, but in ZvZ they all serve a purpose.
So WHY is the Z mirror matchup so hated?
EDIT: You're not showing the enemy your roach warren but the point of roaches is to make the other zerg commit to his zergling/banelings, morphing them and getting a lot of them and then he realizes I've blocked my ramp just in time, so then I'm at an advantage. And no it's not for rushing mutas but for advancing to the midgame where T2 units is needed.
Why does this post exist? Why do some people like some things and some prefer others?
Because that's human nature. Some people like some stuff, some like others. Often there are trends. What is the point in your post?
I mean I have used pure speedling no bane before. It can be doable. The idea is that the bane move much slower than his speedling, so you will end up with more speedlings than him. You will have to move back and flank his speedlings while sending few lings to poke his slower banes. It's really intense :D
ZvZ is a fucking awesome matchup, how can ANYONE hate it? Yeah, sometimes I get 7pooled on closespawn metap or something and lose, but otherwise it's fucking baller. Early-game is the rawest micro war there is in SC2 (whilst macroing of course, which makes good micro harder and good micro+macro even harder), mid-game gets really fun and diverse with infestors and whatnot. On maps like Oasis you just get really wild games =] I love ZvZ, I can't see how anyone wouldn't. Maybe if you're stuck in the beta "oh man it's nothing but slings and blings that's no fun, I'd rather be pumping drones not microing!" mindset it won't be fun, otherwise it owns.
but i guess the reason people hate it is because most people who play zerg are used to the macro defend and hide style of play that zerg has to do in zvt zvp.
so when they play zvz which is incredably micro intensive, where one mistake costs you the game. they just hate it. also i guess since its the rarest matchup played so people haven't worked it all out yet thats another reason people hate it i guess?
I like ZvZ, but the reason I dislike it — which isnt' too prevalent right now but will be in the future — is because it's rock paper scissors at tier 2 (and even other tiers). You don't know if they are going mass roach, roach tech (burrow, tunneling), roach hydra, or mutas.
I'm not sure what I said is completely justifiable right now though, since I think going just plain roaches with speed and overseer scout can handle all those builds pretty well, at which point you can deal with what they are actually getting in time due to the scout.
On October 04 2010 08:35 TyrantPotato wrote: IMO zvz is the best matchup.
but i guess the reason people hate it is because most people who play zerg are used to the macro defend and hide style of play that zerg has to do in zvt zvp.
so when they play zvz which is incredably micro intensive, where one mistake costs you the game. they just hate it. also i guess since its the rarest matchup played so people haven't worked it all out yet thats another reason people hate it i guess?
Yep I think you're right, Zerg players are too used to macro play and ZvZ is decided by micro, as long as your scouting is sound (and don't commit to zling/bling vs roach)
ZvZ is getting a lot better, but where I am, people try to speedling baneling all in too much. I end up going Roaches a lot, and for some reason they keep trying to bust my front with mass speedling and baneling, which obviously isn't the greatest idea. To be honest, I think that FE in ZvZ is actually relatively safe if you play it correctly. Blocking off your ramp with Queens/Roaches, and getting a couple spines up at your expo, or even 1-2 banelings to get rid of their speedlings can keep you safe from a lot of all ins, and leave you way ahead.
ZvZ makes me honestly want to switch race sometimes
It's so un-fun for me because in the early game a little micro mistake may lose you the game, and than mid/late game it seems so rock paper scissory with the unit compositions.
It's definitely the most fun to watch because of how diverse it is, but I hate playing it.
im actually looking for some zerg players that are around 1300-1500 diamond players to practice against for some zvz, Na server. also have some good terrans you could practice against please add me Oldboy 344
i find zvz comes down to who can micro better, one small mistake and one or 2 banelings get in there can make or break a game. I also find that the FE is quite easy to hold off the intial 6-8 lings with a couple lings and a spine crawler and queens. then going into roach. roach i think will become the more used due to its easier to not make a simple error that might cost you the game.
I love ZvZ, I think it is just as rewarding as TvT to the player who thinks creatively and on-the-spot. It's not so much about what BO you go and unit comp you choose, but what you do with it. You have to read your opponents moves ahead of time and anticipate and counter them.
ZvZ is not about memorising BO's and timing pushes etc. You actually need to have a brain and use it.
I play random, and out of all the mirrors, i like zvz the best. maybe its because its cuz i can get away with 13/14s and such, but the mid-late game is pretty sweet.
Lings<Speedlings<Banelings<Roaches<Mutas<Base d +queen/Infestors <HydraRoach<HydraRoachBling<HydraRoachInfestor.
its interesting seeing who can safely get to the later stages of the game the fastest and safest. Another aspect I like is how zergs can maintain the same base count and not have to worry about being economically behind, like in ZvP and ZvT, including BW.
I honestly think that most zergs just don't know how to play zvz right. Its alot different than sc1. Having the most muta's doesn't always win ,which is what i see the main emphasis on.. And hydras hard counter mutas, unlike sc1.
On October 04 2010 10:51 Tomfour wrote: ZvZ makes me honestly want to switch race sometimes
It's so un-fun for me because in the early game a little micro mistake may lose you the game, and than mid/late game it seems so rock paper scissory with the unit compositions.
It's definitely the most fun to watch because of how diverse it is, but I hate playing it.
On October 03 2010 21:09 skirmisheR wrote: Why does everybody hate ZvZ? Why is it considered the most stupid mirror matchup in rts history? (yes I've heard that one)
Except for the ling/bling war in the start (which can be easily nullified by getting 5 roaches to block your ramp) I can't see the problem with Z mirrors because midgame/T2 can be really awesome. All units can be used, (even corruptors!), and the amount of different unit comps are endless. In ZvT for example there is ling/bling/roach/mutas/infestors while corruptors and hydras isn't used at all, but in ZvZ they all serve a purpose.
So WHY is the Z mirror matchup so hated?
EDIT: You're not showing the enemy your roach warren but the point of roaches is to make the other zerg commit to his zergling/banelings, morphing them and getting a lot of them and then he realizes I've blocked my ramp just in time, so then I'm at an advantage. And no it's not for rushing mutas but for advancing to the midgame where T2 units is needed.
Why does this post exist? Why do some people like some things and some prefer others?
Because that's human nature. Some people like some stuff, some like others. Often there are trends. What is the point in your post?
Because he wants to know peoples opinions on why this matchup is less enjoyable for them than others? Why does your post exist?
On October 04 2010 08:34 evanthebouncy wrote: I mean I have used pure speedling no bane before. It can be doable. The idea is that the bane move much slower than his speedling, so you will end up with more speedlings than him. You will have to move back and flank his speedlings while sending few lings to poke his slower banes. It's really intense :D
You have to maintain constant aggression until you transition into something else if you do this. Oddly, this build can't defend against lingbling, but it can attack them. If they are on the offensive, and are making a move towards your mineral line, you really can't do much to stop them. But if you can stay on the aggressive you can make crazy fast transitions into mutas with an expo up.
On October 03 2010 21:28 MorroW wrote: if i got this right ppl massling baneling because whoever make roaches will get expansion up later. as soon as someone make roach it usually turns into macro game
i think the mu is really well designed to be honest, well it would be if we had lan latency.
its a good thing sometimes when a matchup is not too complicated with 10 different bos or unit mixtures, then its more skill and less luck. tvt theres a pretty big luck factor that u cant escape from with any build and thats why im starting to like zvz more
Less luck in ZvZ then TvT ?
If one goes 6 pool, and other goes 13 pool its gg. If one go 10 pool to counter 6 pool, its gg, but if the other guy went 13 pool its gg for the 10 pooler. This is obviously how its on 4 player maps, on two player maps its much less luck depandant cus you will have easy time to scout when your oppoent is pooling.
What you want to do is put down your pool 20/30 sec later then your opponent usually. That way you cannot die to zerglings, and you will be ahead on drones.
ZvZ is an unbelievably boring and stale match up, i usually just go 6 pool or somethin dumb, just to get it over and done with. i find the other mirror matches are far more interesting and actually allow for a good game.
On October 04 2010 11:12 Minzy wrote: ZvZ is an unbelievably boring and stale match up, i usually just go 6 pool or somethin dumb, just to get it over and done with. i find the other mirror matches are far more interesting and actually allow for a good game.
you're one of those players who doesn't understand zvz then, i feel bad every time someone spine pool rushes and fails =/
zvz is amazing. early game micro, midgame battles. i don't agree with the RPS thing, just don't blindly go mutas/hydras...
On October 04 2010 11:12 Minzy wrote: ZvZ is an unbelievably boring and stale match up, i usually just go 6 pool or somethin dumb, just to get it over and done with. i find the other mirror matches are far more interesting and actually allow for a good game.
you're one of those players who doesn't understand zvz then, i feel bad every time someone spine pool rushes and fails =/
zvz is amazing. early game micro, midgame battles. i don't agree with the RPS thing, just don't blindly go mutas/hydras...
ZvZ with ling/bling is good early game micro with midgame battles.
If one of the two players decides to put down a roach warren and blocks their ramp they instantly turn the game into a build order coinflip trash matchup from my experience. Granted it's one where they probably have like a 30-40% chance of winning, but a lot of the time that can boost the weaker zerg's win chance.
I really like z vs z and find it interesting, its a shame I don't find many zergs on ladder to play it more though. It's not all ling/baneling like everyone says. Many people go roach, muta, and infestos(which kick ass in zvz).
On October 04 2010 04:19 vica wrote: There are no counters to Ultralisks. ._. so lame. Too bad every ZvZ ends up being whoever rushes to Mutalisks first and what the other guy does to respond.
I mass Speedlings into Roaches to stop any Baneling play. Open off with double Queen to block the ramp.
I don't agree with the muta rush thing. I'm never too worried about mutas. if I see my opponent going muta, I usually rejoice, since a few good fungal growths is all you need to virtually seal the win. Good use of small amounts of queens/hydra/transfuse also shuts down muta play in my experience.
baneling/ultra/ling/infestor/queen is a scary, scary combination, however, and usually what I aim for.
I'm not worried about it, I'm just saying that the whole game is dictated around who is going Mutalisks and what you do about it. If you think the other guy goes Mutalisks, you can build Hydralisks or Infestors, which are completely rocked by Roaches. If you build Roaches, and he does go Mutalisks, you are basically contained until you get out your Hydralisks or Corruptors. If he decides to mass Mutalisks, you have to be able to match his output while being contained. All of these interactions are a pain to keep track of. You can get Roaches to block off, but he'll mass 60 Speedlings and just overwhelm you if you move anywhere. Too many things can happen for my liking.
It's still fun getting someone to cancel his Spire rush 4 times with Speedlings in his base.
I think there's enough discussion in this thread to conclude that ZvZ can be very dynamic. Early game sling/bling fights should not be game winning. If they are, the loser did not play good enough. Well placed spine crawlers as well as defensive banelings should hinder allin sling/bling builds while teching/expanding.
I used to try the roach wall while teching but my opponent would always go all in with like 20 banelings and 50 speedlings or something while totally destroys my roach wall. Investing in too many roaches hinders tech and you can get a lot more done with less gas if you just get defensive blings.
13 pool 14 gas 17 roach warren 16 queen, holds any standard ling/bling and your eco is better, if they go speedling and expo you make a roach warren and make 8 banelings with about 12 roachs, if they roach you scout what they go and counter... if they muta you go hydra and surround your hydra with raochs to prevent banelings.... ling/bling doesn't work vs any decent player who knows what he's doing, then again most ppl are just robots and copy the same shit every game. btw if you do try that bo, don't do it on steppes of war,i just 6pool on steppes and it wins vs anything but 10 pool. Also, if you do that build try to scout for the 10 pool with fast baneling rush as you will have to micro vs 6 banelings with 2 lings and a queen
I sometimes hate it when I lose to an 8 pool with spines. But otherwise it's very fun to play, my mirco is really really bad so I go for early roaches and I attack while expanding most of the time I lose my roaches, but I kill a spire so that makes it all better, then I go for hydra roach infestor.
6pool, Almost all of my zerg vs zergs turn into the opponent 6pooling and attempting to plant spines in my base. If you can get past the beggining of the game it becomes insanely fun though
Creep mechanics define both of Zerg's other matches whether it be the defensive advantage early game that encourages heavy micro while powering drones or the offensive advantage of aggressive creep spread throughout the key control points on a given map or the defensive bonus of connecting expos or even harassment through expo denial.
All of this disappears with another enemy Zerg on the map, some of it even becomes a huge dissadvantage like early game when there is literally no defensive advantage other than those granted by the map itself. Given the current map pool that normally means early expos are completly indefeasible. Thus early on base pushes and all-ins define the match-up be because there literally are no alternatives presented by the terrain and creep mechanics.
On October 04 2010 04:19 vica wrote: There are no counters to Ultralisks. ._. so lame. Too bad every ZvZ ends up being whoever rushes to Mutalisks first and what the other guy does to respond.
I mass Speedlings into Roaches to stop any Baneling play. Open off with double Queen to block the ramp.
I don't agree with the muta rush thing. I'm never too worried about mutas. if I see my opponent going muta, I usually rejoice, since a few good fungal growths is all you need to virtually seal the win. Good use of small amounts of queens/hydra/transfuse also shuts down muta play in my experience.
baneling/ultra/ling/infestor/queen is a scary, scary combination, however, and usually what I aim for.
I'm not worried about it, I'm just saying that the whole game is dictated around who is going Mutalisks and what you do about it. If you think the other guy goes Mutalisks, you can build Hydralisks or Infestors, which are completely rocked by Roaches. If you build Roaches, and he does go Mutalisks, you are basically contained until you get out your Hydralisks or Corruptors. If he decides to mass Mutalisks, you have to be able to match his output while being contained. All of these interactions are a pain to keep track of. You can get Roaches to block off, but he'll mass 60 Speedlings and just overwhelm you if you move anywhere. Too many things can happen for my liking.
It's still fun getting someone to cancel his Spire rush 4 times with Speedlings in his base.
On October 04 2010 04:19 vica wrote: There are no counters to Ultralisks. ._. so lame. Too bad every ZvZ ends up being whoever rushes to Mutalisks first and what the other guy does to respond.
I mass Speedlings into Roaches to stop any Baneling play. Open off with double Queen to block the ramp.
I don't agree with the muta rush thing. I'm never too worried about mutas. if I see my opponent going muta, I usually rejoice, since a few good fungal growths is all you need to virtually seal the win. Good use of small amounts of queens/hydra/transfuse also shuts down muta play in my experience.
baneling/ultra/ling/infestor/queen is a scary, scary combination, however, and usually what I aim for.
I'm not worried about it, I'm just saying that the whole game is dictated around who is going Mutalisks and what you do about it. If you think the other guy goes Mutalisks, you can build Hydralisks or Infestors, which are completely rocked by Roaches. If you build Roaches, and he does go Mutalisks, you are basically contained until you get out your Hydralisks or Corruptors. If he decides to mass Mutalisks, you have to be able to match his output while being contained. All of these interactions are a pain to keep track of. You can get Roaches to block off, but he'll mass 60 Speedlings and just overwhelm you if you move anywhere. Too many things can happen for my liking.
It's still fun getting someone to cancel his Spire rush 4 times with Speedlings in his base.
ZvZ is bad because there's too much variety?!?!?
Sounds like you want the endless roach v roach beta wars.
With decent sim city and utilizing an earlier than normal scouting drone, speedling/baneling isn't what the matchup is all about, imo. and 6p isn't too terrible to defend against.
I used to hate this matchup... but now find it more entertaining that ZvP. Lots of variety in army comp., the only MU where zerg isn't behind from the get-go , and games can be micro battles or macro wars.
On October 04 2010 11:10 Pekkz wrote: Less luck in ZvZ then TvT ?
If one goes 6 pool, and other goes 13 pool its gg. If one go 10 pool to counter 6 pool, its gg, but if the other guy went 13 pool its gg for the 10 pooler. This is obviously how its on 4 player maps, on two player maps its much less luck depandant cus you will have easy time to scout when your oppoent is pooling.
What you want to do is put down your pool 20/30 sec later then your opponent usually. That way you cannot die to zerglings, and you will be ahead on drones.
13 pool can beat 6, 7, or 8 spine rush when played well by both sides. There is a bit of luck though still, since it's extremely difficult to scout in ZvZ which is critical to countering your opponent.
man I love zvz. I play rdm so whenever I see I'm playing a zerg I pray that I get z as well. Its so much fun. I guess I'm more into the micro intensive battles than macro. There are plenty of mind games you can play as well so its not all micro either.
I've been working on a ZvZ build, I dont have the APM to execute it flawlessly but so far it has been very successful.
I'm trying to smooth it out but so far it's 9 or 10 OV (Depending on how I want to play this game) 12/13 gas, 14 pool and 16 in base hatch. I pull guys off gas when I hit 100 gas and dont put them back on untill atleast the 1. or 2. larva burst. From there I pump out 3 queens addition to mass lings to get map control and if it succeeds I expand right from there. When the expand is up I get 2 more queens so 5 total and it's really overkill against any early air because you have 3 queens with energy for transfusions and while he was teching to air I was massing ground and completely roflstomp them when I fend off the first mutalisks(I'm always harrassing keeping his ground in check)
I can see baneling and roaches could be a problem but that shouldnt stop you from trying this build because the transition is very easy to basicly everything you want.
I might do a post about this build when I have figured out the exact timings and polished the build a little bit. So I need to go work on my gameplay so I can give you an update. I havent tried this against T or P but I will be.
I would love to see a diamond player try this a few times against Z and post me replays.
But yeah ZvZ is pretty fun, I like all matchups except PvP
Thats a 48 minute long ZvZ with every unit used aside from mutalisks. There was some small agression as we teched to infestor. I teched to broodlord after and he went ultralisks.
I like it when people go roach, as they give me adequate mapcontroll to get a natural up and get my roach warren up slightly later. I like it when they go baneling too, as you have to emphasise on your micro skills. These things don't always end up in zergling baneling all the time. Once you get past that early game it actually gets really really fun.
I love ZvZ First you have the mind games of banelings speedlings and there-after you have the most deep game available as a Zerg in sc2.
I love to anticipate counters on my counters etcetera. EVERY unit is very useful and teching "back" is also useful, for example, making banelings with burrow in tier 2,5 to counter his hydra's.
My personal strat which I like (not used that often though) is the "baneling feint" or the "baneling defense" Make a few banelings (nicely burrowed at your choke i.e.) with the sole purpose of defending or acting out a baneling war while going for roaches, infestors, etcetera...
1400 point zerg player goes a shit ton of banelings, I go for roach + tech, mutas, I take air control, upgrade my mutas and deny him any more expansions then his natural
I see a lot of "opinions" on here and not enough facts. Personally there are ways to progress the matchup into the macro game and though + Show Spoiler +
the game I post is more of a mid game game, less of a late game-game - I feel whenever I can turn the game into a macro game I can win in the long run because I love droning up
Regardless work on you're sim city and you can negate baneling/ling completly with a ring around the rosey with your drones. Have fun with it!
Most of the problem I have with ZvZ is the randomness of the early game. I don't know whether I need just 1 practice partner to play against to develop some good builds but everytime I ladder ZvZ I go into it with a build in mind that I want to practice. I then get smashed for one reason or another, I then look back on the replay and say to myself, OK if I scout my opponent doing this, I can tweak my build to not get raped. So I go into the next game with my modified build and then I'll get smashed for some other reason and I just end up getting really frustrated and can't work it out.
I don't know whether I'm being a little too rigid with my early game build but I'm finding it really tough to find a safe opening in ZvZ without being too far behind economically.
Once I get to mid/late game, I start to feel insanely comfortable, its just staying alive up to that point that irks me so much.
If someone can advise me a good way to practice and figure out this matchup I'd love to hear your thoughts.
I usually love ZvZ as long as the other zerg player isn't doing all-ins and I hate how random it is early game. Its fun because its more intense and more focused on micro than macro. Imo this is the matchup where zerg players get to showcase their true skill.
Nice rep Carefoot, I'm really struggling with this 1st gas when playing roaches... Consider morphing a few corruptors, like 2 or 3, they really make an advantage when facing mutas. And so I'm your 124th subscriber! Thanks a lot.
Can you imagine how TvT in brood war would have worked if Boxer did not discover dropship?
It's either BBS or an hour of turtling into mined out map into mass battlecruiser battle at the hour and half mark. Whoever has the most banked minerals and better yamato cloning wins.
We merely need another Boxer in SCII.
Or it would wound up like BW's ZvZ. However, with the inclusion of banelings, SC2 ZvZ seems to have a bit more of a randomness (not good btw) to it.
On October 06 2010 05:42 truckerdaves wrote: 90% of the matches i play ZvZ my opponent goes Blings/mutas. Thats why I hate it.
And you do the same and it becomes an incredibly skill based MU, and with similar skill level players, transitions naturally into midgame, not through the virtue of lack of early game aggression opportunity, but solid, exciting, intense play. No shitty timing pushes with hidden tech.
SC2 ZvZ seems to have a bit more of a randomness (not good btw) to it.
How the fuck are banelings random? By that logic, WC3 was 100% luck, because it required similar micro with worse latency. Its literally 10x less random then ZvZ in BW because while in both games they are heavily based on BOs, in SC2 early game aggression gives you a lot more control over the direction of the game. If you play your early game adequately you should never be surprised by tech.
I actually like it more than PvP.
PvP is aweful. You'd think zealot/sentry/stalker would be micro intensive, but it really isn't enough where micro can overcome a army advantage. Perfect micro=+1 or 2 zealots with flawed micro -_-. (On neutral ground ofc)
Imo ZvZ is kind of what I wished all the MUs were more like, maybe with a tiny bit less emphasis on micro because it isn't wc3. Econ decisions matter a shitton early game but can be lost with a single poor, thoughtless attack. Exciting from the beginning. Every strategy viable, but not random. Unified openings that exclude "cheesy" all ins (except 6pool, even 7pool can be easily countered). Potential for great macro game. Early game gains that are relatively insignficant result in significant advantages that heavily influnece the rest of the game. Enough tools given to the player to break out of early game deficit due to overall superior play.
When you're playing toss or terran, you have to gamble, and the game dynamic is extremely uneven.
It's retarded because the single smallest misstep can cost you the game... even if you were dominating it.
No it can't. It can only cost you the game if you were merely had an advantage. So you lose 12 lings. So what. Unless you were all inning, and those lings did significant damage, you can have another set in no time.
Man did any of you play SC1? Single mistakes did cause losses back then too, with high impact units like lurkers and mines much more prevalent.
In the other MUs, its far too hard to lose when your at an advantage and far too hard to win when your not. Against toss or terran, if they can manage to delay your hatch long enough, you literally cannot come back unless you rely on cheesy all in strategies that catch them unexpected, or they fuck up.
In ZvZ, even a sixpool with 5/6 lost drones and delayed mining can be overcome with perfect baneling micro and ling splits and simply outplaying.
And from a spectator perspective, very little in SC2 can match seeing good b/ling micro on both sides each splitting like crazy trying to snipe blings with individual lings. Its probably one of the few things in the game they replicates the everyday epicness of reavers or good vulture micro, and does it with fantastic design, without resorting to gimping AI or UI.
Most of the problem I have with ZvZ is the randomness of the early game. I don't know whether I need just 1 practice partner to play against to develop some good builds but everytime I ladder ZvZ I go into it with a build in mind that I want to practice. I then get smashed for one reason or another
12pool into blings is solid versus almost anything. Even a seven pool rush can be defended with minimal losses. There are some builds that can shut it down fast, but none that can end the game after shutting it down. A roach wall gives you all the info you need on what to do next when taken in context on how the games been going so far.
I think it's hated because if you don't constantly know what your opponent is doing, you can lose instantly.A recurrent theme I've been experiencing lately is we both get mutas, he gets corruptors, I get hidras, he gets banelings, I get more mutas and so on. I haven't tried infestor hidra but it looks very solid, because no zerg unit except hidras and blords hit ground with more than range 3.
On October 06 2010 07:34 lagbzz wrote: Nice rep Carefoot, I'm really struggling with this 1st gas when playing roaches... Consider morphing a few corruptors, like 2 or 3, they really make an advantage when facing mutas. And so I'm your 124th subscriber! Thanks a lot.
Thanks I'll get some content out once I have a new desk =] (sitting on the floor typing this)
EPT
im just bad at it i guess, something about it just feels wrong
