EPTWhy is ZvZ hated? - Page 9
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Edso
Canada112 Posts
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Vei
United States2845 Posts
On October 04 2010 11:12 Minzy wrote: ZvZ is an unbelievably boring and stale match up, i usually just go 6 pool or somethin dumb, just to get it over and done with. i find the other mirror matches are far more interesting and actually allow for a good game. you're one of those players who doesn't understand zvz then, i feel bad every time someone spine pool rushes and fails =/ zvz is amazing. early game micro, midgame battles. i don't agree with the RPS thing, just don't blindly go mutas/hydras... | ||
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chimthegrim
United States31 Posts
I actually kind of enjoy ZvZ usually because it takes away my ability to have an excuse for losing--which I tend to do any chance I get. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On October 04 2010 11:16 Vei wrote: you're one of those players who doesn't understand zvz then, i feel bad every time someone spine pool rushes and fails =/ zvz is amazing. early game micro, midgame battles. i don't agree with the RPS thing, just don't blindly go mutas/hydras... ZvZ with ling/bling is good early game micro with midgame battles. If one of the two players decides to put down a roach warren and blocks their ramp they instantly turn the game into a build order coinflip trash matchup from my experience. Granted it's one where they probably have like a 30-40% chance of winning, but a lot of the time that can boost the weaker zerg's win chance. | ||
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Fianchetto
United States157 Posts
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
On October 04 2010 04:30 iamJason wrote: I don't agree with the muta rush thing. I'm never too worried about mutas. if I see my opponent going muta, I usually rejoice, since a few good fungal growths is all you need to virtually seal the win. Good use of small amounts of queens/hydra/transfuse also shuts down muta play in my experience. baneling/ultra/ling/infestor/queen is a scary, scary combination, however, and usually what I aim for. I'm not worried about it, I'm just saying that the whole game is dictated around who is going Mutalisks and what you do about it. If you think the other guy goes Mutalisks, you can build Hydralisks or Infestors, which are completely rocked by Roaches. If you build Roaches, and he does go Mutalisks, you are basically contained until you get out your Hydralisks or Corruptors. If he decides to mass Mutalisks, you have to be able to match his output while being contained. All of these interactions are a pain to keep track of. You can get Roaches to block off, but he'll mass 60 Speedlings and just overwhelm you if you move anywhere. Too many things can happen for my liking. It's still fun getting someone to cancel his Spire rush 4 times with Speedlings in his base. | ||
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Coufu
Guam137 Posts
I used to try the roach wall while teching but my opponent would always go all in with like 20 banelings and 50 speedlings or something while totally destroys my roach wall. Investing in too many roaches hinders tech and you can get a lot more done with less gas if you just get defensive blings. | ||
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peachsncream
United States289 Posts
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Seam
United States1093 Posts
"I GOT MUTAS FIRST I WIN!" or "I had one Bling kill all your Zerglings! I win! Even though you had an extra base and 20 more workers!" I usually win, but I still hate it. | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
But otherwise it's very fun to play, my mirco is really really bad so I go for early roaches and I attack while expanding most of the time I lose my roaches, but I kill a spire so that makes it all better, then I go for hydra roach infestor. | ||
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SirMilford
Australia1269 Posts
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tetracycloide
295 Posts
Creep mechanics define both of Zerg's other matches whether it be the defensive advantage early game that encourages heavy micro while powering drones or the offensive advantage of aggressive creep spread throughout the key control points on a given map or the defensive bonus of connecting expos or even harassment through expo denial. All of this disappears with another enemy Zerg on the map, some of it even becomes a huge dissadvantage like early game when there is literally no defensive advantage other than those granted by the map itself. Given the current map pool that normally means early expos are completly indefeasible. Thus early on base pushes and all-ins define the match-up be because there literally are no alternatives presented by the terrain and creep mechanics. | ||
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Pekkz
Norway1505 Posts
On October 04 2010 12:52 vica wrote: I'm not worried about it, I'm just saying that the whole game is dictated around who is going Mutalisks and what you do about it. If you think the other guy goes Mutalisks, you can build Hydralisks or Infestors, which are completely rocked by Roaches. If you build Roaches, and he does go Mutalisks, you are basically contained until you get out your Hydralisks or Corruptors. If he decides to mass Mutalisks, you have to be able to match his output while being contained. All of these interactions are a pain to keep track of. You can get Roaches to block off, but he'll mass 60 Speedlings and just overwhelm you if you move anywhere. Too many things can happen for my liking. It's still fun getting someone to cancel his Spire rush 4 times with Speedlings in his base. Roach doesnt counter hydra/infestor btw. | ||
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
On October 04 2010 12:52 vica wrote: ZvZ is bad because there's too much variety?!?!?I'm not worried about it, I'm just saying that the whole game is dictated around who is going Mutalisks and what you do about it. If you think the other guy goes Mutalisks, you can build Hydralisks or Infestors, which are completely rocked by Roaches. If you build Roaches, and he does go Mutalisks, you are basically contained until you get out your Hydralisks or Corruptors. If he decides to mass Mutalisks, you have to be able to match his output while being contained. All of these interactions are a pain to keep track of. You can get Roaches to block off, but he'll mass 60 Speedlings and just overwhelm you if you move anywhere. Too many things can happen for my liking. It's still fun getting someone to cancel his Spire rush 4 times with Speedlings in his base. Sounds like you want the endless roach v roach beta wars. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
This ZvZ hate is really strange. Do people not like to micro? That's the funnest part of the game IMO. TvT is just a bore with all the turtling, and PvP seems to degenerate quickly into a colossus war. | ||
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Jenslyn87
Denmark527 Posts
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TrickyCat
United States15 Posts
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
 , and games can be micro battles or macro wars. | ||
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SnakeBearMan
Norway3 Posts
One goes Mutas\blings as a core, the other make Hydras\infestors\roach as a core and add units that's needed. And the constant struggle to keep up with your opponents income. Its truly an amazing matchup. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On October 04 2010 11:10 Pekkz wrote: Less luck in ZvZ then TvT ? If one goes 6 pool, and other goes 13 pool its gg. If one go 10 pool to counter 6 pool, its gg, but if the other guy went 13 pool its gg for the 10 pooler. This is obviously how its on 4 player maps, on two player maps its much less luck depandant cus you will have easy time to scout when your oppoent is pooling. What you want to do is put down your pool 20/30 sec later then your opponent usually. That way you cannot die to zerglings, and you will be ahead on drones. 13 pool can beat 6, 7, or 8 spine rush when played well by both sides. There is a bit of luck though still, since it's extremely difficult to scout in ZvZ which is critical to countering your opponent. | ||
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