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On October 04 2010 04:10 Benshin88 wrote:
Z v Z is a game of deception and counters. It's really important to know when your opponent is droning or teching or massing
PvP is probably the worst. early game its usually 4 gate. Late game... Battle of the colossus
As a zerg player. I like to do mass speedlings with banelings. and tech to mutas. But i've tried implementing a new strategy. Rush to roaches and 1 base lair. Get like 2 or 3 overseers and constantly contaminate their hive. It forces them to make another hatchery and then you attack with roaches + infestor... If they go air i usually do hydras + infestors + roaches.
There's not much deception to it. It's just guessing.
It'd be deception if you had the ability to count units or could scout. ZvZ, by it's very nature as a mirror match, isn't balanced around the overlords being sacrificed like the other matchups. If you and I are both going for the exact same strategy and I sac an overlord I'm way behind. A perfect example is roaches. If we are both on roaches (what usually happens when one player goes roaches) and I see you are making a lair. When the lair finishes the game is pretty much a coin flip. I can sac an overlord to learn you are massing roaches, but then I lose because I'm now behind you since I just spent 100 minerals on saccing an overlord. But if I don't sac an overlord I can't rule out what you are going for unless you pointlessly bring all your roaches to your ramp or in range of a safe overlord. Without saccing I need to guess if you are going to push with massed speed roaches (instant win vs someone grabbing hydralisks or mutas), mutalisks/hydras (instant win vs roaches if the roach player hasn't been massing roaches for a push), or just expand and eco.
Basically I don't think ZvZ will never stabilize into a build or set of builds where you can't just with via some other bo. By comparison if I open say ling->infestor in ZvT there is 0 things the Terran can do to instantly win just via BO as long as I sacc 1 and only 1 overlord while the matchup is balanced around me saccing overlords. There are some things that force me to micro well to not be behind, but it's not like ZvZ where you the game just becomes decided.
TLDR version... I believe ZvZ in its current state will almost always come down to blind build order wins over wins decided by partially informed decision making and unit control.
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If you play well, no way can your enemy get 5 roaches to block a ramp in time. Constant pressure from lings -> ling all in is what I've been playing with and it seems to be one of the best strategies. Unless the enemy gets the right amount of lings and defends well, a roach warren will be hard to invest in.
IMO most of it is an R/P/S and it's really annoying big time ex. Hydra or Mutas.
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I hate ZvZ because I only win the ones that somehow last a long time when my macro gets in play (I've had some serious ZvZ comebacks). Everything that is important vP or vT is kinda dead in this matchup.
Usually I just bling/sling GOGOOGOG and hope for the baneling to land in the drone line.
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Probably my favorite match up. Feels good to be, you know, aggressive for once.
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On October 04 2010 04:38 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 04:10 Benshin88 wrote:
Z v Z is a game of deception and counters. It's really important to know when your opponent is droning or teching or massing
PvP is probably the worst. early game its usually 4 gate. Late game... Battle of the colossus
As a zerg player. I like to do mass speedlings with banelings. and tech to mutas. But i've tried implementing a new strategy. Rush to roaches and 1 base lair. Get like 2 or 3 overseers and constantly contaminate their hive. It forces them to make another hatchery and then you attack with roaches + infestor... If they go air i usually do hydras + infestors + roaches. There's not much deception to it. It's just guessing. It'd be deception if you had the ability to count units or could scout. ZvZ, by it's very nature as a mirror match, isn't balanced around the overlords being sacrificed like the other matchups. If you and I are both going for the exact same strategy and I sac an overlord I'm way behind. A perfect example is roaches. If we are both on roaches (what usually happens when one player goes roaches) and I see you are making a lair. When the lair finishes the game is pretty much a coin flip. I can sac an overlord to learn you are massing roaches, but then I lose because I'm now behind you since I just spent 100 minerals on saccing an overlord. But if I don't sac an overlord I can't rule out what you are going for unless you pointlessly bring all your roaches to your ramp or in range of a safe overlord. Without saccing I need to guess if you are going to push with massed speed roaches (instant win vs someone grabbing hydralisks or mutas), mutalisks/hydras (instant win vs roaches if the roach player hasn't been massing roaches for a push), or just expand and eco. Basically I don't think ZvZ will never stabilize into a build or set of builds where you can't just with via some other bo. By comparison if I open say ling->infestor in ZvT there is 0 things the Terran can do to instantly win just via BO as long as I sacc 1 and only 1 overlord while the matchup is balanced around me saccing overlords. There are some things that force me to micro well to not be behind, but it's not like ZvZ where you the game just becomes decided. TLDR version... I believe ZvZ in its current state will almost always come down to blind build order wins over wins decided by partially informed decision making and unit control. I disagree vehemently with everything you just said.
Saccing an ol is not much a disadvantage, certainly not enough to get you killed considering defender's advantage.
ZvZ is already pretty stable at high levels. Hopefully we'll get to see more of it in the next GSL.
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On October 03 2010 21:28 MorroW wrote:
if i got this right ppl massling baneling because whoever make roaches will get expansion up later. as soon as someone make roach it usually turns into macro game
i think the mu is really well designed to be honest, well it would be if we had lan latency.
its a good thing sometimes when a matchup is not too complicated with 10 different bos or unit mixtures, then its more skill and less luck. tvt theres a pretty big luck factor that u cant escape from with any build and thats why im starting to like zvz more
In my experience... sorta.
Say I've gone ling/bling and you go roaches. I'll see the warren early on with scouting lings then my first/second vomit I can spend on drones instead of units which puts me ahead economically and then I can throw down my own warren and just flat out be ahead. This is especially true if I cancel my warren.
The threat of speedlings means you pretty much need to spend that first vomit on roaches or speedling runbys and/or banelings will be a ton of trouble. Meanwhile the ling player is safe because the only thing you have to move out with are roaches and by you have enough to block yoru ramp and move out with them the other player will have roaches. Sure you can throw down ling speed yourself, but then you're still at best in exactly the same spot as the other player.
there's also the risk/problem of lings getting up your ramp before your roaches get out, but usually that's not a big issue if you make lings while your warren is building.
Saccing an ol is not much a disadvantage, certainly not enough to get you killed considering defender's advantage.
it's 100 minerals +1 larva behind. You can make it up elsewhere, but if you haven't really started with aggression you're fighting from 100 minerals behind. At times the loss pays off, but it's really easy in ZvZ to gain little or no benefit from the scouting. I never said it was enough to get you killed, it's just clearly going to set you back. While in the other matchups the information you gain is very valuable, in ZvZ there are often times you'll see him say going roaches and your response is MORE ROACHES in which case, defenders advantage or not, it hurts to throw 100 minerals away.
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TLDR version... I believe ZvZ in its current state will almost always come down to blind build order wins over wins decided by partially informed decision making and unit control.
Completely wrong. Theres too much constant interaction for anything to be decided on uninformed decision making. 12pool/gas is a solid opening that can even stop 7pool, and after that its all about game control.
Going fast roaches will still instalose to speedling/baneling at close positions, so most of the time its just speedling baneling vs speedling baneling. It's fun to watch, but horrible to play - one mismicro and you're done for.
Why is this a bad thing? To me, ZvZ has all the elements I <3 out of SC1. Strong strategic options midgame, unified early game to prevent cheesy strategies (beyond sixpool), and very tense action. When I lose ZvT or ZvP, it often feels like I got lucked. A hidden stargate. A techswitch nobody could have seen coming. In ZvZ, outside of sixpool, you can feel like you have complete control of the game, from early zergling pressure, baneling play, to transitioning into a midgame where literally every single unit is viable, but can also be easily predicted.
When I win ZvZ, it always feels like I outplay the opponent, and when I lose, with the exception of sixpools when I'm too lazy to scout, I always feel like I was legit outplayed and GG out gracefully.
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On October 04 2010 06:10 Half wrote:Show nested quote +TLDR version... I believe ZvZ in its current state will almost always come down to blind build order wins over wins decided by partially informed decision making and unit control. Completely wrong. Theres too much constant interaction for anything to be decided on uninformed decision making. 12pool/gas is a solid opening that can even stop 7pool, and after that its all about game control.
The early game is the easiest part. 14/13 can handle most things even early pools on most maps.
The problems imo come later one when say you can go from a blocked ramp with roaches to speed roach push, hydra/roach economic play, or mutas and all three require pretty different responses but are difficult to scout if the other player is controlling well.
My ZvZ experiences are the opposite of what you describe. I rarely feel 'cheated' out of a win in ZvT or ZvP. Given currently opinion on balance I do feel it's an uphill battle sometimes, but that's a different thing. Anyways ZvZ is the matchup where I feel like the most random surprise that gets you killed happens. The micro costing you the game is mostly bad because of lag more so than anything else. It's very tense which is good and bad in some respects (stressful, but rewarding), but the lag and how percise you need to be can kinda ruin it.
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I hateee it becuase if i dont go ling/bane early i need to rush roach, which is fine, but than I can't expo and macro which is what i actually like, thats why I hate it 
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The early game is the easiest part. 14/13 can handle most things even early pools on most maps.
The problems imo come later one when say you can go from a blocked ramp with roaches to speed roach push, hydra/roach economic play, or mutas and all three require pretty different responses but are difficult to scout if the other player is controlling well.
If they block there ramp with roaches, the timing of when they do combined with an ability to get an expansion up and previously scouting information usually allows ample information and map control to respond adequately. Usually when they block off going mutalisks while keeping pressure with lings and setting up spinecrawlers is adequate to defend against a roach rush. If they go econ, you should already have a huge advantage from your earlier expo (because they're blocking). If they go muta themselves, continuing going muta should outproduce them.
I'm diamond 1100, so maybe we're coming from separate tiers. Maybe your higher, maybe your lower, idk.
This of course, assumes you were able to stay on even terms with them and maintain map presence if not total control. If they can contain you and get map control, well, you deserve to go to midgame blind. Thats an excellent example of early game advantages concretely transitioning into midgame advantage without outright ending the game or making it unwinnable. Your always going to be one step behind, and you should be able to defend, but eventually there macro is going to overwhelm you, unless you can chip away at there advantage with clever play, another trait highly reminiscent of BW.
I mean, compare this to ZvP or ZvT. When there midgame plays come out, you should have already played aggressively enough that you have a good idea of what they're leaning towards. In ZvP and ZvT, combined with crazy early game pressure and low offensive abilities, your literally going 100% blind into midgame.
At any rate its waaay better then ZvZ in BW, probably the only matchup to improve.
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ZvZ early game isn't about who is actually better, it is who makes a critical mistake FIRST
-_-
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On October 04 2010 06:37 ktimekiller wrote:
ZvZ early game isn't about who is actually better, it is who makes a critical mistake FIRST
-_-
You just paraphrased lol.
TvZ isn't about who played better, its about who made the first critical mistake.
PvZ isn't about who played better, its about who made the first critical mistake.
In fact those are probably even more accurate statements then yours. If a T goes reapers, it isn't really about how Z can play better, its about Z not making mistakes at all, and T not making any mistakes at all.
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This thread seems to suggest that ZvZ is really only hated by players who don't know how to micro. Calling it luck based is the exact opposite of correct. Sorry you can't think and press buttons fast. Welcome to competitive video games.
If you really want to expand early then open ling/baneling and pray your opponent goes roaches. If he doesn't, then sorry, learn to micro. It will make you a better player in the long run.
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My zvz is very strong.About 95% winrate. Since im in gold and i shud be in plat/diamond. Lol every1 in gold goes 1 base muta. Its so easy./
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I can understand Zerg players whining about some matchups, but there is no reason whatsoever for it in the mirror match. I'll just summarize some of the common themes from these responses:
"It's all just random! Zergling/Baneling wars are totally luckbased!"
Your enemy is using the exact same tools you are using. If he manages to use his banelings more effectively than you do, he outplayed you. There is zero luck involved. Some people complain about lag making such micro situations random. I have never experienced such lag in SC2, but if you do, all other micro battles will be just as random for you as well.
"If I mass Zergling he has banelings and if I go roach he has too many zerglings and if I block my ramp with roaches he expands and I can't!"
Just like Day9 keeps preaching, he can't do all of that at the same time. Scout his front and see what he is up to. If he has a few spines and lings protecting his main, expand and tech to Hydras if you spot a spire. If he is blocking his ramp with roaches, get spinecrawlers and tech to muta. When you see him move out with mass roaches, get more Zerglings and you will be fine. etc. etc. If you choose a stable opening (like 10 pool into banelings), there is no funky surprise he can kill you with, even on close positions.
Also, if you keep losing to early pools and whatnot, check out the replay and replicate what killed you. It's that easy. There is nothing mystical about ZvZ.
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On October 03 2010 21:18 McFoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2010 21:15 evilm0nkey wrote:
Afaik it's the most fun mirror matchup. Yep, it shows the true aggressive potential of zerg with the lack of them damn wallins ^^
Roach wall-in is popular.
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It's hated because there are so few ways to play it right now, mostly because ZvZ amongst serious players is so rare. As the game progresses and develops I think [hope] there will be a lot more ZvZ beyond zergling/baneling openings.
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Roach wall-in is popular.
But requires considerably larger investment and opportunity cost as does a gatepylonlot or a supply depot wallin, and is available far later. It also considerably limts your ability to throw down an early expansion. Moreover, simply making a wall in reveals a considerable amount of information, while Gatepylonlot and Supply Depot wallins reveal almost nothing.
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@fantistic- I think that is the build I can actually manage the most right now.
essentially- roach wall in into one base muta. I don't need blings because roaches actually absorb ALOT of baneling damage- learned this the hard way. (as long as you stay walled off- maybe a spine or 2)
However, Day9 pointed at that there is a timing where one zerg who goes roaches can't really move out of his base because lings can get surrounds.
Going roach into muta also means earlier lair which is always strong.
Another note- Sometimes I prefer once I hit lair tech to throw down a blind hydra den even if I don't scout spire. For one- the build time is a whole game minute faster.
spire build time- 100 Gs
Hydra den- ONLY 40gs (really fast actually)
To anyone who feels like their lair is delayed or late, throw a hydra instead of feeling like needing a spire. Also, since hydras are HALF as gas intensive as mutas, it means its easier supported off one base. Sure, you can produce a good 5 mutas off one base, after that its nye impossible to keep up good muta production without claiming an expo. That gas saved on hydras can also go otherplaces- upgrades, but more importantly- INFESTER.
As the game evolves, I think that's where ZvZ's are going to shift too- being able to field infesters and micro manage them. As to the person who said "oh, have you ever had a game where you got to use all of the infester's abilities?" The answer is no- thats just silly. this means I DON'T need to invest gas into researching NP, thats essentially just another infester. Hydas are complemented by infesters- FG locks lings or mutas down, and they easily fall
Zerg is also detection-depraved (kinda weird compared to BW), so burrowing infesters might become more prevalent
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I really like ZvZ. I like matchups where the real determining factor is just a pure, beastly micro. It doesn't have the boring turtlefests of TvT or the absurd colossi-wars of PvP. It's crazy micro from start to finish.
And if you survive into the midgame, almost everything is viable. The intensity only increases as more high-risk high-reward units hit the table. All units are used to maximum effectiveness, and all unit combinations are able win if and only if you have the unit control to back it up.
Seriously, ZvZ is an adrenaline rush on crack. How can anybody not find this matchup fun?
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EPT
