EPTPerhaps zergs just have lots of pent up aggression that the game mechanics don't allow them to use against toss and terran so when they get up against a zerg they just let it fly.
Why is ZvZ hated? - Page 6
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Gimpb
293 Posts
Perhaps zergs just have lots of pent up aggression that the game mechanics don't allow them to use against toss and terran so when they get up against a zerg they just let it fly. | ||
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Penecks
United States600 Posts
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SwampZero
Greece350 Posts
-Triple Overseer Larva Denial (TOLD) Kill a dude with it, inform him he got TOLD | ||
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Ndugu
United States1078 Posts
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
On October 04 2010 02:53 Penecks wrote: That's not random. If you look away and your crap dies that's your fault. That's why overlord positions are so important.Sometimes things can get really random with the banelings... like looking away for 1 second to place a spire at your base, and looking back just to see your force explode and losing, or your opponents drones getting stuck on something and you kill them all instantly and win... just not very fun either way to me. Though it's a lot more fun to watch than TvT at least. | ||
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TymerA
Netherlands759 Posts
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noD
2230 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
- Early pool can force any game on LT or DQ into a coin flip imo. It's incredibly hard to stop a close ground 6/7 pool on those positions, but a far or medium spawn makes the rush incredibly easy to fend off. - There's a lot of blind play that can be really frustrating, but really as you get better it's easier to handle this. - banelings/ling is fun, but unreliable. Even small amounts of lag can make a HUGE difference in your ability to control banelings. Anyone who's had a baneling come off their move command and head towards an undesirable target can back this up. Even a 100ms delay can make the difference between your new move command going through and your baneling pointlessly dieing. - Some damage can be worthless or can cripple an opponent. If you kill a queen early on when vomit is about to come off the hatch that's a huge blow. If you kill one right after they vomit then you've done almost no damage. - it's the opposite of everything that is zerg. You basically take all of the fundementals and skills you know from the other matchup and throw them out the window. Low economy, high aggression, no creep spreading, it's all different from the other matchups. While this is kind of refreshing it's also just really annoying. Basically it's like playing an entirely different race when you play ZvZ vs ZvP/ZvT. On October 04 2010 03:10 noD wrote: at least it doesnt last 40-70 minutes like tvt =X That's worse. 40-60min means the better player has more time to show he's the better player. In ZvZ a single misclick on as little as a single zergling or baneling can instantly cost you the game. | ||
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
On October 04 2010 03:12 Logo wrote: That's worse. 40-60min means the better player has more time to show he's the better player. In ZvZ a single misclick on as little as a single zergling or baneling can instantly cost you the game. No actually that just means we have to play 50min mirror matchups while you only have to play 10-15 min ones  If you try to end a TvT early ( early as in you havent mined out the entire map) against a turteling T (90% of TvT matches is siege/viking turtle), you lose. I'd rather play ZvZ and get it over with. It's like riping off a bandaid. Yes doing it fast hurts alot for just a sec, but doing it slowly is much worse! :D Hate mirror matchups | ||
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DuncanIdaho
United States465 Posts
In any case, pooling no later than 10 seems to be working better for me than waiting till 14 or 15 as I typically do in vT or vP. I think the problem most zerg have with this is that it's harder to expand early, and micro becomes much more important early-on. I will say that I have gotten into a few long games in ZvZ, with almost the entire map covered in creep, which can get really wild. The best strat for me so far is to go ling/roach/hydra/infestor, with nydus reinforcements (not as the main-entry attack, but after main push for retreating/reinforcing), and maybe olord speed and drop for backup/multiprong attacks. And then later getting ultras while staying up on upgrades, and expanding more than the opponent. Mutas are scary yet a gamble, since they're so expensive early on, yet can quickly turn the tide, allowing for better map control and expo denial, unless the non-muta player is queening, hydraing, and has spore colonies and burrow. I find mutas to work well unless there's too much anti-air, or the opponent out-mutas you, which can be frustrating, so I tend to go ground with some anti-air. and of course, burrow is a must if you're not going air, if for nothing other than burrowing drones until reinforcements arrive from the field/main/wherever to fend mutas off. I think this matchup is the most difficult and scary, though definitely exciting. | ||
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leeznon
United States255 Posts
So much fun, and a lot of strats. | ||
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Cerecyte
United States15 Posts
And ZvZ is really interesting in the mid and late game. Its all about map control and limiting expansions. And there are several effective tech routes that all have their draw backs and benefits. Muta Roach, Hydra Infester. Roach Hydra. | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
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Benshin88
United States183 Posts
PvP is probably the worst. early game its usually 4 gate. Late game... Battle of the colossus As a zerg player. I like to do mass speedlings with banelings. and tech to mutas. But i've tried implementing a new strategy. Rush to roaches and 1 base lair. Get like 2 or 3 overseers and constantly contaminate their hive. It forces them to make another hatchery and then you attack with roaches + infestor... If they go air i usually do hydras + infestors + roaches. | ||
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
I mass Speedlings into Roaches to stop any Baneling play. Open off with double Queen to block the ramp. | ||
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iamJason
Australia25 Posts
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DJDemon
United States39 Posts
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EoR
Ireland127 Posts
1) Many openers are just rock/paper/scissors 2) It's "luck" based, to a large degree. It's very easy for a much worse zerg player to beat a much better one simply because there's are far too many moving parts in the ling/bling battle to keep track off, and the worse player can accidentally get better explosions. The units are so fast and small, especially on creep, that I don't think anyone will ever be able to truly master ling/bling wars. 3) It's usually impossible to tell what units your opponent is making at many stages of the game. Him making 5 drones or 10 lings require completely different responses, and if you still have slow lords and he is clogging up his ramp it can be difficult to scout his comp. Question: In high level ZvZ in broodwar, did you essentially have an ovie over your opponents hatch until they got mutas out? | ||
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iamJason
Australia25 Posts
On October 04 2010 04:19 vica wrote: There are no counters to Ultralisks. ._. so lame. Too bad every ZvZ ends up being whoever rushes to Mutalisks first and what the other guy does to respond. I mass Speedlings into Roaches to stop any Baneling play. Open off with double Queen to block the ramp. I don't agree with the muta rush thing. I'm never too worried about mutas. if I see my opponent going muta, I usually rejoice, since a few good fungal growths is all you need to virtually seal the win. Good use of small amounts of queens/hydra/transfuse also shuts down muta play in my experience. baneling/ultra/ling/infestor/queen is a scary, scary combination, however, and usually what I aim for. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
The matchup is very dynamic, almost any unit you want to use, is viable. You just need to formulate the proper strat. | ||
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