Why is ZvZ hated? - Page 2

throttled

United States382 Posts

October 03 2010 12:43 GMT

#21

1 base muta wins every ZvZ I play.

5 Roaches block ramp ----> Muta Tech -----> GG with only one queen.

Don't know why people say you have to speedling/baneling

Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo

Germany2959 Posts

October 03 2010 12:44 GMT

#22

Jesus always this pointless assumption threads.

Few Zerg Players dislike ZvZ and that matchup is great.

There are so many different strategies it's just fun. And as someone else said, finally no fucking wall-off ;P

So, OP, why do you make up this assumption?

Zintis

41 Posts

October 03 2010 12:44 GMT

#23

I would say more of the same responses; ZvZ is a very interesting matchup since all the units can be used. Ling/bling is simply the most common and easiest opener; it provides some quick and easy wins so alot of players stick with it. Ever since I was lvl'ing up through platinum (oh so long ago) I tended towards macro-oriented play. There is definitely a couple minute window where you can put down an expo (instead of gas/ling speed) and set up a small simcity to make ling/bling play more or less useless. At that point either the ling/bling player gives up his allin and drops a hatch, or he continues to try and take down your defenses. Either way they will fall behind you in econ and you can both transition to midgame.

gaizka

United States991 Posts

October 03 2010 12:45 GMT

#24

I love ZvZ, I feel that zergs can do a lot of stuff in the mirror match. If blings are involved it is really tense but once you start to get to lair mutas, roaches, hydras, infestors, everything is not only fun, but doable.

Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo

Germany2959 Posts

October 03 2010 12:47 GMT

#25

On October 03 2010 21:43 Slayer91 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yeah this is about right. Roaches are terrible against lings early game and are a lot less useful except for not dying to banelings, so its really a sign that you're scared of ling/baneling play.

No Roaches are okay against Lings. 6 Roaches + 2 Banelings will rape 400 Lings. And so will 30 Roaches.

Unless you tech switch you're never going to win Speedling/Baneling against a good Roach/Bling player later on.

Sanguinarius

United States3427 Posts

October 03 2010 12:50 GMT

#26

you cant transition to anything.

smegged

Australia213 Posts

October 03 2010 12:56 GMT

#27

If all of the maps in the game weren't totally awful I might agree that this matchup has some potential. But since I can't spawn a new batch of blings before his slings get into my main on all of the current maps, this matchup is terrible.

Also, some of us are playing with ~200 ms lag because bloody blizzard didn't give us lan play. At that latency this matchup really becomes a crapshot.

theSkareqro

Singapore102 Posts

October 03 2010 12:59 GMT

#28

ZvZ is very intense and it is so hard to transition from the zling-bling compostion.
If you did, you have to worry if the opponent used the 300 for zerglings which could cost you the game. But it is a matchup where any kind of unit is great and the first person to make ultralisks, wins.

cocosoft

Sweden1068 Posts

October 03 2010 13:05 GMT

#29

On October 03 2010 21:19 413X wrote:
I don't know why.. I always thought ZvZ was one of the funniest mirror games due to the intense micro battle with banelings, and the "living on the edge" of teching faster than you really should and the amount of variation that you accually can go. Stick with ling/bane, go roach? go muta or hydra? take the expo? so and so...

My hate object in mirror games is now PvP. That is soo one sided, it's gateway units that transends into robotics, and it usually sticks in that way. In comparison, PvP is definitely least exiting playing..

Yes I was thinking a bit about infestor too in this matchup, it should crunch everything backed up with an unit like hydra.

x89

United Kingdom276 Posts

October 03 2010 13:13 GMT

#30

I agree with everyone that thinks it's the best match-up.
It sure gives me the fear when playing but it's really nice to have a game where the opponent is not walling off and playing defensively.

Geo.Rion

7377 Posts

October 03 2010 13:15 GMT

#31

zvz is my favorite matchup, i m planning on writing a huge guide featuring ~10 openings

scaeb

Finland11 Posts

October 03 2010 13:24 GMT

#32

Zerg players are used to playing macro intensive games and this is the setup in which they have to react extremely fast to an advancing baneling army, which can potentially end the whole game in seconds. this doesn't happen in any other match ups, imo. also the fact is, micro plays the biggest role in this match-up.

Coufu

Guam137 Posts

October 03 2010 13:25 GMT

#33

I love ZvZ as well. By far my favorite matchup. I do early baneling nest as they scout, but I use my 2nd 100 gas on Lair (first 100 gas on ling speed) before starting to do banelings. Many people overuse their early game gas for banelings or roaches and have a hard time teching up.

It makes them think they need to get banelings and wastes their gas while I tech to lair first for mutas. After that, I do very limited baneling play to try to take out as many lings/drones as possible (and also to make them waste gas).

The only ZvZ strat I hate is 9 pool proxy spine crawler. I have a very hard time dealing with that.

If both players have equal control with lings and banelings, the game WILL go into mid-game 2-base play which I find to be very enjoyable.

cocosoft

Sweden1068 Posts

October 03 2010 13:27 GMT

#34

On October 03 2010 21:47 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:

Show nested quote +

No Roaches are okay against Lings. 6 Roaches + 2 Banelings will rape 400 Lings. And so will 30 Roaches.

Stop trolling.

DarKFoRcE

Germany1215 Posts

October 03 2010 13:29 GMT

#35

I think ZvZ is alot more complex than most people think. Its just that Roachbuilds usually play blind for a long time, which makes it harder to play. But if you find good timings for Pushes it might be superior to ling -> muta builds.

Eleclight

Finland70 Posts

October 03 2010 13:39 GMT

#36

It's too fragile. Small mistakes are huge as hell in this matchup. And it's either rock-paper-scissors or baneling micro wars.

sob3k

United States7572 Posts

October 03 2010 13:41 GMT

#37

Going roach in SC2 ZvZ is like going hydra in BW ZvZ, yes, you can not die immediately, but you give up all of your map control and scouting information.

In short, its bad.

mangoloid

100 Posts

October 03 2010 13:42 GMT

#38

I don't see many zvzs, but watching them in the beta and early release, it made sense that people hated them (for reasons already listed in the thread). But of the few I've been catching recently, I think zvz is getting more interesting. It seems to me a mostly unexplored match-up, probably because there are just not that many high-level zvzs, but there is a lot of potential and I think it will evolve into something really interesting.

I'm no expert on this subject tho. But I am looking forward to the zvz metagame evolving.

Slayer91

Ireland23335 Posts

October 03 2010 13:43 GMT

#39

On October 03 2010 22:27 cocosoft wrote:

Show nested quote +

Stop trolling.

Roach baneling does beat pure ling solidly, but that requires both a baneling nest and a roach warren, and a lot of gas. The problem with this is your attack is so slow because of speedliing backstabs and expo spinecrawler into roach or spinecrawler into muta both beat it solidly.
Not totally sure if you can open roach baneling fast enough to deny him an expo, or transition into infestors and queens fast enough to deal with a muta, its something I want to test as well.

bokchoi

Korea (South)9498 Posts

October 03 2010 13:45 GMT

#40

I've had some crazy ZvZs, but for the most part its usually just a Ling (Bane + Zerg) War, and whoever gets lucky wins. I think thats the biggest problem: a lot of the time it isn't so much skill as it is luck. One good/bad baneling is game-changing. There's a lot of very effective all-in play and overall stupid playstyles in ZvZ. Also, I actually LOVE it when someone goes Roach in ZvZ because I've never lost to someone who roached.

EDIT: TBH, I feel like all the mirror match-ups are pretty stupid. PvP not so much anymore since warp-gate all-ins aren't as effective as they were.

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