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On September 13 2010 01:03 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 00:05 HalfAmazing wrote:
Balance only affects players. Day[9] is a caster. He really doesn't care, as long as games are interesting and entertaining. lol... he wants a balanced game just as much as the players i think. whats the fun in commentating if u have to take imbalance into consideration each time a race wins over another rather than giving it to the players day9 is awesome and i think i have to absolutely agree with his answers. wc3 tft was alot less balanced than sc1 so by that u could draw the conclusion that sc2 wont be very balanced at all but i hope thats not gonna be the case bringing in new units is not only gonna make the game more interesting and fun, it also has great potential to fix some problems just like he says personally i think the game is lacking more of enjoyment factor than balance tho. thats why im alot more excited for the expansions with new cool stuff rather than these little stat changes
there you go folks - a progamer agreeing with Day9, now stop talking shit about his opinion because he hasn't won any tournament.
On September 13 2010 02:27 kidijs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2010 00:05 HalfAmazing wrote:
Balance only affects players. Day[9] is a caster. He really doesn't care, as long as games are interesting and entertaining. OK THIS ISN'T FUNNY BUT YOUR POST MADE ME THINK OF SOMETHING LIKE THIS: ![[image loading]](http://imageshack.dk/imagesfree/e5W12433.png)
wat
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Oh I know !
I've seen Sen wreck good terrans with only zerglings, how is that underpowered.
Maybe the problem isn't that terran is OP, but rather that most zerg are QQ
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Day[9] > all.
The best three players in the world (right now) are Tester,Cool and Idra.
2 Zergs and 1 Protoss.
Get it?
Just because 1.000.000 Noobs are whining, doesn't mean the game is imbalanced.
As long as two top players with even skill are even in odds, the game is fine.
(Just to clarify: I'm talkin about actual pros. Not some wanna-be diamand campers or wanna-be pros)
As Day9 said...
Most of the people blame the game instead of themselves for losing.
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On September 13 2010 02:39 Iatrik wrote:
Day[9] > all.
The best three players in the world (right now) are Tester,Cool and Idra.
2 Zergs and 1 Protoss.
Get it?
Just because 1.000.000 Noobs are whining, doesn't mean the game is imbalanced.
As long as two top players with even skill are even in odds, the game is fine.
Firstly, that's your opinion of the best players in the world. Secondly, just 'cos the best players are not terran, does not mean there are not issues with terran/zerg/protoss.
Anyway, that interview was AWESOME.
"I answered the shit out of that question."
^^
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On September 12 2010 18:08 Vei wrote:
day9 needs to stop thinking tvz is balanced. it's a fucking fact of numbers, the # of openers T has thanks to their unit diversity vs the # of routes zerg has is simply retarded. it's something like 9 vs 14 combat units.
Watch the interview again.
He doesn't say he doesn't agree with terran being OP he says he thinks it is too early to make that call.
For good reasons. "OMG mech is imba I can't beat it" "magic box your mutas it will work better for you"
Little things like that can change the game significantly. Also when asked if blizzard will need to make changes to the game he answers yes. You have to allow time for a game to develop. This way you can see what players are going to figure out how to beat without balance changes what they actually need a change in order to beat.
I will give you that t have more openers.
More combat units too by 5 B*** S***.
Lets do some counting shall we and I am going to count terran and zerg units in a way so I can achieve the numbers you got.
Banshee, BC, ghost, hellion, Marauder, marine, medivac, mule, raven, reaper, scv, tank, thor, viking
This is 14
now for zerg
Corruptor, Blord, hydra, infestor, muta, roach, ultralisk, zling, bling
This is 9
Units missing from this list drone, queen, overlord, overseer.
*whine moan* "But those aren't combat units" are you blind? are you dumb look at the terran list and tell me all of those are combat units. The mule the scv really? The medivac? Yes it fufills an alternative purpose of healing infantry while they are in "combat" but what else does it do? It ferries units from one place to another. Does the overlord not do this as well? "But the overlord requires a research before it can transport" Would you like your zerg transports to start consuming supply? I didn't think so.
The raven is on that list then why isn't the overseer? Are both of these units not both mobile detectors? "but the raven can actually attack with turrets and seeker missile and has a spell that is usable during battle." The overseer has the ability to harass too and it is the fastest quick to get air unit. (while that I can see debate over) Once a zerg achieves lair tech they can hide tech just as easily as any one else. A scan can miss stuff like this that overseer will make all the way across the base almost guaranteed. Even if it misses a key building you will at least see the enemies composition.
Starcraft is about 3 races with 3 unique playstyles please stop comparing stuff like that especially with incorrect information.
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On September 12 2010 16:43 Sfydjklm wrote:
how can zergs start winning once they figure out how to open safely if zerg 200/200 is inferior to every other race by a large margin?
That logic actually brings a lot more concern than relief because once protoss/terran figure out good macro builds with harrassment options the imbalances will manifest themselves even worse.
And also wc3 is a horrible example of blizzard knowing how to balance a game;(
You don't win army vs. army but if you're maxed, and you actually macro and larvae inject consistently then you can re-create you'r entire army in a matter of hatch time for you'r units. I play Zerg so I am not biased. 
And people complaining about the amount of units Terran has versus Zerg need to realize that almost every Zerg unit is useful all game while Terran units are not.
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I have thoughts regarding that too, which are probably obvious to you too but you ignore them, however if that is the case answer my question. How were zerg nerfs warranted but terran nerfs arent.
It was fairly balanced in the beta before zerg got nerfed to shit with only Dimaga soundly dominating and most protoss terran taking the morrow approach of "imma macro like a madman for 2k games, screw harassing zerg"
Meh.
Because making 160 3/3 roaches in all matchups made for an incredibly retarded race.
Balance only affects players. Day[9] is a caster. He really doesn't care, as long as games are interesting and entertaining.
Are you kidding me?
And also wc3 is a horrible example of blizzard knowing how to balance a game;(
And you know how they did that? Make sweeping balances changes in the initial few years of the game in response to player outcry.
So who do i listen to... Day[9].. hasn't won anything in sc2 really, and supposedly barely plays at all, OR players who were better than him in sc1 and are far better than him in sc2 with more knowledge. I like day9 in sc1 because he had credibility and experience to back up whatever you said. In sc2 he is just some sort of master of extrapolation with no evidence what so ever. IdrA gives solid reasoning for all his points and his predictions in every field have super accurate results. Not only that but many top level players including some terrans agree that there is imbalance. I guess I am just too demanding of people who make pretty ballsy claims when there arguement is ' We are going to see this happen then this happen and then this will happen '
Oh lawl. Seriously you zerg are an embarrassment to zerg. Go switch to Terran, cuz zerg is so UP :/.
Not only that but many top level players including some terrans agree that there is imbalance.
The current top level opinion is that PvZ is a more problematic matchup then TvZ.
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The problem with whiners who call imbalance so vehemently seems to be that they won't try to come up with new BOs to counter T. All they do is cry.
Day9's trying to be the better man here and come up with new and interesting ways to play the game, sidestepping the "imbalance" issue. That is the mark of a good gamer. He's going with the flow of the game, not crying for the developers to change things to his liking.
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I think the problem is hiding tech as zerg isn't nearly as powerful as hiding tech as terran.
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The problem with whiners who call imbalance so vehemently seems to be that they won't try to come up with new BOs to counter T. All they do is cry.
So what other BO's do you suppose? Most of the problems zerg face are in the early game, and Zerg's options are very limited. You're forced to expand fairly early and make drones, if you don't, you get outmacroed, if you power, you're super vulnerable to "all-ins" and harasses, as well as fast VR's and banshees. You can't scout anything because ovies are slow as hell, and Terran can just fake his build using the block.
Don't you think thye've tried other things? One base play is suicidial, so all you have to work with is FE. The only variation in the zerg BO is making more queens or teching roaches. Roaches slow econ and get countered past T1, the speed upgrade doesn't come til t2, making them useless off creep. queens are only good for AA and even then they suck. lings are not as cost effective as other units and they waste larva. spines are good but get raped by reapers and take FOREVER to build.
Zerg has no other BO's. You'll probably just say LOL JUST BLING BUST/FAST HYDRA/BURROWED ROACHES/ OV SAC LOL, like evry other newb on TL. These are not viable options, some of them are just plain gimpy. Fact is, T can play gimpy, screw up completely, and still come out strong, while Z can play perfectly and still have an uphill battle.
Only reason idra is winning is because half the T's ive seen arent even that good, just your average diamond terrans.
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On September 12 2010 20:37 Wolfpox wrote:
Nah, the game is new, it's just stupid to pretend that it's balanced. Do I claim to have all the answers for that? No, and not even Blizzard does.
I realize that Day[9] is trying to be politically correct by avoiding questions of balance, and is doing the "good gamer" thing of pretending like a game is balanced in order to work on strategies (since there is no point is thinking of imbalance when working on strategies) but that doesn't mean he's right if he says its too early to tell, etc.
Oh and here's some more good steps:
Step 1: Watch everything Day[9] says
Step 2: Worship his every word as sacred truth
Step 3: Repeat what he says like an unthinking robot on the forums
Step 4: Shit all over anything that doesn't regurgitate that one guy's opinion
The attitude of Day[9], and his huge pride in trying to pretend like that game doesn't need balance fixes, is what annoys me. "BOOM I ANSWERD TEH SHI OUT OF THAT QUESTION". No you didn't, you just sidestepped it and gave a formulaic non-answer. The attitude implies that patches, balances and expansions are just ways to "tune" or "improve" it, not actually fix something that's wrong. What magic wand was waved that suddenly turned the game from totally zany beta phase, to unquestionable perfect balance? Nothing. It's perfectly valid and fair to raise balance concerns UNLESS you want to discuss strategy... which is what Day[9] is exclusively doing, besides shoutcasting some stuff. So it's fine for him to ignore balance in his little dailies, but it's absurd to not even acknowledge it otherwise
Watch the interview again and try to listen this time. Where does he say the game is balanced? Let me answer that for you, nowhere. He says as far as balance is concerned that it is probably to early to tell. And that probably protoss will be seen as too strong here in the near future. He didn't say they will be OP in the future but that the community will see them that way.
Omg I lost to 5 rax reaper that strat is so imbal blizzard do something so I can win again. Blizzard: Ok we are now going to double the build time of the reaper (yes I know this is an extreme example) Now that will help zerg with 5 rax reaper. But in 3 months some genius zerg player figures a way to counter the previous timeing of the 5 rax reaper after said change occurs will make the strat completely null and void.
Reaper build time is being increased by 5 sec in this next patch will this make a significant impact on 5 rax reaper with the current strats being used? Hell no. But it will give the zerg at least 15 more sec to work with to try and find something that does work.
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just out of curiosity... are there any old links to pro starcraft1 games? not bw lol
would be fun to watch without bw units haha
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Thanks for the interview. Gogo Sean!
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On September 13 2010 04:04 Pedo.Bear wrote:
just out of curiosity... are there any old links to pro starcraft1 games? not bw lol
would be fun to watch without bw units haha
Considering BW was released like 6 months after Starcraft, probably not. Their balance patch was an expansion. When you consider SC1 release maps and unit discrepancies Protoss and especially Terran got railed so hard.
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On September 12 2010 16:43 Sfydjklm wrote:
how can zergs start winning once they figure out how to open safely if zerg 200/200 is inferior to every other race by a large margin?
That logic actually brings a lot more concern than relief because once protoss/terran figure out good macro builds with harrassment options the imbalances will manifest themselves even worse.
And also wc3 is a horrible example of blizzard knowing how to balance a game;(
Good thing zerg has a unique ability to near instantly replenish their entire army due to the fact they can stockpile a whooping 19 larva per hatchery while it would be odd to see 19 production facilities from T/P. In other words when both races are maxed zerg is still producing.
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On September 12 2010 19:31 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 19:27 Snippa- wrote:On September 12 2010 16:43 Sfydjklm wrote:
how can zergs start winning once they figure out how to open safely if zerg 200/200 is inferior to every other race by a large margin?
Let me put it this way... As a Zerg player, if I hit 200/200, I win. There is absolutely no question about it. If it gets to that point in the game, there is no doubt that I will win the game. If there are Zerg players hitting 200/200 and not winning, then they're building the wrong units and/or not getting the proper upgrades. 200/200 for Zerg is late game fyi. I will personally never have 200 supply worth of overlords without having gotten to the point where I COULD build Ultralisks and Broodlords. I would also VERY likely have at least 2 expansions by that time, possibly 3 or 4. (Not that I would be mining from every base, likely only 3 bases). So assuming my first mix of units at 200/200 doesn't work, I could easily hit 200/200 again very quickly with a different mix. At that point in the game I could adapt far quicker to what any Terran or Protoss player is doing than they could adapt to what I'm doing. Will never be able to win a game again. Seriously, getting to 200/200 while mining of two bases and calling that good? Had this been BW or "SC2 from 3 years in the future" having two mining bases at the point where you are 200/200 would mean that you have a bad economy.
You obviously did not read my post correctly. I stated at the very LEAST 2 EXPANSIONS, you're ignoring my main base which IF I only have 2 expansions may still be mining minerals even though it would be very close to being mined out. It would be more likely that I would have 3 expansions. I never said I was only mining from 2 places.
Edit: fixed the quote.
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DAY9
ANSWERING THE SHIT OUT OF THOSE QUESTIONS
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It's interesting to see how this has become an analysis of Day9 rather than the interview. I for one find Day9 to be not only funny and entertaining but he does have a good wealth of knowledge. He isn't the best source for high level information but if you are below 1k diamond there are many things to learn from him and how to change your thinking in game. You can say he doesn't play much, repeats, is wrong, or extrapolates which are true but he used to be really good and a lot of skills/ideas transfer.
I mean compare him to Tasteless, HD, Husky, or any other caster and Day9 is the best because he really knows what he is talking about, loves the game, and is funny.
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On September 13 2010 02:30 DarkspearTribe wrote:
wat
Well priests are casters amirite?
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i agree with what he said about the expansions. blizz has heart of the swarm and legacy of the void to fix this game up. thats 2 or 3 years for blizz to get this game right. if the game is not fixed by the time legacy of the void comes out then everyone can quit SC2 because it never will be fixed.
but i do have to dissagree with what he said about protoss being the strongest... who the hell is saying toss is stronger then terran right now? if any good terran knows how to incorporate ghosts into there army mix against toss then there should be no way in hell those words should be uttered out of anyones mouth. not even day9s.
toss stronger then terrans indeed. that was a nice troll there day9 lol.
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EPT
