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On September 14 2010 07:47 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 07:45 ltortoise wrote:On September 14 2010 07:43 Half wrote:
Hai guys, instead of comparing Ghosts versus HTs which is entirely futile because certain people can't get past there victimization complexes, lets pretend what would happen if Ghosts didn't exist.
HTs get storm.
Bio dies.
The end. ...What? I don't generally use ghosts in TvP, even when Templars are in play, because I don't feel that ghosts are an effective counter at all... It's way too reactive, since the toss chooses when and where to engage with templar, and almost always will get those key storms off. I counter storm just by having lots of stuff  Why wouldn't you invest 150/150 to possibly neutralize his entire Tier 3 portion of his army? I mean, I usually skip ghosts early/mid game too, it isn't nearly effective enough against normal units to warrant the wierd tech path and cost, but by lategame, its almost a "why not" unit...
Even off 2 base, 150 gas is a fucking metric shit ton of gas. I could be spending that gas on more +attack/armor upgrades, more medivacs, or start adding tanks, get the pre-igniter upgrade....
All of which are, in my personal opinion, far more multi-purpose and guaranteed to pull their weight. A ghost is not. I cast it's EMP, does the Protoss retreat? Do I hit the Templars?
It's a gamble, and usually a gamble on how bad the Protoss is. All the other uses of gas I mentioned are not a gamble, and are consistently helpful every single time. If the Protoss is worth a damn, they can easily force a situation where each templar costs an entire EMP to neutralize, and I don't consider that worth it, since templars have a dual purpose (archon morph) and ghosts do not, except as some dps to chargelots I suppose.
EMP'ing a large chunk of their army? Sure, it's helpful if it happens, but again against a competent toss it really never should. People spread their stuff out.
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On September 14 2010 07:53 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 07:47 Half wrote:On September 14 2010 07:45 ltortoise wrote:On September 14 2010 07:43 Half wrote:
Hai guys, instead of comparing Ghosts versus HTs which is entirely futile because certain people can't get past there victimization complexes, lets pretend what would happen if Ghosts didn't exist.
HTs get storm.
Bio dies.
The end. ...What? I don't generally use ghosts in TvP, even when Templars are in play, because I don't feel that ghosts are an effective counter at all... It's way too reactive, since the toss chooses when and where to engage with templar, and almost always will get those key storms off. I counter storm just by having lots of stuff Why wouldn't you invest 150/150 to possibly neutralize his entire Tier 3 portion of his army? I mean, I usually skip ghosts early/mid game too, it isn't nearly effective enough against normal units to warrant the wierd tech path and cost, but by lategame, its almost a "why not" unit... Even off 2 base, 150 gas is a fucking metric shit ton of gas. I could be spending that gas on more +attack/armor upgrades, more medivacs, or start adding tanks, get the pre-igniter upgrade.... All of which are, in my personal opinion, far more multi-purpose and guaranteed to pull their weight. A ghost is not. I cast it's EMP, does the Protoss retreat? Do I hit the Templars? It's a gamble, and usually a gamble on how bad the Protoss is. All the other uses of gas I mentioned are not a gamble, and are consistently helpful every single time. If the Protoss is worth a damn, they can easily force a situation where each templar costs an entire EMP to neutralize, and I don't consider that worth it, since templars have a dual purpose (archon morph) and ghosts do not, except as some dps to chargelots I suppose. EMP'ing a large chunk of their army? Sure, it's helpful if it happens, but again against a competent toss it really never should. People spread their stuff out.
You're not going to need that many medivacs and you won't need vikings either if he's going heavy on templars (as opposed to collusus). That leaves factory units, which aren't very good in TvP imo, as they slow your army down a ton and don't do too much damage. I have a hard time in TvP tho, so maybe my opinions on whats good and not aren't valid 
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On September 14 2010 07:48 HuHEN wrote:
How does all PvT discussion always descend into a discussion about HTs and ghosts, there are so many other factors effecting the matchup.
More importantly, why did this thread derail into a HT/ghost argument in the first place?
Go Day[9]!
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On September 14 2010 09:39 attackfighter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 07:53 ltortoise wrote:On September 14 2010 07:47 Half wrote:On September 14 2010 07:45 ltortoise wrote:On September 14 2010 07:43 Half wrote:
Hai guys, instead of comparing Ghosts versus HTs which is entirely futile because certain people can't get past there victimization complexes, lets pretend what would happen if Ghosts didn't exist.
HTs get storm.
Bio dies.
The end. ...What? I don't generally use ghosts in TvP, even when Templars are in play, because I don't feel that ghosts are an effective counter at all... It's way too reactive, since the toss chooses when and where to engage with templar, and almost always will get those key storms off. I counter storm just by having lots of stuff Why wouldn't you invest 150/150 to possibly neutralize his entire Tier 3 portion of his army? I mean, I usually skip ghosts early/mid game too, it isn't nearly effective enough against normal units to warrant the wierd tech path and cost, but by lategame, its almost a "why not" unit... Even off 2 base, 150 gas is a fucking metric shit ton of gas. I could be spending that gas on more +attack/armor upgrades, more medivacs, or start adding tanks, get the pre-igniter upgrade.... All of which are, in my personal opinion, far more multi-purpose and guaranteed to pull their weight. A ghost is not. I cast it's EMP, does the Protoss retreat? Do I hit the Templars? It's a gamble, and usually a gamble on how bad the Protoss is. All the other uses of gas I mentioned are not a gamble, and are consistently helpful every single time. If the Protoss is worth a damn, they can easily force a situation where each templar costs an entire EMP to neutralize, and I don't consider that worth it, since templars have a dual purpose (archon morph) and ghosts do not, except as some dps to chargelots I suppose. EMP'ing a large chunk of their army? Sure, it's helpful if it happens, but again against a competent toss it really never should. People spread their stuff out. You're not going to need that many medivacs and you won't need vikings either if he's going heavy on templars (as opposed to collusus). That leaves factory units, which aren't very good in TvP imo, as they slow your army down a ton and don't do too much damage. I have a hard time in TvP tho, so maybe my opinions on whats good and not aren't valid
Lots of medivacs = awesome. Your army size becomes smaller, but your "front line" becomes buff as hell (each medivac is limited to healing 1 unit at a time), allowing you to win engagements you shouldn't be winning at all, and if you reach critical medivac mass, you can almost run perma-stim.
Having "too many" medivacs is a very good problem to have. Each one regenerates energy and heals more and more... Your army becomes supremely efficient. In these types of situations, a Toss can easily lose the game even if the map was split right down the middle and each of you mines it out. Hard to beat the efficiency of having a lot of medivacs.
The reason why people can't just mass medivacs is that if you add them all at once you'll be punished. You have to add them slow, so if you end up with a mass of them, you are rewarded heavily. It's also possible they are imbalanced, but let's not discuss that
As far as factory units, pre-igniter hellions are a strong option in TvP if you want to go for a quick win against an aggressive speedlot/templar build which are oddly popular. They are anything BUT immobile.
Tanks are pretty meh, I agree, but having a few siege tanks at crucial locations is still better trying to get lucky with ghosts, at least IMO.
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"I answered the shit out of that question"
XD
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That's a one time investment of 400 resources... building 4 ghosts costs 400 more resources than 4 HT, and in a typical game you're going to be getting a lot more than that. you've also failed to address the warp in mechanic, which allows the protoss to regenerate their storms almost instantly
it seems you have no idea how economics work bud. but ill let someone else explain that to you since i dont want to be bothered in going into details.
I've already covered why Terran micro is unforgiving (lack of it will leave your army in the red, casters without energy and half your units trapped behind forcefields so they can't escape).
I don't see why you think kitings any easier than spell casting, essentially both just require a few clicks. And I wasn't saying Terran was harder due to kiting, it was kiting in conjunction with the spell casting and other army management skills that they require.
terran micro? unforgiving? terran needs micro? hmm, i guess you forgot that sentries have energy. so i guess you also forgot what happens if a sentry were to get emped yes? oh, remember the fact that emp is a aoe? so i can easily get a group of sentries and a group of templar with a few emps. so now what happens to force fields i wonder? honestly, just watch a TvP game and stop theory crafting.
anyone can kite, its insanely easy to do. u shoot then run shoot then run. what about that is hard to do?
I highlighted the word 'probably' so you'd be able to tell that I didn't actually get that statistic from anywhere. It's likely accurate though, since the vast majority of players aren't even in diamond and those that are mostly hover around the mid/low level.
...
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I think what Day9 gets that 99% of forum posters miss is that Blizzard OWNS the game, and nobody balances games by reading internet forums and tallying up "x is op" posts, or even tallying up "x is op and i am an idra/morrow tier player" posts. That would be dumb.
ThereFORE, your only reasonable choices are to change races if you're zerg, stop playing the game, or work hard to improve your mechanics and expand your understanding of the game with the goal of smashing 95% of players regardless of imbalance, and smashing the rest of them after things eventually get tweaked. Any of these choices are equally sensible as long as you're not just playing a race because everyone says it's OP, but whining on forums about balance is the biggest waste of time imaginable and if I ran TL I would pretty much ban it entirely.
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On September 15 2010 01:06 adius wrote:
I think what Day9 gets that 99% of forum posters miss is that Blizzard OWNS the game, and nobody balances games by reading internet forums and tallying up "x is op" posts, or even tallying up "x is op and i am an idra/morrow tier player" posts. That would be dumb.
ThereFORE, your only reasonable choices are to change races if you're zerg, stop playing the game, or work hard to improve your mechanics and expand your understanding of the game with the goal of smashing 95% of players regardless of imbalance, and smashing the rest of them after things eventually get tweaked. Any of these choices are equally sensible as long as you're not just playing a race because everyone says it's OP, but whining on forums about balance is the biggest waste of time imaginable and if I ran TL I would pretty much ban it entirely.
It becomes even more pointless to complain about imbalance once you realise that the ladder system gives you a 50% win-rate no matter what. "oh no my race is so weak, yet I win the same amount of games as the supposedly OP race!"
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On September 15 2010 04:40 attackfighter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 01:06 adius wrote:
I think what Day9 gets that 99% of forum posters miss is that Blizzard OWNS the game, and nobody balances games by reading internet forums and tallying up "x is op" posts, or even tallying up "x is op and i am an idra/morrow tier player" posts. That would be dumb.
ThereFORE, your only reasonable choices are to change races if you're zerg, stop playing the game, or work hard to improve your mechanics and expand your understanding of the game with the goal of smashing 95% of players regardless of imbalance, and smashing the rest of them after things eventually get tweaked. Any of these choices are equally sensible as long as you're not just playing a race because everyone says it's OP, but whining on forums about balance is the biggest waste of time imaginable and if I ran TL I would pretty much ban it entirely. It becomes even more pointless to complain about imbalance once you realise that the ladder system gives you a 50% win-rate no matter what. "oh no my race is so weak, yet I win the same amount of games as the supposedly OP race!"
Yes, Terran, Protoss and Zerg have the same win/loss ratios...
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/9784/racediamond.png
Edit: Link was weird. Also, if you don't understand the graph, ask me.
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On September 14 2010 07:53 ltortoise wrote:
EMP'ing a large chunk of their army? Sure, it's helpful if it happens, but again against a competent toss it really never should. People spread their stuff out.
Because you have ghosts.
See just because you can't instantly neutralize like 1000/1000 worth of casters (which is pretty unlikely against any half decent toss) doesn't mean they have no value in your army.
You'er attempting to argue that Ghosts have little place in TvP anyway because it is largely ineffectual against half decent protoss who are good at spreading units out and feedbacking with the aid of obs's, and then you simultaneously point towards meta game developments in your favor that only exist because ghosts do.
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A fantasy scenario:
Terran player: T is fine yo.
Terran hater: No it's not you idiot.
Terran player: Oh, really? My god! Your argument has made me see a new light, maybe I'm wrong!
Terran hater: Wow! Your acceptance of my point and your new perspective has taught me the art of constructive conversation about this game!
*hugs*
This will obviously never happen. And I think it might be why Day[9] chooses not to step too far into this mire by staying neutral until this (barely) month old game starts to develop.
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That graph says it's for race distribution, meaning it shows how many diamond players play each race. Doesn't have anything to do with win statistics, and if you're arguing that the ladder doesn't match you up so you have a 50% win ratio you're an idiot.
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On September 15 2010 07:29 attackfighter wrote:That graph says it's for race distribution, meaning it shows how many diamond players play each race. Doesn't have anything to do with win statistics, and if you're arguing that the ladder doesn't match you up so you have a 50% win ratio you're an idiot.
Well if you actually studied the graph you might realize that it is about race distribution, the percentage of each race at different point intervals. And since points are directly related to your wins... you see what I'm getting at.
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day 9 is hilarious, i see where tasteless gets it
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On September 15 2010 07:50 Dayling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2010 07:29 attackfighter wrote:That graph says it's for race distribution, meaning it shows how many diamond players play each race. Doesn't have anything to do with win statistics, and if you're arguing that the ladder doesn't match you up so you have a 50% win ratio you're an idiot. Well if you actually studied the graph you might realize that it is about race distribution, the percentage of each race at different point intervals. And since points are directly related to your wins... you see what I'm getting at.
Well if you actually studied my post you'd realize that the first thing I wrote was "That graph says it's for race distribution".
And maybe the top terran players have >50% wins, but that's true for the top zergs as well. And it doesn't change the fact that anyone who's not a top player (99.999% of the userbase) will level out at a 50% win-rate, which kinda invalidates their whining about imbalance.
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On September 15 2010 06:57 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 07:53 ltortoise wrote:
EMP'ing a large chunk of their army? Sure, it's helpful if it happens, but again against a competent toss it really never should. People spread their stuff out.
Because you have ghosts. See just because you can't instantly neutralize like 1000/1000 worth of casters (which is pretty unlikely against any half decent toss) doesn't mean they have no value in your army. You'er attempting to argue that Ghosts have little place in TvP anyway because it is largely ineffectual against half decent protoss who are good at spreading units out and feedbacking with the aid of obs's, and then you simultaneously point towards meta game developments in your favor that only exist because ghosts do.
No, people don't spread their units out simply because of ghosts. It turns out that a concave is better for attacking and defending PERIOD (surprise surprise, ever played brood war?)
It also turns out that the best position to have your army in (a spread out concave) also makes it the least vulnerable to EMP.
I'm not saying ghosts can't be viable/usable, but in my TvP FE style, they have no place. They come too little, too late, and gas is precious.
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I'm bumping this because Day9's predictions about how people would view game balance are prophetic. Also, his comments after his predictions are still relevant to the current balance whining going on.
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Russian Federation124 Posts
On September 12 2010 17:02 Damnesiac wrote:
So who do i listen to... Day[9].. hasn't won anything in sc2 really, and supposedly barely plays at all, OR players who were better than him in sc1 and are far better than him in sc2 with more knowledge. I like day9 in sc1 because he had credibility and experience to back up whatever you said. In sc2 he is just some sort of master of extrapolation with no evidence what so ever. IdrA gives solid reasoning for all his points and his predictions in every field have super accurate results. Not only that but many top level players including some terrans agree that there is imbalance. I guess I am just too demanding of people who make pretty ballsy claims when there arguement is ' We are going to see this happen then this happen and then this will happen '
Just sit down and think about what u just said, if u haven't realized day9 is a very well known and OLD schoolbw player that's been around since the game came out as, a PLAYER and as a analyzer/commentator and he does pre much the same thing for sc2, he understands the game I would say more then most players in the world, and knowing idra he is a biased whiner since he is a player and every player wants their race to have an edge.
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EPT
