EPTOn September 12 2010 20:09 NonFactor wrote:
Wasting my breath here I'm sure.
Wasting my breath here I'm sure.
So am I obviously.
Day[9] interview at WCG - Page 5
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
So am I obviously. | ||
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Craton
United States17250 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4727 Posts
Step 2: Reading comments of people saying he is wrong and delusional Step 3: Realising that most of those people put words in his mouth that he never even said Step 4: Checking TL-registration dates of these people (makes me wish I would have registered earlier then 2008, I would be so much cooler  )Step 5: Stop writing a well thought-out response, because it is just a waste of time. Being a dick instead. If you guys would have been around in 1998-2000 or so, you would probably be way more careful when talking about balance in SC2. Well, at least you should be. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
On September 12 2010 20:30 Malinor wrote: Step 1: Watch Day[9] interview Step 2: Reading comments of people saying he is wrong and delusional Step 3: Realising that most of those people put words in his mouth that he never even said Step 4: Checking TL-registration dates of these people (makes me wish I would have registered earlier then 2008, I would be so much cooler )Step 5: Stop writing a well thought-out response, because it is just a waste of time. Being a dick instead. If you guys would have been around in 1998-2000 or so, you would probably be way more careful when talking about balance in SC2. Well, at least you should be. Step 3 is especially true, there are so many false interpretations of this interview. | ||
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Wolfpox
Canada164 Posts
I realize that Day[9] is trying to be politically correct by avoiding questions of balance, and is doing the "good gamer" thing of pretending like a game is balanced in order to work on strategies (since there is no point is thinking of imbalance when working on strategies) but that doesn't mean he's right if he says its too early to tell, etc. Oh and here's some more good steps: Step 1: Watch everything Day[9] says Step 2: Worship his every word as sacred truth Step 3: Repeat what he says like an unthinking robot on the forums Step 4: Shit all over anything that doesn't regurgitate that one guy's opinion The attitude of Day[9], and his huge pride in trying to pretend like that game doesn't need balance fixes, is what annoys me. "BOOM I ANSWERD TEH SHI OUT OF THAT QUESTION". No you didn't, you just sidestepped it and gave a formulaic non-answer. The attitude implies that patches, balances and expansions are just ways to "tune" or "improve" it, not actually fix something that's wrong. What magic wand was waved that suddenly turned the game from totally zany beta phase, to unquestionable perfect balance? Nothing. It's perfectly valid and fair to raise balance concerns UNLESS you want to discuss strategy... which is what Day[9] is exclusively doing, besides shoutcasting some stuff. So it's fine for him to ignore balance in his little dailies, but it's absurd to not even acknowledge it otherwise | ||
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dahornnn
United Kingdom395 Posts
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HuHEN
United Kingdom514 Posts
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eazo
United States530 Posts
On September 12 2010 18:07 NonFactor wrote: Idra doesen't strike to me as a person who would lie about stuff like this. He might say stuff in a game when hes losing, but that's just rage. While if asked stuff like this in interviews he usually gives proper responses to why and how things are wrong, you can also see some posts by Idra. Also saying that Idra would lie so his race would get buffed to make extra money is just ridicolous lol. A game with overpowered races is a game that won't last long. = Money lost in the long run. And there is imo a huge issue, and that is the Zerg scouting, Reapers are too. And no, don't think 5 seconds will fix anything. Because the issue there isn't really the reapers. The issue is that you are forced to go Roaches, and the instant you do that, the Terran will start pumping Marauders from 5 rax, take off his SVCs and steam roll you. Incredibly hard to stop, but easy to execute from the T side. (Tech lab = Reapers and Marauders, kinda silly how easily a T can change unit compositions, but yeah...) Then you have a ball of Reapers / Marauders with stim. Or something we see more often thesedays is that they mix in Marines too. And a shit ton of SVCs. Versus like maybe 10 roaches and some lings that melt instantly. Last game of Idra vs Morrow shows greatly another issue. How is Zerg supposed to figure out what T is doing? One Techlab doesen't mean anything, and since it's cheap, T can just throw it there for shits and giggles. These 2 are the main reasons I see Zergs losing, and why I lose myself. Since I can't figure out what T is doing, I need to either: 1. Take a blind guess and power some type of unit. 2. Tech to lair and ''prepare for everything'' but yeah, that usually ends with me getting steamrolled. For example if your going for Hydralisks and he actually went for a Bio push, it's straight GG. If you went Roaches expecting a Marine / Hellion push, but he actually went Banshees, it's usually GG. (Not maybe straight away but the economic damage you will take is great.) I like Day9, he's my favourite caster. But frankly, his play in HDH wasn't impressive, and I doubt his play in the future will be impressive either. He just isn't that competitive. Anyone has his account name to check where does he lay in points now? Anything under 1k would be dissapointing tbh. I think Day9 just tries to stay neutral. Which is understandable, but that doesen't make him credible imo. I stopped reading after this post after the first line -_- But in all seriosness, the game is EXTREMELY well balanced for early in the games life it is. Normally, in most RTS's the first tournaments are literally all of one race. Mirror matches, every one of them. I love how people expect the game to play exactly like BW right after its release. BW has had the advantage of over 10 years to develop and "mature". SC2 came out in july. less than 2 months ago. SC2 =/= BW. Its a completely different game, and like brood war it will need time to develop and find it's boxer's, nada's, yellow's and Nal_ra's before we can have guys like Flash and Jaedong. Basically what i'm trying to say is that I fully agree with day[9]'s predictions and he kind of took the words out of my mouth. And too the people that are arguing about day's credibility... no, this guy is a top level player, while he may not be a pro please head over to day9tv.blip.tv and take a look at one of the 170 videos there. His knowledge of the game and RTS's in general is staggering. And while he may no longer be a "pro" he knows so much about the game. | ||
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makii
31 Posts
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Bhaalgorn
Slovenia214 Posts
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HuHEN
United Kingdom514 Posts
On September 12 2010 21:26 Bhaalgorn wrote: It's much easier to say the game is imbalanced and you didn't have a chance of winning than admitting you made too many mistakes or were just outplayed. Its much easier to give the self serving reason for your wins (I outplayed my opponent) than to accept that your race might be stronger, im telling you, I won half of the TvTs I played with NO experience of the matchup, the fact is the terran players "at my level" (1100ish diamond), couldnt even beat someone with practically no clue what he is doing in the matchup, my only conclusion is that they were infact very poor players, only in that position in diamond because of their race. BTW I main toss, ive also tryed picking zerg, that didnt go so well! And yea, I know I have a chance of winning against terran, its just that I have a much higher chance when I am terran myself. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
He's not claiming everything is perfect, he's even acknowledging that there is a need for patching. His big point though is that people need to control how they think as it changes everything about your attitude and playstyle. ZvT might be terran favored, but its still winnable for the Z if you're a better player. And 99% of us could be better players and could have won that game we just got ROFL-stomped in. You're not a game designer working at Blizzard. Leave the changes to them, you work on the part you can control, which is "how do I win this fucked up MU?" He always answers balance questions in this fashion, because frankly, its the best way to approach the situation. | ||
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
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ThE_ShiZ
United States143 Posts
As far as balance opinion goes, most of the top-level players agree that there needs to be changes. The quality of play from the T's in gsl is sub-par, no better than a diamond level terran, and they still manage to win. Protoss has some issues too but it would be hard to see how that balances out pvt. Actually, if Zerg get's an early-game buff, I'd say banelings are in need of a slight nerf. Bioball has become almost completely useless nowadays in tvz. It gets on my nerves when people give ridiculous responses to game strategies. I think day[9]9 said that zergs don't know how to deal with reapers yet but one day someone will figure out what to do, and i think one of the recommendations was "just make mass queens and spines!" which I think was actually Morrow's idea. It seems like half the responses I hear are from newbs or non-Z players that never played the receiving end of that matchup. "Oh, mass lings, spread creep, make roaches, spines, blah blah blah." yeah, It's not as easy as "making spines" or "making roaches." The problem is, all those things gets easily kited, and even if you hold it off, you're put too far behind economically. Spines are effectively 150, and so are queens, and roaches kill econ as well, and can't compete with EZ marauder followup. Lings get raped by critical mass of Reapers. The crappy AA deosn't help either. I've seen T's drop 3 bunks and 2 factories with addons and still get banshees quickly. How is Z supposed to see that? The banshees are a bit later, but the Z is going to sacrifice econ and tech for Defense. There is something wrong if you can get such a strong harass and still manage to get a saturated expo up, before the Z actually, even though Z gets raped on 2-2 bases. | ||
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HuHEN
United Kingdom514 Posts
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Gleve
United States206 Posts
Laughed so hard :D | ||
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fathead
United States158 Posts
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Boundz(DarKo)
5311 Posts
On a side note, the next sc2 game will prolly have like 5 new zerg units if this balance continues.  | ||
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Redmark
Canada2129 Posts
On September 12 2010 21:48 HuHEN wrote: I agree, but I just also feel we need to give feedback and try to help the game to continue to improve. No, what we need is to play. Anyone could say that MMM is winning every tournament. Everybody has their own bias, and their own body of knowledge. No one, noob or pro, can be trusted. But win a tournament with MMM? That's a cold hard fact. If every tournament was won by MMM, Blizzard would do something. That's the point, really. | ||
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Mongery
892 Posts
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