|
On September 12 2010 17:41 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think he's right about the balance thing. Many games balance themselves out over time, unless there is a huge issue. So Blizz is right to make minor changes instead of just changing the game completely for no reason.
Also, someone said that Day9 isnt very credible in sc2, and they'd rather listen to IdrA about balance? Ever considered IdrA might be very biased, seeing as he plays Zerg? If i was a pro Zerg player i'd just say that every other race besides my own was OP, why wouldnt I? Better race = more $$.
Day9 is one of the most credible guys when it comes to balance, imo.
Idra doesen't strike to me as a person who would lie about stuff like this. He might say stuff in a game when hes losing, but that's just rage. While if asked stuff like this in interviews he usually gives proper responses to why and how things are wrong, you can also see some posts by Idra. Also saying that Idra would lie so his race would get buffed to make extra money is just ridicolous lol. A game with overpowered races is a game that won't last long. = Money lost in the long run.
And there is imo a huge issue, and that is the Zerg scouting, Reapers are too. And no, don't think 5 seconds will fix anything. Because the issue there isn't really the reapers. The issue is that you are forced to go Roaches, and the instant you do that, the Terran will start pumping Marauders from 5 rax, take off his SVCs and steam roll you. Incredibly hard to stop, but easy to execute from the T side. (Tech lab = Reapers and Marauders, kinda silly how easily a T can change unit compositions, but yeah...) Then you have a ball of Reapers / Marauders with stim. Or something we see more often thesedays is that they mix in Marines too. And a shit ton of SVCs. Versus like maybe 10 roaches and some lings that melt instantly.
Last game of Idra vs Morrow shows greatly another issue. How is Zerg supposed to figure out what T is doing? One Techlab doesen't mean anything, and since it's cheap, T can just throw it there for shits and giggles. These 2 are the main reasons I see Zergs losing, and why I lose myself. Since I can't figure out what T is doing, I need to either: 1. Take a blind guess and power some type of unit. 2. Tech to lair and ''prepare for everything'' but yeah, that usually ends with me getting steamrolled. For example if your going for Hydralisks and he actually went for a Bio push, it's straight GG. If you went Roaches expecting a Marine / Hellion push, but he actually went Banshees, it's usually GG. (Not maybe straight away but the economic damage you will take is great.)
I like Day9, he's my favourite caster. But frankly, his play in HDH wasn't impressive, and I doubt his play in the future will be impressive either. He just isn't that competitive. Anyone has his account name to check where does he lay in points now? Anything under 1k would be dissapointing tbh. I think Day9 just tries to stay neutral. Which is understandable, but that doesen't make him credible imo.
|
day9 needs to stop thinking tvz is balanced. it's a fucking fact of numbers, the # of openers T has thanks to their unit diversity vs the # of routes zerg has is simply retarded. it's something like 9 vs 14 combat units.
|
I wonder if they will add units to multiplayer in the future expansions. That will be cool.
|
Basically Day9 was saying people jump the shark as far as balance issues, and that maybe things aren't quite as imbalanced as a lot of people assume, and if they are, they have lots of ways to fix it. I don't think he ever said balance is perfect right now, its just too early to really know the extent of any real core issues.
Also he clearly has some right to talk about the game, its only been his life for 10 years...
|
On September 12 2010 17:02 Damnesiac wrote:
So who do i listen to... Day[9].. hasn't won anything in sc2 really, and supposedly barely plays at all, OR players who were better than him in sc1 and are far better than him in sc2 with more knowledge. I like day9 in sc1 because he had credibility and experience to back up whatever you said. In sc2 he is just some sort of master of extrapolation with no evidence what so ever. IdrA gives solid reasoning for all his points and his predictions in every field have super accurate results. Not only that but many top level players including some terrans agree that there is imbalance. I guess I am just too demanding of people who make pretty ballsy claims when there arguement is ' We are going to see this happen then this happen and then this will happen '
Oh god these newbies...
*Tears hair*
Funny little interview, it's nice to hear his actual opinions at times aswell 
|
On September 12 2010 18:08 Vei wrote:
day9 needs to stop thinking tvz is balanced. it's a fucking fact of numbers, the # of openers T has thanks to their unit diversity vs the # of routes zerg has is simply retarded. it's something like 9 vs 14 combat units.
More of this... Sure I can agree that zerg doesnt have the biggest set of units to work with, but that's not really a problem if shit works.
BW is the best example in the book. Zerg has the SAME friggin "problems" in BW. You need to be good with managing your larvae, you need excellent scouting and Terran has a billion openings that they can do to mess with the zerg early/mid.
Bunker rush, BBS, 4rax allin, fast vulture, 2starport Wraith, 14 CC, all the variants of a rax-CC opening that goes into 5rax play or 4fact goliath pushes and I dont know what... There are just so many things the zerg has to account for and if you produce too many drones at any point with the wrong information on your hand (or vice versa, make too many units) you will almost ALWAYS loose.
Standard openings just doesnt appear because "that's how you do it" it's because it works as the best response to what MOST of what the opponent can throw at you, and will put you in a good position for the later stages of the game.
PvT in BW is also another good example. Early in history, Terran had to account for many many diffrent openings which made the matchup very hard - suddenly terran discovered a ways to openen safely and get good eco/punish greedy tosses, which put them in good positions later on in the game.
PvZ is also a good example. Toss dont have many openings to choose from and has to prepare for all the diffrent types of all-ins zerg can do. Lurkerdrops, doomdrops, hydra all in, ling all in, lurker ling busts and 2-hat muta (not as much all-in though..) and does all of this with almost 1 opening.
Forge-FE.
--
I think it's awesome that all these new SC2 players come here to post their opinions, but I'm getting abit sick of how they think shit is a "fact" when history tells you something totally diffrent.
Let's just wait and see how clever people can adapt and do new and diffrent things and how diffrent patches and expansions will change gameplay, because I'm sure those will happen since tuning is needed for a game like this to keep growing and be as perfect as possible.
|
This is my interpretation of what Day was saying:
Obviously the game isn't perfectly balanced. No game ever is, and a game this new can be expected to be imbalanced. However, and again due to the game's youth, nobody has figured out the "best way" to play each matchup. It's quite possible that what we think is imbalanced today may actually be quite fine once strategies start evolving, and what we think is fine or weak today may be later considered overpowered by the same token. It's better to just keep trying to do the best with what you are dealt, because things are going to change whether you complain or not and you might not even be complaining about the right things.
On September 12 2010 17:15 Sfydjklm wrote:
The problem is that zerg is dominated in all aspects of the game.
Don't be melodramatic.
|
Harsh first question haha. You could tell he was itching to say BW.
I can't believe how many rubbish posts about balance there are in this thread already. Day[9] is right that it is way too early to claim any race is overpowered and just give up trying to find ways around it.
The difference between a great player and an average "I can follow build orders" player is that the great player sees a powerful opposing build as a hole in his own stragegy that he needs to account for. The lesser player gives up and whines about balance.
Sure there are issues in the game but there are just way too many people jumping on the imbalance bandwagon at this stage...
|
On September 12 2010 18:07 NonFactor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 17:41 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think he's right about the balance thing. Many games balance themselves out over time, unless there is a huge issue. So Blizz is right to make minor changes instead of just changing the game completely for no reason.
Also, someone said that Day9 isnt very credible in sc2, and they'd rather listen to IdrA about balance? Ever considered IdrA might be very biased, seeing as he plays Zerg? If i was a pro Zerg player i'd just say that every other race besides my own was OP, why wouldnt I? Better race = more $$.
Day9 is one of the most credible guys when it comes to balance, imo. Idra doesen't strike to me as a person who would lie about stuff like this. He might say stuff in a game when hes losing, but that's just rage. While if asked stuff like this in interviews he usually gives proper responses to why and how things are wrong, you can also see some posts by Idra. Also saying that Idra would lie so his race would get buffed to make extra money is just ridicolous lol. A game with overpowered races is a game that won't last long. = Money lost in the long run. And there is imo a huge issue, and that is the Zerg scouting, Reapers are too. And no, don't think 5 seconds will fix anything. Because the issue there isn't really the reapers. The issue is that you are forced to go Roaches, and the instant you do that, the Terran will start pumping Marauders from 5 rax, take off his SVCs and steam roll you. Incredibly hard to stop, but easy to execute from the T side. (Tech lab = Reapers and Marauders, kinda silly how easily a T can change unit compositions, but yeah...) Then you have a ball of Reapers / Marauders with stim. Or something we see more often thesedays is that they mix in Marines too. And a shit ton of SVCs. Versus like maybe 10 roaches and some lings that melt instantly. Last game of Idra vs Morrow shows greatly another issue. How is Zerg supposed to figure out what T is doing? One Techlab doesen't mean anything, and since it's cheap, T can just throw it there for shits and giggles. These 2 are the main reasons I see Zergs losing, and why I lose myself. Since I can't figure out what T is doing, I need to either: 1. Take a blind guess and power some type of unit. 2. Tech to lair and ''prepare for everything'' but yeah, that usually ends with me getting steamrolled. For example if your going for Hydralisks and he actually went for a Bio push, it's straight GG. If you went Roaches expecting a Marine / Hellion push, but he actually went Banshees, it's usually GG. (Not maybe straight away but the economic damage you will take is great.) I like Day9, he's my favourite caster. But frankly, his play in HDH wasn't impressive, and I doubt his play in the future will be impressive either. He just isn't that competitive. Anyone has his account name to check where does he lay in points now? Anything under 1k would be dissapointing tbh. I think Day9 just tries to stay neutral. Which is understandable, but that doesen't make him credible imo.
IdrA is a bm pro zerg player, why would anyone listen to him about balance? 
It doesnt matter if there is an imbalance now, useless to discuss.
Also, how is Day9 staying neutral? He is saying that the problem will fix itself and that zergs just need to try different things out, how is that neutral? Neutral would be him saying "i dunno lol".
The whine needs to stop, every zerg i play on the ladder doesnt GG, but instead goes "Terran imba, play a real race", as if that was the reason he lost.
I dont like how he asked day9 about balance either. If only the community could drop the crying and just discuss ways to actually beat 5 rax reaper or whatever. Spending your time crying in the corner isnt gonna do anything
|
I POSTED THE SHIT OUT OF THIS POST! lol ohh day9, funny funny man.
|
On September 12 2010 18:33 rocketboy77 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 17:15 Sfydjklm wrote:
The problem is that zerg is dominated in all aspects of the game. Don't be melodramatic.
dont talk bout balance until u get out of gold league yo;(
|
On September 12 2010 18:35 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 18:07 NonFactor wrote:On September 12 2010 17:41 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think he's right about the balance thing. Many games balance themselves out over time, unless there is a huge issue. So Blizz is right to make minor changes instead of just changing the game completely for no reason.
Also, someone said that Day9 isnt very credible in sc2, and they'd rather listen to IdrA about balance? Ever considered IdrA might be very biased, seeing as he plays Zerg? If i was a pro Zerg player i'd just say that every other race besides my own was OP, why wouldnt I? Better race = more $$.
Day9 is one of the most credible guys when it comes to balance, imo. Idra doesen't strike to me as a person who would lie about stuff like this. He might say stuff in a game when hes losing, but that's just rage. While if asked stuff like this in interviews he usually gives proper responses to why and how things are wrong, you can also see some posts by Idra. Also saying that Idra would lie so his race would get buffed to make extra money is just ridicolous lol. A game with overpowered races is a game that won't last long. = Money lost in the long run. And there is imo a huge issue, and that is the Zerg scouting, Reapers are too. And no, don't think 5 seconds will fix anything. Because the issue there isn't really the reapers. The issue is that you are forced to go Roaches, and the instant you do that, the Terran will start pumping Marauders from 5 rax, take off his SVCs and steam roll you. Incredibly hard to stop, but easy to execute from the T side. (Tech lab = Reapers and Marauders, kinda silly how easily a T can change unit compositions, but yeah...) Then you have a ball of Reapers / Marauders with stim. Or something we see more often thesedays is that they mix in Marines too. And a shit ton of SVCs. Versus like maybe 10 roaches and some lings that melt instantly. Last game of Idra vs Morrow shows greatly another issue. How is Zerg supposed to figure out what T is doing? One Techlab doesen't mean anything, and since it's cheap, T can just throw it there for shits and giggles. These 2 are the main reasons I see Zergs losing, and why I lose myself. Since I can't figure out what T is doing, I need to either: 1. Take a blind guess and power some type of unit. 2. Tech to lair and ''prepare for everything'' but yeah, that usually ends with me getting steamrolled. For example if your going for Hydralisks and he actually went for a Bio push, it's straight GG. If you went Roaches expecting a Marine / Hellion push, but he actually went Banshees, it's usually GG. (Not maybe straight away but the economic damage you will take is great.) I like Day9, he's my favourite caster. But frankly, his play in HDH wasn't impressive, and I doubt his play in the future will be impressive either. He just isn't that competitive. Anyone has his account name to check where does he lay in points now? Anything under 1k would be dissapointing tbh. I think Day9 just tries to stay neutral. Which is understandable, but that doesen't make him credible imo. IdrA is a bm pro zerg player, why would anyone listen to him about balance? It doesnt matter if there is an imbalance now, useless to discuss. Also, how is Day9 staying neutral? He is saying that the problem will fix itself and that zergs just need to try different things out, how is that neutral? Neutral would be him saying "i dunno lol". The whine needs to stop, every zerg i play on the ladder doesnt GG, but instead goes "Terran imba, play a real race", as if that was the reason he lost. I dont like how he asked day9 about balance either. If only the community could drop the crying and just discuss ways to actually beat 5 rax reaper or whatever. Spending your time crying in the corner isnt gonna do anything
You must have missed the times where IdrA admitted some aspects that people whined about zerg were in fact fine or how when he played protoss he said it was pretty much impossible for him to lose. Just because he's very outspoken about the perceived inadequacies surrounding what is currently his race doesn't mean he would lie or exaggerate balance issues. If anything you're the one being biased thinking just because he is angrier than most after losing it somehow affects his ability to discern what balance issues are there, maybe you should actually watch his interviews instead of thinking he's some super bm player and shouldn't be listened to for anything.
Also I dunno why you bring up the fact that he is a pro level zerg player as something that means he shouldn't be listened to for balance issues regarding THAT RACE. Do you expect a silver level protoss player to be able to discern what problems zerg faces?
|
On September 12 2010 17:29 _Darwin_ wrote:I said: Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 17:18 _Darwin_ wrote:
So Day9 is waiting for the expansion to "create solutions to the problem." And you said: Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 17:21 ShaperofDreams wrote: ur disappointed that an incredibly complex strategy game isnt balanced by the first month of release?
I'm not sure how the two relate. To clarify: I'm not disappointed in the imbalance. I'm disappointed in Day9 refusing to acknowledge the imbalance.
He's not refusing it. He's just saying that there are still things to discover and the game is way to young to make a judgement about imbalance.
I like Day9, he's my favourite caster. But frankly, his play in HDH wasn't impressive, and I doubt his play in the future will be impressive either. He just isn't that competitive. Anyone has his account name to check where does he lay in points now? Anything under 1k would be dissapointing tbh. I think Day9 just tries to stay neutral. Which is understandable, but that doesen't make him credible imo.
I think he has like a 17-4 record in platinum with a bonus pool of around 400. He doesn't play that much.
|
On September 12 2010 16:57 TedJustice wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 16:43 Sfydjklm wrote:
how can zergs start winning once they figure out how to open safely if zerg 200/200 is inferior to every other race by a large margin? They'll figure out ways to not let their opponent get to 200/200, if that's what it takes to win. They'll also probably figure out more neat tricks like the muta magic boxing, etc. that will give them smaller edges in battles.
Sorry, but it's just very funny to me how the most talked about micro trick in sc2 involves not really touching your units at all.
About the interview, horrible questions and horrible attitude. You're lucky it was Day9 you were interviewing.
|
I dont understand why Day[9] isnt commentating GSL instead of tasteless. Hes about 200x more knowledgeable on the subject...
|
On September 12 2010 18:58 TheComeback wrote:
I dont understand why Day[9] isnt commentating GSL instead of tasteless. Hes about 200x more knowledgeable on the subject...
Maybe it's because Tasteless lives in Korea, or that he's already been commentating for Gom?
I kind of like how Day9 is always right, except if he says anything about TvZ according to a lot of folks. Oh well.
|
On September 12 2010 17:26 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 17:24 ShaperofDreams wrote:On September 12 2010 17:23 Sfydjklm wrote:On September 12 2010 17:17 ShaperofDreams wrote:On September 12 2010 16:43 Sfydjklm wrote:
how can zergs start winning once they figure out how to open safely if zerg 200/200 is inferior to every other race by a large margin?
That logic actually brings a lot more concern than relief because once protoss/terran figure out good macro builds with harrassment options the imbalances will manifest themselves even worse.
And also wc3 is a horrible example of blizzard knowing how to balance a game;( have you watched bw? terran has the best 200\200 army ez. by a large margin. the other races have to do cutesy shit all the time. +15 attack upgrade for siege tanks by 3\3? holy fucksickle. have you watched BW? What exactly in SC2 is in any way similar in power to muta and swarm? ugh muta in sc2 as well as fg and banelings are really good. are you real? Yes all those things exist in SC2. They are however but a shadow of their former selves.
Muta ling bling infestor would like to have a word with you!
|
On September 12 2010 18:48 Endorsed wrote:
I think he has like a 17-4 record in platinum with a bonus pool of around 400. He doesn't play that much.
And you think he plays on that account more than custom games? Jesus, the guy couldnt show his smurf account to anyone without beeing molested to death by newbies who wants to "have a word" with him.
|
On September 12 2010 18:58 TheComeback wrote:
I dont understand why Day[9] isnt commentating GSL instead of tasteless. Hes about 200x more knowledgeable on the subject...
Ok... But what does that have to do with anything in this thread? Do you even think it would be a worthwhile discussion considering Day9 doesn't live in South Korea?
|
Day9 simultaneously says that it's too early to talk about balance, and yet he says that Blizzard has to patch it and can deal with balances.
The fact that they're balancing it means that it wasn't balanced. Duh. I wish people would stop worshiping everything he says.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
