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On September 12 2010 19:06 Wolfpox wrote:
Day9 simultaneously says that it's too early to talk about balance, and yet he says that Blizzard has to patch it and can deal with balances.
The fact that they're balancing it means that it wasn't balanced. Duh. I wish people would stop worshiping everything he says.
You're such a wise man, we should listen to you instead. He's saying Blizzard can tweak the game, but us players shouldn't whine about it and we should instead try to get better at the game. 99% of the zergs whining are terrible, because the game is new and still developing.
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On September 12 2010 18:33 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 18:08 Vei wrote:
day9 needs to stop thinking tvz is balanced. it's a fucking fact of numbers, the # of openers T has thanks to their unit diversity vs the # of routes zerg has is simply retarded. it's something like 9 vs 14 combat units. More of this... Sure I can agree that zerg doesnt have the biggest set of units to work with, but that's not really a problem if shit works. BW is the best example in the book. Zerg has the SAME friggin "problems" in BW. You need to be good with managing your larvae, you need excellent scouting and Terran has a billion openings that they can do to mess with the zerg early/mid. Bunker rush, BBS, 4rax allin, fast vulture, 2starport Wraith, 14 CC, all the variants of a rax-CC opening that goes into 5rax play or 4fact goliath pushes and I dont know what... There are just so many things the zerg has to account for and if you produce too many drones at any point with the wrong information on your hand (or vice versa, make too many units) you will almost ALWAYS loose. Standard openings just doesnt appear because "that's how you do it" it's because it works as the best response to what MOST of what the opponent can throw at you, and will put you in a good position for the later stages of the game. PvT in BW is also another good example. Early in history, Terran had to account for many many diffrent openings which made the matchup very hard - suddenly terran discovered a ways to openen safely and get good eco/punish greedy tosses, which put them in good positions later on in the game. PvZ is also a good example. Toss dont have many openings to choose from and has to prepare for all the diffrent types of all-ins zerg can do. Lurkerdrops, doomdrops, hydra all in, ling all in, lurker ling busts and 2-hat muta (not as much all-in though..) and does all of this with almost 1 opening. Forge-FE. -- I think it's awesome that all these new SC2 players come here to post their opinions, but I'm getting abit sick of how they think shit is a "fact" when history tells you something totally diffrent. Let's just wait and see how clever people can adapt and do new and diffrent things and how diffrent patches and expansions will change gameplay, because I'm sure those will happen since tuning is needed for a game like this to keep growing and be as perfect as possible.
I think you are wrong. BW shouldn't be compared to SC2, not like this. Zerg is very different.
First of all, the attacks generally in BW come later then they do in SC2. One base play in BW is relatively easy to figure out since T doesen't have as many options that are viable.
And the answer to all of these openings is usually Mutalisks. Why does Jaedong go Mutalisk against T every game? Because it works every game. It doesen't matter what they do, if you get Mutalisks, you can combat against your opponent somehow. This isn't the case in SC2.
Also another thing: Sunkens. Sunkens are great at deflecting early attacks. Easy to make and don't need to ''comit'' to them till you see opponent moving out. You don't have the same luxury in SC2. Spine Crawlers suck, plain and simple. Immortals, Marauders wreck them. They take ages to build too.
In BW it's norm to build sunkens while teching to Mutas.
Maps majorly for Zerg too.
Zerg in BW can more or less always do the same BO and get away with it. 3 hatch muta or 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra. Find me one BO that you can do consistently in majority of your games against T in SC2, that takes you into midgame. You can't. Since there isn't one, and maybe one will be discovered in the future, but frankly, I have my doubts. Reason? Terran can vary their builds so much off 1 base. If they would start expanding and then doing these fancy pushes, it would be more simple, but that's not the case. They can do so many army compositions and if you meet them with the wrong one, it's GG. They can easily tech up too with little risk.
Marine Tank, Marine Hellion, Marine Marauder, pure Marines. Marauder Tank, Marauder Hellion, pure Marauders. Marine Banshee, Marine Thor, BIO with Medivacs. Banshees. Drops. Blue flame hellion marines, blue flame hellion marauders. Hellion drop. Etc etc etc etc. Most of these require different techs to deal with. And most importantly. >RIGHT COMPOSITION<. T always has the advantage when it comes to composition. Tech lair when hes going bio? GG.
T makes wall-in, makes Tech lab. You think: Marauders or reapers. Hes actually has 3 raxes making at some corner of his base and soon he will roll up your ramp with 20 marines with stim, and you were making lings into Mutalisks. Another GG.
And that's another thing: Tech labs. BW didn't have those, and they are incredibly good, since they allow T to do so many unit compositions without much commitment.
They can also execute these pushes while expanding and pumping SVCs.
Anyways, enough talk, I could probably go on about this for ever, but it would be useless. It's just stupid to compare SC2 to BW, they function differently alot. The concept is the same, but that's about it.
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On September 12 2010 19:03 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 18:48 Endorsed wrote:
I think he has like a 17-4 record in platinum with a bonus pool of around 400. He doesn't play that much. And you think he plays on that account more than custom games? Jesus, the guy couldnt show his smurf account to anyone without beeing molested to death by newbies who wants to "have a word" with him.
He actually doesn't have a smurf account. He said that in one of his daily's. In BW he never had a account named day9 actually.
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On September 12 2010 19:06 Wolfpox wrote:
Day9 simultaneously says that it's too early to talk about balance, and yet he says that Blizzard has to patch it and can deal with balances.
The fact that they're balancing it means that it wasn't balanced. Duh. I wish people would stop worshiping everything he says.
I wish people wouldnt pull shit out of their asses.
IF problems arrises they can fix it, and with two new expanions there are atleast two times where they Will either just make it more kickass or add something that will solve a problem. That's what he said.
The fact that they are TUNING the game is not a indication of imbalance, but rather blizzards way of opening up new ways of playing the game, making it MORE DYNAMIC. There is a big fucking diffrence here...
Maybe there is balance problems, that's not the fucking point. Regardless if it is or not, it's too early to talk of it in definite terms, since it's just fucking stupid... Which BW was a good example of.
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On September 12 2010 19:14 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 19:03 Kyuki wrote:On September 12 2010 18:48 Endorsed wrote:
I think he has like a 17-4 record in platinum with a bonus pool of around 400. He doesn't play that much. And you think he plays on that account more than custom games? Jesus, the guy couldnt show his smurf account to anyone without beeing molested to death by newbies who wants to "have a word" with him. He actually doesn't have a smurf account. He said that in one of his daily's. In BW he never had a account named day9 actually.
He said he has a smurf account in his last daily as he prefers to just ladder and not have anything 'social' interrupting that when he does have time for laddering. I think it was in the last daily.
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On September 12 2010 16:43 Sfydjklm wrote:
how can zergs start winning once they figure out how to open safely if zerg 200/200 is inferior to every other race by a large margin?
Let me put it this way...
As a Zerg player, if I hit 200/200, I win. There is absolutely no question about it.
If it gets to that point in the game, there is no doubt that I will win the game.
If there are Zerg players hitting 200/200 and not winning, then they're building the wrong units and/or not getting the proper upgrades.
200/200 for Zerg is late game fyi. I will personally never have 200 supply worth of overlords without having gotten to the point where I COULD build Ultralisks and Broodlords. I would also VERY likely have at least 2 expansions by that time, possibly 3 or 4. (Not that I would be mining from every base, likely only 3 bases).
So assuming my first mix of units at 200/200 doesn't work, I could easily hit 200/200 again very quickly with a different mix. At that point in the game I could adapt far quicker to what any Terran or Protoss player is doing than they could adapt to what I'm doing.
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God damn SirScoots with that vuvuzela. :D
Thanks for the interview, day9 knows how to answer to these questions!
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On September 12 2010 19:11 NonFactor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 18:33 Kyuki wrote:On September 12 2010 18:08 Vei wrote:
day9 needs to stop thinking tvz is balanced. it's a fucking fact of numbers, the # of openers T has thanks to their unit diversity vs the # of routes zerg has is simply retarded. it's something like 9 vs 14 combat units. More of this... Sure I can agree that zerg doesnt have the biggest set of units to work with, but that's not really a problem if shit works. BW is the best example in the book. Zerg has the SAME friggin "problems" in BW. You need to be good with managing your larvae, you need excellent scouting and Terran has a billion openings that they can do to mess with the zerg early/mid. Bunker rush, BBS, 4rax allin, fast vulture, 2starport Wraith, 14 CC, all the variants of a rax-CC opening that goes into 5rax play or 4fact goliath pushes and I dont know what... There are just so many things the zerg has to account for and if you produce too many drones at any point with the wrong information on your hand (or vice versa, make too many units) you will almost ALWAYS loose. Standard openings just doesnt appear because "that's how you do it" it's because it works as the best response to what MOST of what the opponent can throw at you, and will put you in a good position for the later stages of the game. PvT in BW is also another good example. Early in history, Terran had to account for many many diffrent openings which made the matchup very hard - suddenly terran discovered a ways to openen safely and get good eco/punish greedy tosses, which put them in good positions later on in the game. PvZ is also a good example. Toss dont have many openings to choose from and has to prepare for all the diffrent types of all-ins zerg can do. Lurkerdrops, doomdrops, hydra all in, ling all in, lurker ling busts and 2-hat muta (not as much all-in though..) and does all of this with almost 1 opening. Forge-FE. -- I think it's awesome that all these new SC2 players come here to post their opinions, but I'm getting abit sick of how they think shit is a "fact" when history tells you something totally diffrent. Let's just wait and see how clever people can adapt and do new and diffrent things and how diffrent patches and expansions will change gameplay, because I'm sure those will happen since tuning is needed for a game like this to keep growing and be as perfect as possible. I think you are wrong. BW shouldn't be compared to SC2, not like this. Zerg is very different. First of all, the attacks generally in BW come later then they do in SC2. One base play in BW is relatively easy to figure out since T doesen't have as many options that are viable. And the answer to all of these openings is usually Mutalisks. Why does Jaedong go Mutalisk against T every game? Because it works every game. It doesen't matter what they do, if you get Mutalisks, you can combat against your opponent somehow. This isn't the case in SC2. Also another thing: Sunkens. Sunkens are great at deflecting early attacks. Easy to make and don't need to ''comit'' to them till you see opponent moving out. You don't have the same luxury in SC2. Spine Crawlers suck, plain and simple. Immortals, Marauders wreck them. They take ages to build too. In BW it's norm to build sunkens while teching to Mutas. Maps majorly for Zerg too. Zerg in BW can more or less always do the same BO and get away with it. 3 hatch muta or 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra. Find me one BO that you can do consistently in majority of your games against T in SC2, that takes you into midgame. You can't. Since there isn't one, and maybe one will be discovered in the future, but frankly, I have my doubts. Reason? Terran can vary their builds so much off 1 base. If they would start expanding and then doing these fancy pushes, it would be more simple, but that's not the case. They can do so many army compositions and if you meet them with the wrong one, it's GG. They can easily tech up too with little risk. Marine Tank, Marine Hellion, Marine Marauder, pure Marines. Marauder Tank, Marauder Hellion, pure Marauders. Marine Banshee, Marine Thor, BIO with Medivacs. Banshees. Drops. Blue flame hellion marines, blue flame hellion marauders. Hellion drop. Etc etc etc etc. Most of these require different techs to deal with. And most importantly. >RIGHT COMPOSITION<. T always has the advantage when it comes to composition. Tech lair when hes going bio? GG. T makes wall-in, makes Tech lab. You think: Marauders or reapers. Hes actually has 3 raxes making at some corner of his base and soon he will roll up your ramp with 20 marines with stim, and you were making lings into Mutalisks. Another GG. And that's another thing: Tech labs. BW didn't have those, and they are incredibly good, since they allow T to do so many unit compositions without much commitment. They can also execute these pushes while expanding and pumping SVCs. Anyways, enough talk, I could probably go on about this for ever, but it would be useless. It's just stupid to compare SC2 to BW, they function differently alot. The concept is the same, but that's about it.
Another confused person. If you were around when 1-basing was the only thing that players did in BW for several years you'd know. This evolution however will be alot faster in SC2 due to how we already have the history of BW and ways to "see" what could be working or not.
How many times have jaedong lost when he did what was the most standard thing in the world; 2-hat muta to a early MM bust? Alot of times... And why is that? because it's a VERY thin line to walk when it comes to larvae management. If he makes too many lings, the mutas will do no dmg and he'll be put behind in the midgame. If he makes to few lings he might straight up die. Either case is bad. What makes mutalisks work is not the unit per se, but how it contains the terran and allow for droning which is needed to keep up economywise etc etc.
The problem is how you friggin get there in the best possible way without dying, and there are a ton of ways for terran to kill you before mutas pop if you're bad at managing your larvae.
This same thing goes for Zerg today in SC2, hatcheries still spawn larvae, queens are cheaper hatcheries, but you still make workers out of your combat unit building. You can go Muta every game vs T and it still contains the terran from moving out and force turrets etc, WHEN THEY ARE ON THE FIELD. The problem is STILL how you get to them, and there is where people are still learning.
How many drones can I get away with? Do I need a sunken? Do I need queen(s)? Lings? Roaches?
No one is saying that terran armies are not strong and versetile. They are, but the problem is not the midgame when both zerg and terran are "in it" it is how to move on from the earlygame, and that is currently a problem for zergs - but it was the SAME in BW.
Sure it's two diffrent games, but that doesnt mean you cant learn from the other game and understand that EVERYTHING isnt figured out yet.
T_T
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"BAM I answered the shit out of that question"
hilarious haha
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such an awesome interview.. i love day9 so much.. great interviewer too lol
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On September 12 2010 19:15 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 19:06 Wolfpox wrote:
Day9 simultaneously says that it's too early to talk about balance, and yet he says that Blizzard has to patch it and can deal with balances.
The fact that they're balancing it means that it wasn't balanced. Duh. I wish people would stop worshiping everything he says. I wish people wouldnt pull shit out of their asses. IF problems arrises they can fix it, and with two new expanions there are atleast two times where they Will either just make it more kickass or add something that will solve a problem. That's what he said. The fact that they are TUNING the game is not a indication of imbalance, but rather blizzards way of opening up new ways of playing the game, making it MORE DYNAMIC. There is a big fucking diffrence here... Maybe there is balance problems, that's not the fucking point. Regardless if it is or not, it's too early to talk of it in definite terms, since it's just fucking stupid... Which BW was a good example of.
"Tuning"? Holy shit, what kind of public relations spin talk is that supposed to be? Are you getting paid to pretend like this game is balanced or something?
Here's what BLIZZARD THEMSELVES SAY
Chris Sigaty: Well, we're definitely going to patch. I think that's one of the things that is part of Blizzard's magic, is we continue to support the game for a long time. Obviously, we have expansions coming out, along the way, we'll be releasing patches. Some will have features in them, some will only address balance, they'll ebb and flow as far as how big they are. We have something planned probably a month or two out already with some minor features being added in there, just tweaks to things. There will also, I'm sure, be some balance reaction in there.
Dustin Browder: Yeah, absolutely. In terms of balance, we'll do whatever is necessary at the time. Obviously, we're going to continue to be as cautious as we dare, where we want make sure the community has had the chance to play with new stuff, and they get a chance to play with it, and that they are, in fact, identifying a problem for us correctly. But, the minute we know a problem is real, you know that we're convinced that it's got to be changed, we're going to try to get a patch out there as soon as is humanly possible because we don't want people playing with stuff that we know is broken. It drives us crazy as much as it does the guys playing it because we're playing with you guys every night too.
So don't give me this, "Dude, man, they're just like, tuning it to make it EVEN MORE PLUS TIMES AWESOMER dude, there's not actually any problems at all man... it's like just all in your head and stuff." Because everybody with a brain knows that this game needs a lot of work before it will be balanced. It may not be beta, but the multiplayer won't be balanced for YEARS, after all the expansions are out.
Is it close to being balanced? I'd say about 80%. But let's drop the bullshit and get real. I love SC2 and I love Day[9], but that kid is completely lying if he doesn't admit that the game is imbalanced. It's not too early to tell, and it's not hard to see. What, a month ago was beta and everything was up for grabs, and now suddenly it's all sacred cows? Fuck that. We're still in beta as far as I'm concerned. Blizzard didn't have a "It's done when it's done" policy on this game, they just put it out at the deadline and promised to keep balancing it. And they will balance it eventually.
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These Idra fan boys who claim Idra would never say anything anything is balanced or imbalanced if it wasn't seem to forget in the beta he claimed roaches were fine and was pissed about the roach nerf.
Yes, he now admits that roaches were too OP and did need some type of nerfing, but at the time he complained because his favourite unit compo, roach hydra, was being nerfed.
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On September 12 2010 19:31 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 19:11 NonFactor wrote:On September 12 2010 18:33 Kyuki wrote:On September 12 2010 18:08 Vei wrote:
day9 needs to stop thinking tvz is balanced. it's a fucking fact of numbers, the # of openers T has thanks to their unit diversity vs the # of routes zerg has is simply retarded. it's something like 9 vs 14 combat units. More of this... Sure I can agree that zerg doesnt have the biggest set of units to work with, but that's not really a problem if shit works. BW is the best example in the book. Zerg has the SAME friggin "problems" in BW. You need to be good with managing your larvae, you need excellent scouting and Terran has a billion openings that they can do to mess with the zerg early/mid. Bunker rush, BBS, 4rax allin, fast vulture, 2starport Wraith, 14 CC, all the variants of a rax-CC opening that goes into 5rax play or 4fact goliath pushes and I dont know what... There are just so many things the zerg has to account for and if you produce too many drones at any point with the wrong information on your hand (or vice versa, make too many units) you will almost ALWAYS loose. Standard openings just doesnt appear because "that's how you do it" it's because it works as the best response to what MOST of what the opponent can throw at you, and will put you in a good position for the later stages of the game. PvT in BW is also another good example. Early in history, Terran had to account for many many diffrent openings which made the matchup very hard - suddenly terran discovered a ways to openen safely and get good eco/punish greedy tosses, which put them in good positions later on in the game. PvZ is also a good example. Toss dont have many openings to choose from and has to prepare for all the diffrent types of all-ins zerg can do. Lurkerdrops, doomdrops, hydra all in, ling all in, lurker ling busts and 2-hat muta (not as much all-in though..) and does all of this with almost 1 opening. Forge-FE. -- I think it's awesome that all these new SC2 players come here to post their opinions, but I'm getting abit sick of how they think shit is a "fact" when history tells you something totally diffrent. Let's just wait and see how clever people can adapt and do new and diffrent things and how diffrent patches and expansions will change gameplay, because I'm sure those will happen since tuning is needed for a game like this to keep growing and be as perfect as possible. I think you are wrong. BW shouldn't be compared to SC2, not like this. Zerg is very different. First of all, the attacks generally in BW come later then they do in SC2. One base play in BW is relatively easy to figure out since T doesen't have as many options that are viable. And the answer to all of these openings is usually Mutalisks. Why does Jaedong go Mutalisk against T every game? Because it works every game. It doesen't matter what they do, if you get Mutalisks, you can combat against your opponent somehow. This isn't the case in SC2. Also another thing: Sunkens. Sunkens are great at deflecting early attacks. Easy to make and don't need to ''comit'' to them till you see opponent moving out. You don't have the same luxury in SC2. Spine Crawlers suck, plain and simple. Immortals, Marauders wreck them. They take ages to build too. In BW it's norm to build sunkens while teching to Mutas. Maps majorly for Zerg too. Zerg in BW can more or less always do the same BO and get away with it. 3 hatch muta or 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra. Find me one BO that you can do consistently in majority of your games against T in SC2, that takes you into midgame. You can't. Since there isn't one, and maybe one will be discovered in the future, but frankly, I have my doubts. Reason? Terran can vary their builds so much off 1 base. If they would start expanding and then doing these fancy pushes, it would be more simple, but that's not the case. They can do so many army compositions and if you meet them with the wrong one, it's GG. They can easily tech up too with little risk. Marine Tank, Marine Hellion, Marine Marauder, pure Marines. Marauder Tank, Marauder Hellion, pure Marauders. Marine Banshee, Marine Thor, BIO with Medivacs. Banshees. Drops. Blue flame hellion marines, blue flame hellion marauders. Hellion drop. Etc etc etc etc. Most of these require different techs to deal with. And most importantly. >RIGHT COMPOSITION<. T always has the advantage when it comes to composition. Tech lair when hes going bio? GG. T makes wall-in, makes Tech lab. You think: Marauders or reapers. Hes actually has 3 raxes making at some corner of his base and soon he will roll up your ramp with 20 marines with stim, and you were making lings into Mutalisks. Another GG. And that's another thing: Tech labs. BW didn't have those, and they are incredibly good, since they allow T to do so many unit compositions without much commitment. They can also execute these pushes while expanding and pumping SVCs. Anyways, enough talk, I could probably go on about this for ever, but it would be useless. It's just stupid to compare SC2 to BW, they function differently alot. The concept is the same, but that's about it. Another confused person. If you were around when 1-basing was the only thing that players did in BW for several years you'd know. This evolution however will be alot faster in SC2 due to how we already have the history of BW and ways to "see" what could be working or not. How many times have jaedong lost when he did what was the most standard thing in the world; 2-hat muta to a early MM bust? Alot of times... And why is that? because it's a VERY thin line to walk when it comes to larvae management. If he makes too many lings, the mutas will do no dmg and he'll be put behind in the midgame. If he makes to few lings he might straight up die. Either case is bad. What makes mutalisks work is not the unit per se, but how it contains the terran and allow for droning which is needed to keep up economywise etc etc. The problem is how you friggin get there in the best possible way without dying, and there are a ton of ways for terran to kill you before mutas pop if you're bad at managing your larvae. This same thing goes for Zerg today in SC2, hatcheries still spawn larvae, queens are cheaper hatcheries, but you still make workers out of your combat unit building. You can go Muta every game vs T and it still contains the terran from moving out and force turrets etc, WHEN THEY ARE ON THE FIELD. The problem is STILL how you get to them, and there is where people are still learning. How many drones can I get away with? Do I need a sunken? Do I need queen(s)? Lings? Roaches? No one is saying that terran armies are not strong and versetile. They are, but the problem is not the midgame when both zerg and terran are "in it" it is how to move on from the earlygame, and that is currently a problem for zergs - but it was the SAME in BW. Sure it's two diffrent games, but that doesnt mean you cant learn from the other game and understand that EVERYTHING isnt figured out yet. T_T
QFT.
Just want to add that one-base play is an effect of the players not having figured out solid openings yet and the maps being fucking retarded. In the future we will move away from one base play and players such as:
On September 12 2010 19:27 Snippa- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 16:43 Sfydjklm wrote:
how can zergs start winning once they figure out how to open safely if zerg 200/200 is inferior to every other race by a large margin?
Let me put it this way... As a Zerg player, if I hit 200/200, I win. There is absolutely no question about it. If it gets to that point in the game, there is no doubt that I will win the game. If there are Zerg players hitting 200/200 and not winning, then they're building the wrong units and/or not getting the proper upgrades. 200/200 for Zerg is late game fyi. I will personally never have 200 supply worth of overlords without having gotten to the point where I COULD build Ultralisks and Broodlords. I would also VERY likely have at least 2 expansions by that time, possibly 3 or 4. (Not that I would be mining from every base, likely only 3 bases). So assuming my first mix of units at 200/200 doesn't work, I could easily hit 200/200 again very quickly with a different mix. At that point in the game I could adapt far quicker to what any Terran or Protoss player is doing than they could adapt to what I'm doing.
Will never be able to win a game again. Seriously, getting to 200/200 while mining of two bases and calling that good? Had this been BW or "SC2 from 3 years in the future" having two mining bases at the point where you are 200/200 would mean that you have a bad economy.
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nice answer by day9 thanks for the interview.
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Is it close to being balanced? I'd say about 80%. But let's drop the bullshit and get real. I love SC2 and I love Day[9], but that kid is completely lying if he doesn't admit that the game is imbalanced. It's not too early to tell, and it's not hard to see. What, a month ago was beta and everything was up for grabs, and now suddenly it's all sacred cows? Fuck that. We're still in beta as far as I'm concerned. Blizzard didn't have a "It's done when it's done" policy on this game, they just put it out at the deadline and promised to keep balancing it. And they will balance it eventually.
The only thing day9 is saying that it's too early to say if the game is imbalanced or not. Mech was nearly unstoppable before zergs found out the magic box trick.
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On September 12 2010 19:45 Wolfpox wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 19:15 Kyuki wrote:On September 12 2010 19:06 Wolfpox wrote:
Day9 simultaneously says that it's too early to talk about balance, and yet he says that Blizzard has to patch it and can deal with balances.
The fact that they're balancing it means that it wasn't balanced. Duh. I wish people would stop worshiping everything he says. I wish people wouldnt pull shit out of their asses. IF problems arrises they can fix it, and with two new expanions there are atleast two times where they Will either just make it more kickass or add something that will solve a problem. That's what he said. The fact that they are TUNING the game is not a indication of imbalance, but rather blizzards way of opening up new ways of playing the game, making it MORE DYNAMIC. There is a big fucking diffrence here... Maybe there is balance problems, that's not the fucking point. Regardless if it is or not, it's too early to talk of it in definite terms, since it's just fucking stupid... Which BW was a good example of. "Tuning"? Holy shit, what kind of public relations spin talk is that supposed to be? Are you getting paid to pretend like this game is balanced or something? Here's what BLIZZARD THEMSELVES SAYShow nested quote +Chris Sigaty: Well, we're definitely going to patch. I think that's one of the things that is part of Blizzard's magic, is we continue to support the game for a long time. Obviously, we have expansions coming out, along the way, we'll be releasing patches. Some will have features in them, some will only address balance, they'll ebb and flow as far as how big they are. We have something planned probably a month or two out already with some minor features being added in there, just tweaks to things. There will also, I'm sure, be some balance reaction in there. Show nested quote +
Dustin Browder: Yeah, absolutely. In terms of balance, we'll do whatever is necessary at the time. Obviously, we're going to continue to be as cautious as we dare, where we want make sure the community has had the chance to play with new stuff, and they get a chance to play with it, and that they are, in fact, identifying a problem for us correctly. But, the minute we know a problem is real, you know that we're convinced that it's got to be changed, we're going to try to get a patch out there as soon as is humanly possible because we don't want people playing with stuff that we know is broken. It drives us crazy as much as it does the guys playing it because we're playing with you guys every night too.
So don't give me this, "Dude, man, they're just like, tuning it to make it EVEN MORE PLUS TIMES AWESOMER dude, there's not actually any problems at all man... it's like just all in your head and stuff." Because everybody with a brain knows that this game needs a lot of work before it will be balanced. It may not be beta, but the multiplayer won't be balanced for YEARS, after all the expansions are out. Is it close to being balanced? I'd say about 80%. But let's drop the bullshit and get real. I love SC2 and I love Day[9], but that kid is completely lying if he doesn't admit that the game is imbalanced. It's not too early to tell, and it's not hard to see. What, a month ago was beta and everything was up for grabs, and now suddenly it's all sacred cows? Fuck that. We're still in beta as far as I'm concerned. Blizzard didn't have a "It's done when it's done" policy on this game, they just put it out at the deadline and promised to keep balancing it. And they will balance it eventually.
T_T
I never said there are no problems - I never said that they are just "tuning to make the game more awesomeErr!" I said that tuning and balancing are not the same thing, and that both needs to be done for this game to progress, but balance is very hard since shit cant be figured out too fast - we can talk metagame and what not when it comes to balance, but usually it comes with how X is effective against Y, and the player who uses Y doesnt change much in order to combat X and thus calling X imbalanced.
Again, maybe there are some small obvious imbalances that make unit X too strong against too many things, and maybe we havent even seen the most blunt imbalance yet? Who knows and who gives a shit, right now people need to learn how to adapt more and fight their problems instead of screaming imba all the time - that's my issue.
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On September 12 2010 19:51 Stenstyren wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 19:31 Kyuki wrote:On September 12 2010 19:11 NonFactor wrote:On September 12 2010 18:33 Kyuki wrote:On September 12 2010 18:08 Vei wrote:
day9 needs to stop thinking tvz is balanced. it's a fucking fact of numbers, the # of openers T has thanks to their unit diversity vs the # of routes zerg has is simply retarded. it's something like 9 vs 14 combat units. More of this... Sure I can agree that zerg doesnt have the biggest set of units to work with, but that's not really a problem if shit works. BW is the best example in the book. Zerg has the SAME friggin "problems" in BW. You need to be good with managing your larvae, you need excellent scouting and Terran has a billion openings that they can do to mess with the zerg early/mid. Bunker rush, BBS, 4rax allin, fast vulture, 2starport Wraith, 14 CC, all the variants of a rax-CC opening that goes into 5rax play or 4fact goliath pushes and I dont know what... There are just so many things the zerg has to account for and if you produce too many drones at any point with the wrong information on your hand (or vice versa, make too many units) you will almost ALWAYS loose. Standard openings just doesnt appear because "that's how you do it" it's because it works as the best response to what MOST of what the opponent can throw at you, and will put you in a good position for the later stages of the game. PvT in BW is also another good example. Early in history, Terran had to account for many many diffrent openings which made the matchup very hard - suddenly terran discovered a ways to openen safely and get good eco/punish greedy tosses, which put them in good positions later on in the game. PvZ is also a good example. Toss dont have many openings to choose from and has to prepare for all the diffrent types of all-ins zerg can do. Lurkerdrops, doomdrops, hydra all in, ling all in, lurker ling busts and 2-hat muta (not as much all-in though..) and does all of this with almost 1 opening. Forge-FE. -- I think it's awesome that all these new SC2 players come here to post their opinions, but I'm getting abit sick of how they think shit is a "fact" when history tells you something totally diffrent. Let's just wait and see how clever people can adapt and do new and diffrent things and how diffrent patches and expansions will change gameplay, because I'm sure those will happen since tuning is needed for a game like this to keep growing and be as perfect as possible. I think you are wrong. BW shouldn't be compared to SC2, not like this. Zerg is very different. First of all, the attacks generally in BW come later then they do in SC2. One base play in BW is relatively easy to figure out since T doesen't have as many options that are viable. And the answer to all of these openings is usually Mutalisks. Why does Jaedong go Mutalisk against T every game? Because it works every game. It doesen't matter what they do, if you get Mutalisks, you can combat against your opponent somehow. This isn't the case in SC2. Also another thing: Sunkens. Sunkens are great at deflecting early attacks. Easy to make and don't need to ''comit'' to them till you see opponent moving out. You don't have the same luxury in SC2. Spine Crawlers suck, plain and simple. Immortals, Marauders wreck them. They take ages to build too. In BW it's norm to build sunkens while teching to Mutas. Maps majorly for Zerg too. Zerg in BW can more or less always do the same BO and get away with it. 3 hatch muta or 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra. Find me one BO that you can do consistently in majority of your games against T in SC2, that takes you into midgame. You can't. Since there isn't one, and maybe one will be discovered in the future, but frankly, I have my doubts. Reason? Terran can vary their builds so much off 1 base. If they would start expanding and then doing these fancy pushes, it would be more simple, but that's not the case. They can do so many army compositions and if you meet them with the wrong one, it's GG. They can easily tech up too with little risk. Marine Tank, Marine Hellion, Marine Marauder, pure Marines. Marauder Tank, Marauder Hellion, pure Marauders. Marine Banshee, Marine Thor, BIO with Medivacs. Banshees. Drops. Blue flame hellion marines, blue flame hellion marauders. Hellion drop. Etc etc etc etc. Most of these require different techs to deal with. And most importantly. >RIGHT COMPOSITION<. T always has the advantage when it comes to composition. Tech lair when hes going bio? GG. T makes wall-in, makes Tech lab. You think: Marauders or reapers. Hes actually has 3 raxes making at some corner of his base and soon he will roll up your ramp with 20 marines with stim, and you were making lings into Mutalisks. Another GG. And that's another thing: Tech labs. BW didn't have those, and they are incredibly good, since they allow T to do so many unit compositions without much commitment. They can also execute these pushes while expanding and pumping SVCs. Anyways, enough talk, I could probably go on about this for ever, but it would be useless. It's just stupid to compare SC2 to BW, they function differently alot. The concept is the same, but that's about it. Another confused person. If you were around when 1-basing was the only thing that players did in BW for several years you'd know. This evolution however will be alot faster in SC2 due to how we already have the history of BW and ways to "see" what could be working or not. How many times have jaedong lost when he did what was the most standard thing in the world; 2-hat muta to a early MM bust? Alot of times... And why is that? because it's a VERY thin line to walk when it comes to larvae management. If he makes too many lings, the mutas will do no dmg and he'll be put behind in the midgame. If he makes to few lings he might straight up die. Either case is bad. What makes mutalisks work is not the unit per se, but how it contains the terran and allow for droning which is needed to keep up economywise etc etc. The problem is how you friggin get there in the best possible way without dying, and there are a ton of ways for terran to kill you before mutas pop if you're bad at managing your larvae. This same thing goes for Zerg today in SC2, hatcheries still spawn larvae, queens are cheaper hatcheries, but you still make workers out of your combat unit building. You can go Muta every game vs T and it still contains the terran from moving out and force turrets etc, WHEN THEY ARE ON THE FIELD. The problem is STILL how you get to them, and there is where people are still learning. How many drones can I get away with? Do I need a sunken? Do I need queen(s)? Lings? Roaches? No one is saying that terran armies are not strong and versetile. They are, but the problem is not the midgame when both zerg and terran are "in it" it is how to move on from the earlygame, and that is currently a problem for zergs - but it was the SAME in BW. Sure it's two diffrent games, but that doesnt mean you cant learn from the other game and understand that EVERYTHING isnt figured out yet. T_T QFT. Just want to add that one-base play is an effect of the players not having figured out solid openings yet and the maps being fucking retarded. In the future we will move away from one base play and players such as: Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 19:27 Snippa- wrote:On September 12 2010 16:43 Sfydjklm wrote:
how can zergs start winning once they figure out how to open safely if zerg 200/200 is inferior to every other race by a large margin?
Let me put it this way... As a Zerg player, if I hit 200/200, I win. There is absolutely no question about it. If it gets to that point in the game, there is no doubt that I will win the game. If there are Zerg players hitting 200/200 and not winning, then they're building the wrong units and/or not getting the proper upgrades. 200/200 for Zerg is late game fyi. I will personally never have 200 supply worth of overlords without having gotten to the point where I COULD build Ultralisks and Broodlords. I would also VERY likely have at least 2 expansions by that time, possibly 3 or 4. (Not that I would be mining from every base, likely only 3 bases). So assuming my first mix of units at 200/200 doesn't work, I could easily hit 200/200 again very quickly with a different mix. At that point in the game I could adapt far quicker to what any Terran or Protoss player is doing than they could adapt to what I'm doing. Will never be able to win a game again. Seriously, getting to 200/200 while mining of two bases and calling that good? Had this been BW or "SC2 from 3 years in the future" having two mining bases at the point where you are 200/200 would mean that you have a bad economy.
I was going to say something about that, but I'm not a dedicated zerg player so I didn't want to judge, but each time I've hit 200/200 it's been off 4 or 5 base. I can't imagine a scenario where I would have enough larvae to hit 200/200 off 2 or 3 and not have had the time to expand to 4/5 base.
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On September 12 2010 19:31 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2010 19:11 NonFactor wrote:On September 12 2010 18:33 Kyuki wrote:On September 12 2010 18:08 Vei wrote:
day9 needs to stop thinking tvz is balanced. it's a fucking fact of numbers, the # of openers T has thanks to their unit diversity vs the # of routes zerg has is simply retarded. it's something like 9 vs 14 combat units. More of this... Sure I can agree that zerg doesnt have the biggest set of units to work with, but that's not really a problem if shit works. BW is the best example in the book. Zerg has the SAME friggin "problems" in BW. You need to be good with managing your larvae, you need excellent scouting and Terran has a billion openings that they can do to mess with the zerg early/mid. Bunker rush, BBS, 4rax allin, fast vulture, 2starport Wraith, 14 CC, all the variants of a rax-CC opening that goes into 5rax play or 4fact goliath pushes and I dont know what... There are just so many things the zerg has to account for and if you produce too many drones at any point with the wrong information on your hand (or vice versa, make too many units) you will almost ALWAYS loose. Standard openings just doesnt appear because "that's how you do it" it's because it works as the best response to what MOST of what the opponent can throw at you, and will put you in a good position for the later stages of the game. PvT in BW is also another good example. Early in history, Terran had to account for many many diffrent openings which made the matchup very hard - suddenly terran discovered a ways to openen safely and get good eco/punish greedy tosses, which put them in good positions later on in the game. PvZ is also a good example. Toss dont have many openings to choose from and has to prepare for all the diffrent types of all-ins zerg can do. Lurkerdrops, doomdrops, hydra all in, ling all in, lurker ling busts and 2-hat muta (not as much all-in though..) and does all of this with almost 1 opening. Forge-FE. -- I think it's awesome that all these new SC2 players come here to post their opinions, but I'm getting abit sick of how they think shit is a "fact" when history tells you something totally diffrent. Let's just wait and see how clever people can adapt and do new and diffrent things and how diffrent patches and expansions will change gameplay, because I'm sure those will happen since tuning is needed for a game like this to keep growing and be as perfect as possible. I think you are wrong. BW shouldn't be compared to SC2, not like this. Zerg is very different. First of all, the attacks generally in BW come later then they do in SC2. One base play in BW is relatively easy to figure out since T doesen't have as many options that are viable. And the answer to all of these openings is usually Mutalisks. Why does Jaedong go Mutalisk against T every game? Because it works every game. It doesen't matter what they do, if you get Mutalisks, you can combat against your opponent somehow. This isn't the case in SC2. Also another thing: Sunkens. Sunkens are great at deflecting early attacks. Easy to make and don't need to ''comit'' to them till you see opponent moving out. You don't have the same luxury in SC2. Spine Crawlers suck, plain and simple. Immortals, Marauders wreck them. They take ages to build too. In BW it's norm to build sunkens while teching to Mutas. Maps majorly for Zerg too. Zerg in BW can more or less always do the same BO and get away with it. 3 hatch muta or 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra. Find me one BO that you can do consistently in majority of your games against T in SC2, that takes you into midgame. You can't. Since there isn't one, and maybe one will be discovered in the future, but frankly, I have my doubts. Reason? Terran can vary their builds so much off 1 base. If they would start expanding and then doing these fancy pushes, it would be more simple, but that's not the case. They can do so many army compositions and if you meet them with the wrong one, it's GG. They can easily tech up too with little risk. Marine Tank, Marine Hellion, Marine Marauder, pure Marines. Marauder Tank, Marauder Hellion, pure Marauders. Marine Banshee, Marine Thor, BIO with Medivacs. Banshees. Drops. Blue flame hellion marines, blue flame hellion marauders. Hellion drop. Etc etc etc etc. Most of these require different techs to deal with. And most importantly. >RIGHT COMPOSITION<. T always has the advantage when it comes to composition. Tech lair when hes going bio? GG. T makes wall-in, makes Tech lab. You think: Marauders or reapers. Hes actually has 3 raxes making at some corner of his base and soon he will roll up your ramp with 20 marines with stim, and you were making lings into Mutalisks. Another GG. And that's another thing: Tech labs. BW didn't have those, and they are incredibly good, since they allow T to do so many unit compositions without much commitment. They can also execute these pushes while expanding and pumping SVCs. Anyways, enough talk, I could probably go on about this for ever, but it would be useless. It's just stupid to compare SC2 to BW, they function differently alot. The concept is the same, but that's about it. Another confused person. If you were around when 1-basing was the only thing that players did in BW for several years you'd know. This evolution however will be alot faster in SC2 due to how we already have the history of BW and ways to "see" what could be working or not. How many times have jaedong lost when he did what was the most standard thing in the world; 2-hat muta to a early MM bust? Alot of times... And why is that? because it's a VERY thin line to walk when it comes to larvae management. If he makes too many lings, the mutas will do no dmg and he'll be put behind in the midgame. If he makes to few lings he might straight up die. Either case is bad. What makes mutalisks work is not the unit per se, but how it contains the terran and allow for droning which is needed to keep up economywise etc etc. The problem is how you friggin get there in the best possible way without dying, and there are a ton of ways for terran to kill you before mutas pop if you're bad at managing your larvae. This same thing goes for Zerg today in SC2, hatcheries still spawn larvae, queens are cheaper hatcheries, but you still make workers out of your combat unit building. You can go Muta every game vs T and it still contains the terran from moving out and force turrets etc, WHEN THEY ARE ON THE FIELD. The problem is STILL how you get to them, and there is where people are still learning. How many drones can I get away with? Do I need a sunken? Do I need queen(s)? Lings? Roaches? No one is saying that terran armies are not strong and versetile. They are, but the problem is not the midgame when both zerg and terran are "in it" it is how to move on from the earlygame, and that is currently a problem for zergs - but it was the SAME in BW. Sure it's two diffrent games, but that doesnt mean you cant learn from the other game and understand that EVERYTHING isnt figured out yet. T_T
Except I was here when 1 basing was still the norm. And I had that in mind when I wrote that post. Your the one who is confused here.
Like I said, the concept is the same, and YOU CAN learn from BW. But that doesen't mean you can apply everything in BW like you seem to imply. Your original post was more or less: ''T in BW also had many openings, but Z's in BW more or less have figured it out, why can't the same happen in SC2.'' You kinda answered this too:
SC2 evolves at MUCH faster rate then in BW, SC2 is already very figured out, even though people can't seem to admit this, new stuff will pop up for sure, but I'm quite sure there won't be any groundbreaking discoveries anymore. Numerous factors play to this. But you seem to lack understanding of the ZvT match up too. The problem here isn't only the openings, it's also the follows up. In BW, Terran couldn't follow up and composition switch like they do in SC2. A good example I already made was the Reaper > Marauder that T can do. Find me one BO or strategy in BW that is similiar. Again, you can't. The SPEED a Terran can change their compositions COMBINED with the fact that you have no idea what your opponent is gonna do, makes it very hard for Zerg to muster up a proper counter.
Yes, Jaedong has lost, but that isn't the point here. The point here is that if he gets to Mutalisks, he will usually have a fighting chance. The point here is that 2 hatch muta, 3 hatch muta are very viable strats that can be used in 90% of the games you play as Zerg. Again, find me one similiar strat in SC2. Again, you can't. Because there isn't one. And my guess is: there won't be one.
And I don't understand the way your thinking: If Jaedong goes 2 hatch Muta, and his opponent goes Sunken bust, does it mean it's autoloss? No. But in SC2, numerous things lead to an autoloss. So it's not the same thing. In SC2 if you expect Banshees and go Hydralisks and he comes with Bio or some other type of composition that doesen't involve Banshees, you usually lose instantly. How can you not understand this? And in BW you could often muster up panic defense. Try making panic Spine Crawlers in Steppes of War if you see suddenly a large force moving out and tell me how it goes. Try that in any map. Only map that might get them to finish in time is Desert Oasis but yeah...
Anyways, like said, comparing BW to SC2 is just stupid. They are different games. The concept of the game is the same. But get this through your head: The matchup isn't the same. New units, new buildings, new abilities change the match up, they change the game. They make new strategies viable. How can you not understand this?
Wasting my breath here I'm sure.
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This thread is about Sc2 balance now.
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On September 12 2010 20:15 DarkspearTribe wrote:
This thread is about Sc2 balance now.
Like every thread in TL. 
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EPT
