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On June 29 2012 16:35 Lavalamp799 wrote:
I just watched the section with Avilo, and I don't really understand what the whole hoopla is about. Avilo is not an all-star player, or even close to it. Avilo just seemed to be saying Terran cannot win right now, which is obviously not true. Idra has a lot more experience, and as much as he complains about balance, I think he made a lot better argument that Avilo did. They just shouldn't have brought him on in the first place though, but the chat wouldn't stop spamming. Call me back when Avilo wins something big and/or has the proper knowledge to debate balance.
Yeah.. I just watched it expecting all of them to be laughing at him to his face while Incontrol makes racial jokes toward him or something. Avilo was making really obnoxiously bad arguments at Idra just to try to piss Idra off. Idra refusing to give respect to that sort of behavior is the best thing he could do.
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On June 29 2012 16:43 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 16:35 Lavalamp799 wrote:
I just watched the section with Avilo, and I don't really understand what the whole hoopla is about. Avilo is not an all-star player, or even close to it. Avilo just seemed to be saying Terran cannot win right now, which is obviously not true. Idra has a lot more experience, and as much as he complains about balance, I think he made a lot better argument that Avilo did. They just shouldn't have brought him on in the first place though, but the chat wouldn't stop spamming. Call me back when Avilo wins something big and/or has the proper knowledge to debate balance. Yeah.. I just watched it expecting all of them to be laughing at him to his face while Incontrol makes racial jokes toward him or something. Avilo was making really obnoxiously bad arguments at Idra just to try to piss Idra off. Idra refusing to give respect to that sort of behavior is the best thing he could do.
Eh I would say that yes his arguments were bad but I think the rudeness was over the top and unnecessary. I'm a huge fan of everyone on SOTG and don't know Avilo from a hole in the ground but yah... I dislike it when people are rude for very little reason. Maybe he is a huge troll online and does and says stupid shit in their games against eachother but that doesn't mean you need to invite them on a show and act like that. Would have rather he either didn't go on or at the very least Idra didn't call him a terrible etc and then just cut his call off mid sentence.
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Interesting show as usual. I think the hosts could have been a little fairer to Avilo, when he jumped in the call. They seemed to show little respect for him, possibly because he isn't as exalted in the SC community as they are. I'm sure next time the gang will be a little more respectful to any guest that comes on.
Avilo didn't do great in getting his point across. I would recommend when you go into a hostile group where others are very familiar with each other, you try your best to be polite. This should defuse the situation a little. Being polite includes letting people talk, without interruption. I also wouldn’t confront someone with my first sentence.
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On June 29 2012 16:47 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 16:43 fraktoasters wrote:On June 29 2012 16:35 Lavalamp799 wrote:
I just watched the section with Avilo, and I don't really understand what the whole hoopla is about. Avilo is not an all-star player, or even close to it. Avilo just seemed to be saying Terran cannot win right now, which is obviously not true. Idra has a lot more experience, and as much as he complains about balance, I think he made a lot better argument that Avilo did. They just shouldn't have brought him on in the first place though, but the chat wouldn't stop spamming. Call me back when Avilo wins something big and/or has the proper knowledge to debate balance. Yeah.. I just watched it expecting all of them to be laughing at him to his face while Incontrol makes racial jokes toward him or something. Avilo was making really obnoxiously bad arguments at Idra just to try to piss Idra off. Idra refusing to give respect to that sort of behavior is the best thing he could do. Eh I would say that yes his arguments were bad but I think the rudeness was over the top and unnecessary. I'm a huge fan of everyone on SOTG and don't know Avilo from a hole in the ground but yah... I dislike it when people are rude for very little reason. Maybe he is a huge troll online and does and says stupid shit in their games against eachother but that doesn't mean you need to invite them on a show and act like that. Would have rather he either didn't go on or at the very least Idra didn't call him a terrible etc and then just cut his call off mid sentence.
Well Its Idra? Guess what is he known for =.=
Everybody knew the drama was coming knowing the bad history of Avilo and Idra.
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On June 29 2012 15:57 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 15:29 xOny wrote:
if there is any "fault", it's as much Avilo's as anyones. He got himself on the show, then proceeded to interupt IdrA with 1-liner balance complaints while IdrA talked about actual common in the pro-metagame scenarios. ofc IdrA is going to say, in essence, "I've had enough". JP only cut him off to avoid further tention caused by Avilo. I don't think the interrupting was the biggest issue here. I think Avilo did a very poor job of expressing his opinion and getting his point out, then I think IdrA also did a very bad job of responding to him. The interruptions were more a product of their mutual frustration than the cause. Substantively, what are they saying? Avilo's problem is that queens allow the zerg to ramp up an economy such that they can tech switch much faster than terran, allowing them to get the better late-game composition. This means the zerg composition will either overcome the terran or the zerg can fight the terran army and then switch the composition to one that counters it. It took him a few convoluted sentences to spit it out and then he erroneously made the point that zerg late game compositions are dependent on queens. Idra's response was that zerg late game compositions don't have lots of queens and that bad decisions lose games. I don't know what he was going to say, but I think the direct responses he should have pointed out are that zergs have gotten better at using infestors and terrans are supposed to harass the zerg late-game, slow-army economy (and winning terrans do this). Importantly, these two points (better infestor use, slacking terran harass) aren't based on the queen change. All this drama is a little too much though. This was hardly "disgusting" or "sickening", guys. C'mon, we're not outraged PTA moms writing to the local newspaper. A couple of guys debated and IdrA lost his patience, which he anticipated would happen before Avilo even came on.
This is a great summary of how I saw it also. No one is directly at fault, nor is it "disgusting" or "sickening." A lot is being blown out of proportion. Now I can't comment directly as to the legitimacy of people saying that the hosts, namely iNcontrol, JP and IdrA, have been berating/belittling/making fun of Avilo in past episodes, but if it is true I would think that maybe they should explain why they "laugh" at him (I put laugh in quotes as I don't know if it has actually happened in the past or not, I have yet to watch or listen to those as I have been without my computer for a month and a half). I believe it could resolve some of the other issues being brought up in this thread and maybe it's just a misunderstanding or we can settle it in an "agree to disagree" kind of way.
Not quite sure if that's all correct or well said, but it's 4am and I'm tired, I'll check it again tomorrow and see how badly I fucked this up if I did.
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On June 29 2012 16:47 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 16:43 fraktoasters wrote:On June 29 2012 16:35 Lavalamp799 wrote:
I just watched the section with Avilo, and I don't really understand what the whole hoopla is about. Avilo is not an all-star player, or even close to it. Avilo just seemed to be saying Terran cannot win right now, which is obviously not true. Idra has a lot more experience, and as much as he complains about balance, I think he made a lot better argument that Avilo did. They just shouldn't have brought him on in the first place though, but the chat wouldn't stop spamming. Call me back when Avilo wins something big and/or has the proper knowledge to debate balance. Yeah.. I just watched it expecting all of them to be laughing at him to his face while Incontrol makes racial jokes toward him or something. Avilo was making really obnoxiously bad arguments at Idra just to try to piss Idra off. Idra refusing to give respect to that sort of behavior is the best thing he could do. Eh I would say that yes his arguments were bad but I think the rudeness was over the top and unnecessary. I'm a huge fan of everyone on SOTG and don't know Avilo from a hole in the ground but yah... I dislike it when people are rude for very little reason. Maybe he is a huge troll online and does and says stupid shit in their games against eachother but that doesn't mean you need to invite them on a show and act like that. Would have rather he either didn't go on or at the very least Idra didn't call him a terrible etc and then just cut his call off mid sentence.
I don't see how it was over the top at all. Avilo initiated it.
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On June 29 2012 15:57 RodrigoX wrote:
#1 The 6queen build is greedy, to match, macro wise a 6queen build Terran needs to be equally greedy (3CC)
T-This may not work, because lets say both the Z and the T are equally greedy all the way to the lategame. They are equal in economy, however not equal in ability to tech switch. So while they are even in money mined etc, the terran whilst being equal in money cannot tech switch as easily as the Zerg, hence loses.
And you can prevent them from having the resources and time for massive tech switches with aggression.
See MKP vs DRG @ Cloud Kingdom from MLG Anaheim. 6 queen vs 3cc. No giant hive tech armies or massive tech switches due to aggression and good trades with marine tank medivac armies.
+ Show Spoiler +Yes DRG won but there were straight forward easy improvements for MKP like cleaning up the creep at his 4th with a marine + scan during his pushes or taking the 3oclock as his 4th instead which would've made more sense anyways as he was generally pushing down the southern lane. DRG could only really afford a high tech army after MKP's aggression had to stop because he didn't secure his 4th in time.
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On June 29 2012 16:35 Lavalamp799 wrote:
Avilo just seemed to be saying Terran cannot win right now, which is obviously not true.
Did Zergs win before stim nerf? Did Zergs win before bunker nerf? Did Zergs win before Blue Flame hellion nerf? Did Zergs win before Ghost snipe nerf?
avilo (and many, many others including top Koreans) saying the matchup is broken is not the same thing as saying Terrans cannot win. But congrats. You've won your very own strawman to love and cherish.
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On June 29 2012 16:56 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 16:47 mrtomjones wrote:On June 29 2012 16:43 fraktoasters wrote:On June 29 2012 16:35 Lavalamp799 wrote:
I just watched the section with Avilo, and I don't really understand what the whole hoopla is about. Avilo is not an all-star player, or even close to it. Avilo just seemed to be saying Terran cannot win right now, which is obviously not true. Idra has a lot more experience, and as much as he complains about balance, I think he made a lot better argument that Avilo did. They just shouldn't have brought him on in the first place though, but the chat wouldn't stop spamming. Call me back when Avilo wins something big and/or has the proper knowledge to debate balance. Yeah.. I just watched it expecting all of them to be laughing at him to his face while Incontrol makes racial jokes toward him or something. Avilo was making really obnoxiously bad arguments at Idra just to try to piss Idra off. Idra refusing to give respect to that sort of behavior is the best thing he could do. Eh I would say that yes his arguments were bad but I think the rudeness was over the top and unnecessary. I'm a huge fan of everyone on SOTG and don't know Avilo from a hole in the ground but yah... I dislike it when people are rude for very little reason. Maybe he is a huge troll online and does and says stupid shit in their games against eachother but that doesn't mean you need to invite them on a show and act like that. Would have rather he either didn't go on or at the very least Idra didn't call him a terrible etc and then just cut his call off mid sentence. I don't see how it was over the top at all. Avilo initiated it.
uhh other than being a slight provocation of claiming Idra agreed with him he didn't really go nearly as far as Idra did but meh. Just my thoughts. I don't know their history together as someone above stated they have so meh 
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On June 29 2012 16:32 dvorakftw wrote:
If his hellions run past queens concept gets popular it just means zerg will return to making one or at the most two spines
Which means 2 drones not mining for the duration of the period that they would have otherwise mined and 200 minerals for structures which probably won't be used. Which would be a win for the terran.
There was a GSTL tvz not long ago where the zerg had his queens trying to defend the third and the natural and the terran managed to get 14 drone kills between the main and the third. The zerg ended up winning despite that but it was because of poor choices by the terran later.
If state of the game were more serious, Avilo should never have been brought on. As it is, it doesn't matter but it was still cringe worthy. Avilo was disingenuous in his attempt to debate. He kept saying that he was in agreement with the points being made but he wasn't. He was agreeing with the conditions of the point. "If you don't slow down zerg macro" is not a point. Avilo kept trying to insinuate that Idra was categorically stating zerg cannot be slowed with the six queen build. Which was not the case.
The NASL Toronto vs Mississauga thing is more sadness than outrage. It is taking place in a convention centre a mile or so from the Toronto international airport, so NASL is within their right to call it Toronto. Mississauga is also usually classified as part of the GTA (Greater Toronto Area). That said, the area is not a great representation of Toronto by any means. It would have been awesome if NASL had been able to book/convert something downtown but financially and logistically that simply doesn't make sense. Where they booked it is close to the airport (good for players/staff/travelling fans), away from Toronto traffic (no delays), close to all assortment of cheap hotels etc. I'd highly recommend that the players take the opportunity to go into Toronto proper but lets be honest. They are there to play SC2. You could host an event on the moon and their takeaway could end up being that travel was a nightmare.
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Just finish watching the VODs, and I am actually quite disappionted at how the discussion went. Not in terms of the attitude / respect perspective but in term of how many objective detail information is provided.
In the earlier QXC Idra discussion, they actually completely skip the mid game which is the timing when zerg can get to full saturation number on 3 bases. In the early game discussion, both of them go through some potential solutions and give valid explanations but they are not back up by objective information( some might argue, but at most only a little bit). The hellion run by discussion did not address how many lings will be needed to stop the hellions if it actually happened. As a result, there is no way we can quantify the zerg economic trade off to be safe against the run by. They also did not address how long will that delay the third base of Terran, then we cannot find out the economin trade off on the Terran side too. Regarding the mid game, they skip the zerg's 3 bases saturation timing and they give no estimation on how long the Bio aggression that Idra suggested can delay the saturation timing. The 3 orbital discussion also did not address how ahead zerg will be if both race go completely passive. No timing provided, no worker count provided. We as a viewer have absolutely no idea how such a situation will turn out. In the late game discussion, the BC raven discussion, QXC fail to provide rough information on how cost efficient the engagement can be. If he does believe it is an efficient army composition, he can at least try use micro map to test the engagement out. It will be way more efficient than trying to incorporate the army into his build, and then optimizing it, and then finding out it is in fact not that efficient = =
In short, the earlier, more rational discussion have some good points and good suggestions in it. They make their points clear and allow each other to elaborate freely. On the negative side ( or what they can improve on = =), they did not provide any objective data or run any engagement simulations. Even if they cannot do so, they can at least provide tournament game examples and point out how the timing work out in different build. They are more of expressing what they feel than trying to push the understanding of the match up. They base their arguments upon belief that they did not verify. As viewers, why should we agree on what they say? Subjective opinions can hardly persuade anyone, if it is only an expression of thoughts, why should we have the discussion at all? How is it different from having the 2 guys write their own blog and put them together?
The later "discussion"(drama show maybe a better word) which involve Avilo is even worse. Thoughts are explained, and points are made but nothing can be gained from such a discussion. Both of them did not add much things new, and completely disagree on what the other think. They shot down each other's arguments based on subjective belief instead of objective fact (assuming Avilo actually understood Idra's point). Idra actively shut down the conversation even when Avilo try to extend it by finding common ground between Idra and his belief. Idra made up his mind beforehand and discredit Avilo words because of Avilo lack of accomplishments, never a good thing when you try to learn something new(post patch TvZ). He let his emotion over run his rationale and went into insult. Avilo twisted Idra words for his own use and did not provide sufficient explanations on why he disagreed. He is like "I disagree, but I am not gonna tell you why". Moreover, the host and everyone else just stay outside of the picture and let the conversation ran wide. They did not try to relax the atmosphere and JP kick Avilo off the show in a irrespectfully way. QXC can try to rationalize Avilo's words, so that the conversations are less emotional. JP can give some breaks or put up an advertisement to calm things down. Incontrol and Nony can make a joke or two to chill them out. And of course, the same problems from the earlier discussion persist.
The whole thing did not add anything worthy to the community but dramas. Idra and Avilo both solidify their image. If no objective facts/information can be provided, no common ground can be found, and both party cannot build their points upon it. This is the biggest problems of this sort of balance discussion. Those who support Avilo to be on the show is actually doing a disfavor for the communtiy. I pointed out the flaws in this episode and someone might find them offensive. I would just say they can work on those aspects if they plan for another balance discussion. The advice may be useful, or just ignore them if people do not want another balance discussion on the show. After all, State of the Game is not Imbalance (the show of Artosis) LOL, there is no need to have more worthless discussion on future shows.
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On June 29 2012 16:40 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 15:56 Odawg27 wrote:
Avilo came across as a bit confrontational, including with the "I'll say this without insulting you like you did to me", you don't say that without trying to make a point of it. So IdrA insults avilo and avilo makes it a bit confrontational? Have you considered a career in politics? I mean, that's professional high office level nonsense you have there.
dude we get it you don't like IdrA
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On June 29 2012 15:49 Le BucheRON wrote:Show nested quote +On June 29 2012 15:41 freakhill wrote:
Whatever you might think of Avilo, the hosts of this program failed to show basic courtesy and politeness. I find it quite vulgar and am quite disappointed in the way they conduct their affair. I am not interested in low quality entertainment. This is why NASA won't talk to the "moon landing was faked" nutjobs. It just gives them attention. It's sort of a lose-lose situation... unless you're Jerry Springer.
Couldn't agree more, the show would in fact be much better without Idra.
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I watched destiny explain it, and I think he did a good job with it.
His stream vod should be up by now on own3d.tv/destiny
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On June 29 2012 17:22 BurntTohst wrote:
Avilo kept trying to insinuate that Idra was categorically stating zerg cannot be slowed with the six queen build. Which was not the case.
Almost the first thing qxc said in the TvZ discussion is that there is no longer any early cost effective aggression for Terran and IdrA essentially agreed by saying Terrans have to either do 3CC or 2 base all-ins. The only legit talk from IdrA about Terran slowing down Zerg is from mid to start of late game attacks. The stuff about hellions dodging Queens is nonsense.
Your story about 14 lost drones is nice but three base Zerg replaces that faster than a Terran gets his next MULE. Managing that many worker kills will keep you even with zerg as long as you don't lose more than one Hellion.
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i don't really get what the problem was. They brought avilo on, which i don't think they should've done. Aside from that, The first thing avilo does is confront somebody as soon as he gets on the show. They bring him on to talk about the current state of TvZ. Not bitch about why he is always the butt of jokes. Its very similar to where IdrA is also that butt of jokes, because of how often he cries imbalance. But, he takes it personal.
Then IdrA lets avilo talk about the balance of TvZ, lets him finish. IdrA begins to talk and Avilo proceeds to interrupt him before he can finish his point. IdrA lets avilo continue to talk, IdrA then starts saying something, and Avilo says something about IdrA interrupting him. IdrA lets him finish. IdrA starts to talk again and avilo interrupts him in the middle of his point yet again, at which point IdrA says shut the fuck up. While it was wrong to say that, a simple can you let me finish would suffice, That is IdrA personality. One should expect this from IdrA. He was very patient up to that point with avilo. And while I think it was wrong for JP to cut avilo off, Its not the biggest thing in the world, Nor was it disgusting. And imo it doesnt make the show any less professional. Although I do not condone what IdrA did, I feel it was within his right to say what he did. Especially after avilo cutting off IdrA so many times.
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Ok.
This is going slightly off-topic from the whole Avilo and IdrA discussion and I'm not not hating on IdrA here in any way shape or form. I am a fan. Just stating what I feel is correct or what would of happened if it was someone else.
IdrA got warned for his post. Imagine if some random StarCraft II player in the community (me, you etc) wrote that. Wouldn't you expect them to be banned straight up regardless of the context? Or at least banned for a while. Again, not hating on IdrA.
Just sayin'
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While the whole situation was a bit unfortunate the only one I am annoyed by or have lost respect for in this newest drama bomb is the TL and reddit SC2 community, who once again manages to make a mountain out of a molehill, with some people even trying to turn it into another witch hunt, suggesting sponsors should be contacted over this. Why do people thrive on this kind of shit? Nothing happened, move on.
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Israel2209 Posts
On June 29 2012 19:00 Resi wrote:
IdrA got warned for his post. Imagine if some random StarCraft II player in the community (me, you etc) wrote that. Wouldn't you expect them to be banned straight up regardless of the context? Or at least banned for a while. Again, not hating on IdrA.
Yes, IdrA and other forum veterans receive "special treatment". Feel free to read item #6 here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17883
This is not the place to discuss it though, let's go back to talking about a pretty thought-provoking SotG episode!
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I thought TL would never become a second reddit, and that people would try to preserve what little intelligence existed here.
Clearly not.
IdrA was provoked by Avilo, and IdrA responded by doing what he does best, flat out telling people his opinion to shut them up. I don't see how people could fault IdrA here at all...
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EPT
