EPTOfficial State of the Game Podcast Thread - Page 2401
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Grim Hatter
Poland52 Posts
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howLiN
Portugal1676 Posts
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Roarer
Hong Kong124 Posts
On June 29 2012 20:09 4ZakeN87 wrote: Yeah the Avilo thing was bullshit in my mind. Okay maybe a bad idea for Avilo to walk into that, but that was pretty much a public ambush, not sure if there was anyway that could have gone well for Avilo. He made several good points and obviously they where similar to what QXC said before but they where still good and there was some new points in there to. Obviously terran can win TvZ late game, you would be an idiot to say otherwise, but that is not the point. The point it is that it is a lot harder for terran then it is for zerg. I do think Avilo did bring up a few valid points, but just that is not enough for a healthy balance discussion. I actually think both the 2 parties are not prepared enough to engage in a fruitful balance discussion. The biggest problem is that there is no objective fact provided, there is no common ground to build the discussion and evrything revolved around "I think / I feel/ I believe" instead of indisputable fact. I would shamelessly quote myself on this issue to explain what I mean in details : + Show Spoiler + On June 29 2012 17:27 Roarer wrote: Just finish watching the VODs, and I am actually quite disappionted at how the discussion went. Not in terms of the attitude / respect perspective but in term of how many objective detail information is provided. In the earlier QXC Idra discussion, they actually completely skip the mid game which is the timing when zerg can get to full saturation number on 3 bases. In the early game discussion, both of them go through some potential solutions and give valid explanations but they are not back up by objective information( some might argue, but at most only a little bit). The hellion run by discussion did not address how many lings will be needed to stop the hellions if it actually happened. As a result, there is no way we can quantify the zerg economic trade off to be safe against the run by. They also did not address how long will that delay the third base of Terran, then we cannot find out the economin trade off on the Terran side too. Regarding the mid game, they skip the zerg's 3 bases saturation timing and they give no estimation on how long the Bio aggression that Idra suggested can delay the saturation timing. The 3 orbital discussion also did not address how ahead zerg will be if both race go completely passive. No timing provided, no worker count provided. We as a viewer have absolutely no idea how such a situation will turn out. In the late game discussion, the BC raven discussion, QXC fail to provide rough information on how cost efficient the engagement can be. If he does believe it is an efficient army composition, he can at least try use micro map to test the engagement out. It will be way more efficient than trying to incorporate the army into his build, and then optimizing it, and then finding out it is in fact not that efficient = = In short, the earlier, more rational discussion have some good points and good suggestions in it. They make their points clear and allow each other to elaborate freely. On the negative side ( or what they can improve on = =), they did not provide any objective data or run any engagement simulations. Even if they cannot do so, they can at least provide tournament game examples and point out how the timing work out in different build. They are more of expressing what they feel than trying to push the understanding of the match up. They base their arguments upon belief that they did not verify. As viewers, why should we agree on what they say? Subjective opinions can hardly persuade anyone, if it is only an expression of thoughts, why should we have the discussion at all? How is it different from having the 2 guys write their own blog and put them together? The later "discussion"(drama show maybe a better word) which involve Avilo is even worse. Thoughts are explained, and points are made but nothing can be gained from such a discussion. Both of them did not add much things new, and completely disagree on what the other think. They shot down each other's arguments based on subjective belief instead of objective fact (assuming Avilo actually understood Idra's point). Idra actively shut down the conversation even when Avilo try to extend it by finding common ground between Idra and his belief. Idra made up his mind beforehand and discredit Avilo words because of Avilo lack of accomplishments, never a good thing when you try to learn something new(post patch TvZ). He let his emotion over run his rationale and went into insult. Avilo twisted Idra words for his own use and did not provide sufficient explanations on why he disagreed. He is like "I disagree, but I am not gonna tell you why". Moreover, the host and everyone else just stay outside of the picture and let the conversation ran wide. They did not try to relax the atmosphere and JP kick Avilo off the show in a irrespectfully way. QXC can try to rationalize Avilo's words, so that the conversations are less emotional. JP can give some breaks or put up an advertisement to calm things down. Incontrol and Nony can make a joke or two to chill them out. And of course, the same problems from the earlier discussion persist. The whole thing did not add anything worthy to the community but dramas. Idra and Avilo both solidify their image. If no objective facts/information can be provided, no common ground can be found, and both party cannot build their points upon it. This is the biggest problems of this sort of balance discussion. Those who support Avilo to be on the show is actually doing a disfavor for the communtiy. I pointed out the flaws in this episode and someone might find them offensive. I would just say they can work on those aspects if they plan for another balance discussion. The advice may be useful, or just ignore them if people do not want another balance discussion on the show. After all, State of the Game is not Imbalance (the show of Artosis) LOL, there is no need to have more worthless discussion on future shows. Idra was obviously not interested in having an discussion and I feel most of the blame is actually on JP for creating that situation, things went bad which everyone knew it would and once they achieved that Avilo was kicked instantly. That is something a bully in highschool would do, I think we should have moved past that point. I think JP believes that he was doing the community a service by bringing him up and also Incontrol "welcome" Avilo to be on the show. He just did not anticipate how things can turn out and is ill-prepared to handle the situation. He did not plan for a neat outro for Avilo but JP can defintely do a better job next time ~ ~ Also the point Idra makes that Avilo is a bad player is another thing I would like to bring up. SC2 players, specially in SOTG, like to praise themselves for being such tactical masterminds but fail to acknowledge that starcraft 2 is 50% understanding the game and 50% actually playing the game. SC2 skill is not equal to SC2 understanding and for players to argue like that is bullshit, "I have higher win rate then you, therefore I am per definition correct". Many of the things that makes you are great SC2 player could be grasped by an 8 year old child. It is good to: always have 100% minimap awareness, never get supply blocked, micro your units optimally to divided damage and maximize DPS, use you resources constantly, attacking and controlling a 5 different locations simultaneously. Yet If you look at a player like MKP (who recently was discussed as the best SC2 player in the world), the major reasons behind his success is because he excels at several of the points I mentioned above. Cause the problem is not understanding it, the problem is actually doing it. I agree that tournament result is combinely determined by understanding of the game and execution, and probably more things. I would just like to add, claiming it to be 50-50 is a little bit unappropiate cause we as viewers have no true idea on this issue. And the last sentence, I would rather rephase it as "Cause the problem is not only understanding it, but also actually doing it." Like your post, hope more rational people keep posting on TL to keep the forum healthy ^ ^ | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
HSM is fundamentally flawed because of its short range and small splash radius. Toss and zerg both have options with longer range (feedback/fungal) that can completely prevent a HSM from ever landing as long as they do the right things. It's like giving storms 6 range yet keeping snipes at 9, you'd never see a storm go off as long as there are ghosts on the field. Minimizing damage from HSM is just a matter of spreading out your units a bit, so even if you make a big mistake its not hard to minimize the damage taken. The only reason we occasionally see HSM work out is because zergs aren't really used to dealing with it, kinda like we terrans didn't even originally split our marines against banes. Should HSM become a standard transition, zergs would quickly learn how to micro around them and negate them. The only match-up where HSM really works is TvT simply because terran doesn't have an instant answer to it. Ghosts can work, but they are rarely built because they have no other uses in the match-up, unlike infestors/HTs. | ||
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Grimmyman123
Canada939 Posts
When Avilo came on, he poorly represented himself, and just complained about WHY Terran wasn't winning. Idra reiterated WHAT Terran needs to do, but that didn't seem to satisfy Avilo's complaints. I felt that Avilo only would have been satisfied if Idra told Avilo HOW to beat a zerg opponent. And that's the big difference between QXC, Idra, and Avilo. QXC and Idra discuss the WHY and WHAT needs to be done, Avilo wants the HOW - and that is the differnce between a game changer and a strategist, and someone that just emulates others do and plays the game. Pro vs amateur effectively. One of the better shows. I would have liked to see Incontrol not try and be entertaining or joking during a serious discussion, interupting with his abacus, it kind of took away from the seriousness of the show. There is a time and place for joking, even on the show, but during a serious discussion (TvZ) in which Protoss has not direct stance, it might have been time just to sit idly by. Jokes were great, just poor timing. | ||
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Disengaged
United States6994 Posts
On June 29 2012 20:34 4ZakeN87 wrote: Or maybe you should not talk bullshit about other players and invite them into a public ambush? Of course we can choose to act unprofessionally and behave like a highschool bullies if we want to, I however had hoped we would have moved past that point. As if avilo doesn't talk bullshit about them? Besides, he basically demanded to be put on the show. He got his wish. | ||
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4ZakeN87
Sweden1071 Posts
On June 29 2012 20:37 Roarer wrote: I do think Avilo did bring up a few valid points, but just that is not enough for a healthy balance discussion. I actually think both the 2 parties are not prepared enough to engage in a fruitful balance discussion. The biggest problem is that there is no objective fact provided, there is no common ground to build the discussion and evrything revolved around "I think / I feel/ I believe" instead of indisputable fact. I would shamelessly quote myself on this issue to explain what I mean in details : + Show Spoiler + On June 29 2012 17:27 Roarer wrote: Just finish watching the VODs, and I am actually quite disappionted at how the discussion went. Not in terms of the attitude / respect perspective but in term of how many objective detail information is provided. In the earlier QXC Idra discussion, they actually completely skip the mid game which is the timing when zerg can get to full saturation number on 3 bases. In the early game discussion, both of them go through some potential solutions and give valid explanations but they are not back up by objective information( some might argue, but at most only a little bit). The hellion run by discussion did not address how many lings will be needed to stop the hellions if it actually happened. As a result, there is no way we can quantify the zerg economic trade off to be safe against the run by. They also did not address how long will that delay the third base of Terran, then we cannot find out the economin trade off on the Terran side too. Regarding the mid game, they skip the zerg's 3 bases saturation timing and they give no estimation on how long the Bio aggression that Idra suggested can delay the saturation timing. The 3 orbital discussion also did not address how ahead zerg will be if both race go completely passive. No timing provided, no worker count provided. We as a viewer have absolutely no idea how such a situation will turn out. In the late game discussion, the BC raven discussion, QXC fail to provide rough information on how cost efficient the engagement can be. If he does believe it is an efficient army composition, he can at least try use micro map to test the engagement out. It will be way more efficient than trying to incorporate the army into his build, and then optimizing it, and then finding out it is in fact not that efficient = = In short, the earlier, more rational discussion have some good points and good suggestions in it. They make their points clear and allow each other to elaborate freely. On the negative side ( or what they can improve on = =), they did not provide any objective data or run any engagement simulations. Even if they cannot do so, they can at least provide tournament game examples and point out how the timing work out in different build. They are more of expressing what they feel than trying to push the understanding of the match up. They base their arguments upon belief that they did not verify. As viewers, why should we agree on what they say? Subjective opinions can hardly persuade anyone, if it is only an expression of thoughts, why should we have the discussion at all? How is it different from having the 2 guys write their own blog and put them together? The later "discussion"(drama show maybe a better word) which involve Avilo is even worse. Thoughts are explained, and points are made but nothing can be gained from such a discussion. Both of them did not add much things new, and completely disagree on what the other think. They shot down each other's arguments based on subjective belief instead of objective fact (assuming Avilo actually understood Idra's point). Idra actively shut down the conversation even when Avilo try to extend it by finding common ground between Idra and his belief. Idra made up his mind beforehand and discredit Avilo words because of Avilo lack of accomplishments, never a good thing when you try to learn something new(post patch TvZ). He let his emotion over run his rationale and went into insult. Avilo twisted Idra words for his own use and did not provide sufficient explanations on why he disagreed. He is like "I disagree, but I am not gonna tell you why". Moreover, the host and everyone else just stay outside of the picture and let the conversation ran wide. They did not try to relax the atmosphere and JP kick Avilo off the show in a irrespectfully way. QXC can try to rationalize Avilo's words, so that the conversations are less emotional. JP can give some breaks or put up an advertisement to calm things down. Incontrol and Nony can make a joke or two to chill them out. And of course, the same problems from the earlier discussion persist. The whole thing did not add anything worthy to the community but dramas. Idra and Avilo both solidify their image. If no objective facts/information can be provided, no common ground can be found, and both party cannot build their points upon it. This is the biggest problems of this sort of balance discussion. Those who support Avilo to be on the show is actually doing a disfavor for the communtiy. I pointed out the flaws in this episode and someone might find them offensive. I would just say they can work on those aspects if they plan for another balance discussion. The advice may be useful, or just ignore them if people do not want another balance discussion on the show. After all, State of the Game is not Imbalance (the show of Artosis) LOL, there is no need to have more worthless discussion on future shows. I think JP believes that he was doing the community a service by bringing him up and also Incontrol "welcome" Avilo to be on the show. He just did not anticipate how things can turn out and is ill-prepared to handle the situation. He did not plan for a neat outro for Avilo but JP can defintely do a better job next time ~ ~ I agree that tournament result is combinely determined by understanding of the game and execution, and probably more things. I would just like to add, claiming it to be 50-50 is a little bit unappropiate cause we as viewers have no true idea on this issue. And the last sentence, I would rather rephase it as "Cause the problem is not only understanding it, but also actually doing it." Like your post, hope more rational people keep posting on TL to keep the forum healthy ^ ^ Yeah good points, nice to get responses that are based on logic once in a while  | ||
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Grend
1600 Posts
On June 29 2012 20:34 4ZakeN87 wrote: Or maybe you should not talk bullshit about other players and invite them into a public ambush? Of course we can choose to act unprofessionally and behave like a highschool bullies if we want to, I however had hoped we would have moved past that point. He "invited" himself on the show. If you basically whine your way onto something like this you should not expect to get the royal treatment.. To me he seems like an incredibly annoying person >_> Just seemed a bit pointless to invite him on, QXC is more than able to discuss TvZ balance, and he is able to do it in a constructive way that actually gets somewhere. Seemed like a "what the heck, let´s stir up some drama" move. | ||
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bnanaPEEL
Canada138 Posts
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
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Grend
1600 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:05 bgx wrote: Why not someone transcribe the important part from SOTG so maybe people stop hearing things they want to hear. I mean the reality is only 1, so far ive seen 10 different realities while skimming through this thread. Do it yourself? | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:05 bgx wrote: Why not someone transcribe the important part from SOTG so maybe people stop hearing things they want to hear. I mean the reality is only 1, so far ive seen 10 different realities while skimming through this thread. They also put it out on podcast. I've been getting episodes through iTunes, so people could use that to hear exactly what happened. | ||
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CCsyph
United Kingdom97 Posts
On June 29 2012 20:49 Grend wrote: He "invited" himself on the show. If you basically whine your way onto something like this you should not expect to get the royal treatment.. To me he seems like an incredibly annoying person >_> Just seemed a bit pointless to invite him on, QXC is more than able to discuss TvZ balance, and he is able to do it in a constructive way that actually gets somewhere. Seemed like a "what the heck, let´s stir up some drama" move. Don't attack someone just because he "seems" like an annoying person, you don't know him, you've never spoken to him, this is the first time he is in the spotlight so it is completely invalid to judge him on a balance discussion. Maybe his points were flawed but the way he was treated is symbolic defamation to him. It is unfair. | ||
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
I liked the qxc/idra ZvT discussion alot. Being on the zerg side of things it's hard to explain to people (terrans) on ladder that I didn't play zerg to piss in their morning coffee, I have been playing zerg for a while now and I won't switch races, whether a matchup becomes onesided (either way) or not. Pulling Avilo into the show was just a horrible horrible way to gain publicity. I really like the content JP puts out, and I think he wasn't trying to stir up shit as much as he was just enjoying himself and made a bad decision because of it. I think Idra showed a lot of respect to Avilo, he let him finish and made counterpoints, and then Avilo made counterpoints to that. It became apparant quickly however that Avilo could not make a solid argument so instead of continuing he went with the "oh, so you agree with me! I agree with you! It IS imbalanced!" Not only doing a poor job of twisting his words but also making himself look like a total jackass (as if we needed confirmation). So I understand Idra's reaction. As far as I can tell Idra didn't like being put on the spot like that but it's not like he hates JP all of a sudden, he just wanted to make it clear this shouldn't happen. I do hope this is the last time JP does something reckless like this, intentional or not he should be a bit more careful as with some thought it would be obvious it was going to end this way. Big props to qxc! He was amazing on this episode. Tyler being a bit quiet as always, but when he does give input it's usually spot on or at the very least well phrased and respectful. Incontrol didn't really add much this episode other than his usual "look at me I'm being funny". Which is fine, but it does get old. I really like Incontrol btw so don't get me wrong. JP.... I mean he still knows how to manage the people to create an episode with direction but sometimes he needs to have a little bit less fun and more thought towards his actions. I understand in a way SOTG is trying to be a laid back "go with the flow" show but sometimes it could use a little more guidance. I look forward to next episode! | ||
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Kznn
Brazil9072 Posts
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:24 CCsyph wrote: Don't attack someone just because he "seems" like an annoying person, you don't know him, you've never spoken to him, this is the first time he is in the spotlight so it is completely invalid to judge him on a balance discussion. Maybe his points were flawed but the way he was treated is symbolic defamation to him. It is unfair. He didn't just magically appear out of nowhere for this SotG, he was annoying before this show, and even before this patch. | ||
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The KY
United Kingdom6252 Posts
This show; *smokes cigarette and nods sadly* | ||
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
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CCsyph
United Kingdom97 Posts
On June 29 2012 21:28 Dandel Ion wrote: He didn't just magically appear out of nowhere for this SotG, he was annoying before this show, and even before this patch. Give me evidence of his annoyance or don't post. | ||
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