How good can you get with low APM? - Page 4

tehemperorer

United States2183 Posts

July 04 2010 17:26 GMT

#61

I believe figq is right. Day[9] said something that I think is most applicable in this context when talking about apm and analyzing differences in apm's between different levels of players... APM is important up until a certain point; obviously if you have 30-50 Macro APM and about 90 during a fight you will struggle, but above 120, it isn't about spamming commands, its about having a tight, clean style of play. If you are tight on timing, like having probes harvest as soon as the nexus pops, or during a fight hit your barracks hotkey and pump more units then go back to the fight, you should be good because you are doing things as fast as they should be done and aren't waiting until job 1 is complete before starting job 2. Multitasking is key, not serializing your commands.

Chaoz

United States507 Posts

July 04 2010 17:29 GMT

#62

I think you have to go back and look at the very basics. How do you sit? Is your desk at the right height? Are you using a comfortable mouse?

Sit upright and in a relaxed position. Don't slouch, nor hunch forward either. Your elbows should be at a 90 degree angle when using the keyboard and mouse. The mouse should be comfortable; if you're constantly adjusting your hand then you might need a new one. I have a huge problem with that myself since my hand sweats when playing and I think the mouse is a bit to big for playing. Still trying to find a better mouse for me.

Alpz

United Kingdom9 Posts

July 04 2010 17:29 GMT

#63

Everyone should remember that this was actually beta, meaning a limited number of players. I think the distance of "player quality" between each of the leagues will increase, when the game actually goes live.

Instead of tens of thousands of players, we should be seeing hundreds of thousands of players. (If not more)

Roggay

Switzerland6320 Posts

July 04 2010 17:31 GMT

#64

I have the same problem (the APM one), except its worse. My APM during the whole game is really low, maybe because I hate spamming in the beginning of the game. Every time I try to spam I feel uncomfortable and tend to forget things, so I prefer not to do so. It is mainly because Im new to RTS and I know spamming isnt the most important thing to learn, it will come with time. Concentrate on the important part and as long as you can macro decently well you are fine, you are progressing.

Tropics

United Kingdom1132 Posts

July 04 2010 17:42 GMT

#65

holy shit this thread make me take a look at my replays to see my apm, i only have 80. i thought i had like 110 or so, jesus.

i played like 180 in brood war, i guess sc2 just inspires me to be lazy. Anyway, i was like 1700 points on ladder when plat was highest with apparently 80 apm and i wasn't near peak. This game is so young that until you're hitting really high ranks you dont need to be that fast, as i learned by browsing my replays. I can still keep my money low and my unit control is fine with this amount, unless you're playing top level invitationals you can probably get away with being slow like me.

this game isnt like brood war where being fast = skill i guess, just play smart builds and eventually you'll start speeding up to meet what you need and improving.

fams

Canada731 Posts

July 04 2010 17:56 GMT

#66

I think you just need to focus on getting as high an effective* rate of APM as possible. Anyone can spam and get 400APM (some euro amateur wc3 players do that) and they still get crushed by 200-300 APM pros. It is about being effective with your actions, like most people here seem to have said.

Yes you want it to be as high as possible, but not so much that it is a detriment to your play -ie, you spam more than you play-. The higher your effective APM is, the faster you are able to play essentially. At least that's how I personally view APM. Precision of your clicks is also a huge part of it, I find.

Copperhead

Canada97 Posts

July 04 2010 18:01 GMT

#67

I would like to remind you axslav is a good player with under 100 apm...

fams

Canada731 Posts

July 04 2010 18:06 GMT

#68

On July 05 2010 03:01 Copperhead wrote:
I would like to remind you axslav is a good player with under 100 apm...

I would also like to remind you, I am almost positive that axslav has never won a major event in his life. He uses creative plays to win a few matches and beat some good players.

Marou

Germany1371 Posts

July 04 2010 18:10 GMT

#69

just don't think about, keep remember the things you want to and just try do all of them as fast as you can, simultanously if needed and you're apm will just grow by itself. Don't bother yourself to much with that, it's actually pretty rewarding to win an oppenant that has twice your APM

Also you can spam like crazy early game and you're apm will get up but...that's something absolutely not important and can be sometimes verry bad

Trope

United States40 Posts

July 04 2010 18:16 GMT

#70

On July 05 2010 00:57 farseer_dk wrote:
Does spamming at the start really help you get a "rhythm"? I've never ever felt like I've had a Starcraft "rhythm"... is that bad?

this is maybe the most interesting part of the post to me. for me personally (i'm another low-apm player), spamming at the beginning doesn't help me "warm up" much or anything. and its certainly true that you don't need as much apm in this game as you did in the previous one to be pretty good.

but every once in a while i have a game where i play way, way higher than my usual skill level. it's like being in the zone--i feel like i can do no wrong, and i know that i am doing much better than my opponent even if there hasn't been much fighting or anything. when that happens, i definitely feel like i've entered into some sort of "rhythm" that i don't usually have, and when i check the replays, i have much higher apm in these games.

so i'm not trying to say that high apm means that you will necessarily play better, but i do think that when you're playing your best, your apm will be higher, as a side effect of that "rhythm" that good players in any sport allude to.

Snuggles

United States1865 Posts

July 04 2010 18:16 GMT

#71

On July 05 2010 02:56 fams wrote:
Precision of your clicks is also a huge part of it, I find.

I just want to add that if you watch some FPVODs of players like Bisu, you'll find that they have insane accuracy and they tie it in together with speed for precision AND high APM, it's the most effective combo in general terms of mechanics. I don't think anyone has really tried to or is even capable of that sort of high level mechanics yet, but when they do it'll be amazing to watch and I bet a lot of us will change our opinions of the necessity of high APM in professional levels of play.

Aside from TL I noticed that people from other communities really look down on high apm as a method of "showing off" and a measurement of your epeen, but they really don't understand that when your APM becomes naturally high, it's very beneficial.

Plus when you try to explain it to other people they seem to automatically reject it and try to force their "correct" versions of the argument as stubbornly as possible =P. I think Day9 mentioned something like this in a daily.

c.Deadly

United States545 Posts

July 04 2010 18:22 GMT

#72

You can be pretty good with <100 APM currently, but I don't think that will always be the case. Most games don't progress past 2-base play, even in Diamond league, so low APM is sufficient. However, once players develop the skills and the builds to play very economically but still defend against rush/cheese, the faster players will always win.

fams

Canada731 Posts

July 04 2010 18:23 GMT

#73

On the subject of whether or not keeping up a high APM at the start (spamming actions or just switching ctrl groups) helps you keep rhythm or not:

I think this is just person to person. I read a few comments saying it doesn't help them. However for me personally, I find it keeps the constant reminder of "hey you need to be doing stuff, all the time...stop stalling and keep playing".

However sometimes I get caught up in my train of thought while I do switch ctrl groups quickly or spam actions, and end up missing a timing in my BO or I don't notice a scout or something that I regularly would have, and it puts me very far behind, very early. So, I think if it helps, use it, if not, don' bother, you have other faults you need to remedy, go work on them instead.

That is just my opinion.

Barnzy

United Kingdom57 Posts

July 04 2010 18:25 GMT

#74

very good APM is far to bigged up, i understand a good APM rate is needed however it is no the be all and end all and it annoys the hell out of me to watch replays where players are just randomly clicking to get a 200+ APM its just soft!

SichuanPanda

Canada1542 Posts

July 04 2010 18:26 GMT

#75

75 - 120 APM should be sufficient to get you up to Diamond rank - provided you are effectively using all of your APM, essentially it takes about that much APM to do a perfect macro-game, so as long as you know WHERE to be using your micro, you should be fine with that.

Besides, as you keep playing and get more comfortable with builds and unit control your APM will go up. I was at 65 APM when I started WC3, and when I quit playing I was at 120 average, with 200+ spikes. It takes time, but the micro will come, just focus on having rock-solid macro for the time being.

Treva

United States533 Posts

July 04 2010 18:27 GMT

#76

For me personally APM is a mental thing. I am not a high APM player naturally but I can be if I really want to. I think if you're doing the constant spam and moving around real quick then mentally you're more focused on the game. For me I find that if I just do the mandatory clicks then just kind of wait until something needs to be done I get distracted from my build order or my micro slips (I also have terrible ADHD so a fly trapped between a window and a certain keeps me entertained for the next 2 hours) but I really do think the more you're doing, the more you're focused. However, if you can stay focused just fine and are still doing quite well with low APM then hey go for it!

Also, first post on TL :-D

Baksteen

Netherlands438 Posts

July 04 2010 18:29 GMT

#77

As stated many times before doing the right things is more important. As you remember to do more things you will also increase in APM. This will come naturally i believe, i'm kinda in the same situation as you. Got to low diamond with around 60-70, with the more practice i will remember more things and my APM will start improving.

Alou

United States3748 Posts

July 04 2010 18:31 GMT

#78

Plenty of good players out there with just 70-80ish APM. It's about making the right decisions. Your APM will just rise with time probably.

Nitron

Singapore177 Posts

July 04 2010 18:31 GMT

#79

Do not think of APM in a way by " oh i need to be more pro, i need more apm, spam spam spam!" You have to get that idea out of your head. Knowing how much is your apm is not gonna help. What u need is your mental state when u are playing the game. Like every second u gotta think of ur worker production, keep looking at your supply, keep producing units, keep watching your money flow. All these will have to be in your mind as you fight battles, as you move your units around, the moment u think too much about ur units u will begin to forget, and forget to do stuff, hence lower APM. If u keep this mental state up, eventually u will see ur apm rising to 100+ at least becuz u naturally need to click more

Zed.iii

50 Posts

July 04 2010 18:32 GMT

#80

On July 05 2010 00:57 farseer_dk wrote:
So do you guys think that it's possible to be a diamond league, division top 10 SC2 player with 70 apm?

This, I don't understand what ppl r getting this from but

DIVISIONS DOESN'T COUNT IN ANY WAY IN YOUR SKILL

I mean the first 100 who get into diamond will obviously be in division 1, and the next hundred in division 2 etc..
it has nothing to do with skill, you don't ever get promoted to a "better" or "worse" division, cus there's no such thing

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