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Towards the end of the beta, I've been holding steady around Diamond rank 30 as protoss... sometimes rising into the top 20 but rarely staying. As somewhat of a "lazy" player I almost never reviewed my own replays. During the game I would do mental checks like making sure my money was low etc., but I never actually went into my replays and dissected them.
Now with the beta down and my epic boredom, I have done it a few times. I noticed that my average APM is like 70. By many, many people's standards, that is utter crap. I do spike to around 120 during mico-heavy battles and my APM rises steadily throughout the game (naturally I suppose as I build more bases and have to macro more) so that my non-battle APM is around 90 at the 25 minute mark of a game... but still, that's really low.
So do you guys think that it's possible to be a diamond league, division top 10 SC2 player with 70 apm? Does this mean that the rest of my game is somehow better than most people's or is this just an epic example of how division rank means nothing? If I increased my APM would it make a huge difference in my effectiveness? Does spamming at the start really help you get a "rhythm"? I've never ever felt like I've had a Starcraft "rhythm"... is that bad?
I'm pretty new to starcraft as a whole... I played SC:BW but never rose above C- and spent the vast majority of my time as a D+. Have there been progamers with low APMs?
edit: fixed a type... lol i wrote "fast majority" instead of "vast majority" ahaha...
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Really good.
Focus on remember doing the right actions instead of doing actions fast, and you'll become a great player.
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in SC2 you need about half the APM than in SCBW, so around 150 should be ok to do pretty much everything you need/want to do (especially as protoss who don't require quite as much APM as Terran or Zerg).
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| | this good!
I was hoping apm wouldn't be a focus in sc2 but meh.
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as long as you get your things that you want to get done (eg. makro and micro) you dont need higher APM.
If you cant get stuff done that you remember to do and want to do then yeah.
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you can get really good with low apm but at some point i feel like youll have a hard time keeping up wiht your macro. use hot keys and macro while you attack and your apm should rise to at least 100.
edit. i really like what this guy said above me. if you are playing and want to do somthing but just arent fast enough. say your attacking and you want to make 10 goons and 2 ht while your attacking. and also start upgrading +2 attack and maybe also build probes from your 2 running nexus and send 2 idle probes to mine. and you feel like your too slow to do it. then your probably moving too slow to do it. what you need to do is get in the rythem of using hot keys. so that while your microing you can hit 1g2g3g4g5t6t9p0p and then bounce back to main and hit the upgrades and bounce back. i dont know how you like your hotkeys eveyrone has there own preference. just see whats comfortable for you and go with it. if you need a practice buddy hit me up on iccup charlie420247
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I'm going to say that yes you can become a top diamond level player with low APM. However, no offense, but this will not apply to you because you have another problem... You are "lazy and don't watch replays". If you aren't actively trying to improve, even if you have enough APM you won't.
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if you really limited your actions so you didn't spam at all (by this i include right clicking units alot to certain areas) you could have 100 apm and do pretty well (considering apm is cut by like 50% on the counter) so 100 apm on sc2, is like 150 actual.
Overall, apm is a pretty bad measurement of how well you can do - with the new replay watching methods of first person views you can see players hopping around pretty quickly and having a decently low apm. The players that usually spam alot - their screes will often sit still or stay set on 1 position for longer than normal.
While it's good to be able to have high actions - accuracy and swiftness are more key points.
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APM doesn't say too much about a player. It's just a number that helps noobs distinct one another from even bigger noobs 
The requirement of lower realAPM is just that more people can play SC2 competitively and E-sports will benefit from that.
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On July 05 2010 01:04 BigT wrote:
I'm going to say that yes you can become a top diamond level player with low APM. However, no offense, but this will not apply to you because you have another problem... You are "lazy and don't watch replays". If you aren't actively trying to improve, even if you have enough APM you won't.
I'm lazy and don't watch MY OWN replays. I watch more Day9 then I do standard tv
I guess I should go back and watch my own replays... especially the losses... but I hate watching myself lose T_T
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On July 05 2010 01:04 Inori wrote:
I remember WhiteRa saying somewhere that 120 apm is enough for him in SC2.
He plays Toss. So, yeah, if he's well organized 120 APM can be enough.
I'm at around 120-130 APM and begin to struggle w/ Zerg when I approach 4 saturated bases. You have to do lot of things that repeat over and over again (larvae, creep tumors) and then there's macroing. But I'd say early-midgame is no problem at all with ~120 APM as Zerg.
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if you watch yourself lose you can look and see why you lost. instead of just raging about how x unit is imba.
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On July 05 2010 01:06 farseer_dk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 01:04 BigT wrote:
I'm going to say that yes you can become a top diamond level player with low APM. However, no offense, but this will not apply to you because you have another problem... You are "lazy and don't watch replays". If you aren't actively trying to improve, even if you have enough APM you won't. I'm lazy and don't watch MY OWN replays. I watch more Day9 then I do standard tv I guess I should go back and watch my own replays... especially the losses... but I hate watching myself lose T_T
Yeah, you need to be analyzing exactly what you need to improve upon specifically, you cant just focus on what other people are doing and trying to replicate that. It's too broad of a focus. But if you stop being so lazy and start to actively try to improve, theres no doubt that you will 
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Netherlands4511 Posts
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70 is quite good apm for sc2.
That's not like in sc1 where you had 100apm and you barely kept macroing and attacking, sc2 does not need so much spamming due to the MBS and unlimited control groups.
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On July 05 2010 01:11 charlie420247 wrote:
if you watch yourself lose you can look and see why you lost. instead of just raging about how x unit is imba.
The only thing I ever rage about (balance wise) is how much archons suck lol... If they buffed archons think about the dt --> archon opening you could do against a zerg...
Back on topic... I usually can tell why I lost. It's rare that I lose and do not know why. My style of play involves a lot of early aggression and the vast majority of my loses are due to a mis-micro or messed up timing... and I can usually tell when that happens without watching the replay...
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High AMP's are mostly from spamming so if you only count the AMP of the non spamming you probable get under the 100 but I feel by spamming you are more focused and you can respond easier when it can gets micro intensive. You also have to be very precise with you timing when non spamming so I think it makes stuff easier by spamming
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You could win tournies with 70 apm. In the future maybe not but for now you be the best with that apm.
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Keep playing and don't worry about APM. It's not fixed technical skill of your body/mind, it is developed. It's not even that your fingers become faster, but just your mind wants to get more things done in shorter time (for strat/micro-sake), as you learn more reasons and timings, and you begin to worry about more stuff than before. I can guarantee you that your APM will get better, just don't watch it at all, for now, watch your game; then some day you look back and realize your apm has gotten much higher, without you even realizing. There are some of the top players who can be seen get away with 100-150 apm range, doing pretty well, so that's enough in terms of hands speed, as long as you know what you're doing.
p.s. And for Jaedong's sake watch your own bloody replays! (: 1game+1replay watch > 10 games. Particularly the losses, but also any game where your opponent did stuff that surprised you, and you haven't figured them out at the time.
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What other people are saying. APM might be a measurement of multitasking that you can use to remind yourself to improve... your multitasking, but it does come naturally if your playing competitively due to the fact that there's almost always something else you should be doing.
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On July 05 2010 01:13 ret wrote:
there is no spoon...
Yea because some asshole plate keeps taking them...
+ Show Spoiler +
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Luckily, sc2 is more focus on strategy than APM (some of the tedious actions were removed i.e. workers gathering min/gas, many army groups).
70 is easily enough for diamond.
Progamer wise, you will need to increase...but that's pro.
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I played in Platinum fine maxing out at 40 APM. Having a touchpad didn't help.
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On July 05 2010 01:00 Pads wrote:
| | this good!
I was hoping apm wouldn't be a focus in sc2 but meh.
with the keyboard and mouse that light up because of your apm it will be a major factor, sadly.
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White-Ra has generally less than 100 APM, except in tourney play / games he cares about, and still tops the ladder.
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On July 05 2010 01:26 Syphon8 wrote:
I played in Platinum fine maxing out at 40 APM. Having a touchpad didn't help.
That is actually really impressive...nice work.
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On July 05 2010 01:29 EliteAzn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 01:26 Syphon8 wrote:
I played in Platinum fine maxing out at 40 APM. Having a touchpad didn't help. That is actually really impressive...nice work.
holycrap i'm like bottom of silver with a touchpad ahahaha... i know because I tried
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in ladder matches I have noticed I average at around 50 apm, yet I was a top 10 diamond zerg player, I know that doesn't mean much... but I make my actions count?
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hmmmmmmmm 70 apm seems fairly low but like i know a bunch of pretty good foriegners didnt break 200 and they were a- lvl
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You still need to watch your replays. Or at the very least have someone else watch them if you think you know everything already. It seems like you are trying to defend yourself when you were the one who called yourself "lazy" in the OP...
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On July 05 2010 01:34 BigT wrote:
You still need to watch your replays. Or at the very least have someone else watch them if you think you know everything already. It seems like you are trying to defend yourself when you were the one who called yourself "lazy" in the OP...
Well I'm just reiterating the logic I use to justify (to myself) not watching my replays... flawed as it is
What should I be looking out for in my replays? Should i watch myself or my opponent more? What's the best counter to have open?
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120-150 is certainly enough for a good spot on the Diamond league.
Even though all of us pretty much agrees that you don't need an insane amount of APM to be successful, I'm pretty sure you'd need quite a bit as the game gets older and older.
I mean I play Zerg, I've been practicing with the AI this whole time working on having high APM NON-SPAM. I can hit the 170 - 230 range quite easily late game because there is soooooo much to do, and that's just my macro. I suck so I can't multitask with my micro very well, but in battles when you micro and also macro at the same time, your APM will shoot up like crazy. So when SC2 is out long enough for people to get really good at it, I predict that 200 + APMs will be a norm. I doubt 300+ APM will be around like it was in BW, for the obvious reasons.
And this APM is all non-spam- it really throws you ahead of the game if your opponent simply cannot keep up, especially when you are doing all the "right" things. Before the Beta ended I had several games where it turned into an intensive macro battle where would have big armies clashing over and over. In this one game his apm was around 70 and he was ranked 7th in the diamond league at the time while my apm was a good 160 and I was ranked like 30 something. I would win easily simply by being able to fit in upgrades, expos, and creep(ovi spreading) etc. while producing a ton of units because I kept my queen energy below 50 (I think keeping queen energy low no matter what is a really good exercise). So it really goes to show that high APM has its advantages, especially when it goes into late-game where none of it is spam.
All that said, the fundamentals are still more important... much more important. Not being a solid player will make you lose to a lot more crap. High APM can't get you out of a situation where the toss 4gates you and you have NO IDEA WHAT TO DO ARGGHHHH..... I could never get into the top 10 because I don't have all the fundamentals down. It was only after this month of practice I learned how to prepare myself for timing pushes and just learning what "timing" really means and what it can do lol.
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Well there are many many things to take into consideration. Obviously any error that you see yourself making could be for two reasons. A) Because you just messed up or B) it was a mistake because of what your opponent was doing.
And thats the beauty of watching replays. Although you know exactly what YOU did the entire game, you don't know what your opponent was doing the entire game. Sure you have a broad sense of what he did, but you don't know his exact timings. Which if you do a lot of early aggression is absolutely crucial. For a horrible example, you need to know exactly when your zerg opponent is going to have 6 lings out if you are doing early aggression.
So yes, I would say the most important thing would be to first analyze what your opponent did, then go back and analyze whether or not you played appropriately. Perhaps if you had known he did "A" instead of "B" you would have reacted differently. By doing this over and over again you will start to notice re-occuring tendencies which will then trigger specific according responses. That way you will know exactly what to do vs every build possible over time.
Hope that helps,
Big T
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Dude keep doing what your doing starcraft from a mechanical level is just like anything else skill based. It requires alot of practice to become fast I.E piano, if you take the time to play consistently and worry about precision and your mental check list your APM will consistently rise. Too many people will focus spamming which takes away thought process from the actual game, again piano if you practice a slow piece to perfection it will sound beautiful compared to a technical/fast piece that's played poorly.
I never played an RTS on a competitive level and I held the 1-3 rank spot in diamond, my APM was tripled in alot of matches. My biggest problem was misclicking I know EVERYTHING that needs to be done, but precision was lacking.
http://www.d3scene.com/forum/cs-guides/18396-guide-complete-cs-s-mouse-optimization-guide.html
read this and then play some OSU! if you get your mouse precision to feel natural you'll literally soar through your games!
Hope this helps
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On July 05 2010 01:41 Snuggles wrote:
120-150 is certainly enough for a good spot on the Diamond league.
Even though all of us pretty much agrees that you don't need an insane amount of APM to be successful, I'm pretty sure you'd need quite a bit as the game gets older and older.
I mean I play Zerg, I've been practicing with the AI this whole time working on having high APM NON-SPAM. I can hit the 170 - 230 range quite easily late game because there is soooooo much to do, and that's just my macro. I suck so I can't multitask with my micro very well, but in battles when you micro and also macro at the same time, your APM will shoot up like crazy. So when SC2 is out long enough for people to get really good at it, I predict that 200 + APMs will be a norm. I doubt 300+ APM will be around like it was in BW, for the obvious reasons.
What AI do you play against? I can very easily beat every non-cheating AI I've tried... I need a sparring partner.
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To me playing SC is a lot like playing a guitar. Not sure if you play any kind of instrument, but if you do you might notice that it is pretty hard to keep your fingers still while having a guitar in your hand. If you enjoy playing an instrument you just fiddle around with it whenever in reach... playing a stupid riff... over using hammer-ons and pull-offs for no reason... etc I think this is why many players spam... they just like the feeling it gives you....
Thinking about the keyboard in SC (or any other high speed RTS) as a music instrument is a good concept for me. You practice very slow for a while (learning notes/hotkeys), play your first songs/games and after a while you will notice you are not thinking about it anymore. Certain hotkey combinations just feel like playing a riff. Misclicking is like playing a false note. And as you never stop playing on a false note during a live show you just keeping macroing in SC2 even if you make a miss on micro.
Speed comes with confidence and knowing the notes/keys. Of course you can train your APM skills just "mechanically" by practicing, but usually this will come automatically. If you try to play faster and you make much more mistakes - try practicing key combos in a test map (e.g. YABOT) until you can do them without much thinking. If your error rate is low and you feel your game is at the right speed don't worry about APM.
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I feel like, when I play enough to put myself at a higher level of play, my apm just increases naturally out of simply knowing what I need to be doing, and doing it! 70 apm is really fairly low and I think once the game actually comes out, if you want to keep a high position in diamond, you will need to play more than you do now and your apm will naturally just increase.
I find that at about 100 its fairly easy to play without any worries because of the new hotkey set ups. I play terran and I find that since I can just set all my barracks to 4 and tab through techlabs/reactors. It really doesnt need as much as in the original where I would hotkey multiple barracks/factories to keep my macro up.
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On July 05 2010 01:38 farseer_dk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 01:34 BigT wrote:
You still need to watch your replays. Or at the very least have someone else watch them if you think you know everything already. It seems like you are trying to defend yourself when you were the one who called yourself "lazy" in the OP... Well I'm just reiterating the logic I use to justify (to myself) not watching my replays... flawed as it is What should I be looking out for in my replays? Should i watch myself or my opponent more? What's the best counter to have open?
IF you have absolutely no idea, look at commentaries and see what the pros do. You don't have to mimic what they do, but look at their playing styles and what they do...then you can look at your own game and you can probably see your mistakes yourself...then it's just practices...
(that's just what I think..)
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I was low silver with 45 apm during the beta (i only got to play maybe a 1 & half weeks) and did everything by mouse: the only two hotkeys i learned were r for depot and ghost sniper shot. I never even did any hotkeys for buildings. I just jumped all over the map doing my macro and micro by mouse.
I allmost broke my mouse hand during one game against other terran which took 1hour 55 minutes in which my apm rose to 80 apm avarage during the last 40 minutes of the game. I had some wrist pains for an hour after the game.
During the downtime i actually learned to do my macroing and mules & scanning with hotkeys and at least against the ai:s ive improved significantly, im still bit slow and keep on missclicking stuff tho so im not really exdpecting to get even to the gold yet when the beta is back.
But yeah, if someone is doing good with 50 apm in diamond id say you really know what youre doing then.
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70 apm?
that's it?
you have got to be kidding me...
I am so fucking tired of these faggot noobs that come on here and talk about how they are in the diamond league and so fucking good.. god, it makes me want to puke hearing them go on about themselves..
no, 70 apm is not enough to play at the best level. No, you're not as good as you think you are. And no, you'll never fucking amount to anything in SCII.
If you're looking for a computer game to play, try CS. It's really easy, so a shitty gamer like yourself should have no problem with it.
Remember, SCII is for men, and you're just a boy.
User was banned for this post.
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On July 05 2010 01:48 micropede3 wrote:
70 apm?
that's it?
you have got to be kidding me...
I am so fucking tired of these faggot noobs that come on here and talk about how they are in the diamond league and so fucking good.. god, it makes me want to puke hearing them go on about themselves..
no, 70 apm is not enough to play at the best level. No, you're not as good as you think you are. And no, you'll never fucking amount to anything in SCII.
If you're looking for a computer game to play, try CS. It's really easy, so a shitty gamer like yourself should have no problem with it.
Remember, SCII is for men, and you're just a boy.
rage moar pls.
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On July 05 2010 01:48 micropede3 wrote:
70 apm?
that's it?
you have got to be kidding me...
I am so fucking tired of these faggot noobs that come on here and talk about how they are in the diamond league and so fucking good.. god, it makes me want to puke hearing them go on about themselves..
no, 70 apm is not enough to play at the best level. No, you're not as good as you think you are. And no, you'll never fucking amount to anything in SCII.
If you're looking for a computer game to play, try CS. It's really easy, so a shitty gamer like yourself should have no problem with it.
Remember, SCII is for men, and you're just a boy.
Hypocrite.
As far as laddering goes, you will do just fine with strong play and good strategy.
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On July 05 2010 01:48 micropede3 wrote:
70 apm?
that's it?
you have got to be kidding me...
I am so fucking tired of these faggot noobs that come on here and talk about how they are in the diamond league and so fucking good.. god, it makes me want to puke hearing them go on about themselves..
no, 70 apm is not enough to play at the best level. No, you're not as good as you think you are. And no, you'll never fucking amount to anything in SCII.
If you're looking for a computer game to play, try CS. It's really easy, so a shitty gamer like yourself should have no problem with it.
Remember, SCII is for men, and you're just a boy.
calm the hell down.
70 is easily enough for diamond (I had around 70 and was ~30 diamond)
Just at least have fun while you play (unlike this raging troll)
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Remember, SCII is for men, and you're just a boy.
Then what is BW for? Walking balls of steel?
Also I wanna mention that TLO, everytime I see the APM counter, seems to be around 120. So I think you can actually get pretty damn good with around 140-150 APM. ;D
SB
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On July 05 2010 01:44 farseer_dk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 01:41 Snuggles wrote:
120-150 is certainly enough for a good spot on the Diamond league.
Even though all of us pretty much agrees that you don't need an insane amount of APM to be successful, I'm pretty sure you'd need quite a bit as the game gets older and older.
I mean I play Zerg, I've been practicing with the AI this whole time working on having high APM NON-SPAM. I can hit the 170 - 230 range quite easily late game because there is soooooo much to do, and that's just my macro. I suck so I can't multitask with my micro very well, but in battles when you micro and also macro at the same time, your APM will shoot up like crazy. So when SC2 is out long enough for people to get really good at it, I predict that 200 + APMs will be a norm. I doubt 300+ APM will be around like it was in BW, for the obvious reasons. What AI do you play against? I can very easily beat every non-cheating AI I've tried... I need a sparring partner.
I've been playing against the Dark green tea AI and the regular one, but mostly the dark green tea.
I never cheese the ai of course because there wouldn't be any point to it so I always let the game run into the late stage where things would get pretty tough. I used to lose a lot to it, not because I couldn't keep it up, but because I wasn't doing what I needed to do at the right times. Which again is why being smart and knowing what to do should come before high APM.
Now I'm able to beat the AI consistently on all match-ups during the late-game because it forced me to do good well timed transitions and put out the damage I needed to do WHERE I needed to do it (hitting a fresh expo rather than going straight for the main). So basically it was a lot of decision making training.
I'm really looking forward to the beta coming back up. I never really massed games, but this month I massed a ton against the AIs so I want to see how much better I've gotten. I need a practice partner too, to play like 25+ games a day and work on our timing. I really want to get good at SC2 >.<
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On July 05 2010 01:53 farseer_dk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 01:48 micropede3 wrote:
70 apm?
that's it?
you have got to be kidding me...
I am so fucking tired of these faggot noobs that come on here and talk about how they are in the diamond league and so fucking good.. god, it makes me want to puke hearing them go on about themselves..
no, 70 apm is not enough to play at the best level. No, you're not as good as you think you are. And no, you'll never fucking amount to anything in SCII.
If you're looking for a computer game to play, try CS. It's really easy, so a shitty gamer like yourself should have no problem with it.
Remember, SCII is for men, and you're just a boy. rage moar pls.
stfu you dumb canadian
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On July 05 2010 01:48 micropede3 wrote:
70 apm?
that's it?
you have got to be kidding me...
I am so fucking tired of these faggot noobs that come on here and talk about how they are in the diamond league and so fucking good.. god, it makes me want to puke hearing them go on about themselves..
no, 70 apm is not enough to play at the best level. No, you're not as good as you think you are. And no, you'll never fucking amount to anything in SCII.
If you're looking for a computer game to play, try CS. It's really easy, so a shitty gamer like yourself should have no problem with it.
Remember, SCII is for men, and you're just a boy.
Axslav is 80 APM most of the time. Tactics CAN outdo mechanics. Mind you three of his ITL wins are against Azz, Antimage, and CauthonLuck.
Care to comment on this?
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On July 05 2010 01:58 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 01:48 micropede3 wrote:
70 apm?
that's it?
you have got to be kidding me...
I am so fucking tired of these faggot noobs that come on here and talk about how they are in the diamond league and so fucking good.. god, it makes me want to puke hearing them go on about themselves..
no, 70 apm is not enough to play at the best level. No, you're not as good as you think you are. And no, you'll never fucking amount to anything in SCII.
If you're looking for a computer game to play, try CS. It's really easy, so a shitty gamer like yourself should have no problem with it.
Remember, SCII is for men, and you're just a boy. Axslav is 80 APM most of the time. Tactics CAN outdo mechanics. Mind you three of his ITL wins are against Azz, Antimage, and CauthonLuck. Care to comment on this?
Yeah, and i beat all of those players (including axslav) with the exception of cauthonluck (have never played him) and i know my apm is lower than 90
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On July 05 2010 01:48 micropede3 wrote:
70 apm?
that's it?
you have got to be kidding me...
I am so fucking tired of these faggot noobs that come on here and talk about how they are in the diamond league and so fucking good.. god, it makes me want to puke hearing them go on about themselves..
no, 70 apm is not enough to play at the best level. No, you're not as good as you think you are. And no, you'll never fucking amount to anything in SCII.
If you're looking for a computer game to play, try CS. It's really easy, so a shitty gamer like yourself should have no problem with it.
Remember, SCII is for men, and you're just a boy.
Relax man.
People aren't really gunning to be a "progamer". SC2 at the "best" level isn't going to be around until the game is out for a few years. 70 apm is enough to have a good spot on the diamond league. And I'm positive most of these diamond league players understand that they don't amount to anything when faced against the real tournament playing pros =P
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On July 05 2010 01:56 micropede3 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 01:53 farseer_dk wrote:On July 05 2010 01:48 micropede3 wrote:
70 apm?
that's it?
you have got to be kidding me...
I am so fucking tired of these faggot noobs that come on here and talk about how they are in the diamond league and so fucking good.. god, it makes me want to puke hearing them go on about themselves..
no, 70 apm is not enough to play at the best level. No, you're not as good as you think you are. And no, you'll never fucking amount to anything in SCII.
If you're looking for a computer game to play, try CS. It's really easy, so a shitty gamer like yourself should have no problem with it.
Remember, SCII is for men, and you're just a boy. rage moar pls. stfu you dumb canadian
such a troll
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On July 05 2010 01:56 Snuggles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 01:44 farseer_dk wrote:On July 05 2010 01:41 Snuggles wrote:
120-150 is certainly enough for a good spot on the Diamond league.
Even though all of us pretty much agrees that you don't need an insane amount of APM to be successful, I'm pretty sure you'd need quite a bit as the game gets older and older.
I mean I play Zerg, I've been practicing with the AI this whole time working on having high APM NON-SPAM. I can hit the 170 - 230 range quite easily late game because there is soooooo much to do, and that's just my macro. I suck so I can't multitask with my micro very well, but in battles when you micro and also macro at the same time, your APM will shoot up like crazy. So when SC2 is out long enough for people to get really good at it, I predict that 200 + APMs will be a norm. I doubt 300+ APM will be around like it was in BW, for the obvious reasons. What AI do you play against? I can very easily beat every non-cheating AI I've tried... I need a sparring partner. I've been playing against the Dark green tea AI and the regular one, but mostly the dark green tea. I never cheese the ai of course because there wouldn't be any point to it so I always let the game run into the late stage where things would get pretty tough. I used to lose a lot to it, not because I couldn't keep it up, but because I wasn't doing what I needed to do at the right times. Which again is why being smart and knowing what to do should come before high APM. Now I'm able to beat the AI consistently on all match-ups during the late-game because it forced me to do good well timed transitions and put out the damage I needed to do WHERE I needed to do it (hitting a fresh expo rather than going straight for the main). So basically it was a lot of decision making training. I'm really looking forward to the beta coming back up. I never really massed games, but this month I massed a ton against the AIs so I want to see how much better I've gotten. I need a practice partner too, to play like 25+ games a day and work on our timing. I really want to get good at SC2 >.<
Problem is I'd have to alter my play-style considerably to "let it go long" because the usual build I do is 3 gate pressure into expand, but dark green tea just dies to 3 gate pressure... The only other openings i consistently do are pheonix (which dark green can't handle either) and my funky 1 gate robo early push (which dark green also dies to)...
I do have trouble if I keep myself to a NR10 or something against the comp, but that's not how I want to play in ladder...
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SC1, Testie was a REALLY low apm player and he beat stork and other big names relatively frequently. For sc2 im not sure but I dont think it requires as much as most people use in sc1. I play at 100-120 and it seems to be plenty.
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I firmly believe you can approve immensely if you up your APM. Back in BW it took me a few years to finally appreciate the importance of warming up your hands by spamming, and of being able to react to high pressure situations on the dot. Increasing your APM is like constantly being alert / warmed-up physically in warfare.
But to sympathize with you, I feel like APM is not a huge worry in sc2 for the first 10 minutes of the game... then as the game drags on, and you have more to manage, the additional actions for competitiveness are crucial.
And lastly, APM could show that the player is a disciplined gamer, and has developed respect for the game. =)
peace and love
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On July 05 2010 02:04 farseer_dk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 01:56 Snuggles wrote:On July 05 2010 01:44 farseer_dk wrote:On July 05 2010 01:41 Snuggles wrote:
120-150 is certainly enough for a good spot on the Diamond league.
Even though all of us pretty much agrees that you don't need an insane amount of APM to be successful, I'm pretty sure you'd need quite a bit as the game gets older and older.
I mean I play Zerg, I've been practicing with the AI this whole time working on having high APM NON-SPAM. I can hit the 170 - 230 range quite easily late game because there is soooooo much to do, and that's just my macro. I suck so I can't multitask with my micro very well, but in battles when you micro and also macro at the same time, your APM will shoot up like crazy. So when SC2 is out long enough for people to get really good at it, I predict that 200 + APMs will be a norm. I doubt 300+ APM will be around like it was in BW, for the obvious reasons. What AI do you play against? I can very easily beat every non-cheating AI I've tried... I need a sparring partner. I've been playing against the Dark green tea AI and the regular one, but mostly the dark green tea. I never cheese the ai of course because there wouldn't be any point to it so I always let the game run into the late stage where things would get pretty tough. I used to lose a lot to it, not because I couldn't keep it up, but because I wasn't doing what I needed to do at the right times. Which again is why being smart and knowing what to do should come before high APM. Now I'm able to beat the AI consistently on all match-ups during the late-game because it forced me to do good well timed transitions and put out the damage I needed to do WHERE I needed to do it (hitting a fresh expo rather than going straight for the main). So basically it was a lot of decision making training. I'm really looking forward to the beta coming back up. I never really massed games, but this month I massed a ton against the AIs so I want to see how much better I've gotten. I need a practice partner too, to play like 25+ games a day and work on our timing. I really want to get good at SC2 >.< Problem is I'd have to alter my play-style considerably to "let it go long" because the usual build I do is 3 gate pressure into expand, but dark green tea just dies to 3 gate pressure... The only other openings i consistently do are pheonix (which dark green can't handle either) and my funky 1 gate robo early push (which dark green also dies to)... I do have trouble if I keep myself to a NR10 or something against the comp, but that's not how I want to play in ladder...
Yeah that's the problem with that AI, it can't handle early pressure very well. If I decide to do a 10 or 12pool for early pressure, the AI just can't survive it. But late game it's great. It's still decent practice when you think about the players who are able to survive early pressure and play into the mid to late game, so if you can play on even footing with the AI late game then you should be pretty good.
Playing different Match-ups can obviously affect how good the AI will be for practice. Playing ZvT with a macro oriented build, its good. But if it's something like you playing the Terran race where you're suppose to do some timed early-mid game pushes then the AI can't survive =(.
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It's also probably something that's going to matter more and more as people map out how to play. At least at the casual levels, no one has quite mapped out what they are going to do.
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Dont have time to read 3 pages of this so forgive me if this has been mentioned already.
But here is what i think about apm:
Pro players dont have high apm because they play in mentality "i must do shit fast". Their APM is high because they remember to do all the small things, all the subtle changes, adjustments in their play, and as they do so, their apm rises naturally.
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Why do some people have the tendency to think the game is somehow flawed if someone with low apm can get into the higher leagues? In my opinion, it reflects that the game is more about strategy and timing then what people give it credit for.
I know I started in silver without having even played an rts online before. My apm was terrible and I knew I had to compensate because I couldn't just get it higher over night. What I could do was constantly refine and practice my build orders, learn how to adapt to my opponent, and make smart decisions that gave myself control of the game. Developing these attributes is what pushed me up to diamond league in a little under 2 months.
As I play more matches, my apm will get faster and it will only strengthen my play. I've beaten countless players who average 120-150 apm while I sit at my comfortable 50-60. Its these types of players who I think got into diamond not by having good strategy but by using their fast apm as a crutch.
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On July 05 2010 02:17 Sabu113 wrote:
It's also probably something that's going to matter more and more as people map out how to play. At least at the casual levels, no one has quite mapped out what they are going to do.
I think the leagues will become a lot better at indicating how skilled you are as time goes on. In terms of ICCUP ranks compared to the leagues, I believe most Diamond League players are D, and the players that are like 100 games to 2 or 3 losses are like C+ to B- players, that should belong in the Platinum league if there were more skilled players to even things out. So A- A players belong in Diamond.
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60 and im almost 1900 plat..
not sure how good you mean by real good though
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I believe figq is right. Day[9] said something that I think is most applicable in this context when talking about apm and analyzing differences in apm's between different levels of players... APM is important up until a certain point; obviously if you have 30-50 Macro APM and about 90 during a fight you will struggle, but above 120, it isn't about spamming commands, its about having a tight, clean style of play. If you are tight on timing, like having probes harvest as soon as the nexus pops, or during a fight hit your barracks hotkey and pump more units then go back to the fight, you should be good because you are doing things as fast as they should be done and aren't waiting until job 1 is complete before starting job 2. Multitasking is key, not serializing your commands.
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I think you have to go back and look at the very basics. How do you sit? Is your desk at the right height? Are you using a comfortable mouse?
Sit upright and in a relaxed position. Don't slouch, nor hunch forward either. Your elbows should be at a 90 degree angle when using the keyboard and mouse. The mouse should be comfortable; if you're constantly adjusting your hand then you might need a new one. I have a huge problem with that myself since my hand sweats when playing and I think the mouse is a bit to big for playing. Still trying to find a better mouse for me.
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Everyone should remember that this was actually beta, meaning a limited number of players. I think the distance of "player quality" between each of the leagues will increase, when the game actually goes live.
Instead of tens of thousands of players, we should be seeing hundreds of thousands of players. (If not more)
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I have the same problem (the APM one), except its worse. My APM during the whole game is really low, maybe because I hate spamming in the beginning of the game. Every time I try to spam I feel uncomfortable and tend to forget things, so I prefer not to do so. It is mainly because Im new to RTS and I know spamming isnt the most important thing to learn, it will come with time. Concentrate on the important part and as long as you can macro decently well you are fine, you are progressing.
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holy shit this thread make me take a look at my replays to see my apm, i only have 80. i thought i had like 110 or so, jesus.
i played like 180 in brood war, i guess sc2 just inspires me to be lazy. Anyway, i was like 1700 points on ladder when plat was highest with apparently 80 apm and i wasn't near peak. This game is so young that until you're hitting really high ranks you dont need to be that fast, as i learned by browsing my replays. I can still keep my money low and my unit control is fine with this amount, unless you're playing top level invitationals you can probably get away with being slow like me.
this game isnt like brood war where being fast = skill i guess, just play smart builds and eventually you'll start speeding up to meet what you need and improving.
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I think you just need to focus on getting as high an effective* rate of APM as possible. Anyone can spam and get 400APM (some euro amateur wc3 players do that) and they still get crushed by 200-300 APM pros. It is about being effective with your actions, like most people here seem to have said.
Yes you want it to be as high as possible, but not so much that it is a detriment to your play -ie, you spam more than you play-. The higher your effective APM is, the faster you are able to play essentially. At least that's how I personally view APM. Precision of your clicks is also a huge part of it, I find.
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I would like to remind you axslav is a good player with under 100 apm...
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On July 05 2010 03:01 Copperhead wrote:
I would like to remind you axslav is a good player with under 100 apm...
I would also like to remind you, I am almost positive that axslav has never won a major event in his life. He uses creative plays to win a few matches and beat some good players.
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just don't think about, keep remember the things you want to and just try do all of them as fast as you can, simultanously if needed and you're apm will just grow by itself. Don't bother yourself to much with that, it's actually pretty rewarding to win an oppenant that has twice your APM
Also you can spam like crazy early game and you're apm will get up but...that's something absolutely not important and can be sometimes verry bad
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On July 05 2010 00:57 farseer_dk wrote:
Does spamming at the start really help you get a "rhythm"? I've never ever felt like I've had a Starcraft "rhythm"... is that bad?
this is maybe the most interesting part of the post to me. for me personally (i'm another low-apm player), spamming at the beginning doesn't help me "warm up" much or anything. and its certainly true that you don't need as much apm in this game as you did in the previous one to be pretty good.
but every once in a while i have a game where i play way, way higher than my usual skill level. it's like being in the zone--i feel like i can do no wrong, and i know that i am doing much better than my opponent even if there hasn't been much fighting or anything. when that happens, i definitely feel like i've entered into some sort of "rhythm" that i don't usually have, and when i check the replays, i have much higher apm in these games.
so i'm not trying to say that high apm means that you will necessarily play better, but i do think that when you're playing your best, your apm will be higher, as a side effect of that "rhythm" that good players in any sport allude to.
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On July 05 2010 02:56 fams wrote:
Precision of your clicks is also a huge part of it, I find.
I just want to add that if you watch some FPVODs of players like Bisu, you'll find that they have insane accuracy and they tie it in together with speed for precision AND high APM, it's the most effective combo in general terms of mechanics. I don't think anyone has really tried to or is even capable of that sort of high level mechanics yet, but when they do it'll be amazing to watch and I bet a lot of us will change our opinions of the necessity of high APM in professional levels of play.
Aside from TL I noticed that people from other communities really look down on high apm as a method of "showing off" and a measurement of your epeen, but they really don't understand that when your APM becomes naturally high, it's very beneficial.
Plus when you try to explain it to other people they seem to automatically reject it and try to force their "correct" versions of the argument as stubbornly as possible =P. I think Day9 mentioned something like this in a daily.
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You can be pretty good with <100 APM currently, but I don't think that will always be the case. Most games don't progress past 2-base play, even in Diamond league, so low APM is sufficient. However, once players develop the skills and the builds to play very economically but still defend against rush/cheese, the faster players will always win.
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On the subject of whether or not keeping up a high APM at the start (spamming actions or just switching ctrl groups) helps you keep rhythm or not:
I think this is just person to person. I read a few comments saying it doesn't help them. However for me personally, I find it keeps the constant reminder of "hey you need to be doing stuff, all the time...stop stalling and keep playing".
However sometimes I get caught up in my train of thought while I do switch ctrl groups quickly or spam actions, and end up missing a timing in my BO or I don't notice a scout or something that I regularly would have, and it puts me very far behind, very early. So, I think if it helps, use it, if not, don' bother, you have other faults you need to remedy, go work on them instead.
That is just my opinion.
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very good APM is far to bigged up, i understand a good APM rate is needed however it is no the be all and end all and it annoys the hell out of me to watch replays where players are just randomly clicking to get a 200+ APM its just soft!
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75 - 120 APM should be sufficient to get you up to Diamond rank - provided you are effectively using all of your APM, essentially it takes about that much APM to do a perfect macro-game, so as long as you know WHERE to be using your micro, you should be fine with that.
Besides, as you keep playing and get more comfortable with builds and unit control your APM will go up. I was at 65 APM when I started WC3, and when I quit playing I was at 120 average, with 200+ spikes. It takes time, but the micro will come, just focus on having rock-solid macro for the time being.
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For me personally APM is a mental thing. I am not a high APM player naturally but I can be if I really want to. I think if you're doing the constant spam and moving around real quick then mentally you're more focused on the game. For me I find that if I just do the mandatory clicks then just kind of wait until something needs to be done I get distracted from my build order or my micro slips (I also have terrible ADHD so a fly trapped between a window and a certain keeps me entertained for the next 2 hours) but I really do think the more you're doing, the more you're focused. However, if you can stay focused just fine and are still doing quite well with low APM then hey go for it!
Also, first post on TL :-D
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As stated many times before doing the right things is more important. As you remember to do more things you will also increase in APM. This will come naturally i believe, i'm kinda in the same situation as you. Got to low diamond with around 60-70, with the more practice i will remember more things and my APM will start improving.
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Plenty of good players out there with just 70-80ish APM. It's about making the right decisions. Your APM will just rise with time probably.
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Do not think of APM in a way by " oh i need to be more pro, i need more apm, spam spam spam!" You have to get that idea out of your head. Knowing how much is your apm is not gonna help. What u need is your mental state when u are playing the game. Like every second u gotta think of ur worker production, keep looking at your supply, keep producing units, keep watching your money flow. All these will have to be in your mind as you fight battles, as you move your units around, the moment u think too much about ur units u will begin to forget, and forget to do stuff, hence lower APM. If u keep this mental state up, eventually u will see ur apm rising to 100+ at least becuz u naturally need to click more
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On July 05 2010 00:57 farseer_dk wrote:
So do you guys think that it's possible to be a diamond league, division top 10 SC2 player with 70 apm?
This, I don't understand what ppl r getting this from but
DIVISIONS DOESN'T COUNT IN ANY WAY IN YOUR SKILL
I mean the first 100 who get into diamond will obviously be in division 1, and the next hundred in division 2 etc..
it has nothing to do with skill, you don't ever get promoted to a "better" or "worse" division, cus there's no such thing
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On July 05 2010 03:32 Zed.iii wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 00:57 farseer_dk wrote:
So do you guys think that it's possible to be a diamond league, division top 10 SC2 player with 70 apm? This, I don't understand what ppl r getting this from but DIVISIONS DOESN'T COUNT IN ANY WAY IN YOUR SKILL I mean the first 100 who get into diamond will obviously be in division 1, and the next hundred in division 2 etc.. it has nothing to do with skill, you don't ever get promoted to a "better" or "worse" division, cus there's no such thing
He probably meant that top10 in his division.
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Even the OP said that there's a degree of laziness associated with his lack of APM...
I think the best mindset to approach the game is: "I want to achieve the highest APM I can"
and not: "I can play competitively with a low APM, booyah"
... like "APM" is some sort of precious commodity... it's ridiculous.
peace and love
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On July 05 2010 03:32 Zed.iii wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 00:57 farseer_dk wrote:
So do you guys think that it's possible to be a diamond league, division top 10 SC2 player with 70 apm? This, I don't understand what ppl r getting this from but DIVISIONS DOESN'T COUNT IN ANY WAY IN YOUR SKILL I mean the first 100 who get into diamond will obviously be in division 1, and the next hundred in division 2 etc.. it has nothing to do with skill, you don't ever get promoted to a "better" or "worse" division, cus there's no such thing
I don't believe it works that way. As I recall, they create divisions with about 50 at a time and then evenly populate across a number of them, rather than just waterfalling one at a time.
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On July 05 2010 03:40 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 03:32 Zed.iii wrote:On July 05 2010 00:57 farseer_dk wrote:
So do you guys think that it's possible to be a diamond league, division top 10 SC2 player with 70 apm? This, I don't understand what ppl r getting this from but DIVISIONS DOESN'T COUNT IN ANY WAY IN YOUR SKILL I mean the first 100 who get into diamond will obviously be in division 1, and the next hundred in division 2 etc.. it has nothing to do with skill, you don't ever get promoted to a "better" or "worse" division, cus there's no such thing I don't believe it works that way. As I recall, they create divisions with about 50 at a time and then evenly populate across a number of them, rather than just waterfalling one at a time.
nonetheless, his point was that divisions don't matter, just league.
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@zed.iii
i think he mean top 10 in your own devision not in the division 1-10.
EDIT: lol in the time i wrote this 4 people post the same oo
i think everything was said.
so i just agree with the ones who mean its total ok to have apm under 100.
and i agree with the ones who said to be the best you need more.
but comeon i will never be one of the best and so 99,9% of you guys.
dont "train" apm just train playing and your apm will increase.
if it dont increase, no problem just focus on making the right moves.
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I was top 20 platinum player before they had diamond. My average APM is about 60, but in battles when I'm doing micro and macro, my APM shoots to close to 200.
I'm not actually sure what I can be doing to increase my average APM. When I watch players like TLO play, they all have like 160 average APM. Maybe I just need to watch my replays.
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Ask Grubby from WC3. Never having high APM, dominating the pro scene for a long time.
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It's fine IMO. The people that brag they've got 200 apm are the people that spam usually. All that APM isn't going to help if you don't know what to do with it. I'd concentrate on doing things right (including watching replays) first and naturally you'll get faster over time and be able to do what you want to do.
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On July 05 2010 03:50 Manit0u wrote:
Ask Grubby from WC3. Never having high APM, dominating the pro scene for a long time.
Define 'high APM'.
Grubby has about 240...
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You're asking the wrong question.
Don't ask how good you can get with your current APM. Ask how good you can get. Period. APM does affect how good you are, but it is also affected BY how good you are. Just focus on getting as good as you can, regardless of APM. Your APM will go up as your skill with the game does.
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On July 05 2010 00:58 Whalecore wrote:
Really good.
Focus on remember doing the right actions instead of doing actions fast, and you'll become a great player.
I agree i watched Day[9] daily i don't remember which one was it but He told about it that you don't need to have huge apm like 400 but remember all this little things many low etc. and APM will come in time because after time you will have to make "actions" faster
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I can't stress enough that APM comes naturally. I remember years ago when I had 80 APM and all my friends were like wow you're so fast. (They never played BW)... And then I learn about iccup and TL and wtf. Good apm here is atleast 200. I guess I just dont have talent to get better.
Overtime you will see increase in use of hotkeys, higher accuracy and you WILL get faster. I do think there is a pretty clear limit to how far you can go with 90 APM, maybe less defined than in BW but nontheless. Just don't worry about APM, just focus on getting everything done, and they you will see that you have time to squeeze in a few more actions in certain parts of the game with focus. And then later you you will be able to do it with ease. Focusing on your APM is the worst way to learn is how I'd put it. Then you end up spamming etc. Just worry about the mechanics and not APM. Hope it helps.
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play brood war, you have to do so much more micro/macro.
also, apm comes naturally. if you keep playing your apm willl rise, proven fact.
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my apm was around 70 i was a rank 1/2 (1800+) platinum/diamond player. but yeah a lot of the problems i started having in the later stages of beta was because i was too slow.
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Types of actions:
- automatic - spawning larvae, creating more units, etc
- thoughtfull - related to the strategy, which buildings to build, how many when and where, researches, etc
- micro - controling units
1st one comes with practice and repetition, 2nd with experience and knowledge, 3rd with practice and knowledge.
It's bad to put APM as an objective. APM is something that comes along when needed as you improve. As long as you do the right actions, there's no reason to not be pro with medium APM. But if it makes you feel good about yourself you can spam at the beginning of matches and get an average of 500 APM - perhaps more if you're a really fast clicker - , so even if you suck at APM it'll take time for the mean to get low.
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On July 05 2010 03:56 Conventer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 00:58 Whalecore wrote:
Really good.
Focus on remember doing the right actions instead of doing actions fast, and you'll become a great player. I agree i watched Day[9] daily i don't remember which one was it but He told about it that you don't need to have huge apm like 400 but remember all this little things many low etc. and APM will come in time because after time you will have to make "actions" faster
This. Day9 also said that your APM will taper off as the game progress with the exception of bursts during battles.
APM is really just remembering to do things. If you remember to do everything you will naturally have a higher APM because you will... well be doing more.
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You can easily achieve Rank 1 Diamond with 70 in-game APM, like me.
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Wow, I feel like I could have written that original post. I run around 70 apm now, as I've been rusty from not playing PC RTSes for ages. And like you, I feel like a lot of my low apm is attributed to laziness. Every once in a while I'll mentally slap myself and say "hey, stop being a lazy dick and do more stuff" and I can burst 120-140 but then my mind wanders and I drop back into my 70 apm.
I got #1 diamond with 70 apm, although I am a very sparse clicker and generally never spam-click. So you can definitely get high diamond with your apm now, at least at this stage in the game.
I actually think I would benefit from that Razer keyboard just as a mental reminder that I'm being lazy, or even better, hook an APM counter up to an airhorn and have it honk every time I go below a certain APM.
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increasing your apm definitely has diminishing returns - there are only so many useful keys to hit.
but I don't think it's productive to worry about apm. It should be more productive to worry about positioning all your units correctly, using your macro abilities all the time, being able to execute multiple attacks at once... i.e. focusing on the reasons that more actions will improve your game rather than the rate of the actions themselves
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You're low apm must be countered by your high intellect. There is no other way.
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On July 05 2010 04:13 link0 wrote:
You can easily achieve Rank 1 Diamond with 70 in-game APM, like me.
I wouldn't emphasize that too much.
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I don't think people should be worried about apm as much as they are. Increasing apm does have its benefits, such as better multitasking, but also has its drawbacks. For me, when I try to spam and play faster, I usually end up making mistakes, such as forgetting supply depots or not macroing correctly. Thus, I feel like you should not focus on increasing apm, but just focus on doing other things, such as macroing. Over time, I bet you you will see your apm rising, while having improved at playing the game.
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On July 05 2010 00:59 Melt wrote:
in SC2 you need about half the APM than in SCBW, so around 150 should be ok to do pretty much everything you need/want to do (especially as protoss who don't require quite as much APM as Terran or Zerg).
From where did u pull out this totally bs stat
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On July 05 2010 04:27 die.terran wrote:
I don't think people should be worried about apm as much as they are. Increasing apm does have its benefits, such as better multitasking, but also has its drawbacks. For me, when I try to spam and play faster, I usually end up making mistakes, such as forgetting supply depots or not macroing correctly. Thus, I feel like you should not focus on increasing apm, but just focus on doing other things, such as macroing. Over time, I bet you you will see your apm rising, while having improved at playing the game.
The idea of apm isn't spamming and only useful apm matters. So I don't get what drawbacks there is.
If you spam yourself an 200 apm and misclick in the process it's not a useful apm, but if you have 200 apm and still hit everything you want. It's just a good thing.
But I agree with your solution, that you just should focus on playing correctly and the apm will increase by itself
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On July 05 2010 04:28 Darkren wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 00:59 Melt wrote:
in SC2 you need about half the APM than in SCBW, so around 150 should be ok to do pretty much everything you need/want to do (especially as protoss who don't require quite as much APM as Terran or Zerg). From where did u pull out this totally bs stat
This stat definetly isn't true. When someone says how much APM you need, how does number get chosen?... Higher APM is ALWAYS better than lower APM. 150 APM is enough to play at diamond level for sure but 200 APM with same effeciency will be stronger, there is always more APM needed for better micro, better macro mechanics etc. Overall SC2 is a game where strategy is more important than the other things in the game, and we don't need to deny that fact.
I do think the APM needed for all races is pretty equal in SC2... And well 150 might not be a bad number to be honest. 150 APM will get you diamond, and in SC1 with 250 APM you can play at B level. I do think as the overall skill level of the game increases so will the needed APM to compete with the competition.
[EDIT]: Learning APM is like learning a language. You learn it the best just by playing, not analysing stuff like this.
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Height and APM are about the same thing. In the NBA, after you reach a certain height, you can only get so much better. After about 6'2 for example, it doesn't really matter how tall you are when you are competing. The best player in the game was 6'6 - Michael Jordan. If you're 7'6 like Shawn Bradley, it doesn't guarantee you will be the best.
You can also compare IQ and APM. After a certain IQ - 120, you are deemed a genius. If you have a 195 IQ, it doesn't mean that you will be highly successful. Christopher Langan had a 195 IQ and he is a bouncer. What it takes to be successful at this game is creativity. These are the kind of people who wins Nobel Prizes - not everyone above 120 will have one.
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APM is the gearscore of SC!!1!
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
When I actively played BW, the guy who was the best among my friends had 80-90 APM. He had a 90% winrate even against those of us who had ~200 APM. But I guess he was exceptionally talented.
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I wonder how many of the people giving advice in this thread are actually platinum.
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SC2 doesn't need any APM at all so you'll be fine if you just go a bit faster
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On July 05 2010 04:01 Skillz_Man wrote:
I can't stress enough that APM comes naturally.
I think this is well said. Also someone else mentioned that forcing your apm up by spamming can cause you to make mistakes. This is also well-said
Forcibly spamming will make you lose focus on what you're about to do. That's happened to me when I tried to copy NaDa's first person fingering back in BW... it was such a mess because it was like trying to build a complicated house with a simple blueprint.
To generalize, higher APM accompanied by experience allows for the player to execute almost everything in-game with greater precision and effect.
A crude example of the positive APM to precision/effect correlation would be control of the initial worker scout:
If one's intent is basic recon, then a few commands issued to the worker would be sufficient. Utilization of the scout to accomplish minor harassment such as manner gas or even dancing around the base, requires subsequently higher APM. More difficult harassment such as indefinitely occupying an enemy mineral patch (issuing stop / gather commands intermittently) would require even a greater degree of alertness and APM.
So upon further reflection, I really don't think anyone should encourage complacency at a so-called competitive APM of 120 or even 150... If more pew pew is desired in sc2, then more apm must be utilized!
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On July 05 2010 05:33 SCC-Faust wrote:
I wonder how many of the people giving advice in this thread are actually platinum.
Probably most since the leagues got redone. :p
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On July 05 2010 03:06 fams wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 03:01 Copperhead wrote:
I would like to remind you axslav is a good player with under 100 apm... I would also like to remind you, I am almost positive that axslav has never won a major event in his life. He uses creative plays to win a few matches and beat some good players.
i agree he hasnt won many event on sc2 yet...but on wc3 he did...with 4x less apm than his oppenent....yeah so i see already see some troll say: yeah but wc3 is skilless and doesnt require apm.... yeah sure that what most sc player say...and most wc3 player say the same thing about sc
im not saying if a game require more skill than the other...idc much about this....my point is acording to many people...axslav was one of the best random wc3 player in the world...(idk if its true or not http://www.mymym.com/en/article/804.html )
im not saying apm isnt important or apm is important...im just saying its not because you dont have 200 apm it means your bad....or if you have above 200 apm your good! nah
As my self...ive been rank 1 in MOST last reset ...and i have around 100 apm...which i beleive is low
(sorry if my english suck im doing my best )
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This is really just asking how good can you be with only solid strategy but poor mechanics. I'd say whatever level you reach focusing only on one of those things, you can be twice as good if you improve at the other.
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APM is a pretty meaningless bench mark, playing fast means that you know what you're doing. I've played Strategy games since the original Warcraft: Orcs and Humans, but I've never played to the extent that I'd consider my self a professional. Having stated that, I do get fairly comfortable with these games quickly, using hot keys, short-cuts, and implementing strategy. I started the beta during the first wave of "Friend Invites" and place as a Silver player. My APM was only around 40 when I started, and it ended up topping out at around 85 when I was at 1600 Platinum(before diamond). Sure, there was plenty of time for me to improve, and that benchmark of speed will increase over time. But remember, being better at what you're doing and performing a strategy properly is more important than some benchmark. Also, in just playing better, there's a chance your APM will increase naturally.
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Boxer used to always kick ass with 150 apm and BW was a much more intensive game in terms of APM. I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.
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matrix quote!
Morpheus: How did I beat you?
Neo: You... you're too fast.
Morpheus: Do you believe that my being stronger or faster has anything to do with my muscles in this place?
APM can be low or high through the entire game doesnt matter, as long as your reactions and accuary are good at key moments when there needed you'll be fine.
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you are thinking about this the wrong way. Your APM will naturally improve as you keep playing the game, for now focus on PLAYING BETTER and fixing holes in your style...eventually your APM will be going up and up and you won't even notice it. Actively thinking about your APM and its relevance to your skill level is either nonproductive or detrimental.
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Keep improving and APM will follow.
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It's definitely more important to see what's going on, to click the right things, and to have proper strategy than to fly your vision all over the place and then afterward say "yea I thought he had 4 but he had 7", "I miss clicked the upgrade and didn't realize for 20 seconds", "I didn't realize I had 2 in that gas the entire game", or "I had a phoenix sitting in the corner the entire game unused".
Things that you should slow down for, regardless of how skilled you are. For the vast majority of games once you start bumping around 200 anything additional ends up being a distraction from accuracy ( and likely a strain on your eyes and mind that will just make you worse. ). The only reason it was necessary in brood war was because of the macro mechanics( or lack there of ). In SC2, not necessary. You need about 60-70APM for macro and about 60-70 additional APM for each battle going on, so you should be around 200 if you are macro-ing, fighting a main battle, and fighting a side battle.
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I have been #1 diamond in 2's,3's, and 4's with only 61apm average. I think 70's is sufficient to be pretty good but against the top 1:1 players you will need closer to 100. Keep your actions efficient and remember to do the basics and I think you will do well.
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imo apm doesn't really matter for the casual gamers. However, to reach the top of the ladder, you'll need to work on your apm, which should go up with regularly playing anyway, because you're competing against mostly bw players with incredibly high apm. Their apm might decrease minutely from bw to sc2, but it's high enough to tackle the highest multitasking in sc2, at least better suited compared to someone with an average apm. You're going to be at a disadvantage especially in the late games because of this.
APM isn't like your IQ per say. It'll gradually increase with time so don't get your hopes down.
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The first time I tested my apm in an rts game I went about 60. At my peak I have been over 200. I have never done anything to work on apm.
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In sc2, APM doesn't matter much unlike in scbw. In sc2, I play around 150-200 APM, most of it is ineffective (such as clicking the same spot many times), and there is simply nothing more I can think of doing.
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Having been on the pro gaming scene for a while back in the age series, I got a chance to see a lot of players live. One reason some of the pro's are extremely high (180 SC2 or so) is that they basically "spaz out" while they are thinking, IE clicking a waypoint a million times while they decide where to park their army. They obviously do this off the start as well to get that spike while nothing is going on.
In the largest tournament I ever played in (50K first place) I tried to match the Korean players (CNS_Grunt) APM and made some very simple errors which helped lose the game. Dont every try to increase APM just because. Only work on it if your brain is telling you to do more but you just cant get to it. In order to effectively use all 100 APM or more you need to be thinking ahead and really know the game first I believe.
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I am low diamond rank with 35 APM average... Yes.. 35
During heavy battles I touch 80apm. IMO SC2 is more about the build order and dirty tactics than battle management.
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in BW, i steadily climb, (almost 10-15 a week or so when playing heavily) and have currently about 120-130 in a non spamming game. In SC2, i am usually around 60-70, but i was #1 platinum at the end of the beta.
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On July 05 2010 05:24 wsfosho wrote:
Height and APM are about the same thing. In the NBA, after you reach a certain height, you can only get so much better. After about 6'2 for example, it doesn't really matter how tall you are when you are competing. The best player in the game was 6'6 - Michael Jordan. If you're 7'6 like Shawn Bradley, it doesn't guarantee you will be the best.
You can also compare IQ and APM. After a certain IQ - 120, you are deemed a genius. If you have a 195 IQ, it doesn't mean that you will be highly successful. Christopher Langan had a 195 IQ and he is a bouncer. What it takes to be successful at this game is creativity. These are the kind of people who wins Nobel Prizes - not everyone above 120 will have one.
you're wrong
creativity only goes so far, mechanics prevail after the strats have been discovered. nobel prize winners aren't the best players, or in this case just because i invented 14 pool doesn't mean i am the best.
once this game is live and people start playing it apm will matter a lot more, once you get to a higher level i think this game will become more of a macro game again. right now it seems like 80% of my matches are 2base 3base rather then intense macro games. that's just because this game is new and timings haven't been mapped out. play more, macro more, train more and your apm will increase.
mechanics matter, and i don't think we'll be able to macro 5 bases with 70 apm.
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On July 05 2010 00:59 Melt wrote:
in SC2 you need about half the APM than in SCBW, so around 150 should be ok to do pretty much everything you need/want to do (especially as protoss who don't require quite as much APM as Terran or Zerg).
Thats simply not true. Years will tell how much APM you need.
APM is also counted differently so its completely impossible to compare.
There are already players with >200 sc2 apm wich should be >300-400 bw APM so i think koreans will end up with about the same APM numbers as the game developes.
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United States5162 Posts
On July 05 2010 08:02 TheDna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 00:59 Melt wrote:
in SC2 you need about half the APM than in SCBW, so around 150 should be ok to do pretty much everything you need/want to do (especially as protoss who don't require quite as much APM as Terran or Zerg). Thats simply not true. Years will tell how much APM you need. APM is also counted differently so its completely impossible to compare. There are already players with >200 sc2 apm wich should be >300-400 bw APM so i think koreans will end up with about the same APM numbers as the game developes.
While I agree that he pulled the figure out of his ass, I don't think you can argue that BW doesn't require more APM than SC2 just because of automine and MBS. Maybe high level players will figure out ways to put more APM to good use, but right now after a certain point you're just clicking extra and not really getting anything out of it.
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APM isn't as important as knowing what to do in what situation, especially with the "early aggression and timing" you spoke of.
As posted above, the timing of your accuracy/precision with macro/micro is most important, it's my personal opinion that 15%-25% of all players' APM is due to extra (and un-needed) actions {Please don't destroy me if you disagree}.
Please watch your replays, I was like you once but it actually works
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The basis of this thread and 90% of the replies are pointless. APM is NOT a measure of skill, it may be correlated with skill but again, IT IS NOT A MEASURE OF SKILL. All of these "u ned 2 hav liek 100+ apm if u wana b da numba 1 playa" replies are so far off from reality. You should simply be looking for productive things to do with your time as you play as opposed to thinking about what you could click on to boost your APM. As long as you are doing everything you need to be doing, you can be the best player in the entire universe, and if you are doing everything you need to be doing, your APM will naturally be "higher". I say "higher" because, again, APM is ONLY CORRELATED WITH SKILL, nothing more.
Dramatized example: I want to move my drone from my main to my natural, I can:
a) guide my drone to my natural by clicking nine thousand and one times on my natural, or
b) click once on my natural
"actions" for (a): 9002
"actions" for (b): 2
Result? Exactly the same.
It is for this reason that the common phrase "BW REQUIRES MOAR APM DEN SC2 SO LIEK U NED 2 HAV ' X ' AMOUNT OF APM 2 B COMPETITIV IN BW" is stupid. BW does not require more APM, there are simply more things that need to be done, and more often in BW. i.e. you cannot "s" larva, and hold "d" to turn all your larvae into drones in two button presses in BW, but you have to manually go to each hatchery and do it. This is an example of having to do the same thing more often. And the lack of automine in BW means that you have to manually move your workers onto mineral patches, an example of more things that need to be done. Thus, you are most likely going to have a "higher" APM in BW, but there is no magic APM range that you NEED to be in to be a competitive player.
I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the contributors in this thread were sporting the new razer flashybutton APM tracking mouse. Focus on doing what you need to do and stop wasting your time worrying about useless statistics such as APM if you have any hope of being good at this game.
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United States5162 Posts
On July 05 2010 10:21 torm wrote:
It is for this reason that the common phrase "BW REQUIRES MOAR APM DEN SC2 SO LIEK U NED 2 HAV ' X ' AMOUNT OF APM 2 B COMPETITIV IN BW" is stupid. BW does not require more APM, there are simply more things that need to be done, and more often in BW. i.e. you cannot "s" larva, and hold "d" to turn all your larvae into drones in two button presses in BW, but you have to manually go to each hatchery and do it. This is an example of having to do the same thing more often. And the lack of automine in BW means that you have to manually move your workers onto mineral patches, an example of more things that need to be done. Thus, you are most likely going to have a "higher" APM in BW, but there is no magic APM range that you NEED to be in to be a competitive player.
Seriously? You explained in your own post why BW requires more APM than SC2. To get the same thing done you need more clicks, thus more APM. Of course the game doesn't absolutely require anything, but to be good it does.
There is a minimum amount of APM you need to get everything done. I play(pretty poorly) at around 60 APM and I'm pretty efficient about it(I don't click things extra or spam my hotkeys for no reason) and I feel like I can't manage everything going on once I get past 2 bases.
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right now APM of 70 should be sufficient. However when the beta closes and the real game begins apm of 70 won't be nearly enough to be close to top. BW at the start was more about what you build, what you do with the APM and how efficient you can make the build work. However as time went by APM (speed) became more important because large number of people figured out how to use builds efficiently and where to use their APM on. So people needed something "extra" to win. Right now creativity and efficient builds will push you to the top but eventually APM will be the deciding factor. Unless someone is willing to suggest a person with low APM can get into A or B or even C in ICCup.
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I think Day9 brought this up a few dailies back, but basically, your APM is typically based on your familiarity with the game and your chosen build orders. As you practice and ultimately memorize your build order you should see an increase in your APM, the thing slowing you down is not your physical reflexes but your mental multitasking ability. Once you have a build memorized you can focus on controlling troops instead of deciding which unit/building to build and where to build it.
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I think a much more apt comparison to APM/SC ability is running speed and soccer (or UF). Running speed both refers to spontaneous speed in intense moments (defending an attack at the goal, or micro during battles), as well as overall endurance/average apm. In both cases, APM/speed is a part of overall "mechanical" skill (other skills being passing or sim city construction). At the ultimate end of the spectrum, 0 APM/movement, you will never win a game, period. For average players, (copper-plat, or pickup games), speed is certainly beneficial factor, but a team with slow players can certainly win with superior positioning, teamwork and tactics.
However, it's also very much possible to have inferior teamwork, tactics, positioning and still beat (even decimate) an opponent simply due to better mechanics. And at a competitive level, good apm/speed is a requisite for good play.
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You don't want a really low APM. But when I say that I don't mean you should spam APM just for the sake of spamming. As you improve in SC2, you'll find that your APM just gets higher because you have a better understanding of what you want to do so you'll end up just doing it faster. When I started playing the beta my APM was about 60, but as I got better it quickly went up to 120.
I'd say aim for 120-170 apm. Any higher is unnecessary, any lower and you potentially won't be working as fast as your opponent and it can put you behind.
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On July 05 2010 09:43 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 08:02 TheDna wrote:On July 05 2010 00:59 Melt wrote:
in SC2 you need about half the APM than in SCBW, so around 150 should be ok to do pretty much everything you need/want to do (especially as protoss who don't require quite as much APM as Terran or Zerg). Thats simply not true. Years will tell how much APM you need. APM is also counted differently so its completely impossible to compare. There are already players with >200 sc2 apm wich should be >300-400 bw APM so i think koreans will end up with about the same APM numbers as the game developes. While I agree that he pulled the figure out of his ass, I don't think you can argue that BW doesn't require more APM than SC2 just because of automine and MBS. Maybe high level players will figure out ways to put more APM to good use, but right now after a certain point you're just clicking extra and not really getting anything out of it.
Right now the game isnt even released
I m curious if you even find sc classic beta replays with players having >50 APM
Because thats where we are right now with sc2!
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United States5162 Posts
On July 05 2010 12:25 TheDna wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 09:43 Myles wrote:On July 05 2010 08:02 TheDna wrote:On July 05 2010 00:59 Melt wrote:
in SC2 you need about half the APM than in SCBW, so around 150 should be ok to do pretty much everything you need/want to do (especially as protoss who don't require quite as much APM as Terran or Zerg). Thats simply not true. Years will tell how much APM you need. APM is also counted differently so its completely impossible to compare. There are already players with >200 sc2 apm wich should be >300-400 bw APM so i think koreans will end up with about the same APM numbers as the game developes. While I agree that he pulled the figure out of his ass, I don't think you can argue that BW doesn't require more APM than SC2 just because of automine and MBS. Maybe high level players will figure out ways to put more APM to good use, but right now after a certain point you're just clicking extra and not really getting anything out of it. Right now the game isnt even released I m curious if you even find sc classic beta replays with players having >50 APM Because thats where we are right now with sc2!
No, were not. I buy the SC2 in a new game so we don't know all the possible strategies, but the mechanics are pretty much the same, just easier. Unless a bunch of micro-intensive tricks are found, SC2 won't require as high of APM to keep up with everything. I'd like to think it's possible, but I don't think the odds are good.
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Wow every response so far has been so dumb.
I am by no means a pro gamer only a top5 platty but I can reason the value of apm easily and I am sure everyone can.
How much apm do we need to send probes to mind and make a robe?
10?
How much apm do we need to move 7 stalkers from hotkey 1 to point A and move 3 zealots to point B from htokey 2 and create 2 guardian shields and 3 accurate force fields and then individually blinking stalkers to the back and at the same time chrono boosting your warp gates and making a probe on your natural and building another forge and gateway all at the same instance?
500?
My point is apm on itself is an arbitrary useless number.
What you should be looking at is the Apm/Anpm
actions per minute over actions needed per minute to create 100% efficient macro+micro
whitera may have 120apm and kick ass but that is 120 AVERAGE apl that does not mean Jack shit. Look at whitera when he's battling with 3 bases, his apm goes well above 200 and even ten you can see whiteras macro is not anything near efficient, but hel, the only person that seems to do better Is idra who has 250+ apm from pure macro (who also happened to practice 12 hours a day)
husky caster a game between tlo and sen where they were both scouting and fiddling with their probes, their apm was over 300. Yet tlos avrg apm is only about 150max, goes to show you how bullshit average apm is.
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my apm jumps back and forth between 90-130 (average 95-105) in an actual game, but i still manage to keep myself between rank 6-12 diamond before beta went down. i know some players with lower apm who did better, and players with way higher apm who did a lot worse.
imo, even with a 70-100 apm, anyone can have the potential to be really good, just as long as those clicks and keyboard strokes are efficient. right now, i'm even trying to practice being as efficient with my micro/macro with fewer clicks. that way, when my apm does go up, i'd know it's coz i'm doing more productive stuff, not just coz i'm clicking the move command more times than necessary.
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Gaining the APM won't help you get awhole lot better, but getting better will help you gain APM.
The more one plays in similar circumstances, the more they will remember to do and queue up commands in their head. Once you know WHAT to do, your hands and fingers will get better and better at doing those things faster. If you are playing by instinct / memory (from having practiced and having a large queue in your head) then your APM will increase naturally in that fashion. If your playing by reaction / visually then you will tend to have less apm as the queue in your mind isn't filling as fast.
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I would recommend also hotkeying all your production facilities to one hotkey and getting used to tabbing between them as it helps you to be able to macro WHILE battling to avoid any potential micro mistakes. Once you get it down its easy.
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On July 05 2010 01:15 Selemender wrote:
High AMP's are mostly from spamming so if you only count the AMP of the non spamming you probable get under the 100 but I feel by spamming you are more focused and you can respond easier when it can gets micro intensive. You also have to be very precise with you timing when non spamming so I think it makes stuff easier by spamming
I tried the whole spamming approach and I found it incredibly distracting and my play tends to suffer. That is, I get so focused on spamming that I forget to do actual useful actions. The only times I spam is when I'm clicking units to move, but I think everyone has that habit (and actually useful to click move ASAP instead of waiting for your cursor to get into position).
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I've been looking at my apm over the course of a whole game since beta went down and I got a replay launcher, and I've found that I was pulling top ten plat near the end of the beta on 40-50 apm average with spikes topping at 80, as terran.
I went back and analyzed my actions... I don't spam, I click move once, and I focus more on macro and scouting than micro. However, I do feel like I can't act fast enough in certain tough micro fights... endgame TvP where I need to stim, EMP, PDD, and be microing particular units the whole time is really hard. And a lot of the time I'll feel like I'm running on a time delay because my actions are a few seconds behind where my mind is at... this is more pronounced when I'm watching a replay from my camera, and when I've measured my apm against what I think while I watch a replay, it's at least 20 apm slower than I'm thinking.
I don't feel like I'll really break top 20% diamond until I can hit 120 eapm spikes and average 70 or better. That seems to be about the magic number for keeping up with what I want to do, at least in game as it stands right now.
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APM doesn't mean jack shit.
Also the higher your APM, the higher the chances you'll misclick things around/a short lag will delay a command/etc and you'll provoke your own doom. Like in that replay where (i think) Nazgul accidentally morphed all his templars into archons because a short lag didn't register him clicking his other stack of units.
Gotta know how the game COUNTS APM too. Every click & hotkey is an action. Selecting a hatchery + selecting all larvaes + 7x drones + rally point = 10 actions. Do that with 3 hatcheries and it's 30 actions in 3-4 seconds, meaning an APM of ~600 provided you've hotkeyed them all.
It's pure and straight idiocy to believe high apm = skill.
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On July 05 2010 12:38 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2010 12:25 TheDna wrote:On July 05 2010 09:43 Myles wrote:On July 05 2010 08:02 TheDna wrote:On July 05 2010 00:59 Melt wrote:
in SC2 you need about half the APM than in SCBW, so around 150 should be ok to do pretty much everything you need/want to do (especially as protoss who don't require quite as much APM as Terran or Zerg). Thats simply not true. Years will tell how much APM you need. APM is also counted differently so its completely impossible to compare. There are already players with >200 sc2 apm wich should be >300-400 bw APM so i think koreans will end up with about the same APM numbers as the game developes. While I agree that he pulled the figure out of his ass, I don't think you can argue that BW doesn't require more APM than SC2 just because of automine and MBS. Maybe high level players will figure out ways to put more APM to good use, but right now after a certain point you're just clicking extra and not really getting anything out of it. Right now the game isnt even released I m curious if you even find sc classic beta replays with players having >50 APM Because thats where we are right now with sc2! No, were not. I buy the SC2 in a new game so we don't know all the possible strategies, but the mechanics are pretty much the same, just easier. Unless a bunch of micro-intensive tricks are found, SC2 won't require as high of APM to keep up with everything. I'd like to think it's possible, but I don't think the odds are good.
Ofc microtricks will be found, it took years to find stuff like mutamicro in bw.. It will just take alot of time. Also everybody is playing very poorly atm nobody is anywhere near perfection. No harrase no midgame splitattacks etc.
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I'll preface this with the fact that I never played BW. But APM is a ridiculous thing to base much stuff on. Watch someone who has a really high APM - and how many times do they click more then once to move a unit? How many wasted clicks do they have? Instead of glorifying APM, ask yourself what actions you can take out. What clicks are wasted - how can you streamline your mechanics.
What matters is how much stuff you get done - and, ideally, getting your APM as low as possible to do so. Instead of saying wow, I had 200 APM that game - ask yourself if you needed 200 APM to do what you did. Do the right actions, at the right time, as easily and smoothly as possible. If what you are trying requires 200 APM, then so be it - but you'll get to the point of doing everything you need to do a lot faster if you cut out the extra crap.
Ignore your APM. Instead look at every game you played and ask yourself what you didn't do that you should have done, and try to do that next time. Obviously your APM will go up over time, but that isn't the point of anything. Ideally, every time you play someone at your skill level, you should have lower APM then they do - because they are wasting APM and you aren't. Any wasted action is another action you could have done that wouldn't have been wasted - and those habits are very very bad ones to get into.
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Remember day9's mental checklist daily where he was basically playing just fine early game with about 15 apm. The idea of APM is closer to spam whereas the most important thing is going through your actions and making sure you have everything done. BW apm mostly comes from going between all the control groups, rebinding control groups, building out of 20 production facilities at once, and small micro tricks. In the end APM can help, but it isn't the exact gauge of the skill. There were a few of the highest level players that were 80-100 APM and can compete just fine with people of 200 APM, rare situations will see that, but ofc it is possible.
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For some reason I get the message "People with Low APM are cool, High APM players are dumb people trying to show-off" from some of these posts that really (harshly) belittle the need for APM in order to be successful.
Let's make sure that we all understand that High APM that is put to good use, is not bad, non-spam completely innocent and pure APM is good. Don't ignore this, because I feel like I'm talking to a wall when I'm trying to promote the good points of having a healthy APM, while understanding that it can be bad if it's all just spam.
This post is aimed towards the people that are saying that the majority of our replies are completely retarded, and that what they're saying is right.
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I'm just wondering what people think....(i'm pretty sure I know the answer already...but some people think otherwise)
Poll: Does APM = Skill?It is a trend, but there are exceptions (16) 67% No (6) 25% Yes (2) 8% 24 total votes Your vote: Does APM = Skill? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): It is a trend, but there are exceptions
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APM is just another semi useless number. Your APM only have to be as high as the number of actions you have to perform at any given point which means that average APM is a completely useless number, the only thing that matters is peak APM.
I have played many games with a dedication through the years. Broodwar one of them. I can easily pull 300 apm in Broodwar if I want to and I used to do that while spamming a lot. When The sc2 beta was released I continued in my previous tracks and after one month of spamming for 8 hours a day in the beta I got slammed down by carpal tunnel and cubital tunnel syndrome.
That was a wakeup call to me. I rearranged my computerspace more ergonomically, improved my posture, started to exercise muscles that are strained by computer use and started getting up and walking around a bit between each game. But I also stopped spamming. I can if I want to pull 250 average apm in starcraft 2, but I intentionally play a lot lower and I have never felt that there was stuff I could do at 250 that I can't do at 150, and I have never felt that I need to maintain those 150 during the early game or during any time when they are not needed and my health is better for it.
The basic rule for APM would be that unless you are feeling that there is stuff you want to do but don't have the time to do it, then your APM is fine.
Yes spamming will make it easier to ramp up APM in the midgame where you need to stay higher but if you can learn to ramp it up without spamming in the early game, your fingers and wrists will thank you for it. I really recommend that you focus on doing the right actions rather than pressing extra buttons needlessly.
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+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 03:04 EliteAzn wrote:I'm just wondering what people think....(i'm pretty sure I know the answer already...but some people think otherwise) Poll: Does APM = Skill?It is a trend, but there are exceptions (16) 67% No (6) 25% Yes (2) 8% 24 total votes Your vote: Does APM = Skill? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): It is a trend, but there are exceptions
This Poll is basically pointless. APM really does matter if you put it to good use, but it also is easily replicated by a nooblet wanting to look cool. Therefore your poll is pointless because APM does not = skill and everyone knows it. Find someone who is very skillfiul at SCBW and they WILL have high APM. SCBW is highly dependant on muscle memory and speed during late game and even during early or critical stages of the game where quick and accurate mouse clicks and keybinds need to be used to perform attacks. There is no way around it the game is just too mechanically demanding to thrive with low APM. SC2 however is a different story since the interface is much easier to use. How much this affects what APM is crucial to be a good player is yet to be determined i believe.
As far as APM being a "trend" i do not understand since cycling hotkeys and clicks seems to me like a perfectly rational and great way to train muscle memory for when you need it. Every progamer does this and it is a basic training exercize of the pro teams from my understanding.
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I have a constant APM of about 50-60 and got into diamond pretty easily by employing strategy over mass useless clicks. Think there's something to say for that.
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APM is not useful in and of itself - it's the actions which you're performing. Boxing your workers in the beginning, as it does not accomplish anything meaningful, only artificially inflates your functional APM (actions which are meaningful).
Functional APM on the other hand is likely highly correlated with skill, supposing the actions are both meaningful and useful (one could build only workers and mains, micro precisely which mineral field they went to, preventing any dancing, etc, though the viability of this strategy is obviously poor). Therefore one's functional APM is merely the byproduct of executing one's strategy and tactics.
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I'm having a hard time believing that someone that took the time to get C- in ICCUP would be able to run around with 70 apm still.
At that rate you're pretty much just not even trying to execute your actions quickly or efficiently if you're at 70, SC2 isn't even that micro intensive but I don't even think you can be managing your chrono, production, and unit placement with sub-100 apm.
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You know, there used to be a low-APM tournament on WC3 where you are disqualified if you play over 60 APM or something like that. It sounded like fun but I never tried it.
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SC2 is a lot less APM intensive than SC1, but i think there is a certain apm you need to be around to be able to play proficiently. Maybe 120-150~?
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Be aware of your limitations and play around them, IE if you know your APM is dreadfully low for your skill class, for gods sake don't do some phoenix/high templar harras micro intensive play, Go all in baller with 10 collosi and watch your opponent rage as your army required little apm so your macro didn't suffer. Play smart and it can quickly become very little of a limitation, especially as starcraft laddering is far from the competetive scene.
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ive known really good players in bw that dont use control groups and they play with one hand.
Id say you could be top diamond in the US servers if you played for a few months like this.
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I'd say you can get very good with "low" APM, but you can't get anywhere without good multitasking. The two are separate.
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If you can have high APM without it gimping your game (focusing on apm rather than actually doing the right stuff) then you will obviously be able to do things that people with lower apm can't do, its logical. The question is, how do you get high effective APM? Pretty much by knowing your build orders and matchups. The closer to perfection, the higher the APM; this is because you will know what to do and you don't have to actually think about adapting to the moment, but just execution instead. Once you have reached that level of play you can actually "spam" to keep a rythm, before that you are probably gimping yourself.
tl;dr
Higher effective apm due to execution rather than pointless spam is always something good. Spam becomes good once you know your game good enough that it is just a way to keep the rythm going without it hurting your strategy.
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You can only do so much with low APM =)
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A short preface:
First off, I play protoss. I had a poor performance with my placement matches and began in the bronze league. I got to silver pretty quickly and once I did I cruised through it with almost 10 wins in a row. I viewed several of my replays and noticed that I played mostly zerg players.
Now the APM stuff:
With each of those games that I won against zerg I noticed my APM was usually literally half that of my opponent, with one game about a third as much. I certainly agree that a good build, good strategy, and good tactics are much more useful that a high APM. Do you think these players are just spamming actions? Are they doing the wrong actions? Or does zerg require a higher APM than protoss around the same level? By the way my APM averaged in the mid 30s. I probably can't get away with that low an APM for too long when I climb high enough in the leagues. Anyone have thoughts about this?
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Before the last Battle.net reset, I was a Diamond Terran at a rank around 3-10 and my average APMs shown in replays were always lower than 60.
I think, APM is just not so important as it was in SC:BW.
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On July 06 2010 07:57 bakedace wrote:
ive known really good players in bw that dont use control groups and they play with one hand.
Id say you could be top diamond in the US servers if you played for a few months like this.
..define "really good".
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You'll eventually get faster after practicing builds for a period of time.
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Yeah, I have about the same APM as the OP and phase 1 was in upper plat - I think, though, the APM is more just symptomatic of the real thing behind it, which is an active attention and quick focus. While I can spam click things, it really doesn't end up mattering when I'm not really feeling the game atm and end up getting behind on macro anyways.
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On July 05 2010 01:13 ret wrote:
there is no spoon...
Then you will see it is not the APM that bends, it is only yourself.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://collectingtokens.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/and_the_dish.jpg)
